Gulf War II, What are your thoughts?

[Yard Ape]

It seems there is still a lot of debate over the merits of the second Gulf War. It is an "old" issue, but it keeps popping into other threads. So, lets have it out here.

I believe we should have pushed the first Gulf War until Saddam & his regime were removed from power, but it seems political workings of the first coalition would not allow for that. I would have liked to have seen UN support for the current war but, when opposing veto powers made it clear they were not going to allow compromise, that option became impossible. I was never convinced of the WMD, but always new that Saddam deserved to be dethroned. I am now fully supportive of the military & reconstruction efforts going on in the country.

Where do you stand? Why?

[HELEX]

I voted:


I do not support the second war & occupation, but I think we should have pressed the first war until Saddam was toppled.

And I want to see the Bush administration in Jail. The only option to repair the whole mess before everything goes to hell is to remove all american and british troops and send UN Soldiers in.

[mustamato]

I did not support the second war, but now that it is over I fully support the military and reconstruction effort to rebuild the country

And well, US gets punished enough as it is with servicemen and contractors
killed on a daily basis. And I hope that the voters will punish Bush by simply
not voting on him. Bush tried in Hague would be nice, but it´s not realistic.

[Yard Ape]

Would you have been more supportive of this war if the west had previously shown a commitment to intervening in all countries in which the government commits atrocities?

[HELEX]

Afghanistan surely was No. 1 on every priority list, but Iraq was nowhere in the top ten.... that is for sure.

[Yard Ape]

You don't believe that he deserved to be removed from power for the oppressive regime that he ran and the countless human rights violations that it committed?

I was not convinced of the WMD and (like France & Germany) would have liked to have seen more time given to the inspectors (but like the US & UK, I felt that clear military consequences should have been stated should that time pass with no resolution). Despite all that, I felt the war was justified for brutality the Iraqi people were subject to.

I would like to see similar actions taken in all countries that murder their citizens and deny human rights & dignity, but I know that there is not enough military capacity in the world to make that happen.

[mustamato]

Afghanistan surely was No. 1 on every priority list, but Iraq was nowhere in the top ten.... that is for sure.

Yeah I agree. I didn´t oppose the attack on the talibans, sadly it seems that
it was "job done" when the the talibans lost Kabul. I don´t think that Afghanistan
is so much better today than it was say 10 years ago. Many of the filthy pigs,
aka warlords that have commited horrific crimes against humanity is now "OK"
just because they are "allies" for the moment. One of these is Rashid Dostum...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1615000/images/_1619969_dostum300.jpg
Rashid Dostum

... this nice chap that have changed sides more often than I have changed
girlfriends. And that have had POW´s run over by tanks etc etc. He is just one of
many in Afghanistan, I´m afraid that the changes in Afghanistan is marginal,
and in a couple of years it will be worse. Why just not finish the job in Afghanistan
before attacking Iraq? If Bush gets re-elected it wouldn´t suprise me if he attacks
another country (Syria or Iran) with neither Afghanistan or Iraq finished first.


Despite all that, I felt the war was justified for brutality the Iraqi people were subject to.

USA is the only country in the world that can get rid of people like Saddam,
but I don´t think US should do it, who knows how many hundreds of thousands
of Iraqis that have been killed because of US, (Iran-Iraq war, GW1, UN sanctions)
etc. Americans usually tend to forget that, but I can promise you that the Iraqis
have not. Iraqis hated Saddam, but he was atleast a Iraqi, he spoke arabic
and he was a moslem (or well is). What do they have in common with Americans?
We take democracy for granted, but whats says that they would even want it?

[Yard Ape]

I´m afraid that the changes in Afghanistan is marginal, and in a couple of years it will be worse. Why just not finish the job in Afghanistan before attacking Iraq? I agree with what you are saying and it is the reason that I voted:
I supported the war but felt that we should have met other priorities first

[HELEX]

So can you explain to me what exactely was the difference between Iraq and Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Pakistan, Iran, Oman or Yemen was? Arent there Dictators?
If you shut your mouth and do your Job you can live a normal live, when you do something political you get jailed ant tortured in all of these countries.
The chemical Weapon thing was in the War with thumb up from the United states. And the uprising in the south was financed by the US, after it was over normal live returned.
And the turkish troops are not that nice to the kurds, but they are a NATO country.

[MolliG]

Voted...

I supported the war but felt that we should have met other priorities first
... As that's the best of the choices that suited my thoughts. I supported and still continue to support all troops of the coalition, but not the politicians so much, as well simply, in my opinion, they went about it all the wrong way.

