Ja. Muslim

[Danik]

Alright the embedding doesnt work for some reason, link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7489128737211826486&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=en


Quoting the Koran I think is a bit out there, as if you quote the bible there is also alot of violence there, but the actual undercover report was good, just to hear what certain people preach at this mosque.

[coolguy120]

editediteditedit

[eucalyptus]

is this military video?

[shire19]

Nope. To summarize, it's just another "Muslims are taking over Europe" video

[coolguy120]

What Ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu Stanleys!

[Danik]

Nope. To summarize, it's just another "Muslims are taking over Europe" video

Yea, its pretty much that, you can draw your own conclusions, I also felt they went all out. But I posted it due to conversations recorder undercover, its something to hear. Personally I feel the problem lies in education, if places like the one in the video teach people the things they are saying, than that is the problem, Its not illegal to worship whatever religion, but the problem of violence inciting leaders is there and should be dealt with.

[Danik]

Also the guy comparing Jan Palac to terrorists is certainly going to anger some people. What Jan Palac did earned him respect from both Czechs and Russians, this guy has some twisted logic in thinking that killing people makes you a bigger hero.

[thscott83]

Also the guy comparing Jan Palac to terrorists is certainly going to anger some people. What Jan Palac did earned him respect from both Czechs and Russians, this guy has some twisted logic in thinking that killing people makes you a bigger hero.

You commit suicide as a political statement? Great! You take a few dozen civilians with you? Even better! (Total madman logic.)

[Mr.K]

Biased video, but there is no such thing as non biased info when it involves islam.
LOL @ washing nostrils. "Agh i'm breathing infidel air!"
For the adultry, why 4 witnesses and not 5?
If anyone think our culture is spoiled and needs a radical change, he/she can leave.
Although the video is about Chezch Rep, they take all the drastic footage from Germany.
Palac might be a hero for some, he didn't kill people.
Radicals need to be weeded out and given 25 to life in separated from the rest, so they wouln't contaminate other inmates lmind.

[YankeeDoodle]

B
For the adultry, why 4 witnesses and not 5?


The Prohphet Mohammad married a 6 old girl named Aisha. When she grew to be a woman there was an incident in which it was suspected that she was fooling around. Mohammad heard about this incident of his favorite wife when another miracle happened, Mohammad received from Allah a very timely revelation. Allah revealed Aisha's innoncence and a new law, "Why did they not produce four witnesses? Since they produce not witnesses, they verily are liars in the sight of Allah." [Qur'an 24:13]

That was a close one, glad Allah came through in time for the embarrassed Mohammad. The accusers, I bet they went to meet Allah ASAP.

[Mr.K]

also this video remined me of Borat.
http://www.meloncorp.com/arch/0088/Borat.jpg

[Danik]

In what regard?

[Mr.K]

misogyny,hating jews, lack of fashion sense, mustaches..

[dimasorokine]

Borat is a beautiful human being!

-Dima

[Kaapeli]

Over here the charismatic fundamentalist christian movements are also preaching to take over Europe and the world. And they are more numerous and have even more children than muslims (like 5 on average). So which one is it going to be then? Are all atheists screwed when these two take over the world? :)

Propably not. Because very few of these kids actually become fundamentalists like their parents were when they grow up. The christian charismatic movements are still only marginal groups even though they have had hundreds of years to breed huge flocks of children.

[haze99]

To most of you all religions are equal, though I will argue that they are not!
In the Old Testament, Jehovah did command the Israelites to kill and destroy certain tribes, such as the Anakim, Hittites and Phillistines. IF you take time to read, you will see that this was for a specific time period. Not an open-ended war with EVERY Gentile!
The Messiah, Jesus came to fulfill the law and not to abolish it. His time here on earth was to prepare the Jewish nation to recieve Him as messiah. (And to be the sacrifice for man's sins, by dying on the cross.) Not to rule from Jersualem, though this will come at a later time.
Fast forward, 600 years after Jesus, mohammed comes on the scene. Now his revelations are totally different from that of Jesus Christ. In so far as that he denies the deity of Jesus Christ, as the Son of G_d. Instead of loving neighbors and winning them over by his life works. He conducts himself through lies, deciet, curses and war. Cutting off heads of those he takes captive. Conduct condemmed by the Jeudo-Christian G_d!

[YankeeDoodle]

Yes, haze99 you're 100% correct. This is one of the first things I've read here that resembles truth about the Muslim ways compared to the West. Most of the stuff I've been reading is pure PC spin.

Watch out the euro leftist will eat you up, they were weaned on Socialism and hate christianity, the west ( actually they don't know what that is) and love anything that counters America.

[dimasorokine]

Yes, haze99 you're 100% correct. This is one of the first things I've read here that resembles truth about the Muslim ways compared to the West. Most of the stuff I've been reading is pure PC spin.

Watch out the euro leftist will eat you up, they were weaned on Socialism and hate christianity, the west ( actually they don't know what that is) and love anything that counters America.

I actually agree with some of the stuff you say:

Muslim terrorists - BAD!
Muslim extremists - BAD!
Cutting off heads - BAD!

But you sound like an extremist yourself... Not a Muslim one of course, one of the other kind.

And to argue about who cut who's head off thousands of years ago is Lunacy. Everyone, no matter their religion was cutting heads off one anothers shoulders back then. The church was torturing and burning "witches" and the Middle East today is Disney Land compared to those days.

-Dima

[DeltaWhisky58]

Yes, haze99 you're 100% correct. This is one of the first things I've read here that resembles truth about the Muslim ways compared to the West. Most of the stuff I've been reading is pure PC spin.

Watch out the euro leftist will eat you up, they were weaned on Socialism and hate christianity, the west ( actually they don't know what that is) and love anything that counters America.I actually agree with some of the stuff you say:

Muslim terrorists - BAD!
Muslim extremists - BAD!
Cutting off heads - BAD!

