Gun maker seeks U.S. Army contract

[Geezah]

Smith & Wesson, fresh from winning military contracts in Afghanistan, now wants a bigger prize back home: a U.S. Army deal worth as much as $500 million that would be its biggest defense order ever.

The largest U.S. handgun company, which makes the .44 Magnum popularized in Clint Eastwood's "Dirty Harry" movies, will bid on a contract to make about 645,000 of its .45-caliber pistols over the next 10 years, the chief executive, Michael Golden, said in an interview. Beretta of Italy has the current Army contract, which expires next year.

Golden has been pushing Smith & Wesson into the government market since he took the top job two years ago. He has hired a lobbyist and a manager in Washington and says he has made 24 trips to the capital himself in the past year to drum up business. The prospect of more government sales has helped Smith & Wesson shares more than triple in value in the last 18 months.

"The company kind of got stale years ago," said Eric Wold, an analyst at Merriman Curhan Ford in New York, who does not own the shares. Smith & Wesson had a recognized brand name "but hadn't done anything to expand beyond that."

Helped by four deals in Afghanistan since April 2005, including a $15 million sale of 50,500 pistols to the Afghan National Police, Smith & Wesson's revenue jumped 27 percent to $160 million in the fiscal year that ended in April, after growth had slowed to 5.2 percent in fiscal 2005.

Three-fourths of the company's sales are still to U.S. consumers; just 14 percent is to the federal government and law enforcement agencies, and 11 percent is overseas, mostly to police forces.

"We firmly believe that the U.S. military should use a high-quality, well-designed product, manufactured in the U.S. by a U.S. company," Golden said.

To change the sales mix, Golden last year hired the Washington lobbying firm Greenberg Traurig and Ernest Langdon, a military consultant who had worked at Beretta, to be Smith & Wesson's director of government sales.

"We're a gun company, the country is at war, and nobody was looking out for our legislative needs," Golden said. He declined to say whom he had met with during his Washington visits.

Smith & Wesson shares fell 36 cents to $8.58 Monday. They reached $9.12 on Aug. 4, the highest since Saf-T-Hammer, a maker of trigger locks and other gun safety devices, bought Smith & Wesson and took on its name in 2001.

Beretta may have given Golden a boost in his quest for military business. The 9-millimeter guns it provides under the Army contract have a reputation for jamming, said Cai Von Rumohr, a Cowen & Co. analyst in Boston.

"What was malfunctioning wasn't the pistol, but the magazine," which Beretta bought from another company, said Matteo Recanatini, a spokesman for the privately owned company.

The supplier redesigned the magazine and resolved the issue, he said. Beretta has sold the U.S. Army 500,000 guns over the past 25 years through this contract.

Army spokeswoman, Kathy Roa, confirmed that the problem has been resolved. She declined to respond to additional questions about the contract.

Golden, who was an executive at the tool companies Black & Decker and Stanley Works before joining Smith & Wesson, also has tried to revive the company's law-enforcement business.

Smith & Wesson's share of the police market, once as high as 98 percent, plummeted to 10 percent in the 1980s after an Austrian competitor, Glock, developed a polymer gun that was lighter and quicker to load, Wold, the analyst said. Glock now has 65 percent of the law-enforcement market.


Link (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/08/22/news/wesson.php)

Should be interesting............

[Ratamacue]

I'm going to guess that this is related to the Joint Combat Pistol program?

[Sneeker]

what are their options for this program. Last I checked they havent named them. Has anyone hurd anything.

[JVeld]

Pretty interesting...I wonder if they would ever try to get into the assault rifle market for the army or government like they did in the civilian market with their MP-15 rifle .

[akd]

I'm going to guess that this is related to the Joint Combat Pistol program?

If so, then it isn't for 645,000 pistols, but some 70,000. Writer seems to have missed that update.

[John Crighton]

From one junk pistol to another......

[Geezah]

Pretty interesting...I wonder if they would ever try to get into the assault rifle market for the army or government like they did in the civilian market with their MP-15 rifle .

FN currently supplies the M16 to the Military(correct me if I'm wrong) and if they're not unhappy with the product they're recieving I doubt we will see that change any time soon.

[ZaakM433]

The only good pistols S&W makes are revolvers.

DOWN with S&W's bid!

[USMC Tanker]

FN must use different finishes on their M16s than Colt does. The FN finish eventually turns purple, whereas Colt's turn gray in the long run. Either way, FN makes good weapons so I wouldn't expect them to lose their contract to S&W in any way, shape, or form.

[SMGLee]

From one junk pistol to another......



The only good pistols S&W makes are revolvers.

DOWN with S&W's bid!



S&W M&P 45 will be the gun that will do it too...

I am saddened by the negative comments on this pistol even before anyone one of you have even held one, let along shot one. I wonder if any of you had even had a chance to shoot the M&P in 9mm or 40SW?

From being a glock fan that i was since 1988, This SW is everything that the glock should have been. this is that good.

