The absence of entrenching tools with current armies.

[JKP]

To set the tone of my argument, here's a quick excerpt:


By V. Suvorov '87

"Spades and Men"

"Every infantryman in the Soviet Army carries with him a small spade. When he is given the order to halt he immediately lies flat and starts to dig a hole in the ground beside him. In three minutes he will have dug a little trench 15 centimetres deep, in which he can lie stretched out flat, so that bullets can whistle harmlessly over his head. The earth he has dug out forms a breastwork in front and at the side to act as an additional cover. If a tank drives over such a trench the soldier has a 50% chance that it will do him no harm. At any moment the soldier may be ordered to advance again and, shouting at the top of his voice, will rush ahead. If he is not ordered to advance, he digs in deeper and deeper. At first his trench can be used for firing in the lying position. Later it becomes a trench from which to fire in the kneeling position, and later still, when it is 110 centimetres deep,it can be used for firing in the standing position. The earth that has been dug out protects the soldier from bullets and fragments. He makes an embrasure in this breastwork into which he positions the barrel of his gun."

"In the absence of any further commands he continues to work on his trench. He camouflages it. He starts to dig a trench to connect with his comrades to the left of him. He always digs from right to left, and in a few hours the unit has a trench linking all the riflemen's trenches together. The unit's trenches are linked with the trenches of other units. Dug-outs are built and communication trenches are added at the rear. The trenches are made deeper, covered over, camouflaged and reinforced. Then, suddenly, the order to advance comes again. The soldier emerges, shouting and swearing as loudly as he can."

"The infantryman uses the same spade for digging graves for his fallen comrades. If he doesn't have an axe to hand he uses the spade to chop his bread when it is frozen hard as granite. He uses it as a paddle as he floats across wide rivers on a telegraph pole under enemy fire. And when he gets the order to halt, he again builds his impregnable fortress around himself."

"He knows how to dig the earth efficiently. He builds his fortress exactly as it should be. The spade is not just an instrument for digging: it can also be used for measuring. It is 50 centimetres long. Two spade lengths are a metre. The blade is 15 centimetres wide and 18 centimetres long. With these measurements in mind the soldier can measure anything he wishes."

"The infantry spade does not have a folding handle, and this is a very important feature. It has to be a single monolithic object. All three of its edges are as sharp as a knife. It is painted with a green matt paint so as not to reflect the strong sunlight."

"The spade is not only a tool and a measure. It is also a guarantee of the steadfastness of the infantry in the most difficult situations. If the infantry have a few hours to dig themselves in, it could take years to get them out of their holes and trenches, whatever modern weapons are used against them."

So with that in mind, how come we're not seeing the familiar and once ubiquitous yellow handle sticking out of rucksacks and webgear anymore?
With current vest based load bearing equipment, it could simply be mounted on the back or elsewhere.

Tactically, it still has a role in maneuver warfare, as any combat unit will never be in motion 100% of the time.

In CQB it can prove a highly lethal weapon provided the operator knows how to use it in such a way (see Spetsnatz,Systema,VDV).

Additionally, it decreases reliance on engineeering units if only a trench or berm needs to be contructed, especially if they need be built right away.

So yeah, thoughts on why they're not seen that often anymore?

[kosse]

So with that in mind, how come we're not seeing the familiar and once ubiquitous yellow handle sticking out of rucksacks and webgear anymore?
With current vest based load bearing equipment, it could simply be mounted on the back or elsewhere.

I don't know about other armies but we have spades. It just folds so neatly and goes into the soldier's gear belt that it cannot be seen.

http://www.vapaa-aika.com/images/Spesiaalit/40006.jpg



In CQB it can prove a highly lethal weapon provided the operator knows how to use it in such a way (see Spetsnatz,Systema,VDV).
I'd rather use my RK's butt or a bayonet. The spade isn't very heavy if I recall right.


Additionally, it decreases reliance on engineeering units if only a trench or berm needs to be contructed, especially if they need be built right away.
Well you would use that only if you were in a terrible hurry. I suppose every unit should have lots of full-size trench digging shovels for that. At least my platoon had about 10. Well it was a mortar platoon so we did a lot of digging anyway p-)

[USMC Tanker]

Maybe the reason you probably don't see the "yellow handle" sticking out of rucks anymore because E-tools fold up...

The E-tool is still required on the gear list, and it goes everywhere we go. I keep it in my pack, not strapped to my back during urban and vehicle mounted operations! Don't mean to be a smart ass, but that doesn't make much sense to me.

Also, that's a document from 1987! The U.S. military operates using maneuver warfare...moving hard and fast with superior firepower. Sleeping holes and overnight fighting holes are one thing, but making yourself an "impregnable fortress" (as Comrade Suvorov described) is another. Warfare moves too quickly now.