But you sound like an extremist yourself... Not a Muslim one of course, one of the other kind.

And to argue about who cut who's head off thousands of years ago is Lunacy. Everyone, no matter their religion was cutting heads off one anothers shoulders back then. The church was torturing and burning "witches" and the Middle East today is Disney Land compared to those days.

-Dima

Oh dear Mr Doodle, looks like they're on to you! Your ignorance of the world outside your own insular existence astounds me - you have such a jaundiced view of Europeans for example. Where do you get such ridiculous ideas on the world about you eh? I get the impression that you would like to build a huge security fence around your own little world and annihilate everything which dares to move outside of it. I stand by what I said on another thread, you Sir are a bigot of the very worst kind. If it doesn't conform to your ideas of what is right or coincide with your own extremist views, DESTROY IT! You criticise what you perceive as European Leftists - what is worse about a European Leftist than what you clearly are - An American Extreme Right Winger - think about it? Who says you are right and they are wrong. I am a European with right wing leanings - right of centre certainly, but not far enough to stop me seeing reason, where does that put me in your order of things - pretty low down the scale I'd warrant!

[YankeeDoodle]

Oh dear Mr Doodle, looks like they're on to you! Your ignorance of the world outside your own insular existence astounds me - you have such a jaundiced view of Europeans for example. Where do you get such ridiculous ideas on the world about you eh? I get the impression that you would like to build a huge security fence around your own little world and annihilate everything which dares to move outside of it. I stand by what I said on another thread, you Sir are a bigot of the very worst kind. If it doesn't conform to your ideas of what is right or coincide with your own extremist views, DESTROY IT! You criticise what you perceive as European Leftists - what is worse about a European Leftist than what you clearly are - An American Extreme Right Winger - think about it? Who says you are right and they are wrong. I am a European with right wing leanings - right of centre certainly, but not far enough to stop me seeing reason, where does that put me in your order of things - pretty low down the scale I'd warrant!

DeltaWhisky58 my dear hypocrite, it's refreshing to hear your politically correct judgemental views working from your deeply held fear of openly examining Islam. Such enlightenment! What a scholar. Since you already failed to correctly understand bigotry let's see how you do on another topic.

Since I'm in your exalted presence please elucidate on your deep understanding of the Islamic faith. Please tell what are the basics. Let's start with Jihad, what does the Prophet Mohammad say about it.

[toki]

DeltaWhisky58 my dear hypocrite, it's refreshing to hear your politically correct judgemental views working from your deeply held fear of openly examining Islam. Such enlightenment! What a scholar. Since you already failed to correctly understand bigotry let's see how you do on another topic.

Since I'm in your exalted presence please elucidate on your deep understanding of the Islamic faith. Please tell what are the basics. Let's start with Jihad, what does the Prophet Mohammad say about it.
Do you know any muslims? Do you have contact with muslims in your daily life? Just a question. In all your apocalypitc scenarios, i wonder what we should do with our muslim community. Sterilisation? Endlösung? As you see our BKA (FBI) was quite successful in the last 2 weeks. People are not blind, but you should start minding your own business.

Btw poitical corectness is very subjective. PC = left is not accurate IMHO. It's funny that you call pretty center to right europeans leftist anyway. In your dogma you create your own pc thinking. PC for extreme right wingers is: Muslim = Jihadi. You just follow this logic and repeat yourself. You won't find any constructive discussion on this board with ignorant, one dimensional tunnel view.
Your an alarmist and even worse mind a place across the pond, that you have never lived in. (And don't come with ancestry, you'Re not european, because your granddad was) Forget? Between all the conspiracy and apocalypse you're painting there's one thing: You never lived in the place where your scenario is supposed to happen. I could talk about Amexicana and put up statistics, but honestly beside a few visits to the north eastern US i have no clue on how this Amexicana thing could happen or not. A large chunk of our muslim community is far less political then you might think and just mind their daily lives.

No need to discuss the radical parts with you, because you don't make a difference anyway. For you it's an homogenous group.

I can't believe i'm responding again...

[YankeeDoodle]

Do you know any muslims? Do you have contact with muslims in your daily life? Just a question. In all your apocalypitc scenarios, i wonder what we should do with our muslim community. Sterilisation? Endlösung? As you see our BKA (FBI) was quite successful in the last 2 weeks. People are not blind, but you should start minding your own business.

Btw poitical corectness is very subjective. PC = left is not accurate IMHO. It's funny that you call pretty center to right europeans leftist anyway. In your dogma you create your own pc thinking. PC for extreme right wingers is: Muslim = Jihadi. You just follow this logic and repeat yourself. You won't find any constructive discussion on this board with ignorant, one dimensional tunnel view.
Your an alarmist and even worse mind a place across the pond, that you have never lived in. (And don't come with ancestry, you'Re not european, because your granddad was) Forget? Between all the conspiracy and apocalypse you're painting there's one thing: You never lived in the place where your scenario is supposed to happen. I could talk about Amexicana and put up statistics, but honestly beside a few visits to the north eastern US i have no clue on how this Amexicana thing could happen or not. A large chunk of our muslim community is far less political then you might think and just mind their daily lives.

No need to discuss the radical parts with you, because you don't make a difference anyway. For you it's an homogenous group.

I can't believe i'm responding again...

Yes I know good Muslims and Germans too!

My concern is with the philosophy not the people. Example: Germans are good people but Nazism isn't. The same applies to Islam, Moslems are good people but the religion creates terrorists, fanatics and such.

Many people do not know (including many moslems, yes this sounds crazy but it isn't) that the religion itself promotes violence, they call it Jihad, and traditional (correctly practiced) Muslims practice it. This explains why Muslims around the world are often found in violent confrontations. Osama is practicing as the Qur'an commands. His violent Jihad terrorist acts are prescribed by Mohammed. So the life we see Osama and the Taliban practice is what the Qur'an requires.

