Canadians share Europe's distaste for US, except at mealtime

[EvanL]

Fri Apr 2, 6:28 PM ET


WASHINGTON (AFP) - Most Canadians share Europeans' distaste for US President George W. Bush (news - web sites) and his foreign policy, but find American food easier to swallow, a poll said.


AFP/***** Images Photo



Harris Interactive published last week a poll of France, Britain, Spain, Italy and Germany whose citizens generally like Americans, but cannot stomach their president, entertainment or their food.


Harris found Canadians less harsh on US film, television and food, since their lifestyles are similar.


All things considered, 36 percent of Canadians had a positive view and 36 percent had a negative view of the United States, nearly identical to European responses.


Canadians were more positive on the United States than were the British and the Italians, but less critical than the French and Germans, the poll found. Canadians polled most similar to Spaniards.


Sixty-seven percent of Canadians were critical of Bush, 65 percent were critical of his Iraq (news - web sites) policy, and 60 percent disliked his foreign policy.


And, like Europeans, only 15 percent of Canadians disliked Americans.


However, 56 percent of Europeans turned up their noses at American food, while just 14 percent of Canadians did.


The poll of 1,017 Canadians was taken by telephone March 9-16.

[Trigger]

No offence Evan, but most Americans care 0% about the opinions of other countries at this point.

[EvanL]

I am aware of that. I just thought that this was a neat article with an international perspective, that some of the international members would enjoy to read.
I think i can sum it up best with a quote from Homer Simpson
"Im acting the way America acts best. Unilaterally!"
;)

[Seoulstriker]

Yeah, no kidding, trig.

France and Germany and Canada want the US to be destroyed by terrorists. Do I really care about what they think? NO!

[Macs.]

Yeah, no kidding, trig.

France and Germany and Canada want the US to be destroyed by terrorists. Do I really care about what they think? NO!

Damn, how do you know that ?

That was our secret plan.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Yeah, no kidding, trig.

France and Germany and Canada want the US to be destroyed by terrorists. Do I really care about what they think? NO!

Wow if I had a signature that definately would be it. Because ya know Canada and Germany really hate America Seoul, we hate is so fawking much we even decided to go to war with the terrorists bastards with ya! Give your fawking head a good shake for me.

P.s. we really dont give a flying fawk what you think either

[Piotrek]

Yeah, no kidding, trig.

France and Germany and Canada want the US to be destroyed by terrorists. Do I really care about what they think? NO!

No I dont think so - Europeans question American way of fighting against terrorist not the fact of fighting terroirsm. Americans believe that they can solve every problem with theirs hi-tech army, but hi-tech armies are efficient only against hi-tech armiers not against terrorists who works undercover - the best way to fight against terrorism is good exchange of intelligence informations and special operations not full scale conflict - thats my opinion and it has nothing to do with likeing or not likeing USA.

[Kriz]

Yeah, no kidding, trig.

France and Germany and Canada want the US to be destroyed by terrorists. Do I really care about what they think? NO!

No we don't want the usa destroyed, we just wish they wouldn't have dumb people the likes of you in power ;)

[Ratamacue]

Yeah, no kidding, trig.

France and Germany and Canada want the US to be destroyed by terrorists. Do I really care about what they think? NO!

That is among the most retarded posts I've read since I registered here.

[mustamato]

No offence Evan, but most Americans care 0% about the opinions of other countries at this point.

I have noticed that you Trigger like to talk for all Americans, how come?
Even I as a non-American know and understand that all Americans are not
like you. And also that in some cities people are more Europe-friendly than in
others. Just look at New York and the fashion houses there and so forth, where
do they get almost all of their influences? Sure as hell not from Texas.

[Trigger]

I went door to door across America and took a poll.

What?

[Haiw]

Yeah, no kidding, trig.

France and Germany and Canada want the US to be destroyed by terrorists. Do I really care about what they think? NO!

That is among the most retarded posts I've read since I registered here.
Hot damn...is this George Wangchung Bush on his keyboard?! :roll:
Siiiiiiiiiiiiixgunnerific!

[Ichhabe]

No offence Evan, but most Americans care 0% about the opinions of other countries at this point.

So why do some Americans in here go totally fawking hyper ultra ballistic when some of us Europeans have the crying shame in our bones to critisize US-policy?
For me it seems like you at least care 1%.

And yet has noone told me how long we Europeans shall lick your asses for something you did 60 years ago. And we even helped you out helping us. Ach!!!

[Trigger]

Yeah, no kidding, trig.

France and Germany and Canada want the US to be destroyed by terrorists. Do I really care about what they think? NO!

That is among the most retarded posts I've read since I registered here.
Stick around Rat, I'm sure HELEX, or chumpchange garbagecans, or Mustamato can do worse.

[Trigger]

No offence Evan, but most Americans care 0% about the opinions of other countries at this point.

So why do some Americans in here go totally fawking hyper ultra ballistic when some of us Europeans have the crying shame in our bones to critisize US-policy? You mean like what happens 100 times a day around here? Hmmm. I wonder why.
For me it seems like you at least care 1%. Yeah, I care enough to try to point out their errors in my own special way.

And yet has noone told me how long we Europeans shall lick your asses for something you did 60 years ago. And we even helped you out helping us. Ach!!! I don't recall asking for my ass to be licked at any time. I do however, dislike it when SOME people from your side of the pond act like we didn't play a MAJOR role in liberating you.

[Haiw]

Should I post the link to a thread about some dog? ;)

[IDFM203]

Sorry to jump in but this quote here caught my attention ;)



And yet has noone told me how long we Europeans shall lick your asses for something you did 60 years ago. I don’t know about licking ass but the U.S. not only saved Europe 60 years ago but also had its forces ready for the past fifty years till about 13 years ago (well even now but it was for sure more applicable till about 13 or 14 years ago) ready and willing to defend Europe from becoming a communist region.

I think Europe owes the U.S. a lot more for just 60 years ago but rather ALSO for the past 60 years of U.S. pouring in billions each year and having its own troops ready and willing to shed blood for Europe.

If not for the U.S. presence all these years, there is no way Europe would be a fraction as prosperous as it has become today

You know you don’t need to kiss ass but gees the ungratefulness and utter contempt that ALOT in Europe have (and this was before the Iraq invasion as well) is appalling and inexcusable.

Shalom :D

[XASA]

No offence Evan, but most Americans care 0% about the opinions of other countries at this point.

So why do some Americans in here go totally fawking hyper ultra ballistic when some of us Europeans have the crying shame in our bones to critisize US-policy?
For me it seems like you at least care 1%.

And yet has noone told me how long we Europeans shall lick your asses for something you did 60 years ago. And we even helped you out helping us. Ach!!!

Admittingly, some of the Americans here are a bit more sensitive than others when it comes to being criticized; however, how would your countrymen react if they were constantly berated by foreigners?

Our country is evenly split on a lot of issues including Iraq, and those differences are debated hourly on 24-hour cable news, published every day in newspapers, and will be argued for the next four months by our political parties. I might not like Bush and what he's doing, but I certainly need to put up with hearing from other nationalities on what to do about it. We vote, and whether the Republicans or Democrats win, we who disagree can continue to voice our views. That is the American way.

Hearing you and others whine here about the same issues over and over again does nothing to add to the debate we are bombarded with every day. Since some of the arguments are so naive, misinformed and based on what another European in another thread call "hate" towards America, what kind of response do you expect?

We don't expect you to lick our asses, but we would like for you to get over your inferority complex and expecting us not to respond to your insults.

If you don't like it, why do so many of you spend so much time on a predominately American forum, where the views are strongly pro-American regardless of our personal differences. Weird.

[mustamato]

And yet has noone told me how long we Europeans shall lick your asses for something you did 60 years ago. I don’t know about licking ass but the U.S. not only saved Europe 60 years ago but also had its forces ready for the past fifty years till about 13 years ago (well even now but it was for sure more applicable till about 13 or 14 years ago) ready and willing to defend Europe from becoming a communist region.

And what says that the people of Europe was so afraid of communism? As
I see it the Marshal help was much to bribe Europe to not become communists,
after the war the communists almost won the elections in several countries,
and in some countries they won. I.e. Italy where they had what is known as
"Euro-communism", a version not as hardcore as the one in Soviet Union under
Stalin. And "communism light" (social democracy) was and is popular after
ww2 in Europe.

Both the US miliary presence and the money given was more to gain US themselves
than to actually "help" Europe.

[Trigger]

And what says that the people of Europe was so afraid of communism?
It probably had something to do with all the millions of people who got a bullet in the head if they didn't like what their communist leaders were doing.

[IDFM203]

And what says that the people of Europe was so afraid of communism? well if you say that most in Europe wanted communism then that’s what you say, in truth I doubt that is correct.

I think MOST in euope did NOT want communism….if I am wrong in that then please show me how for I am willing to concde it if indeed most did want it (hell I think most didn’t but it wouldn’t surprise me if I was worng here ;) )

Anyways let me ask you this, if the U.S. had left Europe right after ww2, and did not do any marshal plan, nor did it station its own troops for over fifty years, nor did it spend billions each year in the defense of Europe, which allowed Europe amongst many other benifits to not spend a lot of its own money on its own defense, and as a result the USSR took over all of Europe and communism was the sole system, would Europe be as prosperous as it has become?



Both the US miliary presence and the money given was more to gain US themselves
than to actually "help" Europe. I will be the first to admit that the U.S also acted out of its self interest as well (as I mentioned in the other similar thread) but it was in conjunction with a real desire to help and to keep a Europe from falling into communism which in the U.S. eyes (and rightfully so) only leads to unsuccessful economies and even perhaps brutal regimes etc etc...

Shalom :D

[Red]

Wow,this is getting kind of old.First all,i think some of the europeans here speak from both sides of their mouths.I am a migrant to the US and yes i dont always agree with all the things the US govt does but as you all must have been told before, there is a difference between a governemnt and its people.America is for americans,if you Europeans dont like it then mind your businees.Dont you guys have governments you can moan about?This "america is evil" thing is getting really old.I am frankly disappointed in some forum memebers who i had so much respect for, stooping so low to tap this "hate" vine.I wonder why guys like XASA and Trigger are even wasting their time answering these posts?

