Protest petition by IDF reservists back from the war

[GiladS]

The following is the text of a petition signed by IDF reservists who served in the Spearhead Brigade in Lebanon, sent to Defense Minister Amir Peretz and IDF Chief of Staff Dan Halutz in protest at the handling of the war by the government and senior military officials:

We, fighters and commanders at the Spearhead [Hod Hachanit] Brigade, were called up to enlist under an emergency mobilization order [Tzav 8] on July 30, 2006. Our attendance was complete in all battalions.

As we were signing on the battle equipment and weapons, we knew that we were signing for much more. We left behind wives and children, girlfriends and families. We put aside our jobs and livelihoods; we were prepared to carry out our mission under the most difficult of conditions, in heat, thirst or hunger.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gifhttp://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gifAt the back of his mind, each and every one of us knew, that for the just cause of protecting the citizens of Israel, we would even put our lives on the line.

But there was one thing we were not and would not be willing to accept: We were unwilling to accept indecisiveness. The war's aim, which was not defined clearly, was even changed in the course of the fighting.

The indecisiveness manifested itself in inaction, in not carrying out operational plans, and in canceling all the missions we were given during the fighting. This led to prolonged stays in hostile territory, without an operational purpose and out of unprofessional considerations, without seeking to engage in combat with the enemy.

The "cold feet" of the decision-makers were evident everywhere. To us the indecisiveness expressed deep disrespect for our willingness to join the ranks and fight and made us feel as though we had been spat on, since it contradicts the principles and values of warfare upon which we were trained at the Israel Defense Forces.

The heavy feeling that in the echelons above us there is nothing but under-preparation, insincerity, lack of foresight and inability to make rational decisions, leads to the question - were we called up for nothing?

We are now on the day after, and it seems that the immorality and the absence of any shame are the fig-leaves to be used in order to cover up for the blunders. The blunders of the past six years and the under-preparation of the army have been carried on our backs - the backs of the fighters. In order to face the next battle prepared - and this may happen soon - a thorough and fundamental change must take place.

The crisis of confidence between us as fighters and the higher echelons will not be resolved without a thorough and worthy investigative commission under the auspices of the state. When the commission completes its task, conclusions must be drawn both on the level of strategic planning and national security, and on the personal level of the parties involved.

We paid a heavy price in order to fight and come out of the battle victorious, and we feel this has been denied of us. We will all attend calls to enlist in the future for any mission we will be required to complete, but we would like to know that these missions will be part of a clear objective and will be carried out by striving to engage in combat.

As soldiers and citizens we expect a response at your earliest convenience,

We the undersigned

Fighters and officers of the Spearhead Brigade
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif

Link (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/753032.html)

Hope that this is just the begining of the "catharsis" stage.

[Elemental666]

Very good...

[CPL Trevoga]

Fighters and officers of the Spearhead Brigade!

As Donald Rumsfeld said: "You fight with an army you have, not you one you wish you had."

Hezballa was fighting without air support and tank support, you don't see them bitchin' and complainin' and writin' letters and shhit.

Cpl T over and out.

[GiladS]

Fighters and officers of the Spearhead Brigade!

As Donald Rumsfeld said: "You fight with an army you have, not you one you wish you had."

Hezballa was fighting without air support and tank support, you don't see them bitchin' and complainin' and writin' letters and shhit.

Cpl T over and out.

In the IDF you are tought that if you see that something is wrong, you fix it.

This as a pose to your approach that you should just go with your head against the wall.

Also most of the objections in the petition are against the government and not the army.

And you are right, the IDF is nothing like Hizbollah... and thank God for that.

[GiladS]

A battalion commander's anger
By YEHUDA AVNER (editors@jpost.com)



I have known Danny (a pseudonym) for many years but never have I seen him as angry as now. He is a commander of a reserve battalion in the armored corps and a moshav farmer in civilian life. His epaulets rank him as major.
Tall, muscular, bulky, in his late forties, he cuts a dashing figure speeding in his armored jeep through a curtain of diesel fumes and whirling dust alongside his clanking, snorting column of Merkava tanks returning to base from Lebanon.

Danny is angry at the last three chiefs of staff - Ehud Barak, Shaul Mofaz, and Moshe Ya'alon - for having neglected the land forces in favor of the air force, for sacrificing ground mobility on the altar of high-tech wizardry, and for squandering tank specialists in the nooks and crannies of the intifada.

Danny is angry at them for slashing the army budget by 13 percent, and for downgrading the reserves by a whopping 25 percent. To be in top form, a tank reservist needs a five-day refresher exercise each year. Most hardly got that in the course of three years, others in the space of five, and yet others none at all.

