Spanish Civil War

[EvanL]

I have read about Canadians being involved in the SCW, especially that guy who performed the first blood transfusions. I think his name was Bethune. Were foreign powers officially involved or was it just foreigners volunteering for it?

[Lobo]

You got here Stalin's Soviet Union, Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany sending troops, advisors and weapons. Italy sent the "Corpo di Tropa Voluntaria" (Voluntary Troops Corps). Germany sent Luftwaffe's "Legión Cóndor", famous for Guernika's village bombing and the USSR sent advisors.

Spain was the test field for WW2. The Luftwaffe's tested here the Me-109 and the Ju-87 Stuka.

[EvanL]

You got here Stalin's Soviet Union, Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany sending troops, advisors and weapons. Italy sent the "Corpo di Tropa Voluntaria" (Voluntary Troops Corps). Germany sent Luftwaffe's "Legión Cóndor", famous for Guernika's village bombing and the USSR sent advisors.

Spain was the test field for WW2. The Luftwaffe's tested here the Me-109 and the Ju-87 Stuka.
What about Canadians? I know there was a canadian connection but i dont know what exactly.

[ogukuo72]

There was the International Brigade made up of people from all over the world (in the context of that time: Europe and the US). A lot of Americans, Canadians, Brits and French served. The famous French philosopher, Simone Weil was in that brigade.

They fought on the side of the socialist government against Franco's Nationalist forces. As such, they are seen as left-wing sympathesizers or communists (which undoubtedly a lot of them were) when they returned home. Of course, the home government were not interested at all in debriefing them about the tactics, combat effectiveness, and weapons employed by the Germans in the war.

In any case, idealists fighting as infantrymen/guerillas would probably not be able to provide the kind of cold analysis of combat that this would require.

[PsihoKeke]

Germany sent to spain Legion Condor to test new weapons and tactics, and to train Francos troops. The most notable achivments of Germans were air transportation of legion and marocan units at the begining of conflict and infamus destruction of Guernica.
Italy sent blackshirt units and also regular army units, four divisons + air units. There were 50 000 italian troops, at the hight of involvment. Italy was also main weapons suplier for nationalist. Most embarasing moment for this troops was during Guadallara ofensive when advancing italian troops were overrun by numericaly inferior italian troops from international brigades.
From Portugal came 20 000 volunters (Legion de Virago) for nationalist.
There were also contingent of irish blueshirts, english faschists, russian emigrants...

On republican side the biggest weapons suplier was Soviet union, which also sent many military advisors. Many of these advisors saw action as members of tank and aircraft crews.
International brigades:
- France 10 000
- Germany and Austria 5 000
- Italy 3 500
- USA 3 000
- UK 2 800
- Yugoslavia 1 200
- Canada 1 000
- Hungary 1 000
- scandinavian lands 1 000
- Ireland 500

Altogether there were 65 diferent natinalities in internationalities in international brigades. There was also unknown number of foreign volunteers fighting in POUM and CNT militias (most famous was George Orwell).

Many of these volunteers formed the core of the partisan movments after their homelands were owerrun by nazi warmachine.

[Loco]

Really, blood transfusions were well know in Spain many time before Civil War. In the field of Medicine, the only significant advance was the treatment of war injuries by the catalan surgeon Josep Trueta. He worked in the republican side and developped new techniques for this kind of injuries, so he could rise the survivance rate greatly. After spanish war, he had to go to exile, and he was offered teaching in Oxford, just at time of the beginning of IIWW, so he could train in new technics military british docs. Medicine was the privileged branch in republican side, and even with scarce resources, they did a very good work both in the front and in the rearguard. In the rebel side, in general they did a good job too with war medicine, and in the inmediate post-war they organized an efficient team for treating famine and tuberculosis.
Of what PsihoKekec said, he´s wrong regarding the air bridge between North Africa and Spain. The air bridge was used in the first moments by rebel forces in spanish piloted planes because in that time they didn´t controll the strait´s waters. They used mainly Ju-52 of the rebel forces, there´re many pictures of this, so this is perhaps why you think germand were there, but no. Legion Condor even wasn´t born in that time. Those Ju-52, together with some italians bombers Savoia were bought with a loan of Juan March, an spanish millionaire who financed the coup d´etat, and with the help of the king Alfonso XIII, who was exiliated in Rome.
Simone Weil never was a combatant, she only showed herself in Spain, she did an activist and propaganda work.