So what about the vast majority of peaceful good muslims? They're not following traditional mainstream Islam, isn't that good. Yes but there is currently a world wide revival of the true (violent) Islam.

Well why should that matter? Not much if all they had were 7th century weapons, but things have changed and they are currently in the process of obtaining WMD.

So what do the peaceful Muslims in my area have to do with this? Hopefully not much, but there is strong evidence some in the community are becoming practioners of true islam. There is a common practice for cells of violence to form. These communites are required by their holy books to support these violent attempts. Jihad is mainstream Islam. Jihad is violence upon the non beleiver.

So what can we do? You can get involved in your democratic process and put the immigration on hold until this gets sorted out and we can end the bad part of the belief system. You can also help assimilate muslims by becoming friends with them and helping them remove themselves from this philsophy of death.

The Germans rid themselves of Nazism so can these People.

[DeltaWhisky58]

DeltaWhisky58 my dear hypocrite, it's refreshing to hear your politically correct judgemental views working from your deeply held fear of openly examining Islam. Such enlightenment! What a scholar. Since you already failed to correctly understand bigotry let's see how you do on another topic.

Since I'm in your exalted presence please elucidate on your deep understanding of the Islamic faith. Please tell what are the basics. Let's start with Jihad, what does the Prophet Mohammad say about it.

I haven't got a clue! I've never claimed to know anything about Islam, Jihad or anything else. The only thing I can say with any certainty is that I recognise a Grade-A asshole when I come across one and that you fit the bill. Do us all a favour and go back to your own extremist xenophobe paradise and leave us with the blissful ignorance we had before you pitched up and spoilt our fun.

Oh, and by the way - I have several Muslims as close personal friends. They are as appalled by the actions of a very small minority of their religious group as most of us are. You spout crap about Jihad, Islam, the Prophet Mohamed etc., but at the same time convey what appears to be a total lack of knowledge of the world about you whilst simultaneously accusing me and other members of hypocrisy - wise up for feck's sake!

[coolguy120]

I have muslim friends and a muslim ex too. I wouldnt say they are appalled by anythign except for 'zionist crimes' Gloval jihad is either ddenied or addressed to 'root causes' like Israel. Maybe its different in Europe, but here the picture is clear. A lot of the 'peaceful ones' support global jihad financially, and this i know about people moderate enough to have jew friends.

[Danik]

Delta and Toki, I thought there was a thread in which you guys tried to rehabilitate yankee already. You can make a new seperate thread and chat it out and spare us the destruction. Hes like Hezballah, you guys are the IDF and my poor thread is Lebanon.

Toki, I know people love comparing right wing accusations about whats happening with Muslims in Europe to Hispanics in America. But theres one underlying difference in that Hispanics have a similar culture/religion as the rest of the US. after visiting Spain I realized that all my dominican, puerto rican, and mexican friends are not special cultural groups, the culture is identical, and Spain I hear is in Europe. Where as Muslim culture is drasticaly different from European culture. Point is: there is not much for comparison.

[dimasorokine]

DW58,

You hold the banning stick, this guy is nothing but trouble...but on the other hand YankeeDoodle:

What in yout opinion is the solution to this horrible andextremely scary Muslim problem?

-Dima

[Monogram]

I am going to start by bolding stating that I can address a response to all points raised herein and those therein this so-called documentary - though I wont as I am sure your attention spans wont stretch that far.

I am not sure what would have killed me first; the high or low concentration of serotonin in those neural paths and functions of the mind affecting logic and or knowledge and or reason and or understanding. All these had to be phenomenally dysfunctional or off to actually anticipate another moment of Mr Jiří Ovečka documentary. And checking out the website of the company he works for ( MYTV (http://www.tvmy.cz/projekce.asp)) I'm quite sure his other content on Islam would not be that far off - but not for me to nullify on (thank you). Too often expressions, words, symbols, acts and so forth are used subject or relative to ones:
1- Logic: (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Logic)
2- Knowledge: (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Knowledge) in this case of Islam.
3- Reason: (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Reason) for producing such content - to explore the truth of Islam? (hardly)
4- Understanding: (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Understanding) of the subject matter, those relating to it and the audience for which it was produced.

However truth is indispensable and not subject to each individuals impartiality or degree of assertion to the above factors. To exemplify "equal" implies "as great as; the same as" (dictionary.com) thus 3=3 & NOT 3=1.

As far as the Koranic/ Quranic texts that were used - all were either miss-quoted, miss-translated or taken out of context - and I could follow them all in full even though I am no scholar. With its minimal editing - the intent, (including the bg music and echo effects were things were read) was quite evident throughout the documentary.

Such black propaganda against Islam and Muslims may be effective amongst the ignorant nations of East Europe and further fuel their supposed sentiments of nationalism (and I am restricting myself to mild words here - if your illiterate of such nations and their customs/ practises I rather not formulate a bad image) yet overall it will have very little impact and in due course will perish by its own notions of falsehood - just as nazi and neo-nazi factions, groups, agendas, objectives from the era of Reinhardt Gehlen continue to linger - such nations fail to see their role and exposure to corruption by their politicians and more so by irresponsible journalism of the kind.

I am pursuing this matter further and will ask my Czech friend to narrate as well as aid me in finding further info on this production (including exactly which channel broadcasted it).

What prosperity or positivism - of any kind did this program bring about? I hold/ propose a challenge to all those involved in this documentary to face a panel of no more than 3 people (in a public debate on the topics/ content of this program) for double the duration of the program and in return would offer €75,000 ($90,000usd / £50,000) to any charity or charitable cause relating to children or those who are sincerely suffering due to poverty - just as long as that too would be televised.

Anyone want to help me arrange this (and I am not talking of the money)? ;-)

[Stolly]

DeltaWhisky58 my dear hypocrite, it's refreshing to hear your politically correct judgemental views working from your deeply held fear of openly examining Islam. Such enlightenment! What a scholar. Since you already failed to correctly understand bigotry let's see how you do on another topic.

