EU needs constitution with Christian reference, Merkel says after visiting Pope

[Pytheas]

EU needs constitution with Christian reference, Merkel says


29.08.2006 - 09:46 CET | By Lucia Kubosova


German chancellor Angela Merkel has suggested Europe needs a constitution that makes reference to Christianity and God following her audience with Pope Benedict XVI on Monday (29 August).

The German leader, the daughter of a protestant pastor, visited the Pope at his summer residence in Castel Gandolfo, Italy, to discuss several issues in European and international politics, ahead of the Pope's September visit to Germany, his homeland.

"We spoke about freedom of religion," Ms Merkel told journalists following the 45-minute meeting.

She added "I underlined my opinion that we need a European identity in the form of a constitutional treaty and I think it should be connected to Christianity and God, as Christianity has forged Europe in a decisive way," according to press reports.

The Christian Democrat leader has previously spoken out in favour of reopening the debate on religion in the constitution as the EU considers how to tackle the deadlock after the treaty's rejection by French and Dutch voters last year.

Germany has been assigned by EU member states to come up with some kind of solution to the constitutional crisis during its presidency of the union in the first six months of 2007.

Like Mrs Merkel, some leading figures of the European People's Party - the federalist centre-right pan-European group - have pointed out that a possible re-drafted treaty should include clear links to Europe's Christian heritage.

During earlier negotiations on the content of the new EU charter, Spain, Italy and Poland were among the strongest supporters of a reference to God in the treaty.

But its opponents argued it could prove controversial in view of Turkey's potential membership of the EU as well as due to the strict separation of state and church in some countries, such as France.

Currently, the preamble refers to Europe's religious heritage only in general terms.

"Drawing inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, the values of which, still present in its heritage, have embedded within the life of society the central role of the human person and his or her inviolable and inalienable rights, and respect for law," it states.

http://euobserver.com/9/22280

:)

That would be a very nice twist indeed...

Europe needs a common identity, and christianity has to be one of the pillars for it.

[Luno]

Hmmm bad bad bad idea the two largest Christians groups in Europe are Catholics and protestant and I have a bad felling that this will end in fighting between those groups :cantbeli:

[DeltaWhisky58]

Well, bearing in mind that this is the 21st century, IMO there should be no reference to religion whatsoever. Religion in one form or another has been responsible for too much conflict, persecution and other problems throughout the World - it should not be relevant to modern day politics.

[tikwi]

society has been trying to separate politics and religion for years -- no, dump that, centuries -- and failed

there is no such thing as the separation of the church and the state. that is, unless if something changes the way men have been doing things

[Lazy Lob]

Anyone interested in this fascinating subject I highly recommend the following book by Sam Harris. Its easy-ish reading and short, plus you can skip chapters.

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/5937/endoffaithppbukvh0.jpg

[roland]

society has been trying to separate politics and religion for years -- no, dump that, centuries -- and failed

there is no such thing as the separation of the church and the state. that is, unless if something changes the way men have been doing things

Failed ? not everywhere.

That's a very bad idea. We more re less had successfully kicked the clerics back to there church, that was painfull, even bloody, but that was done and I don't wish to do it again just because we had reoppened the pandorra box.

Removing religion from our mind thanks to the Enlightened gave Europe our power, that comes from logic, science and reason instead of passion and superstition.
THAT is our comon identity and had replaced Christianity long ago.

[signatory]

Leave this decision to each respective member state. OK ?

[Herrmannek]

Well, bearing in mind that this is the 21st century, IMO there should be no reference to religion whatsoever. Religion in one form or another has been responsible for too much conflict, persecution and other problems throughout the World - it should not be relevant to modern day politics.

Good you are not worl wide moderator then :) ...

Generaly speaking
If not christianity there would be no Europe as we know today... and all of you could put all your sperating religion from the state ideas up into ass :) This is about preamble only. simple stating a fact that Europe was build on christain values nothing more, those values are valid with religion or without..its simple as that... It doesn't break separation of reliogion from the state at all...

[DaGreatRV]

What happened to freedom of religion! I am glad my nation has lost it's faith. p-)

[Herrmannek]

And what has freedom of religion to the stating historic facts ?

[DaGreatRV]

And what has freedom of religion to the stating historic facts ?


Why do those historic facts belong in our constitution?

If you assosiate your state with one religion there will be inequality.

[Switek]

Well, bearing in mind that this is the 21st century, IMO there should be no reference to religion whatsoever. Religion in one form or another has been responsible for too much conflict, persecution and other problems throughout the World - it should not be relevant to modern day politics.

Religion is a very useful and easy mean to justify or describe some conflicts. It's easy to observe, seems be obvious root of conflicts... IMHO wrong attiude. Most conflicts arise becouse of economic reasons: water, oil, diamonds, land etc. I call it second bottom, much more impotrant than religious slogans...

The current law system, protection of every single life is influenced, whether we want to admit or not by christianity. Protestants had a very important contribution in current western economic system.

Many values we share in ordinary life comes in significant part from christianity...

[DeltaWhisky58]

Good you are not worl wide moderator then :) ...

Generaly speaking
If not christianity there would be no Europe as we know today... and all of you could put all your sperating religion from the state ideas up into ass :) This is about preamble only. simple stating a fact that Europe was build on christain values nothing more, those values are valid with religion or without..its simple as that... It doesn't break separation of reliogion from the state at all...


Religion is a very useful and easy mean to justify or describe some conflicts. It's easy to observe, seems be obvious root of conflicts... IMHO wrong attiude. Most conflicts arise becouse of economic reasons: water, oil, diamonds, land etc. I call it second bottom, much more impotrant than religious slogans...

The current law system, protection of every single life is influenced, whether we want to admit or not by christianity. Protestants had a very important contribution in current western economic system.

Many values we share in ordinary life comes in significant part from christianity...

I think I am correct in the assumption that both of you come from a state where religion is very important to all, however there are a number of EU states such as Britain and The Netherlands to name but two where it plays a much smaller part - perhaps you may not have considered this.

Whilst I fully support the concept of the EU being run on a system based on the moral values brought about by Christianity, religion itself must not be allowed to influence the running of government.

[Lazy Lob]

...............The current law system, protection of every single life is influenced, whether we want to admit or not by christianity....


That is a myth. The protection of (human) life in any society life predates organised religion. We are hardwired as tribal individuals to protect and foster the living in our own tribe. Religion has just piggybacked on this with a dodgy “registered trademark”.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Religion is a PITA.

You can't base the government of an entire continent on pandering to the superstitious psychopathology of people who need imaginary friends. :roll:

[oldsoak]

Religion is a PITA.

You can't base the government of an entire continent on pandering to the superstitious psychopathology of people who need imaginary friends. :roll:

Dont gimme that - I've heard about you cavorting around cissbury ring in the dead of night ...:lol:

You can, and people have - hence the Holy Roman Empire, Ottoman empire, Mauryan empire etc. As we dont speak the same lingo, look alike or have the same customs, the common thread has to be something like religion or football.

[Freibier]

Religion should be a private pasttime and I see no place for it in a constitution.

[Switek]

That is a myth. The protection of (human) life in any society life predates organised religion. We are hardwired as tribal individuals to protect and foster the living in our own tribe. Religion has just piggybacked on this with a dodgy “registered trademark”.

Tribal system of protection human lifes concerns mainly only their members "ours".

[oldsoak]

Religion should be a private pasttime and I see no place for it in a constitution.

- depends - there are core values within religons which do have a place in a constitution. Most of EU law is based on Judaeo-Christian value systems, so we have certain ideas by default. Saying that the EU should use Brand X of a religion is of course another matter.

[Lazy Lob]

Tribal system of protection human lifes concerns mainly only their members "ours".

