The Guilty !

[Uncle Sam]

http://img30.photobucket.com/albums/v89/bargus/guilty1.jpg

'NUFF SAID !

[HELEX]

Most of them Children or Teenagers, they didnt know what they were doing..... :cantbeli:

So what is your idea about what to do? Kill them all? Sounds clever....

[Uncle Sam]

HELEX...You're an idiot! Is there anything in here that said "kill 'em all" ?

Go lose yourself!

[Nondescript]

Why not burn them and hang them from the same bridge

an eye for an eye

oh and don't forget the pigs blood, lots and lots of pigs blood

[MVSpartan117]

The damn well knew what they were doing!

You don't f-ing mutilate a body with shovel without making a conscience dicesion!

[HELEX]

HELEX...You're an idiot! Is there anything in here that said "kill 'em all" ?

Go lose yourself!

Answer a simple question: What should be done with these children?

[Uncle Sam]

HELEX...You're an idiot! Is there anything in here that said "kill 'em all" ?

Go lose yourself!

Answer a simple question: What should be done with these children?

I see a few children...Children follow. There are many, MANY "adults" in these photo's. Children can be tought to hate.

[Bootneck]

Answer a simple question: What should be done with these children?

Answer a simple question: What does this say about their parents?

[HELEX]

There are 3 "adults" in all those Pictures.


Children can be tought to hate.

Yea, your parents did great work....

And you still didnt answer my Question: What should be done with those children?

[ShadowNeo]

I'm not condoning what happened in any way, but these people have lived much longer under Saddams regime than in the new Iraq.

Its obvious that living under tyranny breeds anger, and in the free Iraq people are expressing this anger, not exactly in the best ways however. It will take a long time to be able to erase the damage Saddams regime has done, perhaps even as long as a generation.

You can't look at this and expect all Iraqi's to simply have a western mentality and sense of morality, you can't change that overnight.

[Uncle Sam]

There are 3 "adults" in all those Pictures.


Children can be tought to hate.

Yea, your parents did great work....

I see a few children. Some teenagers and alot of adults. You assume I hate them for what happened, your'e wrong.

So tell me, A kid comes up to you and shoots you in the face...And as you are laying on the ground bleeding to death, his friends come up and stomp all over you...You unfortunately survive, do you say..."Oh, it was just a some kids, I forgive them." And are they not guilty as much as the one who shot you in the face?

[HELEX]

I see a few children. Some teenagers and alot of adults.

We are talking about the same Picture? The one you posted?

And now answer my Question: What should be done with those children?

[tenda]

I see a few children. Some teenagers and alot of adults.

We are talking about the same Picture? The one you posted?

And now answer my Question: What should be done with those children?
an eye for an eye.......... p-)

[ShadowNeo]

And now answer my Question: What should be done with those children?

What can you do? You can't throw them in jail, or punish them under any "law" that exists there. If you did any of this, you would simply be breeding more hate in another generation.

All you can do, and the most effective thing you can do, is Educate. Educate. Educate.

[Uncle Sam]

I see a few children. Some teenagers and alot of adults.

We are talking about the same Picture? The one you posted?

And now answer my Question: What should be done with those children?

Those "children" need education, they are brainwashed by the adults, who were brainwashed when they were kids. It's a vicious cycle... But the "teenagers" and the "adults"(and I use this term term loosely) need to be "re-trained".

[HELEX]

Those "children" need education, they are brainwashed by the adults, who were brainwashed when they were kids. It's a vicious cycle... But the "teenagers" and the "adults"(and I use this term term loosely) need to be "re-trained".

Cool, isnt "re-trained" another word for brainwashed? :roll:

"These evildoers brainwashed them, we have to do it ourself to rescue them!" :cantbeli:

[Stavka]

I see a few children. Some teenagers and alot of adults.

We are talking about the same Picture? The one you posted?

And now answer my Question: What should be done with those children?
an eye for an eye.......... p-)

yes... yesssss... they musts diessss.... stupid hobbitssessss... my preciousssssssss....

[Fox2]

I'm not condoning what happened in any way, but these people have lived much longer under Saddams regime than in the new Iraq.

Its obvious that living under tyranny breeds anger, and in the free Iraq people are expressing this anger, not exactly in the best ways however. It will take a long time to be able to erase the damage Saddams regime has done, perhaps even as long as a generation.

You can't look at this and expect all Iraqi's to simply have a western mentality and sense of morality, you can't change that overnight.

I disagree with some of your points here, ShadowNeo.

Most Iraqis are not like this, and want us to stay. The group who did this, the people from this city, thrived under Saddam. These were the privileged and those treated well for their loyalty to Saddam. When Saddam's regime fell, they lost the most, because they no longer could oppress others, and no longer got special treatment.

The average Iraqi is not savage or inhuman, they just want to get on with their lives, and they know the Coalition are the only people who are going to help them get there.

The group of people as shown in these pictures, they hate the Coalition and any one who tries to help Iraq as a whole, because it means they lose more power. Every time the Coalition and the civilian contractors fix the electricity, build a new school, or ensure running water, those who were once in control of the Iraqi people lose more and more influence. And it is this ebbing away of influence that drives the leaders of these groups to instigate their subordinates to do things such as this.

[ShadowNeo]

I understand what you mean Fox2, I too believe that not all Iraqis are like this and I do view the majority as welcoming, although I could have made this clearer when posting my views.

[Fox2]

Well, my post was more disagreeing with the reasoning behind the action. These people aren't doing this because they have "vent up frustration" from years of oppression and are releasing it, it is much more malicious. This group was not oppressed, they were exalted and treated well. They were Saddam's "family." They had a vast amount of influence on other Iraqis before the war, and now that's all changed. So, this is not an effect of Saddam's oppression, but rather an effect of Saddam's favoritism of these people, as well as their own greed and envy!

[Fotch]

And now answer my Question: What should be done with those children?

What can you do? You can't throw them in jail, or punish them under any "law" that exists there. If you did any of this, you would simply be breeding more hate in another generation.

All you can do, and the most effective thing you can do, is Educate. Educate. Educate.

Education is all well and good but the Middle East will always be filled with ethnic and religious animosity. Education will not start to touch that society for at least two generations...not at the level of the lowest caste child...and when it does do you really think that it will change the minds of people that are taught from birth that they are the heirs to the Ottoman or Islamic Empires? How do you build a nation from Kurds who hate Sunnis who hate Shia who hate their own aristocracy and power base. All of whom hate the Americans/West (Christians) and Israelis (Jews) when they aren't busy hating and trying to kill their neighboring tribes. There are 2000 years of hatred, betrayal and death in the Middle East. Nothing is going to change that.

Just an opinion...I don't know how to fix it...and I'm not certain any one does.

[Uncle Sam]

Those "children" need education, they are brainwashed by the adults, who were brainwashed when they were kids. It's a vicious cycle... But the "teenagers" and the "adults"(and I use this term term loosely) need to be "re-trained".

Cool, isnt "re-trained" another word for brainwashed? :roll:

"These evildoers brainwashed them, we have to do it ourself to rescue them!" :cantbeli:

I think it is you who's brainwashed.

re·train ( P ) (r-trn)
tr. & intr.v. re·trained, re·train·ing, re·trains

To train or undergo training again

brainwash ( P ) (brnwsh, -wôsh)
tr.v. brain·washed, brain·wash·ing, brain·wash·es

v 1: persuade completely, often through coercion;propaganda 2: submit to brainwashing; indoctrinate forcibly

Not quite the same...

[HELEX]

I disagree with some of your points here, ShadowNeo.

Most Iraqis are not like this, and want us to stay. The group who did this, the people from this city, thrived under Saddam. These were the privileged and those treated well for their loyalty to Saddam. When Saddam's regime fell, they lost the most, because they no longer could oppress others, and no longer got special treatment.

The average Iraqi is not savage or inhuman, they just want to get on with their lives, and they know the Coalition are the only people who are going to help them get there.

The group of people as shown in these pictures, they hate the Coalition and any one who tries to help Iraq as a whole, because it means they lose more power. Every time the Coalition and the civilian contractors fix the electricity, build a new school, or ensure running water, those who were once in control of the Iraqi people lose more and more influence. And it is this ebbing away of influence that drives the leaders of these groups to instigate their subordinates to do things such as this.

I see that a little different, maybe 20% of the Iraqis want you to stay but the vast majority hates you either because they are formen Baathists or the are religious Muslims.

[Uncle Sam]

With friends like HELEX...Who needs enemas.

[Jack Mehoff]

Any ****heads over 16 years of age in that picture should die.

[Fotch]

Any f*** over 16 years of age in that picture should die.

That is all well and good but who gets to decide if it is 16 or 12 or 18? Won't happen anyway...we all know that. Killing them won't change the situation...only breed more animosity. You can't use corporal punishment...same result. Education won't work...not for 20 years and will likely only touch those whom can afford a 'proper' education. Nope...its FUBAR. You can not impose democracy...and you can not change a culture...not in the timeframe that the Western powers are working in.

[Ezra Coli]

These are the Iraqis who profited from Saddam's regime. These Iraqis ran the torure rooms, rape rooms, and carried out the shooting and mass burials. This area is the mannpower of Saddam's brutality. Suni area, many loyalists. Their children are taught to hate the US early. To take your foot and press a spade into a deformed charred human body, as a kid or adult, takes a real lack of decency. Kids know right from wrong, and kids who are not sure about their actions show it well enough in their faces. So what to do? As shown by so many similar world areas where violence and hatred are part of the local culture (this particulkar area is feared by almost ALL other Iraqis), there is a simple solution, and that would be unpopular. Simply destroy the place. Of course the outcry of the international community would be great, after all, most of the UN members still believe the UN and so-called peacekeeping forces are effective. But animals like these people, the future animals they breed and educate in their ways, have shown themselves to be brutal, masochistic, and heartless for 40 years.

A good place for a Moab or two.

I'm sure some some tolerant enlightened ones will flame me for this opinion, being the tolerant ones they are. Flame away.

[Argyll]

Any f*** over 16 years of age in that picture should die.


over the age of sense for me,these wee wankers knew full well their actions,they want to act like adults then they can die like em too.


HELEX...............quit your bleating about them ,they WILL suffer someones wrath,if you don't like go to Fallujah and try preaching to them the evil of their ways.........oh and don't be surprised you suffer the same fate as those PMC,ou've made your anti war/bush statements pretty obvious.......let other make theirs

[ShadowNeo]

If we factor what education these children have received over the years, those who are sixteen will probably have a mental age of around twelve.

Even if it was possible to punish these particular teenagers/children, how would you be able to discern between them?

[Va_Dinger]

Most of them Children or Teenagers, they didnt know what they were doing..... :cantbeli:

So what is your idea about what to do? Kill them all? Sounds clever....

Exactly, kill every last one of the animals in these pictures. Anybody who would do that to another human is barely worth the cost of the bullet to put them down!

[Fotch]

These are the Iraqis who profited from Saddam's regime. These Iraqis ran the torure rooms, rape rooms, and carried out the shooting and mass burials. This area is the mannpower of Saddam's brutality. Suni area, many loyalists. Their children are taught to hate the US early. To take your foot and press a spade into a deformed charred human body, as a kid or adult, takes a real lack of decency. Kids know right from wrong, and kids who are not sure about their actions show it well enough in their faces. So what to do? As shown by so many similar world areas where violence and hatred are part of the local culture (this particulkar area is feared by almost ALL other Iraqis), there is a simple solution, and that would be unpopular. Simply destroy the place. Of course the outcry of the international community would be great, after all, most of the UN members still believe the UN and so-called peacekeeping forces are effective. But animals like these people, the future animals they breed and educate in their ways, have shown themselves to be brutal, masochistic, and heartless for 40 years.

A good place for a Moab or two.

I'm sure some some tolerant enlightened ones will flame me for this opinion, being the tolerant ones they are. Flame away.

A UN Peacekeeping forces on the scale needed to police Iraq is an utter joke. The US will NOT put their commands under UN jurisdiction because they don't want some no-combat-experiene Genral getting US troops killed. And the US would HAVE to be the brunt of the force because they are the only ones big enough to do it. How do you coordinate troops that speak French, English, Russian, Chek, Spanish, German and how ever many other languages properly. They would be a spinless sitting ducks, swimming in a barrel, waiting for some nice Islamic Fundementalist to drive a truck up and blow their headquarter to tiny pieces...then they would all go home...oh wait...that already happened....sorry.

Maybe the only way to win is to become what your enemy is. It worked well for the Spetzna in Afhgan and Chechnya, the US SOG in Liaos/Vietnam and works relatively well for the Isrealis. Kick the press out (FIRST AND FOREMOST!!! Iraq should be redeclared as a Warzone and be put under Martial Law...all civil rights are rebuffed) and do unto them...as they do unto you. They bomb you...you fly a BUFF over that part of the city and level it. They shoot one of yours...you round up those you know/think that are involved and their relatives, destroy their homes, take their money, close their accounts and put them in a nice camp in the middle of the desert. One to make Gitmo look like a Disney Park.

Again...just an opinion...

[M_S]

Kill those who killed, its most likely that none of those shown in the pictures did kill anyone. They might have had some "fun"(bastards!) with the bodies but thats far from killing a person.

[He219]

I see that a little different, maybe 20% of the Iraqis want you to stay but the vast majority hates you either because they are formen Baathists or the are religious Muslims.

Au Contraire, HELIX! The Sunni Muslims constituting Saddam's Baathist Power Base in the Triangle are more reflective of the 20 Percentile, within an Iraqi population comprising of Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish ethnic groups.

The Shiite favor Islamic Law, but by no means wish to see a return to Baathist domination and brutalization. The Kurds are the strongest supporters of the coalition, however their agenda of an independent Kurdistan weighs equally with the religious zealoutry shown by the Shiites.

Thus the Sunni Triangle is the final holdout to democratic reform in Iraq. Their savage barbarism shown yesterday is reflective of the rule the other ethnic groups have been subjected to for around Thirty Years while under Sunni Domination!

We will use the photographic evidence to capture and bring the perpetrators to justice. The Israeli's showed us how to deal with this situation.

