Todays Polish thread: Made in HSW

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

I'm a local patriot, so I'm posting pics of military hardware produced by Huta Stalowa Wola (HSW), one of the biggest Polish military factories, located in my home town, Stalowa Wola.

Modernised BM-21 mlrs:
http://www.bulba.eu.org/mil/free/gp/bm21.jpg

http://www.bulba.eu.org/mil/free/gp/bm21(2).jpg

http://www.bulba.eu.org/mil/free/gp/bm21(4).jpg

2S1 Gvozdika sph:

http://www.bulba.eu.org/mil/free/gp/2s1(2).jpg

MT-LB
Engineers version:
http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/europe/Pologne/vehicules_legers/MTLB/TRI-D_MT-LB_Poland_004.jpg

http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/europe/Pologne/vehicules_legers/MTLB/TRI-D_MT-LB_Poland_003.jpg

http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/europe/Pologne/vehicules_legers/MTLB/TRI-D_MT-LB_Poland_002.jpg

command version:
http://www.jedsite.info/fulltrack/mike/mtlb_series/wd/bdm_unknown1-1.jpg

sapper variant ('Durian'):
http://www.jedsite.info/fulltrack/mike/mtlb_series/tri-d/trid_002dck.jpg

communications vechicle:
http://www.jedsite.info/fulltrack/mike/mtlb_series/r-137t/r137t_001.jpg

minelayer:
http://www.jedsite.info/fulltrack/mike/mtlb_series/ismn/ismn.jpg

Krab SPH:
http://www.bulba.eu.org/mil/free/gp/krab(2).jpg

http://www.bulba.eu.org/mil/free/gp/krab.jpg

LM-60 light 60mm mortar:

http://www.witu.mil.pl/wybran10.jpg

M-98 98mm mortar:

http://www.cpw.hsw.pl/images/prod_ll4foto1.jpg

[cut]

any of these in use in Iraq?

I particularly like this one:

http://www.ifrance.com/ArmyReco/europe/Pologne/vehicules_legers/MTLB/TRI-D_MT-LB_Poland_003.jpg

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

any of these in use in Iraq

Probably no. Polish units in Iraq use only light wheeled vechicles and BRDM-2 armoured cars.

[RSK]

Super nice pics!

[mustamato]

98 mm mortar?

[mack pl]

98 mm mortar?Yeah, only Poland and Slovakia have something like that ;)

[wholagun]

wow how old is some of this stuff.....

[mack pl]

wow how old is some of this stuff.....Older than You boy ;)

[wholagun]

wow how old is some of this stuff.....Older than You boy ;)

im 20 tommorow, is it older then that?

does this stuff even work still?

[fdt]

wow how old is some of this stuff.....Older than You boy ;)

im 20 tommorow, is it older then that?

does this stuff even work still?AK-47, B-52 and probably many other items are likely to be older than Your father...

[wholagun]

where is the modern stuff. I see you put up the Krab, but where is the rest.

[perdurabo]

Wholagun moust of this stuff is new only MT-LB body is "old" from 90' builded for Iraq! but never delivered. All stuff inside is top electronics:). MT-LB is the cheapest mainframe to make buildups like command vechicle recon one etc...

[Groove]

I lived in Nisko for a couple of years ( its neighbour "town") to Stalowa Wola.

Stalowa Wola = Iron Will <- in English Language. Typical Comunistic name. The city was built around the Factory HSW.

Greetings

Groove

[Piotrek]

I lived in Nisko for a couple of years ( its neighbour "town") to Stalowa Wola.

Stalowa Wola = Iron Will <- in English Language. Typical Comunistic name. The city was built around the Factory HSW.

Greetings

Groove

Quite interesting because Stalowa Wola ( I'd rather translate it as Steel Will not Iron Will) is name of housing estate which was bulid before IIww...http://www.stalowawola.pl/rysh.html

Is Żelazowa Wola (Iron Will - place where Fryderyk Chopin was born) also comunistic name??

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

wow how old is some of this stuff.....


does this stuff even work still?
:bash: :fork: :slap: :-*$

2s1 is the oldest piece of equpment that I posted. Production ended in 1989 (or 1990). Rest of them is still in production, or (like modernised BM21 or Krab) they're only prototypes.

About MTLB- perdurabo is 100% right, that vechicle is great for different 'special' buildups. The hull is old, but inside it carries most modern military electronics.

And BTW: Lowcza-3 - MTLB-based mobile air defence command post (brigade/division level)
http://www.jedsite.info/fulltrack/mike/mtlb_series/la-3/la3_001.jpg

inside:
http://www.radwar.com.pl/zoom/Image068.jpg

Please don't call this equipment 'old' :D

Almost forgot: HSW official website: http://www.cpw.hsw.pl

[Groove]

Stalowa Wola is exactly translated "Steel Will".

but in English u would call it "Iron Will" like "Ironman" for example.

Greetings

Groove

[Marmot1]

I lived in Nisko for a couple of years ( its neighbour "town") to Stalowa Wola.