By the way, that document was cheesy as hell!

[AK74]

dude... the spade was hitlers' knife if the MG42 was hitler's chainsaw in terms of kills bagged...

it killed / injured personel only losing out to the MG 42 in terms of frags.

btw kosse , nice JA2 gus avatar ^^!!

[JKP]

Maybe the reason you probably don't see the "yellow handle" sticking out of rucks anymore because E-tools fold up...

Many armies continue to use non folding handles. Russia being a major one.


The E-tool is still required on the gear list, and it goes everywhere we go. I keep it in my pack, not strapped to my back during urban and vehicle mounted operations! Don't mean to be a smart ass, but that doesn't make much sense to me.

Well see, the entire point is to take it with you into combat. It's of little use sitting in a rucksack.


Also, that's a document from 1987!

Did you know that modern armies have been using maneuver warfare since '39?


The U.S. military operates using maneuver warfare...moving hard and fast with superior firepower. Sleeping holes and overnight fighting holes are one thing, but making yourself an "impregnable fortress" (as Comrade Suvorov described) is another. Warfare moves too quickly now.

I think the Article and I addressed that already.

"In the absence of any further commands he continues to work on his trench."

Logically, it would follow that if a soldier was ordered to move on he would abandon his trench.

And even while strategically an army may be maneuver based and on the attack, tactically the situation may defensive and presents the opportunity for entrenchment. With a spade you have that option.


By the way, that document was cheesy as hell!

That's subjective.

[St Fubar]

I'd rather use my RK's butt or a bayonet. The spade isn't very heavy if I recall right.
It's not heavy, but it's still heavy enough to crack somebody's skull open or smash somebody's face in. I'd rate it higher that the rifle butt, but lower than a fastened bayonet.

[JKP]

dude... the spade was hitlers' knife if the MG42 was hitler's chainsaw in terms of kills bagged...

it killed / injured personel only losing out to the MG 42 in terms of frags.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbXeEPacF9E

[Sabre]

1) ETH's are still on the kit list
2) ETH's are crap and break. If you intend to dig a hole, take a full spade in your bergan.
3) 3-5 round burst from a GPMG beats a bloke with a spade any day

I thank you.

[Katana-sr]

Seriously, which major army doesn't have a standard issue entrenching tool? The only change I noticed is that it is not carried in second line anymore, mostly third line. In basic training I carried my e-tool in second line, after that it was third line gear.

[St Fubar]

3) 3-5 round burst from a GPMG beats a bloke with a spade any day
No it doesn't. By the time you have that GPMG pointed in the right direction, that bloke will already be rogering you with that spade.

[Beer Monster]

@JKP

I'm still not sure how you would purpose carrying said piece of gardening equipment?

British Army does have a folding spade pouch that goes on you webbing, however, it invariably lives in the bottom of your bergen or better still you carry a big spade which is a hell of a lot easier to dig with. Chances are if you have to dig a shell scrape or trench (which hopefully the engineers will do for you !) you will be with your bergen (either on your back on in a vehicle).

With helmets and body armour I also suspect that it wouldn't be as effective these days as it was in WW2 ...... fewer soft squidgy bits on display to take swing at. I also wouldn't exactly call it a "quick draw". In modern cases the spade is probably of the fold away variety so by the time you have assembled it you'd be dead.

With the shorter "fixed shaft" variety (sounds like a line from a **** film) it would be an absolute pain to carry (webbing full of bombs, bullets and water and rucksack on back?) and by the time you've unfastened it from yourself (thinking of 58 pattern webbing) you'd probably be dead ...... again.

If it really came to the crunch I suspect the weapon of choice order would be: rifle, pistol, bayonet/knife, a very steely glare followed by rolling around on the ground biting, gouging, strangling and possible a bit of helmet bashing followed by one of you muckers putting a couple of rounds into the opposition.

Just my 2 pence worth. Right I’m off to the pub errrr gym.

[JKP]

3-5 round burst from a GPMG beats a bloke with a spade any day

Explain to me how this works.

[Sabre]

No it doesn't. By the time you have that GPMG pointed in the right direction, that bloke will already be rogering you with that spade.

So I carry my ETH in my webbing as you suggested (which I don't), and for some reason I come across a radgie trying to do my nut in at close range.

Instead of taking a step back and giving him a quick splurge of 7.62 joy, I'm supposed to put down my gimpy, take my ETH out of the belt pouch (undoing the plastic clip, lifting the webbing strap and then opening both poppers on the plastic case inside), unfold it, tighten up the locking collar, take hold of it and bash him one on the swede?


Explain to me how this works.

Well, each 7.62mm round penetrates the equipment and soft armour on the enemy, entering his body. The round has a temorary and permanent cavitating effect which shreds/crushes and tears vital structures within him. The combined effect of 3-5 of these rounds will be most unpleasant and far worse than a bash on the lid.

