View Full Version : Pakistan Throws in the Towel
Pakistan Throws in the Towel
September 05, 2006 1:04 PM
Gretchen Peters and Habibullah Khan Report:
The Pakistani military will no longer operate in the area where Osama bin Laden and other top al Qaeda operatives are believed to be hiding, according to terms of what the Pakistan government calls a "peace deal," signed today with militant tribal groups allied to the Taliban and al Qaeda.
It is a stunning setback for U.S. efforts to root out al Qaeda and Taliban strongholds.
The agreement, signed in the North Waziristan district of Pakistan's volatile tribal belt, calls for the military to return to its barracks and for the insurgents to stop launching attacks on Pakistani troops.
"The army will pull back to its camps," spokesman Major General Shaukut Sultan told ABC News. "They will not undertake any terrorist activity. There will be no parallel government, and foreigners will leave the area."
Extremist tribal leaders in North and South Waziristan had virtually taken over in recent months. They imposed Taliban-style law in their districts, held public executions and were openly recruiting fighters for 'jihad' against U.S. troops across the border in Afghanistan.
Though the military will not release exact figures, they also killed and injured hundreds of Pakistani soldiers in roadside bombs and suicide attacks. The ongoing military operations in the tribal belt were so unpopular here -- many accuse President Pervez Musharraf of fighting America's War on Terror with Pakistani blood -- analysts say the general had to stop the bloodshed, even if just for the meantime.
An earlier deal in 2003 dissolved after tribal militants failed to hold up their end of the bargain. Few expect this deal to hold either.
"This is just a temporary solution," says ABC News Consultant Rahimullah Yusufzai. "They want to push things under the carpet for the time being."
Witnesses in North Waziristan said tribal leaders hugged each other and fired guns to celebrate the deal, which is widely being viewed as a victory for their camp and a humiliating retreat for the Pakistan military.
Under the agreement, the Pakistan military will stop monitoring the activity of the militants, who will pledge to "live like good citizens," General Sultan said. More than 30 militant prisoners have been released, and the military will pay compensation for property destroyed during the fighting.
Analysts here are concerned the militants will step up cross border activity and see no reason they will put an end to attacks on this side of the border either.
"Is this the birth of Talibanistan?" asked an Islamabad diplomat.
link (http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/09/pakistan_throws.html)
Mastermind
09-05-2006, 05:40 PM
"Taslibanistan?" indeed, they certainly do not want a country....that would leave a target on their backs...they would much rather hide under the umbrell of a legitimate country that just leaves them alone to do as they please...this is called "anarchy"...they can now murder and mutilate legitimate Pakistani citizens at will and there is no fear of consequince. They can export their "terrorism" with no fear of international consequince...Pakistan will pay the price while the terrorists go on celebrating with immunity. This is, certainly, a major victory for the terrorists...they now have millions of innocent Pakistanis to hide behind.MM
XShipRider
09-05-2006, 09:33 PM
Yet we'll somehow sell them more F-16s and such for being such great
allies.:roll: Naturally it will be under the guise of maintaining the balance
of power in the region.
I've always said sovereigns must do what's best for themselves first,
others second. It is apparent they've decided they can't fight what
they can't find.
remo williams
09-05-2006, 09:43 PM
It is apparent they've decided they can't fight what
they can't find.
Who says they can't find them? Sounds more like they were either getting too close or weren't looking at all. Then this treaty magically is proposed and signed leaving them to continue uninhibited. Pstan has always been in a position of playing both sides of the fence. A game with equally catatstrophic consequences for Musharaff should he fail. I'm not convinced they aren't now.
tyovan
09-05-2006, 10:29 PM
Whatever happened to 'with us or against us'?
Iraq is such a huge mistake - we have so many of our resources tied down there that the situation in Afghanistan has been allowed to go to hell.
praetorian6
09-06-2006, 12:16 AM
Didn't Pstan try this in '03 and lasted like what, a day and a half?
If you play on both sides then eventually it'll come back to bite you in the ass.
LaoSexMachine
09-06-2006, 12:19 AM
Remeber that Musharaff is not popular at home. If he keeps at it, his generals will turn on him too.
praetorian6
09-06-2006, 12:44 AM
Remeber that Musharaff is not popular at home. If he keeps at it, his generals will turn on him too.
I think it's safe to say that things aren't looking good for him all the way around. I can't say that I feel too badly for him either.
remo williams
09-06-2006, 02:01 AM
I think it's safe to say that things aren't looking good for him all the way around. I can't say that I feel too badly for him either.
He got himself into it...his problem, but I see if that happens the potential for that to become everyone's problem. Especially since it's a Nuclear country. That's no good for anyone.