No it doesn't. Tribes that flourished sometimes did so by cooperating and trading with other tribes. You protect your allies and kill your enemies.

The necessity of survival is the blueprint of the society we live in today.

[Switek]

No it doesn't. Tribes that flourished sometimes did so by cooperating and trading with other tribes. You protect your allies and kill your enemies.

Agree, under one condition if they share the same or similar beliefs, values.

In Europe common denominator become christianity as universal system of values

[oldsoak]

No it doesn't. Tribes that flourished sometimes did so by cooperating and trading with other tribes. You protect your allies and kill your enemies.

The necessity of survival is the blueprint of the society we live in today.

Yes, but disagree on the concept of religion. There are things for which primitive societies have no concept or explanation for and for which religion supplies answers. Religion also supplies laws and taboos which are necessary to ensure social conduct is not at the whim of the powerful.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I think some of you are confusing the adoption of a broad-based value system with it's roots in religion with the forced adoption of the dogma of a religion. For example, my values fall pretty much in line with Christian values, but I don't follow the edicts of any Christian church.

Putting a faith-based reference into the law could be very useful. As more and more non-Christians enter Europe and form part of it's voting base - you can expect your laws to change along with them. Since they are also far more religious than native Europeans, you can also expect them to formulate laws based on their faith. The Christian world is far more prosperous than the Muslim world because they each allow different things. If laws in Europe are transformed to match those in Muslim lands, Europe will be just as prosperous and open as Pakistan for example.

Putting a traditional Christian stake in the ground to serve as a cultural center of gravity would allow Europe to maintain it's identity in the face of growing pressure from evangelical non-Christians. If, for example, they wanted to fundamentally change the banking system to outlaw the charging of interest on loans - the EU could cite the "tradition" part of the Constitution and say "no, traditionally that's part of our culture and is to be allowed" - they'd need a lot more clout to change the Constitution.

In short - you may not know it, but Europe is built on Christian values - but that can and will change. If you want Europe to stay European it may be useful to draw a cultural line in the sand, at least as a mechanism for blocking any big changes that others may have in mind.

[Lazy Lob]

Yes, but disagree on the concept of religion. There are things for which primitive societies have no concept or explanation for and for which religion supplies answers.

Religion can never supply any answers, reality based ones at least. If its very cornerstone is an imaginary being then how can he/she supply answers?


Religion also supplies laws and taboos which are necessary to ensure social conduct is not at the whim of the powerful.

Sometimes it does, sometimes these taboos prevent advancement and sometimes they are used at the whim of the powerful.


Putting a traditional Christian stake in the ground to serve as a cultural center of gravity would allow Europe to maintain it's identity in the face of growing pressure from evangelical non-Christians. If, for example, they wanted to fundamentally change the banking system to outlaw the charging of interest on loans - the EU could cite the "tradition" part of the Constitution and say "no, traditionally that's part of our culture and is to be allowed" - they'd need a lot more clout to change the Constitution.

In short - you may not know it, but Europe is built on Christian values - but that can and will change. If you want Europe to stay European it may be useful to draw a cultural line in the sand, at least as a mechanism for blocking any big changes that others may have in mind.

I have to agree with you on the above.

[Switek]

Whilst I fully support the concept of the EU being run on a system based on the moral values brought about by Christianity, religion itself must not be allowed to influence the running of government.

Church must be separated from secular institutions, 100% for sure.

But social life (esp in "multitribe Europe" p-) ) is like a mechanism: between cog-wheels (institutions, organisations, communities, companies etc.) we need lubricant. For me religion and its system of values is just lubricant, nothing more.

[oldsoak]

Religion can never supply any answers, reality based ones at least. If its very cornerstone is an imaginary being then how can he/she supply answers?



Sometimes it does, sometimes these taboos prevent advancement and sometimes they are used at the whim of the powerful.
.

Religion does supply a belief - now as much as we know that lightning is due to ionic discharges - such knowledge is not had by primitive societies who will interpret it according to their beliefs. To them it is an answer and its as real to them as our knowledge of physics is to us.

Taboos are often experience led. Incest increases the chances of genetic defects or disorders so its a common taboo. You can of course draw the wrong conclusion from an experience. Also, the use of religion as a means of exploiting the massess depends on the society reaching a certain level of sophistication or critical mass.

2sheds got me too.

[orange]

Putting religion in Our constitution won't work at all! As people have said before me, the moral values and such of Christianity are highly valuable but since they've already pretty much based most Western World countries laws on these values we're already set!

But I don't think that this would ever be accepted! Why? Religion has no place in politics whatsoever..

[perdurabo]

I think some of you are confusing the adoption of a broad-based value system with it's roots in religion with the forced adoption of the dogma of a religion. For example, my values fall pretty much in line with Christian values, but I don't follow the edicts of any Christian church.

Putting a faith-based reference into the law could be very useful. As more and more non-Christians enter Europe and form part of it's voting base - you can expect your laws to change along with them. Since they are also far more religious than native Europeans, you can also expect them to formulate laws based on their faith. The Christian world is far more prosperous than the Muslim world because they each allow different things. If laws in Europe are transformed to match those in Muslim lands, Europe will be just as prosperous and open as Pakistan for example.

Putting a traditional Christian stake in the ground to serve as a cultural center of gravity would allow Europe to maintain it's identity in the face of growing pressure from evangelical non-Christians. If, for example, they wanted to fundamentally change the banking system to outlaw the charging of interest on loans - the EU could cite the "tradition" part of the Constitution and say "no, traditionally that's part of our culture and is to be allowed" - they'd need a lot more clout to change the Constitution.

In short - you may not know it, but Europe is built on Christian values - but that can and will change. If you want Europe to stay European it may be useful to draw a cultural line in the sand, at least as a mechanism for blocking any big changes that others may have in mind.
100% agreed. It's not like it will be state raligion and all our laws will be based on Bible, and head of church will be head of european state. Europe mentally started in midleages, with christianity and its values (roman, greek , macedonian empires where rather mediterinian tha european). Why deny this? What nations are European? What apart from history and land we have in common?

[Lazy Lob]

Religion does supply a belief - now as much as we know that lightning is due to ionic discharges - such knowledge is not had by primitive societies who will interpret it according to their beliefs. To them it is an answer and its as real to them as our knowledge of physics is to us.

Yes but that is all it is, it is not an answer or explanation as to “why?”. Primitive cultures had little to go on but today we have a choice. Quoting Harris:
Unfortunately, we live in a world in which the obvious is overlooked as a matter of principle. The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for.


Taboos are often experience led. Incest increases the chances of genetic defects or disorders so its a common taboo. You can of course draw the wrong conclusion from an experience. Also, the use of religion as a means of exploiting the massess depends on the society reaching a certain level of sophistication or critical mass.

True.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

Dont gimme that - I've heard about you cavorting around cissbury ring in the dead of night ...:lol:

You can, and people have - hence the Holy Roman Empire, Ottoman empire, Mauryan empire etc. As we dont speak the same lingo, look alike or have the same customs, the common thread has to be something like religion or football.

That kind of proves my point look at all those defunct empires... and who told you about me indulging in satanic rituals?

[SniperAndy]

First of all she's a protestant herself and hasn't got a clue what she's talking about. Puting this woman in charge was one of the worst decissions ever in the last 60 years. But at least we can now join on military OP's again and send our kids down ot the crisis areas as well. Not that I don't agree with the current missions in Afgahnistan, Congo and soon Middle East...if we had a professional Army like other countries do and not this kids doing their military service. Atm we have a resources problem now anyway. To many missions the germans would like to join, to little man...:|

[Quietscheentchen]

i don't think that mixing politics and religion will end well. leave it for the personal choice of everyone.and which "christian" reference will it be? there are so many different branches of christianity...