:)

[Yard Ape]

Which of those countries would you put ahead of Iraq? Yes, there are some that could arguably go first. However, for those which are on diplomatic good terms with the west, is it not possible to persue political routes to the same goal? Iraq had already shown itself resitant to non-military measures.

Many countries are considerably weaker than Iraq. Buy hitting the "big guy" first, could we have intimidated some into peacefully seeing our way? Libya is getting out of the WMD buisness.

[HELEX]

Libya is getting out of the WMD buisness.

That is not because of Iraq, they started that way long before the whole issue when they started paying Money to the Bombing victims of Lybian origin. Saddam was no big guy after desert Storm, his army was destroyed. And it still was in 2002.

[Yard Ape]

What of the rest of my post?

[HELEX]

However, for those which are on diplomatic good terms with the west, is it not possible to persue political routes to the same goal?

What exactely has been achieved due diplomatic pressure in Saudi arabia so far?
How many Saudis were among the terrorists of 9/11?


Iraq had already shown itself resitant to non-military measures.

Iraq had very good diplomatic contacts to the US before attacking Kuwait....

[Yard Ape]

However, for those which are on diplomatic good terms with the west, is it not possible to persue political routes to the same goal?What exactely has been achieved due diplomatic pressure in Saudi arabia so far? How many Saudis were among the terrorists of 9/11?I do not think it is fair to use those terrorists as an example. The had been living in the west & set in thier mission for many years prior to the attack. I suspect that the west had not fully exercised its favourable relations to resolve terrorist issues until after the 11 Sept attacks. (If you could show this, it would be a valid critisism). Since the attacks, many countries have made visible efforts to fight internal terrorist cells. On the issue of human rights, I am not so certain much has changed. More diplomatic effort needs to be spent on this.



Iraq had already shown itself resitant to non-military measures. Iraq had very good diplomatic contacts to the US before attacking Kuwait....Yes, but those good relations were no longer an option leading into this war.

[HELEX]

Saddam offered to step back and allow free elections under UN control, a week before all this started. But that will mean Iraq is suddenly a fundamentalists state. The US didnt like that Idea.....

For Saudi Arabia:

The point is, Saudi-Arabia is a extremely rich country with extremely poor people in it. The royal family there is even worse than Saddam was in that issue. The saudi people are getting pissed about that....

[Yard Ape]

Would you have supported a war against Saudi Arabia then? (If you would not, then you should not use this as an argument against war with Iraq)

[HELEX]

Not really, because it will bring the same problems as in Iraq. And a Saudi democracy will mean a fundamentalist state too.
The Afghanistan issue isnt over, so IMHO dont start something new if the old things arent finished. There was no need to do something in Iraq in that time.
First thing after Afghanistan should have been solving the palestinian Problem, even if there is really much pressure needed to put on Israel.

After solving that problem the hate Motor will run out of fuel....

[Yard Ape]

If UN inspectors had found WMD, would your opinion have been any different?

[NcDeuce]

http://ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/sucks.gif

[mustamato]

http://ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/sucks.gif

If you don´t have anything consructive to say, stfu.

[HELEX]

If UN inspectors had found WMD, would your opinion have been any different?

No, without carrying systems they are useless. And when he really would have used them(Whithout big effect, because C Weapons are not that effective) the US and Israel will have a blanco cheque to do what they want.

The united States have no Problem with Northkorean Nukes pointed at them....

[NcDeuce]

http://ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/sucks.gif

If you don´t have anything consructive to say, stfu.

I will not feed the trolls, shi* for brains.

[Yard Ape]

If UN inspectors had found WMD, would your opinion have been any different?

No, without carrying systems they are useless. And when he really would have used them(Whithout big effect, because C Weapons are not that effective) the US and Israel will have a blanco cheque to do what they want.

The united States have no Problem with Northkorean Nukes pointed at them....But they did discover carrying systems that could reach beyond stipulated limits.

[HELEX]

But they did discover carrying systems that could reach beyond stipulated limits.

But only some Kilometers, even with the double range they were no threat. And Iraq started to destroy the Systems before the Attack. That was only nutpicking to find a casus belli.

[Yard Ape]

Despite all that, I felt the war was justified for brutality the Iraqi people were subject to.

USA is the only country in the world that can get rid of people like Saddam, but I don´t think US should do it, who knows how many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis that have been killed because of US, ... What do they have in common with Americans? We take democracy for granted, but whats says that they would even want it?
So, the US is the only country that could have freed the people of Iraq from a brutal government but the US should not have freed them?! Does this mean it would be just to have allowed more to be murdered at the whim of Saddam & his hiers? Do you apply this logic to all nations? The world should not take measures to protect populations that are murdered by their governments?

[Yard Ape]

Wow. We have a Sixgun supporter. Would be intrested to hear his/her views.