Would it be too far out there, if it were possible the OBL had some dealings with this latest. Would it be possible for him to be involved, if things were to take a turn for the worst for Musharaff? At which time it's always possible for him to gain access to a nuke in the political/civil confusion. It's not like he dosen't have a sizeable amount of support there. Especially if the religious heavyweights are involved. Possible,probable or not.
annihilation
09-06-2006, 07:52 AM
He got himself into it...his problem, but I see if that happens the potential for that to become everyone's problem. Especially since it's a Nuclear country. That's no good for anyone.
Would it be too far out there, if it were possible the OBL had some dealings with this latest. Would it be possible for him to be involved, if things were to take a turn for the worst for Musharaff? At which time it's always possible for him to gain access to a nuke in the political/civil confusion. It's not like he dosen't have a sizeable amount of support there. Especially if the religious heavyweights are involved. Possible,probable or not.
Scary possibility. Hopefully there is a plan in place to ensure we capture those nukes before that time comes. I'd hate to have to destroy pakistan for retribution if a nuke is used on us.
Con-man
09-06-2006, 07:53 AM
Possible I would say, of course the aftermath of the nuke going missing would be INSANE.
khukuri
09-06-2006, 08:15 AM
Sounds more like they were either getting too close or weren't looking at all.
yet you have been looking for him how long and yet failed, but when the pakis fail it suddenly means that they suddenly dont want too. theres really no apprecication for musharraf by the americans on this board. Stop blaming youre failures on others...
Hey it isnt easy dropping bombs on your own country! By the way the area has been cleared of all ar 98% of the foriegn fighters. You see that it is a part of out country and new schools and hospitals are bieng built. Dont blame us we deployed 2(32,000 men+ 15,000 paramilitaries) full divisions and lost 500+ men. How can you say that with just 10,000 you are guarding your side of te boarder. All I can say is that terrorist attacks in Waziristan have allmost finished so if no one is attacking then why should we be attacking.
And want my openion! I think that Osama is not in Afghanistan or Pakistan he's in either somalia or sudan...
And what do you ppl think that our nukes are lying in the middle of the bazar! Till date not even UN inspectors have seen our nuclear plants then how do you expect that guys who dont even know how to drive!!!! could get them and even detonate them.
Fazla
09-06-2006, 08:38 AM
yet you have been looking for him how long and yet failed, but when the pakis fail it suddenly means that they suddenly dont want too. theres really no apprecication for musharraf by the americans on this board. Stop blaming youre failures on others...
Awesome post.
annihilation
09-06-2006, 08:57 AM
yet you have been looking for him how long and yet failed, but when the pakis fail it suddenly means that they suddenly dont want too. theres really no apprecication for musharraf by the americans on this board. Stop blaming youre failures on others...
We could have captured him at tora bora......stupid surrender deadline.
I do appreciate what musharraf is doing and understand his delicate situation. But I just don't think the tribes he made the deal with are trustworthy.
We could have captured him at tora bora......stupid surrender deadline.
I do appreciate what musharraf is doing and understand his delicate situation. But I just don't think the tribes he made the deal with are trustworthy.
What do you propose we do???http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif
Rune_X2
09-06-2006, 09:22 AM
If a state is unable or unwilling to enforce sovereignty over a territory, that area by definition is no longer a part of that nation. Pakistan has no valid ground to complain should the USA, NATO or even Afghanistan chose to bomb or pour forces into the area.
annihilation
09-06-2006, 11:20 AM
What do you propose we do???http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif
Well im not a leader or fully inform of the situation as they would be so I wouldn't know. Plus its best that I don't make decisions as such considering they end up with lets just wipe the group out and call it a day.
Mastermind
09-06-2006, 03:45 PM
I don't propose they sit back and think life will all be peaches and grapes now. MM
remo williams
09-06-2006, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by khukuri http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1906496#post1906496)
yet you have been looking for him how long and yet failed, but when the pakis fail it suddenly means that they suddenly dont want too. theres really no apprecication for musharraf by the americans on this board. Stop blaming youre failures on others...
It's more an impediment than a failure at this point. Meaning things aren't going to be any easier as far as actively seeking him if he's got protection courtesy of the Pak gov't. True we haven't found him and the reasons are many, but this decision was theirs for the most part. Bottom line is that we've got to find him, and this isn't going to help any more. As far as my view of Musharaff, I see him as somone who has to play the fence as a result of his wanting to make everyone think they're happy, while he works some deal to benefit him. He put himself in that position He's got way too much to loose if he helps the US too much.
Imho, he reeks of reasonable doubt.
Or this could be a big hoax designed to draw them to a sparsely populated, remote central location.
praetorian6
09-06-2006, 05:10 PM
yet you have been looking for him how long and yet failed, but when the pakis fail it suddenly means that they suddenly dont want too. theres really no apprecication for musharraf by the americans on this board. Stop blaming youre failures on others...
Failing indicates that we tried and then gave up, we haven't given up. Although this "truce" between the government and the Taliban certainly doesn't help much. Pstan, as it appears now, seems to have given up.