We could always use Rule 303 ....

p-)

[HELEX]

Fotch wrote:


Kick the press out (FIRST AND FOREMOST!!! Iraq should be redeclared as a Warzone and be put under Martial Law...all civil rights are rebuffed) and do unto them...as they do unto you.


They bomb you...you fly a BUFF over that part of the city and level it.


They shoot one of yours...you round up those you know/think that are involved and their relatives, destroy their homes, take their money, close their accounts and put them in a nice camp in the middle of the desert. One to make Gitmo look like a Disney Park.

(This would justify everything the SS did in WW2)

Wow, we are at a point here the "Liberators" show their Face :|

[Trigger]

HELEX, go **** yourself

[Fotch]

Kill those who killed, its most likely that none of those shown in the pictures did kill anyone. They might have had some "fun"(bastards!) with the bodies but thats far from killing a person.

And when they see no retribution for their actions??? They WILL do it again! Especially with all the press this is getting and the outrage it has caused. It's called pushing buttons...and whomever is running things over there for the Insurgents knows exactly what he is doing. 21st Century wars are not won on the battlefield, they are won on TV. This was orchestrated. Did you not see the flyers? Public opinion at home at the sight of body bags and 'hung' corpses is the best weapon the Insurgents have.

[M_S]

they should not be killed..thats what i said..they should be put in prison for some time...1 year max

[Fox2]

I see that a little different, maybe 20% of the Iraqis want you to stay but the vast majority hates you either because they are formen Baathists or the are religious Muslims.

Can you back that up? Or is that just a percentage you pulled out of your hat to fit your political agenda?

According to ABC News, a largely LIBERAL media outlet, in a poll released March 17: http://abcnews.go.com/images/pdf/949a2SunniShia.pdf

Most Iraqis (of those polled) on the whole want the Coalition to stay, and believe the Coalition did the right thing.

As I said, it is the SUNNIS that are giving us problems. The Sunnis are the ones that Hussein preferred and Sunnis are the ones who had the most to lose if the regime crumbled. Sunnis are also a minority in Iraq, I'd like to remind you. So, the vast, vast majority of Iraqis are happy with the Coalition's presence.

I have no idea where you are pulling this 20% figure of "all Iraqis" from, but I suspect it is the opposite end from which you speak.


the vast majority hates you either because they are formen Baathists or the are religious Muslims.

The vast majority are not Baathists, infact Baathists are a small minority. Furthermore, the vast majority are NOT EXTREMIST MUSLIMS. When will people understand that?! Not all muslims believe non-muslims to be the "infidel." Infact, most Muslims I've talked to have said the exact opposite, and actually in many ways mirror the way some Christians have become in America: Moderate. Many are of the belief that all roads lead to Heaven and we all worship the same God. So saying that simply because they are Muslims means they must automatically hate Americans or Christians is ignorant, and frankly, quite ridiculous.

For someone who is so fervent against the events in Iraq, you sure know diddly squat about the region.

[Jack Mehoff]

Fotch wrote:


Kick the press out (FIRST AND FOREMOST!!! Iraq should be redeclared as a Warzone and be put under Martial Law...all civil rights are rebuffed) and do unto them...as they do unto you.


They bomb you...you fly a BUFF over that part of the city and level it.


They shoot one of yours...you round up those you know/think that are involved and their relatives, destroy their homes, take their money, close their accounts and put them in a nice camp in the middle of the desert. One to make Gitmo look like a Disney Park.

(This would justify everything the SS did in WW2)

Wow, we are at a point here the "Liberators" show their Face :|

Liberators? I thought you alway refer to us as the invaders you ****ing hypocrite.

[HELEX]

That is a real good source! It says that more than 66% believe Iraq was not liberated. But they didnk ask if they want them to stay.....

And the Kurds are only a minority....

[Fotch]

Fotch wrote:


Kick the press out (FIRST AND FOREMOST!!! Iraq should be redeclared as a Warzone and be put under Martial Law...all civil rights are rebuffed) and do unto them...as they do unto you.


They bomb you...you fly a BUFF over that part of the city and level it.


They shoot one of yours...you round up those you know/think that are involved and their relatives, destroy their homes, take their money, close their accounts and put them in a nice camp in the middle of the desert. One to make Gitmo look like a Disney Park.

(This would justify everything the SS did in WW2)

Wow, we are at a point here the "Liberators" show their Face :|

Welcome to reality vs the comfortable computer chair you are at Helex. War isn't a game or a sport. Bringing peace, democracy and freedom to the Middle East is going to take blood, sweat and a lot of tears. If Iraq is to truly become a democratic state with equality and freedom for all...those freedoms will have to be stepped on for a time so that the ends may justify the means. See my signature if you think I do not know from where I speak... . I suspect that you are one of these lovely liberals that would much rather live with the status quo and watch as the Hussein clan and the like...world over...continued to rape and pillage their contries for its own benefit. That status quo ended Sept 11. Welcome to the New World Helex…those days are over. No tyrant will be safe. No government or group that threatens your freedom and safety will be safe. As long as we keep those like you out of government... . Fortunately, people are generally smarter and more in touch with reality than you.

[Maine Finn]

I know! Let's send in the 5th Infantry.
http://www.mainememory.net/user/imcache/Guest.6784full_page.JPG

woot

Anyway.... back to whatever it was you're bickering about....

:roll:

[Fox2]

That is a real good source! It says that more than 66% believe Iraq was not liberated. But they didnk ask if they want them to stay.....

And the Kurds are only a minority....

It says 66% of SUNNIS believe that, yah dumby! Not 66% of all Iraqis! Didn't I just go over this?!

The Kurds are only a minority he says...The Sunnies are the smallest religious minority amongst the Iraqi Arabs! Roughly 35% of Iraq's Arab population is Sunni! The rest are...you guessed it...All Shiites! Now, please read that poll again and tell me what it says the Shiites say! Actually read the damned thing.

C'mon, I know you must have some intelligence in there. Use it!

[fdt]

I see a few children. Some teenagers and alot of adults.

We are talking about the same Picture? The one you posted?

And now answer my Question: What should be done with those children?Answer is astonishingly simple: The same thing that was done to German and Japanese children in 1945 and following years...
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/images/berlin5.jpg
http://a.abcnews.com/media/World/images/nm_saddams_cub_030117_nh.jpg

[Fox2]

I know! Let's send in the 5th Infantry.
http://www.mainememory.net/user/imcache/Guest.6784full_page.JPG

woot

Anyway.... back to whatever it was you're bickering about....

:roll:

Sorry if this comes off as rude, but what exactly does this have to do with anything?

[He219]

Well said, Fotch!
:D


That is a real good source! It says that more than 66% believe Iraq was not liberated. But they didnk ask if they want them to stay.....

And the Kurds are only a minority....
Either I don't know how to read that PDF or it says that 66% of SUNNIS believe the 'Invasion Humiliated Iraq more than it Liberated it'.

That's a far cry from writing 66% of Iraqis believe Iraq was not liberated.

It also writes that 12% of Shia and 29% of Sunni want coalition forces to Leave now. 36% of Sunnis believe attacks on Coalition forces is acceptibe, triple that of any other group in Iraq.

Learn how to read.

Iraqi Demographics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Iraq) (From Wikipedia):

Arab 75%-80%, Kurdish 15%-20%, Turkoman, Assyrian or other 5%
(Shi'a 60%-65%, Sunni 32%-37%), Christian or other 3%
Most Iraqi Muslims are members of the Shiitess (Shi'a), but there is a large Sunni Muslim population as well, made up of both Arabs and Kurds.

[Maine Finn]

I know! Let's send in the 5th Infantry.
http://www.mainememory.net/user/imcache/Guest.6784full_page.JPG

woot

Anyway.... back to whatever it was you're bickering about....

:roll:

Sorry if this comes off as rude, but what exactly does this have to do with anything?


Absolutely nothing.

It was a pathetic attempt to lighten up this thread....

Sorry, I'll confine myself to the Off-Topic Section and my Fort Preble thread - which, I've noted, has been looked at loads of times but little else. I don't have any idea what I'm talking about here.


~Emily

[Threelions]

Welcome to the New World Helex…those days are over. No tyrant will be safe. No government or group that threatens your freedom and safety will be safe. As long as we keep those like you out of government... . Fortunately, people are generally smarter and more in touch with reality than you.

I will tell you what, my chair in front of my computer is very comfortable, and im sure your high horse is just as comfortable.

Noraid threatens the lives of people in england and ulster all the time by funding IRA terrorists, yet NORAID is still allowed to operate and collect "donations" in america daily.

In Zimbabwe terror rules. Megabe beats, murders, and expels people on a daily bases yet nothing, not even embargos, are carried out by this wonderful new world.

Should i continue? you may disagree with helex but he does have a very valid point. All this talk of an eye for an eye, bull dozing mosques, setting up "camps", yadda yadda yadda, does sound alot like the SS. Keeping people like helex out of government would simply create a nation in which democracy has failed. The ability to question, disagree, and voice opposition in government is the essence of democray. Mob rule is for the wild west posses, not international dealings.

It is a sad state of affairs that anyone has to die in iraq for a lie perpetrated by several governments. I feel sorry for the families of those killed.

Cheers

[Uncle Sam]

*delete*

[WolverineBlue]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040401/ts_nm/iraq_dc

[Uncle Sam]

Welcome to the New World Helex…those days are over. No tyrant will be safe. No government or group that threatens your freedom and safety will be safe. As long as we keep those like you out of government... . Fortunately, people are generally smarter and more in touch with reality than you.

I will tell you what, my chair in front of my computer is very comfortable, and im sure your high horse is just as comfortable.

Noraid threatens the lives of people in england and ulster all the time by funding IRA terrorists, yet NORAID is still allowed to operate and collect "donations" in america daily.

In Zimbabwe terror rules. Megabe beats, murders, and expels people on a daily bases yet nothing, not even embargos, are carried out by this wonderful new world.

Should i continue? you may disagree with helex but he does have a very valid point. All this talk of an eye for an eye, bull dozing mosques, setting up "camps", yadda yadda yadda, does sound alot like the SS. Keeping people like helex out of government would simply create a nation in which democracy has failed. The ability to question, disagree, and voice opposition in government is the essence of democray. Mob rule is for the wild west posses, not international dealings.

It is a sad state of affairs that anyone has to die in iraq for a lie perpetrated by several governments. I feel sorry for the families of those killed.

Cheers

People have opinions, just as you do, and they voice their opinions in here. But posting opinions and posting facts are two different things. When the two merge, you should at least back up your findings, or they will get skewed. HELEX has a fond way of skewing fact and opinion. No one here said he was wrong for feeling the way he does. And yes, his feelings coincide with others here.

[Uncle Sam]

*delete*...

[He219]

*Moved to the General Discussion Forum*

p-)

[DPGLAW]

Someone on another thread had a wonderful idea about what to do with these goddamn ragheads.....we should do what the Russians did in Grozny...surrond the city so that NONE of them can leave and just level the city with Artillery, bombs, and rockets. Kill every single last one of them. Women, Children, old men, men, absolutely everyone. Just make sure that when we are done there is not a single living organism in the town. If other countries don't like us, too f'in bad. deal with it.

Or in the alternative, we could just drop a few MOABs on the town in the middle of the night while everyone is asleep. I mean it's not like the town is of any value to anyone except terrorists.

Now I know that this is not reality and will unfortunatly never happen because people are too politically correct to do the right thing, but I can hope.....We probably won't do anything about what those ragheads did....I am sure that I will get **** for this because I said we need to kill everyone, including women, children, babies, everything...but If you look at who took part in this horrible murder and torture, they were mostly kids. so if they can play the game then they should die for it as well....If you play with fire you will get burned.

[Fotch]

Welcome to the New World Helex…those days are over. No tyrant will be safe. No government or group that threatens your freedom and safety will be safe. As long as we keep those like you out of government... . Fortunately, people are generally smarter and more in touch with reality than you.

I will tell you what, my chair in front of my computer is very comfortable, and im sure your high horse is just as comfortable.

Noraid threatens the lives of people in england and ulster all the time by funding IRA terrorists, yet NORAID is still allowed to operate and collect "donations" in america daily.

In Zimbabwe terror rules. Megabe beats, murders, and expels people on a daily bases yet nothing, not even embargos, are carried out by this wonderful new world.

Should i continue? you may disagree with helex but he does have a very valid point. All this talk of an eye for an eye, bull dozing mosques, setting up "camps", yadda yadda yadda, does sound alot like the SS. Keeping people like helex out of government would simply create a nation in which democracy has failed. The ability to question, disagree, and voice opposition in government is the essence of democray. Mob rule is for the wild west posses, not international dealings.

It is a sad state of affairs that anyone has to die in iraq for a lie perpetrated by several governments. I feel sorry for the families of those killed.

Cheers

Here Here! It is sad that anyone has to die anywhere from anything other than old age...I am in complete concerance with you. But it isn't 2460 and we don't live in the Star Trek Universe. There are simply some terrible people in the world. Zimbabwae, Algeria, Congo, North Korea, Iran, Saudi, Syrai...to name a few, will all see their day in the spotlight. One battle at a time...fight the fight that can be won now...then...and only then...move onto the next.

Talk of keeping Helex out of government was meant in the most democratic of ways...the people (I included) will not vote for 'his' ideals when their very way of life is threatened. And do the research...it is threatened.

Talk of camps and bombing Iraq into the stone age is simply that: Talk. The world has not seen true conviction and determination to fight and utterly destroy an 'Axis of Evil' since WWII. Even now, true conviction is not being shown in Iraq otherwise another 1 Million troops would be on the ground busting down doors and taking names. The world is globalized and doing the things that likely need to be done can not be done, due to them showing up on CNN, BBC and Aljezera for your 6AM coffee. I have friends in Iraq and Afghan and the battle is being fouhgt as well as it can be (very well in many cases...and those stories will never show up on CNN). In the end it comes down to conviction. Do the western nations' populations have the conviction to see it through...or will the conviction of the Islamic Fundementalists win out? I hope we are strong but our track record is anything but steller.[/i]

[Tane Angle]

OK...first off, some people on here might want to loosen up about responding to "kill them all" comments. Yes, those comments are unrealistic, but it is sometimes healthy to make such comments, provided that the speakers remember that they are not viable options. But it does remain a way to get the emotions out, to say such things.

