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TaurunumBoys1987
09-08-2006, 06:17 PM
Copied from Russian-Arms forum:

Russians officials' apparent refusal to join demands that Serbia and Kosovo conclude an international agreement to grant the Albanian-majority province independence by year's end, highlights a thorny issue for Moscow.

Not least because, with the advance of the European Union across Eastern Europe, Serbia is one of the few allies Moscow has left in this region and it does not want to antagonise Belgrade.

But the Kremlin is looking much further than this: it worries about the implications of accepting the principle that ethnic minorities may have the right to form breakaway states.

For seven years, it has fought Chechen rebels over this very issue: the overwhelming majority of inhabitants in this Russian province appear to favour independence, but Russia says such a breakaway can only come by mutual consent.

The Kremlin worries that if Chechnya wins the right to secede, other Caucasian republics may follow. This in turn could lead to other parts of Russia going the same way, not least Tartarstan.

Equally, Russia is presently supporting secessionist republics along its southern peripheries: Russian troops guarantee security in the ethnic Russian enclave of Trans Dnistre in Moldova, as well as in the Georgian breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

And then there is Crimea. This famous peninsular has spent almost all of its frenetic history as part of Russia, and is inhabited by Russians. But in a piece of administrative reorganisation, former Soviet premier Nikita Krushchev gave it to the then-Soviet republic of Ukraine in the 1950s.

The move was cosmetic, but caused consternation in Crimea when, in 1991, the Soviet Union broke up and its administrative republics, including Ukraine, adopted the existing administrative boundaries as their frontiers.

Russia has its key Black Sea bases in Crimea and would dearly love to see it return to Russia, but its wariness about encouraging separatism elsewhere has tempered encouragement of separatists.

There is another aspect to Russia 's lack of enthusiasm for Kosovo independence: alarmed by America 's willingness to invade Iraq, it has become a strong supporter of the powers of the UN Security Council, where it has a veto. The Kremlin is motivated by the need to buttress a collective security mechanism which it feels gives it some control over world affairs.

Hence Moscow 's insistence that one of the UN's guiding principles is observed - that which states that no frontier can be altered without the agreement of both sides.

The fact that the population of Kosovo wants to secede overwhelmingly has no bearing on this idea: for the UN to endorse Kosovo to become a new state, there must be the consent of the Serbs.

Russian officials also point out that under Yugoslavia 's original constitution, only full republics have any possibility of separating - a right most recently exercised by Montenegro in separating from Serbia. Kosovo, as a province within Serbia, was given no such right.

Legally, Russia is on strong ground, but the law is itself flawed. Some commentators compare the separation of one part of a state from another to a divorce - most famously in the so-called Velvet

Divorce that saw the Czechs and Slovaks break from each other in the 1990s.

But for the divorce analogy to be applicable, the partners must have entered into the marriage as free parties. The complaint of Albanians - and Chechens, and South Ossetians and Crimeans for that matter - is that they were never given the choice.

Russia, like other big powers, would rather ignore this point: few large states want to encourage a situation where separatists know they can gain independence from any geographical area if only they agitate hard enough.

But Russia 's position hugely complicates the search for a solution in Kosovo. It will leave Serbs knowing that, if they dig their heels in and refuse to give up what many consider their ancient spiritual home, Russia will back them - if necessary by a veto in the Security Council which would scrap an independence plan.

The reality is that a final agreement with Kosovo is unlikely any time soon. Any Serb leader who signs away this most historic part of the state knows their name will go down in infamy. Even the promise of international aid may not be enough.

Anonymosity
09-08-2006, 07:42 PM
the overwhelming majority of inhabitants in this Russian province appear to favour independence, but Russia says such a breakaway can only come by mutual consent.

What bull**** is this, overwhelming majority my ass.

GazB
09-08-2006, 10:39 PM
Any Serb leader who signs away this most historic part of the state knows their name will go down in infamy. Even the promise of international aid may not be enough.

Have the promises of aide and support if the Serbs handed over Milosovich been made good? Or were further conditions simply added to avoid ever having to make good on promises of helping to rebuild some of the damage NATO inflicted on Serbia?

cinoeye
09-08-2006, 10:59 PM
Have the promises of aide and support if the Serbs handed over Milosovich been made good? Or were further conditions simply added to avoid ever having to make good on promises of helping to rebuild some of the damage NATO inflicted on Serbia?