Since I'm in your exalted presence please elucidate on your deep understanding of the Islamic faith. Please tell what are the basics. Let's start with Jihad, what does the Prophet Mohammad say about it.

Remember YankeeDoodle, when dealing with foreigners there is only one thing to remember. What would John Wayne do ?

[getl0st]

As far as I'm concerned Militant Islam is an Islamic problem which should be being fixed from within the Islamic Community because a few are giving the rest of Islam a bad name.

The only problem is that the apparent Mainstream Islamic Community is awfully quiet regarding the problem of Militant Islamist's.

The only time we seem to hear from the Moderates is when some political leader says some negative comment about Moslems.

I have yet to to hear from any supposed Moderate Moslem that they are actively identifying and removing Militant Islamists from within their midst.

So therefore I have two conclusions:

1. Mainstream Moslem's are too Gutless and scared to do something about the Extremists in their Midst or,
2. Mainstream Moslem's really support the Militants within their Midst

I would really love for someone who is Islamic to address these issues, because previous to 9/11 and Bali Bombing's etc I didn't care and had no opinion regarding Moslem people good or bad.

Since 9/11 and London, Bali Bombings etc I have developed increasingly negative feelings and opinions towards the Islamic community as a whole.

[Monogram]

I am going to attempt to address the issues you raised - though I may not be fully qualified to give you a complete response nor may limitations (time, your: attention span, deduction skills, etc - & resources) permit me. I am also going to try to kill 2 birds with 1 stone [that isn’t a jihadi movement for some of you lacking referential abilities in ‘language and culture’ it a mere idiom]; some of which diverge into other issues raised herein by others who may all be well opinionated but lacking in the virtue of error - for without the fundamental tool of ‘knowledge’ there can be nothing but falsehood! For some of you so-called American Patriots I can…

"The doorstep to the temple of wisdom is a knowledge of our own ignorance." - Benjamin Franklin Amongst other favourites…

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
Before I start my ranting - if I may give an analogy - there is a stand upon which all speakers are supposedly talking of Mathematics yet none knows or appropriately address the topic [due to whatever constraint or agenda], say no one even talks, knows or even address Numbers and Numbering Systems, Arithmetics, Algebra, Trigonometry, etc. To entice this paradox further - other elements beyond the topic are included and from this stem a tree of other topics, debates, thoughts and so forth - all amounting to what? Knowledge? Discovery? Understanding? This is exactly what is taking place amongst the populace/ mainstream places of the world regarding “Islam” and participants herein [Muslims, none-Muslims alike] are no exception. Everyone talks of Islam, yet no one knows anything of it or can in any capacity quote its root [absolute] foundations without relying on some other persons handed down interpretation, translation, etc. from the Arabic. Added to such debates are other elements, ‘Fundamentalism’, ‘Terrorism’, ‘Jihad’, etc (“double think” as George Orwell puts it) of total irrelevance based on convictions, assumptions and at times more extreme and heinous sentiments without any factual assertion or understanding - in most cases I like to assume due to ignorance - as I know I can be with so many things.

You did not head to my warning regarding “expressions, words, symbols, acts”. ‘Militant (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Militant) Islam (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Islam)’ ? If you [the reader] have problems with these two words I suggest you click on the link and clarify your misconceptions so as to make apparent the evident contradiction. However to aid in the process with precision ‘Islam’ is from the root word ‘salaam’ meaning peace - & due to their inherent similarities how the Jews and Muslims alike greet / farewell each other with ‘shalom ‘ / ‘salam’. This is much like saying [Millitant Islam]:
Militant Peace [ or Passivism] or take from its other meanings
Militant Submission to the will of God - this I’ll come to in a bit.Often many find themselves victims of the Orientalists opinions or ideology inline with their other mass promoted misconceptions of Islam. Amongst these misconceptions/ buzz words alike is that of Jihad.
Jihad is derived from the root word ‘Jahda’ meaning to ‘struggle; strive or assert effort’ [literally! not case dependent] and in the Islamic context it can be aphoristically categorised as:
Striving against ones own evil inclinations,
Striving for social improvements,
Striving in the way of self-defence, As well as against tyranny and oppression.Anyone have any moral or ethical objections to these? Or are we gonna get stuck on definitions that you’ll need further clarity? [oh what is oppression and self-defence?]

Jihad in no way implies or means the coined term of the Orientalist’s “Holy War” as they try to apply their age old rhetoric’s from European History (including the crusaders, the templar and so-forth) to other nations. This term “Holy War” in Arabic is: حرب مقدّس. (Har-be Mo-gha-dasa) and you will not find this in any of the texts of Islam. To engrave the absolute meaning/ understanding of the word Jihad - I draw your attention to the parts of the Koranic/ Quranic texts which state/ refer to none-Muslims doing Jihad and to exemplify if you are striving and struggling to pass a test, or impress your boss, girlfriend or whatever even you are doing Jihad!

Now others also as well opinionated - would have you believe that most Muslims do not know their own religion or have got it wrong. This is quite humorous - for their assertion that Islam promotes violence is without any source, reference to what is at steak - mere opinion. Even if a quote is handed down to them - it is likely to suffer from the tendencies of miss-quotation, miss-translation and or things taken out of context (as highlighted in my previous post regarding Ja Muslim). If Islam through some unknown way (unknown in the sense that its not written or commanded) promotes violence it would be contrary to its claim: Submission to the will of God - and other notions relating to ‘God’ (or Allah as the Muslims prefer to call) in whose name every chapter (surah - of which there are 114) begins with: In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful [or Forgiving as some translators have used]. This same msg is repeated in no less than 71 verses which says Allah is forgiving and merciful. Furthermore it would be contradictory to the ways of the prophet (Mohammad) - whose life details clearly demonstrate his submission to peace by almost any means (be it money/ wealth, trade, marriage, etc).