[Hydro]

I don't know ANYONE that carrys their ETH on their webbing anymore. My ETH pouch is used to carry a water bottle in, and thats only until I get another utility pouch. If I'm getting up close and nasty I'll have a bayonet fixed and ready to stick in someones chest when they raise their Alan Titchmarsh Special to give me a **** on the noggin.


I can just hear the comedy *PANG* echoing around the battlefield now...

[JKP]

Well, each 7.62mm round penetrates the equipment and soft armour on the enemy, entering his body. The round has a temorary and permanent cavitating effect which shreds/crushes and tears vital structures within him. The combined effect of 3-5 of these rounds will be most unpleasant and far worse than a bash on the lid.


I think you're over-analyzing your scenario. As far as I know, there has never in history been a spade charge against an MG position.

I dunno, maybe if you set up position on a field and wait a bit, it'll happen-maybe.

Like ak74 said, spades have racked up quite a bit of kills over the years.

But I'm sure the CQB kills with an m-240 are higher though ;)

[81gunner]

As far as I know most grunts have an e-tool as part of their equipment. They may not always have it on their person but they do have it. As far as using it as a weapon, sure but you could use a big rock too, or anything for that matter. Well maybe not a snickers bar.

[Erik2a4]

dude... the spade was hitlers' knife if the MG42 was hitler's chainsaw in terms of kills bagged...

it killed / injured personel only losing out to the MG 42 in terms of frags.

btw kosse , nice JA2 gus avatar ^^!!

The bull**** is getting deep in here...

[kosse]

It's not heavy, but it's still heavy enough to crack somebody's skull open or smash somebody's face in. I'd rate it higher that the rifle butt, but lower than a fastened bayonet.

Like many people have said you are not likely to have it at hand since it isn't actually your primary combat tool. And I'd still prefer almost anything over the spade as a club because it really is so lightweight that you need to hit enemy straight in the face to take him out.

[JKP]

As far as I know most grunts have an e-tool as part of their equipment. They may not always have it on their person but they do have it. As far as using it as a weapon, sure but you could use a big rock too, or anything for that matter. Well maybe not a snickers bar.

Yeah, but's it's more efficient than a rock or something. Hand to hand it's more lethal than bayonet. Even as early as world war one they figured that out(see all quiet on the western front).

But to make it clear, I'm more interested in the entrenchment ability it provides for the infantryman. Combat ability is secondary in that role.

However in the case of Spetsnaz, combat ability is first and foremost.


Continued excerpt


In this book we are not talking about the infantry but about soldiers belonging to other units, known as spetsnaz. These soldiers never dig trenches; in fact they never take up defensive positions. They either launch a sudden attack on an enemy or, if they meet with resistance or superior enemy forces, they disappear as quickly as they appeared and attack the enemy again where and when the enemy least expects them to appear.

Surprisingly, the spetsnaz soldiers also carry the little infantry spades. Why do they need them? It is practically impossible to describe in words how they use their spades. You really have to see what they do with them. In the hands of a spetsnaz soldier the spade is a terrible noiseless weapon and every member of spetsnaz gets much more training in the use of his spade then does the infantryman. The first thing he has to teach himself is precision: tosplit little slivers of wood with the edge of the spade or to cut off the neck of a bottle so that the bottle remains whole. He has to learn to love his spade and have faith in its accuracy. To do that he places his hand on the stump of a tree with the fingers spread out and takes a big swing at the stump with his right hand using the edge of the spade. Once he has learnt to use the spade well and truly as an axe he is taught more complicated things. The little spade can be used in hand-to-hand fighting against blows from a bayonet, a knife, a fist or another spade. A soldier armed with nothing but the spade is shut in a room without windows along with a mad dog, which makes for an interesting contest. Finally a soldier is taught to throw the spade as accurately as he would use a sword or a battle-axe. It is a wonderful weapon for throwing, a single, well balanced object, whose 32-centimetre handle acts as a lever for throwing. As it spins in flight it gives the spade accuracy and thrust. It becomes a terrifying weapon. If it lands in a tree it is not so easy to pull out again. Far more serious is it if it hits someone's skull, although spetsnaz members usually do not aim at the enemy's face but at his back. He will rarely see the blade coming, before it lands in the back of his neck or between his shoulder blades, smashing the bones.

The spetsnaz soldier loves his spade. He has more faith in its reliability and accuracy than he has in his Kalashnikov automatic. An interesting psychological detail has been observed in the kind of hand-to-hand confrontations which are the stock in trade of spetsnaz. If a soldier fires at an enemy armed with an automatic, the enemy also shoots at him. But if he doesn't fire at the enemy but throws a spade at him instead, the enemy simply drops his gun and jumps to one side.