It's like saying "I hate brussel sprouts." The speaker probably doesn't actually hate brussel sprouts, but it's a speech device. There's no need to point out the error of the speaker's comment everytime. I think most of them know that the comment is unrealistic, no need to preach to the choir, even if the choir is being unrealistic temporarily.

No offense to anyone, but here's a news flash: I don't know if anyone has the answers. I don't have the solutions. The other veterans, for all their wisdom and knowledge, probably don't either. Army Chief-of-Staff Pete Schoomaker, a counter-terrorism expert who I respect tremendously, probably doesn't have all the answers. Let's not take every single comment to be a serious one. While discussion is good, we probably won't find the answers on this thread. That's not a dig on this thread, the site, or the people here either though. We personally don't have to have the answers.

As always, I do not mean to offend anyone with any of my posts, and I apologize in advance if I miswrite and do offend anyone. Have a good one all, and just some thoughts...

[Fox2]

Thanks for keeping it in perspective, Tane, as always.

All this discussion, I think, is a way for our minds to accept things and absorb the information. To be honest, nothing any of us ever says on any of these threads will matter in the long-run, it will not dictate policy or action. But it is good, as humans, to discuss and through debate allow our own minds to absorb the material. Sometimes as I write on the many interesting discussions here, I learn new things about myself and my outlook, simply by putting ideas down in black and white. I think that helps me tremendously, personally. What everyone gets out of these discussions is up to each individual to decide and act on.

As always, just my opinion.

[Fotch]

Thanks for keeping it in perspective, Tane, as always.

All this discussion, I think, is a way for our minds to accept things and absorb the information. To be honest, nothing any of us ever says on any of these threads will matter in the long-run, it will not dictate policy or action. But it is good, as humans, to discuss and through debate allow our own minds to absorb the material. Sometimes as I write on the many interesting discussions here, I learn new things about myself and my outlook, simply by putting ideas down in black and white. I think that helps me tremendously, personally. What everyone gets out of these discussions is up to each individual to decide and act on.

As always, just my opinion.

Any knowledge transfer is better than NO knowledge transfer :D

...heck...sometimes I'll even change sides on an argument I start just to keep myself honest and hone the debating skillz....

[Uncle Sam]

Thanks for keeping it in perspective, Tane, as always.

All this discussion, I think, is a way for our minds to accept things and absorb the information. To be honest, nothing any of us ever says on any of these threads will matter in the long-run, it will not dictate policy or action. But it is good, as humans, to discuss and through debate allow our own minds to absorb the material. Sometimes as I write on the many interesting discussions here, I learn new things about myself and my outlook, simply by putting ideas down in black and white. I think that helps me tremendously, personally. What everyone gets out of these discussions is up to each individual to decide and act on.

As always, just my opinion.

Any knowledge transfer is better than NO knowledge transfer :D

...heck...sometimes I'll even change sides on an argument I start just to keep myself honest and hone the debating skillz....

...heck...c'mon! :lol:

[TALOS]

(This would justify everything the SS did in WW2)

Wow, we are at a point here the "Liberators" show their Face :|
Just remember Helex, the people in this forum arent the liberators, they are forum members discussing something that pissed them off. They have no more power or influence then you do. They are venting.

[Fotch]

Thanks for keeping it in perspective, Tane, as always.

All this discussion, I think, is a way for our minds to accept things and absorb the information. To be honest, nothing any of us ever says on any of these threads will matter in the long-run, it will not dictate policy or action. But it is good, as humans, to discuss and through debate allow our own minds to absorb the material. Sometimes as I write on the many interesting discussions here, I learn new things about myself and my outlook, simply by putting ideas down in black and white. I think that helps me tremendously, personally. What everyone gets out of these discussions is up to each individual to decide and act on.

As always, just my opinion.

Any knowledge transfer is better than NO knowledge transfer :D

...heck...sometimes I'll even change sides on an argument I start just to keep myself honest and hone the debating skillz....

...heck...c'mon! :lol:

:D
LOL!

Momma brought this mormon boy up well...<GRIN>
...it's all good though...Dad was an atheist...so I have some 'bad' in me :backhand:

[MK133]

Here is part of a post in the Tactical Forums from an Operator who has done some work for Blackwater.


One of the 4 contractors killed in Fallujah, Iraq yesterday was a former SEAL. The others had Army SF background. The families of the dead men have requested their names withheld from the public at this time. Anyone with "the scoop" is asked to refrain from posting names in a public place. Local newspaper reports claim 3 former SEALs were killed and this is not correct.

Link to thread http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000824.html

[HELEX]

Welcome to reality vs the comfortable computer chair you are at Helex. War isn't a game or a sport. Bringing peace, democracy and freedom to the Middle East is going to take blood, sweat and a lot of tears. If Iraq is to truly become a democratic state with equality and freedom for all...those freedoms will have to be stepped on for a time so that the ends may justify the means. See my signature if you think I do not know from where I speak... . I suspect that you are one of these lovely liberals that would much rather live with the status quo and watch as the Hussein clan and the like...world over...continued to rape and pillage their contries for its own benefit. That status quo ended Sept 11. Welcome to the New World Helex…those days are over. No tyrant will be safe. No government or group that threatens your freedom and safety will be safe. As long as we keep those like you out of government... . Fortunately, people are generally smarter and more in touch with reality than you.

I am willing to do all what is needed to make this World a safer and better place, but this doesnt include invading unrelated countrys because of their oil reserves. Im ready to spend and see a lot of blood, but not for lies and greed. http://www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=5

You are blind.

[Uncle Sam]

Mom=Mormon....Dad=Athiest....Fotch=mixed up.... :lol: kiddin...

[TALOS]

Welcome to reality vs the comfortable computer chair you are at Helex. War isn't a game or a sport. Bringing peace, democracy and freedom to the Middle East is going to take blood, sweat and a lot of tears. If Iraq is to truly become a democratic state with equality and freedom for all...those freedoms will have to be stepped on for a time so that the ends may justify the means. See my signature if you think I do not know from where I speak... . I suspect that you are one of these lovely liberals that would much rather live with the status quo and watch as the Hussein clan and the like...world over...continued to rape and pillage their contries for its own benefit. That status quo ended Sept 11. Welcome to the New World Helex…those days are over. No tyrant will be safe. No government or group that threatens your freedom and safety will be safe. As long as we keep those like you out of government... . Fortunately, people are generally smarter and more in touch with reality than you.

I am willing to do all what is needed to make this World a safer and better place, but this doesnt include invading unrelated countrys because of their oil reserves. Im ready to spend and see a lot of blood, but not for lies and greed. http://www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=5

You are blind.
Thats your opinion, and others have theirs, and I would assume no matter what the US did you would fall back on "blood for oil" or some other excuse to not have to bother "spending " that blood.

[DPGLAW]

Man....after reading HELEX's posts, I now kind of wish that they would send him to the Sunni Triangle and let the ragheads have their way with him....he would certainly deserve it...since you seem to think that what those rags did was excuseable you should get it done it you...then mabye they can get that education you were talking about...they can learn anatomy from your body

[SeanR]

WTF is up with that Oil Reserve ****?

I people cheering because men have died a humiliating death. It aint right. I don't get up and sing when I see a picture of a dead Iraqi. If some kids ever **** with my dead body like that, ya'll better kick that kid's ass!

*Unclesam, thanks for my new wallpaper! :lol:

[Fotch]

Welcome to reality vs the comfortable computer chair you are at Helex. War isn't a game or a sport. Bringing peace, democracy and freedom to the Middle East is going to take blood, sweat and a lot of tears. If Iraq is to truly become a democratic state with equality and freedom for all...those freedoms will have to be stepped on for a time so that the ends may justify the means. See my signature if you think I do not know from where I speak... . I suspect that you are one of these lovely liberals that would much rather live with the status quo and watch as the Hussein clan and the like...world over...continued to rape and pillage their contries for its own benefit. That status quo ended Sept 11. Welcome to the New World Helex…those days are over. No tyrant will be safe. No government or group that threatens your freedom and safety will be safe. As long as we keep those like you out of government... . Fortunately, people are generally smarter and more in touch with reality than you.

I am willing to do all what is needed to make this World a safer and better place, but this doesnt include invading unrelated countrys because of their oil reserves. Im ready to spend and see a lot of blood, but not for lies and greed. http://www.smiliemania.de/smilie.php?smile_ID=5

You are blind.

Blah Blah Blah...Go talk to ELF or Greenpeace or whatever peace-nick group you gripe at. You are not going to get any sympathy here. Are the Coalition there because there is oil. Bet your a**. Are the Coalition there because that oil was being used to subvert Coalition goals world wide through funding and basing Islamic Fundamentalists. Bet your a**. Are the Coalition there because that oil was being used to keep an entire population in slavery and misery. Bet your a**. Foreign borders be damned. The Coalition will get to the poor nations once the richer once are brought into the fold and under control. If you want to change the world go petition your governemnt to invade North Korea...we'll see you there next year....till them....zziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiipppp it... :D

[Jack Mehoff]

HELEX is probably the same asshole who yells bloody murderers when U.S. troops FF Iraqis policemen.

[SeanR]

ditto.

[MK133]

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a4rjl7V.kYq0&refer=us

``We will be back in Fallujah,'' Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt said today in Baghdad about the U.S. Marines who operate in the area, according to a transcript. ``It will be at the time and the place of our choosing. We will hunt down the criminals. We will kill them or we will capture them. And we will pacify Fallujah.''

[mustamato]

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000103&sid=a4rjl7V.kYq0&refer=us

``We will be back in Fallujah,'' Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt said today in Baghdad about the U.S. Marines who operate in the area, according to a transcript. ``It will be at the time and the place of our choosing. We will hunt down the criminals. We will kill them or we will capture them. And we will pacify Fallujah.''

Sounds like a great way to increase the hate towards the Americans. I agree
with what Argyll said earlier, just leave the town and don´t let anyone in our
out without checking each individuals cargo.

[HELEX]

Welcome to reality vs the comfortable computer chair you are at Helex.

And related to that: Welcome to the reality that you are not Liberaters or even welcome.

[Merik]

Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out.

[TALOS]

Welcome to reality vs the comfortable computer chair you are at Helex.

And related to that: Welcome to the reality that you are not Liberaters or even welcome.
.... in Fallujah, the seat of Saddams greatest supporters and the wealthy benefactors of his tyranny. I really dont think it matters that they hate the Americans, they hated them before the war so has nothin to do with that.

[Fotch]

Welcome to reality vs the comfortable computer chair you are at Helex.

And related to that: Welcome to the reality that you are not Liberaters or even welcome.

Welcome or not...we're there to stay well the rest of the side-lined 'Super' powers and their miserable exuses for militaries sit on the side lines.
Russia: I can understand...they have enough Islamic Fundemetalist problems to deal with and their still rebuilding. Give them 10 years and Lord help those poor Fundementalists....
France: Whatever...go sink a Greenpeace boat...or better yet...go fix the mess you made of Africa.
Germany: I used to have a lot of respect for the German military but their government has become so isolationist it is scary.
The rest of Europe (sans the Allies of course): Go fly a kite...an go by your oil from some other expensive middle east producer...

We can get busy Liberating once the Coalition has a nice safe, secure, cheap source of oil.

[Alfons]

Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out.

http://home.t-online.de/home/emmerling-gfc/other/scherz/thanks4info.gif

Shame on you! You all live in countries whose constitution roots in christian belief! Exspecially all of you who try to defend the President of the United States should keep in mind that this man is said to be highly religious.
Well. The question is: WTF are you talking about bloody revenge, violence and counter-force? Is this in Christis mind? This is just f*cking ignorance, stupidity, arrogancy and impotency!
But what should we Europeans expect from the Americans whose High-School-students ask exchange-students (born 1984!) if they took part at WW2? rofl

[Uncle Sam]

Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out.

http://home.t-online.de/home/emmerling-gfc/other/scherz/thanks4info.gif

Shame on you! You all live in countries whose constitution roots in christian belief! Exspecially all of you who try to defend the President of the United States should keep in mind that this man is said to be highly religious.
Well. The question is: WTF are you talking about bloody revenge, violence and counter-force? Is this in Christis mind? This is just f*cking ignorance, stupidity, arrogancy and impotency!
But what should we Europeans expect from the Americans whose High-School-students ask exchange-students (born 1984!) if they took part at WW2? rofl

Remember one thing...Not all Americans are religious.

[Alfons]

Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out.

http://home.t-online.de/home/emmerling-gfc/other/scherz/thanks4info.gif

Shame on you! You all live in countries whose constitution roots in christian belief! Exspecially all of you who try to defend the President of the United States should keep in mind that this man is said to be highly religious.
Well. The question is: WTF are you talking about bloody revenge, violence and counter-force? Is this in Christis mind? This is just f*cking ignorance, stupidity, arrogancy and impotency!
But what should we Europeans expect from the Americans whose High-School-students ask exchange-students (born 1984!) if they took part at WW2? rofl

Remember one thing...Not all Americans are religious.

You're damn right! I would even go that far and say: Nearly every American is a pseudo-christ.
Pray'n'Kill! All hail, McBush!

[Fotch]

Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out.

http://home.t-online.de/home/emmerling-gfc/other/scherz/thanks4info.gif

Shame on you! You all live in countries whose constitution roots in christian belief! Exspecially all of you who try to defend the President of the United States should keep in mind that this man is said to be highly religious.
Well. The question is: WTF are you talking about bloody revenge, violence and counter-force? Is this in Christis mind? This is just f*cking ignorance, stupidity, arrogancy and impotency!
But what should we Europeans expect from the Americans whose High-School-students ask exchange-students (born 1984!) if they took part at WW2? rofl

Please give it a rest. Without the USA (I'm Canadian so do even think aoubt coming down on my education!!!) you'd be writing this response in German and singing "Deutschland, Deutschland ueber Alles ..." every morning. Bitterness at having your lands GIVEN back to you is getting a little over the top...

[Haiw]

Please give it a rest. Without the USA (I'm Canadian so do even think aoubt coming down on my education!!!) you'd be writing this response in German and singing "Deutschland, Deutschland ueber Alles ..." every morning. Bitterness at having your lands GIVEN back to you is getting a little over the top...
Actually....no. And don't say I'm gonna have to point out the factual incorrectness of your post.