Just a few things you might want ot be aware of when you make such statements....
-The embedded aluminum skeleton in the frame, no problems with kaboom...do you know how many Glocks go kaboom every year?
-The boreline to grip ratio, low center line help with pointability, recoil, and accuracy.
-The grip angle--17 degree, best angle that most of the gun fighter prefer.
-The recoil mechanism help a 40SW shoot like a Glock 9mm.
-The grip interchangability.

Those are all things that are superior to the Glock or the HK USP.

Here is some more toher more civilian shooter friendly explantions.

1. Ergonomics are excellent, The boreline sits very low in the hand, there are no sharp edges, and the overall feel of the gun is incredibly comfortable. The grip angle is similar to a 1911, and there is a high undercut under the tang as well as the trigger guard.

2. Thanks to the ergonomics along with the polymer frame, recoil is minimal. This gun shoots softer then my Glcok in both felt recoil and muzzle flip. This is almost like shooting a 380.

3. The trigger is good for what it is. It is fairly light and clean, a like like the Glock with the 3.5 disconnector but the reset is short and sweet. it has different feel compare to a Glcok it is still kind of meshy like the Glock since it is a polymer trigger setup. and while some will complain about anything NEW...especially from Smith Wesson, the reality is that the trigger is extremely serviceable.

4. The gun is truly ambidextrous. Slide stop is on both sides, and the mag button can be reversed without tools. something a Glock can't achieve.

5. Interchangeable grip panels will allow this gun to fit nearly any size hand. you don't have to slip a rubber grip piece to your grip like the Glock.

6. Gun can be taken down without having to depress the trigger. unlike the Glock, the likely chances of some officer accidentially discharge the gun is almost not possible.

7. Takedown tool is built into the gun. so you don't have to return to armor to have the gun disassembly nor do you have to carry a separate tool.

8. Novak sights come standard. best mass produced combat sight money can buy.

9. Picatinny light rail is standard, unlike the HK USP that uses the rare HK rail.

10. Gun is available with or without magazine disconnect, whether or not you are Mil/LE.

11. Price is extremely competitive. you can get a night sight equipped, 3 hi-cap M&P for around 600.00. Cheaper if you shop around.

I have shot over 1k over the spend of 2 days in a class/demo. This particular 9mm was flewless in reliability, and it is very easy to shoot for the entire weekend.

[SMGLee]

FN currently supplies the M16 to the Military(correct me if I'm wrong) and if they're not unhappy with the product they're recieving I doubt we will see that change any time soon.

And they might continue to do so with the SCAR when it comes on line.

As far as the numbers of the gun required being off, Actually the big green machine is looking to replace the M9, so the number is right on.

[Hollis]

I have a friend who is very knowledgeable about firearms, He was a Major in the Corps. He has spoken highly of the NEW S&W's autos. I don't remember the specifics, but the comments were a big plus.

As with a few here, my first and last Smith auto was the 39, that is in the later part of the 70's. My opinion sence then faded, though I do like the wheel guns.

If he is correct, than Smith would be GTG. Problem with SA in locked and cocked is that crud can fall between the hammer and frame. DA/SA autos seems to be the trick.

I am not fond of mechanical safeties....... Old school, "only safety on a fire arm is the person holding it."

[jkdo]

I don't mind S&W pistols,but since the company sided with the anti-gunners,years back,i would not buy one.Also,it's an easy thing to do to copy a pistol( Glock) and improve upon it and they tried the same with the Sigma pistol,which was a flop.I rather have a Glock than any S&W,but that's just my opinion.

[D.E. Watters]

As far as the numbers of the gun required being off, Actually the big green machine is looking to replace the M9, so the number is right on.

Yes, but the Army pulled out of the JCP program back in March. At that time, the maximum number of the now renamed Combat Pistol was reduced to 50,000. So far, nothing posted to FBO has indicated that the Army has rejoined the solicitation.

For those who wish to confirm this, run a search on H92222-05-R-0017.

[SMGLee]

Yes, but the Army pulled out of the JCP program back in March. At that time, the maximum number of the now renamed Combat Pistol was reduced to 50,000. So far, nothing posted to FBO has indicated that the Army has rejoined the solicitation.

For those who wish to confirm this, run a search on H92222-05-R-0017.


I was told the green machine is still keeping an eye on it... I still think there is a chnace that the program will be absorbed by Army at a later date.

[22.5degrees]

SMGLee,
Most Kabooms in Glocks are due to poor maintenance and/or reloaded ammo.

Grip interchangability is only used once, when adjusting the fit. After that the remaining "grips" are of no use or value.

Ambidextrous controls are great but not necessary.

Having an ND while field stripping your pistol has nothing to do with the equipment. ND's are 100% predictable and preventable. ND's are caused solely by operator error.

magazine disconnect should be outlawed. As far as I know only S&W still offers/produces this option.

"Novak sights come standard..." Sights are sights. A good set of steel night sights does the job.

As stated previously, the pistol is good because it is based on a Glock. This will be S&W's second attempt at a polymer pistol based on the Glock.