Danny is angry at the rushed fashion his reservists were mobilized, with depleted provisions, outdated equipment, and insufficient supplies. Their transition from family normality to a place of hazard and death was too abrupt to allow for battle conditioning.
His reservists, living by a bond that is impossible to describe and impossible to break, had too little time to pound themselves into front-line discipline through tough exercise, ruthless discipline, and absolute obedience. Some were so out-of-shape they caved in under the grueling stress.

DANNY IS angry at the lack of aptitude of the younger enlisted recruits. Tankists by designation but drafted into the intifada as foot soldiers by necessity, their stance was not that of tank crews but of crack commandos.
Full of drive and guts, they know more about tracking down terrorists in the labyrinths of the refugee camps in Jenin and Nablus than a tank's maneuverability, technology, and self-protection mechanisms in Lebanon.

Inevitably, the first such crews to cross the blue line had little notion of how to function in the forbidding and grim terrain of the fractured Lebanese battlefields, with their steep hills, dry stream beds, twisting roads, deep ravines, and Hizbollah's formidable anti-tank arsenal.
Danny is angry at the armchair pundits for disparaging the formidability of Israel's main battle-tank, the Merkava.
Its latest version, the Merkava 4, is perhaps the finest in the world. Born of necessity in the seventies when countries refused to sell Israel their main-line tanks, a brilliant armor tactician named General Israel Tal conceived the Merkava whose latest innovative design combines maximum fire power and maneuverability with paramount crew safety. There is no such thing as an impregnable tank, but the Merkava 4 is the closest thing to one.

NOW IN its fourth generation, the Merkava 4 proved its mettle in the harshest tank battle of the war, fought in a precipitous gorge west of the crook of the Litani River in the central sector - the battle of Wadi Saluki.

Two of the eight Merkava 4s were knocked out of commission and their commander was mortally wounded, caught in the sights of long-range, Russian-made, Syrian-supplied, laser-beamed, self-propelled Kornet anti-tank missiles, with their lethal dual warheads that penetrate the armor and then detonate incendiary blasts within.

But the reserve commander saved the day, rushing to the rescue of the other six by leading their climb up sheer slopes to the top of the gorge, an ascent few other tanks in the world could navigate. In all, four crewmen died in the battle of Saluki, a battle which was an unqualified triumph of the Merkava 4. Had those tanks been of an earlier generation, not equipped with state-of-the-art technology and active self-protection mechanisms, 50 crewmen might well have perished.


DANNY IS angry at being caught off-guard by a highly sophisticated, well-armed guerrilla force, shielded by civilians in villages now laying coated with brown dust from the shattered walls of houses and pockmarked with the debris of battles which time and again one of our generals declared to have been won - places where our wounded were slow to be rescued, where the smell of unbathed, dehydrated men lingered long for lack of logistics, mingling with the stench of blood and medicine and dead bodies.

Danny is angry at the initial reports claiming the enemy was decisively beaten and that Hizbullah's retreat was a rout and a flight. He was suspicious at the lack of the signs of disorganized retreat: why so few prisoners? Where were the jettisoned boots, the dumped weapons and ammunition along the roadsides? Who in Military Intelligence knew of the fight-to-the death doctrine of the fanatical foe, or of the ten-meter deep bunkers and tunnels, impervious to the greasy black puffs of the 130,000 bursting shells which rained down on them through the hot summer sky of this futile campaign?

DANNY IS angry at the strutting Napoleonic pomposity of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Defense Minister Amir Peretz at the war's start, and at their unrealistic war goals, not least the return of our two kidnapped soldiers.

Standing now amid the tumbled shambles of Israel's hopes, they remain magically unperturbed with a marvelous incapacity to admit error. All is laid at the door of the generals: had but the prime minister been told this, retreat would have been an advance; had but the defense minister been told that, defeat a victory.

Danny is angry at a government whose conduct of the war was marked by sluggishness, negligence, divided counsel, and fatal misjudgments. Lax management at home translated into lax management in the field causing contrary and confusing orders. Once divinity of doctrine was questioned by the troops, there could be no return to perfect faith.

And thus it was that on the very eve of the cease-fire, the cabinet squirmed uncomfortably through a long summer morning and afternoon, unready and unwilling to grasp the nettle until it was too late, until there was hardly any point any more to what they said and did, until more young men had to die.

Like a fated creature blown by the winds of Homeric gods, they did not change direction. Cutting losses, removing blunder, altering course - these are repugnant to this government, to any government. Admitting error is out of the question. Everyone has an alibi.
Danny is angry most of all at the shirkers of Shenkin Street - a metaphor for the bon ton, chattering, elitist draft dodgers who mock and scoff and sneer and leer at every symbol of Jewish patriotism which he and his fellow reservists cherish.

