Cam and Concealment Thread

[Sabre]

Ok, with the recent proliferation of 'which cammo is teh bestest' threads, in which people post pics of various garments hung in the rose bushes in their back garden and subsequently argue about which is the ultimate invisi-chameleon-fabric; I have decided that instead of being negative, I should start my own thread covering the techniques of camouflage and concealment.

This will just be a simple thread, nothing more than is taught in infantry basic training around the world. My aim is really to show how irrelevant the fabric that your DPMs are made of next to the skills of cam and concealment.

I will try to include good photographic references to illustrate my points, if anyone has any good material, please post it. Anyone is free to contribute, but I would ask the Mods to lock this thread if it descends into another uniform pattern p!ssing contest.

=======================================================

[Sabre]

Righto, lets start.

Why things are seen:

1) Shape - The human body is the most recognisable shape to the human eye. We are 'programmed', if you like, to pick up on the outline of other humans and to recognise them. The outline of a soldier is partly broken up by his equipment and weapon, but as a soldier yourself this in turn becomes 'normal' and so easily recognisable.

The key feature of the human body is the shoulder/head step. We can pick out the right angle shape made by the head rising from the shoulders and instantly recognise it. So the most important area to cam up is the shoulder and helmet.



(snipers using ghillie nets, but the same can be acheived with local cam)

The overall body shape can be hidden by simply adopting different positions. For example, prone rather than kneeling. Kneeling rather than standing. The picture below is at close range, but look at the difference between the two stances.



Camming up equipment will also hide it's distinctive shape.

[Sabre]

2) Silhouette
Leading on from Shape, one must think about the terrain you move through and so we come on to silhouette. Also known as 'skylining', this is the breaking of a natural linear feature with yourself or a piece of equipment. Whether it be a hillock, a wall, or in this case a cliff.



Skylining is avoided by good route selection or the adoption of an appropriate posture (ie prone, as below).

[Digital Marine]

Very good thread!

Looking forward to the rest of the stuff!:)

[Daniel San]

That's some good positive criticism of what has been going on in MP.net's camo department. I like!

Cheers

[bluffcove]

Shine
. Shiny stuff can be seen. Make shiny stuff look dull (by making it join the AGC) or covering it in dirt and black nasty. Alternatively spend some time round the Kingos so that shiny stuff dissappears.

[bluffcove]

there are another 4 S's but I cant remember them.

[Daniel San]

Some more examples of breaking up the human shape :



High res (www.armyimages.forces.gc.ca/netpub/server.np?original=2734&site=clsimages&catalog=clsimages&download)



High res (www.combatcamera.forces.gc.ca/netpub/server.np?original=3651&site=combatcamera&catalog=photos&download)


1. Shape: some things can be recognised instantly by their shape, particularly if they contrast with there surroundings. i.e. the shape of a cadet. The shape of the body needs to be altered to aid concealment.
2. Shine: if an object has a surface that contrasts with its surroundings it is clearly visible, i.e. the surfaces of the skin and the cap badge, and these items need to be disguised.
3. Shadow: in sunlight an object casts a shadow, which gives away its presence, for concealment keep in the shade, the only place to hide from a shadow in inside another one. Remember as the sun moves so does the shadow.
4. Silhouette: any object silhouetted against a contrasting background is clearly visible, smooth flat backgrounds such as water, a field or worst of all the sky should be considered dangerous. An object may also be silhouetted if it is against a background of a different colour. For concealment choose an uneven background such as hedges, bushes, trees and broken ground.
5. Spacing: natural objects are never regularly spaced, regular spaced objects equals man made objects. For concealment avoid regular spacing
6. Movement: the eye is attracted to movement; especially sudden movement for concealment, movement has to be slow and cautious.

But I guess the best camouflage is not being seen by the enemy, ie LOS.

[bluffcove]

Sound - thats another one.

FFS put a rag between your mess tins and dont keep your leatherman, maglite, racing spoon, combti tool, prismatic and whistle in the same pocket!

It doesnt matter how easy to get to it is. Its like walking aorund with a tambourine in your section.

[Sabre]

Cheers lads, I'm doing this in no particular order, just how the pics emerge from DID!

3) Spacing - Regular spacing rarely occurs in nature, allow for uneven spaces between blokes in the section/patrol. Note how the regular spacing in this patrol makes them stand out:

[bluffcove]

Furthermore on shadow:

The black-bits in DPM are there to create shadow and thus an illusion of depth. This is why being caked in mud does not equate to being camoflagued, If you confuse the human eyes ability to percieve depth.......... it really pisses people off (Not sure where I was going with that)

When camming up your kit done paint your eyes black this only enhacens the natural shadow formed by your brow, and makes your face more recognisable. keep your eyes bright and darken your nose to prevent the obvious "T" shape from getting you slotted.