[duck]

The Warsaw Pact order of battle in 1989, 15 years ago.

WESTERN GROUP OF FORCES (WGF) 1988 - WESTERN TVD

(Also known as Group of Soviet Force Germany GSFG)

1. WGF HQ: Zossen, GDR.

2. 8th Guards Army HQ - Weimer-Nohra, GDR:

Historical Note: Activated in Oct 41 as the 7th Army, it was redesignated the 62nd Army at Stalingrad in July 43. These were the victors of Stalingrad and redesignated the 8th Guards Army and assigned to the GDR in Aug 45.


a. 79th Guards Tank Division - Jena, GDR:

1) 17th Guards Tank Regiment - Saalfeld, GDR: 94 T-80, 43 BMP-2, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13, 18 2S1

2) 65th Guards Tank Regiment - Weimer-Nohra, GDR: 94 T-80, 43 BMP-2, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13, 18 2S1

3) 211th Guards Tank Regiment - Jena, GDR: 94 T-80, 43 BMP-2, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13, 18 2S1

4) 66th Guards MRR - Weimer, GDR: 142 BMP-2, 40 T-80, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13, 18 2S1, 9 BRDM-3

5) 172nd Artillery Regiment - Rudelstadt, GDR: 48 2S3, 18 BM-21

6) 79th Air Defense Regiment - Jena, GDR: 20 SA-15, 21 SA-7/14/16

7) 79th SS-21 Battalion - Jena, GDR: 4 SS-21

8) 113th Recon Battalion - Rudelstadt, GDR: 6 T-80, 13 BRDM-2, 12 BMP-2, and 3 BRM

9) 79th Engineer Battalion - Jena, GDR: 8 TMM, 6 GSP, 18 PMP, 12 K-61, 4 BTM, 2 MTK, 3 GMZ

10) 79th Helicopter Squadron - Jena, GDR: 6 MI-24, 6 MI-8, 6 MI-2

b. 27th Guards Motorized Rifle Division - Halle, GDR: (Unit had recently moved, exact locations unknown)

1) 68th Guards MRR - Halle, GDR: 142 BMP-2, 40 T-80, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13, 18 2S1, 9 BRDM-3

2) 243rd Guards MRR - Halle, GDR: 156 BTR-80, 40 T-80, 4 ZSU-23, 4 SA-9, 18 D-30, 9 BRDM-3

3) 244th Guards MRR - Halle, GDR: 156 BTR-80, 40 T-80, 4 ZSU-23, 4 SA-9, 18 D-30, 9 BRDM-3

4) 28th Guards Tank Regiment - Halle, GDR: 94 T-80, 43 BMP-2, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13, 18 2S1

5) 54th Artillery Regiment - Halle, GDR: 72 2S3, 18 BM-21

6) 27th Air Defense Regiment - Jena, GDR: 20 SA-15, 21 SA-7/14/16

7) 27th SS-21 Battalion - Halle, GDR: 4 SS-21

8) 114th Recon Battalion - Halle, GDR: 6 T-80, 13 BRDM-2, 12 BMP-2, and 3 BRM

9) 27th Engineer Battalion - Halle, GDR: 8 TMM, 6 GSP, 18 PMP, 12 K-61, 4 BTM, 2 MTK, 3 GMZ

10) 27th Tank Battalion - Halle, GDR: 51 T-80

11) 27th Anti-Tank Battalion - Halle, GDR: 12 AT guns, 9 BRDM-3

12) 27th Helicopter Squadron - Halle, GDR: 6 MI-24, 6 MI-8, 6 MI-2

c. 39th Guards Motorized Rifle Division - Ohrdruf, GDR:

1) 172nd Guards MRR - Gotha, GDR: 142 BMP-2, 40 T-80, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13, 18 2S1, 9 BRDM-3

2) 120th Guards MRR - Ohrdruf, GDR: 156 BTR-80, 40 T-80, 4 ZSU-23, 4 SA-9, 18 D-30, 9 BRDM-3

3) 117th Guards MRR - Meiningen, GDR: 156 BTR-80, 40 T-80, 4 ZSU-23, 4 SA-9, 18 D-30, 9 BRDM-3

4) 15th Guards Tank Regiment - Ohrdruf, GDR: 94 T-80, 43 BMP-2, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13, 18 2S1

5) 87th Artillery Regiment - Gotha, GDR: 72 2S3, 18 BM-21

6) 39th Air Defense Regiment - Ohrdruf, GDR: 20 SA-15, 21 SA-7/14/16

7) 39th SS-21 Battalion - Ohrdruf, GDR: 4 SS-21

8) 11th Recon Battalion - Meiningen, GDR: 6 T-80, 13 BRDM-2, 12 BMP-2, and 3 BRM

9) 39th Engineer Battalion - Ohrdruf, GDR: 8 TMM, 6 GSP, 18 PMP, 12 K-61, 4 BTM, 2 MTK, 3 GMZ

10) 39th Tank Battalion - Ohrdruf, GDR: 51 T-80

11) 39th Anti-Tank Battalion - Ohrdruf, GDR: 12 AT guns, 9 BRDM-3

12) 39th Helicopter Squadron - Ohrdruf, GDR: 6 MI-24, 6 MI-8, 6 MI-2

d. 57th Guards Motorized Rifle Division - Naumberg, GDR

1) 174th Guards MRR - Weissenfels, GDR: 142 BMP-2, 40 T-80, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13, 18 2S1, 9 BRDM-3

2) 170th Guards MRR - Naumberg, GDR: 156 BTR-80, 40 T-80, 4 ZSU-23, 4 SA-9, 18 D-30, 9 BRDM-3

3) 241st Guards MRR - Leipzig, GDR: 156 BTR-80, 40 T-80, 4 ZSU-23, 4 SA-9, 18 D-30, 9 BRDM-3

4) 57th Guards Tank Regiment - Zeitz, GDR: 94 T-80, 43 BMP-2, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13, 18 2S1

5) 128th Artillery Regiment - Zeitz, GDR: 72 2S3, 18 BM-21

6) 57th Air Defense Regiment - Zeitz, GDR: 20 SA-15, 21 SA-7/14/16

7) 57th SS-21 Battalion - Zeitz, GDR: 4 SS-21

8) 93rd Recon Battalion - Muelhausen, GDR: 6 T-80, 13 BRDM-2, 12 BMP-2, and 3 BRM

9) 57th Engineer Battalion - Zeitz, GDR: 8 TMM, 6 GSP, 18 PMP, 12 K-61, 4 BTM, 2 MTK, 3 GMZ

10) 57th Tank Battalion - Zeitz, GDR: 51 T-80

11) 57th Anti-Tank Battalion - Naumberg, GDR: 12 AT guns, 9 BRDM-3

12) 57th Helicopter Squadron - Naumberg, GDR: 6 MI-24, 6 MI-8, 6 MI-2

e. 47th Tank Brigade - Plauen, GDR: 156 T-80, 18 2S1, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13

f. 8th GA Attack Helicopter Regiment - Weimar-Nohra, GDR: 40 MI-24, 20 MI-8E

g. 43rd Guards Artillery Brigade - Altenberg, GDR: 48 2S5, 48 D-20 (24 per battalion)

h. 8th GA SSM Brigade - Weissenfels, GDR: 18 SS-1c (SCUDb) launchers

i. 8th GA Rocket Regiment - Weissenfels, GDR: 54 BM-21 (18 per battalion)

j. 38th Anti-Tank Regiment - Altenberg, GDR: 36 AT guns, 27 BRDM-3 (12/9 per battalion)

k. 8th GA Eng Bde - Weimer, GDR: 20 TMM, 12 MTU, 36 PMP, 24 GSP, 28 K-61, 12 BTM, 3 GMZ, 3 MTK

l. 8th GA Pontoon Bridge Regiment - Weimer, GDR: 4 TMM, 108 PMP, 8 K-61, 3 BTM

m. 8th GA SAM Brigade - 1 Battalion each at Armstadt, Meiningen, and Saalfeld: 27 SA-4 (9 per bn)

n. 8th GA Air Assault Battalion - Weimer-Nohra, GDR: 17 BMD, 9 SA-14/16, 6 AGS-17, 8 120mm mortars

o. 8th GA Spetsnaz Battalion - Weimer, GDR: TO&E: up to 30 teams, 5-12 personnel per team

p. 8th GA Reconnaissance Battalion:

3. 1st Guards Tank Army HQ - Dresden, GDR:

a. 9th Tank Division - Riesa, GDR: see TO&E #5 with T-80, BMP-2, BTR-80, and SA-15

b. 11th Guard Tank Division - Dresden, GDR: see TO&E #5 with T-80, BMP-2, BTR-80, and SA-15

c. 20th Guards Motorized Rifle Division - Grimma, GDR:

1) 21st Guards MRR - Grimma, GDR: 142 BMP-2, 40 T-80, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13, 18 2S1, 9 BRDM-3

2) 19th Guards MRR - Plauen, GDR: 156 BTR-80, 40 T-80, 4 ZSU-23, 4 SA-9, 18 D-30, 9 BRDM-3

3) 20th Guards MRR - Wurzen, GDR: 156 BTR-80, 40 T-80, 4 ZSU-23, 4 SA-9, 18 D-30, 9 BRDM-3

4) 1st Guards Tank Regiment - Glauchou, GDR: 94 T-80, 43 BMP-2, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13, 18 2S1

5) 265th Artillery Regiment - Leisnig, GDR: 72 2S3, 18 BM-21

6) 20th Air Defense Regiment - Grimma, GDR: 20 SA-15, 21 SA-7/14/16

7) 20th SS-21 Battalion - Wurzen, GDR: 4 SS-21

8) 8th Recon Battalion - Grimma, GDR: 6 T-80, 13 BRDM-2, 12 BMP-2, and 3 BRM

9) 20th Engineer Battalion - Grimma, GDR: 8 TMM, 6 GSP, 18 PMP, 12 K-61, 4 BTM, 2 MTK, 3 GMZ