Stalowa Wola = Iron Will <- in English Language. Typical Comunistic name. The city was built around the Factory HSW.

Greetings

Groove

Quite interesting because Stalowa Wola ( I'd rather translate it as Steel Will not Iron Will) is name of housing estate which was bulid before IIww...http://www.stalowawola.pl/rysh.html

Is Żelazowa Wola (Iron Will - place where Fryderyk Chopin was born) also comunistic name??
Actualy most of the town names with "Wola"(Will) come from 17-19 century like Boża Wola (God's Will) Żabia Wola (Frog's ;-) Will) they come from times when nobles/landowners created new settlerments and since they were created only by ther free will thus many of them have this Will ad-on and we have a lot of Will's in poland.

[Marmot1]

Stalowa Wola is exactly translated "Steel Will".

but in English u would call it "Iron Will" like "Ironman" for example.

Greetings

Groove
So how you would call Żelazowa Wola (Iron Will)???

Since: Iron =/= Steel

Iron is basicaly pure Ferrum (Fe) and Steel is alloy composed of (Fe, C (Carbonium), andu usually little Mg (Manganium) )

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Actually the name "Stalowa Wola" was used to honor the 'steel (or 'iron' if you want :D) will' of workers who built one of the biggest Polish factrories in just 3 years (1937-39). IIRC it's pre-war name.

[_Samez_]

http://www.radwar.com.pl/zoom/Image068.jpg

Please don't call this equipment 'old' :D



It is from command vechicle?

[wholagun]

ok so maybe its not that old.

But this thing is for sure RPG disaster waiting to happen.
Why are we still using old Hulls? We built a new one for the krab, why can't we do the same for the rest? Its not like Bumar is poor or anything.

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

It is from command vechicle?

It's from Lowcza-3 (LA-3) air defence command post

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

ok so maybe its not that old.

But this thing is for sure RPG disaster waiting to happen.
Why are we still using old Hulls? We built a new one for the krab, why can't we do the same for the rest? Its not like Bumar is poor or anything.

But Kalina (Krab) chassis in vunrealbe to RPGs too! MTLB has better class of protection than Kalina. MTLB- front=14,5mm, side=12,7; Kalina- front=12,7, side=7,62. And Kalina uses powerful tank engine, so it's very expensive in use.
Last thing- Kalina was developed as a chassis for SPHs, self propelled minelayers, and other heavy buildups, not as an light APC, like MTLB.

Generally- great-and-powerful USArmy still uses command vechicles based on old M113, so I can't understand your point :roll:

[wholagun]

ok so maybe its not that old.

But this thing is for sure RPG disaster waiting to happen.
Why are we still using old Hulls? We built a new one for the krab, why can't we do the same for the rest? Its not like Bumar is poor or anything.

But Kalina (Krab) chassis in vunrealbe to RPGs too! MTLB has better class of protection than Kalina. MTLB- front=14,5mm, side=12,7; Kalina- front=12,7, side=7,62. And Kalina uses powerful tank engine, so it's very expensive in use.
Last thing- Kalina was developed as a chassis for SPHs, self propelled minelayers, and other heavy buildups, not as an light APC, like MTLB.

Generally- great-and-powerful USArmy still uses command vechicles based on old M113, so I can't understand your point :roll:

you can't understand because you misunderstood me.. What i was refering too is how we built a new chasis Kalina for the Krab. I then asked the question why we cannot build newer chasis that are more bigger and more comfortable for the troops (like the Kalina, but not it necessarily) p-) . We are still using T72 Chasis, sure its not bad and it works, but its getting quite old and we can surely imporve on it.
If your driving a Krab down the main streets of a city then you got bigger problems then RPGs.

[fdt]

you can't understand because you misunderstood me.. What i was refering too is how we built a new chasis Kalina for the Krab. I then asked the question why we cannot build newer chasis that are more bigger and more comfortable for the troops (like the Kalina, but not it necessarily) p-) . We are still using T72 Chasis, sure its not bad and it works, but its getting quite old and we can surely imporve on it.
If your driving a Krab down the main streets of a city then you got bigger problems then RPGs. I don't get Your point either... :( Where we use T-72 chassis? On Gozdzik?..... or You mean the both Loaras? If there are Loaras You mean... pls write this.

[wholagun]

you can't understand because you misunderstood me.. What i was refering too is how we built a new chasis Kalina for the Krab. I then asked the question why we cannot build newer chasis that are more bigger and more comfortable for the troops (like the Kalina, but not it necessarily) p-) . We are still using T72 Chasis, sure its not bad and it works, but its getting quite old and we can surely imporve on it.
If your driving a Krab down the main streets of a city then you got bigger problems then RPGs. I don't get Your point either... :( Where we use T-72 chassis? On Gozdzik?..... or You mean the both Loaras? If there are Loaras You mean... pls write this.

yeah the Loars.

Also the PT 91 Chasis isn't what you'd call new either, isn't that one based on the T 72?