The only problem is that the apparent Mainstream Islamic Community is awfully quiet regarding the problem of Militant Islamist's.
Syntax and semantics aside. Which “apparent Mainstream Islamic Community is awfully quiet regarding the problem of Militant Islamist's.”? Tell me which one? Which apparent ones give me the name [of the mainstream Islamic Community] - you have a few out there in the 51-st state as you may call it [though some would take offence to that - I know a few Aussies] - do you know of any? Would you walk up to any of these and ask “Why are you quite about the problem of Militant Islam?” - lacking first in the knowledge of what is Islam and exactly what ‘the problem of Militarism’ [full stop] and its inter-relational aspects are. Did I highlight that some of these [though you should know better] Communities are inspired, established, maintained, contributed to, etc by none-ethnic born Muslim converts? Ie typical Caucasian of European or other immigrant origins. The poor person say turned out to be someone from your high school days, wont have a clue of what you are talking about mate - since they had been raised there all their life. I mean come on how many times has Australia been attacked by anything let alone of all things Islam? - If however on the other hand you are implying that any such communities that you know of actively knows something or are maliciously involved in something - produce your proof, logic and reason and I myself will help you in your cause if its one of righteousness - irrespective whatever its name, Christian, Jew, Islam, Hindu or whatever is involved. But give me transparency, proof, logic not debates, assumptions and assertions – dont tell me what to think because you have or have been given such conviction.


I have yet to to hear from any supposed Moderate Moslem that they are actively identifying and removing Militant Islamists from within their midst.
Should this also be brought to you via your mainstream media? Opinion is what you need for comfort? What is Musharaff? A Muslim or none-Muslim? Anyway I think you lack the knowledge of Islam to formulate an opinion. What has he been doing for the past 7 years? Can you deduce?… collaborating in the phoney efforts of capturing Terrorist, Extremist, Militant Groups, whatever you want to call them all relating and with the prefix or postfix ‘Islam’ somehow.

I can name, amongst many, a few people/ organisation who are addressing this over- exasperated image of Islam and its association with Extremism, Terrorism, Militarism and so on. Most of whom are geniunly trying to address the issue. The most controversial at present:
Anwar Ibrahim former deputy pm of Malaysia, (controversial in that I wouldn’t bet against him becoming the next prime of Malaysia based - on my opinion: his US backing) who to quote states “The net has been cast rather too widely” [ by who Islam or the west? - on the topic of Islamic extremists and how it must be dealt with ] -
Yusef Estes “But don’t transgress the limits. What did I tell ya earlier? Islam is all about Rights & Limits. Rights yes but limits - and here it comes ‘don’t transgress the limits’” [American, former Christian preacher, convert, on Islam & Terrorism].
Dr. Zakir Naik “Whose to blame? We’re to blame [as Society not Muslims]. We have to go to the root causes of the problem. If there is a terrorist organisation we have to go and find out what is the reason that they are resorting to terrorism. The only way of solving this problem. Just by killing them - these terrorists, it will not solve the problem. If you kill one - there will be 10 emerging…
…You ask me about a particular individual case, Osama bin Ladin or Saddam Hussein I don’t know their background.. Allah will not ask me on the day of Judgment is Osama Bin Ladin a terrorist or not? So we have to say Allah-Alem - Allah knows best, we don’t know. Neither do we support them neither do we condemn them. If there’s solid proof of a particular person, of a particular Muslim, who has done an act which is proven to be against the Quran we have to condemn them. But if there is no proof which is substantial proof we have to remain neutral - thats what Quran says.” [on Islam and Terrorism]
Quran 5:32 “If anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed All mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of All mankind.” Anti-Terrorist Adverts by turntoislam.comI can go on but wont.

In conclusion as you [getl0st] had stated your opinions [& misconceptions I would like to add] were formulated Since 9/11 and London, Bali Bombings - I ask why? Whose the author of such ‘feelings’? Or did you, by your own will and contending to what’s impliedly and repetitively pounded to you via mainstream media, author/ conjure such ‘negativity’ - for what? the truth? (hardly) - most cases are sadly of submission and verification for the well vested apparatuses of propaganda [to indulge in the low, bilinear, manner of those wing-ist’s - Subtle State Apparatus! A prize if anyone is tangible enough to give me an explanation of that term]. You will accept what is given to you; and shall not, can not, will [as noun] not invest nor dare endure exposure to truth. Oh no in that there is great discomfort ;-)

The reality is that approximately 1.8 billion Muslims are in the world and to divide simply and further fuel your fears/ phobias almost 1 in 4 people are Muslim. Even in Australia it is exponentially increasing at over 200% per decade(from estimated 30,000 less than 10 years ago to 250,000). I pose the question what Militant Islam are you all whining about? Which sword travelled or conquered, Indians, Indonesians, Malaysians, Americans, Australians and so on forcing each accept Islam in thy way? If this notion of Militant Islam was in the slightest true or of high precedence – then imagine at a minimal assumption of 1 billion Muslims with 0.5% of appeal or participation it would equate to 5,000,000! The biggest army in the world! Even greater than that of china.