A wise prince aught always be a good asker, said Machiavelli. What Israel needs now are great askers. Danny and his angry men are the greatest askers of all.


Link (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=1&cid=1154525926212&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

.....

[NimDod]

Fighters and officers of the Spearhead Brigade!

As Donald Rumsfeld said: "You fight with an army you have, not you one you wish you had."

Hezballa was fighting without air support and tank support, you don't see them bitchin' and complainin' and writin' letters and shhit.

Cpl T over and out.

some could say that Israeli reservists are volinteers (because they can just not show up when they are called), and they get very little for doing so.
the IDF cant win wars with out reservists and it has to keep this very small percentage of the population happy in order that the keep on showing when they are called to.

if someone ask you to risk u'r life, risk u'r job, leave u'r family for a whole month each year untill u'r 41 years old for only 70% of u'r average salery while getting screwed with low grade and old equipment - would you volunteer and do it?

[CPL Trevoga]

In the IDF you are tought that if you see that something is wrong, you fix it.

This as a pose to your approach that you should just go with your head against the wall.

Also most of the objections in the petition are against the government and not the army.

And you are right, the IDF is nothing like Hizbollah... and thank God for that.

All I'm sayin' that you don't critisize IDF and Israli goverment in public. Go through your chain of command.

[Ratamacue]

All I'm sayin' that you don't critisize IDF and Israli goverment in public. Go through your chain of command.Unit, Corps, God, country?

[tanks_alot]

All I'm sayin' that you don't critisize IDF and Israli goverment in public. Go through your chain of command.

After the Yom Kipur war, a single reservist that set in protest in front of the Knesset set in motion the end of the Golda Meir goverment.

politicians in general will cover their asses instead of trying fix what's broken so you shouldn't expect them to figure out what they've done wrong unless you'll pressure them because it will make them look bad and thats all they really care about.

[inche yao?]

And you are right, the IDF is nothing like Hizbollah... and thank God for that.

I am sure God is thinking the same thing heh GiladS.

So who do you blame for this joke of war that pretty much accomplished ziltch but wiping out Lebanese economy over a thousand dead, environmental and ecological disasters......


a) Justice Minister Haim Ramon ( Mr. resigned for ****** Assault charges )who said since that since there was no agreement in Rome conference, this gave Israel the green light to continue with the Blitz

b) Chief of Staff Dan Halutz for cleaning up his shares because he knew this was a crappy war with no solution and exit strategy?

c) President Moshe Katsav (Mr. "Represented the Morality of Humanity" ) who is accused of rape charges

d) Olmert? Politician Extraordinaire?

e) Meir Dagan? who'se intelligence service lacked intelligent men?

f) Yuval Diskin? Shin Bet head huncho who said he regrets the overthrow of Saddam?

g) **** Cheney who used Israel to "wipe out" Hizbullah for the sake of attacking Iran?

What will happen if there is another war? Will the reservists have second thoughts? Some did in this war, they knew this was a mistake...

[Moledet]

Non of the reservists believe that this war was a mistake, they are against the cease-fire and want it renewed right away until we destroy Hizballah or at least get our kidnapped soldiers back.

All they are pissed about is that the high command/government held them back and tied their hands instead of letting them fight freely like they were taught. The result of that was staying in the same spot for days, making them sitting ducks.

[inche yao?]

Non of the reservists believe that this war was a mistake, they are against the cease-fire and want it renewed right away until we destroy Hizballah or at least get our kidnapped soldiers back.

All they are pissed about is that the high command/government held them back and tied their hands instead of letting them fight freely like they were taught. The result of that was staying in the same spot for days, making them sitting ducks.

Seriously, you think Hizbulla will be destroyed, come on be serious. Southern Lebanon was leveled, and yet they kepped up a fight. What's next A bombs?

The IAF bombed the Manar TV over 10 times, at different locations and yet they came back with an even more powerful broadcast. Can Israel sustain and offensive that will last over 35 days? Can the IDF occupy Southern Lebanon, Southern Beqaa, Central and Northern Beqaa all the way to Baalbeck? Be ready to take on 400,000 pissed off Shiites and not to mention the rest of the relegions that may get involved. Was that the over all plan?

[Moledet]

Seriously, you think Hizbulla will be destroyed, come on be serious. Southern Lebanon was leveled, and yet they kepped up a fight. What's next A bombs?

The IAF bombed the Manar TV over 10 times, at different locations and yet they came back with an even more powerful broadcast. Can Israel sustain and offensive that will last over 35 days? Can the IDF occupy Southern Lebanon, Southern Beqaa, Central and Northern Beqaa all the way to Baalbeck? Be ready to take on 400,000 pissed off Shiites and not to mention the rest of the relegions that may get involved. Was that the over all plan?
Southern Lebanon was leveled? It was barely hurt, most of the homes are still standing. If you want to see leveled homes go to Bosnia in 1996, where you could travel 300km and not see a single building standing unhurt.
If we had leveled Southern Lebanon the Hizballah could never fight because it would never be able to emerge from the tunnels under all that concrete.