A lot of folks knock the Glock and its "plastic gun" reputation. What's ironic is that every major manufacturer now offers a polymer pistol. with the ever popular comment about "Glocks being chosen(for LE) because they're cheap" it makes me wonder why all the offerings in polymer if polymer framed guns are so poor and inferior to metal framed guns? Why would the major players in the arms market follow suit on something viewed as being inferior? Perhaps it is because no one is buying their gospel?? I could be wrong but it doesn't appear that way.

Glocks aren't perfect, but they do fit the bill for most folks in most cases.

22.5

[ZaakM433]

I am saddened by the negative comments on this pistol even before anyone one of you have even held one, let along shot one.

From being a glock fan that i was since 1988, This SW is everything that the glock should have been. this is that good.

You just compared it to a Glock, thats all I need to know to dislike it.

[czr]

Has the M9 not been the stellar performer that the 1911 had been? It seems they are phasing the Beretta out rather quickly. What where the reasons that they replaced the 1911 in the first place?

[Ratamacue]

Has the M9 not been the stellar performer that the 1911 had been? It seems they are phasing the Beretta out rather quickly. What where the reasons that they replaced the 1911 in the first place?I think that the primary reason that the 1911 was replaced was simply that they were looking for a 9mm pistol to become the standard. As I understand it though, the M9 has been the source of much criticism, mostly relating to poor reliability and subpar build quality. Having no personal experience with it, though, I can't say what exactly the problems are.

[22.5degrees]

From what I can remember the 1911 was phased out in favor of a smaller more controllable cartridge. The upside was the increase in magazine capacity and shorter training times. There was also concern regarding a SA pistol and therefore the army requested a DA/SA action type.

22.5

[Seraphim]

I think that the primary reason that the 1911 was replaced was simply that they were looking for a 9mm pistol to become the standard. As I understand it though, the M9 has been the source of much criticism, mostly relating to poor reliability and subpar build quality. Having no personal experience with it, though, I can't say what exactly the problems are.

Most of the malfunctions came from the mags...since then new mags have been designed and issued.

[BadKarma26]

http://www.gun-tests.com/issues/18_8/features/5352-1.html

[BadKarma26]

http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/images/SPhg_story11A_300.jpghttp://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/images/SPhg_story11C_300.jpghttp://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/images/SPhg_story11D_300.jpghttp://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/images/SPhg_story11E_300.jpg

You can't beat an XD baby

http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/images/SPhg_story9A_544.jpg

[juju]

I read somewhere that US Marines had bought Glocks in 45 GAP.
I've never been a fan of Beretta/M9 pistol, I've tried some and they always had (at least) a malfunction ! I've never been disapointed with the different Glocks I had (G17, G19, G34, G26).
But whatever the pistol chosen, there will always be people disliking it !

[BadKarma26]

She’s nearly unwieldy, nor bulky, and, in fact, I can’t even tell the difference between the standard frames, and the .45! (I don’t think the width of the frames were altered any, only the length of the grips.) The XD-45 still retains the 1911 grip angle, thumb grooves, and Glock back and fore strapping that made it’s predecessors so popular, along with it’s overall feel. I can honestly say, it’s the most comfortable .45 (Short of the original Taurus 24/7, but we all know about those…) that I’ve ever felt. Shooting wise, this USED gun went unclean after I picked it out of hawk to the range and cycled 200 rounds of Fiocchi flawlessly. Anyone who’s fired Fiocchi ammo knows the truth about it, it’s hardly the cleanest burning stuff around. I never even had one hick-up the entire time. The accuracy on this pistol was amazing, as well. The XD’s inherent pointability that Springfield Armory has always been proud to tote was VERY evident all day long, with my best groups of the day averaging 1” at 7 yards, and I was consistently shooting 2-3”s all day. (For the record, I don’t claim to be any sort of marksman. I advocate defensive shooting over target shooting for the practical person, but this pistol even turned a relatively bad shot like me into a Monday morning marksman at the range.) The pistol, despite it’s weight and polymer frame, tamed the .45 ACP round excellently, and I couldn’t have asked for better performance out of a firearm.
As well as the function, and feel, of the firearm, I think I should reiterate something I went into the last time I reviewed an XD. Springfield Armory have really outdone themselves on the single action trigger included stock with the XD. No longer are plastic pistols plagued with tolerable at best triggers, such as the Glock’s, or the 24/7. The XD series has a smooth pull, and clean break that feels like a production level 1911 trigger.

from: tactical application http://www.tacapp.com/?p=94

[Seraphim]

I read somewhere that US Marines had bought Glocks in 45 GAP.


I cant remember what website it was, but it was pure bull****.

[juju]

Wasn't it the armed forces journal website ?
Can't remember.

[Laconian]

SMGLee, That's a pretty good analysis. I've owned/shot Glocks (17, 19,23,26 & 21) and I liked them alot. I was issued S&W autos (659, 5406, 5946 and owned a 3913) I did not like them much and was very skeptical of the new M&P. I got to play with one that was owned by one of their shooters and I was sold. As revolutionary as the Glock, was, I think this M&P goes to the next level. So much so that I'm probably going to pick one up myself. I know at least two guys using them in competition and they love them. It is a sweet shooter.