This is a book about people who throw spades and about soldiers who work with spades more surely and more accurately than they do with spoons at a table. They do, of course, have other weapons besides their spades.

[Erik2a4]

Yeah, but's it's more efficient than a rock or something. Hand to hand it's more lethal than bayonet. Even as early as world war one they figured that out(see all quiet on the western front.

But to make it clear, I'm more interested in the entrenchment ability it provides for the infantryman. Combat ability is secondary in that role.

However in the case of special forces, combat ability is first and foremost.


Continued excerpt

Well, bud, you go move out and draw fire with your special forces combat spade. Good luck! rofl

[JKP]

Well, bud, you go move out and draw fire with your special forces combat spade. Good luck! rofl

No offense, but the Spetsnatz know a thing or two more about combat than you do.

[81gunner]

Haji can use a rock for anything.

[kosse]

Continued excerpt

That's craziest bull**** I've read for a while. roflrofl

[81gunner]

And as for digging a fighting position i'll just go grab a real shovel off the hummer.

[Hydro]

Maybe they should be renamed Spadesnaz?

[JKP]

That's craziest bull**** I've read for a while. roflrofl

Thank you for your damning critique.

I suppose people just get irrational when they don't like what they read.

[Erik2a4]

No offense, but the Spetsnatz know a thing or two more about combat than you do.

:lol:

I'll make sure to keep that in mind.

[kosse]

Thank you for your damning critique.

I suppose people just get irrational when they don't like what they read.

Yeah sure you can hit a moving man with a spade much easier than a bullet from AK. Are Spetzaz spades heat-seeking or laserguided? How long range do they have? Do you know if they are going to introduce full auto spade launchers? But don't waste your time: We Finns have much more advanced weapons which can be used as knives, throwing weapons, digging or prying our enemies' eyes out. They are smaller, more silent and as deadly as spades. A perfect weapons if I may brag a bit. What is more our soldiers train with these deadly pieces of modern ninja warfare every day. So they are maybe little more experienced with them than some Speznaz with their crappy spades. Here is a picture but don't tell anyone that I showed it to you:

http://www.maanpuolustusyhtio.fi/pictures/Luha.jpg

[Sabre]

I think you're over-analyzing your scenario. As far as I know, there has never in history been a spade charge against an MG position.

I dunno, maybe if you set up position on a field and wait a bit, it'll happen-maybe.

Like ak74 said, spades have racked up quite a bit of kills over the years.

But I'm sure the CQB kills with an m-240 are higher though ;)

I AM an MG position mate! Charge me with a spade and find out what happens! :lol:

I had thought you were suggesting a last resort in room-to-room fighting, but if you're talking about in open fields then you're even more daft than I thought!

Really mate, this spetsnaz martial arts kung fu malarky is all well and good for impressing people at shows, but it's not for actual use. I'm sure plenty of comrades bashed the fascists with spades when their PPSh ran dry back in the great patriotic war, but I don't think you'll find 'ETH drills' in the pamphlet any time soon!

[JKP]

I AM an MG position mate! Charge me with a spade and find out what happens! :lol:

I had thought you were suggesting a last resort in room-to-room fighting, but if you're talking about in open fields then you're even more daft than I thought!


When did I seriously suggest open fields?

I was being sarcastic if you couldn't pick up on it.




but I don't think you'll find 'ETH drills' in the pamphlet any time soon!


Actually, they were in there from WW2 and beyond, but I lost my source for that so I'm afraid you'll have to take my word for it.


Anyways, I'm going to sleep.

[Erik2a4]

When did I seriously suggest open fields?

I was being sarcastic if you couldn't pick up on it.

Anyways, I'm going to sleep.

Don't forget your spade.

[seraosha]

Back in the day we used e-tools for cat holes, that's about it.
Never once dug a foxhole, not even in OSUT.

[Hydro]

The only thing I have ever used an ETH for was taking a dump.

[Sabre]

I bashed up a dead tree with one once

[Hydro]

Was it trying to shoot you with a GPMG?

[ShakesFIST]

E-tools are of little use these days. On the attack there is no time to dig anything of any usefulness. Maybe you should buy an Entrenching tool and go outside and time yourself on how fast it takes you to build a good fighting position. On the push north to Baghdad in 2003 we rarely stopped for long (maximum 4-6 hours a day) and that was just to keep the drivers rested and everyone from falling asleep on the guns. We stopped to eat, sleep, then move on. There just isnt enough time in modern manuver warfare to make fixed fortifications (as "quick" and simple as they may be).

They have their use but not enough to remove it from my ruck. It would be my LAST LAST LAST last ditch effort if I used it as a weapon. If I'm that desperate then the battle has probably turned and its not in my favor. It means Ive exhausted my ammo, and everyone elses that I can find. It means I have no explosives and Ive broken my knife and I cant find an enemy weapon either. That seems pretty far fetched as far as Im concerned.