The reason for Al Manar's broadcast were satelites that as you know, the IDF can't shoot down.
Unfortunately that wasn't the plan, though the IDF could do it and in no more than a week. All it needs is a complete backing of the government and people, it has the backing of the people but not of the government. When a military plans an offensive the government isn't supposed to tell it not to use some conventional weapons extensively (like MLRS) or to not use them at all (like nepalm). All the goverment is supposed to do is to set the goals of the war and give the army a free hand.
Some soldiers were sent to the border 3 times and while painting their face the government cancelled the military's plan and sent them back to their rally point, how the hell is an army supposed to fight that way? Such things cause the forces that are already inside Lebanon to stay for another day in the same house and wait for backup instead of getting the backup and moving forward to find and surprise the enemy.

It's not like the Hizballah realy held to the ground and fiercely fought the IDF, every Hizballah force after loosing 2-3 members ran to hide. Some even threw their weapons and vests to be hopefuly recognised as civilians. They ain't the commando force the media tries to make out of them, they are quite ok, they have basic infantry skills and know to use some army tactics when they are engaged in combat.

[Argyll]

You've obviously not seen the Google Earth pictures of Lebanon 2 months ago and present day then have you, with it's barely hurt statement, one could say the same for Israel.
Were you in Bosnia to see these levelled homes for 300km?.....

What an ignorant Statement to make, and you know well Fine that a LOT of Southern Lebanons infrastructure was destroyed....

As for this statement............you must've had your head buried in the bullshyt to believe this to be true.

It's not like the Hizballah realy held to the ground and fiercely fought the IDF, every Hizballah force after loosing 2-3 members ran to hide. Some even threw their weapons and vests to be hopefuly recognised as civilians. They ain't the commando force the media tries to make out of them, they are quite ok, they have basic infantry skills and know to use some army tactics when they are engaged in combat.

Are you smoking crack?.........I seem to recall they reported Marun Aras was in IDF hands several times, only for this not to be correct.The media are not making Hezbollah out to be Commandoes, they're making out that the IDF sucked, and were not the super Army they thought they were, when they came up against what was supposed to be an inferior Force.
Hezbollah held the ground ok, against an alleged superior Force , and they never capitulated.....they inflicted heavy casualties on the IDF, and a casualty doesn't just mean KIA's it also covers WIA, Hezbollah surprised a lot of Tacticians and Military Analysts, none more so than the IDF themselves.

[Moledet]

You've obviously not seen the Google Earth pictures of Lebanon 2 months ago and present day then have you, with it's barely hurt statement, one could say the same for Israel.
Were you in Bosnia to see these levelled homes for 300km?.....

What an ignorant Statement to make, and you know well Fine that a LOT of Southern Lebanons infrastructure was destroyed....

I have seen the Google earth picture of the Dahia quarter in BEIRUT (not south of Lebanon). If you could see the picture of the whole city you could understand that it's not the whole city but just a neighbourhood in the city.

As for Bosnia, I am sure you can ask some of the Balkan people here and they will most likely agree.



As for this statement............you must've had your head buried in the bullshyt to believe this to be true.


Are you smoking crack?.........I seem to recall they reported Marun Aras was in IDF hands several times, only for this not to be correct.The media are not making Hezbollah out to be Commandoes, they're making out that the IDF sucked, and were not the super Army they thought they were, when they came up against what was supposed to be an inferior Force.
Hezbollah held the ground ok, against an alleged superior Force , and they never capitulated.....they inflicted heavy casualties on the IDF, and a casualty doesn't just mean KIA's it also covers WIA, Hezbollah surprised a lot of Tacticians and Military Analysts, none more so than the IDF themselves.
As for this, unlike you I don't get everything from the media, I know people from all kind of units and they weren't hurt even though they met Hizballah in more than one occasion. Why weren't they hurt? Because they got an objective, did their job and extracted out. They weren't static like the rest of the infantry/armored soldiers.
The Hizballah AT units were quite good, they were fearless and were able to shoot accurately under a lot of stress. This is mostly what caused loss of soldiers, the rest of the Hizballah was either very average (infantry) or complete rubbish (snipers).

As for Maroun A-Ras, the IDF did clean the town as it was supposed to do, the problem is that it left a path for civilians to escape north as a result of that backup arrived and the battle was renewed. The vilages are also close to eachother and the IDF didn't open an offensive on all the villages, that helped Hizballah forces to move from one vilage to the other and recieve backup.