22.5, I understand what you are saying grips, sights etc, but if you are equipping a force, the ability to change grip size for different sized hands is a big plus, instead of having to buy different guns or tell people to just deal with it. The same is true with disassembly procedures, yes most probs with Glock are the fault of the operator, not the wpn. But if the manufacturer can make it simpler/safer, what's wrong with that? It makes the weapon more marketable and their is nothing wrong with a manufacturer giving the customer what they want. I think the M&P does this as well and maybe even better than Glock.

Where I'm at now, I see bunches of folks (military types) walking around with pistols (Berettas). Truthfully my most constant thought is, "Thank God these are not loaded weapons." I've seen thigh rigs down to the knee, shoulder holsters on backwards and my personal favorite, the thigh rig worn cross draw style. Most military folks can't handle a handgun well or even moderately well; the more simpler and Joe-proof they make it, the better.

Pistoleros will always be discriminating but very few contracts are given out by pistoleros, most are given out by beancounters.

[ToyotaF1Fan]

She’s nearly unwieldy, nor bulky, and, in fact, I can’t even tell the difference between the standard frames, and the .45! (I don’t think the width of the frames were altered any, only the length of the grips.) The XD-45 still retains the 1911 grip angle, thumb grooves, and Glock back and fore strapping that made it’s predecessors so popular, along with it’s overall feel. I can honestly say, it’s the most comfortable .45 (Short of the original Taurus 24/7, but we all know about those…) that I’ve ever felt. Shooting wise, this USED gun went unclean after I picked it out of hawk to the range and cycled 200 rounds of Fiocchi flawlessly. Anyone who’s fired Fiocchi ammo knows the truth about it, it’s hardly the cleanest burning stuff around. I never even had one hick-up the entire time. The accuracy on this pistol was amazing, as well. The XD’s inherent pointability that Springfield Armory has always been proud to tote was VERY evident all day long, with my best groups of the day averaging 1” at 7 yards, and I was consistently shooting 2-3”s all day. (For the record, I don’t claim to be any sort of marksman. I advocate defensive shooting over target shooting for the practical person, but this pistol even turned a relatively bad shot like me into a Monday morning marksman at the range.) The pistol, despite it’s weight and polymer frame, tamed the .45 ACP round excellently, and I couldn’t have asked for better performance out of a firearm.
As well as the function, and feel, of the firearm, I think I should reiterate something I went into the last time I reviewed an XD. Springfield Armory have really outdone themselves on the single action trigger included stock with the XD. No longer are plastic pistols plagued with tolerable at best triggers, such as the Glock’s, or the 24/7. The XD series has a smooth pull, and clean break that feels like a production level 1911 trigger.

from: tactical application http://www.tacapp.com/?p=94

I used to be sort of anti-XD but I went to the range last week after seeing some of you talking about how nice it was and rented an XD .45 to shoot 200 rounds out of and I am sold. It points naturally, has very little felt recoil, and was reasonably accurate at 7 and 25 yards (1.5" and 5" 5 shot groups using a two handed grip). For comparison my Kimber CDP II on the same day with the same ammo shot 1.25" and 4" groups at 7 and 25 yards respectively. I was so impressed with the XD that my next handgun purchase will be an XD .45 Service Model in Flat Dark Earth rather than the P226R I had my sights on before.

TF1

[John Crighton]

S&W M&P 45 will be the gun that will do it too...

I am saddened by the negative comments on this pistol even before anyone one of you have even held one, let along shot one. I wonder if any of you had even had a chance to shoot the M&P in 9mm or 40SW?

From being a glock fan that i was since 1988, This SW is everything that the glock should have been. this is that good.

Just a few things you might want ot be aware of when you make such statements....
-The embedded aluminum skeleton in the frame, no problems with kaboom...do you know how many Glocks go kaboom every year?
-The boreline to grip ratio, low center line help with pointability, recoil, and accuracy.
-The grip angle--17 degree, best angle that most of the gun fighter prefer.
-The recoil mechanism help a 40SW shoot like a Glock 9mm.
-The grip interchangability.

Those are all things that are superior to the Glock or the HK USP.

Here is some more toher more civilian shooter friendly explantions.

1. Ergonomics are excellent, The boreline sits very low in the hand, there are no sharp edges, and the overall feel of the gun is incredibly comfortable. The grip angle is similar to a 1911, and there is a high undercut under the tang as well as the trigger guard.

2. Thanks to the ergonomics along with the polymer frame, recoil is minimal. This gun shoots softer then my Glcok in both felt recoil and muzzle flip. This is almost like shooting a 380.

3. The trigger is good for what it is. It is fairly light and clean, a like like the Glock with the 3.5 disconnector but the reset is short and sweet. it has different feel compare to a Glcok it is still kind of meshy like the Glock since it is a polymer trigger setup. and while some will complain about anything NEW...especially from Smith Wesson, the reality is that the trigger is extremely serviceable.