[fdt]

you can't understand because you misunderstood me.. What i was refering too is how we built a new chasis Kalina for the Krab. I then asked the question why we cannot build newer chasis that are more bigger and more comfortable for the troops (like the Kalina, but not it necessarily) p-) . We are still using T72 Chasis, sure its not bad and it works, but its getting quite old and we can surely imporve on it.
If your driving a Krab down the main streets of a city then you got bigger problems then RPGs. I don't get Your point either... :( Where we use T-72 chassis? On Gozdzik?..... or You mean the both Loaras? If there are Loaras You mean... pls write this.

yeah the Loars.

Also the PT 91 Chasis isn't what you'd call new either, isn't that one based on the T 72?Well, changing the T-72 chassis on PT-91 would mean designing a completely new tank... :roll: IMHO the PT-91 problem is not it's chassis... PT-91 is T-72 modernization, so don't expect miracles :) . As it comes to Loaras we will see what chassis will be finally chosen for the system... Currently utilized chassis of T-72 is not a good idea indeed (despite it was enlarged for the Loara needs).

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

you can't understand because you misunderstood me.. What i was refering too is how we built a new chasis Kalina for the Krab. I then asked the question why we cannot build newer chasis that are more bigger and more comfortable for the troops (like the Kalina, but not it necessarily) p-) . We are still using T72 Chasis, sure its not bad and it works, but its getting quite old and we can surely imporve on it.
If your driving a Krab down the main streets of a city then you got bigger problems then RPGs.

Probably I still can't get your point :oops:
MTLB has nothing to do with T-72.
We aren't building new chassis for command vechicles etc. 'cause developing new vechicle COSTS. And MTLB is quite comfortable, armoured and CHEAP vechicle. It can't be used as an APC, but is quite good support vechicle.
It's logical- you don't need to have super-mega-modern vechicle with strong armour, digital FCS, 1000hp tank engine, to use it as a sapper vechicle or command post. Only thing that counts are special (engineering, electronics) systems mounted on them.

[wholagun]

As it comes to Loaras we will see what chassis will be finally chosen for the system... Currently utilized chassis of T-72 is not a good idea indeed (despite it was enlarged for the Loara needs).

I saw a video of the Laora being tested and it was interesting to see when the vehicle was in a sudden stop and then began to move the back of the chasis was firmly planted in the ground while the front was somewhat higher then the back. I was like :cantbeli: Although it wasn't that drastic but you could tell that the chasis didn't look strong enough to bear the weaight of the engine and the Loara on top, the weight wasn't disperced enough IMHO.

I never did like the PT 91, but I'll live with it as getting new MBT would cost a **** load and we just don't have that kind of money now. I'd like to wait to and see what the else the Germans come up with, or maybe work closely with the Germans in the R&D as done on Euro fighter, and Tiger (France and Germany). Sure we maybe won't contribute as much but still its something. Im not sure this will likely happen but who knows, maybe.

I'd definetly like to see new vehcivles for engineers, C&C and Loara.
For C&C it doesn't even have to be on tracks, wheels are fine with me, but I has to be ligth and really fast. Yes I understand that the inside is all that matters and its true I agree, but the outside is what protects and get the people from point A to point B.
For engineers, I would like to see someting simaulr to the command and control something fast and light, wheeled is fine with me.
For the Loara I still want something that would be able to disperce the weight better, something abit bigger, it probably won't happen though.


We aren't building new chassis for command vechicles etc. 'cause developing new vechicle COSTS
True, it is very expensive and we probably won't see anything new for abit.


Probably I still can't get your point
MTLB has nothing to do with T-72.

lol don't worry Im really lazy when I write nad my grammer sucks. :)

[Lysander]

I saw a video of the Laora being tested and it was interesting to see when the vehicle was in a sudden stop and then began to move the back of the chasis was firmly planted in the ground while the front was somewhat higher then the back. I was like Although it wasn't that drastic but you could tell that the chasis didn't look strong enough to bear the weaight of the engine and the Loara on top, the weight wasn't disperced enough IMHO.

Maybe it isn't back heavy. Maybe the engine is so pwoerful that is was trying to do a "wheelie". :lol: That is if tracked vehicles can do "wheelies" with the lack of wheels and all. :roll:

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Aaaaahh... :D
My fauvorite Loara pic:

http://www.jedsite.info/artillery/lima/loara_series/loara-a/loaraa_001.jpg

BTW cannons are made in HSW :D

[mustamato]

What is this Loara? A German Gepard with Leo 1 chassis? By the way, the
Finnish ItPsv 90 Marksman has Polish T-55 chassis, maybe built there in this
Polish town mentioned here, maybe :P

http://www.armouredengineer.force9.co.uk/other/mm_01.jpg

http://www.armouredengineer.force9.co.uk/other/mm_03.jpg

http://www.armouredengineer.force9.co.uk/other/mm_04.jpg

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

What is this Loara? A German Gepard with Leo 1 chassis?