There were deffinetly lots of casualties, but this is part of war. Most of the casulaties weren't hurt by bullets but by sharpnels and mostly to the lower parts of the body (where there's no bodyarmor).
On the other hand, the amount of casulaties to the Hizballah is almost unberable for them. Every member they loose is years thrown out the window, they train them from a very early age and anyone lost is a very hard blow to the force of the organization that is quite small anyway due to a harsh screening process (that is done in order to avoid having snitches). They lost hundreds of members and probably had the same amount of woundeds.

BTW, as an example for what I am writing you can read about two Hizballah members that were captured I think in Bint-Jbeil. They were lying in the bushes with there weapons while an IDF patrol passed by, when the patrol noticed them they laid down their weapons and surrendered. One of them came from Beirut to fight and another lived in a vilage close by, when they saw the soldiers they deicded that they don't want to die and surrendered.

[Argyll]

I've no doubt some of what you write is true mate,but in a battle not every single round hits it's intended target, so it's not uncommon to be in a protracted firefight and have no casualties, the average rounds expended to kill ratio is 8000:1, during the Falklands war, it was even higher,I've been in one or two scrapes myself where thousands of rounds were fired at the callsign, but nobody was killed or wounded, and we returned several thousand rounds back.......with no hits claimed, as 80% of firepower is suppresive, the rest deliberate.

Individual sections and units might have achieved their objectives, but they all come under the one banner at the end of the day, and unless ALL objectives are met, then calling the mission succesful is being a little optamistic......and I'll bet this is what many IDF units are feeling right now, they bust a gut, do their job, only to have victory dashed by bullshyt Politics and Arrogant Top Brass..?

But a good post none the less....

[Moledet]

I've no doubt some of what you write is true mate,but in a battle not every single round hits it's intended target, so it's not uncommon to be in a protracted firefight and have no casualties, the average rounds expended to kill ratio is 8000:1, during the Falklands war, it was even higher,I've been in one or two scrapes myself where thousands of rounds were fired at the callsign, but nobody was killed or wounded, and we returned several thousand rounds back.......with no hits claimed, as 80% of firepower is suppresive, the rest deliberate.

Individual sections and units might have achieved their objectives, but they all come under the one banner at the end of the day, and unless ALL objectives are met, then calling the mission succesful is being a little optamistic......and I'll bet this is what many IDF units are feeling right now, they bust a gut, do their job, only to have victory dashed by bullshyt Politics and Arrogant Top Brass..?

But a good post none the less....
In order to compensate what you described (the use of thousands of bullets) the Hizballah issued a large amount of AT rockets/missiles. This might be a heavy weapon to carry for infantry but if you are stationed in a house that has a tunnel/bunker underneath you can store a large amount of rockets (for example: The pics from Bint Jbeil showing crates of TOWs).
The large amount of rockets made it harder for soldiers to station windows/rooms with exterior walls because while the wall can stop bullets it won't stop a rocket, it also effected the use of helicopters and tanks as supressive and covering fire (tanks usualy only moved in night time, in the day they parked behind sand ramps that were made by bulldozers at night). Many times calls by infantry for close cover fire were ignored due to the threat of rockets and it took hours until their calls were answered.
Another adventage of rockets/missiles is the sharpnels effect and their ability to cause a large explosion and even ignite ammo (in one of the incidents an ignition of ammo after an AT attack caused the partial collapse of a building and the loss of 9 soldiers).
To sums it up, they did a very good use of rockets/missiles.

I do not think we have won, but I think we could win if the IDF had enough backing by the government and a different chief of staff (not a pilot but an infantry soldier).

And thank you.

[inche yao?]

Can't believe what I am reading,

First and foremost, you heard about the Chrisitian village of Marjaayoon where the evacuaees where given a "safe passage" only to get bombed from the air. 6 civilians died in that raid. This is what you call safe passage? Pic of the convoy

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/paulwolfowitz/30879619.jpg


South Beirut (The dahiyeh is leveled). Of course, you drop flyers first, then dropped about 24 tonnes of bombs, and justify this by saying that the target was, hizbullah leaders or infrastructures.