[kosse]

I used E-tool once to construct a snow foxhole (****e) for defense positions. Damn it took some time to get enough snow to get enough compact snow for required protection against rifle calibre weapons. I became spade racist that day (and night :P).

[Erik2a4]

E-tools are of little use these days. On the attack there is no time to dig anything of any usefulness. Maybe you should buy an Entrenching tool and go outside and time yourself on how fast it takes you to build a good fighting position. On the push north to Baghdad in 2003 we rarely stopped for long (maximum 4-6 hours a day) and that was just to keep the drivers rested and everyone from falling asleep on the guns. We stopped to eat, sleep, then move on. There just isnt enough time in modern manuver warfare to make fixed fortifications (as "quick" and simple as they may be).

They have their use but not enough to remove it from my ruck. It would be my LAST LAST LAST last ditch effort if I used it as a weapon. If I'm that desperate then the battle has probably turned and its not in my favor. It means Ive exhausted my ammo, and everyone elses that I can find. It means I have no explosives and Ive broken my knife and I cant find an enemy weapon either. That seems pretty far fetched as far as Im concerned.

But you're not Spetsnaz. Next time I go back to Fallujah, I am bringing my sharpened Spade instead of more 5.56. I'm also bringing my gardening shears, a wood-chipper, and a garden weasel.

[ShakesFIST]

But you're not Spetsnaz. Next time I go back to Fallujah, I am bringing my sharpened Spade instead of more 5.56. I'm also bringing my gardening shears, a wood-chipper, and a garden weasel.

You forgot your sack of door knobs...some people are just totally incompetant in the ways of war...

[cliffg]

I have used my US Army folding e-tool as:

1) a shovel (but only once, in Basic, did we ever use them to dig fighting positions)
2) a camp stool (DO NOT try this with a Glock folding E-tool or one with a wooden handle!!)
3) to cut branches for cover (would have been easier using a large rock...)
and
4) as a paddle in a canoe (use cupped hands, instead)

On the whole, not a bad shovel for digging your car out of the snow, digging fire pits, and cat holes for...... y'know. Right now, I use an old German folding e-tool with the wooden handle for Scout campouts. No heavier then the tri-fold e-tool, and I like the wood handle in cold weather. But if you are going to be doing some serious poineering work, bring a proper shovel, axe, pick and saw.

With fluid, mechanized copmbat what it is, I agree that the notion of WWII "dig and hold" is not so relevant anymore. BUT, it is not a total thing of the past. In the end, an infanrtyman's best friend is Mother Earth. My E-tool may not have been on my LBE, it was always on my ruck. You never knew.......

[USMC Tanker]

So I guess we all agree (except JKP) that the e-tool shouldn't necessarily be strapped to your web gear at all times.

[Catch22]

Well spade-fetish, it's generally a Russian thing. Some Belarussian spetznaz guys showed us once some some tricks with it - throwing it at the distance, various techniques in h-2-h etc. Naturally they use fixed, not folding spades. To each it's own I'd say. I usually carry Glock E-tool in my buttpack and its quite usefull with normal works - far better and lighter than the standard NATO E-tool most of you mentioned, alas I can't say how will it stand against Gimpy or PK. ;-)

http://www.glock.com/e-tool.htm

[kayaker]

Another bright example of kids vs military personnel on a internet forum.

[Catch22]

"Ace of spades" got a new meaning you know.

[Pook2]

CSM Hockaday has something like 9 confirmed kills with an E-Tool.

[Roy Batty]

I spent the day today visiting a friend who was shot in the noggin in Afghanistan. I was telling him how he should have ducked at the appropriate time but I'll bet if he had a spade with him he could have beat all the Talibs in Kandahar province.

Note to self; contact Gen. Hillier and remind him to start issuing spades to CF :D

[supercontra]

Still no answer to the original question

Do todays soldiers start digging in as soon as they stop somewhere or don't they. Wether it's because of speed of movement in todays warfare, body armor making digging unnecessary, troop lazyness or nearby help from engineers.

[Beer Monster]

Still no answer to the original question


Do todays soldiers start digging in as soon as they stop somewhere or don't they.

It's not a yes or no answer. It depends on a number of factors.

If you're on foot (or for that matter mechanised) in a bare ar*e area with very little natural cover and you stop to harbour for the night (or an "extended amount of time") then yes you dig:-

http://www.173rdairborne.com/images/iraq12.jpg


But only a shell scrape ...... not a full on trench. Just to get you below ground level and give you piece of mind should the mortars start to fall.