On Kit shadows form across the base of your helmet, try and break up this line (see silhouette) by either scrim, that Israeli pillow case thing, or sticking some local cam in the band.

(local cam means anything local and recently stuck in the ground)

when camming up helmets remeber that should you hit the dirt and start trying to locate the enemy your waving grass around nine inches above yourhead and your bloody obvious, especially as it will probably by at 90* to the rest of the natural flora and fauna.

(shot a pigeon once, im a well warry bastrad)

[Irish]

Another Example of Breaking up Shape.

[Irish]

edit 123456678

[Daniel San]

Chapter 21

Camouflage

In a survival situation, especially in a hostile environment, you may find it necessary to camouflage yourself, your equipment, and your movement. Effective camouflage may mean the difference between survival and capture by the enemy. Camouflage and movement techniques, such as stalking, will also help you get animals or game for food using primitive weapons and skills.

PERSONAL CAMOUFLAGE

21-1. When camouflaging yourself, consider that certain shapes are particular to humans. The enemy will look for these shapes. The shape of a hat, helmet, or black boots can give you away. Even animals know and run from the shape of a human silhouette. Break up your outline by placing small amounts of vegetation from the surrounding area in your uniform, equipment, and headgear. Try to reduce any shine from skin or equipment. Blend in with the surrounding colors and simulate the texture of your surroundings.

SHAPE AND OUTLINE

21-2. Change the outline of weapons and equipment by tying vegetation or strips of cloth onto them. Make sure the added camouflage does not hinder the equipment's operation. When hiding, cover yourself and your equipment with leaves, grass, or other local debris. Conceal any signaling devices you have prepared, but keep them ready for use.

COLOR AND TEXTURE

21-3. Each area of the world and each climatic condition (arctic/winter, temperate/jungle, or swamp/desert) has color patterns and textures that are natural for that area. While color is self-explanatory, texture defines the surface characteristics of something when looking at it. For example, surface textures may be smooth, rough, rocky, leafy, or many other possible combinations. Use color and texture together to camouflage yourself effectively. It makes little sense to cover yourself with dead, brown vegetation in the middle of a large grassy field. Similarly, it would be useless to camouflage yourself with green grass in the middle of a desert or rocky area.

21-4. To hide and camouflage movement in any specific area of the world, you must take on the color and texture of the immediate surroundings. Use natural or man-made materials to camouflage yourself. A few examples include camouflage paint, charcoal from burned paper or wood, mud, grass, leaves, strips of cloth or burlap, pine boughs, and camouflaged uniforms.

21-5. Cover all areas of exposed skin, including face, hands, neck, and ears. Use camouflage paint, charcoal, or mud to camouflage yourself. Cover areas that stick out more and catch more light (forehead, nose, cheekbones, chin, and ears) with a darker color. Cover other areas, particularly recessed or shaded areas (around the eyes and under the chin), with lighter colors. Be sure to use an irregular pattern. Attach vegetation from the area or strips of cloth of the proper color to clothing and equipment. If you use vegetation, replace it as it wilts. As you move through an area, be alert to the color changes and modify your camouflage colors as necessary.

21-6. Figure 21-1 gives a general idea of how to apply camouflage for various areas and climates. Use appropriate colors for your surroundings. The blotches or slashes will help to simulate texture.



Figure 21-1. Camouflage Methods for Specific Areas

SHINE

21-7. As skin gets oily, it becomes shiny. Equipment with worn-off paint is also shiny. Even painted objects, if smooth, may shine. Glass objects such as mirrors, glasses, binoculars, and telescopes shine. You must cover these glass objects when not in use. Anything that shines will automatically attract attention and will give away your location.

21-8. Whenever possible, wash oily skin and reapply camouflage. Skin oil will wash off camouflage, so reapply it frequently. If you must wear glasses, camouflage them by applying a thin layer of dust to the outside of the lenses. This layer of dust will reduce the reflection of light. Cover shiny spots on equipment by painting, covering with mud, or wrapping with cloth or tape. Pay particular attention to covering boot eyelets, buckles on equipment, watches and jewelry, zippers, and uniform insignia. Carry a signal mirror in its designed pouch or in a pocket with the mirror portion facing your body.