I hope no offence was taken to my posting and its length :-D


"People who worry that nuclear weaponry will one day fall in the hands of the Arabs, fail to realize that the Islamic bomb has been dropped already, it fell the day MUHAMMED was born" - Dr. Joseph Adam Pearson, Christ Evangelical Bible Institute, USA

It has been intriguing to observe the desperate search for some new enemy as the Russians were visibly fading through the 1980s:
international terrorism, Hispanic narcotraffickers, Islamic fundamentalism, or Third World “instability” and depravity generally. The project was conducted with its usual delicacy: thus the category of 'international terrorism' is cleansed of any reference to the contributions of the United States and its clients, which break all records but remain unmentionable in media and respectable scholarship; the drug war frenzy evaded the leading role of the CIA in creating and maintaining the post-World War II drug racket as well as the state role in allowing U.S. banks and corporations to profit handsomely from the sale of lethal narcotics; and so on down the list.-pg.3 Prof. Noam Chomsky, “World Order, Old and New” ©1994,96, print 97

[getl0st]

I am going to attempt to address the issues you raised - though I may not be fully qualified to give you a complete response nor may limitations (time, your: attention span, deduction skills, etc - & resources) permit me. I am also going to try to kill 2 birds with 1 stone [that isn’t a jihadi movement for some of you lacking referential abilities in ‘language and culture’ it a mere idiom]; some of which diverge into other issues raised herein by others who may all be well opinionated but lacking in the virtue of error - for without the fundamental tool of ‘knowledge’ there can be nothing but falsehood! For some of you so-called American Patriots I can…
Amongst other favourites…

Before I start my ranting - if I may give an analogy - there is a stand upon which all speakers are supposedly talking of Mathematics yet none knows or appropriately address the topic [due to whatever constraint or agenda], say no one even talks, knows or even address Numbers and Numbering Systems, Arithmetics, Algebra, Trigonometry, etc. To entice this paradox further - other elements beyond the topic are included and from this stem a tree of other topics, debates, thoughts and so forth - all amounting to what? Knowledge? Discovery? Understanding? This is exactly what is taking place amongst the populace/ mainstream places of the world regarding “Islam” and participants herein [Muslims, none-Muslims alike] are no exception. Everyone talks of Islam, yet no one knows anything of it or can in any capacity quote its root [absolute] foundations without relying on some other persons handed down interpretation, translation, etc. from the Arabic. Added to such debates are other elements, ‘Fundamentalism’, ‘Terrorism’, ‘Jihad’, etc (“double think” as George Orwell puts it) of total irrelevance based on convictions, assumptions and at times more extreme and heinous sentiments without any factual assertion or understanding - in most cases I like to assume due to ignorance - as I know I can be with so many things.

You did not head to my warning regarding “expressions, words, symbols, acts”. ‘Militant (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Militant) Islam (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Islam)’ ? If you [the reader] have problems with these two words I suggest you click on the link and clarify your misconceptions so as to make apparent the evident contradiction. However to aid in the process with precision ‘Islam’ is from the root word ‘salaam’ meaning peace - & due to their inherent similarities how the Jews and Muslims alike greet / farewell each other with ‘shalom ‘ / ‘salam’. This is much like saying [Millitant Islam]:

Militant Peace [ or Passivism] or take from its other meanings
Militant Submission to the will of God - this I’ll come to in a bit.Often many find themselves victims of the Orientalists opinions or ideology inline with their other mass promoted misconceptions of Islam. Amongst these misconceptions/ buzz words alike is that of Jihad.
Jihad is derived from the root word ‘Jahda’ meaning to ‘struggle; strive or assert effort’ [literally! not case dependent] and in the Islamic context it can be aphoristically categorised as:

Striving against ones own evil inclinations,
Striving for social improvements,
Striving in the way of self-defence, As well as against tyranny and oppression.Anyone have any moral or ethical objections to these? Or are we gonna get stuck on definitions that you’ll need further clarity? [oh what is oppression and self-defence?]

Jihad in no way implies or means the coined term of the Orientalist’s “Holy War” as they try to apply their age old rhetoric’s from European History (including the crusaders, the templar and so-forth) to other nations. This term “Holy War” in Arabic is: حرب مقدّس. (Har-be Mo-gha-dasa) and you will not find this in any of the texts of Islam. To engrave the absolute meaning/ understanding of the word Jihad - I draw your attention to the parts of the Koranic/ Quranic texts which state/ refer to none-Muslims doing Jihad and to exemplify if you are striving and struggling to pass a test, or impress your boss, girlfriend or whatever even you are doing Jihad!

Now others also as well opinionated - would have you believe that most Muslims do not know their own religion or have got it wrong. This is quite humorous - for their assertion that Islam promotes violence is without any source, reference to what is at steak - mere opinion. Even if a quote is handed down to them - it is likely to suffer from the tendencies of miss-quotation, miss-translation and or things taken out of context (as highlighted in my previous post regarding Ja Muslim). If Islam through some unknown way (unknown in the sense that its not written or commanded) promotes violence it would be contrary to its claim: Submission to the will of God - and other notions relating to ‘God’ (or Allah as the Muslims prefer to call) in whose name every chapter (surah - of which there are 114) begins with: In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful [or Forgiving as some translators have used]. This same msg is repeated in no less than 71 verses which says Allah is forgiving and merciful. Furthermore it would be contradictory to the ways of the prophet (Mohammad) - whose life details clearly demonstrate his submission to peace by almost any means (be it money/ wealth, trade, marriage, etc).


Syntax and semantics aside. Which “apparent Mainstream Islamic Community is awfully quiet regarding the problem of Militant Islamist's.”? Tell me which one? Which apparent ones give me the name [of the mainstream Islamic Community] - you have a few out there in the 51-st state as you may call it [though some would take offence to that - I know a few Aussies] - do you know of any? Would you walk up to any of these and ask “Why are you quite about the problem of Militant Islam?” - lacking first in the knowledge of what is Islam and exactly what ‘the problem of Militarism’ [full stop] and its inter-relational aspects are. Did I highlight that some of these [though you should know better] Communities are inspired, established, maintained, contributed to, etc by none-ethnic born Muslim converts? Ie typical Caucasian of European or other immigrant origins. The poor person say turned out to be someone from your high school days, wont have a clue of what you are talking about mate - since they had been raised there all their life. I mean come on how many times has Australia been attacked by anything let alone of all things Islam? - If however on the other hand you are implying that any such communities that you know of actively knows something or are maliciously involved in something - produce your proof, logic and reason and I myself will help you in your cause if its one of righteousness - irrespective whatever its name, Christian, Jew, Islam, Hindu or whatever is involved. But give me transparency, proof, logic not debates, assumptions and assertions – dont tell me what to think because you have or have been given such conviction.