If you are digging a trench then chances are you will be occupying a defensive position and again chances are that you will have some sort of engineer support to help you. Obviously you do still train to build you own trenches and I'm sure many people here have spent the occasional joyous night trying to take the direct route to Australia.

If however, you are stopping for a short period of time then its a waist of energy. You find a wall, ditch or some other piece of cover and get behind that.

[oldsoak]

Last time on exercise, we were told that we couldnt dig shell scrapes or the like on account that it mucks up the countryside.

[Sabre]

Yeah, there's generally a 'no-digging' policy on most training areas. Only certain places are allowed for digging in, a bit bone for training but must people I know are fine with that! :)


Was it trying to shoot you with a GPMG?

It looked at me the wrong way...

[GazB]

Another bright example of kids vs military personnel on a internet forum.

But we have only heard from western countries military personel who use folding spades that were never designed as a combat tool.
Perhaps those that extol the virtues of a knife over a spade in hand to hand combat might like to try engaging someone armed with a spade with sharpened edges who is trained to use it as a weapon first before dismissing such an idea.
A knife is a joke against 4-5 rounds of 30 cal ammo from a GPMG but does that mean a knife is no use in hand to hand combat?
Perhaps rather than exposing a kid this has just shown that military experience and an open mind on a subject they are not familiar with are not the same thing.

[Sabre]

Perhaps Gaz, but it has no place in our training. For example, if I were a GPMG gunner on a patrol, I wouldn't put myself in a position of having no rounds where I was exposed to any attack. I would always have a belt on. If I was running low then that would be the time to pull back to re-bomb, or pull out alltogether. The days of "climbing out of the trench shouting and swearing with his spade", as suggested in the article, are no longer with us. The days of holding off and malleting spade-wielding fanatics with CAS and FSG are here.

[DE_Six]

dude... the spade was hitlers' knife if the MG42 was hitler's chainsaw in terms of kills bagged...

it killed / injured personel only losing out to the MG 42 in terms of frags.

btw kosse , nice JA2 gus avatar ^^!!

"Frags"?

The primary cause of casualties on the battlefield since Wagram 1809 is artillery (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0275946738?v=glance). Everything else far, far behind.

About Viktor Suvorov...this guy wrote books full of "things", for lack of a better word.

IMHO: planning on using an e-tool as a combat implement is not good to start with. If it's last resort, then it's last resort and it'd better be handy right there, right then. Just my. 02$

[ShakesFIST]

"Frags"?

The primary cause of casualties on the battlefield since Wagram 1809 is artillery (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0275946738?v=glance). Everything else far, far behind.

About Viktor Suvorov...this guy wrote books full of "things", for lack of a better word.

IMHO: planning on using an e-tool as a combat implement is not good to start with. If it's last resort, then it's last resort and it'd better be handy right there, right then. Just my. 02$

I think hes talking about his experiances with Call Of Duty not reality. However if hes telling the truth Im suprised that the MG42 was the top killer in WW2 with the spade in second...

[CSAR]

Well, you'll never know what might happen. For example if your weapon breaks down, you run out of ammo or you lose it for some reason and there are no extra weapons laying around anywhere, a shovel is much better than a knife or bare hands. If visibility is bad or you are in for example a urban enviroment you might just actually manage to kill or incapacitate someone with it, especially if he's not wearing any protective gear. So I wouldn't say it's useless, though it's hard to think anyone would prefer it over a modern rifle or pistol. Those Spetsnaz fairytales sound like total BS.

[DE_Six]

I think hes talking about his experiances with Call Of Duty not reality. However if hes telling the truth Im suprised that the MG42 was the top killer in WW2 with the spade in second...

That'd put the German infantryman ahead of aerial bombing raids, heavy arty barrage and submarine warfare in terms of killing power.

How'd we ever defeat those guys if they could achieve that position with MGs and spades? :p

[ShakesFIST]

That'd put the German infantryman ahead of aerial bombing raids, heavy arty barrage and submarine warfare in terms of killing power.

How'd we ever defeat those guys if they could achieve that position with MGs and spades? :p

The only reason we didnt use atomic weapons on them is because the plane carrying the bomb was shot down by a Luger.

[RAFREGT.]

E=tool as a weapon?!?!?! seriously?!?!?! your having a laugh! When your taught how to use a rifle as a weapon, it doesn't stop being thay when your out of rounds! bayonet and every corner and edge of the weapon becomes lethal, just ask any British squaddie that has banged his head against the susat!