[Fotch]

Please give it a rest. Without the USA (I'm Canadian so do even think aoubt coming down on my education!!!) you'd be writing this response in German and singing "Deutschland, Deutschland ueber Alles ..." every morning. Bitterness at having your lands GIVEN back to you is getting a little over the top...
Actually....no. And don't say I'm gonna have to point out the factual incorrectness of your post.

Ok. :lol:

[zachary harten]

We got our selves into a mess (U.S.A.)... but that does not justify what those damn bastard children did! They need to die! I want to kill ALL evil so that my children won't have the problems of today. Death is asking for them. I will let myself burn in hell for them to burn alive... rofl

[zachary harten]

Another thing, you Euro's are our friends lets not argue.

[Uncle Sam]

Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out.

http://home.t-online.de/home/emmerling-gfc/other/scherz/thanks4info.gif

Shame on you! You all live in countries whose constitution roots in christian belief! Exspecially all of you who try to defend the President of the United States should keep in mind that this man is said to be highly religious.
Well. The question is: WTF are you talking about bloody revenge, violence and counter-force? Is this in Christis mind? This is just f*cking ignorance, stupidity, arrogancy and impotency!
But what should we Europeans expect from the Americans whose High-School-students ask exchange-students (born 1984!) if they took part at WW2? rofl

Remember one thing...Not all Americans are religious.

You're damn right! I would even go that far and say: Nearly every American is a pseudo-christ.
Pray'n'Kill! All hail, McBush!

C'Mon! Get over your anti-bush rhetoric. And don't start a war.

[zachary harten]

Sure, lets pull out like we did in Somalia! Lets present the image of the U.S. being a weak nation! We sure can't kill a couple of cowards who only come out to play when the odds are in thier favor... :fork: ALL SARCASM!

[Alfons]

Please give it a rest. Without the USA (I'm Canadian so do even think aoubt coming down on my education!!!) you'd be writing this response in German and singing "Deutschland, Deutschland ueber Alles ..." every morning. Bitterness at having your lands GIVEN back to you is getting a little over the top...

Oh wait! I don't want to be ungrateful to be freed from Hitler! But see, I even don't want to be ungrateful to Hitler. Without him German people wouldn't have been pushed to have a critical refurbishment of history and a critical look on actual policy after the end of the Third Reich. A capability that most Americans obviously lost (or never possessed). Keywords: undifferentiated, monochrome mentality. :hug:

[zachary harten]

Merik is right... KILL 'EM ALL, LET GOD SORT 'EM OUT!!!

[zachary harten]

Not directed to Alfons (last post) :hug: But the U.S. needs to take action.

[Uncle Sam]

Please give it a rest. Without the USA (I'm Canadian so do even think aoubt coming down on my education!!!) you'd be writing this response in German and singing "Deutschland, Deutschland ueber Alles ..." every morning. Bitterness at having your lands GIVEN back to you is getting a little over the top...

Oh wait! I don't want to be ungrateful to be freed from Hitler! But see, I even don't want to be ungrateful to Hitler. Without him German people wouldn't have been pushed to have a critical refurbishment of history and a critical look on actual policy after the end of the Third Reich. A capability that most Americans obviously lost (or never possessed). Keywords: undifferentiated, monochrome mentality. :hug:

Like I said..."Don't start a war"...

[zachary harten]

Too late... :lol:

[Beowulf]

Alfons you're getting started on the wrong foot....

[Alfons]

Alfons you're getting started on the wrong foot....

May I have started with some pictures of military stuff?

[Uncle Sam]

Please give it a rest. Without the USA (I'm Canadian so do even think aoubt coming down on my education!!!) you'd be writing this response in German and singing "Deutschland, Deutschland ueber Alles ..." every morning. Bitterness at having your lands GIVEN back to you is getting a little over the top...

Oh wait! I don't want to be ungrateful to be freed from Hitler! But see, I even don't want to be ungrateful to Hitler. Without him German people wouldn't have been pushed to have a critical refurbishment of history and a critical look on actual policy after the end of the Third Reich. A capability that most Americans obviously lost (or never possessed). Keywords: undifferentiated, monochrome mentality. :hug:

You get this locked , and, Uncle Sam is REALLY gonna be pissed !!!

[Fotch]

Alfons you're getting started on the wrong foot....

Ja..."Hitler was the best of things. Hitler was the worst of things." is hardly what I would call a profoundly intelligent statement. Come on Alfons give us your theory on the good, the bad and the ugly for our least favorite German... :roll:

[Beowulf]

Alfons you're getting started on the wrong foot....

May I have started with some pictures of military stuff?

things have been a bit rough lately, and we're going through some "management strategy" changes. :D

Try and avoid disparaging comments against nations not based in fact, as well as broad negative generalizations.

Positive generalizations are fine...e.g. "Fat people are jolly."

[Fotch]

Alfons you're getting started on the wrong foot....

May I have started with some pictures of military stuff?

things have been a bit rough lately, and we're going through some "management strategy" changes. :D

Try and avoid disparaging comments against nations not based in fact, as well as broad negative generalizations.

Positive generalizations are fine...e.g. "Fat people are jolly."

I'm all over that like a "Fat kid to a Smartie"....does that mean no shots at the French???!!! Come on!!!...it's like a North American Tradition to take shots at the French!!!

[Maine Finn]

I'm all over that like a "Fat kid to a Smartie"....does that mean no shots at the French???!!! Come on!!!...it's like a North American Tradition to take shots at the French!!!

Some traditions are best broken.


~Emily

[Beowulf]

Alfons you're getting started on the wrong foot....

May I have started with some pictures of military stuff?

things have been a bit rough lately, and we're going through some "management strategy" changes. :D

Try and avoid disparaging comments against nations not based in fact, as well as broad negative generalizations.

Positive generalizations are fine...e.g. "Fat people are jolly."

I'm all over that like a "Fat kid to a Smartie"....does that mean no shots at the French???!!! Come on!!!...it's like a North American Tradition to take shots at the French!!!

lol maybe if you finish your homework first....

[mocking_loudly_died]

Look at the pictures, find the people, slot the people.
On an interesting note I watched this taking place on a TV in the local video shop which is run by a Muslim. Not only was he very angry about what we were seeing, he straight up told me the Americans should go medieval on their ass's.

[Fotch]

Alfons you're getting started on the wrong foot....

May I have started with some pictures of military stuff?

things have been a bit rough lately, and we're going through some "management strategy" changes. :D

Try and avoid disparaging comments against nations not based in fact, as well as broad negative generalizations.

Positive generalizations are fine...e.g. "Fat people are jolly."

I'm all over that like a "Fat kid to a Smartie"....does that mean no shots at the French???!!! Come on!!!...it's like a North American Tradition to take shots at the French!!!

lol maybe if you finish your homework first....

Mate,
You've got the wrong person. I haven't had homework in 10 years. There are a lot of kiddies on the board. I certainly am not one of them.

[Maine Finn]

Then stop acting like it.

Speaking of homework, there's a bit of that delightful stuff waiting for me to finish. I better do it, as it's due tomorrow.

[Fotch]

Look at the pictures, find the people, slot the people.
On an interesting note I watched this taking place on a TV in the local video shop which is run by a Muslim. Not only was he very angry about what we were seeing, he straight up told me the Americans should go medieval on their ass's.

I've got a couple of Muslim friends and every last one of them thinks the Coallition is doing the right thing (though some of the Palestinians friends wish they would solve the Palistine issue first). I haven't spoken to them since this happend but I am certain that they are horrified. Sept 11 they shut down the building that we worked at and a bunch of us went for coffee at my place to watch the news. One of my Muslim friends was in tears for the entire time he was there. It was very moving. It's like all things...you have to judge the individual...not the group. Though I myself fall into that trap now and again.

[Fotch]

Then stop acting like it.

Speaking of homework, there's a bit of that delightful stuff waiting for me to finish. I better do it, as it's due tomorrow.

ta ta...get that done before mommy lays a spanking on you. woot

[Maine Finn]

Then stop acting like it.

Speaking of homework, there's a bit of that delightful stuff waiting for me to finish. I better do it, as it's due tomorrow.

ta ta...get that done before mommy lays a spanking on you. woot

She can't... she's half a state distant. The only one I have to answer to is ME. And since I want to make Dean's List, I better do it.

[Fotch]

Then stop acting like it.

Speaking of homework, there's a bit of that delightful stuff waiting for me to finish. I better do it, as it's due tomorrow.

ta ta...get that done before mommy lays a spanking on you. woot

She can't... she's half a state distant. The only one I have to answer to is ME. And since I want to make Dean's List, I better do it.

What's your major/minor?

[Maine Finn]

CJ.

After I'm done, I want to go back for PM degree.

And I never liked school.

:D

[Fotch]

CJ.

After I'm done, I want to go back for PM degree.

And I never liked school.

:D

I'm sorry...been a long day...CJ?

PM? Project Management?

[talib_killa34]

Yeah, short of killing all the first born males in the city ( :| )...something we cannot just go out and do, and are not going to do...obviously since they are children "bystanders" we cannot lay a finger on them.

Nevermind the fact that these same kids are there; following our soldiers and Marines around, asking for things, getting candy and things from them.

The simple question that was posed by our friend Helex is not one easy to answer. There is no easy solution (no 24 hour fixes) that the whole world expects that can solve Iraqi poblems. Decades more will have to pass.

No amount of people's justifying that atrocity will take the sting and hurt from the families of the victims away. I suppose if you feel this is the Iraqi's only means of "release" or that they can kill Americans, "because American's kill us every day" then by all means feel that way.

Notice, as in Somalia, there was no large scale levelling of any city afterwards. Kinda says something doesn't it? :|

[Maine Finn]

CJ = Criminal Justice
PM = Paramedicine

The PM degree depends, of course, on whether or not I have the time. I plan on going into the Guard after I graduate.

[Yard Ape]

The attack on Iraq was a Crime, nothing else.
But the attack is over. Iraq is defeated, and it would be a crime now not to rebuild it. Regardless of you opinion of the war, we can not go into the past and make it never happen. It did happen, and now the military & reconstruction efforts must be seen through to completion.


This was a heinous act perpetrated by a mob that had no political motive whatsoever. It was simply bloodlust. Mob mentality taken to an animalistic extreme.
Sadly, while the majority was just a mob, I suspect there were organizers with specific strategic goals in mind. If they can destabilize reconstruction efforts & fan the flames of hate, they will hope to drag the US into its own Chechnya. Such a turn of events would make Iraq unwinnable. This does not prohibit increased military presence and security measures.


Fallujah will suffer over this, one way or another
Despite this mob, which showed itself to be a group of animals, Coalition forces must remain firm & fair. The leadership must retain tight control of their soldiers. Reprisals will just mean that the murderers have won.


kill em' all.....those f. bastard's........ :bash: :bash: :bash:
Kill em all, let god sort em outThen the murderers would win.


They should have called in a couple of A-10s and turned that whole street into a crater. This would only produce more terrorists.


an eye for an eye.......... p-)
Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out.
an eye for an eye

oh and don't forget the pigs blood, lots and lots of pigs bloodThen the terrorists win.


Welcome to reality vs the comfortable computer chair you are at Helex. War isn't a game or a sport. Bringing peace, democracy and freedom to the Middle East is going to take blood, sweat and a lot of tears. If Iraq is to truly become a democratic state with equality and freedom for all...those freedoms will have to be stepped on for a time so that the ends may justify the means. Here is the truth. However, there must be a valid reason for every infringement on rights & freedoms. Any other way will only breed more hate.


Someone on another thread had a wonderful idea about what to do with these goddamn ragheads.....we should do what the Russians did in Grozny...surrond the city so that NONE of them can leave and just level the city with Artillery, bombs, and rockets. Kill every single last one of them. Women, Children, old men, men, absolutely everyone. Just make sure that when we are done there is not a single living organism in the town. If other countries don't like us, too f'in bad. deal with it.

Or in the alternative, we could just drop a few MOABs on the town in the middle of the night while everyone is asleep. I mean it's not like the town is of any value to anyone except terrorists. These acts would swell the ranks of terrorists in every Islamic country in the world.


There are simply some terrible people in the world. Zimbabwae, Algeria, Congo, North Korea, Iran, Saudi, Syrai... will all see their day in the spotlight. One battle at a time...fight the fight that can be won now...then...and only then...move onto the next.
I hope you are right.

[California Joe]

CJ = me. You're always hitting on me.

Listen to mocking. Identify then slot. Slot is a cool term for whack. I'm telling Tony Soprano.

[Fotch]

CJ = Criminal Justice
PM = Paramedicine

The PM degree depends, of course, on whether or not I have the time. I plan on going into the Guard after I graduate.

CJ...very nice.
Some advise: Get into the Gaurd and get your corpman certification. If you like that...you will love the Paramedicine. If not, you find out early if that is the route you want to go. Besides, corpman get sent on all special ops...most important element of the unit.

Good luck on the Dean's List. I missed my first year by 0.1. Got it the last 3 though.

[Maine Finn]

CJ = me. You're always hitting on me.

Listen to mocking. Identify then slot. Slot is a cool term for whack. I'm telling Tony Soprano.

I thought you were a one-woman guy, Joe?

p-)

"Slot" is a cool term.... I like "top" too, but it doesn't have the same ring to it when used in the same context.

[Maine Finn]

CJ = Criminal Justice
PM = Paramedicine

The PM degree depends, of course, on whether or not I have the time. I plan on going into the Guard after I graduate.

CJ...very nice.
Some advise: Get into the Gaurd and get your corpman certification. If you like that...you will love the Paramedicine. If not, you find out early if that is the route you want to go. Besides, corpman get sent on all special ops...most important element of the unit.

Good luck on the Dean's List. I missed my first year by 0.1. Got it the last 3 though.

Dean's List will be harder for me, as I'm attending a two-year school. In the Guard, I'll have Military Police for an MOS. Although paramedicine interests me, I can easily get alternative training in a field that's very similar. I'm looking into it right now, actually....

[Alfons]

Alfons you're getting started on the wrong foot....