[Herrmannek]

You guys disccus thing you don't have idea about.. No one will put a law that say you must be christian into constitution for GOd's sake... We are talking about preamble, part of the constitution that doesn't define laws but defines basis & historical perspective for the document itself... Among other things it will mention ancient Roman empire and Greece, Christianity, and modern intelectual currents our common culture is based on...

[Greek soldier]

Religion and the State are one since the very ancient times.

And both of them rely on each other. Whichever Greek political party, even the Communists, don't dare to open their mouth against the Greek Church (which is a huge pool of voters p-) ). And the Greek Church has tax priviledges from the Greek State.

Not to mention that half of Athens' real-estate belongs to the Greek Church.

[DeltaWhisky58]

That is all very well in a state such as Greece. Even here in the UK the established church owns huge areas of land and a fair part of London, but these days it doesn't have any political "clout" thank goodness.

[Herrmannek]

Religion and the State are one since the very ancient times.

And both of them rely on each other. Whichever Greek political party, even the Communists, don't dare to open their mouth against the Greek Church (which is a huge pool of voters p-) ). And the Greek Church has tax priviledges from the Greek State.

Not to mention that half of Athens' real-estate belongs to the Greek Church.
Christians are savy :)

[Vorian]

Most Europeans rarely go to church anyway.

[Herrmannek]

Most Europeans rarely go to church anyway.
THey rarely read Age of Enlightenment novels too...

[Greek soldier]

That is all very well in a state such as Greece. Even here in the UK the established church owns huge areas of land and a fair part of London, but these days it doesn't have any political "clout" thank goodness.

You are lucky that the Anglican Church doesn't have this power.

The Greek Church by itself is a "political party". It's been estimated that had she literally had a political party, she woud had taken some 3,000,000 votes. (!)

Whenever there is a social or international problem, the Archbishops shout. Even for the European Constitution they were opposed to the de-Christianisation of Europe. "Atheist Europe" they were saying all the time.

[kosse]

Lutheran and Orthodox church go hand in hand with the state here too but I don't believe that it shoud be written in the EU Constitutution. It works here because we are still very homogenous society..and church here doesn't give stupid advice publicly like Vatican or meddle with things outside religous matters.

But EU is nothing like that. I don't want EU to be seen as a christian protagonist. It would just offer christian churches leverage that they don't need (just stay out of politics!) and propably also danger attempts at peaceful co-existence with muslims. I get chills of the mere idea of taking even that one step towards religous state..like Iran. It's just nut to put it in constitution..it's religion and it has it's place but that place is nowhere near politics or legistlation..no religion should have a special status.

[Vorian]

You are lucky that the Anglican Church doesn't have this power.

The Greek Church by itself is a "political party". It's been estimated that had she literally had a political party, she woud had taken some 3,000,000 votes. (!)

Whenever there is a social or international problem, the Archbishops shout. Even for the European Constitution they were opposed to the de-Christianisation of Europe. "Atheist Europe" they were saying all the time.

I don't think they have that much power. Only the elderly and the village volks still listen to everything the Church says.

[Greek soldier]

I don't think they have that much power. Only the elderly and the village volks still listen to everything the Church says.

In the countryside it is even worse...:|

[c62]

I hate to break it to Europe but all societies are based on religous values to a large degree(not complete, but there is a huge impact). All laws are based on some set of morals. Murdering/Raping is not morally acceptable so we(US & Europe) passed a law against it.

If you could do something bad, yet legal, to another person, and yet you don't do it, that's your morals talking. It is impossible to create laws that will punish you from doing something(anything) bad to another person(wwwwwaaaaayyyy too many laws at that point) so societies rely on religion to help keep you in line. Societies tend to break down without the cohesion of religion to keep people from doing all sorts of nasty(yet legal) things to each other.

If raping a woman wasn't against the law, would you do it? If no, that's your icky morals( I mean religion) talking.

[Quietscheentchen]

but atheists and agnostics ( i'm not one of both!) also have moral principles, it don't have to be strictly connected to a religious base.

[Switek]

but atheists and agnostics ( i'm not one of both!) also have moral principles, it don't have to be strictly connected to a religious base.

Some of terms refer to the same. It doesn't matter whwther we call them "Supreme Power", "Nature" or "God". Intuitive people think about the same...

[Herrmannek]

but atheists and agnostics ( i'm not one of both!) also have moral principles, it don't have to be strictly connected to a religious base.
Even atheists/agnostics have souls(Conscience) :)

On the other side... We live in the age of Reason after all... So if I would be atheist I could logicaly consider conscience as some sort of atavistic body limitation and I could fight its by the rationalisation on the ground of egoism and the profit calculation. In example I could not hestitiate to do wrong things if I would think they would profit me even my consciense would say its immoral to do...

[Kaapeli]

So how would you have Christianity mentioned in the constitution? "The bible is the European law above all else"?
What effects would you expect it to have on Europe? Repelling other religions?

I think it's just a desparate move by the church to retain it's power and special privileges.

[Switek]

So how would you have Christianity mentioned in the constitution? "The bible is the European law above all else"?
What effects would you expect it to have on Europe? Repelling other religions?

I think it's just a desparate move by the church to retain it's power and special privileges.

there is a big difference between Church as an institution and christian values. Sometimes church violates this system becouse is driven by people who make mistakes. Does it meean that all system is wrong? Well ,church as institution changes itself...

[Herrmannek]

So how would you have Christianity mentioned in the constitution? "The bible is the European law above all else"?
What effects would you expect it to have on Europe? Repelling other religions?

I think it's just a desparate move by the church to retain it's power and special privileges.

AS it was and probably is now planed. Its a mere reference to Roman Empire, Greek, Christian(not even catholic as I believe) history of the Europe plus reference to French Revolution... To me French revolution is most controversial part of it...

[Kaapeli]

I don't see what's the point then if it doesn't even try to have any practical effects on anything but just to please religious people.
Constitution is not a history book and it's already too large a document that needs to be made more compact and simple.

[Herrmannek]

I don't see what's the point then if it doesn't even try to have any practical effects on anything but just to please religious people.
Constitution is not a history book and it's already too large a document that needs to be made more compact and simple.

because constitution without preamble is like a wedding without a toast...

[Quietscheentchen]

Some of terms refer to the same. It doesn't matter whwther we call them "Supreme Power", "Nature" or "God". Intuitive people think about the same...

i share your opinion partly ;), but regarding the constitution, i don't see why we can't have moral principles without a SPECIFIC christian reference. atheists, agnostics and people of other spiritual/religious systems would feel outsided.
it's quite unnecessary imho and would just be a base for trouble in the future...

[Herrmannek]

i share your opinion partly ;), but regarding the constitution, i don't see why we can't have moral principles without a SPECIFIC christian reference. atheists, agnostics and people of other spiritual/religious systems would feel outsided.
it's quite unnecessary imho and would just be a base for trouble in the future...

because if you out Christians you must out French Revolution and Roman Empire and all other stuff :). Problem started when All was included except the Christian part, and this was a historical lie, then after confrontation they changed it to "cultural and religious background" without calling names but that was as good as it wouldn't be at all so we are again back to begginig...

[Quietscheentchen]

because if you out Christians you must out French Revolution and Roman Empire and all other stuff :). Problem started when All was included except the Christian part, and this was a historical lie, then after confrontation they changed it to "cultural and religious background" without calling names but that was as good as it wouldn't be at all so we are again back to begginig...

well here in germany we don't hide the roots of christian inventions (may they be good or bad), although some few hardcore atheists would like to ban all connections to christian roots in our society.
imho the constitution simply doesn't need such a reference, and as a christian myself i don't feel outsided;)
you can still teach the christian influence on the society in history/political/religious class.