4. The gun is truly ambidextrous. Slide stop is on both sides, and the mag button can be reversed without tools. something a Glock can't achieve.

5. Interchangeable grip panels will allow this gun to fit nearly any size hand. you don't have to slip a rubber grip piece to your grip like the Glock.

6. Gun can be taken down without having to depress the trigger. unlike the Glock, the likely chances of some officer accidentially discharge the gun is almost not possible.

7. Takedown tool is built into the gun. so you don't have to return to armor to have the gun disassembly nor do you have to carry a separate tool.

8. Novak sights come standard. best mass produced combat sight money can buy.

9. Picatinny light rail is standard, unlike the HK USP that uses the rare HK rail.

10. Gun is available with or without magazine disconnect, whether or not you are Mil/LE.

11. Price is extremely competitive. you can get a night sight equipped, 3 hi-cap M&P for around 600.00. Cheaper if you shop around.

I have shot over 1k over the spend of 2 days in a class/demo. This particular 9mm was flewless in reliability, and it is very easy to shoot for the entire weekend.

Well, as a matter of fact I did shoot one for about 500 rounds.

1)Your information about the Glock is uninformed at best.

2) I understood that the grip was only really made to be changed once. Why would you change it multiple times anyway? Marketing gimmick. Make a good grip in the first place and you don't need extra parts.

3) Grip angle and ergonomics are a matter of personal opinion. I hated it. I like the way the Glock sits in my hand better. It pushes my hand forward and down for less muzzle rise.

4) Had no opinionof the trigger either way. Is a cushy warm fuzzy trigger what you want in a military pistol?

5) Truly ambidextrous. - 99.9% of shooters, military included couldn't shoot left handed or care about this feature. Most wouldn't remember it was there when it "counted".

6) Dont ever say that someone can't shoot themselves. If they are that stupid they deserve it any way. I have seen the "PERFECT" AR-15 (in perfect working order) shoot out of battery. It is supposed to be imposable for this to hapen per design as well.

7) If I need to take my gun down so often that the tool is placed in the gun I would think twice about using it. Or, just another mrketing gimmick as we all take down our weapons right there on the spot after use every time.

8) Standard iron sights will work just fin in a military pistol. I agree on how nice the Novak sight is, but it is overkill for a military weapon.

9) Personally i will not own a gun with a weapons rail. Just my opinion.

10) Not a bad price although it could be cheaper if they took away some of the bells and whistles not neded by the military.

11) I see no reason for a Magazine disconect. This seams like a step backwards. Please explain the use of this to me. I honestly do not understand the concept behind it here.

12) After reading your review, the pistol sounds like a nice marketing gimic, maybe a nice police gun if it is reliable enough. I am still in the camp that doubts S&W's quality. (admited bias). I was unimpressed.

I was rather unexpectely impressed with the Barretta 92. With a strong bias going into it. (Although I only shot 100 rounds) I was very unimpressed with the S&W.

[SMGLee]

SMGLee,
Most Kabooms in Glocks are due to poor maintenance and/or reloaded ammo.

Grip interchangability is only used once, when adjusting the fit. After that the remaining "grips" are of no use or value.

Ambidextrous controls are great but not necessary.

Having an ND while field stripping your pistol has nothing to do with the equipment. ND's are 100% predictable and preventable. ND's are caused solely by operator error.

magazine disconnect should be outlawed. As far as I know only S&W still offers/produces this option.

"Novak sights come standard..." Sights are sights. A good set of steel night sights does the job.

As stated previously, the pistol is good because it is based on a Glock. This will be S&W's second attempt at a polymer pistol based on the Glock.

A lot of folks knock the Glock and its "plastic gun" reputation. What's ironic is that every major manufacturer now offers a polymer pistol. with the ever popular comment about "Glocks being chosen(for LE) because they're cheap" it makes me wonder why all the offerings in polymer if polymer framed guns are so poor and inferior to metal framed guns? Why would the major players in the arms market follow suit on something viewed as being inferior? Perhaps it is because no one is buying their gospel?? I could be wrong but it doesn't appear that way.

Glocks aren't perfect, but they do fit the bill for most folks in most cases.

22.5

there are reports of brand new glock having the problems.... Glock 21 has been problematic at best. and Glock 40 has had a lot of probloem with stuffing a 40 into a gun that was designed for 9mm.

I never knock the Glock nor do i even dislike glocks. I have used Glock when it first surfaced. I was the lone gunman with a Polymer Glock and Steyr AUG in late 1980. can you imagine the look I get? I stuck to my guns and until this day, i used primarily a 1911 and glock most of the time, but I see and it call it... this SW is one sweet puppy.

You said Glock isn't perfect, well.. I said SW made the glock perfect and call it the M&P. well, nearly as perfect as one can get.. but very close to perfect....people that don't like the glock has enjoy the M&P.

you can order the gun without the magazine disconnect.