Ja..."Hitler was the best of things. Hitler was the worst of things." is hardly what I would call a profoundly intelligent statement. Come on Alfons give us your theory on the good, the bad and the ugly for our least favorite German... :roll:

Awe... maybe my English is too bad (sorry for that) or you didn't get the coin.
Let's try it once more: With Hitler and the failure of the Weimarer Republik Germans learnt a lot. They where able to draw conclusions for the constitition and civil rights of the BRD. Something like this would not be able any more:
http://www.cleis.org/cleisp/page/images/patriot_karikatur.gif



Another thing, you Euro's are our friends lets not argue.
The actual situation is, that Europe has developed a "new self-confidence" and is fed up with the solo efforts of the USA. So there should maybe more discussion and exchange like usually with friends.


Ein Streit zwischen wahren Freunden, wahren Liebenden bedeutet gar nichts. Gefährlich sind nur Streitigkeiten zwischen Menschen, die einander nicht ganz verstehen.
Marie Freifrau von Ebner-Eschenbach

[Fotch]

Alfons you're getting started on the wrong foot....



Ja..."Hitler was the best of things. Hitler was the worst of things." is hardly what I would call a profoundly intelligent statement. Come on Alfons give us your theory on the good, the bad and the ugly for our least favorite German... :roll:

Awe... maybe my English is too bad (sorry for that) or you didn't get the coin.
Let's try it once more: With Hitler and the failure of the Weimarer Republik Germans learnt a lot. They where able to draw conclusions for the constitition and civil rights of the BRD. Something like this would not be able any more:
http://www.cleis.org/cleisp/page/images/patriot_karikatur.gif



Another thing, you Euro's are our friends lets not argue.
The actual situation is, that Europe has developed a "new self-confidence" and is fed up with the solo efforts of the USA. So there should maybe more discussion and exchange like usually with friends.


Ein Streit zwischen wahren Freunden, wahren Liebenden bedeutet gar nichts. Gefährlich sind nur Streitigkeiten zwischen Menschen, die einander nicht ganz verstehen.
Marie Freifrau von Ebner-Eschenbach


That IS a fabulous idea Alfons. I would love to see Europe be decicive on a world issue. Unfortunetly, the UK does not agree with Germany. Germany only partially agrees with France. France doesn't really agree with anyone but says they will for now but will back out later if things get 'sticky'. The rest of the EU has no real power behind them. Germany as a whole may have a 'new self-confidence' but it needs to get on board with ALL of her allies. Not just one or two. Every country in the EU is simply too self-serving for the union to have any kind of world-wide political punch. Not to mention that other than the Big-3 (UK, Germans, France) your militaries don't hold water to the US.

[California Joe]

Don't worry about your grasp of the English language. I think you've made your point. If that point was meant to be "look at me I'm an ahole" But I don't speak ahole.

[talib_killa34]

Alfons you're getting started on the wrong foot....



Ja..."Hitler was the best of things. Hitler was the worst of things." is hardly what I would call a profoundly intelligent statement. Come on Alfons give us your theory on the good, the bad and the ugly for our least favorite German... :roll:

Awe... maybe my English is too bad (sorry for that) or you didn't get the coin.
Let's try it once more: With Hitler and the failure of the Weimarer Republik Germans learnt a lot. They where able to draw conclusions for the constitition and civil rights of the BRD. Something like this would not be able any more:
http://www.cleis.org/cleisp/page/images/patriot_karikatur.gif



Another thing, you Euro's are our friends lets not argue.
The actual situation is, that Europe has developed a "new self-confidence" and is fed up with the solo efforts of the USA. So there should maybe more discussion and exchange like usually with friends.


Ein Streit zwischen wahren Freunden, wahren Liebenden bedeutet gar nichts. Gefährlich sind nur Streitigkeiten zwischen Menschen, die einander nicht ganz verstehen.
Marie Freifrau von Ebner-Eschenbach


I loved how well Europe was handling the Yugoslav civil war before NATO intervened. :roll:

[TALOS]

Alfons you're getting started on the wrong foot....



Ja..."Hitler was the best of things. Hitler was the worst of things." is hardly what I would call a profoundly intelligent statement. Come on Alfons give us your theory on the good, the bad and the ugly for our least favorite German... :roll:

Awe... maybe my English is too bad (sorry for that) or you didn't get the coin.
Let's try it once more: With Hitler and the failure of the Weimarer Republik Germans learnt a lot. They where able to draw conclusions for the constitition and civil rights of the BRD. Something like this would not be able any more:
http://www.cleis.org/cleisp/page/images/patriot_karikatur.gif



Another thing, you Euro's are our friends lets not argue.
The actual situation is, that Europe has developed a "new self-confidence" and is fed up with the solo efforts of the USA. So there should maybe more discussion and exchange like usually with friends.


Ein Streit zwischen wahren Freunden, wahren Liebenden bedeutet gar nichts. Gefährlich sind nur Streitigkeiten zwischen Menschen, die einander nicht ganz verstehen.
Marie Freifrau von Ebner-Eschenbach

That depends on the discussion, it cant be all bitterness at the US for being powerful. Europe is bitter, why? I have no idea but many just straight hate the US.

[Salty Dog]

Alfons you're getting started on the wrong foot....



Ja..."Hitler was the best of things. Hitler was the worst of things." is hardly what I would call a profoundly intelligent statement. Come on Alfons give us your theory on the good, the bad and the ugly for our least favorite German... :roll:

Awe... maybe my English is too bad (sorry for that) or you didn't get the coin.
Let's try it once more: With Hitler and the failure of the Weimarer Republik Germans learnt a lot. They where able to draw conclusions for the constitition and civil rights of the BRD. Something like this would not be able any more:
http://www.cleis.org/cleisp/page/images/patriot_karikatur.gif



Another thing, you Euro's are our friends lets not argue.
The actual situation is, that Europe has developed a "new self-confidence" and is fed up with the solo efforts of the USA. So there should maybe more discussion and exchange like usually with friends.


Ein Streit zwischen wahren Freunden, wahren Liebenden bedeutet gar nichts. Gefährlich sind nur Streitigkeiten zwischen Menschen, die einander nicht ganz verstehen.
Marie Freifrau von Ebner-Eschenbach

That depends on the discussion, it cant be all bitterness at the US for being powerful. Europe is bitter, why? I have no idea but many just straight hate the US.

because their jealous ;) :lol:

[Alfons]

That IS a fabulous idea Alfons. I would love to see Europe be decicive on a world issue. Unfortunetly, the UK does not agree with Germany. Germany only partially agrees with France. France doesn't really agree with anyone but says they will for now but will back out later if things get 'sticky'. The rest of the EU has no real power behind them.

Actually, the situation is a bit tricky because of the new countries. But I don't understand your problem. What you describe as a whole mess is an important step in the shaping of public opinion.
Anyway, have you ever thought that so many countries could more and more fuse after all that centuries of mutual slaughter? In my opinion, this is a grandiose attainment!





Germany as a whole may have a 'new self-confidence' but it needs to get on board with ALL of her allies.

You are right! Germany has a "new self-confidence", too: in foreign policy!
With the EU (& the end of the Soviets) the need for national defence strinked rapidely. The Bundeswehr is now converted to a army for foreign missions.





Not just one or two. Every country in the EU is simply too self-serving for the union to have any kind of world-wide political punch. Not to mention that other than the Big-3 (UK, Germans, France) your militaries don't hold water to the US.

The developement of the EU is still in it's beginning! But soon there will be signed a constitution! ... maybe :lol: So I advise you to wait until the steel is cast.

[Alfons]

because their jealous ;) :lol:

I'm not jealous on your social structure or your soccer or... *drum roll* your President :lol:





Don't worry about your grasp of the English language. I think you've made your point. If that point was meant to be "look at me I'm an ahole" But I don't speak ahole.

Ich liebe deinen subtilen Neanderthaler-Humorhttp://smilies.jeeptalk.org/ups/jaxman/brittish.gif

[Alfons]

I loved how well Europe was handling the Yugoslav civil war before NATO intervened. :roll:

This was a heavy obstacle:
The Government of Social Democrats and "Grüne" had to give green light for a foreign intervention. But this was in conflict with the German constitution which specifies that the Bundeswehr is not allowed to intervent in foreign contries except in case of self-defence.

[Yard Ape]

I loved how well Europe was handling the Yugoslav civil war before NATO intervened. :roll:You mean, how the UN was handling the Yugoslav war.

[talib_killa34]

I loved how well Europe was handling the Yugoslav civil war before NATO intervened. :roll:

This was a heavy obstacle:
The Government of Social Democrats and "Grüne" had to give green light for a foreign intervention. But this was in conflict with the German constitution which specifies that the Bundeswehr is not allowed to intervent in foreign contries except in case of self-defence.

No offense to the UK, but was it not mostly them and France handling it back then? (was it UNPROFOR?) It escapes me right now

I love Germany though man! I can't hate on you guys! I love that Bundeswehr troops are in Afghanistan....come on down to Iraq and help out too brothers!

UK and France: I remember the old cold-war days, you were there for us and we were there for you! All will be ok one day again.

[Yard Ape]

No offense to the UK, but was it not mostly them and France handling it back then? (was it UNPROFOR?) It escapes me right now

UK and France: I remember the old cold-war days, you were there for us and we were there for you! All will be ok one day again.It was the UN running the show in Yugoslavia (hence UNPROFOR). You may want to go revist your Cold War history aswell. France did not agree with how NATO planned to fight it, and was ready to do its own thing.

[zachary harten]

The U.N. generally takes too long in many affairs (ie Iraq and WMD's) and actions that need to be handled right at the moment. :( Who wants to wait?

[usa320]

The damn well knew what they were doing!

You don't f-ing mutilate a body with shovel without making a conscience dicesion!

My feelings exactly.

I think that whole city needs to be cordoned off some night and search house by house by a serious fighting force for guns and insurgents and baathists.


The adults in the photos should be found and killed. And im dead serious. killed.

The teens jailed.

The children EDUCATED.

[cut]

You people honestly think when you kill them all you will never see this kind of thing happen again, let alone more often?

[SeanR]

The damn well knew what they were doing!

You don't f-ing mutilate a body with shovel without making a conscience dicesion!

My feelings exactly.

I think that whole city needs to be cordoned off some night and search house by house by a serious fighting force for guns and insurgents and baathists.


The adults in the photos should be found and killed. And im dead serious. killed.

The teens jailed.

The children EDUCATED.

I love this idea 320. I'm all for it.

[California Joe]

I'm not sure but I think that new assclown said I was a subtle neanderthal. Pretty cool. Coming from an uninformed Troglodyte.

No cut, we think we'll see it again but scalping those ****s would make us feel better temporarily.

[usa320]

yep. This kind of gruesome violence seems to be caused by a handful of losers in a single city... sure there are occasional rocket attacks in Baghdad and sniper attacks in Tikrit, but the majority of these terrorist style bombings and desecration and militancy is occuring within this single pocket in fallujah. So i say encircle the city with tanks, make sure no one can get out, and round up all of the bad apples... take all the rope in texas and a tall oak tree....

p-)

[mustamato]

The damn well knew what they were doing!

You don't f-ing mutilate a body with shovel without making a conscience dicesion!

My feelings exactly.

I think that whole city needs to be cordoned off some night and search house by house by a serious fighting force for guns and insurgents and baathists.


The adults in the photos should be found and killed. And im dead serious. killed.

The teens jailed.

The children EDUCATED.

Yes of course :roll:

[usa320]

oh screw you- how could you possibly argue in defense of people who desecrate corpses? Sure we killed iraqi's, but did we drag them through the streets and hang them from a bridge?

HELL NO.

Your twisted.

Again, ill quote myself in stating the only logical way i see to fixing this problem.


I say cordon of the whole god damn city with a whole god damn armored division if you have too, and search every single house, every building, every hospital, every school, every outdoor ****ter, room by room. There are far too many guns, RPG's and explosives in that city. I think the Marine's strategy of hearts and minds will be found highly effective in every city in Iraq, besides fallujah. I think they need to send in some armored divisions, with serious air support...low flying A-10's and B-52's. Set up alot of checkpoints. Until we get the weapons out of that town it will continue to be a haven for these people.

[talib_killa34]

No offense to the UK, but was it not mostly them and France handling it back then? (was it UNPROFOR?) It escapes me right now

UK and France: I remember the old cold-war days, you were there for us and we were there for you! All will be ok one day again.It was the UN running the show in Yugoslavia (hence UNPROFOR). You may want to go revist your Cold War history aswell. France did not agree with how NATO planned to fight it, and was ready to do its own thing.

Yeah, they even were out for a bit too were they not? They are still in NATO but...something..they don't fall under the "attack on one-attack on all" policy? Is that right?

School me! :P

[cut]

oh screw you- how could you possibly argue in defense of people who desecrate corpses? Sure we killed iraqi's, but did we drag them through the streets and hang them from a bridge?

HELL NO.

Your twisted.

Again, ill quote myself in stating the only logical way i see to fixing this problem.


I say cordon of the whole god damn city with a whole god damn armored division if you have too, and search every single house, every building, every hospital, every school, every outdoor ****ter, room by room. There are far too many guns, RPG's and explosives in that city. I think the Marine's strategy of hearts and minds will be found highly effective in every city in Iraq, besides fallujah. I think they need to send in some armored divisions, with serious air support...low flying A-10's and B-52's. Set up alot of checkpoints. Until we get the weapons out of that town it will continue to be a haven for these people.


We're not arguing that you let them off but that you imprison them, if you kill them or simply get revenge as you say that you are continuing the circle of violence, if you kill their extremist friends the rest will become anti-american too, and then will see more burning corpses being mutilated to add to the more terrorists attacks we're expecting.

[M1A2U2]

So cut's theory is appeasment. Why can't you just say it?

[cut]

you love that word don't you?

I'm looking at the wider picture, not just revenge.

Do you want this little dally in nation building to work or would you rather have the French and Germans laughing at us when the whole thing flops and terrorism gets a boost to boot?

I know what I want.

[Yard Ape]

So cut's theory is appeasment. Why can't you just say it?I belive in the USA it is called justice. It comes complete with a fair trial (and the photo evidence is pretty damning).

[cut]

Do you want to teach these guys freedom and western values or do you just want to replace saddam?

We tried this whole thing before last time we were in Iraq, when we left because we'd treated them badly (as was the case back then) they just killed the people we put in power as soon as we left in a not too dissimilar way from the 4 contractors.