SHADOW

21-9. When hiding or traveling, stay in the deepest part of the shadows. The outer edges of the shadows are lighter and the deeper parts are darker. Remember, if you are in an area where there is plenty of vegetation, keep as much vegetation between you and a potential enemy as possible. This action will make it very hard for the enemy to see you as the vegetation will partially mask you from his view. Forcing an enemy to look through many layers of masking vegetation will fatigue his eyes very quickly.

21-10. When traveling, especially in built-up areas at night, be aware of where you cast your shadow. It may extend out around the corner of a building and give away your position. Also, if you are in a dark shadow and there is a light source to one side, an enemy on the other side can see your silhouette against the light.

MOVEMENT

21-11. Movement, especially fast movement, attracts attention. If possible, avoid movement in the presence of an enemy. If capture appears imminent in your present location and you must move, move away slowly, making as little noise as possible. By moving slowly in a survival situation, you decrease the chance of detection and conserve energy that you may need for long-term survival or long-distance evasion.

21-12. When moving past obstacles, avoid going over them. If you must climb over an obstacle, keep your body level with its top to avoid silhouetting yourself. Do not silhouette yourself against the skyline when crossing hills or ridges. When you are moving, you will have difficulty detecting the movement of others. Stop frequently, listen, and look around slowly to detect signs of hostile movement.

NOISE

21-13. Noise attracts attention, especially if there is a sequence of loud noises such as several snapping twigs. If possible, avoid making any noise. Slow your pace as much as necessary to avoid making noise when moving around or away from possible threats.

21-14. Use background noises to cover the noise of your movement. Sounds of aircraft, trucks, generators, strong winds, and people talking will cover some or all the sounds produced by your movement. Rain will mask a lot of movement noise, but it also reduces your ability to detect potential enemy noise.

SCENT

21-15. Whether hunting animals or avoiding the enemy, it is always wise to camouflage the scent associated with humans. Start by washing yourself and your clothes without using soap. This washing method removes soap and body odors. Avoiding strong smelling foods, such as garlic, helps reduce body odors. Do not use tobacco products, candy, gum, or cosmetics.

21-16. You can use aromatic herbs or plants to wash yourself and your clothing, to rub on your body and clothing, or to chew on to camouflage your breath. Pine needles, mint, or any similar aromatic plant will help camouflage your scent from both animals and humans. Standing in smoke from a fire can help mask your scent from animals. While animals are afraid of fresh smoke from a fire, older smoke scents are normal smells after forest fires and do not scare them.

21-17. While traveling, use your sense of smell to help you find or avoid humans. Pay attention to smells associated with humans, such as fire, cigarettes, gasoline, oil, soap, and food. Such smells may alert you to their presence long before you can see or hear them, depending on wind speed and direction. Note the wind's direction and, when possible, approach from or skirt around on the downwind side when nearing humans or animals.

METHODS OF STALKING

21-18. Sometimes you need to move, undetected, to or from a location. You need more than just camouflage to make these moves successfully. The ability to stalk or move without making any sudden quick movement or loud noise is essential to avoiding detection. Always pick your route carefully to keep you concealed; use trenches, slight rises in terrain, thick vegetation for concealment. Avoid lateral movement to the observer unless you have good concealment, otherwise stalk straight in toward the observer.

21-19. You must practice stalking if it is to be effective. Use the following techniques when practicing.

UPRIGHT STALKING

21-20. Take steps about half your normal stride when stalking in the upright position. Such strides help you to maintain your balance. You should be able to stop at any point in that movement and hold that position as long as necessary. Curl the toes up out of the way when stepping down so the outside edge of the ball of the foot touches the ground. Feel for sticks and twigs that may snap when you place your weight on them. If you start to step on one, lift your foot and move it. After making contact with the outside edge of the ball of your foot, roll to the inside ball of your foot, place your heel down, followed by your toes. Then gradually shift your weight forward to the front foot. Lift the back foot to about knee height and start the process over again.

21-21. Keep your hands and arms close to your body and avoid waving them about or hitting vegetation. When moving in a crouch, you gain extra support by placing your hands on your knees. One step usually takes 1 minute to complete, but the time it takes will depend on the situation.

CRAWLING

21-22. Crawl on your hands and knees when the vegetation is too low to allow you to walk upright without being seen. Move one limb at a time and be sure to set it down softly, feeling for anything that may snap and make noise. Be careful that your toes and heels do not catch on vegetation.

PRONE STAKING

21-23. To stalk in the prone position, you do a low, modified push-up on your hands and toes, moving yourself forward slightly, and then lowering yourself again slowly. Avoid dragging and scraping along the ground as this makes excessive noise and leaves large trails for trackers to follow.