Novak is less ****e to snag and it is one of the best combat sight made.. I know iron is iron but then again a Davis is a pistol just like a Glock.. :)

No need to debate what is what.. I went throught the same ordeal back in the late 1980 on glock, when everyone i saw laughted at me for carrying a Glock, i keep on telling people how great this 9mm is. and look at it now. Just wait and see.. SW M&P is going to sweep the market once it catches on.

[SMGLee]

You just compared it to a Glock, thats all I need to know to dislike it.


If you read the thread.. I also compare it to the USP.

I did mainly compare to the glock because it is closest to it in design.

I can't compare to my beloved 1911 but that is another story.

[Hollis]

there are reports of brand new glock having the problems.... Glock 21 has been problematic at best. and Glock 40 has had a lot of probloem with stuffing a 40 into a gun that was designed for 9mm.




How can a person stuff a 40 (10mm case) in to a 9mm hole? Not ever sure if the 9mm mags would take or feed a 40 case.

[SMGLee]

Well, as a matter of fact I did shoot one for about 500 rounds.

1)Your information about the Glock is uninformed at best.

2) I understood that the grip was only really made to be changed once. Why would you change it multiple times anyway? Marketing gimmick. Make a good grip in the first place and you don't need extra parts.

3) Grip angle and ergonomics are a matter of personal opinion. I hated it. I like the way the Glock sits in my hand better. It pushes my hand forward and down for less muzzle rise.

4) Had no opinionof the trigger either way. Is a cushy warm fuzzy trigger what you want in a military pistol?

5) Truly ambidextrous. - 99.9% of shooters, military included couldn't shoot left handed or care about this feature. Most wouldn't remember it was there when it "counted".

6) Dont ever say that someone can't shoot themselves. If they are that stupid they deserve it any way. I have seen the "PERFECT" AR-15 (in perfect working order) shoot out of battery. It is supposed to be imposable for this to hapen per design as well.

7) If I need to take my gun down so often that the tool is placed in the gun I would think twice about using it. Or, just another mrketing gimmick as we all take down our weapons right there on the spot after use every time.

8) Standard iron sights will work just fin in a military pistol. I agree on how nice the Novak sight is, but it is overkill for a military weapon.

9) Personally i will not own a gun with a weapons rail. Just my opinion.

10) Not a bad price although it could be cheaper if they took away some of the bells and whistles not neded by the military.

11) I see no reason for a Magazine disconect. This seams like a step backwards. Please explain the use of this to me. I honestly do not understand the concept behind it here.

12) After reading your review, the pistol sounds like a nice marketing gimic, maybe a nice police gun if it is reliable enough. I am still in the camp that doubts S&W's quality. (admited bias). I was unimpressed.

I was rather unexpectely impressed with the Barretta 92. With a strong bias going into it. (Although I only shot 100 rounds) I was very unimpressed with the S&W.

1). i have seen reports and talk to plenty of shooters. I personally had two of my glock 40 that went down due to borken trigger parts. Doc roberts a SME on ballistics has had number of documented trouble with Glock 21. so uninformed at best is a bit harsh. I have been rolling in the firearms industry for well over 20 years. I see as I call it. The glcok 9mm is a great gun unitl they tried to stuff a 40 in a 9 or the poorly excuted Glock 21s. for someone that shot a glock since late 1980, it is a big step for me to say the SW is a good gun. i can't even imagine my self ever...EVER say SmithWesson makes a good pistol.. that was beyond my wildest dream. I was also very skepical in the M&P.. Until I shot it at a demo with some very very knowledgeable industrial insider and shooter telling to give SW and chance.. take an open mind and shoot the gun. As the day went on, I fall in love with it. the 9mm shot softer then my glock 17, it felt good and it was reliable. I still love my Glock, but now i am looking forward to my M&P when it arrive from SW.

2) Grip can be changed to suit the shooter. so you change it once and it stay on the gun. I don't see why you would change it multiple times. but the grip does offer a option for shooters with different hand size.

3)for a 1911 shooter, the grip angle is perfect... thank you very much... :)

4) Glock and M&P trigger is pretty much the same, but M&P has a faster reset for the follow up shot.

5) ambidextrous does help, not only it helps the lefty but laos for any righty that got hurt on the line and need to operate the weapon with their support side..basica combat training.. to be able to shoot from both side. this also makes for good CQB fighting. i always train to fight with my left and right hand.

6) Well, can't is a big word, but it will be less likely for someone to AD with a M&P.

7) well, you do need to take it down for cleaning.. so how often do you clean your weapon?

8) overkill, but SW build it inot the design, instead of offering a plastic sight like the glock, they choose the best combat sight avialable. and still be able to keep the gun at a relative inexpensive price.

9) adding a light to the gun adds ability to fight at night, most of the bad guy tend ot hide in the darkest places. I utilize my weapon light and a handheld light for low light fighting.. rail adds ability..nothing wrong with it. every manufacture has guns with rail on it. Glocks included.

10) it is still on par to what the military paid for a M9. retail or street price usually do not reflect the gov't pricing. can find a Clot M4 on the street for less then 1000.00, gov't pays a lot less.