[California Joe]

Honestly, these people are not afraid of us, they don't like us, or respect us. We can not in good conscience do anything to them that would make them fear us. Their perception of fear was shaped by Saddam. Unless we start rounding them up and raping their children and feeding them into wood chippers alive then we can't really impress upon them that they should be afraid.

[cut]

Honestly, these people are not afraid of us, they don't like us, or respect us. We can not in good conscience do anything to them that would make them fear us. Their perception of fear was shaped by Saddam. Unless we start rounding them up and raping their children and feeding them into wood chippers alive then we can't really impress upon them that they should be afraid.

so lock them up, if you kill them things are just going to get ****ed up. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that none of them shouldn't be punished. Those who did kill those guys can be killed but the ones celbrating afterwards are not murderers.

[California Joe]

Logically I agree with you, it's just that initial visceral reaction of wanting to hurt those gloating, smiling pricks that we need to get past. We will. Some of them will dissapear, some will end up beaten or in prison. Hopefully some will feel guilty and get cancer.

[Yard Ape]

I have already expressed how I feel this needs to be handled. We must be firm, but we must also be just.

Sadly, while the majority was just a mob, I suspect there were organizers with specific strategic goals in mind. If they can destabilize reconstruction efforts & fan the flames of hate, they will hope to drag the US into its own Chechnya. Such a turn of events would make Iraq unwinnable. This does not prohibit increased military presence and security measures.

Despite this mob, which showed itself to be a group of animals, Coalition forces must remain firm & fair. The leadership must retain tight control of their soldiers. Reprisals will just mean that the murderers have won.
We need to take the same approach as in Afghanistan: win hearts & minds and educate.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11285



Joe public loves creaming himself over SF, but Sappers and Medics are what wins 'the savage wars of peace'.There is the truth. The populace will support whoever keeps them safe, respects thier rights, and brings the infrastructure for them to live (schools, hospitals, clean water, electricity, etc). Where you find terrorist organisations providing these things, you may find a populace that is willing to accept the terrorists. Where nobody provides these things, you will find a disgruntled populace that may turn to violence.

[Yard Ape]

Logically I agree with you, it's just that initial visceral reaction of wanting to hurt those gloating, smiling pricks that we need to get past. We will. Leadership at all levels is going to be challenged to ensure subordinates keep these urges under control. If we handle this appropriatly, it will go a long way to winning respect. However, if junior leaders resort to "tactics" that earned the US bad publicity in Veitnam, then we will loose the hearts & minds battle.

[cut]

Logically I agree with you, it's just that initial visceral reaction of wanting to hurt those gloating, smiling pricks that we need to get past. We will. Some of them will dissapear, some will end up beaten or in prison. Hopefully some will feel guilty and get cancer.

True but which is more civilised, what the point of the war on terror if we are going to do the exact opposite in the war in Iraq. What is the point of getting rid of saddam if we are going to keep his brand of rough justice.

[California Joe]

I'm not arguing with you, I'm pointing out natural reactions vs. well though out policy. Something there was too little of before this whole affair started. It's human to want revenge against what we perceive as a horrific injustice against our own. What if that was TP, or Argyll or any of the others that we know that could be there.

[cut]

Yeah I know I feel the same way, but which do you think should be done?

[Pooga]

They may be 12-year-olds, but they are not kids (sounds like a Yogi Berra).

One thing is certain: something has to be done. The Coalition cannot just take and accept this. Something has to be done to show that the Coalition is not a soft teddy bear. Something has to be done to show that the Coalition is a muscled Grizzly bear. What that action is, I do not know. If there's one thing Fallujah will respect, it's the will to use one's strength. If we act like we are afraid of the publicity of our actions, we're going to see another Somalia (we already did).

One word: decoy. Draw them out to attack another SUV, or make something look high-value, and when they show their faces, shoot them. :fork:

[Tane Angle]

Bait is already used, but good idea. It seems that every suggestion has major problems that it causes. I don't know if there is a quick and easy solution. I don't know if there is one at all.

[Beowulf]

Bait is already used, but good idea. It seems that every suggestion has major problems that it causes. I don't know if there is a quick and easy solution. I don't know if there is one at all.

[voice from outside] Nuke'em [voice from outside].....Sixgun??

[Maine Finn]

Bait is already used, but good idea. It seems that every suggestion has major problems that it causes. I don't know if there is a quick and easy solution. I don't know if there is one at all.

[voice from outside] Nuke'em [voice from outside].....Sixgun??

Oh please no.

[MEGR]

I just saw those pics, and I am apalled.. We should isolate this city, and rule it with an Iron Fist.. Now that is what these people understand, violence. What did the Russians do when they got to Berlin? They killed all the sympathizers, and basically leveled that city. This is our enemy people.. They want to do this to people here.. They want to hang you and me off the bridges in NY and SF like these men.. These actions border on animalistic...

[Maine Finn]

I just saw those pics, and I am apalled.. We should isolate this city, and rule it with an Iron Fist.. Now that is what these people understand, violence. What did the Russians do when they got to Berlin? They killed all the sympathizers, and basically leveled that city. This is our enemy people.. They want to do this to people here.. They want to hang you and me off the bridges in NY and SF like these men.. These actions border on animalistic...


Yes, but if we do essentially the same thing as they have, we're no better than they are. We don't have a prayer of making any progreess with the Iraqi people if we retaliate the same way the terrorists do.

That's not to say we should take something like this lying down, but at we ought to at least be level-headed about it.

My two bits on that, at any rate.

~Emily

[mustamato]

I just saw those pics, and I am apalled.. We should isolate this city, and rule it with an Iron Fist.. Now that is what these people understand, violence. What did the Russians do when they got to Berlin? They killed all the sympathizers, and basically leveled that city. This is our enemy people.. They want to do this to people here.. They want to hang you and me off the bridges in NY and SF like these men.. These actions border on animalistic...

So that is why you are occupying Iraq?

[MEGR]

Look.. They don't like us in that part of Iraq.. Are you kidding me? They hate us there, what do you suggest we do? This is madness. Don't think that treating these folks to candy and money will prevent another one of these.. These are hardliners, and need to be eliminated.. They don't want peace at all.

As for Mustamato, these people that hang US corpses on bridges, burn them etc. are the enemy.. I didn't say all the Iraqi people.. As for why we went in.. I'm not going to argue with that because i won't convince you no matter what and vice versa.

[FRO]

Logically I agree with you, it's just that initial visceral reaction of wanting to hurt those gloating, smiling pricks that we need to get past. We will. Some of them will dissapear, some will end up beaten or in prison. Hopefully some will feel guilty and get cancer.

Bing-freakin'-go. When I saw the pics, when I read what happened, I just thought "toast those f%^kers." Rationally, though, toasting, slotting, topping, (insert euphemism here) proves true anyone who has said that the USA can't live up to its own ideals, that it has no intention of democratizing Iraq, that it's there for oil.

The question becomes, how much do you believe in your country? I don't mean in its administration and institutions, I mean the idea of the USA. It's like freedom of speech. If you take it away from anyone, you don't really believe in freedom of speech, you believe in your freedom of speech. In the USA, an individual is innocent until proven guilty, no matter how obvious that guilt might seem. Once proven guilty, well, that's a whole other can of worms.

So punishment? Absolutely. Murder? Say what you will, in my mind, without a trial, it is murder, lynching, whatever. Murder says that the terrorists' concept of society and justice are better than the USA's. I, personally, don't believe that.

But that's just me.

[Fintin]

we need to just lay down the law....and write some new ones.....give orders to shoot if threatened....post big signs all over saying if you threaten troops or any contracter you get a shot.....round up the biggest guys from all the branches of the military give them full riot gear and big sticks.....if they wont understand justice teach it to them at the end of a big stick.....however you also would have to reward those who do not act like little pisses. if you help your house gets fixed...if not it should have to be

[Yard Ape]

I just saw those pics, and I am apalled.. We should isolate this city, and rule it with an Iron Fist.. Now that is what these people understand, violence. What did the Russians do when they got to Berlin? They killed all the sympathizers, and basically leveled that city. This is our enemy people.. They want to do this to people here.. They want to hang you and me off the bridges in NY and SF like these men.. These actions border on animalistic...An aggressive response is not unwarranted. Political murders are not the appropriate response. I caution all those who advocate copying the Russians to remember that their methods have not won Grozny, but their methods have lead more terrorists to murder their citizens.

[MEGR]

From what i read, these folks were guarding a food shipment for that city.. Now if they (Iraqis) kill the people who want to feed them, then how should we react then?

[Yard Ape]

From what i read, these folks were guarding a food shipment for that city.. Now if they do that to people who want to feed them, then how should we react then?Arrest & prosecute those suspected of instigating the mob.

[MEGR]

Easier said than done unfortunately. I see where you guys come from.. I as an American am very passionate about what is going on over there, and hate to see this happen.. I have a different view of things, and just want to share them.. It's good that you'll put ur two cents in and such.

[Yard Ape]

As a Canadian, I think we should be over there with you.

[Tane Angle]

Good idea. How? Who's responsible? Outside-looking-in intelligence can only do so much. Inside intelligence is what we need. But how does one get that? Fallujah is a rather homogeneous city. There are not enough people who we could easily get help from. They are hardliners. Look at hardliners on this site; they are never convinced that they are wrong, correct? They believe nearly fully, if not fully, that they're cause is right. The same principle applies in Fallujah-we won't convince our enemies there to like us. We can't get inside. So how do we ID them?

One possibility is to use facial recognition software from cameras in the city to scan the TV images, then arrest the positive IDs. However, the enemy would very quickly realize that the cameras were there and would take them out. So that doesn't work real well.

I'm not saying anyone's wrong; indeed, there are a lot of real good suggestions. I'm mostly just trying to get people to elaborate, and evaluate the viability of their suggestions. The reason is good often, but are they workable? Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[Yard Ape]

Monetary reward was enough even to get Saddam handed over. Maybe it could be used here to.

[MEGR]

It's a good concept of Id and such, but if people don't want it here, they sure as hell won't want that in Fallujah.. By the way, I'm not trying to be a hardliner.. I'm putting my faith in my Prez, and the US military to do what they have to do.. There are other allied countries that have dealt with this thing, and maybe we can learn a thing or two.

[TALOS]

As a Canadian, I think we should be over there with you.
I'm with you there and have been from the beginning, I know some Canadian military guys and they agree.

[fisheyestudio]

Helix, here is my answer as to what to do with "those children".

Love them. Pray that they would see the endless cycle of hate that they are in so that they might choose a different path.

Love them enough to hold them accountable for their actions if possible.

As an American, my hope is that we will continue to fight for what we know is right and be willing to love those who hate us and overcome evil with good.

The only answer in this situation, and in all situations, is a changed heart.

I only know of one way to recieve a new heart...

My prayer is that the iraqi people will see the love and Faith of the many soldiers who have Jesus the Christ in their hearts, and will be drawn by that love, to seek a change of heart themselves.

My prayers are with all those family memeber who are suffering from this event.

Jesus blessings!
chris holloman

[M1A2U2]

Deaing with these people is like dealing with the devil. Do we want to get along with the devil?

[Yard Ape]

Deaing with these people is like dealing with the devil. Do we want to get along with the devil?To whom do you apply the term "these people?" In your post it is clear to see the hate. Hate is what the terrorists & murrderers want. Hate ensures the cycle of violence continues.

I won't go so far as to say we must love them, but we must respect the people of Iraq. This can be done while still remaining firm.

[Yard Ape]

I thought this was relevant, and it says the message perfectly:

During mob violence strange things happen, you can't judge a whole race of people based on what a few crazed individuals do. These types of incidences have happened years ago... lynchings... and probably will happen again and again in the future.

Just a couple of months ago here in Chicago a mob dragged a driver and passenger from a van (after they hit a pedestrian) and beat them to death. Crazy "savage" Chicagoans???

[Spookyman]

Gunship over that crowd would have been very effective. Quick burst from 25mm can be a quick party crasher.

[Rec0n]

My answer, ship them over to Helix's place.
Okay, that being my answer, I am anxious to hear your answer to the question Helix.


R

[duck]

Go local. Accept the tribal culture and punish the whole extended family of the killers and mutilators. No job offerings, no government assistance, razing of the main offenders and their families houses, do everything to make their life miserable for the next few years. Every Marine should keep the families names with them at all times to avoid helping them in any situation.

Of course this in addition to normal trial & punishment.

[Yard Ape]

duck,
That will only increase resentment and result in more violence. Punishment must focus on the individuals and not the entire community.

[duck]

Don't know arab culture that well, but I have the impression the family/clan elders wield a lot of influence. The younger guys don't do much without their consent. I think making the family suffer financially is a good way to prevent others from taking example. The older from agitating and the younger from tossing grenades.

[SeanR]

ex-SEALs...Jesus christ! If these guys weren't safe, nobody is over there!

[HELEX]

All in all this looks not really like a spontaneous act, they were trying to imitate the things happened in Somalia in some way.
Hoping for the same results. If that doesnt work they will intensify the level of brutalty.
The pleasure of the Iraqis was real, anyway.

[Yard Ape]

HELEX,
What reaction (military or other) do you feel is appropriate?

[HELEX]

Wait some time...
Give them some info about a planned convoy, make sure the "right" people see vehivcles moving by and will try to lay an Ambush. Use civil vehicles not visibly armored with Special forces inside, have a Armed Predator B Drone in the sky for situationanal awareness and emergency firepower.
Put two A-10 on ready(Longer endurance and faster, from not seen not heard to deadly distance than Apache).
If they show up, get them and shred them.

[Korth]

Some interesting analysis from the Belmont Club (www.belmontclub.blogspot.com) and Steven Den Beste (www.denbeste.nu)

The attack on the four U.S. citizens may have been a calculated effort to provoke an overreaction from 1st MarDiv, and pull in rescue forces into a pre-planned ambush.

Den Beste argues that the attacks were designed to cause maximum outrage in the U.S., and cause a heavy-handed response that would destroy any hope of including the Sunnis in the new government. Falluja is a Sunni-dominated area, and a "take off and nuke the entire site from orbit" approach would cause the majority of Sunnis to revolt against the U.S. occupation.