ANIMAL STALKING

21-24. Before stalking an animal, select the best route. If the animal is moving, you will need an intercepting route. Pick a route that puts objects between you and the animal to conceal your movement from it. By positioning yourself in this way, you will be able to move faster, until you pass that object. Some objects such as large rocks and trees may totally conceal you, and others such as small bushes and grass may only partially conceal you. Pick the route that offers the best concealment and requires the least amount of effort.

21-25. Keep your eyes on the animal and stop when it looks your way or turns its ears your way, especially if it suspects your presence. As you get close, squint your eyes slightly to conceal both the light-dark contrast of the whites of the eyes and any shine from your eyes. Keep your mouth closed so that the animal does not see the whiteness or shine of your teeth.

ANTITRACKING

21-26. Along with camouflage of your body, you need to camouflage your movement from visual trackers. Antitracking techniques should be used; countertracking techniques are of little use to the evader, as they would pinpoint his location or route. During movement this can be accomplished by using the following methods:

Restore vegetation—Use a stick to lift the vegetation you crushed down during movement through it. This can slow you down and it is hard to tell if you are being effective.

Brush out tracks—Use a tree branch to brush or pat out tracks in open ground. This is effective in concealing the number in the party, but leaves obvious signs in itself.

Use hard or stony ground—Using this type of terrain minimizes the signs you leave slowing the visual tracker.

Make abrupt direction changes—Using this technique combined with the use of hard or stony ground can be very effective in slowing the visual tracker as it will be much harder to detect the direction change.

Use well-used paths—Although the use of paths is not advisable, there may be times you can use them to your advantage. For example, if you have been in an area long enough to surveil the path to determine the traffic patterns, you could use the path prior to a farmer moving a heard of cows down the path, eliminating your sign.

Use foot coverings—They can assist in aging or virtually eliminating your signs. Examples include sandbags, rags, old socks, or commercial foot coverings made from imitation sheepskin (these seem to work the best).

Change footgear—Use this method in an area such as hard or stony ground. Vary the tread pattern.

Use custom footgear—Militaries generally have a standard issue footgear, although with the world economy, this is changing. If you know that the area you are working in has a standard issue footgear, you may want to acquire a pair or have that tread pattern put on your boots.

Walk backwards—This can be useful at times but there are pitfalls to avoid. Avoid turning your foot out. When you look over your left shoulder your left foot tends to turn outward and visa versa. Avoid dragging dirt backwards. Try to place your footfalls so that the toe indention is deeper than your heel indention to give the appearance of moving forward.

Confuse the start point—Whatever the point on the ground you start your evasion, try to confuse it by walking numerous cloverleaf patterns out of and back into it before you leave on your initial route (this can assist in delaying dog trackers also).

Use streams, lakes, waterways—This is a judgement call on your part. Ask yourself: Is the stream moving in the direction you need to go? Is it fast or slow moving water? Will it put you that much farther ahead of the trackers? (Note: You will leave more signs upon exiting the water.)

Crossing roads or paths with the traffic pattern—When crossing roads or paths try to cross with the direction of travel, not perpendicular, this will assist in your tracks blending into normal traffic patterns and making them harder to follow.

Careful placement of footfalls leaving little heel or toe dig—Try to leave as little sign as possible. Last but not least, always vary your techniques so as not to educate the tracker as to what to look for if he loses the track!

ANTIDOG TRACKING

21-27. When trying to elude dog trackers always remember you are trying to beat the handler not the dog! Whatever you do, it should be done to either tire the handler or decrease the handler's confidence in his dog. Some techniques to use against dog tracker teams are as follows:

Open ground—Although this is a danger area, if the wind is high it will blow the scent to vegetated areas; thus the team will not be directly on your tracks and it will slow the team's progression.

Thick terrain—Using a zigzag pattern of movement will slow and tire the handler and possibly decrease the handler's confidence.

Hard or stony ground—In high winds or high temperatures these areas will dissipate your scent quicker, increasing the chance of the dog losing the track.

Crowded places—If the dog is not scent-specific trained, and you move through an area where many other people have recently been he may lose the track.

Freshly plowed or fertilized fields—The dog may lose the track in these areas due to the overpowering scent of fresh dirt and human or animal manure used as fertilizer (do not rely too much on this theory).

Speed—Try to maintain a constant speed. Try not to run. Running increases the scent, due to more soil and vegetation disturbance and more body odor from sweat or adrenaline.

Transportation—Using a vehicle will greatly increase your time and distance but you could still be tracked; however, it would be at a much slower pace.

http://www.rk19-bielefeld-mitte.de/survival/FM/21.htm

[maple.leaf]

Great thread guys!