11) mil/Le can order the gun without... READ.. WITHOUT the magazine disconnect. I too dislike the disconnect. Although once i was taught to drop the mag in the gun during a gun grab scenerio, with a Hi-power or SW, the prep can't use it against you.. then go for your back up and finish the fight while he is trying to figure out what the hell happened to the gun he just grabbed from you...

12) as far as gimmick, a lot of people said the red dot or combat light or VFG on M4 are gimmicks. so interchangeable grip, rail on frame are gimmicks??


Liking something is subjective. you might like one gun but hate the other. I too have those feelings about different. I hate SW from the bones since i can remember, but this gun has changed my mind. it might not change yours, but the reality is this gun is not magic, there is no magic gun but I think most of the people that come in contact with the M&P will truely enjoy its abiliyt. each to its own...

[John Crighton]

OK, fair enough arguement. We disagree on a lot of things but I se sit is a "new" vs "old" way of thinking.

I have never had a problem with my Glock 17, 22, or 21. I do not shoot reloads in the 22 though for the known reasons.

Glad to have a civil debate.

[BadKarma26]

I used to be sort of anti-XD but I went to the range last week after seeing some of you talking about how nice it was and rented an XD .45 to shoot 200 rounds out of and I am sold. It points naturally, has very little felt recoil, and was reasonably accurate at 7 and 25 yards (1.5" and 5" 5 shot groups using a two handed grip). For comparison my Kimber CDP II on the same day with the same ammo shot 1.25" and 4" groups at 7 and 25 yards respectively. I was so impressed with the XD that my next handgun purchase will be an XD .45 Service Model in Flat Dark Earth rather than the P226R I had my sights on before.

TF1

There are so many stories similar to this one it can no longer be ignored.

Some similar praises for the XD .45:

"I'll take an XD over a Glock any day of the week, and twice on Sunday. http://www.thehighroad.org/images/smilies/fce32f95.gif "

"Glocks are overrated. For whatever reason, most of the LEO's around here think that Glocks are the greatest thing since sliced bread. Alot of them have ZERO experience with anything other than their standard issue Glock."

"Yeah, I've got one. Nice guns. But you know what? Since I got my XD-45, my G21 has been renamed "doorstop"."

Chaim Stein did a 20,000 round torture test (http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory11.html) on a service model XD which included subjecting the pistol to neglect, immersion in every kind of mud, dirt and sand he could think of, plus other random and sundry abuse. His conclusion?
“Damned impressive… I completed this test with a great deal of admiration for this handgun. So much so, in fact, that it is now my nightstand gun. More than 20,000 rounds later, with no failures to feed or fire and hardly any wear to the gun's finish, I have no trouble whatsoever betting my safety on its performance.”
– Chaim Stein in Handguns (http://www.handgunsmag.com/index.html) magazine



Winner of the 2006 NRA and Shooting Industry's handgun of the year.....The SA .45ACP

http://images.military.com/pics/SoldierTech_XD45-1.jpg

Even regardless of how inexpensive this pistol is to buy, the XD .45ACP is one of the best pistols on the market. I've fired Sigs, USPs, the M9 for the Army, and the 1911 and own one, and nothing can stand up to the XD .45ACP. I'm telling you its UNBELIEVABLE. AND SO ****ING CHEAP theres no excuse not to own one. I really think the military needs to look at this pistol, but no doubt S&W has a powerful lobby in washington and SA which is not nearly as big of a company doesn't.

A 13 .45ACP round double stacked mag that feels slightly bigger than a 9mm and shoots like something a lot smaller than a .45. i can't say enough about this pistol...when I go to Iraq it will be at my side.

[ed316]

45 ACP? I have chosed a 1911 instead. Love it. Nothing wrong with the XD but comes down to personal prefernce.

[Hollis]

45 ACP? I have chosed a 1911 instead. Love it. Nothing wrong with the XD but comes down to personal prefernce.


Ed, With all the talk, and endless reasons, I really think that is what it all boils down too.

[Erik2a4]

The SA XD is a modified Croatian HS 2000. Good gun. I love it.

**** Smith and Wesson. That is all.

[BadKarma26]

45 ACP? I have chosed a 1911 instead. Love it. Nothing wrong with the XD but comes down to personal prefernce.

It comes down to whether you want 7 or 14 rounds in a firefight with comparable weight. The M1911A1 isn't as accurate as the XD...trust me I own them both. The recoil isn't as good, the XD is easier to reload, picattiny rail...its just a more advanced weapon. I'm all for the classics and I won't ever give up my 1911, but the XD 5'' tactical is a better weapon for our soldiers.

[ed316]

It comes down to whether you want 7 or 14 rounds in a firefight with comparable weight. The M1911A1 isn't as accurate as the XD...trust me I own them both. The recoil isn't as good, the XD is easier to reload, picattiny rail...its just a more advanced weapon. I'm all for the classics and I won't even give up my 1911, but the XD 5'' tactical is a better weapon for our soldiers.