I had lots of appreciation for General Pervez Musharraf. I was very impressed that he took the hard road and assisted the the West on a pretty much snap decision. I realize that it has been an unpopular decision there, and we have tried to compensate, particularly in the form of FMF. Since we resumed FMF in 2002, we have given Pstan around 821 million from then to 2005. 300 million has been requested for 2006 alone. That's just FMF, and doesn't include billions of dollars in other aid given from 2001 until now. No one is blaming Pstan for our failures, though perhaps you can see how we can be a little aggravated.
And what do you ppl think that our nukes are lying in the middle of the bazar! Till date not even UN inspectors have seen our nuclear plants then how do you expect that guys who dont even know how to drive!!!! could get them and even detonate them.
The good General took control in a bloodless coup in 1999. The idea of an organized and determined Taliban/whoever taking control in a bloody campaign may not be likely, but then again Pstan just handed them a major victory already.
What do you propose we do???
I don't have any idea what is the best policy for your country, but handing over large chunks of it to militants doesn't seem like the best idea. Especially considering you have already tried making "truces" with them once, and we all know how that worked out.
Atlantic Friend
09-06-2006, 05:16 PM
Whatever happened to 'with us or against us'?
It is still in force. Pakistan is NOT with us, and has never been when it comes to the Taliban.
You may remember it was the Pakistani intelligence which "created" the Taliban and set them loose in Afghanistan. Or that Pakistani scientists actively worked with North Korea and Iran to help these countries develop nuclear programs. Or that Pakistan routinely engages in terrorist acts against India.
Kilgor
09-06-2006, 06:41 PM
It is still in force. Pakistan is NOT with us, and has never been when it comes to the Taliban.
You may remember it was the Pakistani intelligence which "created" the Taliban and set them loose in Afghanistan. Or that Pakistani scientists actively worked with North Korea and Iran to help these countries develop nuclear programs. Or that Pakistan routinely engages in terrorist acts against India.
The alternative form of government is ?
Take the government down and let the real islamic nutjobs take over with access to nukes. Iran 79' over again but this time with a real issue to worry about.
No thanks.
And want my openion! I think that Osama is not in Afghanistan or Pakistan he's in either somalia or sudan...
personally i think hes in a rich saudis palace with a whole wing of the palace devoted to himself and his security complete with artificial caves and film studio. hes probably listening to his iPod petting a exotic monkey right now.
i somehow fail to see how this is devasting news for the US. in the past we always complained because pakistan never did enough to combat terrorists and then pakistan complained when we crossed thier border to handle bad guys ourselves (if they even got wind of us doing it). sure this area is big and its going to be hard tracking baddies but we also just got handed a free pass to go hunting with no reservations in pakistans back yard. no to mention the taliban idiots will flock here and many will leave pakistan and afghanistan. oh yeah, really devastating.
Nice and easy to sit in the US and talk about another country. As i said earlier it isnt a joke to have a war going on in your own country and what gave you the idea that the mil is pulling out they are just suspending combat operations. You want more help then restrain the indians in Afghanistan. Dont you get it ts like our "CUBAN CRISIS" India taking over the west as well. Pakistan will only do what is best for its OWN NATIONAL INTREST.
Finally about the US comming in then ok they will drop a bomb or two but troops on the ground HAHA! you cant even secure Kabul, when Mush was there yesterday we had to land our own 4X4's and about 2 companies of SSG.
Atlantic Friend
09-07-2006, 04:22 AM
The alternative form of government is ?
In Pakistan ? I think we'll soon see what the alternative form of government could be - Musharraf is only Prez for life, after all. And I don't think we'll like post-Musharraf one little bit either. But then again, there's not much to love in Musharraf's Pakistan either.
Take the government down and let the real islamic nutjobs take over with access to nukes. Iran 79' over again but this time with a real issue to worry about.
Issue which is, IMHO, ineluctable. The writing is already on the wall, and to keep with some biblical quotes Pakistan will be like ancient Egypt, a broken cane which pierces the hand of whoever relies on it. It has nukes, it has missiles, it is already engaged into nuclear proliferation, and now it has brand new shiny F-16s to deliver its gravitational A-bombs.
No thanks.
We just do not have the choice here. Look at the growing gap between Musharraf, posing as an ally of the West, his intelligence services, who'd like to dominate Afghanistan through the Taliban again, and a seizable portion of the Pakistani people, who celebrated every Al-Qaida attack by dancing in the streets. How many bombs and assassinations attempts did Musharraf survive ? He has to get lucky every time, his adversaries only have to be lucky once. Same goes for Egypt when Mubarrak dies.