[Amandil]

Agreed, this is a very cool thread. Although I don't think that the point of the previous batch of "which camo patterns are better" threads was that one's skills of cam and concealment are irrelevant given a superior uniform fabric! Judging by the pics posted in this thread so far (nice pics, btw), part of concealment apparently involves picking a uniform that matches the surroundings: an arid pattern for arid surroundings, a woodland one for wooded surroundings...although the blokes below might have picked the arid pattern for running about in the prairies (had they the choice?):

[gafkiwi]

One thing you got to remember when it comes to cam patterns/colours is, What works in this particular terrain/vegetation may not be suitable for the terrain 5mins down the road. Especially Like in the example of the previous pic of the poms with the warrior. Being a mounted/mech group who may cover a ****e load of ground, One minute they're in open rolling grasslands next minute theyre in dense bush next time they debus they're in tussock covered open terrain, Standard dpm is a good medium.
By applying the "5 S's and 1 M"
Shape (straight lines, edges)
Silhouette (skylining or contrasting with your background)
Shadow (both cast and contained)
Spacing (regularity,tendancy of man)
Surface (NZ army uses instead of shine,as its the surface or its texture that creates shine or lack of)
Movement (speaks for itself)
you can counter them.

They are pretty much the same across the different western armies. When we conduct "Cam and Concealment" stands initally things like ghillies and vails would be used but eventually progressed to no cam paint, dpm trou, green t-shirt boots and a j-hat just using depth.
Good depth will always elimnate the S's and M and properly done will also defeat TI.

Any fool can through on a Ghillie suit and hide, but a well trained soldier or/and person with high standards of field craft will be able to find or create depth and use it effectively. Finally if you don't need to be in LOS of someone/enemy, Don't be, Get into dead ground

[California Joe]

Excellent thread Sabre. But then I always read your posts and think that mate. Thanks to Bluff for excellent points also and thank the rest of you for not pissing on it......

[RECON DOC]

One thing you got to remember when it comes to cam patterns/colours is, What works in this particular terrain/vegetation may not be suitable for the terrain 5mins down the road.

Excellent point, one example of this would be when I was stationed in Alaska.
Up there the terrain can vary drastically from tundra to muskeg swamp to bare hill side to forested mountian side. In some instances in distances of a klick or less. We were issued the the standard 'overwhites' and would don or remove various peices of the set accordingly.

IE, in open terrain, tundra or bare hillsides, we usually wore the complete ensamble and many of us would improvise additional camo for weapons, LBE and helmets, (they didn't issue white covers at that time, logic being that the hood on the smock would suffice) fashoned from bedsheets and white tape and sometime a nice piece or two of the white camo netting if we could get our hands on some.

While in wooded terrain we would shed the tops and ruck covers, because while on a patrol our upper bodies were, for the most part, at the same level as the lower branches and trunks, while our legs tended to visually fuse with the snow. It was very effective and on a few occasions we were passed by only a few yards, unnoticed by the OPFOR, by merely freezing
in place (No pun intended) and maintaining complete silence. and even during movement (Typically patroling was slow, deliberate, and watchful) it was difficult to detect.

We were fortunate to have had a few former SF and Ranger NCOs in our platoon that took the art of camo to heart and trained us accordingly.

Well that's my two cents. Great thread thanks, lets keep it alive.

[East Scout]

Great thread guys..Very well done..Would you mind if i steal some info and pics for use in my forum in the Camo section? Im up to my ass in getting info together and it sure would save me a lot of time..

ES

[RECON DOC]

Here a few examples of varied terrain and camo in AK. I'm having a hard go of locating pics so if anyone can share please do. :) the pic on the right is at Wainwright, the center is a shot of Donelly dome in delta junction and a NG M-113 at Ft Richardson.

[Sabre]

Here's a mix of winter/arctic terrain pics showing the use of whites.


High plateau


Mountainous terrain with bare rock


Moving down to lower altitude, very little snow.

[Sabre]

Agreed, this is a very cool thread. Although I don't think that the point of the previous batch of "which camo patterns are better" threads was that one's skills of cam and concealment are irrelevant given a superior uniform fabric! Judging by the pics posted in this thread so far (nice pics, btw), part of concealment apparently involves picking a uniform that matches the surroundings: an arid pattern for arid surroundings, a woodland one for wooded surroundings...although the blokes below might have picked the arid pattern for running about in the prairies (had they the choice?):


Indeed, your DPMs come into the 'Surface' part of the S's and M. As others have said though, terrain can change greatly in a short distance/time. The application of the other principles will compensate for the inevitable shortcomings of the pattern.