10) 20th Tank Battalion - Grimma, GDR: 51 T-80

11) 20th Anti-Tank Battalion - Grimma, GDR: 12 AT guns, 9 BRDM-3

12) 20th Helicopter Squadron - Grimma, GDR: 6 MI-24, 6 MI-8, 6 MI-2

d. 1st GTA Attack Helicopter Regiment - Brandis, GDR: 40 MI-24, 20 MI-8E

e. 1st GTA Artillery Brigade: 96 2S5 (24 per battalion)

f. 1st GTA SSM Brigade - 18 SS-1c (SCUDb) launchers

g. 1st GTA Rocket Regiment: 54 BM-21 (18 per battalion)

h. 1st GTA Engineer Brigade: 20 TMM, 12 MTU, 36 PMP, 24 GSP, 28 K-61, 12 BTM, 3 GMZ, 3 MTK

i. 35th Pontoon Bridge Regiment - Wittenberg, GDR: 4 TMM, 108 PMP, 8 K-61, 3 BTM

j. 1st GTA SAM Brigade - Meissen, GDR: 27 SA-4 (9 per battalion)

k. 1st GTA Air Assault Battalion - Leipzig, GDR: 17 BMD, 9 SA-14/16, 6 AGS-17, 8 120mm mortars

l. 1st GTA Spetsnaz Battalion: up to 30 teams, 5-12 personnel per team

m. 6th Reconnaissance Battalion - Dresden, GDR:


4. 3rd Shock Tank Army HQ - Madgeburg, GDR:

a. 7th Guards Tank Division - Rosslau, GDR: see TO&E #5 with T-80, BMP-2, BTR-80, and SA-15

b. 10th Guards Tank Division - Altengrabow, GDR: see TO&E #5 with T-80, BMP-2, BTR-80, and SA-15

c. 12th Guards Tank Division - Neuruppin, GDR: see TO&E #5 with T-80, BMP-2, BTR-80, and SA-15

d. 47th Guards Tank Division - Hillersleben, GDR: see TO&E #5 with T-80, BMP-2, BTR-80, and SA-15

e. 3rd Shock Attack Helicopter Regiment - Parchim, GDR: 40 MI-24, 20 MI-8E

f. 304th Artillery Brigade - Burg, GDR: 96 2S5 (24 per battalion)

g. 3rd Shock SSM Brigade: 18 SS-1c (SCUDb) launchers

h. 3rd Shock Rocket Regiment: 54 BM-21 (18 per battalion)

i. 3rd Shock Engineer Brigade: 20 TMM, 12 MTU, 36 PMP, 24 GSP, 28 K-61, 12 BTM, 3 GMZ, 3 MTK

j. 36th Pontoon Bridge Regiment - Dalgow, GDR: 4 TMM, 108 PMP, 8 K-61, 3 BTM

k. 3rd Shock SAM Brigade: 27 SA-4 (9 per battalion)

l. 3rd Shock Air Assault Battalion: 17 BMD, 9 SA-14/16, 6 AGS-17, 8 120mm mortars

m. 3rd Shock Spetsnaz Battalion: up to 30 teams, 5-12 personnel per team

n. 3rd Shock Reconnaissance Battalion:

5. 2nd Guards Tank Army HQ - Neubrandenburg, GDR:

a. 16th Guards Tank Division - Neustrelitz, GDR: see TO&E #5 with T-80, BMP-2, BTR-80, and SA-15

b. 94th Guards Motorized Rifle Division - Schwerin, GDR: see TO&E #4 with T-80, BMP-2, BTR-80, SA-15

c. 21st Motorized Rifle Division - Perleberg, GDR: see TO&E #4 with T-64B, BMP-2, BTR-80, & SA-8

d. 207th Motorized Rifle Division - Stendal, GDR: see TO&E #4 with T-64B, BMP-2, BTR-80, & SA-8

e. 2nd GTA Attack Helicopter Regiment - Stendal, GDR: 40 MI-24, 20 MI-8E

f. 2nd Artillery Brigade: 96 2S5 (24 per battalion)

g. 2nd GTA SSM Brigade: 18 SS-1c (SCUDb) launchers

h. 2nd GTA Rocket Regiment: 54 BM-21 (18 per battalion)

i. 2nd GTA Engineer Brigade: 20 TMM, 12 MTU, 36 PMP, 24 GSP, 28 K-61, 12 BTM, 3 GMZ, 3 MTK

j. 413th Pontoon Bridge Regiment: 4 TMM, 108 PMP, 8 K-61, 3 BTM

k. 2nd GTA SAM Brigade: 27 SA-4 (9 per battalion)

l. 2nd GTA Air Assault Battalion: 17 BMD, 9 SA-14/16, 6 AGS-17, 8 120mm mortars

m. 2nd GTA Spetsnaz Battalion: up to 30 teams, 5-12 personnel per team

n. 2nd GTA Reconnaissance Battalion:

6. 20th Guards Army HQ -Eberswalde, GDR.

a. 32nd Guards Tank Division - Juterbog, GDR: see TO&E #5 with T-64B, BMP-2, BTR-80, & SA-8

b. 25th Tank Division - Vogelsang, GDR: see TO&E #5 with T-64B, BMP-2, BTR-80, & SA-8

c. 90th Guards Tank Division - Bernau, GDR: see TO&E #5 with T-64B, BMP-2, BTR-80, & SA-8

d. 35th Motorized Rifle Division: Doeberitz, GDR: see TO&E #4 with T-64B, BMP-2, BTR-80, & SA-8

e. 20th GA Attack Helicopter Regiment - Mahwinkel, GDR: 40 MI-24, 20 MI-8E

f. 71st Guards Artillery Brigade - Bernau, GDR: 96 2S5 (24 per battalion)

g. 20th GA SSM Brigade - Juterborg, GDR: 18 SS-1c (SCUDb) launchers

h. 20th GA Rocket Regiment: 54 BM-21 (18 per battalion)

i. 20th GA Engineer Brigade: 20 TMM, 12 MTU, 36 PMP, 24 GSP, 28 K-61, 12 BTM, 3 GMZ, 3 MTK

j. 3rd Pontoon Bridge Regiment - Eberswalde, GDR: 4 TMM, 108 PMP, 8 K-61, 3 BTM

k. 20th GA SAM Brigade: 27 SA-4 (9 per battalion)

l. 20th GA Air Assault Battalion: 17 BMD, 9 SA-14/16, 6 AGS-17, 8 120mm mortars

m. 20th GA Spetsnaz Battalion: up to 30 teams, 5-12 personnel per team

n. 5th Tank Brigade. Guestrow, GDR: 156 T-80, 18 2S1, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13

o. 20th GA Anti-Tank Regiment: 36 AT guns, 27 BRDM-3 (12/9 per battalion)

p. 51st Reconnaissance Battalion - Eberswalde, GDR:

7. WGF assets:

a. 34th Artillery Division - Potsdam, GDR: (Unique task organization)

1) 1/34 Howitzer Brigade: 72 2S3

2) 2/34 Howitzer Brigade: 72 2S3
3) 3/34 Howitzer Brigade: 72 2S5
4) 4/34 Gun Brigade: 72 2S7
5) 5/34 High Powered Arty Bde: 24 2S7, 24 2S4
6) 6/34 Rocket Launcher Brigade: 72 BM-27

b. 6th Motorized Rifle Brigade - Berlin, GDR:

1) 4 Motorized Rifle Battalions: 43 BMP-2, 6 AGS-17, 9 SA-7/14/16, 8 120mm mortar per bn

2) 1 Tank Battalion: 40 T-80

3) 1 Artillery Battalion: 24 2S1

4) 1 Air Defense Battery: 4 2S6, 4 SA-13, 3 BMP-2

5) 1 Anti-Tank Missile Battery: 9 BRDM-3

6) 1 Recon Company: 3 BMP-2, 4 BRDM-2, 1 BRM, 3 Motorcycles

7) 1 Engineer Company:

c. SSM Brigade - Neubrandenburg, GDR: 18 SS-23

d. SSM Brigade - Bautzen, GDR: 18 SS-23

e. 35th Air Assault Brigade - Cottbus, GDR: see TO&E #8

f. Engineer Brigade: 20 TMM, 12 MTU, 36 PMP, 24 GSP, 28 K-61, 12 BTM, 12 GMZ, 3 MTK

g. SAM Brigade - located various key installations: 27 SA-4 (9 per battalion)

h. SAM Brigade - Rostock and Rudelstadt, GDR: 27 SA-5 (9 per battalion)

i. SAM Regiment - Rehagen, GDR: 20 SA-15

j. Spetsnaz Brigade - Fuerstenberg, GDR: up to 2000 personnel, 3-4 battalions (80-100 teams total)

k. Pontoon Bridge Regiment:

l. Railway/Pontoon Bridge Brigade - Annaburg, GDR:

[duck]

WGF Air Forces

1. Air Army HQ - Zossen, GDR:

2. 61st Air Corps (Southern Air Corps) - Wittenburg, GDR:

a. 6th Fighter Division - Merseberg, GDR:

1) 31st Fighter Regiment - Falkenburg, GDR: 56 MIG-29

2) 296th Fighter Regiment - Altenburg, GDR: 45 MIG-23

3) 73rd Fighter Regiment - Merseberg, GDR: 53 MIG-23

b. 126th Fighter Division - Zerbst, GDR:

1) 35th Fighter Regiment - Zerbst, GDR: 53 MIG-29

2) 833rd Fighter Regiment - Juterbog, GDR: 51 MIG-23

3) 85th Fighter Regiment - Kothen, GDR: 49 MIG-23

c. 105th Fighter-Bomber Division - Grossenhain, GDR:

1) 116th FB Regiment - Brandis, GDR: 15 SU-25, 30 SU-24

2) 497th FB Regiment - Grossenhain, GDR: 53 MIG-27

3) 339th FB Regiment - Finsterwald, GDR: 15 SU-25, 45 MIG-27

d. 61st Recon Regiment - Wittenburg, GDR: 30 MIG-25, 15 MIG-31

3. 60th Air Corps (Northern Air Corps) - Located Potsdam, GDR:

a. Fighter Division: 50+ MIG-29, 100+ MIG-23

b. Fighter Division: 50+ MIG-29, 100+ MIG-23

c. Fighter-Bomber Division: 30+ SU-25, 30+ SU-24, 100+ MIG-27

d. Recon Regiment: 45 MIG-25

[duck]