Nope, it's all-Polish design, but the idea is similar to Gepard. Large turret with 35mm cannons, based on T-72/PT-91 chassis. It's designed to replace polish ZSU-23-4 Shilkas, first battery should enter service in 2005.


By the way, the
Finnish ItPsv 90 Marksman has Polish T-55 chassis, maybe built there in this
Polish town mentioned here, maybe :P

Nope #2 :D , all Polish tanks are build in "BUMAR" Labedy.

[Sorbas2000]

What is this Loara? A German Gepard with Leo 1 chassis?

Nope, it's all-Polish design, but the idea is similar to Gepard. Large turret with 35mm cannons, based on T-72/PT-91 chassis. It's designed to replace polish ZSU-23-4 Shilkas, first battery should enter service in 2005.
.

As far as I know, turret is British and chassis is old ZSU-23-4 Shilka chassis. 35mm cannons are also not Polish design. Maybe it's manufactured in Poland, but electronics and turret is British designed and bought.

Please, stop this "Poland is best behind US" posts. Every second post in this forum is Polish Grom, Polish troops in..., new Polish designed High-Tech-weapons, etc. etc.

[Piotrek]

As far as I know, turret is British and chassis is old ZSU-23-4 Shilka chassis. 35mm cannons are also not Polish design. Maybe it's manufactured in Poland, but electronics and turret is British designed and bought.

Cannons are of course manufactured in Poland under licence. About electronics used in loara ther is radar - Ericsson Microwave Systems Eagle, termal cam IR SAGEM, polish cam PCO KTVD-1 and polish laser rangefinder PCO DL-1 - all those system were integrated in Poland, chassis is modernized chassis from T-72/PT-91.


Please, stop this "Poland is best behind US" posts. Every second post in this forum is Polish Grom, Polish troops in..., new Polish designed High-Tech-weapons, etc. etc.


I have no doubts that everyone on this forum will by very happy when You will start posting interesting materials about your country special forces, weapond system etc.

[HELEX]

Is the "Loara" only standalone or can it be used like the "Gepard" with Radar deactivated and controlled by a 100km range survilance Radar in network mode?

Would be usefull if they could use the same network...

[perdurabo]

As far as I know, turret is British and chassis is old ZSU-23-4 Shilka chassis. 35mm cannons are also not Polish design. Maybe it's manufactured in Poland, but electronics and turret is British designed and bought.

Cannons are of course manufactured in Poland under licence. About electronics used in loara ther is radar - Ericsson Microwave Systems Eagle, termal cam IR SAGEM, polish cam PCO KTVD-1 and polish laser rangefinder PCO DL-1 - all those system were integrated in Poland, chassis is modernized chassis from T-72/PT-91.


also first stage radar is polish from PIT
and Sorbas british turret is in Krab hovitzer from Bravehart/AS90
and chasis is polish design based on PT91 (modernized T72)
And also poland makes Biala -moderniation of russian shilka ... so you mixed few things ..... you smoke pot? rofl rofl

[perdurabo]

Is the "Loara" only standalone or can it be used like the "Gepard" with Radar deactivated and controlled by a 100km range survilance Radar in network mode?
yes of course! it works in spetial polish air defence network :) all systems are plugged in comanded from vechicles like Łowcza3 (there is application baced on container on Star truck and also smaller wersion on Honker)
Now all Polish military is beeing "networkized" main modernization works are going on our C2

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

As far as I know, turret is British and chassis is old ZSU-23-4 Shilka chassis. 35mm cannons are also not Polish design. Maybe it's manufactured in Poland, but electronics and turret is British designed and bought.

Nope. The turret was developed in PCO (or OBRUM, i don't remember :D).


Please, stop this "Poland is best behind US" posts. Every second post in this forum is Polish Grom, Polish troops in..., new Polish designed High-Tech-weapons, etc. etc.

jealous, or what? :P
This is a MilitaryPhotos forum, and our posts are straight on-topic.

[Piotrek]

According to this article ( http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/artykul.html?id_artykul=104 ) Lora is equiped with Erricson radar but it is quiet posible that ther is more then one radar mounted on OUR GREATE system (greetings Sorbas) - Loara.

[REMOV]

As far as I know, turret is British and chassis is old ZSU-23-4 Shilka chassis. 35mm cannons are also not Polish design. Maybe it's manufactured in Poland, but electronics and turret is British designed and bought.I'm afraid you're wrong. The turret is Polish, chassis has nothing in common with Shilka, test version has slightly changed T-72 chassis (below)
http://www.pancerni.to2.pl/zestplot/loara1.jpg

The new chassis is Polish made, here is one of tested versions:
http://www.pancerni.to2.pl/zestplot/loara.jpg

The 35mm KDA cannon is made under licence of Rheinmetall DeTec.

Electronic in turret is not British at all also turret is not British designed. You've mixed up PZA Loara and Krab SPA in one description!