If you look in the pic you quoted, even at this short distance the most obvious feature on the middle soldier isn't his DPM pattern, but the shadow forming under him. Even if he were to wear dessies, this shadow would still be there. They could enhance their cam by putting the dry grass in their kit, allowing them to blend in better.

At 'battle ranges' of 200-300m, the pattern of the uniform doesn't register. All soldiers will appear as dark shapes moving in front of you. This is where the other S's and M come in.

[Catch22]

Another Example of Breaking up Shape.

I'm no expert but basing on what I was instructed this guy just screwed Shine (surface) and Shape rules with his AI muzzle device. Hard to tell if his scope has the killflash mounted on too. So he's only partially good example IIRC.

[East Scout]

This fella has his shape disruption going well..

[East Scout]

Here is a soldier using foliage to help conceal himself..

[East Scout]

I'm no expert but basing on what I was instructed this guy just screwed Shine (surface) and Shape rules with his AI muzzle device. Hard to tell if his scope has the killflash mounted on too. So he's only partially good example IIRC.


I agree...He should have it at the least painted..But if he applies camo materials to it, it will blow off when he fires and compromise his position..especially if it blows off for a distance and floats slowly to the ground..The muzzle blast at the tip will produce a shock wave moving anything thats on, under or around the muzzle blast..

ES

[Irish]

I'm no expert but basing on what I was instructed this guy just screwed Shine (surface) and Shape rules with his AI muzzle device. Hard to tell if his scope has the killflash mounted on too. So he's only partially good example IIRC.


It was for the picture..trust me.

[East Scout]

This is from a British Army Manual.(i think)..Its a scetch drawing of camo for the individual..It was labled that is not to much and not to little and that the foliage was properly placed..

[bluffcove]

that is fine provided he doesnt wear webbing.

webbing casts a shadow down on to the thighs, and accentuates the shape of the upper body with the yoke creating two vertical dark lines and a horizontal.

too little cam is often better than two much, Piling a small forest into your webbing stras is fairly useless onuess you are doing CTR or sneaky beaky stuff. for the most part, shoulders helmet and cuffs are sufficient.

[Catch22]

It was for the picture..trust me.

No doubt's it was a promo shot, I know the usual drill with staged photos, we do the same thing. But nonetheless it was something to be pointed out, according to the Sabre's intention and purpose of this thread as I understand it...

[RECON DOC]

...................................

[Jippo]

Couple of vehicle camos.

Tank in a bad firing position with a bad camo job. Turret shines, middle of a clearing, sky background, etc...




Tank in a reasonably good firing position photographed 50m in front of the position. Hull with snow camo fabric, turret green as background in such weather. Position of tank marked with the arrow.




Typical camo job. Small trees and branches used to break outline of the tank. Same principles apply as with individual camo with natural materials. Worth noting is that such camo also quite effectively conceals the tank against NIR/TIR observation. With individual riflemen it really works the same: without a natural camo/ghillie/net they will be clearly visible in thermal, no matter what color their dress.




Example how the previous works with snow blending in even better:




Camo job with netting and trees/branches.




-jippo

[bluffcove]

excellent pics - good examples of disturbing the outline and creating vertical lines on a vehicle which is recognised by its strong horizontals.

[Irish]

No doubt's it was a promo shot, I know the usual drill with staged photos, we do the same thing. But nonetheless it was something to be pointed out, according to the Sabre's intention and purpose of this thread as I understand it...


During My Sniper Course when I was out doing a Cam&Con or a Stalk..,never once when I was seen did the OP say it was because of my flash hider..

[arctrooper]

Thats cool and all but what about black or urban camouflage how well do they work and are there any pictures of though's 2 camouflages of how they look though night vision

[gafkiwi]

Thats one thing thats always impressed me about russian armour, Is their really low silhouette's especially the MBTs

[Catch22]

^At the price of being goddamn cramped inside, of course ;-)

[gafkiwi]

^At the price of being goddamn cramped inside, of course ;-)

Oh So True, But then again our Lav 3s are pretty big fVckers as wagons go and yet everyone including the dismounts in the back can sympathise with sardines after being jammed in there...

[gafkiwi]

During My Sniper Course when I was out doing a Cam&Con or a Stalk..,never once when I was seen did the OP say it was because of my flash hider..

I take it did you do your Cse with the AW, Does your guys model have the big "Chunky" muzzel brake like in the pic or the smaller one for fitting a suppressor? Us (NZ)and the Aussies use the smaller one and I've seen the brits with a mix. I worked with some Irish Rangers in Timor in 99 but can't remember what ones they had.