Nice and easy to sit in the US and talk about another country. As i said earlier it isnt a joke to have a war going on in your own country and what gave you the idea that the mil is pulling out they are just suspending combat operations. You want more help then restrain the indians in Afghanistan. Dont you get it ts like our "CUBAN CRISIS" India taking over the west as well. Pakistan will only do what is best for its OWN NATIONAL INTREST.
Finally about the US comming in then ok they will drop a bomb or two but troops on the ground HAHA! you cant even secure Kabul, when Mush was there yesterday we had to land our own 4X4's and about 2 companies of SSG.
midnight comedy at its best...huh?
midnight comedy at its best...huh?
Afghanistan--US forces---- primetime comedyhttp://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif
Afghanistan--US forces---- primetime comedyhttp://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/icons/icon12.gif
eeerrrr....no...its what you said is BLUE SKY.
Durandal
09-07-2006, 09:21 AM
Nice and easy to sit in the US and talk about another country. As i said earlier it isnt a joke to have a war going on in your own country and what gave you the idea that the mil is pulling out they are just suspending combat operations. You want more help then restrain the indians in Afghanistan. Dont you get it ts like our "CUBAN CRISIS" India taking over the west as well. Pakistan will only do what is best for its OWN NATIONAL INTREST.
Damn, everywhere I look on this forum its filled with nationalism BS.
Indians in Afghanistan? WTF!!?
Just stop talking.
Damn, everywhere I look on this forum its filled with nationalism BS.
Indians in Afghanistan? WTF!!?
Just stop talking.
Just see the number of counslates they have in Afg. ALOT!
Less then the number of Taliban you let through your border........
Almost all of the high profilers were caught by us but still there is just no pleasing you guys. Too bad you wont be getting any more of em.....
The high profilers are just figure heads. Like in the days when the Taliban were fighting the Soviets. No leadership or command structures to decapitate hence the 'foot soldiers' can continue their missions autonomously. They know what they are required to do. No need for pep talks or explicit instructions. The problem is that that area has always been difficult to police. Read the first couple of chapters of Trevor Fishlock's 'Cobra Road' for a good first hand account of the area and the people.
Anyway turning a blind eye to what is happening in your own country albeit in an 'autonomous region' is NOT the way to show your support for the war against terror/extremeism/etc
well we are tired of showing support but after 700 lost soldiers and still no gratitude..... hope you get the point that the street sentiment starts to shift after there is no show of support for us and mush has to move with the street cause hes no mubarak or Abdullah or ahmedinijad.
Durandal
09-08-2006, 09:12 AM
well we are tired of showing support but after 700 lost soldiers and still no gratitude..... hope you get the point that the street sentiment starts to shift after there is no show of support for us and mush has to move with the street cause hes no mubarak or Abdullah or ahmedinijad.
No gratitude?
I think 1 billion in federal aid to your country post earthquake with another similar amount from NGOs, plus all the military aid and cash we have sent would be enough.
You are simply proof that no matter what you do, some folks are greedy SOBs.
Con-man
09-08-2006, 08:23 PM
I'm not taking sides with this post but from what I've heard the Pakistani's usually take a flogging whenever they try to take control of the area, which the government has never really had a presence there before anyways.
alexz
09-08-2006, 09:47 PM
he Pakistani move comes when the Talibs are taking a searious
beating in Kandahar. Some element of the Pakistani forces don't want to
see the Taliban totaly destroyed.
dedgod
09-09-2006, 01:34 AM
well we are tired of showing support but after 700 lost soldiers and still no gratitude..... hope you get the point that the street sentiment starts to shift after there is no show of support for us and mush has to move with the street cause hes no mubarak or Abdullah or ahmedinijad.
maybe you shouldnt have created the freaking taliban in the first place then.... you reap what you sow...
maybe you shouldnt have created the freaking taliban in the first place then.... you reap what you sow...
We didnt you did. You helped Zia depose Bhutto a democratically elected prime minister to create that disease to defeat the russians. As for us making peace with them in the 9tys was because they wer our neighbours and we cant afford a war from all sides(india EAST, Iran WEST, assghanistan N West and peace at ony one side NORTH China).
No gratitude?
I think 1 billion in federal aid to your country post earthquake with another similar amount from NGOs, plus all the military aid and cash we have sent would be enough.
You are simply proof that no matter what you do, some folks are greedy SOBs.
Thankyou for that MASH unit and Chinooks but 1B!! please. All the financial help is comming from Jap, KSA, UAE, Kuwait, Ger, France & turkey. Plus the mil stuff we are paying hard cash for it. Just name one mil thing you gave us in aid except for those 50 bulletproof BMW's.
Just name one mil thing you gave us in aid except for those 50 bulletproof BMW's.
http://navysite.de/dd/dd-images/dd992_9.jpg
praetorian6
09-09-2006, 05:45 AM
Just name one mil thing you gave us in aid except for those 50 bulletproof BMW's.