[perdurabo]

According to this article ( http://www.polska-zbrojna.pl/artykul.html?id_artykul=104 ) Lora is equiped with Erricson radar but it is quiet posible that ther is more then one radar mounted on OUR GREATE system (greetings Sorbas) - Loara.
if you look there are two radarsone is surveliance radar from PIT(or Radwar hmmm) it checks what flys around and then Ericson comes in for targetting ... :)

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

yes of course! it works in spetial polish air defence network :) all systems are plugged in comanded from vechicles like ?owcza3 (there is application baced on container on Star truck and also smaller wersion on Honker)

Hey! And what about the greatest-and-best version of Lowcza based on MTLB??? :D

[perdurabo]

yes of course! it works in spetial polish air defence network :) all systems are plugged in comanded from vechicles like ?owcza3 (there is application baced on container on Star truck and also smaller wersion on Honker)

Hey! And what about the greatest-and-best version of Lowcza based on MTLB??? :D
hey its Lowcza3 :) (lady hunter 3 :D) i love that pic of inside :) oh an can some one put a pics of Polish radars? N22 for example?:> (maybe inside view? i know i know its top secret...:()

[HELEX]

These 35mm Guns are Killers, even effective against heavily armored Planes like Su-25 or similar.

Are these Networks compatible with each other?

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Would be usefull if they could use the same network...

Yup, Polish air defence system is compatibile with NATO systems

[perdurabo]

These 35mm Guns are Killers, even effective against heavily armored Planes like Su-25 or similar.

Are these Networks compatible?
Polish and other NATO hmm i know that main command systems have Link16 consoles... and ofcourse all polish networks will make one big network ....

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Sorry, it's almost impossible to find N22s interior pics on the net (maybe REMOV will do it :D )

But this pic is nice:
http://www.radwar.com.pl/tapety/N-22_800x600.jpg

[perdurabo]

Sorry, it's almost impossible to find N22s interior pics on the net (maybe REMOV will do it :D )

But this pic is nice:
http://www.radwar.com.pl/tapety/N-22_800x600.jpg
Well i know that NATO will build 6 long range radars and 3 of them will be N-12M from PIT anr rest 3 will be AleniaMarconni RAT-3DL...
Meybe lets start other thread about Polish radars... ? (i realy know very litle about them but as i can see we build good radars)

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Well i know that NATO will build 6 long range radars and 3 of them will be N-12M from PIT anr rest 3 will be AleniaMarconni RAT-3DL...
Meybe lets start other thread about Polish radars... ? (i realy know very litle about them but as i can see we build good radars)

I've found some info about N-12 (aka TRD-1235)

http://www.pit.edu.pl/english/images/trd-1235.jpg

http://www.pit.edu.pl/english/images/trd-1235_.gif

[wholagun]

Please, stop this "Poland is best behind US" posts. Every second post in this forum is Polish Grom, Polish troops in..., new Polish designed High-Tech-weapons, etc. etc.

hey man why all the negativity? its easy to avoid posts your not interested in. Or maybe its hard to admit and swallow the fact that a poor country like Poland can actually make some good equipment.

[mack pl]

Please, stop this "Poland is best behind US" posts. Every second post in this forum is Polish Grom, Polish troops in..., new Polish designed High-Tech-weapons, etc. etc.

hey man why all the negativity? its easy to avoid posts your not interested in. Or maybe its hard to admit and swallow the fact that a poor country like Poland can actually make some good equipment.Maybe he is just jealous ;)

[wholagun]

Please, stop this "Poland is best behind US" posts. Every second post in this forum is Polish Grom, Polish troops in..., new Polish designed High-Tech-weapons, etc. etc.

hey man why all the negativity? its easy to avoid posts your not interested in. Or maybe its hard to admit and swallow the fact that a poor country like Poland can actually make some good equipment.Maybe he is just jealous ;)

maybe he is.. He's from Spain right? or is it Italy?

[HELEX]

Sorbas... means greek.

[Seoulstriker]

hey, the poles on this forum rock! (i am one of them too, btw) :D

[Bartek_Polska1986]

Grom is the best.Only Poland.

[wholagun]

Sorbas... means greek.

I didn't know that :oops: I don't know any Greek people or anything, but I am looking forward to Athens this summer.

[HELEX]

@Seoulstriker


hey, the poles on this forum rock! (i am one of them too, btw)

Just at the point I was thinking I like poles :roll:

[HELEX]

@wholagun

Alexis Sorbas is a Person from a greek Book, written by Nikos Kasantzakis.

It doesnt mean he must be greek, but it is a good hint....

[perdurabo]

Helex what "radar" stuff do you have in your avatar?
it remindes me litle bit polish N21 ....

[HELEX]

Helex what "radar" stuff do you have in your avatar?

It is a HELEX (High Energy Laser EXperimental) on Leopard 2 Chassis. :lol:

[perdurabo]

Helex what "radar" stuff do you have in your avatar?