NORTHERN GROUP OF FORCES (NGF) - WESTERN TVD

(Soviet Forces based in Poland)

1. NGF HQ - Warsaw, Poland:

2. NGF Assets:

a. 20th Tank Division: Sagan, Poland: see TO&E #5 with T-64B, BMP-2, BTR-60, & SA-8

b. 6th Guards Motorized Rifle Division Division: Borne, Poland: see TOE #4 T-64B, BMP-2, BTR-60, SA-8

c. SSM Brigade. 18 SS-1c (SCUDb) launchers

d. SAM Brigade: 27 SA-4 (9 per battalion)

e. Attack Helicopter Regiment: Legnica, Poland. Equip: 40 MI-24, 20 MI-8E

NGF Air Forces

1. Legnica Air Army -Legnica, Poland:

a. 1st Legnica Fighter Division: 150 MIG-29, 50 MIG-23 (50 per regiment)

b. 2nd Legnica Fighter-Bomber Division: 135 SU-24 (45 per regiment)

c. 3rd Legnica Fighter-Bomber Division: 135 SU-24 (45 per regiment)

[duck]

CENTRAL GROUP OF FORCES (CGF) - WESTERN TVD

(Soviet Forces based in Czechoslovakia)

Note: Other Army and Front assets may be available other than shown below - refer to generic TO&E #1 and 2.

1. CGF HQ - Mlovice, CZ:

2. 4th Guards Army HQ - Mlovice, CZ:

a. 1st Guards Tank Division - Mlovice, CZ: see TO&E #5 with T-80, BMP-2, BTR-80, & SA-15

b. 51st Tank Division - Bruntal, CZ: see TO&E #5 with T-64B, BMP-2, BTR-60, & SA-8

c. 18th Guards Motorized Rifle Division - Mlada Boleslav, CZ: see TOE #4 T-80, BMP-2, BTR-80, & SA-15

d. 30th Guards Motorized Rifle Division - Zvolen, CZ: see TO&E #4 with T-64B, BMP-2, BTR-60, & SA-6

e. 48th Motorized Rifle Division - Vysoke Myto, CZ: see TO&E #4 with T-64B, BMP-2, BTR-60, & SA-6

f. Attack Helicopter Regiment - Mlovice, CZ: 40 MI-24, 20 MI-8E

g. Artillery Brigade: 96 2S5 (24 per battalion)

h. SSM Brigade: 18 SS-1c (SCUDb) launchers

i. Rocket Regiment: 54 BM-21 (18 per battalion)

j. Engineer Brigade: 20 TMM, 12 MTU, 36 PMP, 24 GSP, 28 K-61, 12 BTM, 3 GMZ, 3 MTK

k. Pontoon Bridge Regiment: 4 TMM, 108 PMP, 8 K-61, 3 BTM

l. SAM Brigade - Mlovice, CZ: 27 SA-4 (9 per battalion)

m. Air Assault Battalion - Mlovice, CZ: 17 BMD, 9 SA-14/16, 6 AGS-17, 8 120mm mortars

n. Spetsnaz Battalion: up to 30 teams, 5-12 personnel per team

o. Tank Brigade: 156 T-80, 18 2S1, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13

p. Anti-Tank Regiment: 36 AT guns, 27 BRDM-3 (12/9 per battalion)

3. CGF Assets:

a. High Powered Artillery Brigade: 24 2S7, 24 2S4

b. 2 SSM Brigade: 18 SCUDb per brigade

c. 34th Air Assault Brigade - Mlovice, CZ: see TO&E #8

d. Engineer Brigade: 20 TMM, 12 MTU, 36 PMP, 24 GSP, 28 K-61, 12 BTM, 12 GMZ, 3 MTK

e. SAM Brigade - located various key installations: 27 SA-4 (9 per battalion)

f. SAM Regiment - Pilsen, CZ: 18 SA-5

CGF Air Forces

1. Fighter-Bomber Division - Mlovice, CZ: 45 MIG-23, 45 MIG-27, 45 SU-17

[duck]

SOUTHERN GROUP OF FORCES (SGF) - SOUTHWESTERN TVD

(Soviet Forces based in Hungary)

Note: Other Army and Front assets may be available other than shown below - refer to generic TO&E #1 and 2.

1. SGF HQ - Budapest, Hungary:

2. 9th Guards Army HQ - Budapest, Hungary:

a. 2nd Guards Tank Division - Esztergom, HU: see TO&E #5 with T-80, BMP-2, BTR-80, & SA-15

b. 13th Guards Tank Division -Veszprem, HU: see TO&E #5 with T-64B, BMP-2, BTR-60, & SA-8

c. 93rd Guards Motorized Rifle Division - Kecskemet, HU: see TOE #4 with T-80, BMP-2, BTR-80, & SA-15

d. 253rd Motorized Rifle Division - Szekesfehervar, HU: see TO&E #4 with T-64B, BMP-2, BTR-60, & SA-6

e. Attack Helicopter Regiment: 40 MI-24, 20 MI-8E

f. Artillery Brigade: 96 2S5 (24 per battalion)

g. SSM Brigade: 18 SS-1c (SCUDb) launchers

h. Rocket Regiment: 54 BM-21 (18 per battalion)

i. Engineer Brigade: 20 TMM, 12 MTU, 36 PMP, 24 GSP, 28 K-61, 12 BTM, 3 GMZ, 3 MTK

j. Pontoon Bridge Regiment: 4 TMM, 108 PMP, 8 K-61, 3 BTM

k. SAM Brigade: 27 SA-4 (9 per battalion)

l. Air Assault Battalion: 17 BMD, 9 SA-14/16, 6 AGS-17, 8 120mm mortars

m. Spetsnaz Battalion: up to 30 teams, 5-12 personnel per team

n. Anti-Tank Regiment: 36 AT guns, 27 BRDM-3 (12/9 per battalion)

3. SGF Assets:

a. High Powered Artillery Brigade: 24 2S7, 24 2S4

b. 2 SSM Brigade: 18 SCUDb per brigade

c. Engineer Brigade: 20 TMM, 12 MTU, 36 PMP, 24 GSP, 28 K-61, 12 BTM, 12 GMZ, 3 MTK

d. SAM Brigade: Located various key installations: 27 SA-4 (9 per battalion)

SGF Air Forces

1. Fighter Division - Hungary: 90 MIG-23, 45 MIG-29

2. Fighter-Bomber Division - Hungary: 90 SU-17, 45 SU-25

3. Recon Squadron - Hungary: 15 MIG-21R

[cut]

No offence Evan, but most Americans care 0% about the opinions of other countries at this point.

no offence trigger but there aren't only americans in the world or on this board

[Trigger]

It was directed at Americans ;)

[duck]

Last but not least, the European Soviet military districts in 1989.

LENINGRAD MILITARY DISTRICT - NORTHWEST TVD

(Soviet Forces available against NATO- primarily AFNORTH and AFSOUTH)

Note 1: Other Army and Front assets may be available other than shown below - refer to TO&E #1, 2 & 3

Note 2: Named locations within the former USSR will indicate current country location for ease of finding if possible. If USSR is used, it indicates I could not locate it with my map finder or the name has been changed. In some cases there are multiple cities with the same name in which case I added a few notes to help pinpoint the right one.

Note 3: The Air Forces included in the Military District OOB's are available for deployment. It does not include those Air Forces assigned to the Air Defense Force (PVO).

1. Leningrad Military District HQ - Leningrad, Russia:

2. 6th Combined Arms Army - Leningrad, Russia: reinforces the WGF

a. 37th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat A) - Paragolova, (near Leningrad) Russia: see TO&E #4

b. 54th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Leningrad (St Petersburg), Russia: see TO&E #4

c. 63rd Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Kandalaksha, Russia: see TO&E #4

d. 65th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Riga, Latvia: see TO&E #4

e. 68th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Pskov, Russia: see TO&E #4

f. 6th CAA assets: see TO&E #2

3. Vyborg Corps - Vyborg, Russia: the USSR rarely uses a Corps HQ preferring Army level commands. These are not to be confused with the Unified Corps used as Operational Maneuver Groups.

a. 45th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Vyborg, Russia: see TO&E #4

b. 64th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Priozersk, Russia: see TO&E #4

c. 111th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Sortavala, Russia: see TO&E #4

4. Archangel Corps - Archangel, Russia:

a. 45th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Murmansk, Russia: see TO&E #4

b. 69th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Severodvinsk, Russia: see TO&E #4

c. 77th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Archangel, Russia: see TO&E #4

5. 36th Guards Naval Infantry Brigade (Cat A) - Pecenga, Russia: see TO&E #15

6. 76th Guards Airborne Division (Cat A)- Pskov, Russia: see TO&E #6

7. 26th Artillery Division (Cat A) - Puskin, Russia: see TO&E #7

8. 145th Artillery Division (Cat B) - Puskin, Russia: see TO&E #7

9. Spetsnaz Naval Brigade (CAT A) - Leningrad, Russia: see TO&E #1g

10. 33rd Air Assault Brigade - Leningrad, Russia: see TO&E #8

LMD Air Forces

1. 1st Leningrad Fighter Division: 135 MIG-23 (45 per regiment)

2. 2nd Leningrad Fighter-Bomber Division: 90 MIG-27, 45 SU-17

BALTIC MILITARY DISTRICT - WESTERN TVD

(Soviet reinforcements available to WGF)

