MSNBC: Iraq After Saddam Slideshow: Disturbing Pic

[Kaworu Shiro]

http://www.msnbc.com/c/0/158/988/10x7/030528_iraqss_12.jpg
Show me the money
A U.S. soldier aims his sidearm in an effort to persuade Iraqi pensioners to move away from razor wire erected after thousands of pensioners gathered to receive $40 emergency payments in Baghdad on May 8. Scuffles erupted when people became impatient after waiting in the midday heat.

Leeched off of MSNBC's Slideshow of Iraq After Saddam, picture 12.
Not sure how others may see this, but after cycling through their images, I found this one quite disturbing. I'm not a military analyst or anything, but from the looks of it, hes got his finger on the trigger of his M9 and he's aiming into a crowd of what looks to be unarmed Iraqi civilians... I think it's difficult to determine if his safety is on or not... but it looks like the hammer is in an "uncocked" position, (unsure of term for that... if there is one, please correct me if you can) 'least there would be another action that the device would have to go through in order for it to discharge... but never the less, somehow I get a feeling (purely on instinct) that this isn't "handbook-style" crowd-control. Not only that but I get a feeling that this'll be one of those images that leftest-radicals might use as ammunition towards the whole America-in-Iraq argument.
I understand that the soldiers there are on a high, if not highest alert for possible dangers, considering the violence that has occurred lately and that a daunting crowd wouldn't make that easier, but there must be better ways of doing it than readying a firearm into a crowd of (seemingly) civilians.

Either way, I'm somewhat new to the board, so I hope you can be forgiving with my opinion and "newbie-ness" and I hope people can correct my misinterpretations where it may arise.

So what do the people here have to say of this image? o_O? I'm pretty curious about the various different views of the individuals here ^_^

[OzMan]

You are absolutely right. This is not the way to control a crowd. I see no weapons, a woman, and elderly in that crowd. That is a crowd of civilians (as far as I can see). If I remember correctly, you should only draw your weapon in matters of self-defense. There are many ways to control a crowd, this is harldy one of them. Under no circumstances should you draw your sidearm, bring it into a firing position, and PUT YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER to persuade civilians away from just some razor wire. I can guarantee you that the radical-left has this photo, and will use it against the right.

The caption under the photo says "scuffles" broke out. Still, you shouldn't draw your weapon for a scuffle. I am not an expert on how weapons work, or how to fire them, but I don't need to be. This is, honestly, appauling. I don't care that the hammer isn't "cocked" or "uncocked" (I don't know the right term either). I wouldn't care if the weapon had no magazine, and no bullet in the chamber. Those civilians I'm sure aren't experts on foreign weapons. How are they supposed to know that some English-speaking kid is just persuading them away? They are irritated, and they're looking for some money! I'll bet you anything that if I was looking for some money, and I'm pissed off, and some (this is not a racial or ethnic profile, just an opposite example) Arabic-speaking teenager is waving a Makarov in my direction, you're damn right I'll be scared ****less.

Clearly, this is the wrong way to do it.

[96B]

First off none of us really knows what exactly was going on at the time and the whole story of it so lets not make assumptions. Also, we are losing soldiers almost on a daily basis to RPG/MG attacks and it is still a very very dangerous place. For the soldiers over there, the suicide bombing regarding the taxi and the grenade attacks from what appeared to be civilians is still fresh in their minds so their personal safety is a PRIORITY and they take it very seriously. Perhaps in this particular situation the soldier may be mistaken with his ways but short of our boys shooting up civilians lets keep the criticism to at least a minimum unless you have BTDT and/or understand exactly the situation our men are in right now over there trying to keep the peace and order. In the comfort and convenience of our own homes it is so much easier to criticize the actions of those in combat zones when in fact we would probably act the same way if we were there ourselves, those of us who have the guts to serve their country anyhow.

[JohnJohn]

Why would you not have your finger on the trigger? Iraq is still a hot zone, you gotta be ready for anything. Most of the men there carry weapons concealed inside of their robes, there is no way of knowing who is armed and who isn't.

[Seraphim]

Why would you not have your finger on the trigger? Iraq is still a hot zone, you gotta be ready for anything. Most of the men there carry weapons concealed inside of their robes, there is no way of knowing who is armed and who isn't.

Well your trained to have your finger on your trigger guard unless your about to shoot.

[PSYWAR1-0]

Good news bad news here. I agree that on the surface this is not the way to control crowds. The good news is that the weapon is on safe.

[Chops]

JohnJohn

I'm sure everyone here who has been military trained (and certainly LE trained) in the tactical use of the handgun has been taught to keep your trigger finger extended alongside the trigger guard until the threat displays itself. It is primarily a technique to stop NDs and thus to lessen the risk to non combatants or friendlies whether your weapon is on safe or not.

rgds

Chops

[USAF G]

Chops is right. You only put your finger on the trigger once you have made the decision to shoot. Having one's finger on the trigger as a "state of readiness" is a sure route to NDs. Anyone here heard of sympathetic muscle reation, or startle response. I don't know what is happening in the picture, so I can't say right or wrong, however, unless the soldier is shooting or about to shoot he's in error. If he is shooting, why is his safety on?