The Marine response is very interesting. Rather than sending in a convoy to extract the dead Americans, 1st MarDiv cordoned off the area (Falluja is bordered by a river on one side, and has four roads leading in and out).

Brig General Mark Kimmitt was worried about possible ambushes and heavy civilian casualties if his soldiers were attacked during a rescue attempt. His concern is legitimate, since that exact same tactic was used in Mogadishu. Al-Qaeda trained guerillas downed two helicopters, sucking the troopers of Task Force Ranger and the operators of Delta Force into a lethal ambush (most casualties were incurred as ground forces moved from the insertion point to the crash sites, and the vehicle convoy took heavy losses while driving through the city).

Wretchtard at the Belmont Club suspects that the Marines will move against Falluja at a time and place of their own choosing. Intelligence will be developed, trying to identify key players and their infrastructure (hopefully, 1st Marine will be able to tap into the expertise that the U.S. Army's 4th Mech Division developed during the Great Hussein Hunt). The city will be sectioned off, monitored by UAVs, and the Marines will sweep through. Belmont Club believes that Iraqi policemen will play a large role in prisoner processing and interrogation. That should terrify the local Sunnis, especially if the Iraqi policemen are drawn from the Kurd or *****e populations.

It will be dangerous work - locating small terror cells in a large city is difficult, and expect the perps to use civilians as shields. Marine scout-sniper teams will play a critical role. Massive firepower won't be employed - force will be applied quickly, decisively, and appropriately. The operation will take several weeks, not days.

If innocents are wounded or killed, expect to see widespread press coverage. The Israeli incursion into the Jenin refugee camp is instructive. Despite low civilian casualties, the world press presented the operation as a massacre. Kimmitt should be prepared to respond quickly to such claims, and should give serious consideration to embedding reporters with combat elements.

[Yard Ape]

I think Belmont Club and Steven Den Beste are on the right track there.

[Haiw]

ex-SEALs...Jesus christ! If these guys weren't safe, nobody is over there!
No offence, but when you're a SEAL or not doesn't make any difference when someone tosses a handgrenade at your vehicle, or when you drive past an IED. Explosions don't discriminate...

[Fox2]

I did not take the time to read every message in the past few pages, but I thought I would add that I heard Brigadier General Mark Kemmitt say earlier this morning that the plan is to send the Marines into the city. According to Kimmit, they're going to put 50 Marines in every neighborhood, and go from there. He also mentioned that it would be beneficial to deploy some ICDC troops there with the Marines, and that they are looking into that.

He then said that the majority in Fallujah, although Sunni and may not agree with the Coalition, just want to get on with their lives in peace. According to this Brigadier General, it is a minority of violent thugs who are causing these problems and portraying the entire city in a bad light.

In his words, about the city of Fallujah, "The Iraqis that just want to live their lives in peace, we will help them to do that. The bad guys that want to kill soldiers or civilians, we will help them to meet a quick end."

I think the Coalition will do what is right, and that is not to firebomb the city, as some armchair commanders here believe. Those responsible for attacking or killing Coalition members or contractors will be dealt with. Those who just want to live their lives in Fallujah, will be able to live their lives, with help from the Coalition.

The "Kill them all" statements are natural and come from the rage that comes with seeing such images. I myself felt the same way when I saw the corpses hanging on the bridge, with grins all around in the foreground. Thankfully, though, the ones in charge in Iraq are smarter than I, and know exactly what to do.

EDIT: Some related news article links

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,115943,00.html

http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/usandun/04032202.htm

[HELEX]

In his words, about the city of Fallujah, "The Iraqis that just want to live their lives in peace, we will help them to do that. The bad guys that want to kill soldiers or civilians, we will help them to meet a quick end."

Dont you think this "Bad Guys" stuff sounds a bit....stupid?

[Yard Ape]

Dont you think this "Bad Guys" stuff sounds a bit....stupid?No.

[zachary harten]

Stupid?! Stupid was killing people and then mutilating thier corpses! As someone said before, you can celebrate the death of your enemies in ways much less degrading... we need to degrade those responsible now to send a message :slap:

[Fox2]

Dont you think this "Bad Guys" stuff sounds a bit....stupid?

No.

What would you rather they call them?

Or don't you think that they are indeed bad?

[Rilence]

Dont you think this "Bad Guys" stuff sounds a bit....stupid?[/quote]

nope. :backhand:

[HELEX]

Beeing bad is always a question concerning the point of view.
For example Osama bin Ladens former friends said he is a nice and decent guy who spends a lot of time playing with his children.

These "bad guys" in Iraq arent seen like that by the local population. They are Heros for them, fighting an powerfull enemy who invaded their country and is totally superior in number and equipment. And you like those Movies where "evil" empires are defeated by "rebels", dont you?

What do you think french resistance fighters did in WW2? They cut off the ... of dead german Soldiers and put them in their mouth or removed their eyes and other stuff. There were cases when french women were pregnant from german Soldiers these "freedom fighters" took a Knife and....

Yes, that is a real dirty business.....

[cut]

Dont you think this "Bad Guys" stuff sounds a bit....stupid?

No.

What would you rather they call them?

Or don't you think that they are indeed bad?

the baddies! the naughty evil-doers! miscreants? devil worshippers? mean people..


I think the point HELEX is making is that, the use of all this good vs. bad is childish. Everyone knows that once you reach puberty you stop seeing things in black and white, good and evil, and start seeing that things are more complicated.

People who travel around more get to know different people are more accepting and never see a whole nationality as being evil. Not only that but in a rural village in sunni triangle, you will still find people who are friendly to americans, all this iron fist control of the whole area is not a realistic prospect.

The fact that Bush calls anyone bad guys, and the axis of evil reinforces his retarded/monkey/cowboy images

[Yard Ape]

These "bad guys" in Iraq arent seen like that by the local population. They are Heros for them, fighting an powerfull enemy who invaded their country and is totally superior in number and equipment. And you like those Movies where "evil" empires are defeated by "rebels", dont you? In those movies, the dead are not abused.



What do you think french resistance fighters did in WW2? They cut off the ... of dead german Soldiers and put them in their mouth or removed their eyes and other stuff. There were cases when french women were pregnant from german Soldiers these "freedom fighters" took a Knife and.... They would be immoral individuals = Bad.

[duck]

They are fighting for their clans right to continue living from other Iraqis pockets like under Saddam. They are also fighting for the right to brutally suppress the Shias and Kurds and keep ruling Iraq like under Saddam. And then they are ashamed of themselves because they were afraid to die in the actual war and deserted Saddam's army. Now they try to restore their honor by killing those who want to help rebuild the country.

[Tane Angle]

It's a heck of a lot easier to kill them when they're dehumanized. It's psychologically necessary. If calling them "bad guys" helps, go for it.

Nice posts, Fox2.

About the "planned convoys" and thins like that...we need those convoys to be running everyday. There isn't much way around it-convoys have to roll through Fallujah every day. And yes, this was not spontaneous, it was planned. The extent of the horror might have been encourgaged if not planned, but the initial attack itself was not only well-planned, but all too well-executed.

Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

[zachary harten]

Good thoughts... I agree

[xjym2002]

... There were cases when french women were pregnant from german Soldiers they took a Knife and....


Those who took a knife and ... are definitely bad guys.

[Fox2]

People who travel around more get to know different people are more accepting and never see a whole nationality as being evil. Not only that but in a rural village in sunni triangle, you will still find people who are friendly to americans, all this iron fist control of the whole area is not a realistic prospect.

No one is calling the whole nation evil or bad. It was said that the people who did this are "the bad guys." Like Brig. General Kimmitt said, many of those in Fallujah just want to get on with their lives. The people who are starting trouble are a minority, and infact, their goal is to make us think the whole city thinks like they do. They know that if they do that, we will want to respond as some more zealous posters on this thread have posted. "Kill them all!", "Make Fallujah like Grozny!", etc. The insurgents WANT that to happen. Because if we firebomb the city, then we fill their recruitment pool again. Thankfully, those in control in Iraq know better.

About the "iron fist control," the Brig. General said that we have to take a sort of "iron gauntlet on one hand, velvet glove on the other" approach. So, like the original quote that started all this "good guy - bad guy" semantics stated, "The Iraqis that want to live peacefully, we will help them. The bad guys that want to kill us or civilians, we will help them to meet a quick end."

Are you trying to say we should not fight those who seek to kill our countrymen or civilian contractors?

We, as a society, like to think of ourselves as morally progressive, but how can that be true when we fail to see the immorality in an act such as this?

No, I will not be afraid to identify the people who burned, killed, and mutilated those civilians this week for what they are; bad guys. You may deem me childish, retarded, or monkey-like (hey, I like monkeys). But, that is the truth. The act they did was without morality, it was not "good," in any sense of the word. The fact that we cannot even agree on the immorality and savagry of this act speaks volumes.


Beeing bad is always a question concerning the point of view.
For example Osama bin Ladens former friends said he is a nice and decent guy who spends a lot of time playing with his children.

These "bad guys" in Iraq arent seen like that by the local population. They are Heros for them, fighting an powerfull enemy who invaded their country and is totally superior in number and equipment. And you like those Movies where "evil" empires are defeated by "rebels", dont you?

Yes, being "bad" is always a question of point of view, and one's own morals. Obviously, this was an American Brigadier General saying this, so you know what point of view it's coming from. I would think someone who speaks with intelligence would realize that without the need for it being said. It's like saying "in my opinion" to start a sentence in an op-ed. Of course it's in your opinion, you're writing an opinion editorial for pete's sake!

As for the local population stuff, I disagree. Even the local clerics are condemning the act, calling it out as wrong within Islam!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,115943,00.html

The people who did this are a minority in Iraq. They are not the majority, and never will be the majority, especially with the smart people who are running things over there.

The local population does not support the bad guys. That's why so many of the insurgents are being turned in by their own people! That's why the Iraqi CDC is an integral part of the rebuilding process! These people just want to get on with their lives, and they are smart enough to know the Coalition is the only one at the moment who's going to help them do that. The insurgents and "rebels" are just making things worse for the average Iraqi. And the average Iraqi knows this. Sooner or later, we will see, the ones to keep the insurgents and trouble-makers at bay will be the Iraqis themselves. That is what we're working towards.

HELEX, regardless of what you thought of the start of the war, the reasons for the war, or the Bush administration, why are you unwilling to see that the majority of the Iraqi people are cooperative? What "irks" you about the fact that most Iraqis are helping us, and in turn we are helping them? Are you so vehemently obsessed with the beginning of the war, that you are afraid something good might come out of Iraq in the end?

Just my thoughts...

[MEGR]

I heard on ABC radio news this morning that the US is planning to launch some sort of offensive, in retaliation to this atrocity.

[cold0]

I heard on ABC radio news this morning that the US is planning to launch some sort of offensive, in retaliation to this atrocity.

This time that bunch of animal would be less happy and I don't think that they will have much time to chant, dance and hack body parts.

For whom the bell tolls time is marching on....

[MEGR]

U.S. officials promised punishment for the culprits of Wednesday's attacks "at the time and place of our choosing

From Fox news article, here's the link ==>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,115960,00.html

[Yard Ape]

The locals will see what it means to be firm, decisive, and just.

[Bootneck]

Beeing bad is always a question concerning the point of view.
For example Osama bin Ladens former friends said he is a nice and decent guy who spends a lot of time playing with his children.

These "bad guys" in Iraq arent seen like that by the local population.

Moral relativism at it's finest. I guess thinking like that makes it easier to do nothing.

[Uncle Sam]

*** WARNING - Graphic Material ***

Listen as to what these men were guarding...Watch the way they get treated! (Scroll Down)
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http://www.feedroom.com/iframeset.jsp?ord=152433

Scroll to "War in Iraq" in upper left coner...

Watch the first two videos titled: "Brutal Attack" and "Murder in Mosul"
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[Rilence]

saveges.

[TALOS]

Dont you think this "Bad Guys" stuff sounds a bit....stupid?

No.

What would you rather they call them?

Or don't you think that they are indeed bad?

the baddies! the naughty evil-doers! miscreants? devil worshippers? mean people..


I think the point HELEX is making is that, the use of all this good vs. bad is childish. Everyone knows that once you reach puberty you stop seeing things in black and white, good and evil, and start seeing that things are more complicated.

People who travel around more get to know different people are more accepting and never see a whole nationality as being evil. Not only that but in a rural village in sunni triangle, you will still find people who are friendly to americans, all this iron fist control of the whole area is not a realistic prospect.

The fact that Bush calls anyone bad guys, and the axis of evil reinforces his retarded/monkey/cowboy images
Well cut, you top yourself with that one, sounds like someone who once said to me that there is no right and wrong just peoples decisions.
WRONG, there is both right and wrong and good and bad and these animals are bad. ANYBODY who could defend or even look for a defense of such actions has lost that point. Murdering people who are trying to bring food water and stability to the region IS BAD.

[AdMan]

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides with the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's ke eper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon those with great vengeance and with furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know that my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

[shrek]

I will post this wherever HELEX and those like him post until I see some response!

Ahh HELEX my boy (or semblance there of). We had a boy on our team like you one time. Always had something to say, and what he said was always cutting or derogatory. He lasted a month in country, his picture has been posted by me several times, we sent him home, that’s right, we sent him home. It’s possible friends! However, you know, there was one big difference between you and him. He had the balls to look you in the eye when he said the things that he said. He would go toe to toe with you, and I respected that.
You, on the other hand, I do not respect! I can see a picture of you so very clearly. Young, not very handsome (or pretty, whichever you prefer), never really had women friends, frustrated at the world and desperately needing something or someone to take it out on. You may have tried to be in the military or even told the people on this site that you have been, I doubt it, the way you go on I would have to say that the military hurt you in some way, your hatred for it seeps out of your words.
You’re kind are not happy unless they have made someone else unhappy, at least as unhappy they are. Therefore, here’s what I propose HELEX and all like you: Leave. Just don’t come back!

Ok, real world, we all know that people like HELEX never leave, that’s the worst part about them.



THIS IS FOR EVERYBODY ELSE. PROVE TO ME THAT YOU ALL HAVE THE BALLS AND INTELLIGENCE TO BEAT THIS MONKEY AND OTHERS JUST LIKE HIM, PLEASE, SHOW ME THAT YOU HAVE WHAT IT TAKES!!!