1. Baltic Military District HQ - Kaliningrad, Russia:

2. 11th Guards Army - Kaliningrad, Russia - reinforces WGF:

a. 15th Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Kaliningrad, Russia: see TO&E #5

b. 40th Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Sovetsk, Russia (on the border of Lithuania): see TO&E #5

c. 1st Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Kaliningrad, Russia: see TO&E #4

d. 3rd Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Klaipeda, Lithuania: see TO&E #4

e. 11th GA assets: see TO&E #2

3. 14th Combined Arms Army - Kaunas, Lithuania - reinforces WGF:

a. 24th Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Dobele, Latvia: see TO&E #5

b. 26th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Gusev, Russia: see TO&E #4

c. 88th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Tallinn, Estonia: see TO&E #4

d. 107th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Jonava, Lithuania: see TO&E #4

e. 14th CAA assets: see TO&E #2

4. 7th Guards Airborne Division (Cat A) - Kaunas, Lithuania: see TO&E #6

5. 44th Guards Airborne Division - Kaunas, Lithuania: training unit

6. Baltic Naval Infantry Brigade (Cat A) - Kaliningrad, Russia: see TO&E #15

7. 129th Artillery Division (Cat A) - Kaliningrad, Russia: see TO&E #7

8. 344th Artillery Division (Cat A) - Kaliningrad, Russia: see TO&E #7

9. Spetsnaz Naval Brigade (CAT A) - Kaliningrad, Russia: see TO&E #1g

10. 32nd Air Assault Brigade - Kaliningrad, Russia: see TO&E #8

BMD Air Forces

1. Baltic Air Corps - Kaliningrad, Russia:

a. 1st Baltic Fighter Division: 90 MIG-29, 45 SU-27

b. 2nd Baltic Fighter Division: 90 MIG-23, 45 SU-27

c. 3rd Baltic Fighter-Bomber Division: 45 MIG-27, 45 SU-25, 45 SU-24

d. Recon Regiment: 45 MIG-25R



BYELORUSSIAN MILITARY DISTRICT - WESTERN TVD

(Soviet reinforcements available to WGF)

1. Byelorussian Military District HQ - Minsk, Belarus:

2. 5th Guards Tank Army - Babrujsk, Belarus: reinforces the WGF

a. 6th Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Babrujsk, Belarus: see TO&E #5

b. 8th Guards Tank Division (Cat A) - Homel, Belarus: see TO&E #5

c. 22nd Tank Division (Cat B) - Babrujsk, USSR: see TO&E #5

b. 29th Tank Division (Cat B) - Sluck, Belarus: see TO&E #5

b. 56th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Mazyr, Belarus: see TO&E #4

f. 5th GTA assets: see TO&E #3

3. 7th Guards Tank Army - Barysau, Belarus: reinforces the WGF

a. 3rd Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Lepel, Belarus: see TO&E #5

b. 34th Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Barysau, Belarus: see TO&E #5

c. 37th Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Polotsk, Belarus: see TO&E #5

d. 47th Tank Division (Cat B) - Barysau, Belarus: see TO&E #5

e. 58th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Barysau, Belarus: see TO&E #4

f. 7th GTA assets: see TO&E #3

4. 28th Combined Arms Army (CAA) - Grodno (Hrodno on some maps), Belarus: reinforces the WGF

a. 8th Tank Division (Cat B) - Slonim, USSR: see TO&E #5

b. 45th Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Grodno, Belarus: see TO&E #5

c. 50th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Brest, Belarus: see TO&E #4

d. 120th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat A) - Minsk, Belarus: see TO&E #4

e. 28th CAA assets: see TO&E #2

5. 1st Unified Corps (Cat A) - Minsk, Belarus:


a. 3 Tank Brigades: 156 T-80, 18 2S1, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13 each brigade

b. Motorized Rifle Regiment: see TO&E #11

c. Artillery Brigade: 48 2S3, 48 2S5

d. Air Defense Regiment: 20 SA-15, 21 SA-7/14/16

e. Attack Helicopter Regiment: 40 MI-24, 20 MI-8E

f. Recon Battalion: 6 T-80, 13 BRDM-2, 12 BMP-2, and 3 BRM

g. Engineer Battalion: 8 TMM, 6 GSP, 18 PMP, 12 K-61, 4 BTM, 2 MTK, 3 GMZ

6. 103rd Guards Airborne Division (Cat A) - Vitebsk, Belarus: see TO&E #6

7. 3rd Guards Artillery Division (Cat A) - Osipovici, Belarus: see TO&E #7

8. 5th Artillery Division (Cat B) - Brest, Belarus: see TO&E #7

9. 31st Air Assault Brigade - Minsk, Belarus: see TO&E #8

BRMD Air Forces

1. Byelorussian Air Corps - Minsk, Belarus:

a. 1st BRMD Fighter Division: 90 MIG-29, 45 SU-27

b. 2nd BRMD Fighter Division: 135 MIG-23 (45 per regiment)

c. 3rd BRMD Fighter-Bomber Division: 45 MIG-27, 45 SU-25, 45 SU-24



CARPATHIAN MILITARY DISTRICT - WESTERN TVD

(Soviet reinforcements available to WGF/CGF)

1. Carpathian Military District HQ - at L'vov, Ukraine:

2. 8th Guards Tank Army - Zhytomyr, Ukraine: reinforces the WGF

a. 23rd Tank Division (Cat A) - Ovruch, Ukraine: see TO&E #5

b. 17th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Khmel'nyts'kyi, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

c. 66th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Chernovtsy, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

d. 117th Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Berdichi, Ukraine: see TO&E #5

e. 5th GTA assets: see TO&E #3

3. 13th Combined Arms Army (CAA) - Rovno, USSR: reinforces the WGF

a. 13th Tank Division (Cat B) - Novograd-Volyns'kyi, Ukraine: see TO&E #5

b. 15th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat A) - Rovno, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

c. 24th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - L'vov, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

d. 97th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Slavuta, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

e. 13th CAA assets: see TO&E #2

4. 38th Combined Arms Army - Ivano-Frankovsk, Ukraine: reinforces the WGF

a. 30th Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Ivano-Frankovsk, Ukraine: see TO&E #5

b. 61st Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Uzhgorod, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

c. 70th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Ivano-Frankovsk, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

d. 128th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Mukacheve, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

e. 38th CAA assets: see TO&E #2

5. 2nd Unified Corps (Cat A) - L'vov, Ukraine:


a. 3 Tank Brigades: 156 T-80, 18 2S1, 4 2S6, 4 SA-13 each brigade

b. Motorized Rifle Regiment: see TO&E #11

c. Artillery Brigade: 48 2S3, 48 2S5

d. Air Defense Regiment: 20 SA-15, 21 SA-7/14/16

e. Attack Helicopter Regiment: 40 MI-24, 20 MI-8E

f. Recon Battalion: 6 T-80, 13 BRDM-2, 12 BMP-2, and 3 BRM

g. Engineer Battalion: 8 TMM, 6 GSP, 18 PMP, 12 K-61, 4 BTM, 2 MTK, 3 GMZ

6. 36th Artillery Division (Cat A) - Kamenskaya-Slobada, Ukraine: see TO&E #7

7. 81st Artillery Division (Cat A) - Vinogradovka, Ukraine: see TO&E #7

8. 37th Air Assault Brigade - L'vov, Ukraine: see TO&E #8





CMD Air Forces

1. Carpathian Air Corps - L'vov, Ukraine:

a. 1st Carpathian Fighter Division: 90 MIG-29, 45 SU-27

b. 2nd Carpathian Fighter-Bomber Division: 45 MIG-27, 45 SU-25, 45 SU-24



KIEV MILITARY DISTRICT (KMD) - SOUTHWESTERN TVD

(Soviet reinforcements for the WGF/CGF/SGF)

1. Kiev Military District - Kiev, Ukraine:

2. 4th Guards Tank Army - Chernigov, Ukraine:

a. 14th Tank Division (Cat B) - Vypolzov, Ukraine: see TO&E #5

b. 42nd Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Vol'noye, Ukraine: see TO&E #5

c. 48th Tank Division (Cat B) - Vypolzov, Ukraine: see TO&E #5

d. 7th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) -Konotop, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

e. 46th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Chernigov, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

f. 4th GTA assets: see TO&E #3

3. 6th Guards Tank Army - Dnepropetrovsk, USSR:

a. 18th Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Cherkassy, Ukraine: see TO&E #5

b. 20th Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Krivoj Rog, Ukraine: see TO&E #5

c. 40th Tank Division (Cat B) - Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine: see TO&E #5

d. 41st Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Artemovskiy, Ukraine: see TO&E #5 with latest equipment

e. 4th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Lugansk, USSR: see TO&E #4

f. 6th GTA assets: see TO&E #3

4. 18th Combined Arms Army (CAA) - Poltava, USSR:

a. 75th Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Chuguyev, Ukraine: see TO&E #5

b. 29th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Lubny, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

c. 47th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Vorishilovgrad, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

d. 60th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Poltava, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

e. 72nd Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Belaya Tserkov, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

f. 18th CAA assets: see TO&E #2

5. 149th Artillery Division (Cat A) - Novomoskovsk, Ukraine: see TO&E #7

6. 342nd Artillery Division (Cat A) - Fastovka, Ukraine: see TO&E #7

KMD Air Forces

1. Vinnitsa Air Corps - Vinnitsa, USSR:

a. 1st Vinnitsa Fighter Division: 90 MIG-29, 45 SU-27

b. 2nd Vinnitsa Fighter Division: 90 MIG-29, 45 SU-27

c. 3rd Vinnitsa Fighter-Bomber Division: 4 regiments with 180 SU-24 (45 per regiment)

d. Recon Regiment: 45 MIG-25R



ODESSA MILITARY DISTRICT (OMD) - SOUTHWESTERN TVD

(Soviet reinforcements for the WGF/CGF/SGF)



1. Odessa Military District HQ - Odessa, Ukraine:

2. 12th Combined Arms Army (CAA) - Simferopol, USSR:

a. 34th Tank Division (Cat B) - Nikolayev, Ukraine: see TO&E #5

b. 28th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Odessa, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

c. 92nd Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Sevastopol, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

d. 126th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Simferopol, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

e. 128th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Feodosiya, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

f. 12th CAA assets: see TO&E #2

3. 19th Combined Arms Army (CAA) - Kishinev, USSR:

a. 33rd Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Bel’tsy, Moldava: see TO&E #4

b. 55th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Kishinev, Moldava: see TO&E #4

c. 59th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat B) - Tiraspol, Moldava: see TO&E #4

d. 118th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Bolgrad, Ukraine: see TO&E #4

e. 19th CAA assets: see TO&E #2

4. 102nd Guards Airborne Division (Cat A) - Kishinev, Moldava: see TO&E #6

5. 2nd Guards Artillery Division (Cat A) - Zaporozhets, Moldava: see TO&E #7

6. Black Sea Naval Infantry Brigade (Cat A): Sevastopol, Ukraine: see TO&E #15

7. Spetsnaz Naval Brigade (CAT A) - Sevastopol, Ukraine: see TO&E #1g

8. 38th Air Assault Brigade (Cat A)- Odessa, Ukraine: see TO&E #8

OMD Air Forces

1. Odessa Air Corps - Odessa, Ukraine:

a. 1st OMD Fighter Division: 135 MIG-23 (45 per regiment)

b. 2nd OMD Fighter-Bomber Division: 45 MIG-27, 45 SU-17, 45 SU-24



MOSCOW MILITARY DISTRICT

Note 1: These units belong to the Strategic Reserves and may be deployed to any Front

Note 2: There are 12 Category D mobilization divisions scattered throughout the USSR that are not included in the OOB that would be part of the Strategic Reserves. These divisions are equipped with the oldest versions of equipment, using MTLB's and BTR-152's in lieu of BMP's and BTR-60's. It would take at least 6 months to mobilize these divisions.