Here are some pics for your pleasure:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/paulwolfowitz/30863315.jpg
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/paulwolfowitz/30863283.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/paulwolfowitz/August%2017/71685994.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/paulwolfowitz/71650472.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/paulwolfowitz/71708452.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/paulwolfowitz/71694356.jpg


Beirut, LEBANON: Lebanese workers wok on clearing rubble of destroyed buildings in the devastated Beirut's southern suburb, 22 August 2006. A nine-day-old truce in Lebanon appeared increasingly tenuous as the United Nations still struggled to find European countries willing to commit forces to keep the peace between Israel and Hezbollah. Despite intense negotiations since the truce came into effect on August 14 and warnings that it could unravel if more peacekeepers fail to deploy quickly, few European countries have made firm commitments. AFP PHOTO/HAITHAM MUSSAWI (Photo credit should read HAITHAM MUSSAWI/AFP/***** Images)

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/paulwolfowitz/71685589.jpg


BEIRUT, LEBANON - AUGUST 21: Buildings lay destroyed in the heavily damaged southern suburb of Haret Hreik on August 21, 2006 in Beirut, Lebanon. As a fragile ceasefire holds many Lebanese people are going to the destroyed southern neighborhoods to witness the damage, inflicted by Israeli air strikes during the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah, so extreme that residents of the areas can not return home. (Photo by Marco Di Lauro/***** Images)

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/paulwolfowitz/71685501.jpg


BEIRUT, LEBANON - AUGUST 21: Buildings lay destroyed in the heavily damaged southern suburb of Haret Hreik on August 21, 2006 in Beirut, Lebanon. As a fragile ceasefire holds many Lebanese people are going to the destroyed southern neighborhoods to witness the damage, inflicted by Israeli air strikes during the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah, so extreme that residents of the areas can not return home. (Photo by Marco Di Lauro/***** Images)




IAF should have done Lebanon a favor and wipe the rest of the buildings that are standing....that way we don't have to take them down ourselves.

Here are some pics of villages in Southern Lebanon.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/paulwolfowitz/30856109.jpg

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/paulwolfowitz/71599070.jpg
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/paulwolfowitz/71703418.jpg


Srifa, LEBANON: TO GO WITH AFP STORY MIDEAST-CONFLICT-LEBANON-RECOVERY A Lebanese boy passes by the rubble of destroyed houses in the village of Srifa in the central sector of southern Lebanon, 22 August 2006. In the week after a ceasefore in the blistering month-long offensive against the Shiite militia Hezbollah, many of the towns in this region, which suffered the worst of Israel's fury, have yet to see any significant attempts to clean up. AFP PHOTO/AWAD AWAD (Photo credit should read AWAD AWAD/AFP/***** Images)

Reminds you of Kabul?

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/paulwolfowitz/71695339.jpg


Srifa, LEBANON: Rubble from buildings is seen in the shattered town of Srifa, in southern Lebanon, 22 August 2006. More than a week after Israeli bombs stopped falling, some of the worst-hit towns like Srifa have yet to see any significant cleanup, leaving their residents struggling to find hope for recovery amid the rubble. AFP PHOTO/AWAD AWAD (Photo credit should read AWAD AWAD/AFP/***** Images)


Does this look familiar? Apparently, IDF had this town.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/paulwolfowitz/71683484.jpg


BENT JBAIL, LEBANON - AUGUST 20: Cars make their way down a street August 20, 2006 in the heavily damaged city of Bent Jbail, Lebanon. While a shaky cease fire between Israel and Hezbollah still holds, funerals for the dead and the salvaging of belongings is just commencing in parts of south Lebanon. (Photo by Spencer Platt/***** Images)

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/paulwolfowitz/71683483.jpg


TEBNINE, LEBANON - AUGUST 20: Teenagers rest in front of a destroyed home August 20, 2006 in the heavily damaged town of Tebnine, Lebanon. While a shaky cease fire between Israel and Hezbollah still holds, funerals for the dead and the salvaging of belongings is just commencing in parts of south Lebanon. (Photo by Spencer Platt/***** Images)

Here is a Hizbullah strong hold!

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/paulwolfowitz/71682532.jpg


Khiam, LEBANON: Lebanese Christian children help to clean the damaged Mar Elias church, in the border town of Khiam, located just seven kilometres (four miles) from the Israeli border, 20 AUGUST 2006. Lebanon warned today it would charge with treason anyone who fired rockets on Israel in violation of a fragile ceasefire that ended a month of warfare, but said Hezbollah was committed to the deal. The comments by Defense Minister Elias Murr came as Israel and Lebanon traded accusations that the other had breached the UN-brokered truce that came into effect just a week ago. AFP PHOTO/OUSSAMA AYOUB (Photo credit should read OUSSAMA AYOUB/AFP/***** Images)

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AIT AL-SHAAB, LEBANON - AUGUST 19: A man walks through a destroyed building after returning home to extensive damage to his village August 19, 2006 in Ait al-Shaab, Lebanon. While a shaky cease fire between Israel and Hezbollah still holds, funerals for the dead and the salvaging of belongings is just commencing in the south of Lebanon. (Photo by Scott Peterson/***** Images)

[Moledet]

According to the Lebanese government about 30,000 apartments were hurt, notice not buildings but apartments.
That's not that much.