[XASA]

It's difficult to judge this trooper's behavior based on the photo because we don't know who or what he's aiming at. Perhaps someone has a weapon in the crowd, or has just hit one of the guys with a rock. Obviously, though, if there wasn't a threat of bodily harm, he certainly is wrong. There's always a sh** for brains cowboy in every unit.

[Merik]

Hey man dont be dissing on us cowboys now lol. :lol:

[XASA]

Didn't mean to offend any real cowboys Merik, just those who point loaded weapons at unarmed civilians with their finger on the trigger :P

[JohnJohn]

well you guys are right. Even if it is on safe, no way to hold a gun to a croud of people. Bad croud control technique. By doing that, you could scare people in the croud that may be carrying weapons to fire at you and start a whole mess. Don't think the guy is about to shoot, guess I'm just too proud of my servicemen to admit they are wrong sometimes ;)

[SHOOTERB]

Just because your in the Army dosent mean you know how to handel a pistol! Most regular Army types only fire their pistol 1or 2 times a year for qual and then only about 40 rounds. Mostly officers/medics/mp and machinegunners carry pistol in the big green army. This dosent give you much practice and hardly any realistic training.

[rangerone]

Put yourself in his shoes. What would you do if that many people in an unfamiliar country were that close to you, and the only thing between you and them was some razor wire? Personally I would be scared. US guys are getting killed although Bush said the war was over. I am sure this guy may be a bit nervous or doesn't want anything to happen to his buds.

[Steve Andrews]

I've been in his shoes.
There is absolutely no excuse for such behaviour. It's unprofessional.

[USAF G]

We should all be proud of this young man, it's not his fault, and this is not criticism or disrespect to him. This is a training issue that should have been delt with long before our servicemen were thrust into such a chaotic and stressfull situation. Unfortunatly emphasis is not always put on the correct areas, or there is simply not enough time to adress every senerio befor it arises. That said, weapons disciplin and trigger finger placement are pretty friggen important and I hope someone sees this and adresses the problem in the future.

What sucks, is if he had to use his pistol, he would have to take his finger off of the trigger, take off the safety, and reapply trigger pressure. Reaction time is about a third of a second before we even begin to perform complex operations, so he's at a deficit to begin with. I would prefer to see our soldiers a bit better prepared. They did such a superb job going in, I hope they have minimum problems now.

[XASA]

The Beretta has an ambidextrous thumb activated safety USAF G, so you don't have to remove your forefinger from the trigger.

[USAF G]

Not my point. You still have to release the trigger in order for it to reset so you can fire, once you have removed the safety. That's movement and that takes time.

[XASA]

Point understood USAF G. Missed the "third of a second" reaction time on the previous post.

[SHOOTERB]

Let me try to explain about the Big Green Army and training. I have a friend who retired about 8 months before the war kicked off. He spent 20 years in SF/Rangers/ABN Infantry units. He got a contract to go to the desert and train the Infantry guys before they crossed the birm. He got the contract because of his SF/Ranger back ground. Anyway when he got there he started training the guys on CQB, and marksmanship. This would include the basics of handeling the weapons as well. The lower ranks loved it and saw the value in it (Company level CDRs and below). However the BN level CDRs and above did not like a "SF" guy coming in and teaching that the way they have been doing things was wrong or out dated.

I dont blame that guy. He should have been trained properly. and keeping your finger off the trigger does not add that much time when you engage. If you get shot for that reason it was your time to go anyway.

[AVZ]

This is totally unprofessionel!! keep your finger off the trigger. This guy had to get his gun out of his vest; ok. The situation needed it.
He schould be faster in shooting the bad guy even if there is someone with a weapon concealed under his robe, OK.

[asmith555]

I used some photo editing software to zoom in sharpen the image. Found another image of an m9 on berreta's web site. Judging by the curve of the finger and the position of the trigger on the m9, if his finger is on the trigger the trigger would be depressed in the rear position. It may be more likely that his finger is placed under the trigger gaurd. I hope it wouldnt be behind it. If you look at a side view image of the m9 you can see the position of the trigger in relation to the grip. I don't know where his finger is but I don't belive it could be on the trigger. -unless he just fired.

[USAF G]

On the M9 and 92 berettas, when the safety is in the down (or on) position, you can pull the trigger all of the way to the rear with almost no resistance. That's why I said he would have to release it in order to reset it if he took the safety off and wanted to fire. So, likely he did not fire, just has the trigger to the rear since his finger was on it. Scary!

[Zach R.]

You really shouldn't say that how he is holding his sidearm is unproffessional.When you are in a position like him,the adreniline starts to pump.It's a natural reaction that happens all the time,mostly with Police Officers.You are right about how he should have his finger on the trigger guard,BUT,a fight might have broken out somewhere in the photo that is not visible.Don't forget,this single frame is only a tiny little glance of what was going on that day.There could be a gunman in the background,we'll probably never know.But to say that this man is unproffessional while acting out his duty to defend the defensless,is very unproffessional of yourself.

[eppler]

Not sure the trigger is pulled because I don’t see the firing pin block raised

[Argyll]

Why have you revived 3 year old post?