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/4296/harpoonasmbowfinmuseumez7.jpg
How about Boeing's AGM-84 Harpoon missles, with the latest Block II style! Only $170,000 a peice! BTW, Harpoons sale will be part of 1.5 billion US $ military aid to Pakistan. http://pakobserver.net/200606/13/news/topstories15.asp?txt=Pak%20to%20buy%20130%20more%20US%20Harpoon%20missiles
You realize, we could do this all week, right?
All the financial help is comming from Jap, KSA, UAE, Kuwait, Ger, France & turkey.
ORLY?
Are you refering to the earthquake aid where we gave you over $87.4 million http://www.usaid.gov/locations/asia_near_east/south_asia_quake/ or military aid where we gave you a BILLION PLUS since 2002 http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/wawjune2005.html#7 ?
Just curious.
socom6
09-09-2006, 09:37 AM
MG3 your attitude belies the problem with the Pakistan military. I think you are possibly a member of that country's armed forces who have been trained and use the MG3 light machine gun. Your posts reflect that of many Paki officers is it true? Which is a shame because if it is true then Pakistan's Waziristan province is now aimed at Afghanistan like a knife to its heart.:(
You are just as guilty as those thick skulled Americans on this board who dont appreciate the good work Pakistan has done getting a lot of high grade Al Qaida terrorists. You use those Americans who dont show gratitude to slag off everybody. Its YOUR ISI agency who created the Taliban, dont kid yourself as to who created them, the US already packed up Afghanistan before the Talibs arrived.
The only hope I see in this scenario is a deliberate misinformation campaign aimed at the Taliban/Al Qaida terrorists. To lull them into complacency and then strike them hard when they least expect it.
Durandal
09-09-2006, 09:40 AM
Or these...
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Aviation/Bell412EP/Bell412_001_PakistaniDefencedotcom.jpg
Not that I said anything about military aid. That's separate, I was just talking about humanitarian aid...you know, because Pakistan can't do it on its own. Military aid is just shy of a Billion...if is all tallied up.
Thus, Pakistan will have accumulated a total of $821 million in FMF support between 2002 (when FMF was resumed) and 2005. Additionally, military training funds are on the rise- from zero in 2001 to a $2 million request for 2006.[79]
That's just in FMF (Foreign Military Funding).
Of course, before 9/11 I think the Pakis got something like 2 million in military aid since they were great supporters of the Taliban, but that changed when they saw the writing on the wall. Maybe its time to remind them...
dedgod
09-09-2006, 01:39 PM
We didnt you did. You helped Zia depose Bhutto a democratically elected prime minister to create that disease to defeat the russians. As for us making peace with them in the 9tys was because they wer our neighbours and we cant afford a war from all sides(india EAST, Iran WEST, assghanistan N West and peace at ony one side NORTH China).
.
Here;s the problem with Asia..and the muslim world...every shi$$ that happens is the americans fault...and lets not forget the jews..
When will y'all learn to take resposbility for your actions?
Wasn't bhutto deposed before the russians invaded afhganistan? maybe the cia planned the russian invastion of afghanistan :)
and i'm certain you are going to blame the us for putting musharraf in power too?
Like i said, you will never take responsibiity for anything wrong that you do...
and until y'all learn to do that you never will improve...
Will depend on our aid to prop up your economy and military...
Mastermind
09-09-2006, 01:48 PM
All I know is it's all a fvcking great mess and it is very likely to get much, much worse. MM
MG3 your attitude belies the problem with the Pakistan military. I think you are possibly a member of that country's armed forces who have been trained and use the MG3 light machine gun. Your posts reflect that of many Paki officers is it true? Which is a shame because if it is true then Pakistan's Waziristan province is now aimed at Afghanistan like a knife to its heart.:(
You are just as guilty as those thick skulled Americans on this board who dont appreciate the good work Pakistan has done getting a lot of high grade Al Qaida terrorists. You use those Americans who dont show gratitude to slag off everybody. Its YOUR ISI agency who created the Taliban, dont kid yourself as to who created them, the US already packed up Afghanistan before the Talibs arrived.
The only hope I see in this scenario is a deliberate misinformation campaign aimed at the Taliban/Al Qaida terrorists. To lull them into complacency and then strike them hard when they least expect it.
Nice guess! But i am not a mg gunnerhttp://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif, carry an MP5. Thank god that we have a cooled down chilled out person here. The thing that drove me crazy and i said that stuff right/wrong was because so many of our Jawans and officers died for somebody else's war(osama and saudi arabia and USA). there was a geniuine pro USA feel in the country after the earthquake and f-16's and no sanctions but then to say that Pak gives-up http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/icons/icon8.gif you get the point. its the same as saying that the US casualties in iraq were nothing and the iraqis saying that no thanks for doing everything. Wouldn't it drive you angry?
dedgod
09-12-2006, 11:47 AM
Nice guess! But i am not a mg gunnerhttp://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif, carry an MP5. Thank god that we have a cooled down chilled out person here. The thing that drove me crazy and i said that stuff right/wrong was because so many of our Jawans and officers died for somebody else's war(osama and saudi arabia and USA). there was a geniuine pro USA feel in the country after the earthquake and f-16's and no sanctions but then to say that Pak gives-up http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/icons/icon8.gif you get the point. its the same as saying that the US casualties in iraq were nothing and the iraqis saying that no thanks for doing everything. Wouldn't it drive you angry?