It is a HELEX (High Energy Laser EXperimental) on Leopard 2 Chassis. :lol:
oh so Germans DO have lassers hmmm curious
i thought they are something like that...
http://www.grunwald.olo.com.pl/albums/album01/aaa.highlight.jpg
sorry just joking :)

but is its role? etc... can you say more?:)

[HELEX]

Here is the link, I think the program is frozen because budget....

http://members.rogers.com/biglasers/continuous/helex.html

http://members.rogers.com/biglasers/continuous/images/helex.jpg


HELEX (High Energy Laser Experimental) a multi-megawatt gas dynamic CO2 laser mounted on a tracked armored vehicle (Leopard 2). Theoretical research was performed by by Diehl, Gmb in Nuremberg and MBB in Munich and commissioned by the Federal Ministry of Defense in Germany. The laser is powered by burning a liquid carried in storage containers : A common hydrocarbon fuel such as benzene (C6H6) is combined with an nitrogen compound oxidizer (N2O). After combustion, the high temperature gases are rapidly cooled by supersonic adiabatic expansion through a comb of very fine nozzles. This leads to a non-equilibrium distribution among many quantum levels of the CO2 molecule, some transitions are inverted. Energy is extracted from this population inversion by an optical resonator transverse to the flow. The 10,600 nm wavelength beam is directed by large mirrors on an adjustable scaffolding. The heat is carried away by the non-toxic waste gas via a diffuser.
The following description of HELEX is from Anderberg (1992)

GERMANY'S AIR DEFENSE LASER (HELEX)
One of the most interesting HEL weapon projects is the German air defense system called HELEX, which is an industrial joint project between Diehl, Gmb., in Nuremberg and MBB in Munich. HELEX stands for High Energy Laser Experimental. The project is still in its early stages, although the initial work started in the late 1970s. MBB together with Diehl have been commissioned by the Federal Ministry of Defense in Germany to implement and study this experimental system as a continuation of the work done previously In the following discussion, the term HELEX refers to the industrial conception of the final weapon to be delivered to combat units if the experiments are successful. The project is interesting, not only because a comparatively large amount of information has been made public so far, but also because it tries to meet a precise military requirement. Since this is not only a research program but also a very extensive development program aimed at producing a well-defined laser weapon for a future battlefield, it will be described in detail. The idealized conceptualization. is given in Fig. 5.1.
Germany has a long common border with Poland and Czechoslovakia, which were Warsaw Pact (WP) countries, and the distances from important targets inside Germany to WP air bases and missile sites were very short. The time between an airborne attack launched from the WP air bases across the border could be extremely short, lasting only minutes. Thus, Germany was very vulnerable to low-level air attacks by combat aircraft missiles and standby weapons with the capability of engaging targets automatically. However, the distances are still comparatively short, and, even though the warning time is slightly longer, this limited distance will still be a problem for Germany's air defense. The present-day German air defense is heavily dependent on ground to-air missiles, fighter planes, and sophisticated chains of radar stations which feed the command and control system with information. In spite of all the money spent so far on this very complicated air defense system, it may be insufficient to counter future threatening situations in which the other side will use an increasing amount of more and more sophisticated electronic countermeasures. Air defense laser weapons could be one way to achieve the extremely short warning and engagement times that Germany will eventually require.

The main component of the HELEX is a gas dynamic carbon dioxide laser which emits an average beam power of several megawatts over the specified mission time. To carry the laser and all of its accessories, the basic chassis from a German tank, Leopard 2, has been suggested. The supply tanks for gas, water, etc. are used for the laser fuel, while the laser itself and its coolant water are carried in the chassis. As laser weapons have a direct-line-of-sight action, it is important to position the laser beam above the tops of surrounding trees and buildings. This problem is solved by using an elevator platform to carry a focusing mirror of more than one yard in diameter along with the passive surveillance and target acquisition system. The area of coverage of the HELEX will also be greatly increased by the elevated platform, since the time between the identification of a target and the laser hit is very short, and it may be possible to engage very low flying targets that quickly appear and disappear out of the immediate field of view.

A relatively simple technical principle has been used for the HELEX. The high-energy gas dynamic laser employed does not need a heavy and complicated gas pump or flow system nor does it require sophisticated cooling. The fuel is a common hydrocarbon burned together with a nitrogen compound oxidizer, both of which can be easily carried in the liquid storage containers. The hot gas flows at supersonic velocity through a comb of very fine nozzles, expands, and is transformed into the population inversion state required to amplify the laser energy. The gas then flows at supersonic speeds through an optical resonator (mirrored cavity), where stimulated emission occurs, and the laser beam is finally created. The beam leaves transverse to the gas flow direction. The used, nontoxic gas is vented into the atmosphere through a diffuser. At the same time, the exhaust gas carries off most of the waste heat. Overall, the function of the laser is similar to that of a rocket engine.

The emitted power of the high-energy gas dynamic laser is proportional to the amount of fuel used. The research to date indicates that the dimensions of even very high energy laser equipment will remain within acceptable limits from a technical point of view. The fuel consumption per laser shot corresponds roughly to the weight of a guided missile, but the fuel consumption of future-generation systems should be lower. If these estimates are correct, an HEL weapon like the HELEX should be able to fire something like 50 laser shots with the amount of fuel (5-10 tons) carried in the tank.