Should this also be brought to you via your mainstream media? Opinion is what you need for comfort? What is Musharaff? A Muslim or none-Muslim? Anyway I think you lack the knowledge of Islam to formulate an opinion. What has he been doing for the past 7 years? Can you deduce?… collaborating in the phoney efforts of capturing Terrorist, Extremist, Militant Groups, whatever you want to call them all relating and with the prefix or postfix ‘Islam’ somehow.

I can name, amongst many, a few people/ organisation who are addressing this over- exasperated image of Islam and its association with Extremism, Terrorism, Militarism and so on. Most of whom are geniunly trying to address the issue. The most controversial at present:

Anwar Ibrahim former deputy pm of Malaysia, (controversial in that I wouldn’t bet against him becoming the next prime of Malaysia based - on my opinion: his US backing) who to quote states “The net has been cast rather too widely” [ by who Islam or the west? - on the topic of Islamic extremists and how it must be dealt with ] -
Yusef Estes “But don’t transgress the limits. What did I tell ya earlier? Islam is all about Rights & Limits. Rights yes but limits - and here it comes ‘don’t transgress the limits’” [American, former Christian preacher, convert, on Islam & Terrorism].
Dr. Zakir Naik “Whose to blame? We’re to blame [as Society not Muslims]. We have to go to the root causes of the problem. If there is a terrorist organisation we have to go and find out what is the reason that they are resorting to terrorism. The only way of solving this problem. Just by killing them - these terrorists, it will not solve the problem. If you kill one - there will be 10 emerging…
…You ask me about a particular individual case, Osama bin Ladin or Saddam Hussein I don’t know their background.. Allah will not ask me on the day of Judgment is Osama Bin Ladin a terrorist or not? So we have to say Allah-Alem - Allah knows best, we don’t know. Neither do we support them neither do we condemn them. If there’s solid proof of a particular person, of a particular Muslim, who has done an act which is proven to be against the Quran we have to condemn them. But if there is no proof which is substantial proof we have to remain neutral - thats what Quran says.” [on Islam and Terrorism]
Quran 5:32 “If anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed All mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of All mankind.” Anti-Terrorist Adverts by turntoislam.comI can go on but wont.

In conclusion as you [getl0st] had stated your opinions [& misconceptions I would like to add] were formulated Since 9/11 and London, Bali Bombings - I ask why? Whose the author of such ‘feelings’? Or did you, by your own will and contending to what’s impliedly and repetitively pounded to you via mainstream media, author/ conjure such ‘negativity’ - for what? the truth? (hardly) - most cases are sadly of submission and verification for the well vested apparatuses of propaganda [to indulge in the low, bilinear, manner of those wing-ist’s - Subtle State Apparatus! A prize if anyone is tangible enough to give me an explanation of that term]. You will accept what is given to you; and shall not, can not, will [as noun] not invest nor dare endure exposure to truth. Oh no in that there is great discomfort ;-)

The reality is that approximately 1.8 billion Muslims are in the world and to divide simply and further fuel your fears/ phobias almost 1 in 4 people are Muslim. Even in Australia it is exponentially increasing at over 200% per decade(from estimated 30,000 less than 10 years ago to 250,000). I pose the question what Militant Islam are you all whining about? Which sword travelled or conquered, Indians, Indonesians, Malaysians, Americans, Australians and so on forcing each accept Islam in thy way? If this notion of Militant Islam was in the slightest true or of high precedence – then imagine at a minimal assumption of 1 billion Muslims with 0.5% of appeal or participation it would equate to 5,000,000! The biggest army in the world! Even greater than that of china.

I hope no offence was taken to my posting and its length :-D

Monogram

You said a lot without actually saying anything.

You also didn't answer any of my questions, so you can answer the following questions without writing a novel.

What is main-stream Islam/Moslem's doing to identify and remove Militant Islamists from within their midst?

Does main-stream Islam/Moslem's want to identify and remove Militant Islamists from within their midst?

PS. I am Australian and the 51st state thing is a reference to Australia's support on the War on Terrorism, and if I find that this offends any of my countrymen I will change it immediately(maybe).

[stuntman]

I have nothing to add except Australia is the 52nd Canada is the 51st.. Just clearing that up..

[shire19]

Monogram

You said a lot without actually saying anything.

You also didn't answer any of my questions, so you can answer the following questions without writing a novel.

What is main-stream Islam/Moslem's doing to identify and remove Militant Islamists from within their midst?

Does main-stream Islam/Moslem's want to identify and remove Militant Islamists from within their midst?

PS. I am Australian and the 51st state thing is a reference to Australia's support on the War on Terrorism, and if I find that this offends any of my countrymen I will change it immediately(maybe).

I bet most of the moderates are and want to identify extremists as they come along by working closely with the authorities or providing them with anonymous intel. For all we know many of the terror raids were carried out by people who were close to the extremists and were alarmed.

But Muslims who have indeed aided the authorities aren't gonna want it to be made public as that can bring out all kinds of trouble, from revenge to dislike from other certain Muslims. They just wanna get on with their lives.

But if interested, here (http://www.freemuslims.org/)is one of many sites promoting to be vigilant against extremism.

[Monogram]

What is main-stream Islam/Moslem's doing to identify and remove Militant Islamists from within their midst?

Does main-stream Islam/Moslem's want to identify and remove Militant Islamists from within their midst?

Did you seriously read what I had previously written or did you upon a twitch of conviction post a reply? I mean I don’t know - did you have problems with my use of language, words or grammar? Or could you not extrapolate a meaning?

What are you, we, and I individually speaking? English or gibberish?