[Irish]

I take it did you do your Cse with the AW, Does your guys model have the big "Chunky" muzzel brake like in the pic or the smaller one for fitting a suppressor? Us (NZ)and the Aussies use the smaller one and I've seen the brits with a mix. I worked with some Irish Rangers in Timor in 99 but can't remember what ones they had.


here you go...

[Catch22]

Oh So True, But then again our Lav 3s are pretty big fVckers as wagons go and yet everyone including the dismounts in the back can sympathise with sardines after being jammed in there...

Hitch a ride in BMP then, gaf

But yea our new Patria APC's "Rosomak" (Volverine) are huge too but with full house in the back you got this helpless sardine feel as well.

But, back on topic

[Sand Man]

Are thermal scopes a very effective way to locate camouflaged enemies?

[Jippo]

^At the price of being goddamn cramped inside, of course ;-)

Well Leo 2 is almost as bad, except for the loader of course.


-jippo

[Jippo]

Are thermal scopes a very effective way to locate camouflaged enemies?

You can camo for thermals as well, but normal BDU will not do. You must have a 3-d camo with enough air in between to insulated the heat of your body from the outer layers of the camo.


-jippo

[bluffcove]

Russian BMPs were dsigned as IFVs and not APC / AFV.
They were designed to work with the infantry during the assault as an independent group as was seen in Agfhanistan, and consequently they are low enough to be able to hide in the same places as people.

A BMP can hide behind a hedgerow and the firing ports meant they would drive onto a position and neutralise it before even getting out of the doors.

Did some work with guys whod served in E'German with hte Russians who never ceased to be amazed at the things a BMP could get away with.

[gafkiwi]

The first pic is of a sniper on a range. Even though its taken on a flat open range you can see the "Why things are seen" principles the ghillie, vail and rifle sleeve are attempting to negate, With the snipers shoulders, head and rifle blurring into one.
[/URL]
This pic is looking at the muzzle brake of an AW 3m to the front, Looking straight through the camera man (me)to the observers approx 180m away. the most visable black shadow is the muzzle brake and the little dot above it is a cone over the scope, taking it from contained shadow of 42mmm to one of 10mm. The depth to the snipers front in the form of tussock, starts 10m in front of his muzzle, TI 180m away would not penetrate that much depth, Needless to say the "Student Sniper" in the photo passed that stalk. Hell in that position he couldve been naked and passed!!!
(http://imageshack.us)
This is just a pic of an AW sleeved up prior to a stalk, its sleeved up for use in the open country. Showing how the Shape, Surface and the Silhouette have been altered.

How ever if you ain't that good at that kinda stuff .... Don't hide in close,..... Just get a bigger and Blast him from further away!!!!!
[URL=http://imageshack.us] (http://imageshack.us)

[Irish]

Like I said in an earlier post,your not gonna see the flash hider at 180m, even with bino's.

[gafkiwi]

Like I said in an earlier post,your not gonna see the flash hider at 180m, even with bino's.

Exactly, It was hard enough to pick it out at 3m.
As for TI, Its not the all seeing eye that some make out and is nothing like most computer games would let you think. It can be defeated the same way you avoid detection from vision or any other optic...Just with a little more work and some imagination, especially if you army isnt gonna buy any of the "Flash" TI proof kit that the company reps are showing off at demos and trials.

[Irish]

Exactly, It was hard enough to pick it out at 3m.
As for TI, Its not the all seeing eye that some make out and is nothing like most computer games would let you think. It can be defeated the same way you avoid detection from vision or any other optic...Just with a little more work and some imagination, especially if you army isnt gonna buy any of the "Flash" TI proof kit that the company reps are showing off at demos and trials.


would one of those emergency blankets (the silver foil one)not defeat it??
cover your body in one of those...

[gafkiwi]

It has to be used in conjunction with other forms of cam though, or it will stand out just as much, but as a definate cold shape. Black out curtains like the ones you rig up in tents (green onside,silver the other)are just as good or if not better.

[Catch22]

Our MP Special Detachments purchased some of the overpriced Saab Barracudas (nicknamed instantly as the "big birds") in order to get TI protective individual camouflage for the sniper teams, alas after some testing they turned out to be sucky for stalking (especially in wet conditions), and guys want classical Ghillies with something like LBT's reinforced base. Barracudas seem to be ok for some recon but idea of employing them for sniper use failed.



And as for the muzzle device issue - There were some pictures on the fora posted by some Norge member (can't find them right now) from his course showing it may sometimes stand out from otherwise well prepared firing positon.

[gafkiwi]

That was one of the products brands a company we had come over to show us, this one was good in that it crammed up quite small but that was with out any extra cam attached, but As per normal we didnt even get a look in with it because of the $$$$$$$$$ it cost. It was really interesting demo though they had the huge versions for AFVs as well.