[Herrmannek]

I feel its very important..This constitution may be a document that will create a new quality, and for those who want fiddle with it should be clear where are we from and where we should be heading... throwing out of the window 2000 years of experience is like communist China destroying all proofs of the past glory and after something like 50years now it rushes to bring it back because experiment failed... We aren't that stupid do we?

[Kaapeli]

Okay so let's make the constitution into a historybook. Let's mention the Greek civilization, Roman empire, all the different native cultures and religions, Reneisance, Age of Enlightment, Christianity, Islamic influence, Humanism etc. They all have affected Europeans on so many levels. So everyone's happy.

[a_very_ex_STAB]

I hate to break it to Europe but all societies are based on religous values to a large degree(not complete, but there is a huge impact). All laws are based on some set of morals. Murdering/Raping is not morally acceptable so we(US & Europe) passed a law against it.

No it just means that unscrupulous politicians around the world use religion as the opiate of the masses to keep their sheeple in line.

[XShipRider]

In short - you may not know it, but Europe is built on Christian values - but that can and will change. If you want Europe to stay European it may be useful to draw a cultural line in the sand, at least as a mechanism for blocking any big changes that others may have in mind.

Agreed. The Pope indicated a "reference" to Christianity not codified
laws based on religious canon, edicts or bulls.

[Knutsen]

Most of EU law is based on Judaeo-Christian value systems, so we have certain ideas by default.

And the laws of some countries (spain for example) are based on the Roman laws.....p-)

Religion shouldn't be in the constitution, and if it is , it should also mention Islam, which was for 7 centuries an important part of what we know today as Europe.

[Herrmannek]

And the laws of some countries (spain for example) are based on the Roman laws.....p-)

Religion shouldn't be in the constitution, and if it is , it should also mention Islam, which was for 7 centuries an important part of what we know today as Europe.

Islam wasn't a religion we based our values on, Islam was a religion we fought to keep our identity...

[Lazy Lob]

And the laws of some countries (spain for example) are based on the Roman laws.....p-)

So why does Spain take the Sunday off work? What about all its national religious holidays? Maybe not enshrined in law but what does the Virgen de Loreto have to do with your airforce? That's just for starters. ;-)


Religion shouldn't be in the constitution, and if it is , it should also mention Islam, which was for 7 centuries an important part of what we know today as Europe.

As Herrmannek said: "Islam wasn't a religion we based our values on, Islam was a religion we fought to keep our identity..."

also

Christianty had arrived in Europe over 500 years before Islam decided to take a peak. For better or for worse.

[SniperAndy]

You guys disccus thing you don't have idea about.. No one will put a law that say you must be christian into constitution for GOd's sake... We are talking about preamble, part of the constitution that doesn't define laws but defines basis & historical perspective for the document itself... Among other things it will mention ancient Roman empire and Greece, Christianity, and modern intelectual currents our common culture is based on...

Hey right,
like the germans are still bringing up the WWII events over and over again rahter than moving on with it. Us germans are stuck in history and that's why the country doesn't move forward...

[Switek]

And the laws of some countries (spain for example) are based on the Roman laws.....p-)

Religion shouldn't be in the constitution, and if it is , it should also mention Islam, which was for 7 centuries an important part of what we know today as Europe.

Only civil jurisdiction is based on Roman laws. Capital punishment, for example, is banned in most European Countries (in whole EU, for sure). For me it is partly influenced by christian system of values.

There is an interesting custom. How many of you clink with glasses with alcohol? It's common habit in Europe having nothing with religion but has christian origin. Suond made by clinking was to terrify a devil who was in the bottom of glass p-)

[Herrmannek]

Hey right,
like the germans are still bringing up the WWII events over and over again rahter than moving on with it. Us germans are stuck in history and that's why the country doesn't move forward...
I can't see how bringing those events can stop Germany from developing :)

[oldsoak]

That kind of proves my point look at all those defunct empires... and who told you about me indulging in satanic rituals?

- just pulling your leg m8

[SniperAndy]

Ohhh and don't forget we're aparently the only ones that still pay tax to the church.
And it's taken straight out of your monthly payments form your employee...
Don't know if it is true that we're the only ones still under the catholic tax zhing, but I would belive this...:)

[Knutsen]

Only civil jurisdiction is based on Roman laws. Capital punishment, for example, is banned in most European Countries (in whole EU, for sure). For me it is partly influenced by christian system of values.

There is an interesting custom. How many of you clink with glasses with alcohol? It's common habit in Europe having nothing with religion but has christian origin. Suond made by clinking was to terrify a devil who was in the bottom of glass p-)

Yeah, and also to mix everyone's drinks to prevent someone from poisoning it.


Islam wasn't a religion we based our values on, Islam was a religion we fought to keep our identity...

Yeah, but they're part of the history, aren't they. And yes, Islam has been important to europe in many things, one of those for example is something you know very well... the natural numbers (that is, 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9). Until the muslims arrived in Europe we only used the (useless) roman numbers.

And btw, what has the virgen de loreto to do with roman laws??

[Knutsen]

Only civil jurisdiction is based on Roman laws. Capital punishment, for example, is banned in most European Countries (in whole EU, for sure). For me it is partly influenced by christian system of values.



And what about the inquisition? was it islamic?
The banning of the death penalty has arrived in europe only after effective separation of state and church....

[Switek]

And what about the inquisition? was it islamic?
The banning of the death penalty has arrived in europe only after effective separation of state and church....

Inquisition is the past, I hope like oter European inventions - just look at WW2...

When church is effectivly separated from the state then church can do what is his main job "moral education". I don't waana see any priest, bishop or pope as a leader of any political institutions (Vatican can be preverted in current form). It's obvious.

[Drako]

Okay so let's make the constitution into a historybook. Let's mention the Greek civilization, Roman empire, all the different native cultures and religions, Reneisance, Age of Enlightment, Christianity, Islamic influence, Humanism etc. They all have affected Europeans on so many levels. So everyone's happy.

The thing is that most of it is mentioned but Christianity isn't just because some people hearing the word "religion" are starting to act like mad. Christianity had the crucial influence on societies, art, philosophy, sience etc etc. It's not the matter of God, beliefs or such just the plain historically correctness. People want to cross it all out cos it was a religion and it is a plain hypocrisy.

[perdurabo]

Guys EU constitution is now few thousands of pages big! i think we need something small something that will say about our common values, our goals, identity, future etc...
How big is your country constitution? how it starts?
EU constitution starts:
The King of Belgium...

and should start like
We, peaple of Europe...

[Herrmannek]

And what about the inquisition? was it islamic?
The banning of the death penalty has arrived in europe only after effective separation of state and church....

Iqustion(by catholic church) was first internationaly wide court* to comply with modern law standards as Innoncent until proven guilty, right do defend and right for defender, fact this institution was abused by politicians(mainly civilian) is rather symptomatic for the time we are talking about than criminal atitiude of Church as a organisation...

And bannig death penalty as a effect of separation of the church from the state is pure lie... See China, USSR and satelites, se revolutionist France, on other hand you can look here and check Vatican
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777460.html none of those countries banned death penalty even in the 10 year proximity of constitutional separation of the church from the state...

[Herrmannek]

Guys EU constitution is now few thousands of pages big! i think we need something small something that will say about our common values, our goals, identity, future etc...
How big is your country constitution? how it starts?
EU constitution starts:
The King of Belgium...

and should start like
We, peaple of Europe...
I hope our goverment will fight for the real, just and welthinked constitution... IN a year pluss new works on constitution will start.. and I hope it will be not longer than 60 pages it warrant right of countries and define political mission of the EU, no more parities inside, who gets what and how much...