[Loco]

About the beginning of the Spanish War, do not forget some facts: The 16th of july of 1936, in the eve of the war, there was a democratic republic in Spain, ruled by an electoral coalition of republicans, liberals and socialists(not comunists) called "Frente Popular", just like in France in the same dates. The spanish comunist party in that time was small, very few people were afiliated to that party. The spanish fascist party, Falange, was very small too, but with the war both parties became importants in each side, because they got more cash from they foreing supporters.
About "Brigadas Internacionales", well, like its name show, there were serveral brigades, not only one. BI were organizaed by stalinists comunists(do not confuse with Poum and other comunists followers of Trotsky), so they were which got the best gear and armament. In all, between 30.000 or 39.000 men served in the BI, not all of them were comunists, of course, but they joined the BI because they had and organized system for bringing people with documents since foreings countries to Spain, and they were resoluted to fighting against fascism. If we compare this figures, the italians sent 40.000 soldiers to Spain, and Franco got 70.000 moors from Marroq.
The democratic parties in France, GBritain and USA never were a clear supporters of spanish republica, nor they give enough to Spain for fighting for democracy, even Stalin supported spanish republic drop by drop, when it was good for Soviet Union, and 10 months before the war the BI were disbanded. Spanish republic never had enough weapons, contrary to the rebels, which since the first moment had the support of Germany and Italy. Rebels alway had enough troops, tanks and planes. Some of the european powers, France, GBritain, Germany and Italy, organized a conference and they agreed in to not interven in Spain, and even divided the spanish coast in 4 sectors under the surveillance of each country, to stopping any foreing help to any band of the war. But here Germany and Italy showed one of the worst signs of treachery ever seen, since they helped the rebels against the spanish government, when they were supposed to be vigilating the smuggling of arms. Italian submarines sunk some cargo ships bringing legally weapons to spanish republic, although they never identified themselves. Germany sunk a republican submarine who was in a spanish port anchored, in Malaga, killing all the crew, but they never of course clamed they were the guilties.

[Loco]

http://www.terra.es/personal2/mas_jag/frente/estrecho2.jpg
http://www.terra.es/personal2/mas_jag/frente/estrecho1.jpg
Tropas Regulares(berbers soldiers) waiting to fly to Spain on board of Ju-52.

[PsihoKeke]

Sorry, my mistake.

As for involvement: democratic states turned back to the democratic elected goverment, claiming uninvolvment, while Germany and Italy openly suported rebels. Under guise of volunteer force Musolini even sent units of regular army (conscripts).

[Loco]

Sorry, my mistake.

As for involvement: democratic states turned back to the democratic elected goverment, claiming uninvolvment, while Germany and Italy openly suported rebels. Under guise of volunteer force Musolini even sent units of regular army (conscripts).
You don´t have to say sorry, always it´s nice if anyone of a foreing country is interested in our history. If you´ve some question, please feel free to ask, me or any other spanish around here it´s sure will answer to you. And if you´ve something you know about this war or people of your country involved in spanish war, please you write about it. Btw, the figures you wrote about nationalities joining the BInternacionales, are basically right. :)

[foxtrot023]

Germany sent to spain Legion Condor to test new weapons and tactics, and to train Francos troops.

I wasn´t aware that Germany trained any troops in Spain. Are you sure about that? because as you point out the Condor Legion was famous for transporting the nationalist troops from Morrocco and the bombing of Guernica, but so far as I know there was no major german (or rather nazi Germany official) group in land fighting.

Regards

[PsihoKeke]

Germany suplied rebels with weapons and Legion Condor trained them in using this weapons, especially aircraft.

[foxtrot023]

Hello PsihoKekec,

I believed the major arms (as in army weapons) supplier to the nationalists were the Italians, not the germans, which usually were more aloof, and only dedicated themselves to the air campaign. Thanks for the info.

Regards

[PsihoKeke]

Italy was indeed the main suplyer for Franco, but substantial part of his airforce was of german origin. For instance: as the Legion Condor recived the new models of aircraft, the older were simply passed to nationalist airforce. First aircraft recived were Ju-52 bomber/transport aircraft that were promptly used for transportation of troops in Maroco (as Loco stated that was before the legion Condor). They were followed later by obsolete He 46 and He 51 which were similar to italian CR32. They were followed by He 70 and Yu 86 bombers. In 1938 germans also suplied rebels with earlier wersions of Bf 109 and He 111. Nationalists also recived the remaining Hs 123 dive bombers and He 112 fighters that lost to Yu 87 and Bf 109.
Apart from that Germans also delivered much antiaircraft weapons , including dreaded 88's

[Loco]