I can tell you about US media.
First, Serbian issues regarding Kosovo is totaly out of their radar.
And if they rearly talk about Serbia, it's always some horible story or how we protect killers. They never talk about dozens of polititians already in Hague, rapid economical recovery....
Just days ago, NPR had a peace how even moderate Serbs want Kosovo in Serbia, altough Serbia has lost the war and Milosevic is in Hague!
Point was this-Kosovo in Serbia is idea created by Milosevic!
Since I work for public media, it's not a suprise for me anymore, whne my coworkers are asking "So why did Milosevic invaded Kosovo at the first place, it's the same what Sadam did with Kuwait".
Holy ****.
It is true tha Russia and China, as a permanent members of the UN SEC CON, will vote against Kosovo independence.

GazB
09-09-2006, 07:38 AM
When NATO pushed Serbia into a corner and made them sign a peace deal they promised Independance was not an option. Now they are flip flopping like a Springfield politician... the title shouldn't be "Russia Frets over Kosovo", it should be "NATO lies again... first NATO wouldn't spread East... then NATO wouldn't add former Soviet Republics... then Kosovo will not become independant... what next?" OK possibly too long for a title... but if Albanians in Kosovo can declare an independant state, why not all the Mexicans in California, or the Pakistanis in London? All they need are numbers to get a referendum in a free democratic country...

C.MAXIMUS
09-09-2006, 09:23 AM
When NATO pushed Serbia into a corner and made them sign a peace deal they promised Independance was not an option. Now they are flip flopping like a Springfield politician... the title shouldn't be "Russia Frets over Kosovo", it should be "NATO lies again... first NATO wouldn't spread East... then NATO wouldn't add former Soviet Republics... then Kosovo will not become independant... what next?" OK possibly too long for a title... but if Albanians in Kosovo can declare an independant state, why not all the Mexicans in California, or the Pakistanis in London? All they need are numbers to get a referendum in a free democratic country...

Compare Pakistanis in London or Mexicans in California to Kosovo is a bit of a stretch dont you think ???? p-)

Kitsune
09-09-2006, 09:51 AM
Well, thing is that 90% of the population of Kosovo are of Albanian stock. Plus, the 10% Serbs are concentrated in separated areas in Northern Kosovo. The situation down there is a bit different form a neighbourhood in London which is predominantly Pakistani inhabited. Let's face one fact here: if Kosovo is forced to be treated as just a part of Serbia, governed by Serbs, there will be no peace.

As far as the Europeans are concerned, the only thing of interest is that it is quite down there. Otherwise they would not like anything better than to withdraw their troops. And I don't believe that Russia sees things very differently, at least in principle. As if Moscow really cared about this tiny region of Kosovo and had not better things to do for its soldiers than to have them stationed there.

There may be some consideratiosns that complicate the matter, though. As mentioned in the article above. Any solution of the problem that makes the Serbs whine to loudly could be seen by Russia as a loss of face. Which is especially a problem for a state that at present isn't too stable. And, as mentioned above, there is the possibility that any separatist solution could create a precedent case for various regions within the Russian Federation to separate as well.

So the trick would be to find a solution in which Kosovo becomes independent enough to satisfy the majority of its population but not independent enough to make Serbia and with it Russia lose face. Certainly, this will not be easy. But in the end, there will be no alternative. Even from the Serbian point of view every hope for a bettering of the economic situation and for prosperity lies in a good (or at least better) relationship to its European neighbours, does it not?

TaurunumBoys1987
09-09-2006, 10:18 AM
Well, thing is that 90% of the population of Kosovo are of Albanian stock. Plus, the 10% Serbs are concentrated in separated areas in Northern Kosovo. The situation down there is a bit different form a neighbourhood in London which is predominantly Pakistani inhabited. Let's face one fact here: if Kosovo is forced to be treated as just a part of Serbia, governed by Serbs, there will be no peace.

As far as the Europeans are concerned, the only thing of interest is that it is quite down there. Otherwise they would not like anything better than to withdraw their troops. And I don't believe that Russia sees things very differently, at least in principle. As if Moscow really cared about this tiny region of Kosovo and had not better things to do for its soldiers than to have them stationed there.

There may be some consideratiosns that complicate the matter, though. As mentioned in the article above. Any solution of the problem that makes the Serbs whine to loudly could be seen by Russia as a loss of face. Which is especially a problem for a state that at present isn't too stable. And, as mentioned above, there is the possibility that any separatist solution could create a precedent case for various regions within the Russian Federation to separate as well.