[Chewy Jada]

E=tool as a weapon?!?!?! seriously?!?!?! your having a laugh! When your taught how to use a rifle as a weapon, it doesn't stop being thay when your out of rounds! bayonet and every corner and edge of the weapon becomes lethal, just ask any British squaddie that has banged his head against the susat!

typical RAF; come to spade fight and bring a knifep-)
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/2311/spottshoveldm5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


SPETZNAZ! 111Russiastrong!!!!!
http://img347.imageshack.us/img347/3792/spetsnazshovelcb4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[DE_Six]

The only reason we didnt use atomic weapons on them is because the plane carrying the bomb was shot down by a Luger.

rofl

Puny A-bombs ain't got nothing on ze Luger. Better use a spetsnaz shovel.

[Erik2a4]

Perhaps Gaz, but it has no place in our training. For example, if I were a GPMG gunner on a patrol, I wouldn't put myself in a position of having no rounds where I was exposed to any attack. I would always have a belt on. If I was running low then that would be the time to pull back to re-bomb, or pull out alltogether. The days of "climbing out of the trench shouting and swearing with his spade", as suggested in the article, are no longer with us. The days of holding off and malleting spade-wielding fanatics with CAS and FSG are here.

Right, it comes down to training priorities. There are only 24 hours in a day (despite what the Sergeant Major says). So, given a limited amount of time to train, one has plan priorities. Marksmanship, Battle Drills (IA Drills), Physical Fitness and Medical Training are constants. Then you include Call for Fire, Call for CAS, Radio Procedures, Friendly/Enemy Weapons Familiarization, Combatives, Live Fire Exercises from Team Level to Company, Land Navigation, Language Courses, Equipment Maint. Courses, Administrative Requirements, Survival Training, UXO, OPORD Classes, Observation and Reporting, Patrolling, Deliberate Attacks, Mounted and Dismounted Movement, etc.

There's not a whole lot of time to cover the basics...and there's definitely not enough time to focus on proficiency with a spade as a weapon.

[Herrmannek]

Yeah, there's generally a 'no-digging' policy on most training areas. Only certain places are allowed for digging in, a bit bone for training but must people I know are fine with that! :)



It looked at me the wrong way...

I have backyard needing some digging... Feel welcome if you ever decide to come :)

[Catch22]

I can get you some spetznaz if you like Hermie, but honestly I'd doubt you'll be happy to see them in your own backyard ;-)

[CyberSpec]

Still no answer to the original question

Do todays soldiers start digging in as soon as they stop somewhere or don't they. Wether it's because of speed of movement in todays warfare, body armor making digging unnecessary, troop lazyness or nearby help from engineers.

Lots of comedians here...

Western soldiers rarely dig in, because they havent really fought a conventional war since Korea. It's one thing to fight guerillas armed with little more than a rusty AK-47 and a RPG-7 and you can call in air support at the first sign of resistance.

I'll bet you'd be looking for your spade if scores of shells and rockets were raining on your position or if you were under heavy air attack but can't get your own air-support because the airbases have been taken out.

[Sabre]

I beg to differ mate. In the Falklands conflict, our lads launched a scanty ship borne invasion against a dug in enemy with air support from mainland airbases and adequate artillary assets. The conflict was mainly foot-powered due to the loss of transport helos and the unsuitability of the terrain for vehicular transport. There was a great need to dig in and the blokes did. They still didn't sharpen their spades and fight the argies with them.

Again in the Gulf war, despite having superior airpower the coalition forces were still facing the world's 4th largest army. A colleauge of mine who went in literally at the tip of the spear with the British battle group was bricking it! They were told to expect 25% casualties and everytime they stopped they dug in. It would be stupid not to, as the Iraqi army was not a group of 'guerillas with rusty AKs'.

The same occured with the Iraq war. When units did stop for long enough, they dug shell scrapes for protection. I doubt anyone was getting the whetstone on their ETH, ready for some Iraqi Army or Fedayeen noggin-bashing though.

[flanker7]

I think that you are both saying the same thing. That in a conventional war(i.e. two well equipt armies fighting each other) diging, either with an E-tool or a regular shovel will save your life. E-tool are a compromise. You can dig better and faster with a full size shovel but you can always carry one with you. An E-tool is more compact to carry around.

[Sabre]

I was just correcting his view that western armies have not fought a conventional war since Korea. I think he would find Vietnam, Falklands and Gulf/Iraq vets would disagree with him there. In the 50 years since Korea, it has only been very recently that CAS options became routinely available to low level commanders. And if you are British, then there are most definately times when it still isn't available.

[CyberSpec]

I was just correcting his view that western armies have not fought a conventional war since Korea. I think he would find Vietnam, Falklands and Gulf/Iraq vets would disagree with him there. In the 50 years since Korea, it has only been very recently that CAS options became routinely available to low level commanders. And if you are British, then there are most definately times when it still isn't available.

I considered the 2 examples (Falklands / Gulf I & II) you mentioned when I made my post.

I agree that the Falklands War comes very close to what I had in mind:
2 conventional armies with neither having an overwhelming superiority over the other.
I didn't mention it, because the outcome was decided on the sea and air.