[tsuri]

This is the road Merkel is taking to get the constitutional treaty through. She wants the Christianity Reference to win more support. I am very content with the current version

DRAWING INSPIRATION from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, from which have developed the universal values of the inviolable and inalienable rights of the human person, freedom, democracy, equality and the rule of law

Listing everything that influenced us, would require us to print a history textbook into the preamble. Christianity was only a small piece of the puzzle that created europe.

I do not see it as an important piece of identification in our current times either. It was of historical significance but those times are long over. The CTE does not have to define what Europe is and what Europeans are, they have to do that themselves.

On the other hand, more support for the treaty should not be won through the preamble but through the way it shapes the union. A part of argument that has been totally neglected in debates.

Why do people complain that it is too long? If you read it, it becomes obvious that the actual "constitution" is pretty short, what makes it so long are the appendices, which contain nothing that would be of interest for the citizen but are crucial to a treaty that creates such a large organisation.

In the end, they will seperate both parts, have people vote on the "new" constitutional treaty that has been "shortened" and everyone will be happy even though nothing changed ;)

[Switek]

Christianity was only a small piece of the puzzle that created europe.

Disagree christianity glued up all pieces of very different parts together. Europe where you can trace history of architecture studing churches and cathedrals

What was common for peasant from far east part of Poland with peasant from Spain or England in for example in 12th century. Nothing except religion. Nothing but cross sign... Those nations/folks who did not accept christianity do not exist anymore

Christianity as a system of value inluenced not only politics, but economy (protestant ethics), social life, art just all aspects of many people lived before us.

The influence was weaker and weaker in evry decade... But its full heritage remains When we looking for similarities among all European nations we find those which were created by christianity

[Herrmannek]

@tsuri you look at 50years old trend of social secularism limited only to part of the Europe that seems to go away as the ideas that provoked it fade in devaluation and compare it to 2000 years old move uniting 1/3 of the peoples population(1bilion catholics-1bilon rest of the christians) that still is valid... Its funny that the biggest gatherings of people(on the ground or in front of TVsets) aren't secular(sports, politics) events but religion realted(masses lead by Pope, his death or choosing a new Pope)... I'm sure that in the 50 years children will learn about social secularism from the books and religion in the churches not the other way around....

[kosse]

Its funny that the biggest gatherings of people(on the ground or in front of TVsets) aren't secular(sports, politics) events but religion realted(masses lead by Pope, his death or choosing a new Pope)...

And we don't need to give some crazy old goat any more power or leverage so that he can try to dictate people's lives by interpreting a 2000-year old book. Gladly most people are smart enough to not take heed of his often silly remarks but there still are too many he can influence. If priests and cardinals and all kinds of preachers would stick to their churches and not try to influence politics and people maybe then I could accept the entry in constitution.

[Herrmannek]

And we don't need to give some crazy old goat any more power or leverage so that he can try to dictate people's lives by interpreting a 2000-year old book. Gladly most people are smart enough to not take heed of his often silly remarks but there still are too many he can influence. If priests and cardinals and all kinds of preachers would stick to their churches and not try to influence politics and people maybe then I could accept the entry in constitution.

Yup lets give a shiat about human rights civilised people whine rather than fight so much about... After all every person that becomes a priest or cardinal or moreover a pope cedes to be a human so so basic right as freedom of speach, taking voice in political matters and so on are not for them... go on the streets "Damn black pigs hang them on the trees"... shout with me "Damn black pigs hang them on the treeeeeeees".... If you haven't got the point, you sound as intolerant-nazi....

[kosse]

Yup lets give a shiat about human rights civilised people whine rather than fight so much about... After all every person that becomes a priest or cardinal or moreover a pope cedes to be a human so so basic right as freedom of speach, taking voice in political matters and so on are not for them... go on the streets "Damn black pigs hang them on the trees"... shout with me "Damn black pigs hang them on the treeeeeeees".... If you haven't got the point, you sound as intolerant-nazi....

I didn't say so. I said it is criminal for them to abuse their power over people like that. I actually being a student live in the same apartment with a priest (or almost, he has this winter to go before going to work in church) and we get along fine. Beer tastes good for both p-)

[Herrmannek]

how can they abuse power if they haven't got any that isn't from the kingdom of the God?

[Switek]

can try to dictate people's lives by interpreting a 2000-year old book. Gladly most people are smart enough to not take heed of his often silly remarks but there still are too many he can influence.

Even in Poland Catholic Curch is loosing its strong inflence, partly becouse of political engagement in 1990. In few decades it's gonna loose some economic priviliges, I hope.

Well, Bible for me is an old book but it's my free will wchich drives me to look at it, read and draw a conclusions... I'm too independent to let any preachers say to me what's is wrong or good. That's my responsibility

[kosse]

Well, Bible for me is an old book but it's my free will wchich drives me to look at it, read and draw a conclusions... I'm too independent to let any preachers say to me what's is wrong or good. That's my responsibility

You are right. Sadly not everyone is capable of using their own brains to see what's good and what is not. That's when they become tools.

[Switek]

You are right. Sadly not everyone is capable of using their own brains to see what's good and what is not. That's when they become tools.

Like in the army isn't it. Being private you can't think you must obey orders p-) ... and trust that they are good ones...

[kosse]

how can they abuse power if they haven't got any that isn't from the kingdom of the God?

You know that isn't true. They have a lot of financial assets and many people willing to accept almost everything they say. Priests are people like the rest of us and as such not morally above anyone else.

[tsuri]

@tsuri you look at 50years old trend of social secularism limited only to part of the Europe that seems to go away as the ideas that provoked it fade in devaluation and compare it to 2000 years old move uniting 1/3 of the peoples population

Of course but the primary source of identity has since become nationalism. It is not the 30 year war anymore. People are usually german, polish, spanish etc first and their religion comes a lot later.
Christianity is important for some europeans but not for all of them and not important enough to be referenced in a constitution.

And please.. 50 years old? The french revolution and the acceptance of reason has started the decline of religion not the cold war.
Our modern society has been greatly influenced by the age of enlightenment. We carry a christian heritage but it is rather historic.


Disagree christianity glued up all pieces of very different parts together. Europe where you can trace history of architecture studing churches and cathedrals

The hellenic traditions, roman heritage, our old religons, the age of migration and more modern developments like the invention of nationalism, french and american revolutions,the philosophy of the age of enlightenment. All of these are parts of our history and all a small part of what makes europe. We have not become what we are through christianity alone. It served a purpose in our history but thats it.
We are also talking about Spain and the Balkans that have been greatly influenced by Islam. The Destruction of eastern rome that triggered the Renaissance because scholars fled to italy, bringing back lost knowledge etc.
The formulation in the treaty covers all that without favouring either.

[kosse]

Like in the army isn't it. Being private you can't think you must obey orders p-) ... and trust that they are good ones...

Well I have to agree that there is something similar in both. In our army though you were allowed to voice your doubt over a dubious order p-)

Very good post tsuri. I agree 100%.

[Durandal]

Europe needs a common identity, and christianity has to be one of the pillars for it.

But you have sooo many other common identities...

Europe is about as Christian as California these days.

[Switek]

People are usually german, polish, spanish etc first and their religion comes a lot later

Nationalism and modern state it's 18th-19th coception. before it all peple were servants of... and had usually religion of their master


Christianity is important for some europeans but not for all of them and not important enough to be referenced in a constitution.

If you assume that real christians are minority in Europe give them right to note their heritage in the constiution


Our modern society has been greatly influenced by the age of enlightenment. We carry a christian heritage but it is rather historic.

age of enlightenment was not only opposition to middle ages but also rational development of christian values. In some countries christianity and religious life is still alive :)


We are also talking about Spain and the Balkans that have been greatly influenced by Islam.