1. Moscow Military District HQ - Moscow, Russia:

2. 1st Guards Army - Moscow, Russia:

a. 4th Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Nara-Fominsk, Russia: see TO&E #5 with latest equipment

b. 2nd (Taman) Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat A) - Alabino, Russia: see TO&E #4 with latest equipment

c. 4th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat A) - Tambov, Russia: see TO&E #4 with latest equipment

d. 7th Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat A) - Kalinin, Russia: see TO&E #4 with latest equipment

e. 1st GA assets: see TO&E #2

3. 2nd Guards Army - Kursk, Russia:

a. 5th Guards Tank Division (Cat B) - Gorki, Russia: see TO&E #5

b. 13th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Kovrov, Russia: see TO&E #4

c. 32nd Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Kursk, Russia: see TO&E #4

d. 53rd Guards Motorized Rifle Division (Cat A) - Voronez, Russia: see TO&E #4

e. 2nd GA assets: see TO&E #2

4. 106th Guards Airborne Division (Cat A) - Tula, Russia: see TO&E #6

5. 1st Guards Artillery Division (Cat A) - Kalinin, Russia: see TO&E #7

6. 4th Guards Artillery Division (Cat B) - Skopin, Russia: see TO&E #7

MMD Air Forces

1. Moscow Air Corps - Moscow, Russia:

a. 1st Moscow Fighter Division: 90 MIG-29, 45 SU-27

b. 2nd Moscow Fighter-Bomber Division: 45 MIG-27, 45 SU-25, 45 SU-17

2. Long Range Aviation:

a. 1st Strategic Bomber Division: 4 Regiments with 180 TU-28 (45 per regiment), 1 squadron 15 TU-160

b. 2nd Strategic Bomber Division: 3 Regiments with 150 TU-16 (50 per regiment)

c. 3rd Strategic Bomber Division: 3 Regiments 120 TU-22 (40 per regiment)

d. 4th Strategic Bomber Division: 4 Regiments 160 TU-95 (40 per regiment)



VOLGA MILITARY DISTRICT

Note 1: These units belong to the Strategic Reserves and may be deployed to any Front

Note 2: This MD was combined with the Urals MD in 1989

1. 9th Combined Arms Army (CAA) - Kujbysev (Samara), Russia:

a. 10th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Totskoye, Russia: see TO&E #4

b. 43rd Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Kujbysev, Russia: see TO&E #4

c. 67th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) -Syzran, Russia: see TO&E #4

d. 96th Motorized Rifle Division (Cat C) - Kazan, Russia: see TO&E #4

e. 9th CAA assets: see TO&E #2

2. 25th Artillery Division (Cat A) - Totskoye, Russia: see TO&E #7

[cut]

Wow,this is getting kind of old.First all,i think some of the europeans here speak from both sides of their mouths.I am a migrant to the US and yes i dont always agree with all the things the US govt does but as you all must have been told before, there is a difference between a governemnt and its people.America is for americans,if you Europeans dont like it then mind your businees.Dont you guys have governments you can moan about?This "america is evil" thing is getting really old.I am frankly disappointed in some forum memebers who i had so much respect for, stooping so low to tap this "hate" vine.I wonder why guys like XASA and Trigger are even wasting their time answering these posts?

where did you move to the US from?

[Red]

Wow,this is getting kind of old.First all,i think some of the europeans here speak from both sides of their mouths.I am a migrant to the US and yes i dont always agree with all the things the US govt does but as you all must have been told before, there is a difference between a governemnt and its people.America is for americans,if you Europeans dont like it then mind your businees.Dont you guys have governments you can moan about?This "america is evil" thing is getting really old.I am frankly disappointed in some forum memebers who i had so much respect for, stooping so low to tap this "hate" vine.I wonder why guys like XASA and Trigger are even wasting their time answering these posts?

where did you move to the US from?
Nigeria.why?3rd world country?

[Ichhabe]

XASA said:


Admittingly, some of the Americans here are a bit more sensitive than others when it comes to being criticized; however, how would your countrymen react if they were constantly berated by foreigners?

If you can talk the talk, then you must walk the walk. Some of you sensitive Americans in here really enjoy telling us less unfortunate what a kicking ball it is to live over there and of joyfully great it is.
If others are on the opposite view. Just live with it. Afterall, it is so just great and jolly over there, that there should be no problem taking some chritisism.

I cant speak for my country men on how they would react. But it was a little fun in here some time ago when some displayed a picture of some munks burning a Norwegian flag down in Sri Lanka, and all the Norwegians that reacted on this fourum said: Cool, they burning our flag. And look how nice they look doing it.
And if some foreigners would berate (a word I never used before,..geee. Learned something new today also.) my nation, or Norwegians... Then I would of course be a little upset. But I would also think that there must be a reason. Maybe since I live in the foucus of what is being crithisised I would not see it as easy. Or I simply would not care that much to raise hell. Or just maybe smiled.

But then again: That is your damnation of being a huge powerfull country. People can just dislike you just for the heck of it. What do I know? :)


Our country is evenly split on a lot of issues including Iraq, and those differences are debated hourly on 24-hour cable news, published every day in newspapers, and will be argued for the next four months by our political parties. I might not like Bush and what he's doing, but I certainly need to put up with hearing from other nationalities on what to do about it. We vote, and whether the Republicans or Democrats win, we who disagree can continue to voice our views. That is the American way.

NEWSFLASH: It is in our interest aswell, who become your President. Cause for some strange reason, American policy has it ways of being influencial on everything around the world. Tell me that you already knew that, please.


Hearing you and others whine here about the same issues over and over again does nothing to add to the debate we are bombarded with every day.

Here again, I can only speak for myself: I have never whined.


Since some of the arguments are so naive, misinformed and based on what another European in another thread call "hate" towards America, what kind of response do you expect?

Can't see that I have come up with naive, or even misinformed arguments. And if I even thought so: I'd always put in a "correct me if I'm wrong." (Still noone has corrected me, as far as I know. ;) )


We don't expect you to lick our asses, but we would like for you to get over your inferority complex and expecting us not to respond to your insults.

When you say " you to get over your inferority complex", you of course mean all the Europeans here. Not me. Cause I cant see that I have that complex.


If you don't like it, why do so many of you spend so much time on a predominately American forum, where the views are strongly pro-American regardless of our personal differences. Weird.

Because I friggin like it here.
I have a genuine interest in any army around the world.
I like the photos in here.
I like to debate.
I like to see other peoples opinions wherever they are from.
I actually care what opinion any of the forum members in here has(the ones that aren't psychos of course.)
Even the opinion to any Australian guy, even though I might never gonna have anything with Australia to do.
Why? Because I find it intersting on other countries views, cause you can learn from that.

[cut]

Wow,this is getting kind of old.First all,i think some of the europeans here speak from both sides of their mouths.I am a migrant to the US and yes i dont always agree with all the things the US govt does but as you all must have been told before, there is a difference between a governemnt and its people.America is for americans,if you Europeans dont like it then mind your businees.Dont you guys have governments you can moan about?This "america is evil" thing is getting really old.I am frankly disappointed in some forum memebers who i had so much respect for, stooping so low to tap this "hate" vine.I wonder why guys like XASA and Trigger are even wasting their time answering these posts?

where did you move to the US from?
Nigeria.why?3rd world country?

When you were still nigerian, didn't you feel like the choice of US president effected your life there? You say america is for americans, and that we should have our own governments to moan about, well, as a former nigerian I'm sure you moaned about you're own government just like everyone else, but because the US is sounequally powerful the decision and actions pull us all in.

When the French and Germans stood up, to the americans, on the war in Iraq it was a coup, it was the first time for decades European countries did their own thing. For decades the western european countries were in the american sphere of influence, just like eastern europe was in the soviet one. Europe has been devided and close irrelevent for 50 years, but now Europe is joining up again and will soon no longer has to say yes to everything the US (or the SU before the collapse). But we are not quite there yet, and getting back to the point, that is why we care about who gets elected to the US executive. Domestic policies affect americain's and at the moment foreign policies affect everyone else.

[Trigger]

XASA said:


Admittingly, some of the Americans here are a bit more sensitive than others when it comes to being criticized; however, how would your countrymen react if they were constantly berated by foreigners?

If you can talk the talk, then you must walk the walk. Some of you sensitive Americans in here really enjoy telling us less unfortunate what a kicking ball it is to live over there and of joyfully great it is.
If others are on the opposite view. Just live with it. Afterall, it is so just great and jolly over there, that there should be no problem taking some chritisism. some? The correct word is 'CONSTANT'.

NEWSFLASH: It is in our interest aswell, who become your President. Cause for some strange reason, American policy has it ways of being influencial on everything around the world. Tell me that you already knew that, please. No kidding. You still have no say in our election matters. Leave it to us to decide.


If you don't like it, why do so many of you spend so much time on a predominately American forum, where the views are strongly pro-American regardless of our personal differences. Weird.