You know who lives in Dahiyeh quarter, it's almost exculsively Hizballah members and their family members.

And **** happens, if only 6 were killed in such a large convoy it's clear it was a mistake and the IAF didn't intentionaly bomb them.

[inche yao?]

According to the Lebanese government about 30,000 apartments were hurt, notice not buildings but apartments.
That's not that much.

You know who lives in Dahiyeh quarter, it's almost exculsively Hizballah members and their family members.

And **** happens, if only 6 were killed in such a large convoy it's clear it was a mistake and the IAF didn't intentionaly bomb them.

.............:bash:

[GiladS]

Back on topic...



Officers to Halutz: Mission in Lebanon was not completed


Chief of staff meets Paratroopers Brigade reserve officers, says he is willing to take responsibility for Lebanon war ‘as soon as it becomes clear that I have to take it’; adds: There will be a thorough investigation of each and every unit

Ynet Published: 08.24.06, 21:47

IDF Chief of Staff Dan Halutz said Thursday during a meeting with reserve officers from the Paratroopers Brigade that he is willing to take responsibility for the manner in which the Lebanon (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284170,00.html) war developed.

“I will not shy away from responsibility – as soon as it becomes clear that I have to take it,” he told the officers at an army base in central Israel.

Halutz’s statements were aired on Channel 10.

One officer asked Halutz for his response to claims that some IDF commanders acted inappropriately during the fighting, saying that one commander refused to assist in the evacuation of a soldier because he was not under his command.

“There will be a thorough investigation of each and every unit, and eventually we will get to the bottom of it,” Halutz said.

The chief of staff added that “there is no military way to disarm Hizbullah, (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284023,00.html)and this is why we did not use this terminology.”

When asked whether senior IDF officers will take responsibility “because there is a feeling that the mission was not completed,” Halutz said: “Yes, if needed then high-ranking officers will take responsibility.”

Link (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3295482,00.html)
....

[thepromise]

According to the Lebanese government about 30,000 apartments were hurt, notice not buildings but apartments.
That's not that much.

You know who lives in Dahiyeh quarter, it's almost exculsively Hizballah members and their family members.

And **** happens, if only 6 were killed in such a large convoy it's clear it was a mistake and the IAF didn't intentionaly bomb them.

Usually I do not post any comments in this forum, cause I like the material and the info in here, and I know if I truly express what's on my mind am gonna get banned.. Anyway, but I find it essential to correct some of the info you've been posting 'cause it seems you are totally ignorant...
To begin with the 30,000 apartments damaged were only in Dahyeh (southern suburb of Beirut) which is not just a neighborhood, cause around 400,000 reside in this 'neighborhood' so it ain't that small as you made it look like.. Add to that, definitely it is NOT only Hezzies and their families who reside in there, cause if I agree with you on that, then the number of Hezzies and their families in Lebanon would be like One Million (if we added the number of those living in the southern lebanon areas targeted), which is impossible and I can guarantee that..
The southern lebanon is a rural area except for a couple of cities like tyre and Bint Jbeil, thus these areas dont have apartment buildings they only have houses, and that's why the count doesn't include them yet.. The lebanese gov is still working on the count of homes destroyed in the south cause it is a tough job taking into consideration many villages cease to exist, it's just rubble now..
As for **** happens, I wonder how my family winery got hit in the Bekaa?!?! I mean it's like 5000 sq meters surrounded by acres and acres of vine yards! And I believe if an army has enough intelligence they'd know that Hezzies won't hide in a Winery or won't even allow a winery in the area they live in because of their religious beliefs?! Is that **** happens too??

[Moledet]

As far as I know it's almost exclusively Hizballah and their supporters. Otherwise, why was it hit and the rest pretty much stayed untouched?
I agree with your assemption about the vilages, you might be correct.

Which part of your winery was hit? And by what?

[Notlim]

Quote:


some could say that Israeli reservists are volinteers (because they can just not show up when they are called), and they get very little for doing so.
the IDF cant win wars with out reservists and it has to keep this very small percentage of the population happy in order that the keep on showing when they are called to.

if someone ask you to risk u'r life, risk u'r job, leave u'r family for a whole month each year untill u'r 41 years old for only 70% of u'r average salery while getting screwed with low grade and old equipment - would you volunteer and do it?


Iranians did it for eight years, with less and the game still on for them!

[LRPV]

I would like to know more of this statement that Israeli reserves can refuse to show up if called upon. What is the legal standing (let alone the moral obligation to help protect ones own country)?