Polish national noblemen's dresses and swords also were influenced by Islam but we all protected ourselves . So we can see where are European borders and have problem with accepting Turkey as European country

[Herrmannek]

People are usually german, polish, spanish etc first and their religion comes a lot later

Topic went into history lesson so be it:

God, Honour, and then Fatherland - this is official Polish nation motto(put on our arms, banners and other things and places) for almost 500years now... I bet if Germans had this in mind Hitler would never go into power... Yes I'm Catholic first over being Pole, but hopefully my fellow Poles will continue to follow this motto so I'll never have to choose one over another....

[Lazy Lob]

God, Honour, and then Fatherland - this is official Polish nation motto(put on our arms, banners and other things and places) for almost 500years now... I bet if Germans had this in mind Hitler would never go into power.......

I don't quite follow the logic here Herrm.

[Herrmannek]

I don't quite follow the logic here Herrm.
Demanding from Pole doing sinfull or unhonourable things for a Country or any other matter of less importance violates our "motto" and thus is considered offensive... If Germans would know priority of the matters as the Poles do they would never subordinate honour and morals to criminal ideas of uberreich.... Same goes for commies, french revolutionists and most other revolution freaks....

[Drako]

I guess he wanted to say that if Germans before the WWII had put God and honour before their fatherland Hitler wouldn't have come to power. But again, it is waaaay OT :P

[G-2]

To put a denominational religious slant in it would be a bad idea. Church and state do not belong together as the capacity for coruption is too great. The country I live in (Ireland) suffered at the hands of the R.C. faiths corrupt leaders here in Ireland from the foundation of the state right up to the early 90's. trust me when I say (and I have studied the history of religious control over nations fairly well) that church and state must remain seperate.

[Herrmannek]

I guess he wanted to say that if Germans before the WWII had put God and honour before their fatherland Hitler wouldn't have come to power. But again, it is waaaay OT :P
Don't mind OT, we reached to the point where supporters and opponets of the reference to Christianity in european constitution practicaly agreed to dissagree, democratic voting in next few years will solve this dispute...

[Herrmannek]

To put a denominational religious slant in it would be a bad idea. Church and state do not belong together as the capacity for coruption is too great. The country I live in (Ireland) suffered at the hands of the R.C. faiths corrupt leaders here in Ireland from the foundation of the state right up to the early 90's. trust me when I say (and I have studied the history of religious control over nations fairly well) that church and state must remain seperate.

Why are you blaming RCC for flaws in democratic choice of your people? Maybe I'm wrong but even in uber-catholic Poland for the ages past and now there was clear practical and later legal separation of the country from the church, esspecialy when it went for the public money and busness matters... so I hardly can believe RCC had any direct influence* on governing XX century Irleand at all :)
*people voting for parties/people that declare and/or seems to be related to RCC in any way isn't direct influence :)

[G-2]

The people (known as the clergy) were trusted members of the community who (because they were men of god) would do no wrong. That attitude existed and all would have been ok (mostly) were not for the continous abuse by members of said clergy of that position of power.

so I hardly can believe RCC had any direct influence* on governing XX century Irleand at all
Oh and need I mention the "mother and child scheme" incident. During the early 1950's the minister of health (under a diferent title at the time) proposed to introduce a new social system regarding women and children which was nothing short of revolutionary for the time. But because the R.C.C. local clergy disagreed with it on religious grounds they demanded that it be dropped and the evil doer (Noel Browne) responsible for its creation be dropped from the cabinet.
The then Taoiseach Costello not wishing to go against the church did as he was ordered. In short they were controlling the destiny of a nation which they had no right to do. As a nation we only managed to wake up a shrug of the sheckles of religious control relatively recently.
A warning, take care, I know my nations history very very well.

[Drako]

I'd like to remind you that the discussion isn't about RCC but about Christianity.

[G-2]

The R.C.C. is one of the main christian religions (and biggest) and is therefore available to be used as an example of why one should not mix church and state.

[Switek]

The R.C.C. is one of the main christian religions (and biggest) and is therefore available to be used as an example of why one should not mix church and state.

well Europe gas three main christian religions: RC, Protestant (Lutheran & Kalvin) and Orthodox...

When we discuss about preambule we do not discuss about RCC in it but common values

[G-2]

I am using the R.C.C. as an example why church and state do not go together. I never suggested they were the only christian religion.

When we discuss about preambule we do not discuss about RCC in it but common values
Whos values, different people have different values. The problem with church and state being mixed is that religions have this overwhelming desire to impose their moral values on everyone. And remember different people have different values. The only religious reference within it should be be that all have the right to worship freely whatever religion they so desire and not go paying special attention to one group of religions.

[Quietscheentchen]

To put a denominational religious slant in it would be a bad idea. Church and state do not belong together as the capacity for coruption is too great. The country I live in (Ireland) suffered at the hands of the R.C. faiths corrupt leaders here in Ireland from the foundation of the state right up to the early 90's. trust me when I say (and I have studied the history of religious control over nations fairly well) that church and state must remain seperate.

i support your opinion. i don't get why some other christians still have problems with secularism. it is in our own interest.

[Herrmannek]

i support your opinion. i don't get why some other christians still have problems with secularism. it is in our own interest.

What you propose if far beyond secularism... its removing religion from public sphere at all.. What do you want?
Priests to stop telling us what Jesus would consider good or bad?
People stop wearing crosses and not saying in what they strongly believe because one or few decided their beliefs are inapropierate?
Mute them from voicing opinions/casting votes what deserves punsihment and whats not, were to spend public money and where not?

You can't pull secularism any further without violating human rights so stop proposing that... In no Western culture country(except Vatican) Church have any more impact on the country than any other organisation of the simmiliar amount/dedication of members. I'm sure you don't like so many people stays in church but thats rather fault of your incompetence in persuading them Church have no use than fault of Church. Get over with it and stop whinng people don't want to follow your red/rainbow or whatever color revolution you want....

As for every man having different set of values... Try to run a car with two separate sets of driving wheels.... If you want a stable peacfull society people have to have common set of values that guaranties peacfull coexisting... So instead praisng the variety we maybe should start praise our commons, be it common roots, common values, common aims, and common way of acting if you will still press on pusching your secularism to the level of violating personal human rights, freedom to gather, freedom of speech, fredom of beliefes you will fail like a raft tied with toilet paper.... Secularism understood as freedom from religion instead of freedom of religion beliefs will get you nowhere but next season of Nuremberg Trials

[Quietscheentchen]

no, imho it's still secularism. it does not mean that religion is removed from the public, it has still enough influence. here in germany we have religious classes, and although a lot of people here are not very religious any more, different branches of the churches have still a strong influence at the society, most people just don't recognize it. a constitution without a christian reference would not change this, it would all be o.k. .

[tsuri]

Demanding from Pole doing sinfull or unhonourable things for a Country or any other matter of less importance violates our "motto" and thus is considered offensive... If Germans would know priority of the matters as the Poles do they would never subordinate honour and morals to criminal ideas of uberreich.... Same goes for commies, french revolutionists and most other revolution freaks....

It was not percieved as criminal. We had a mission from god to kill all the jews and god sent us Adolf Hitler to do that. He often stressed that he was an agent of god. How exactly would religious belief have changed that? Not to mention the many catholic priests cooperating with our war machine...

And you call the french revolutionists freaks? Are you mad? They were rebelling against an injust regime based on an imaginary friend in the sky that tried to keep society under the blind sheeple principle of religion and starved citizens of bread and liberties. This very event is directly responsible for our whole concept of the state and the citizen´s role in it and helped spread these ideals on the european continent. (The American Revolution has to be counted in as well as a very european event)


But that is on a different sheet of paper.