[winchester_down]

Are thermal scopes a very effective way to locate camouflaged enemies?







i was involved with a unit that hid on exposed rock faces that absorbed the sunlight in the day and retained some of it at night to try and make less of a contrast with the body through the thermal scope,
thats a solution that is not easily available though, i dont know if i'd do it

[gafkiwi]

If your relying on that alone to hide from TI, let alone other optics you'd be setting your self up for a fall.
Its not the rocks temperature alone that would mask your presence there, but the ground clutter created by the rocks, bushes and dead fall in the sight.
The main problem I see with this is by sighting yourself on an exposed rock face you go against one of the priciples for sighting any position....
Withdrawl/Escape routes, No matter how good your cam is, When you have to move of your posy your gonna be seen.

[winchester_down]

yeah thats true mate,
sorry :bash: my mistake yeah they were actually trying to defeat helo thermal imagery,
the rocks were'nt out in the middle of no where though, they had trees and shrubs around irregular rock formations (with gaps between which privided fire positions and withdraw routes, )

but i do agree its not a solution that you would rely on itself

cya

[Psycomore]

This is me back in August on Exercise with the ACF all camd up lol. well partially camd up as most of the cam cream had come off by this point & the camera flash doesnt help it lol. It was a light green base coat with black & dark green stripes, the usual U.S style lol
http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5250/img41027mg9.jpg

[bluffcove]

Can you increase the size.

Roll your cuffs down and do something about your neck - and itd be good.

[Psycomore]

i did do my neck & camd up my arms but it wore off lol,

[bluffcove]

Im no better here are some of mine. Again, neck is a bit of a give away on some.

http://img175.imageshack.us/my.php?image=persecrp4.jpg

[Sabre]

^and your ears, hands....


Psychomore, stand up straight man! Hold that weapon properly too! Lastly, bin that Yank crap hat!

p-)

[stoddy9311]

I saw a demo where light was used to camouflage a vehicle on the skyline.

lots of low wattage bulbs all over the vehicle.

from 500metres away, the vehicle was invisible.

[Ezekiel25:17]

Me in Okinawa. The BDUs worked well. Sweatin so much I gad to reapply like every 40 minutes.

[Thunder]

(does break up the human silhouette)

[Psycomore]

^and your ears, hands....


Psychomore, stand up straight man! Hold that weapon properly too! Lastly, bin that Yank crap hat!

p-)

that yank crap hat is a USMC cover lol & was given 2 me by a Royal Marine lol sooo i cherish it:hug: shal i bin my vest ,boots & knee pads to ? they're yankey lol

[Blade_Zero]

I havn't seen ARD's mentioned yet. The Anti Reflection Device is a filter for the objective lense of optics, mainly binos & scopes (night and day). There is at least one example of a sniper being detected by reflection and being engaged by a counter sniper (Hathcock) putting the crosshairs on the glint.


Snipercountry has some good examples of urban cammo, designed to resemble brick & rubble. They also recomend draping some burlap over the muzzle, it lifts as the bullet pushes air down the barrel.
http://www.snipercountry.com/photogallery/Rubbleba.jpg
http://www.snipercountry.com/photogallery/4inrubbl.jpg

Supressors could also be considered part of camo, as the mask the origin of rifle fire.

[blacksheep]

Hello guys,

I am looking for material for a camo net.
It has to be 10 ft to 7 ft
Colour = Green
It is the net that this comrad is still using


If anyone knows were i can buy it please give me a note.

Thanks

[bluffcove]

its called scrim

[triggerhappy15]

um, how exactly would one camouflage a helmet with netting, scrim, etc?

[IDF_TANKER]

Me in the Negev desert. Desert powder works really well as camo in desert.p-)

[Snoshi]

You with your tank crew?

[IDF_TANKER]

You with your tank crew?
Nope, other tank commanders - after a jeep drive before night tank driving exercise.

[Sand Man]

Nope, other tank commanders - after a jeep drive before night tank driving exercise.

That pic is 'shopped, right?

[IDF_TANKER]

That pic is 'shopped, right?

Not a single pixel. Why?
(Well, except the face blurring:))

[winchester_down]

Not a single pixel. Why?
(Well, except the face blurring:))

I can see how he thought it was "shopped"

The desert dust gives the outlines the pastel effect that is applied o many images in photoshop.

Cool pic though

[Sand Man]

Not a single pixel. Why?
(Well, except the face blurring:))

Oh, sorry.

Just like what Winchester said. :)