MG3, it seems like the Pakistani army was unable or unwilling to curb the taliban and the tribals (after all, why would you want to fight your own people, and often people with the same idealogy as you) . And so the army is literally retreating to their barracks. The Pakistani army is making the best of a bad situation.
The stupid comment by the Paksitani spokesman, that even Osama bin Laden could live there if he was peacful (I know that's not exactly what he said, but that is what was interpreted and publiscised) sure made it look like the PA was throwing in the towel.
Surely you don't believe , that the taliban elements amongst the tribals will "live" peacefully just beccause the agreement says so..
If you can't defeat them on the battlefield , you sure as hell can't win anything at the negotiating table..
End result, terrorirsts win, PA returns to barracks. Seems like they did throw in the towel..Which is an insult to the memory of all those troops who died fighting the taliban..
Mastermind
09-12-2006, 02:51 PM
It has been my experience that things generally are not at all what the seem to be at first glance. The PA has been relentless and very helpful in the past in fighting the terrorists and rooting out their leaders.
I am more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on this.
I am encouraged by nations like Pakistan who have some really difficult internal troubles and their leaders are constantly at threat of assassination not only for themselves but also for their families...and at the same time, they extend the hand of friendship to the enemies of those who can cause them the most harm within their own country.. Pakistanis have my respect.MM
Thanks a lot mastermind for appericiating the situation. Would you like to kill fellow americans NO. Its just natural. The rest of the country is really different, women can wear western clothing in other cities and the trend is spreading to the rural areas too.
Deaddog==As for the effort it has been bloody and unrelenting but if you think nothing was achived then you are wrong. You see things on the groung are changing in a sociological way. Ppl are now thinking about education for their kids, they have allowed Cable TV, parties like the PPP and ML-quaid are taking over from the JI(fundamentlists) im talking about the recent council level elections, tribal chiefs are bieng replaced by the jirga(council). If you remove some elements by force and actively reduce poverty it performs wonders.
more are on the way in a few min
The last is an IED(explosives removed) just imagine what those pices of metal will do to a human!!
The mil is very much there they are just susprending combat ops. The two on the top were staging areas before comming down in the valley. Pak army dont just destroy and leave they capture and turn it in to an outpost.
sikh_warrior
09-18-2006, 06:03 AM
im not here to bash pakistan, cus they are our neighbours!
peace loving nation who is a frontline country fighting war on terror! musharaf is doing a very difficult balancing act within his country, with india, with china with afghanistan, with iran and with americans and its allies.
lets give three cheers for them!
well pakistan army has an old habit of throwing in the towel when it comes to a manly fight! remember their 93,000 troops surrenderd to Indian Army in war of 1971 when it was broken up and bangladesh came into existence! that was the largest number of troops giving up their arms after the WW2.
so when pakistani army made a DEAL with terrorists in the NWFP (tribal areas) along the afghanistan border, it came as no surprise to India. why? well as i told you pakistan is our neighbour and we know what our neighbour is upto! dont you guys know what you neighbour is upto???
anyway since Musharaf is no longer in control of ISI, which acts independent of central or army control, we cant blame him for all the mess, he just inherited that mess. he is still the best bet and guy for the world to take control of pakistan.
Taliban is the creation of ISI, not to fight soviets, but to take control of afghanistan after soviets left and the various factions started fighting each other. so pakistan created ISI and provided full military backing. if you guys can remember when americans attacked afghanistan, there were many ISI and Pak army officials stuck in kabul and had to be airlifted back to pakistan before americans get hold of them!
well india did helped northern alliance with everything from medical supplies,hospitals,arms and money and advisiors to fight against taliban. it would have been a different story had Masood been alive and not killed by UBL!
well a safer afghanistan is in india's benefit and thats why india is helping and supporting afghanistan in its rebuild. even the presence of india special forces in civillian clothes cannot be ruled out. and maybe lending a helping hand in Balochistan is not ruled out!!
how can a TOP nuclear scientist AQ Khan making nuclear deals with Iran, North Korea and many other coutries, not held accountable?? after such shaddy deals, the world is silent on pakistan and he is given National Pardon by mr. musharaf!!! why? cus world needs pakistan to fight the war on terror....how?? read below
all the high ranking officials of Al Qaeda were caught living in palatial villas in major cities of pakistan....karachi, quetta, peshawar and not from caves or mountains!! so do u guys think the paki army doesnt know where the OTHER high ranking guys are???
when the paki army can find baloch rebel leader Mr. Akbar Bugti in a cave in a mountainous region and take him out........why cant the paki army find and take out OTHER guys of Al Qaeda and taliban??
why didnt the paki army made a similar deal with baloch rebels???
so my dear friends on this topic, lets give a helping hand to pakistan to rebuild itself free of the mess it is in and going further into it!
cus a stable and smaller pakistani states of Sind, Punjab and Balochistan is in favour of the peace on earth and NWFP can be integrated into afghanistan.
please do have your replies to my post.