So the trick would be to find a solution in which Kosovo becomes independent enough to satisfy the majority of its population but not independent enough to make Serbia and with it Russia lose face. Certainly, this will not be easy. But in the end, there will be no alternative. Even from the Serbian point of view every hope for a bettering of the economic situation and for prosperity lies in a good (or at least better) relationship to its European neighbours, does it not?

The question is how did it come to this? This is something that cannot be ignored.
Also, do you realize more than 1/3 of the Albanians living in Kosovo aren't even legal citizens of this country? When they moved here during Tito's time and WW2 they never even bothered to seek citizenship or even documents of the state.

dedgod
09-09-2006, 04:05 PM
Compare Pakistanis in London or Mexicans in California to Kosovo is a bit of a stretch dont you think ???? p-)

Why ?

if youre willing to seperate a nation based on etnicity, why not on country of origin?
Better still why not on language?

You think the uS gov will agree to secede part of our country just because there is an ethnic majority somewhere... of course you could argue that they already are :-)

Our governement consistently has double standards...

Chechnya is a freedom movement, but hezbolla is not..
There are countless other examples...
we take the high road whenever things don;t affect us...
if they do, then we don't give a shi$ ..Guantanamo Bay is a fine example of that...

TaurunumBoys1987
09-09-2006, 04:07 PM
Why ?

if youre willing to seperate a nation based on etnicity, why not on country of origin?
Better still why not on language?

You think the uS gov will agree to secede part of our country just because there is an ethnic majority somewhere... of course you could argue that they already are :-)

Our governement consistently has double standards...

Chechnya is a freedom movement, but hezbolla is not..
There are countless other examples...
we take the high road whenever things don;t affect us...
if they do, then we don't give a shi$ ..Guantanamo Bay is a fine example of that...
Couldn't have said it better myself sir!

kopfjaeger
09-11-2006, 01:41 AM
I came across this site while researching a screenplay which involves Belgrade and the Balkan war. From what I have read, the White House and the Mainstream media were less than honest about what was happening there and our reasons for being there -- and particularly about the Clinton W/H ties to the Islamic UCK/KLA, Bin Laden, Al Queda, et al. From my understanding of how the war unfolded, much of the majoriity population in Kosovo are recent, and not so legal, immigrants. If this is true then it is a warning to every country suffering large-scale immigration.

I have a few questions for the members about the history of the Balkan War and Belgrade, if anyone is interested.

Thanks,

KJ

Bullterrier
09-11-2006, 12:55 PM
Russia Hints Veto Over Kosovo
RIA Novosti, Russia
2006-07-06 15:14:33
Russia for the first time hinted at a possibility to exercise its veto
rights at the UN Security Council provided that the Western countries
imposed independence for Kosovo, Belgrade's daily Politika said.
The paper says Russia presented its stands to the Contact Group
members, and had for the first time mentioned the possibility to veto a
resolution granting Kosovo independence.
Politika daily says at the Contact Group meeting, held on 30 June in
Brussels, Russian representative put on the table an unofficial
document containing four paragraphs reflecting Russia's position on
Kosovo status talks.

CyberSpec
09-11-2006, 08:14 PM
I have a few questions for the members about the history of the Balkan War and Belgrade, if anyone is interested.


Post your questions and maybe someone can answer you

cinoeye
09-11-2006, 08:20 PM
Post your questions and maybe someone can answer you

Yea, shut the questions, we are interested to help you find the anwsers:)

TaurunumBoys1987
09-11-2006, 08:29 PM
Me too I help!

GazB
09-19-2006, 05:35 AM
Let's face one fact here: if Kosovo is forced to be treated as just a part of Serbia, governed by Serbs, there will be no peace.


Could say the same about Bosnia. Bosnia is still divided ethnically and there doesn't seem to be any moves to create a multi ethnic society. Perhaps the Bosnian Serbs should also gain independance?


Even from the Serbian point of view every hope for a bettering of the economic situation and for prosperity lies in a good (or at least better) relationship to its European neighbours, does it not?

Personally I think Kosovo will become a basket case that will be a financial drain on Serbia if it remains part of Serbia or with independance will either transfer that economic drain directly to the EU, or it will be Kosovos neighbours bearing the cost in crime when the Drugs and prostitution trades are used to prop up the new state that has nothing but a high birth rate.

Having said that I think it is up to Serbia to let Kosovo go... not NATOs or the EUs role to take Kosovo away from Serbia.

Equally the Media loves to paint the Serbs as the bad guys. Peace and prosperity require investment and good will to truely flourish... that is unlikely to happen from western sources any time soon.