The wavelength of the HELEX system may be either 9,350 or 10,600 nanometers. Most reports on the system indicate a wavelength of 10,600 nanometers. However, the shorter wavelength may be a more appropriate choice, since the larger the focusing mirror is relative to the wavelength, the smaller the focal spot and the higher the energy density will be. Obviously, the desired effect requires as high an energy density as possible.

The optics of the HELEX Must cope with the difficult task of focusing enough laser energy on the target to destroy it in the air or cause it to crash. This has to be done on the battlefield even when the atmospheric conditions are unfavorable and at a combat range of at least five to ten kilometers if the HELEX is to be cost effective within the air defense concept.

Only mirrors suitable for use at the wavelength and high power levels of this system can be used to direct and focus the beam. The use of transmission optics such as lenses is not very feasible due to their high cost and fragility, and, in any case, the HELEX Will probably damage any lenses to some extent. The reflector at the top of the elevated platform is a concave mirror with a diameter of more than one meter. To achieve a sufficient effect at the target range, compensations for atmospheric turbulence, blooming, and other disturbances to the laser beam inside and outside the system are planned with an adaptive mirror. The mirror surface can assume the required shape and the correct axial angles with the aid of numerous piezoelectric (small electronic) actuators exerting mechanical forces on the mirror back. To enable the mirrors to withstand the HEL beam, a cooling liquid flows through fine channels on the rear of the mirror. Compensation by adaptive optics may double the range possible with a rigid mirror system.

The information necessary to control the mirror surface shape is furnished by the laser beam reflected by the target; thus, the beam itself becomes a sensor element in the closed control loop by which the target is tracked. It is a difficult problem to achieve a really high precision laser beam, and it is necessary to keep a focused beam on a single location of an extensive target for a considerable time. If a target moves at the speed of sound (Mach 1) and the beam must be coupled with it for, at least, a half a second, during this time the target will move nearly 105 yards. Keeping the laser on the same spot may be done either by using the variable reflection characteristics of the target or by a procedure where the deviation of the beam center from reference marks on the target is used as the control signal. Diehl has demonstrated this procedure by means of a rotating aircraft model.

It is not only necessary to keep the beam directed to the same spot on the target, but it is also a prerequisite for the HEL system that the beam can be focused correctly. Basically, the mirror at the top of the elevated platform functions just like a burning glass which concentrates the energy of the sun to such an extent that combustible material catches fire. The advantage of the coherent laser energy is that it can be focused sufficiently over distances of many kilometers to produce thermal effects at the final site. Adaptive optics can be used to focus the beam continuously, even as the target changes its position.

The HELEX will have some type of a passive surveillance and target acquisition system, such as satellite monitoring, which will probably cover the entire hemispherical air space of the protected zone and permit tracking of numerous targets simultaneously This is also the prerequisite for sequential engagement of targets by the laser weapon without any delay. The passive target acquisition makes radar surveillance and tracking unnecessary, and, as a passive surveillance system is used, it may be very difficult for an airborne attacker to find and counter the system beforehand by any electronic countermeasure activity. The HELEX will make it possible to carry out identification, threat analysis, and target selection and finally to hold the beam on the target on automatic, or, if desired, part of the sequence can involve a human operator to select target priority. However, the choice of the best or, at least, a suitable spot to hit on the target has to be done automatically to cope with the time constraints.

If the research and development of the HELEX air defense laser weapon is successful, battlefield commanders will have a powerful tool to cope with highly threatening situations. One air defense HELEX could effectively control an area against multiple low level, high-speed attackers with comparatively low operating costs. The effective range will be dependent on atmospheric conditions. Under very favorable conditions, the range against aircraft, helicopters, and missiles would be up to 6 miles; this would be reduced to 3 to 4 miles in the normally heavily polluted atmosphere over a battlefield. Due to the extremely short time for target detection, tracking, slaving, and firing, it would be possible to engage many targets in rapid succession. If one HEL weapon is defending a facility that is attacked by a squadron-sized enemy force, the laser weapon may very well shoot down all aircraft during their first attack. Reloading is simple; there is no minimum range, and different types of targets do not require the use of different types of ammunition. The main limitation of such a weapon as the HELEX is the reduction in range of the system under very poor weather conditions or when the pollution on the battlefield is extremely heavy. It is difficult to quantify these limitations, but it is obvious that the HELEX will not replace conventional gun and missile systems, not even at distances well within its range. Such HEL weapon systems will only be able to complement existing air defense systems. However, the survivability on the battlefield of a HELEX type system compared to a system dependent on radar technology will be very high, since the passive localizer will not reveal itself. Also, the mobility of a 20-40-ton tracked HELEX system will be high, and it will be possible after terminating one firing action sequence to change the location of the weapon quickly.