I shot the XD 45 too. I have an SA 1911a1. My groupings are a little tighter with the 1911. I have a magwell guide for the 1911. Advance? Of course the 1911 haven't change much. Like I said personal preference.

[BadKarma26]

bang bang bang bang bang bang bang

or

bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang

thats no personal preference. thats being in a panick situation with 7 rounds...

we're talking about replacing a 9mm that holds 15 rounds...theyre not gonna pick a .45 with a 7 round mag thats just as heavy as the new polymers that can hold 14 with better recoil characteristics

[BadKarma26]

also ed, did you shoot the service model (4" and more common) or the tactical model (5" not as common)

[ed316]

also ed, did you shoot the service model (4" and more common) or the tactical model (5" not as common)

I believe it was the 4". BTW is the XD even in the running?

[BadKarma26]

I believe it was the 4". BTW is the XD even in the running?

I just called the Springfield Armory Government sales office and left a message. Waiting to hear back for an answer

[ed316]

I just called the Springfield Armory Government sales office and left a message. Waiting to hear back for an answer

They have excellent CS. They always got back to me within 48 hours.

[Hollis]

bang bang bang bang bang bang bang

or

bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang

thats no personal preference. thats being in a panick situation with 7 rounds...

we're talking about replacing a 9mm that holds 15 rounds...theyre not gonna pick a .45 with a 7 round mag thats just as heavy as the new polymers that can hold 14 with better recoil characteristics


Heck I got you beat, with my 1919 Browning and a 200 Rd belt. LOL. (not going to type 200 "bangs")

Last fire fight I got into was in 1969. Last time I check the Military still issue the stuff they want one to carry.

in a SMG 9mm is nasty, in a pistol, as a Retired SF Master Sgt(or Sgt Major, I forgot) would say, "9mm is 45 set on stun".

BTW I own 9mms too, in pistols and carbines. I like the round, it has a purpose. IMHO more for LEO than military.

[SMGLee]

How can a person stuff a 40 (10mm case) in to a 9mm hole? Not ever sure if the 9mm mags would take or feed a 40 case.


What i mean is the gun itself was originally designed for 9mm, when they changed it to a 40, Glock was trying to stuff a 40 into a frame that was designed for 9mm. It end up producing some pressure problems and also the higher recoil cause trigger parts to fail faster.

[ABNINF]

Helped by four deals in Afghanistan since April 2005, including a $15 million sale of 50,500 pistols to the Afghan National Police, Smith & Wesson's revenue jumped 27 percent to $160 million in the fiscal year that ended in April, after growth had slowed to 5.2 percent in fiscal 2005.

Yeah, too bad the Afghans have had nothing but problems with those pistols. I'm sure a good portion of it is user-malfunctions, but I heard of ans saw a bunch of parts failures with those pistols.

[Hollis]

What i mean is the gun itself was originally designed for 9mm, when they changed it to a 40, Glock was trying to stuff a 40 into a frame that was designed for 9mm. It end up producing some pressure problems and also the higher recoil cause trigger parts to fail faster.


Thanks, Lee, I just could not invision what was happening. I would have think Glock would have done better.

[akd]

I believe it was the 4". BTW is the XD even in the running?

The XD in its current form does not meet the JCP requirements, I believe.

[BadKarma26]

The XD in its current form does not meet the JCP requirements, I believe.

what requirements doesn't it meet (aside from the manual safety)

[mi35d]

Meanwhile, just to continue the debate, I prefer the SIG P226 over the Glock and Beretta 92. Far better balanced and accurate than either one. (And yes, I've carried both and now own a 226 for competitive shooting. Love that handgun.)

[-stk-]

Does anyone know if compact, sub-compact versions of the M&P will be made in the future? Seeing as the pistol is intended for Law enforcement as well, i would like to think they will, but I havent been able to find any info.

[SMGLee]

Does anyone know if compact, sub-compact versions of the M&P will be made in the future? Seeing as the pistol is intended for Law enforcement as well, i would like to think they will, but I havent been able to find any info.

Compact is due out in a few months and the 45 full size is due by Shot.. no words on sub-compacts yet.

[Limeyfellow]

Meanwhile, just to continue the debate, I prefer the SIG P226 over the Glock and Beretta 92. Far better balanced and accurate than either one. (And yes, I've carried both and now own a 226 for competitive shooting. Love that handgun.)

I find the Sig is much better ergonomics than the Beretta 92. The Beretta is so damn wide in the handle of the ones I used it just doesn't suit me very well. I could just have odd sized hands however.

[Hollis]

I find the Sig is much better ergonomics than the Beretta 92. The Beretta is so damn wide in the handle of the ones I used it just doesn't suit me very well. I could just have odd sized hands however.


I think it is a size issue. As with feet we don't all shar hand sizes. I had a Beretta, really liked it. I like a wider grip vs a narrow one. One reason I always like N frame Smiths.

[-stk-]

Heres a link with pics and a little info on the M&P compact. Looks awesome.

http://mp-pistol.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=170