Dude if ur here to pick up other issues then move on this is not the place. By the way no body threw in the towel cause troops are not moving out and combat ops are resuming.
Absoloutely.... And I've just seen ET flying on the back of the Loch Ness Monster being chased by Elvis.
In 1971 we only surrendered because the Bengalis turned on us.
It is an achivement in its own right that pakistan still exists with india 8 times bigger in everything and controling all our water supply.
By the way Bugti was hiding with aprox 800 of his men. 800 is a pretty big number to hide and while the cave collapsed talks were going on whith the mil officials.
By the way india in Astan is a joke cause just last week the stopped the sale of all indian goods in the south and you must be dreaming if you think that china will let you in to central asia.
And AQK was is a national hero gone bad(something like robert mugabi) but if you think you are going to touch him then F** O** cause the dude is in his last days and he will be respected.
In 1971 we only surrendered because the Bengalis turned on us.
After the brave army that you are a member of went on a murdering and raping spree through the Universities of Bangladesh. You must be very proud....
After the brave army that you are a member of went on a murdering and raping spree through the Universities of Bangladesh. You must be very proud....
Not even the Bengalis believe that propoganda **** :slap: . We have accepted our mistake and let Bangladesh go cause they deserved independence. As for the average bengali is concerned they still have more good feelings for Pak than India.
brigadeotg
09-18-2006, 12:02 PM
Not even the Bengalis believe that propoganda **** :slap: . As for the average bengali is concerned they still have more good feelings for Pak than India.
Really? So you are now speaking for the Bangladeshis after having spoken on behalf of the Al Qaeda, Taliban, Baluchis, Waziris... Most Bengalis know all about your "glorious" deeds. Maybe we can have a Bangladeshi here and let him speak his mind.
We have accepted our mistake and let Bangladesh go cause they deserved independence.
Let go?:) You mean you were driven out after rape and pillage did not do the trick..
Really? So you are now speaking for the Bangladeshis after having spoken on behalf of the Al Qaeda, Taliban, Baluchis, Waziris... Most Bengalis know all about your "glorious" deeds. Maybe we can have a Bangladeshi here and let him speak his mind.
Let go?:) You mean you were driven out after rape and pillage did not do the trick..
I am not speakin for any one, by the way find me those stories that you talk about so much. If those stories are true then why is half of the Bengali army here for training. "LET GO" what i ment was we dont claim it and nor do the pakistany ppl want it back cause the ppl here understand that injustice was done in the 70elections. Why dont you say once and for all that you hate Pakistan and the broader Muslim world.
sikh_warrior
09-18-2006, 01:25 PM
MG i dont see any one agreeing with you on your comments!!!
if you let go of bangladesh, why u had as west pakistan in the first place?
if your 93000 troops left bangladesh on their own, then why did they fought a war with indian army, you guys should have left without a fight in the first place?
there was this pick of paki general exchanging sweets with this NWFP tribal leader after the peace deal was made!
why would india worry about pakistan's existence when the break up started in 1971?
dude get YOUR facts right.
brigadeotg
09-18-2006, 02:27 PM
I am not speakin for any one, by the way find me those stories that you talk about so much. If those stories are true then why is half of the Bengali army here for training. "LET GO" what i ment was we dont claim it and nor do the pakistany ppl want it back cause the ppl here understand that injustice was done in the 70elections. Why dont you say once and for all that you hate Pakistan and the broader Muslim world.
Injustice in the 70 elections?:) Hmm.. Just like a pakistani to gloss over the more serious atrocities like genocide and focus on minor, inconsequential details. As far as those stories are concerned, either you are just too daft or are living in denial. But if you insist, here are the more sordid details of your crime..err.. I meant army.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/52/089.html
http://globalwebpost.com/genocide1971/
http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html
Count ranges anywhere from 1-7 million killed.
dedgod
09-19-2006, 12:00 AM
Injustice in the 70 elections?:) Hmm.. Just like a pakistani to gloss over the more serious atrocities like genocide and focus on minor, inconsequential details. As far as those stories are concerned, either you are just too daft or are living in denial. But if you insist, here are the more sordid details of your crime..err.. I meant army.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/52/089.html
http://globalwebpost.com/genocide1971/
http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html
Count ranges anywhere from 1-7 million killed.