Germany supplied rebels air force with Me-109 and Ju-52, those planes were incorporated to Franco´s leaded army, and thence piloted by spanish pilots, which were of course trained by germans in the new machines. Germans, themselves, operated in Legion Condor the same planes and He-111 and Stukas. This force was enterely german, although they operated ander the war plan of Franco´s staff. But the infamous Gernika bombing was an initiative exclusively of german officers, who planed the bombing with the aime of testing how to burning first and after that leveling building. Although Gernika is a town, in that time and now had big stone building very resistant, a factor that was considered with interest by germans. The bombing was a joint operation of germans and italians air forces, since they were at least 3 italian light bombers who spotted and signaled the targets before the german bombers.
Germans delievered too to rebels the famous flak cannon, the 8x8, one of the great achievements in the battlefield of that war, it was in civil war when it was found it was a great antitank weapon. And they issued other artillery to rebels forces and gave the necessary training to spanish gunners. Legion Condor wasn´t only an air force, they have a group of artillery too, operated by the german themselves in the front. So, germans fought in air war and in land forces were involved only as gunners.
Italians sold to Franco the core of his air force and armoured units. The bomber Savoia Marchetti, perhaps not very famous as other german bombers of that time, was very appreciated by spanish pilots, and it proved being a very good bomber. The rebels fighter squadrons were built around the Fiat Cr-32, one of the last biplane fighters. The Cr-32 was in the 1936 a new model, far better that anyother fighter plane in that time, only when the republicans got the Polikarpov-16(called "rata") could stop the Cr-32(called "chirri"), although the republicans never had enough stuff. The Cr-32 was in that time better than the Me-109, although it´s true that this plane was in its first versions, by the end of the civil war, the Me-109 was becoming the new power in the air.

[Mamon]

Medicine was the privileged branch in republican side, and even with scarce resources, they did a very good work both in the front and in the rearguard. In the rebel side, in general they did a good job too with war medicine, and in the inmediate post-war they organized an efficient team for treating famine and tuberculosis.

My grandfather on mother's side was a surgeon in Franco's Army. I'm not sure what unit/where he was, but he served for the entire conflict. I'll have to find out more information this summer when I visit my family. I remember my aunts telling the story about how he would always treat soldiers from both sides because he had always been a doctor, and a strong Christian and felt compelled to treat the Republicans also. There were times when he would sneak across the lines at night and a sentry would take aim, but at the last moment he would hear them say "Wait, it is Don Federico coming, don't shoot" Some of his brother's are still alive though, one of them I believe fought en la Division Azul. I'll have to find out this summer :)

[juhae]

Germany supplied rebels air force with Me-109 and Ju-52 ... Germans, themselves, operated in Legion Condor the same planes and He-111 and Stukas.
You forgot to mention He-51, flown by both Spanish and German pilots. Bf-109B's arrived in 1937, C's and D's in 1938.

[Kellhound]

Main supplier of tanks for National forces was...
Republican forces!!

Most soviet T26 tanks (best tank in the war) ended in Nationals hands, some brought in by deserters (disenchanted with soviet "assessors" and comunists comissars) but the majority were captured in combat (500 pesetas bounty for a captured tank) and put in service against their former owners.
They were far superior to panzers I and II used by Nationals and saw service for years after the war (an armored company equipped with T26 was stationed close to Barcelona), mainly for the high numbers in existence from 400 to 1000 depending on the sources consulted.

[Mark_Aspen]

Just realized I hadn't crediterd the guy who wrote this. It wasn't me.

"Historian Peter Carroll of Stanford University, who directs the Lincoln Brigade Archives, cited some of the basic statistics in an interview.

Of the 2,800 American volunteers, nearly 40 percent were Jewish, one-third were killed in battle, and some 70 percent were Communists or members of the Communist Youth League.

Thousands more fought or served as medical personnel in the other international brigades, with contingents from 50 countries, including a Yiddish-speaking unit from Poland.

Another 84-year-old veteran, Benjamin Lane, came up from La Jolla for the exhibit. A flight engineer for Pan Am as a civilian, he went over to help the outmoded Spanish Air Force fight a hopeless battle against Hitler's newly minted Luftwaffe.

Like most of the volunteers, he rejoined the battle against the Nazis with the U.S. armed forces during World War II, although few were ever able to shake Washington's suspicions of the "premature anti-fascists" of the Lincoln Brigade."

There's also: http://www.alba-valb.org/

[PsihoKeke]

Italy suplied 950 tanks to Franco, so they were the bigest tank suplier. Many were captureddirectly from Italians in failed Guadallara ofensive, I have picture of about 40 tanks in my war history book.

Most of the soviet tanks were captured after the fall of republic, so only a part of them was actualy used in combat on nationalist side.

[Kellhound]

I should have said "better" supplier, in the ironic sense. ;)

Quite a few were captured in combat according to funds provisions for "bounties for captured enemy war material". Rifles and pistols were cheaper, machineguns (some models) rated higher than motor vehicles, and top of the list the T26, even higher than many fighter planes.
I'll try to find a web source or i'll have to scan some old defense bulletins about it.