From this point forward, whenever you see a post by these pieces of trash, IGNORE THEM! That doesn’t mean answer them once, then quit, It means don’t answer them at all. Let’s have conversations around them. If they post and it pisses you off then they have won my friends. Take a breath, skip their posts and answer the last post that was on the real subject. Currently we are the food that feeds these ass monkeys, stop feeding them.

If this erks you, sorry, perhaps I’m talking to you!

Shrek

[Fox2]

From this point forward, whenever you see a post by these pieces of trash, IGNORE THEM! That doesn’t mean answer them once, then quit, It means don’t answer them at all. Let’s have conversations around them. If they post and it pisses you off then they have won my friends. Take a breath, skip their posts and answer the last post that was on the real subject. Currently we are the food that feeds these ass monkeys, stop feeding them.

Good advice. Pretty hard to do, though.

Saying things like my Commander-in-Chief should be jailed or in the Hague, that's pretty damned hard to not answer.

But, good advice for the future.

[Bootneck]

Good advice. Pretty hard to do, though.


Actually, it's not. It just takes a little self control.

Shrek is absolutely right. We can take back this forum by not giving these assclowns the audience they're looking for. We do our part and don't engage them. The mods do theirs when a line is crossed.

[usa320]

Im going to make one more brief comment on this thread.

These extremists right now feel they can do anything they want. We cant educate the, about moral values and democracy if they arent willing to listen. They listen to one thing only, and that is force.

[Yard Ape]

They listen to one thing only, and that is force.
They will see that soon enough. I expect that, to their dismay, that force will be applied judiciously and methodically. It will be done in a way that will not allow the murderers to degenerate it to chaotic violence that will see a massacre on both sides. They want a “media victory” and they will not get it. They want to turn Iraq into Chechnya and they will not get that.

[Uncle Sam]

It will be interesting to see just what will happen in Fallujah...

[Pooga]

Anybody remember "Combat Missions," that sort of reality show where they had retired military members shoot eachother with MILES gear? Remember Scott Helvenston? Yeah, well, he was one of the four guys killed. Makes me even more mad at the worthless…scum…that desecrated those bodies especially now that I know who one of the contractors were.

We need to be ruthless. Fallujah needs to be provoked into a fight. Something needs to happen to get them to go wild again, and when they do, we take them out. No worries about media stories, no PC.

[Yard Ape]

We need to be ruthless. Fallujah needs to be provoked into a fight. Something needs to happen to get them to go wild again, and when they do, we take them out. No worries about media stories, no PC.This course of action would only breed more terrorists.

[HELEX]

Nothing will happen... a big media show with searches and arrests without evidence will happen. Some weapons will be "found" and shown to the Media. And then the arrested will be released silently after a week....


:roll:

[Pooga]

If you aren't ruthless, then you're nice, and nice is what we are now. Being nice is getting people killed.

The Coalition not being made up of Islamic nations breeds terrorists.

HELEX: Saying something like that prompts me to ask this question: What do you think should be done? :D

[NcDeuce]

A kid with a weapon is a kid with a weapon.

You hear gunshots and see a firefight break out, you do not flock to it. These kids ought to have known better.

If I were being shot at and in danger of being overrun, and I see a kid running toward my position...you bet your ass I'd put a round between the kid's eyes.

War is not a game. You do not run to the nearest firefight to see if you can be 'picked for teams'. You head towards a gun fight, be prepared to shoot or be shot at.

[Yard Ape]

If you aren't ruthless, then you're nice, and nice is what we are now. Being nice is getting people killed. The world is not so black & white. Whatever approach is taken must be just. Indiscriminate beatings or killings will achieve nothing. Showing the entire populace that the US has the capacity to shut-down & control the entire town will leave an impression. Showing that that the US has the capacity to go anywhere it wants in the town will leave an impression. Arrests of criminals will send a message that “we will find you.” If they are treated with dignity, the populace may or may not remember. If they are treated with contempt and like animals they will remember as will the entire Islamic world

[throat warbler mangrove]

You know, I just watched a program last night about Rwanda, where (in case you forgot) 800,000 Tutus that were massacred by Hutus in about about two months while the US and the UN did absolutely effing nothing. Makes you wonder why we're really in Iraq.

Sorry me ole mates, I just couldn't help it.

[MaDuce]

Rawanda was a shame and something that many western countires look back and say what if.

[Fox2]

Yes, Rwanda was indeed a tragedy of immense magnitude. The administration of this country at that time (Clinton) was just coming out of Somalia, and did not want a repeat of history.

It is not related to Iraq, though, seeing as how that was a different administration, and they are a totally different nation, with different geopolitical climates.

[Pooga]

Yard Ape: I'm not talking about levelling the whole city. I'm saying get the "militants" or whatever you want to call them into a real fight and take no prisoners. Show them that Americans are not afraid to beat the crap out of Fallujah-ians.

[Fox2]

Yard Ape: I'm not talking about levelling the whole city. I'm saying get the "militants" or whatever you want to call them into a real fight and take no prisoners. Show them that Americans are not afraid to beat the crap out of Fallujah-ians.

That is the wrong way to go about it. Because then what happens is you incite the "us and them" mentality. As much as it pains us, we have to remember the big picture. Thankfully, our guys over there have more self-control than we here at home might.

The right way to do it (and thankfully, the way it looks like it will be done, according to the Military spokespeople), is to go in, and arrest/kill those responsible. They are making it clear that the Fallujans that weren't a part of this, and just want to go on living, will be helped. The ones that did this, and those who want to do more, will get what is coming to them.

[Pooga]

1) Do the Fallujans that weren't apart of this want help? Or were they not apart of "it" because they were too busy? Meaning, do we have "sympathizers" in Fallujah?

2) How are you going to arrest those responsible using a raid (or do you use a raid?)?

3) How are you going to kill them without them firing a shot at you?

How do you show them that we won't tolerate this when you don't even know who you're talking to?

[Fox2]

1) Do the Fallujans that weren't apart of this want help? Or were they not apart of "it" because they were too busy? Meaning, do we have "sympathizers" in Fallujah?

2) How are you going to arrest those responsible using a raid (or do you use a raid?)?

3) How are you going to kill them without them firing a shot at you?

How do you show them that we won't tolerate this when you don't even know who you're talking to?

Some valid questions there.

1) It depends on who you ask. I would say there might be some "sympathizers," but the people I am referencing are those that just want to get on with life, and don't care about violence or resisting the Coalition. They may not agree with the war, their current political status, or the Coalition presence, but they just want to get on with it. These are the people we are going to help.

Questions 2, 3, and 4, are handled by smarter people than I within the Military. At the moment this area is Marine jurisdiction. I have heard that they are taking a look at the pictures and video from the incidents, trying to put names to faces, and addresses to names. The last two questions are about tactics and methods, and the answers lie in our men's training.

Thankfully, the Coalition authorities and the military planners all know better than we do about what to do, and I trust them fully to do the right thing.

As always, just my thoughts.

** Edited for spelling mistakes (Okay, it was one, but it nagged at me!) **

[Yard Ape]

Well said Fox2.

[Pooga]

Oh, the Marines are in Fallujah? Hohoho…! Something's gonna happen! :D

[MK133]

Ok, anyone have guess as to what the name of the operation will be?

I guess "Operation Blackwater" or "Operation Payback"

[MaDuce]

Some hollywood actors will prolly rush to the aid of the fullujaens and get shred to bits by 25mm ammo.

[Yard Ape]

Iraqi cleric condemns mutilation of Americans
Globe & Mail
Friday, Apr. 2, 2004 (http://globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040402.wiraq0402/BNStory/International/)

Fallujah, Iraq — A Muslim cleric in Fallujah condemned Friday the mutilation of four slain American contractors in the city but did not criticize the killings

...

About 600 worshippers gathered at the Hmood al-Mahmood Mosque in Fallujah, just a few blocks from the site of the ambush, to hear Sheik Fawzi Nameq's sermon.

“Islam does not condone the mutilation of the bodies of the dead,” Sheik Nameq said.

“Why do you want to bring destruction to our city? Why do you want to bring humiliation to the faithful? My brothers, wisdom is required here,” said Sheik Nameq, who refrained from making a judgment on the killings.

Clerics in Fallujah strongly oppose the U.S.-led occupation and often use sermons to criticize U.S. authority.

The charred remains of the four Americans were dragged through the streets for hours after insurgents ambushed their vehicles. Two of the corpses were hung from a bridge as people beat them with shoes and a pole. Iraqi police eventually collected their remains at the request of U.S. troops.

Senior Fallujah cleric Sheik Khalid Ahmed had said that Muslim preachers in mosques across the city would tell their followers in Friday sermons that the mutilation of the bodies was wrong.

“Prophet Mohammed prohibited even the mutilation of a dead, mad dog and he considered such a thing as religiously forbidden. What happened in Fallujah is a distortion of Islamic principles and it is forbidden in Islam,” he said.

...

A Fallujah city council member, insisting on anonymity, said the council issued a statement Thursday “condemning the mutilation of the bodies because it contradicts the teachings of Islam.”

Police manned regular roadside checkpoints Friday, and there was no sign of U.S. troops in or around the city, where a mood of defiance remained despite the possibility of U.S. military retaliation.

Some people living on the outskirts reported that some families had left their homes for the safety of relatives' dwellings deep inside the city. Traffic was heavy and shops were open.

“Islam bans what was done to the bodies, but the Americans are as brutal as the youths who burned and mutilated the bodies,” said Mahdi Ahmed Saleh, a 61-year-old retired primary school principal who runs a grocery store.

Mohammed Mikhlef, a 45-year-old contractor, added: “We just do not know what the Americans will do now. But, by God, they are capable of so much cruelty.”

U.S. commanders defended their decision not to send forces into Fallujah to retrieve the bodies, which were picked later by Iraqi police.

Gen. Kimmitt said U.S. forces did not respond for fear of ambushes and the possibility that insurgents would use civilians as human shields. “A pre-emptive attack into the city could have taken a bad situation and made it even worse,” he said.

“We are not going to do a pell-mell rush into the city. It will be deliberate, it will be precise and it will be overwhelming,” he said. “We will re-establish control of that city. ... It will be at the time and place of our choosing.”

[MaDuce]

They are saying this cuase they know their azz is about to be kicked.

[Yard Ape]

They are saying this cuase they know their azz is about to be kicked.Or, maybe the clerics really area appalled at this violation of Islam.

[MaDuce]

Maybe ,who knows

[Fox2]

The problem with some of these guys who were treated well by Saddam; they will buy any story their media used to feed them. It is a very similar situation to the Palestinians. Years and years and years of hearing lies about the US in printed and broadcast media. Go to Pakistan or Jordan and pick up a mainstream newspaper regarded as "respected", and it's worse than a tabloid. "American soldiers rape the women and eat the remains of the children!" It seems extreme, but that is exactly what is fed to these people every damned day.

It would be like if every day you were told that Eskimos are cannibals, live naked in the arctic regions, and rape polar bears. Every day, day in and day out, you would hear this, without ever really meeting or seeing an Eskimo. Then one day you meet one, and you find that he wears lots of cold-weather clothing, and that he thoroughly enjoys being married to his wife. Your mind would be so embedded with the image you were fed, you would always be thinking, "Sooner or later, I will find him naked in the snow, munching on his neighbor's leg while porking a polar bear." And this would not seem outlandish to you.

It may seem an extreme analogy, but it is the same situation, and the lies they are fed are just as outlandish.

[Yard Ape]

Fox2,
Do you have a psychology or sociology background? I do not, but your example almost looks like an instructional analogy.

[Fox2]

Fox2,
Do you have a psychology or sociology background? I do not, but your example almost looks like an instructional analogy.

If being a psycho counts as background in psychology, well, uh, sure.... :lol:

I have a general interest in psychology and such, but no real background in it.

Excuse me, time for my medication.

[Pooga]

They are saying this cuase they know their azz is about to be kicked.
Heh.

The clerics disapprove of the mutilation but not of the killings. Marvelous. Ask me if I care what the "clerics" say. If there was one thing I could say to the cleric, it'd be, "Hey fack you buddy."

I'd use the eskimo-slandering newspaper as much vaunted toilet paper if I were living in a third-world country. But that's just my two cents.

[MetalBoy]

Ok, anyone have guess as to what the name of the operation will be?

I guess "Operation Blackwater" or "Operation Payback"

"Operation Parking Lot"

[MetalBoy]

I dedicate this song by Judas Priest to the monsters of Fallujah.


Some Heads Are Gonna Roll

You can look to the left and look to the right
But you will live in danger tonight
When the enemy comes he will never be heard
He'll blow your mind and not say a word.
Blinding lights--flashing colors
Sleepless nights...
If the men with the power
Can't keep it under control

Some heads are gonna roll
Some heads are gonna roll
Some heads are gonna roll
Some heads are gonna roll

[Yard Ape]

“Islam bans what was done to the bodies, but the Americans are as brutal as the youths who burned and mutilated the bodies,” said Mahdi Ahmed Saleh, a 61-year-old retired primary school principal who runs a grocery store.

Mohammed Mikhlef, a 45-year-old contractor, added: “We just do not know what the Americans will do now. But, by God, they are capable of so much cruelty.”
Don't make these guys right.

[Uncle Sam]

“Islam bans what was done to the bodies, but the Americans are as brutal as the youths who burned and mutilated the bodies,” said Mahdi Ahmed Saleh, a 61-year-old retired primary school principal who runs a grocery store.

Mohammed Mikhlef, a 45-year-old contractor, added: “We just do not know what the Americans will do now. But, by God, they are capable of so much cruelty.”

:cantbeli:

[Fox2]

Mohammed Mikhlef, a 45-year-old contractor, added: “We just do not know what the Americans will do now. But, by God, they are capable of so much cruelty.”

Morning, ya'll.

My comment about the eskimoes and newspapers and being fed information was in relation to quotes like this.

We, as Americans, look at this quote and I'm sure there is a unified eyebrow raised. "Uh, yeah, we just liberated your ass from a murderer, a rapist, and a tyrant, and we are capable of so much cruelty...yeah, okay, buddy..."

The reason they think this is because they've been fed it. We have to prove them wrong, and show them the extent of the lies they've been force-fed.