You’re inadequacies like most is not just one of reading or language but possibly a lot more as I had previously tried to elaborate. Too easily shifts between words, expression and so forth occur in attempt to try and identify with or widen your misconception ;-)

‘Moderate Muslims’ are now mainstream [1 word] Muslim’s from your last posting?
What is mainstream? If you have problems go to the definition (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mainstream) or thesaurus. (http://%22http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=mainstream%E2%80%9D)
What happened to them being so supposedly ‘apparent’? I asked you to list me the communities or groups that you call mainstream, apparent Muslims? Did you do that? - ludicrously, yet humorously some suggest to help these communities when they:
- Do not know of their scriptures/ roots to help them. How are you going to relate or correct them if at all they need correction?
- Do not even know of them nor can identify them.
My problem perhaps/ I guess is with the misuse or improper use of the higher faculties belonging to the homo sapiens specifically in language which is where they are supposedly to differ from other creatures/ animals. See here you are referring/ referencing 3 things at once [maybe this is how your mind perceives things :cantbeli: - 3 things as 1]
- Islam: of which I can comfortably ass-u-me that you do know enough or care to discover things relating to it. For if you did, you wouldn’t be asking does Islam want…etc [read my last post - its obvious you can scroll].
- Muslims: [again] you have produced little in so far as what it is that you are referring to as Muslims. Towards the ends of my last post I tried to clarify perceptions regarding Muslims/ Islam as something external (foreign, ‘un-white’ as in not white and so on) by its rapid growth rate in one country [Australia] and I went on to list the countries having large portion of Muslims - you know in the US its 10 million alone? You attribute this to forginers? Or Maybe none-whites? Or spread by the Sword of Islam? Which sword? Who are Muslims...? are these not Muslims (origin - race):
Bilal Phillips (USA - Black)
Yusuf Estes (USA - White
A. Rahim Green (UK - White)
Garry Miller (Canada - White)
Jerry Lang (USA - White)
Abdul Hakim Quick (Canada - Black)
Yusuf Islam (formally Cat Stevens. UK - White.)
And I can go on…Or somehow in some way are these not Muslim? Or mainstream enough? What made them turn to such faith? Jihad? Terrorism? Extremism? Militant Islam? What more can they say or should they be expected to say regarding the matter than the evident - what is their association to this Terrorism, Extremism, Militant Islam or whatever else shall be cointed for you to term? What more do they know than you, or most other for that matter, regarding exactly: who, why, where, when, how such things happen.
- Militarism: what can you tell me of this? There’s no point me writing if you don’t have the capacity to read, measure [check] or understand.
I attempted to give you a comprehensive answer - taking me just over an 1 hour - which an educated 11 year old could read in no less than 15 minutes and you call it a novel.

What did you want?
Towards the end of my post what did I quote?
Who? Me? Cnn? Fox?
I quoted (political, religious, etc) individuals and organisations demonstrating their quest against misconceptions and practises on the issue [by both Muslims & none-Muslims alike] and you say I wrote nothing continuing to ask “Do they want…”. I used some of those Muslims and Muslim organisation that you may consider moderate or mainstream [or however it is that you think I have given up]. I could have gone on for hours if you were wanting more. And still somehow I wrote a lot but nothing - at least I guess nothing is better than my perception, conviction from what is told/ spread to me/ by me.

Apologies if anyone has taken offence - none were truly intended. And lesser apologies on the length of the note - since its shorter :-D

PS - how comfortably degrading after the great 50 states of America comes 51, 52 and the arguments as to who takes such position.

[getl0st]

Monogram,

Stop trying to baffle me with BullSh*t, and picking on Technicalities.

An answer of one or two sentences is more than sufficient. Your response doesn't have to be an essay.

Just get to the point!!!

[getl0st]

I bet most of the moderates are and want to identify extremists as they come along by working closely with the authorities or providing them with anonymous intel. For all we know many of the terror raids were carried out by people who were close to the extremists and were alarmed.

But Muslims who have indeed aided the authorities aren't gonna want it to be made public as that can bring out all kinds of trouble, from revenge to dislike from other certain Muslims. They just wanna get on with their lives.

But if interested, here (http://www.freemuslims.org/)is one of many sites promoting to be vigilant against extremism.

Thanks Shire19.

If I'm going to be a bigot, I might as well be an informed bigot.

[Monogram]

Sorry I took for granted that you had reading problems.

An essay? how many have you written? For junior/ primary school that my suffice in length as an essay - if it has any quality/ calibre in its content ;-)

[getl0st]

Sorry I took for granted that you had reading problems.

An essay? how many have you written? For junior/ primary school that my suffice in length as an essay - if it has any quality/ calibre in its content ;-)

Monogram,

You wouldn't be trying to suck me into a flame war would you?

It's not going to work buddy.

You still haven't answered the Questions.

[Paracaidista]

It's all about who interprete the Word (Bible, Koran, etc) has the power, and extremists in general have lust for it. It'd happened with every major religion that somehow devolved into a theocracy at some point in history. For us (me) catholics, it happened during the middle ages. I do believe my religion has (painfully) evolved since then.

Islam doesn't have a centralized form of control (such as the Pope for Catholics), but several nucleii of power that well suits some governments and politics. Unfortunately, the way I see Islam is practised, it is the perfect vehicle for carrying the will of their leaders (at all levels), which happen to have a different (and to some opposite) culture as well.

Preaching is a good way to brainwash people. From what I've read (correct me if I'm wrong), the topics of Islamic Friday's and Christians (Catholic) Sunday's preachings have an underlying difference: One promotes love and compassion to others, whereas the other talks about hate and rage towards others.

IMHO the current day crisis in M.E. is about keeping the masses sedated with a drama (Palestine), whereas the problem in Europe is (was at some point) all about more votes for the power-that-be.

Why the islamic countries' emigration rate has increased for every continent during the past decade with the only exception of Latin America?