If someone from Poland gets asked where he belongs, he will certainly say poland first. The nationality is the primary piece of identification. Muslims, atheists and christians all unite under their nationality.

This is not 16xx where we are either Protestants or Catholics and nothing else.


If you assume that real christians are minority in Europe give them right to note their heritage in the constiution

What is a real christian? I simply say that European Christians are not the Taliban. They don´t want a theocracy. In Europe Religion is a private matter. Referencing a specific religion in the constitution because it shaped the continent while leaving out other major movements (due to a natural lack of space) is not neccesary. If we say that we europeans share a common culture and past, then everyone knows what that means and we can all be content.


age of enlightenment was not only opposition to middle ages but also rational development of christian values. In some countries christianity and religious life is still alive

Before reason became predominant, science worked like this.
It was a cold winter in paris. The royal academy wanted to find out at which temperatures oil freezes. What did they do? They looked it up in the books of the "holy aristotle" instead of trying it themselves.

The enlightenment age was in many ways the most important event that shapes european culture to this very day.

Modern Philosophy, Scientific Methods, the rule of law (Code Civil), individual rights, the concept of equality have a lot of weight..

It is probably percieved differently in Poland because you were not directly affected by it.

[Switek]

Not to mention the many catholic priests cooperating with our war machine...

Real oppositionists in Third Reich, IMHO, were closely tied witch catholicism or protestantism...


And you call the french revolutionists freaks? Are you mad? They were rebelling against an injust regime based on an imaginary friend in the sky that tried to keep society under the blind sheeple principle of religion and starved citizens of bread and liberties. This very event is directly responsible for our whole concept of the state and the citizen´s role in it and helped spread these ideals on the european continent. (The American Revolution has to be counted in as well as a very european event)

French revolution was a basis to create modern state based on rationalism, That's fact.but this just more than 200 years of Frecnch history. Compare this period with about 1.400 of total French state history. American revolution did not denied religion as a basis of comon values. Americans (not all of course) still are very religious nation...


If someone from Poland gets asked where he belongs, he will certainly say poland first. The nationality is the primary piece of identification. Muslims, atheists and christians all unite under their nationality.

Nationalism is based on another concept (which no exclude religion). Most Poles are catholichs but there are also orthodox and protestans


This is not 16xx where we are either Protestants or Catholics and nothing else.

but for more time existence of Ehrope it was... 1.000 to 1.400 years it depends how we count.



Religion is a private matter. Referencing a specific religion in the constitution because it shaped the continent while leaving out other major movements (due to a natural lack of space) is not neccesary. If we say that we europeans share a common culture and past, then everyone knows what that means and we can all be content.

Religion, Thanks God, is private matter but influences daily choices in private and public life. You can not denay it.


The enlightenment age was in many ways the most important event that shapes european culture to this very day

You can't know what was important event in European culture. Before this period we were all christians and belonged to the same culture which shaped our continent by about 1.000 years


Modern Philosophy, Scientific Methods, the rule of law (Code Civil), individual rights, the concept of equality have a lot of weight...

modern christianism is also to add something to this values, not as opposition but development


It is probably percieved differently in Poland because you were not directly affected by it.

Bad argument. I find it light offensive. It means that you hardly know Polish history. You should know Stansław Staszic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Staszic). Check it.

[CSAR]

I've always wondered why would we need to base our laws on religion. Sure Christianity had big impact on European culture, but to be honest I'm doubtful that it would be critical for our values today. All the strongest values we nowadays have like democracy, human rights etc. were a joke during the era Christianity was on its strongest. They actually started to mean something in the 19th and 20th centuries, at the same time that people started to be less and less religious. It was philosophers and scientists that created the Europe we are living in today, and Christianity played a small role at best in this.

[kosse]

What you propose if far beyond secularism... its removing religion from public sphere at all.. What do you want?
Priests to stop telling us what Jesus would consider good or bad?
People stop wearing crosses and not saying in what they strongly believe because one or few decided their beliefs are inapropierate?

You do have some of the strangest rambligs I have seen for a while. How would the church be "removed from public sphere" if it won't get the entry in the constitution? I don't see how it would affect it. Well maybe it would lead to the church losing it's tax priviledges in many countries in the future. That would sink it's financial assets but maybe then they could go back to what they were meant to do: commit to the religion instead of making business. To priests coming to tell us what Jesus thinks I believe most people want to go to church to hear it. I don't see churches going anywhere.


Mute them from voicing opinions/casting votes what deserves punsihment and whats not, were to spend public money and where not?

Definitely. It's none of church's or any other religion's business.


You can't pull secularism any further without violating human rights so stop proposing that... In no Western culture country(except Vatican) Church have any more impact on the country than any other organisation of the simmiliar amount/dedication of members. I'm sure you don't like so many people stays in church but thats rather fault of your incompetence in persuading them Church have no use than fault of Church. Get over with it and stop whinng people don't want to follow your red/rainbow or whatever color revolution you want....
Would you care to explain how the human rights be violated? I also doubt that anyone gives a rat's ass about how many people are in the church. I belong to state church (Lutheran) and so do the most of my countymen. I don't see how it would harm my commitment to my religion even if the church lost it's priviledges in society. It would then be just like any other religion.


As for every man having different set of values... Try to run a car with two separate sets of driving wheels.... If you want a stable peacfull society people have to have common set of values that guaranties peacfull coexisting... So instead praisng the variety we maybe should start praise our commons, be it common roots, common values, common aims, and common way of acting if you will still press on pusching your secularism to the level of violating personal human rights, freedom to gather, freedom of speech, fredom of beliefes you will fail like a raft tied with toilet paper.... Secularism understood as freedom from religion instead of freedom of religion beliefs will get you nowhere but next season of Nuremberg Trials
Yeah sure. People will lose their moral principles just like that when they stop going to church. I suggest you start using your own brains for a change. You will end up a sad religious extremist in some closed sect that barricades from the world when you get older. You can still fix it and find out that non religious people are humans too.

[Herrmannek]

You do have some of the strangest rambligs I have seen for a while. How would the church be "removed from public sphere" if it won't get the entry in the constitution? I don't see how it would affect it. Well maybe it would lead to the church losing it's tax priviledges in many countries in the future. That would sink it's financial assets but maybe then they could go back to what they were meant to do: commit to the religion instead of making business. To priests coming to tell us what Jesus thinks I believe most people want to go to church to hear it. I don't see churches going anywhere.


Definitely. It's none of church's or any other religion's business.


Would you care to explain how the human rights be violated? I also doubt that anyone gives a rat's ass about how many people are in the church. I belong to state church (Lutheran) and so do the most of my countymen. I don't see how it would harm my commitment to my religion even if the church lost it's priviledges in society. It would then be just like any other religion.


Yeah sure. People will lose their moral principles just like that when they stop going to church. I suggest you start using your own brains for a change. You will end up a sad religious extremist in some closed sect that barricades from the world when you get older. You can still fix it and find out that non religious people are humans too.

Wow, you condradict yourself in one post, On first part you say you don't see nor support removing church from public life, and in another you say some matters aren't church buisnes to even voice opinion about... To your knowledge: Church aren't aliens from the mars or regime from the north korea, Church are people, if you deny me a catholic or priest to voice his opinion where his/my taxes goes or what I want to vote in democratic elections, or deny me to voice on some matters like abortion, euthanasia or whatever you violate my rights you would probably kill if someone would deny you sport them... If you don't consider Jesus God consider him and his predestors and followers as philosopher school called Christians. You don't see a problem with Chomsky telling you where money should go and where should not, but you deny that to old school philosophers?