[Moledet]

I would like to know more of this statement that Israeli reserves can refuse to show up if called upon. What is the legal standing (let alone the moral obligation to help protect ones own country)?
They don't want to show up mostly for training or for policing duty in the west bank. They don't feel like risking their job for doing mostly nothing, they usualy sit in their base all day long watching TV, playing football/soccer, having BBQ and only at night they are sent to arrest some terrorist and get back to doing nothing. It ofcourse depends on where you work in, large companies won't fire you but small companies might and if you have your own business you need to shut it down and you loose customers so it's kind of a problem.

But to war everybody comes, especialy if you get to be in a nice place like Lebanon. The reporting to duty rate in some units was 130% (the amount of soldiers that usualy comes to training is considered 100%).
Even Israelis that weren't in Israel for a long time, either in a trip in the far east/south america and Israelis that live in North america contacted the Israeli console and gave their address and ways to contact them if there's ever a need to recruit them.

[LRPV]

Ok, thanks. Here we have legislation that protects reservists from being sacked by their companies if they attend reserve service. This protection includes normal training, not just active service.

[SeanAshi]

Aren't politics in the IDF a no no? Welcome back moledet.

[inche yao?]

As far as I know it's almost exclusively Hizballah and their supporters. Otherwise, why was it hit and the rest pretty much stayed untouched?
I agree with your assemption about the vilages, you might be correct.

Which part of your winery was hit? And by what?

My family's JAM factory was hit in the Beqaa It was hit in 82 by the IDF and was hit and 80% destroyed in july 06 by the IAF.

Does that make me a Hizbullah guy? Does that make my father a Hizbullah? As a matter of fact, my aunt is married to a jewish husband in New York who helped build the factory, does that make him a Hizbullah guy? Seriously Moledet, you have alot to learn.

They also destroyed, LibanLait, a milk factory 5 km north of us.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

According to the Lebanese government about 30,000 apartments were hurt, notice not buildings but apartments.
That's not that much.

You know who lives in Dahiyeh quarter, it's almost exculsively Hizballah members and their family members.

And **** happens, if only 6 were killed in such a large convoy it's clear it was a mistake and the IAF didn't intentionaly bomb them.

30,000 apartments not much?

Lets assume for arguments sake there is 4 people that live in each apartment. Which is a low estimate all things considering.

30,000 x 4 = 120,000 people left homeless. Now out of those 120,000 people I wonder how many could be considering casualties? (killed, wounded, missing)

Even with an average of 3 people per dwelling you would still have 90,000 people left homeless.

And this for one area of Lebenon. The destruction witnessed is greater then Katrina or even the Tidal Wave that hit Indonesia (minus the deaths). I'd gate to see what a unacceptable amount of destruction is in your mind.

[Moledet]

Aren't politics in the IDF a no no? Welcome back moledet.
They are no longer soldiers after they take off the uniforms.

inche yao?
I can't realy address your complaint, I ain't the IDF spokesman and I don't know why they hit each and every target.

Minardiau.
What's the point comparing it to natural disasters? It's apples and oranges.
Few hundreds of buildings were destroyed, it's not that much and they were targeted for a very good reason.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

The point is you have said the 30,000 apartments destroyed is an insignificant number. I'm merely pointing out it is a huge number of displaced people. Comparable to some of the natural disasters that have occured in recent times.

[Notlim]

The point is you have said the 30,000 apartments destroyed is an insignificant number. I'm merely pointing out it is a huge number of displaced people. Comparable to some of the natural disasters that have occured in recent times.

well instead of signing petitions, why just not force new elections? sack out all of the rotten apples/politicians: that society has produce some real opportunists that exploit that conflict.
there should be laws and people should be held responsible for their lack of patriotism.
isnt that what israel is all about?

and no matter what! civilians shouldn't be targeted by any Army! that is just disgracefull! IDF should also be held accountable for crimes against civilians.

So this is the great democracy of israel better get a grip or you will loose your soul!

[Macabi]

and no matter what! civilians shouldn't be targeted by any Army! that is just disgracefull! IDF should also be held accountable for crimes against civilians.

This is ending up like the same old discussion that often turns up.

1. Israel does and has not intendedly targeted civillians. But many civillians have been killed.

2. Hezbollah hides like any other terrorist organisation among their own population. Not to mention them firing their rockets at Israeli civillians under the cover of a garage or ally way of an apartment, as can be seen on areal footage that has been posted on this forum.

3. Hezbollah targets civillians intendedly, that is part of their tactics and goal.

This being say'd, it's so naive to say Israel should be held accounted for crimes against civillians. Hezbollah should be, because they target civillians and hide among them, causing loss of their own death.

Apart from what I have just say'd, Lebanese civillians handed out sweets, lighting fireworks and having big celebration party's after soldiers where kidnapped and killed.

[Herrmannek]

little trtanslation for stupid pole... Jewish soldiers are complaining they wanted kick ass and they were siting on ones instead?