Because I friggin like it here.
I have a genuine interest in any army around the world.
I like the photos in here.
I like to debate.
I like to see other peoples opinions wherever they are from.
I actually care what opinion any of the forum members in here has(the ones that aren't psychos of course.)
Even the opinion to any Australian guy, even though I might never gonna have anything with Australia to do.
Why? Because I find it intersting on other countries views, cause you can learn from that. Have you learned yet that we're sick of the CONSTANT bashing? Because that's what we keep saying. Your interest is noted. Your CONSTANT criticizm is not welcome. I'm not singling you out Ichabe. I'm just using your post to make a general statement.

[Ichhabe]

Trigger said:


I'm not singling you out Ichabe. I'm just using your post to make a general statement.

Well, that is fair.


And for the record: I'm a little tired too of some of the Europeans that constantly nag about the same thing over and over and over again.
But here is a tip from me, free of charge: Just turn a blind eye to them.
There are many threads that I just ignore, just by looking at whom the one that just created it. Cause I know that it is likely to be a broken record that is playing there.

I also ignore some replies in some threads, just by looking at who did the reply.
Makes life so much easier. :)

[Haiw]

It's not fair... they NEVER burn our flag. :( It's always that damn stars and stripes that gets burned... why not our flag for once? :(

[Kitsune]

@IDFM2013 and duck:

I am sorry but you seem to believe, that Europe had no defense forces of their own.
Back in the eighties the West German armed forces were 550.000 soldiers strong, far more than the soldiers the US had in Europe. Back Germany spent 4,5% of its GDP for defense, in the case of an Warsaw Pact attack Bundeswehr would have been enlarged to more than one million soldiers. duck can list up NATO forces of the eighties to show it.
Whats more: in contrast to other nations Bundeswehr could not be used to further Germanies national interests, its only function was to defend Westerneurope. In case of war it was to be placed under the command of NATOs Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR), who was (and is) ALWAYS an American General. So in a sense W.Germany had no army of its own. Its true: WWIII would most probably have been fought on German soil (after been started in Washington or Moscow) and West German troops would have been the majority of NATOS conventional forces...commanded by an American. They would have to fight against Warsaw Pact forces with East Germans among them (commanded by an Russian General).
We Germans had conscription time of 18 months length long after Americans and British had decided not to burden their population with this any more, Germany always provided ample financial support for NATO, we paid for the American troops stationed on German soil, too.

Americas status of western dominance was created through the victory over Germany, they took their spoils after the war and did not exactly lived in squalor and misery because of it, even with their marshall plan. I will not dismiss the importance of American protection, especially the US nuclear weapons were necessary, since Germany is not allowed to have any. But we for our part carried a large part of the burden of defense for the democratic world.

As a result I do not hink that we owe eternal gratefulness to the USA, so that we are not allowed to critisize them or refuse service. We have the right, and we should do so. Period.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Man I really don't like that new PM of yours. I say down with Paul Martin and his liberal dove's worldwide syrup conspiracy.

[Red]

Wow,this is getting kind of old.First all,i think some of the europeans here speak from both sides of their mouths.I am a migrant to the US and yes i dont always agree with all the things the US govt does but as you all must have been told before, there is a difference between a governemnt and its people.America is for americans,if you Europeans dont like it then mind your businees.Dont you guys have governments you can moan about?This "america is evil" thing is getting really old.I am frankly disappointed in some forum memebers who i had so much respect for, stooping so low to tap this "hate" vine.I wonder why guys like XASA and Trigger are even wasting their time answering these posts?

where did you move to the US from?
Nigeria.why?3rd world country?

When you were still nigerian, didn't you feel like the choice of US president effected your life there? You say america is for americans, and that we should have our own governments to moan about, well, as a former nigerian I'm sure you moaned about you're own government just like everyone else, but because the US is sounequally powerful the decision and actions pull us all in.

When the French and Germans stood up, to the americans, on the war in Iraq it was a coup, it was the first time for decades European countries did their own thing. For decades the western european countries were in the american sphere of influence, just like eastern europe was in the soviet one. Europe has been devided and close irrelevent for 50 years, but now Europe is joining up again and will soon no longer has to say yes to everything the US (or the SU before the collapse). But we are not quite there yet, and getting back to the point, that is why we care about who gets elected to the US executive. Domestic policies affect americain's and at the moment foreign policies affect everyone else.
I agree that the policy of the US affected me but i never went up to Americans moaning about their govt,even though the decision of the US govt affects us all it is still not our country.My point is that there is a difference between the govt and the people,if you have a problem with govt policy then go to www.whitehouse.gov The americans on this board dont control policy,they dont dictate policy to the govt so dont give them a hard time.Cut you are a good guy but dont let your objectivity be swayed.

[IDFM203]

btw its IDFM203 ;)


@IDFM2013 and duck:

I am sorry but you seem to believe, that Europe had no defense forces of their own. Nope right of the bat you have already clearly misunderstood what I have said.

I said that due to the U.S. forces in YOUR nations defending YOUR nations from communism and the USSR etc. and the U.S. spending billions of its own dollars, where all that allowed you to NOT spend as much as you would have needed to of the astronomical amount of money that it would take for you to spend on your own defense if the U.S. weren’t there.

Now did you have a military? Yes of course, but it was on a small scale and you spent a fraction of the amount of money that you would have had to spend on your defense if it were not for the U.S. defending your nations and having its soldiers willing to shed blood for defense of your nations.


Americas status of western dominance was created through the victory over Germany, they took their spoils after the war and did not exactly lived in squalor and misery because of it, even with their marshall plan. I don’t know what to make of that statement.

I mean perhaps you can tell me how the marshal plan was taking your spoils.

Also perhaps you an tell me of anywhere in history before where after a defeated enemy was brought back with the huge help of its foe that defeated it.

I will just say this….IMO if the U.S. would not have done any marshal plan and had just left Europe right after the war, the U.S. would still have had a prosperous economy, though Europe on the other hand would take much much longer to recover and well under the soviet influence, lets just say that your economies wouldn’t be a fraction of what it has become.

I will repeat my question to you since mustamato seems like he can’t answer it.

If the U.S. had left Europe right after ww2, and did not do any marshal plan, nor did it station its own troops for over fifty years, nor did it spend billions each year in the defense of Europe, which allowed Europe amongst many other benefits to not spend a lot of its own money on its own defense, and as a result the USSR took over all of Europe and communism was the sole system, would Europe be as prosperous as it has become?





As a result I do not hink that we owe eternal gratefulness to the USA, that’s for you to decide, I don’t know how long you need to be grateful or what, I mean I don’t even know if people in the U.S. are asking you to be, though I think they would like to see less ungratefulness and less animosity etc Also I do know is that Europe owes the U.S. a lot more for just ww2 which till a few posts ago, on this board all I ever heard about was what the U.S. did 60 years ago and not at all on the U.S. bases and U.S.troops and billions of dollars each year that you didn’t have to spend as a result of the U.S. doing so in YOUR defense for the past 50 or 60 years.



so that we are not allowed to critisize them or refuse service. We have the right, and we should do so. Period. You know if it was all about mere criticism of a policy or what not, I wouldn’t even have bothered to post.

No what I find, and mind you this might only be my opinion, is that even before the Iraq war, a lot in Europe were very negative and hostile to the U.S. and the rhetoric from a lot was not complimentary to say the least and it wast resticted to U.S. policy, and listen I am not even talking about Europe about not kissing ass or what not but a general ungratefulness and a utter contempt for the U.S. in a lot of Europe IMO was a major problem that was there for years and just the Iraq war was an excuse to bring out that animosity to the forefront, but mind you a animosity that was always there albeit in a more hidden and low key way.

Shalom :D

[Kitsune]

@IDFM203:

1)You severely overestimate the "hostility" in Europe against the US.

2)If the USA had not sided with the UDSSR, there would have probably no need to defend against it.

3)The US stayed in Europe for their own interests, not because they are so nice and selfless people. The idea was to defend against communism as far from home as possible: Better Germany becomes the battlefield of a possible WWIII scenario (and German civilians die) than Florida, when the Commies land from Cuba.
This idea was so ingrained into American thinking that they waged a costly war in the backward nation of Vietnam, which was of no great interest to them, not because they wanted to help the poor Vietnamese but to stop the spread of communism. Does the word "Domino Theory" ring a bell?
Germany (even W.Germany) is the third most powerful country on this planet, if it come to industrial or economic power. Not to let it fall into the hands of the Soviets was in the best interests of the US. The idea to turn Germany into a poor agrarian country was atleast discussed (Morgenthau plan), I ask myself if they would have done something like this if not for the new enmity towards the Soviet Union.

4) While without the help of the USA the European defense spendings would have to been higher, the opposite is also true: With a Europe or even a Germany controlled by the Soviets the US would have also been forced to make extra efforts to defend against this enlarged Warsaw pact. It is even remotely possibel that the US could have lost the Cold War.

5) The Marshall Plan was 17 billion Dollars help for Western Europe. Even if one takes into account that you have to multiply this by 5 to compare it with todays monetarian standards (85 billion $...Comparision: West Germany has spent more than 1000 € to rebuild East Germany so far), it hardly even covers the totally needless destruction of nearly every German city. It certainly was of help: but to present this as if they singlehandedly rebuild Europe, as some Americans do, is rubbish. This financial help was no real poblem for the US, helped to create a lot of European customers for American products (so even the US profitted in the end), helped keeping communsim at bay and makes a great justification to demand eternal thankfulness from the Europeans to this very day. Thats what I call well invested money.

6) With the "spoils" of the victor I meant the taking of virtually EVERY scientific or technological secret Germany had in the military AND the civilian field alike. The worth of those should far exceed the Marshal plan. Without it Chuck Yeager would not have flown at supersonic speed in 1949, Neil Armstrong would not have walked on the moon in 1969. Or read James Bamford's "Body of Secrets": At the end of the War the Germans had cracked Soviet communications to the highest level. Unfortunately to late for them. But not to late for the USA: it gave the precursor organisation of the NSA a great headstart since the Americans had neglected Soviet cyphers totally. Details are kept secret to this very day but most probably the US could listen to the highest Soviet communications until the start of the Korean war.
And by the way: Until Reunification Germany was no true souvereign nation. The victorious nations intelligence services had the right to wire tap or listen to every German, whenever they wanted. And they did. How many technological secrets were stolen during that time only God knows.