Once the British landed their main force, it was pretty much over, although I know there was some serious and nasty fighting to be done, including hand to hand fighting (no reports of spades being usedp-)).

To the British forces credit, I don't think many others (if any) could've pulled off that sort of operation with the resources available.

The overwhelming technological and firepower advantage in the Gulf wars of 1990/2003 meant that the opposition had no chance to put up a conventional fight.

[TwoFistedFlava]

One of my friends in the army had gotten the nickname "E-tool Dan" in Afghanistan because he has six confirmed kills with his entrenching tool. I think that's prooff enough that they can still make a good weapon. Him and his unit were going into pitch dark caves in Tora Bora with night vision and killing the terrorists silently with their knives and shovels. The Taliban never even knew what hit them.

[Erik2a4]

One of my friends in the army had gotten the nickname "E-tool Dan" in Afghanistan because he has six confirmed kills with his entrenching tool. I think that's prooff enough that they can still make a good weapon. Him and his unit were going into pitch dark caves in Tora Bora with night vision and killing the terrorists silently with their knives and shovels. The Taliban never even knew what hit them.

Dan's my cousin. He's transvestite though, so now he goes by Daniela. Deadliest ****-having woman with an E-tool in a six-mile radius of Kabul.

[Erik2a4]

Lots of comedians here...

Western soldiers rarely dig in, because they havent really fought a conventional war since Korea. It's one thing to fight guerillas armed with little more than a rusty AK-47 and a RPG-7 and you can call in air support at the first sign of resistance.

I'll bet you'd be looking for your spade if scores of shells and rockets were raining on your position or if you were under heavy air attack but can't get your own air-support because the airbases have been taken out.

We're talking about the Russian experience in Afghanistan. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the Russians had air-superiority over the muj.

[TwoFistedFlava]

Dan's my cousin. He's transvestite though, so now he goes by Daniela. Deadliest ****-having woman with an E-tool in a six-mile radius of Kabul.

You know Dan too!!!

[TwoFistedFlava]

Btw, I know that story sounds incredibly far-fetched, but it's 100% true. Some of the stuff he was doing there was pretty crazy, I would be willing to tell you more about him and his time in A-Stan but I don't think it's a good idea to be giving lots of info about him for obvious reasons.

[CyberSpec]

We're talking about the Russian experience in Afghanistan. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the Russians had air-superiority over the muj.

I thought we were talking about entrenching and why it's not being done as much these days.

I guess there's a greater emphasis on it in Russia and until recently in Eastern Europe as well.

There were was a saying that we were constantly reminded in basic training: "whenever your rifle is resting your spade will be busy" or something like that

[Sabre]

I considered the 2 examples (Falklands / Gulf I & II) you mentioned when I made my post.

I agree that the Falklands War comes very close to what I had in mind:
2 conventional armies with neither having an overwhelming superiority over the other.
I didn't mention it, because the outcome was decided on the sea and air.

I beg you (for your own safety) NEVER to say this when in a bar with Para's, RM or Scots Guards. :oops:

[Catch22]

I beg you (for your own safety) NEVER to say this when in a bar with Para's, RM or Scots Guards. :oops:

Actually, that might be a good way encourage them to employ their E-tools (maybe improvised at the time) in a less conventional way... ;-)

[Hydro]

Actually, that might be a good way encourage them to employ their E-tools (maybe improvised at the time) in a less conventional way... ;-)


No, no, that's the Green Jackets...












p-)

[CyberSpec]

I beg you (for your own safety) NEVER to say this when in a bar with Para's, RM or Scots Guards. :oops:

Actually, I've had a bar room "encounter" with ex-British Army personell and lived to tell the story....I do that sort of thing for a living.

...........

To get back on topic.

the video posted on the below thread is what I had in mind when I made my original post.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=90558

[Erik2a4]

This thread should have died days ago...

[Randomrokottaja]

The benefit of the carrying and using E-tool depends on the situation and the enemy.

When facing an enemy with heavy artillery and air support, digging in is highly recommended when ever possible or enough time to do so. Specially in defensive situations, for example when assaulting unit has recently captured it's objective area and instant enemy counter attack is expected.

Units don't use to stay at one spot for too long time though, and the reason for that is very simple...

"It's not heavy, but it's still heavy enough to crack somebody's skull open or smash somebody's face in."

Yes, E-tool can be effectively used against any uncovered body part. Doesn't feel nice when it gets smashed to hands, arms, legs or knees.

[Saranof]

I think some people seriously overestimate the usefulness of a spade in modern CQB..

[loganinkosovo]

This thread should have died days ago...

Especially considering its used mostly these days to dig a hole to take a crap in. :)

[Sabre]

^I just kick a hole with my boot. Does that make me uncivilised?