Paging MG3?
What ? Doesn't match the crap they taught you in the madrassas? Surprise Surprise...
Can you cite at least one reference (that's not pakistani) claiming there were no atrocities?
Various nations have committed various atrocities...pretending they didn't happen makes you look stupid...
kinda like those right wing nazis who think the holocaust never happenned...
sikh_warrior
09-19-2006, 12:36 AM
MG your country has been under military/army rule for most of the time after independence and you talk about freedom and rights!!!
take a hike and try to catch the terrorists which are running around inside your country!
Now we are Nazis. It was a civil war and they were the enemy. If it was really 3mil then the UN or the USA would have said something bit they did not. As for the killigs of intilectuals there is no disagreement that it was one of the low points. Most of the volience was carried out with the help of the bengalis. I dont know what bothers the west more a nuclear pakistan or it bieng muslim.
Now we are Nazis. It was a civil war and they were the enemy. If it was really 3mil then the UN or the USA would have said something bit they did not. As for the killigs of intilectuals there is no disagreement that it was one of the low points. Most of the volience was carried out with the help of the bengalis. I dont know what bothers the west more a nuclear pakistan or it bieng muslim.
It was not a civil war. It was genocide. The USA doesn't care how many Brown people die in conflicts as long as it's political aims are served, just like any other country really. It's a typical guilty attitude to blame the victims for your crimes. It's a bit like the NAZI's saying 'But the inmates of Aushwitz gassed themselves!'
And do you know what bother not just the West but the civilised world in general..... A Pakistan run by a religious nutcase who is not afraid to give nuclear weapons to their Jihadi friends in the middle East or use them as a first strike weapon without provocation. There are lots of Muslim countries like Jordon and Egypt that the 'West' have no problems with at all.
Heres the thing a religious nutcase can never assume power in Pak because of the lack of popularity they have at the vote. sure they are popular in some regions but them beating PML and the PPP is an impossibality. And jordan and egypt are worse tyrranies than Iran or Syria. When I last entered egypt they told us all(passengers) at the air port to not even think about Mubarak and Israel, when I was only there for holidays.
sikh_warrior
09-19-2006, 08:06 AM
well to start with Islamic pakistan with an Islamic (Nuke) Bomb! thats the problem every one has with pakistan.
MG talking about VOTES, dude when your army doesnt like anyone, they just walk in and take over and democracy just goes out of the window!
india has a "no first strike policy" with the nukes! Pakistan has NO such policy!
India didnt go on spreading or making shady nuke deals with rouge states!
You were the ones that came to the boarder in 02, but realized the futility of the situation and pulled back. No first strike policy thats great then you should have nothing to fear. By the way soon KSA will also soon have a bomb then it will be the two of us. And don't worry it will be followed by Indonesia and hopefully Malaysia. Cheers!!
sikh_warrior
09-19-2006, 08:31 AM
so ultimately you want to destroy the world with Islamic(nuke) bomb??
convert or we nuke u!!! thats what it will come to and you say islam is religion of peace!
why not try and match the economy of india? u watch indian films, hear india songs!
in 02 it was in the collective security and safety of south asia to not go to war with pakis.....cus pakis dont have a "no first strike policy"!
and the war would have taken our nation back by 50 years and loose the economy we had built in last few years, with world wide investment into india.
u still survive on AID with a begging bowl.
<<<<remember this pic all your life
your right it would have F***ed your eco but that happens to the loosers.
We survive on aid and you survive on AIDS.
sikh_warrior
09-19-2006, 08:48 AM
who would have been the looser, ppl like you and me!!!
well we do have AIDS in india and we are taking care of it. we are world's largest democracy and we have a open and free press that why you get all that data.
you guys dont even know what freedom is, when even a raped woman requires 4 witness who have seen the penetration to report to police!!!
<<<<always remember this pic!
Looks like you dond read the news. The law just got changed to no vitnesses and new crime labs from germay that test such stuff. Nice pic and are you in the mil if yes just wait 30 or so years and hopefully i might become the cheif and we can then have our own war. Woooohooo!!
first thing about attacking you dond give the enemy time to prepare. You gave us like 3 months. What happened.
sikh_warrior
09-19-2006, 10:57 AM
BJP is a pussy party, with no balls! they are a religious party and religion is not meant to be invloved in politics and running a country.
well i respect and appriciate if the rape laws have been changed, that shows the country's and community's respect towards the women.
its always nice to dream of becoming army chief and having a war with india. i have one advice for you....better become a suicide bomber and find a place in heaven among thousands of virgins as promised by your religion, then u wont have to wait for 30 years! imagine if you blow up today you can enjoy those virgins for next 30 years and beyond!
<<<<<always remember this picture
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.10 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.