[kosse]

Wow, you condradict yourself in one post, On first part you say you don't see nor support removing church from public life, and in another you say some matters aren't church buisnes to even voice opinion about...

No I didn't. There's no need to remove church from anything - just put it in it's place working in the field of religion, not politics. I don't see how it is so hard for you to grasp it. I might have a different opinion if catholic church didn't have so backward views about life in general. Even this wouldn't bother me but I always start seeing red when they condemn people because of their lifestyles or charasteristics. Lutheran church for example doesn't try to enforce it's views and it's views are anyway much more moderate. To me it often looks like catholic priests are trying to play god by dictating people's lives. Excommunications and other stuff related to breaking the rules it's just so nazi in my eyes that I don't want to have anything to do with a religion like that. Least of all in constitution.



To your knowledge: Church aren't aliens from the mars or regime from the north korea, Church are people, if you deny me a catholic or priest to voice his opinion where his/my taxes goes or what I want to vote in democratic elections, or deny me to voice on some matters like abortion, euthanasia or whatever you violate my rights you would probably kill if someone would deny you sport them...
I've never said anything about limiting freedom of expression.


If you don't consider Jesus God consider him and his predestors and followers as philosopher school called Christians. You don't see a problem with Chomsky telling you where money should go and where should not, but you deny that to old school philosophers?

http://www.eiaonline.com/uploaded_images/rabbit_pancake-737190.jpg

[G-2]

I can see this going very swiftly into the realm of a flame war but how an ever.

What you propose if far beyond secularism... its removing religion from public sphere at all.. What do you want?
Priests to stop telling us what Jesus would consider good or bad?
People stop wearing crosses and not saying in what they strongly believe because one or few decided their beliefs are inappropriate?
Mute them from voicing opinions/casting votes what deserves punishment and whets not, were to spend public money and where not? That was never suggested by me or Quietscheentchen as well you know. A I very very clearly said, the only thing that should be enshrined as regards to religion is all peoples freedom to worship whatever god/gods they wish. none have suggested the any religion should be flagged as inappropriate. But you are suggesting that one set should be held aloft above everyone else's and given a special place. You are either blind to reality or just ignoring it.

You can't pull secularism any further without violating human rights so stop proposing that... Secularism is not about forbidding religious worship it is about insuring that one set of beliefs is not foisted upon everyone.

. In no Western culture country(except Vatican) Church have any more impact on the country than any other organisation of the similar amount/dedication of members. Ireland. I have noted that you have avoided responding to my post which is a clear and very pertinent indictment of church and state being mixed.

Try to run a car with two separate sets of driving wheels.... If you want a stable peaceful society people have to have common set of values that guaranties peaceful coexisting. Quite right but you are suggesting that those E.U. values be Christian based. So because some people like that we'll just tell all those heathen non Christians to get in line. And you are going to try and say that isn't a violation of human rights.............. well enjoy that.

pusching your secularism to the level of violating personal human rights, freedom to gather, freedom of speech, fredom of beliefes you will fail like a raft tied with toilet paper.... Secularism understood as freedom from religion instead of freedom of religion beliefs will get you nowhere but next season of Nuremberg Trials Not everyone is religious and many are of a myriad of different faiths. Secularism as you have labelled it is not about forbidding religion, it is about keeping one set of beliefs (any) from being a controlling factor in state affairs. A secular state is one free from religious control and oppression but not free (in other words banned) of religion.

[G-2]

Enshrine the right to believe in whatever you wish but not any specific slant.
I pose the question, How many countless millions have died and been butchered throughout history in the name of religion and one god or another.
Religions have no business controling the fate of a nation in any way whatsoever. read my post from page 7

Oh and need I mention the "mother and child scheme" incident. During the early 1950's the minister of health (under a diferent title at the time) proposed to introduce a new social system regarding women and children which was nothing short of revolutionary for the time. But because the R.C.C. local clergy disagreed with it on religious grounds they demanded that it be dropped and the evil doer (Noel Browne) responsible for its creation be dropped from the cabinet.
The then Taoiseach Costello not wishing to go against the church did as he was ordered. In short they were controlling the destiny of a nation which they had no right to do. As a nation we only managed to wake up a shrug of the sheckles of religious control relatively recently.
A warning, take care, I know my nations history very very well. This is one example among a huge and unnumbered many as to why church (any church) and state must be kept firmly apart.

[Drako]

You're all discussing the different matter than this case is about. For me if ancient Greek and Roman culture aren't mentioned in the constitution, the Christianity shouldn't be mentioned neither. If they are mentioned, so should happen with Christianity. It's just the matter of the influence on our history and our present culture. Roman culture just like Greek one were based on beliefs of the ancient people so it doesn't differ from Christianity at all - all of them gave us laws, art, architecture, literacy, science and all of them shaped the current Europe. You people are reaching far beyond the subject by arguing about the place of religion in politics.

[annihilation]

You're all discussing the different matter than this case is about. For me if ancient Greek and Roman culture aren't mentioned in the constitution, the Christianity shouldn't be mentioned neither. If they are mentioned, so should happen with Christianity. It's just the matter of the influence on our history and our present culture. Roman culture just like Greek one were based on beliefs of the ancient people so it doesn't differ from Christianity at all - all of them gave us laws, art, architecture, literacy, science and all of them shaped the current Europe. You people are reaching far beyond the subject by arguing about the place of religion in politics.

I like what you said. Its best to leave any religion out of the constitution and the politics. Because nothing but trouble can come about if we don't.

[G-2]

Oh and to hark back through the mists of time. I have an example of the problems of mixing church and state from a long time ago (but not in a galaxy far far away).
Think Rome. The split in the Roman empire (thus greatly weakening it as a whole) came about due to a disagreement between the Emperor constantine and the Pope. The emperor believed Rome was too weak a location for the capital and so he decided to move it to Constantinople (modern day Istanbul). The Pope disagreed saying Rome was a holy city and must remain the capital. The result was the Emperor left taking the Roman capital with him and the Pope remained. The end result, the formation of two Roman empires. Eastern empire under the true Roman emperors and Western empire under the Pope and the holy Roman Emperor.
Now so as not to seem like an RCC basher another example also from the Roman era is the Romans earlier set of beliefs. Before battle a priest (of the gods) would sacrifice an animal an examine the entrails. If the portents he percieved were bad then the Romans were going to lose. The effect was to send morale straight to the dumps in which case the Romans probably would lose (lack of will as they believed the result was already decided). This also shows what can happen when church and state get mixed. Entire campaigns could fail just because some entrails looked nasty.

[G-2]

You're all discussing the different matter than this case is about. For me if ancient Greek and Roman culture aren't mentioned in the constitution, the Christianity shouldn't be mentioned neither. If they are mentioned, so should happen with Christianity. It's just the matter of the influence on our history and our present culture. Roman culture just like Greek one were based on beliefs of the ancient people so it doesn't differ from Christianity at all - all of them gave us laws, art, architecture, literacy, science and all of them shaped the current Europe. You people are reaching far beyond the subject by arguing about the place of religion in politics.
I see where you're coming from however lest we forget the rather sizeable influence that Islam (the Moors) had upon Spain. The truth is if one is mentioned the all have to be mentioned and what on earth is the point when you can say the same thing by saying "all have the freedom to worship freely whatever god/gods they may wish".

[Drako]

It's not about beliefs, it's about admitting that Christianity had its part in shaping the present Europe. But. Current version of preambule says that EU draws its


inspiration from the cultural, religious and humanist inheritance of Europe, from which have developed the universal values of the inviolable and inalienable rights of the human person, democracy, equality, freedom and the rule of law

and it is good enough for me.