Most Germans alive today were born after the war and are therefore not responsible for it. Also most Americans alive today did not fight in Normandy, or send care parcels in 1948. There has to be line drawn somewhere.

[IDFM203]

@IDFM203:

1)You severely overestimate the "hostility" in Europe against the US. I disagree I think you underplay it.

And let me clarify, when I say hostility perhaps I don’t mean pure hate (although that exists as well amongst many) though what I mean is a general ungratefulness and a lot a times a contempt for the U.S. that I think has been there for a few years even before the Iraq war.



2)If the USA had not sided with the UDSSR, there would have probably no need to defend against it. what? The U.S, sided with the soviets for they all had a common greater enemy, nazi Germany.

I mean of course the U.S. sided with them for it was to defeat a bigger enemy and at that time Germany was the bigger enemy and as such the old saying “an enemy of my enemy is my friend” comes into play (I hope I got that right ;) ).



3)The US stayed in Europe for their own interests, not because they are so nice and selfless people. I repeat “
I will be the first to admit that the U.S also acted out of its self interest as well (as I mentioned in the other similar thread) but it was in conjunction with a real desire to help and to keep a Europe from falling into communism which in the U.S. eyes (and rightfully so) only leads to unsuccessful economies and even perhaps brutal regimes etc etc...”

In other words of course it was out of its own interests but I believe most Americans had a genuine want and desire to help out Germany and other nations to rehabilitate and a general desire for Europe not to fall under communism in order for your own lives to be prosperous whereas falling under communism would limit any economic advancement that Europe has shown till now.



The idea was to defend against communism as far from home as possible: Yes that is true but it still doesn’t negate all the help that the U.S. gave to your nations.

I mean communism was at your doorstep so I guess the U.S. could have allowed it to sweep across Europe and then what?? As I explain a bit further I don’t think the U.S. mainland would have been threatened anyways.

The way I see it is what you said above is indeed correct but it was a two-****ged effort in where it was that desire to keep them away and also a real desire to help.

0h and The marshal plan and other things weren’t any military help to stop the soviets; it was a economic help to help your country rehabilitate.



Germany (even W.Germany) is the third most powerful country on this planet, if it come to industrial or economic power. It is highly unlikely (understatement) that Germany would have ever reached this position if the U.S. had not done any marshal plan nor if it hadn’t spent billions each year and had thousands of its own troops ready and willing to shed blood for the defense of your nation.



4) While without the help of the USA the European defense spendings would have to been higher, Understatement of the century!! ;)

Also if not for the U.S. you wouldn’t be a economic power or at least wouldnt be anywhere near where you have become.

I mean if under communism, Germany…well you know how “powerful” economically all those nations under communism turned out ;)


the opposite is also true: With a Europe or even a Germany controlled by the Soviets the US would have also been forced to make extra efforts to defend against this enlarged Warsaw pact. It is even remotely possibel that the US could have lost the Cold War. With MAD in place, how would the U.S. need to do anything else to ensure its safety of its own land borders??

The way I see it the U.S. would have still survived and later won the cold war (for the war was really more a war of ideas and ideologies and we see the U.S. won that) even without defending Europe and allowing Europe to fall under communism.


5) The Marshall Plan was 17 billion Dollars help for Western Europe. It certainly was of help: but to present this as if they singlehandedly rebuild Europe, as some Americans do, is rubbish. [/quote] First of all no one says that the U.S. singe handily rebuilt Europe, though I agree with those that say that the U.S. played a major part and I feel that if not for the U.S. Europe would have taken much much longer to rebuild and even more so if Europe had fallen under the spell of communism.



6) With the "spoils" of the victor I meant the taking of virtually EVERY scientific or technological secret Germany had in the military AND the civilian field alike. ok I got you. Well first of all a lot of them are prisoners of war…I mean they did work for the nazi war machine.

Secondly the U.S. could have taken them without any marshal plan, it wasn’t as if Germany traded them for the billions that the U.S. sent.

Hell the soviets also took some of your secrets and gees what did they give you?



And by the way: Until Reunification Germany was no true souvereign nation. The victorious nations intelligence services had the right to wire tap or listen to every German, whenever they wanted. And they did. How many technological secrets were stolen during that time only God knows. Belive me even if you were a soveriegn nation this would still have gone on.

Hell even now all nations spy on each other and have the ability to listen into every conversation and wire tap and etc….

So again believe me the U.S. didn’t need any marshal plan nor any troops nor any bases to defend you in order to do what most spy agencies the world over do to EVERYONE regardless of any help or no help that a nation gives.

I ask again “Also perhaps you an tell me of anywhere in history before where after a defeated enemy was brought back with the huge help of its foe that defeated it.




Most Germans alive today were born after the war and are therefore not responsible for it. Also most Americans alive today did not fight in Normandy, or send care parcels in 1948. There has to be line drawn somewhere. yes and if you notice most of my arguments focus from AFTER the war and focus on the 50 or 60 years of U.S. troops willing to shed their blood in YOUR defense to the billions each year the U.S. spends for YOUR defense when all this allowed your nations to be as prosperous as you are today.

These past fifty years all of us have lived through at one time or another and as such it is applicable to all of us.

Shalom :D

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

how would your countrymen react if they were constantly berated by foreigners?
Ask the French forum members, their country is largly berated by American forum members not that the majority of US forum members have actually thought about their reasons for attacking the french it probably just seems like a good thing to do.
Me, I love every nation and all people even the ones who get ****y now and again.:)

[cut]

how would your countrymen react if they were constantly berated by foreigners?
Ask the French forum members, their country is largly berated by American forum members not that the majority of US forum members have actually thought about their reasons for attacking the french it probably just seems like a good thing to do.
Me, I love every nation and all people even the ones who get ****y now and again.:)

well said, especially the last part. There isn't a single country I dislike in the world. I even like the US. ;)

[gaz]

Most Canadians share Europeans' distaste for US President George W. Bush (news - web sites) and his foreign policy, but find American food easier to swallow, a poll said.

I'm European and generally like America and Americans but hate McDonalds with a fiery passion. I must be mixed up or something.

[Maine Finn]

Most Canadians share Europeans' distaste for US President George W. Bush (news - web sites) and his foreign policy, but find American food easier to swallow, a poll said.

I'm European and generally like America and Americans but hate McDonalds with a fiery passion. I must be mixed up or something.

No, you're not. That place uses so much salt and grease that it frightens me. I don't eat there anymore.

[Mark_Aspen]

What if we just served George Bush up as a meal? We can conclude that Europeans and over 1/2 of all Americans who voted in 2000 wouldn't choose him for a main course.

If Europeans are supposed to be eternally grateful to the US for saving their collective bacon 60 years ago, where's the US gratitude for the Poles, Germns and French who fought with them against the English? If 1 or 2 Pulaski Day parades are adequate thanks, then I guess a yearly parade with a float in Luxembourg, maybe on US Thanksgiving, is a good trade.

[Fintin]

just to point you a little detail...we wernt really americans yet back then...we were part of englined...and another part....most of those people from other countries that fought in the revolution stayed and made the US thier home

[Jack Mehoff]

What if we just served George Bush up as a meal? We can conclude that Europeans and over 1/2 of all Americans who voted in 2000 wouldn't choose him for a main course.

If Europeans are supposed to be eternally grateful to the US for saving their collective bacon 60 years ago, where's the US gratitude for the Poles, Germns and French who fought with them against the English? If 1 or 2 Pulaski Day parades are adequate thanks, then I guess a yearly parade with a float in Luxembourg, maybe on US Thanksgiving, is a good trade.

I'm not sure what you are trying to insinuate but America was a young immigrant nation in 1776.

Using your own logic, we should thank China, Japan, Canada, Mexico, Vietnam, Brazil, Poland, Nigeria, South Africa, Russia, South Korea, Chile, etc. because there are a lot of immigrants from those country currently serving in U.S. armed forces. :roll:

[Mark_Aspen]

Agreed. I was disagreeing with the point that Europeans are supposed to be saying Thank You to America every night before they go to sleep.

[IDFM203]

Ok its clear that you haven’t read this thread for if you have you wouldt resort to this typical 60 years ago rhetoric as if its that is it……..

If Europeans are supposed to be eternally grateful to the US for saving their collective bacon 60 years ago, ....................and for Marshal plan that helped Europe recover much faster then if there weren’t any such plan, and for the past 60 years of the U.S. spending billions each year and having thousands of its own troops ready and willing to shed their blood for the defense of Europe, where as a result, it has allowed Europe to spend much less (understatement) of its own money on its own defense and the U.S protection has also made sure that Europe never fell under the grasp of communism and the soviet union, where if it would have, it would have resulted in Europe being a fraction as prosperous as they have become, well yes they IMO have a lot to thank the U.S. for.

However of course they don’t need to say it all the time and hell in fact I don’t think they need to say it at all, but perhaps a cutback of the level of ungratefulness and contempt for the U.S. (even before the Iraq war) wouldn’t be too hard for a lot in Europe to finnaly do...wouldn’t you think so?

Shalom :D

[ronin2172]

funny how they hate our food yet Mcdonalds makes hundreds of millions of dollars a year in Europe. Funny how they hate our movies yet ones that flop over here more than make a profit overseas (waterworld anyone? It did even even break even in the US box office yet it turned a healthy profit in overseas distribution). The french slam our culture yet they rever jerry lewis? The germans think Davisd hasselhoff is a mucial god. Baywatch is the most successful syndicated show in TV history yet it is nothing but T&A wrapped around insipid plots (not necessarrily a bad thing). The hypocricy is absolutely frickin stunning!LOL

I'm not anti european, just tired of them slamming us at every opportunity (you'd think all americans are beer swilling, shot gun toting rednecks, omly some of us...LOL), yet they gobble up what we produce at a stunning rate. Get off your high horse please.

[ArmedPacifist]

No offence Evan, but most Americans care 0% about the opinions of other countries at this point.

That may just be the problem