Many problems still must be solved before it is even possible to decide if the HELEX concept is a valid one. To date, tests have only been done in the laboratory The scaled-down experimental weapon paid for by the German Ministry of Defense will not be available until 1993 or 1994. If this weapon is a success, and if it is possible to solve all of the very difficult problems, the development of a final air defense high-energy laser weapon based on the HELEX concept may start in the mid-nineties and should be completed about ten years later. This means that theoretically such a weapon could be produced and handed over to the combat units at the beginning of 2005. Due to the technological difficulties involved in this concept, even such a distant delivery date may be overly optimistic.

Other countries have begun developmental work on possible laser weapons along similar lines. In France, several companies together with the French National Aerospace Research Agency (ONERA) are working on a HELEX-like experimental HEL weapon. There have also been some reports on a possible collaboration between France and Germany. In the United States, a similar idea is currently under investigation in the JAGUAR project.

The military specifications for the HELEX weapon are really very ambitious, and this, along with the technological difficulties, is the main reason for the high costs and the very long time necessary for research and development. It is debatable whether or not it would be more cost-effective to limit the requirements to simply damaging some very sensitive parts of the target such as sensors, canopies, and radomes and leave the actual destruction of the platform itself to conventional antiaircraft guns and missiles. This would mean that, up to 6 miles, much less energy would be required, and the sensitivity to the atmospheric conditions should be less. Such a weapon could possibly be fielded much earlier and at a significantly lower cost. Of course, there are even some limitations to this less demanding military requirement. Some of the targets are not all that dependent on their sensors, and, even if they are, it may be possible in the future to make the most crucial sensors insensitive to the effects of laser energy- Whatever the future holds for the HELEX, the fact remains that a high-energy air defense laser weapon capable of outright destruction will be expensive to develop and manufacture, and it will take many years before such a weapon can be successfully fielded. It is very possible that the whole idea will be abandoned because it simply proves technically impossible or just too expensive to implement.

[Sorbas2000]

As far as I know, turret is British and chassis is old ZSU-23-4 Shilka chassis. 35mm cannons are also not Polish design. Maybe it's manufactured in Poland, but electronics and turret is British designed and bought.

Cannons are of course manufactured in Poland under licence. About electronics used in loara ther is radar - Ericsson Microwave Systems Eagle, termal cam IR SAGEM, polish cam PCO KTVD-1 and polish laser rangefinder PCO DL-1 - all those system were integrated in Poland, chassis is modernized chassis from T-72/PT-91.


also first stage radar is polish from PIT
and Sorbas british turret is in Krab hovitzer from Bravehart/AS90
and chasis is polish design based on PT91 (modernized T72)
And also poland makes Biala -moderniation of russian shilka ... so you mixed few things ..... you smoke pot? rofl rofl

I thought this is a British Marksman turret, same as used by Finish Forces on T-55 chassis.

[tony6]

As far as I know, turret is British and chassis is old ZSU-23-4 Shilka chassis. 35mm cannons are also not Polish design. Maybe it's manufactured in Poland, but electronics and turret is British designed and bought.
Well-like my Polish riends already told You-You are completely wrong, buddy.

[tomcat1974]

What makes the Loara better than other SPAA platforms like Gepard, Marksman, modernised ZSU-23-4, Pantsir, or Tunguska.?

In those pictures looks kind of heavy compared with the Gepard

[mack pl]

What makes the Loara better than other SPAA platforms like Gepard, Marksman, modernised ZSU-23-4, Pantsir, or Tunguska.?

In those pictures looks kind of heavy compared with the GepardLoara is new and polish ;)

[tomcat1974]

Loara is new and polish ;)

This doesn't mean nothing :) unless you start selling it abroad witch will come in direct colision with other bigger weapons saller.

[perdurabo]

What makes the Loara better than other SPAA platforms like Gepard, Marksman, modernised ZSU-23-4, Pantsir, or Tunguska.?

In those pictures looks kind of heavy compared with the Gepard
it has better range than shilka. (well everything is better in LoaraA)
it has better radars, optics and all electronic stuff than gepard (but both has the same guns KDA from Orleikon)
And from Pancir has big problems because its artillery+rockets because optimal platform for guns has to be hevy so it moves slow and platform for rockets has to move sometimes very fast to target...(not to mention better optics and electronics and guns...)
from Tunguska i supose that better guns better electronic and optics....

[Marmot1]

What makes the Loara better than other SPAA platforms like Gepard, Marksman, modernised ZSU-23-4, Pantsir, or Tunguska.?

In those pictures looks kind of heavy compared with the Gepard
it has better range than shilka. (well everything is better in LoaraA)
it has better radars, optics and all electronic stuff than gepard (but both has the same guns KDA from Orleikon)
And from Pancir has big problems because its artillery+rockets because optimal platform for guns has to be hevy so it moves slow and platform for rockets has to move sometimes very fast to target...(not to mention better optics and electronics and guns...)
from Tunguska i supose that better guns better electronic and optics....
And ammo... electronically programable fragmenting ammo!!