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GiladS
09-09-2006, 06:57 PM
Thousands gather in Tel Aviv, call for state probe into war failureshttp://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif

By Aluf Benn (aluf@haaretz.co.il) and Yuval Yoaz (yuvaly@haaretz.co.il), Haaretz Correspondent, and *******
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/images/0.gif
Tens of thousands gathered Saturday night in Rabin Square in Tel Aviv to support a call for a state investigation into the war.

Speakers at the protest were to include former education minister Yossi Sarid (Meretz) and former defense minister Moshe Arens (Likud).

Protest leader and chairman of the Movement for Quality Government in Israel Attorney Eliad Shraga said at the rally "we have gathered here in all colors of the political spectrum, from all socio-economic levels, and holding a wide range of beliefs, in order to demand the formation of an independent commission of inquiry, a professional, objective and unbiased commission."

"The corruption that brought about the collapse of departments within the government during peace-time, is the same corruption that brought about the complete paralysis of the government during the war," he said.

Moshe Arens added "never have there been such confusing and contradictory orders issued in the handling of a war."

Yossi Sarid called on Olmert, Defense Minister Amir Peretz and Israel Defense Forces Chief of Staff Dan Halutz to resign.

"If you don't go home on your own initiative, Israeli democracy will send you home," Sarid said.

The demonstration was also to include video footage from the war, and several musical performances

Meanwhile, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert will not immediately seek cabinet approval for a new composition of the panel he appointed to examine the conduct of the war in Lebanon.

The panel, headed by former Mossad chief Nahum Admoni, was expected to be submitted for approval on Sunday.

Sources in Jerusalem have suggested three causes for the delay in submitting the new panel for approval. The first is a decision by Attorney General Menachem Mazuz on Tuesday to disqualify two panel candidates due to possible conflicts of interest.

Olmert has appointed two additional candidates to replace Yedidya Ya'ari and David Ivry, but the investigation into a possible conflict of interests on the part of the new nominees has not yet been completed.

The second reason is the ongoing dispute between members of the Admoni panel and the Prime Minister's Office over the panel's range of authority. Admoni wants the panel to be able to grant immunity to individuals who would testify before it, so that their testimony would not be admissible in court. This kind of power can only be awarded by the Knesset and not the prime minister.

The third factor is the collapse of the committee appointed by Defense Minister Amir Peretz, to be headed by former IDF chief of staff Amnon Lipkin Shahak, that was intended to look into the functioning of the defense establishment during the month-long war. To date, a replacement commission has not yet been appointed, and Olmert is still deliberating on its composition.

As a result of the delay, the inquiry into the actions of local and regional officials during the war, to be carried out by the State Comptroller's Office, will also be postponed. Olmert hopes to bring all the panels before the cabinet for simultaneous approval.

On Sunday, Supreme Court justices will discuss the petition submitted by Omets, a non-profit watchdog organization, demanding the formation of a state commission of inquiry into war failures.

The State Prosecution issued an official response, saying that Omets's petition was submitted prematurely. Once the cabinet officially approves some form of inquiry, if it is not in accordance with Omets's demands, they will have to re-submit the current petition in order for their demands to be considered.

Link (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/760554.html)








TA: Protest calling for state commission of inquiry

Movement for Quality Government and Baltam forum for reservists band together to demand adequate investigation of failures in Lebanon war
Miri Chason


Almost a month after the end of the second Lebanon war, the Movement for Quality Government in Israel (MQG), in conjunction with the Baltam Forum – representing reserve soldiers – gathered in Rabin Square in Tel Aviv, under the banner 'State Commission of Inquiry Now'. Some 30,000 protestors attended.

Carrying signs reading, among others, 'What is there to hide?', 'Conscience demands inquiry' and 'State, state, state', protestors demonstrated their disapprobation of Olmert's investigative efforts thus far.

Chairman of the Baltam forum Roi Ron told Ynet: "We demand a state commission of inquiry to determine how reserve soldiers were sent to war without ammunition, without protection, without food and without water. Soldiers who hadn't trained in years."

In addition to a state commission of inquiry, Baltam demands a formal renewal of standards of training and equipage of reserve soldiers, as well as the creation of an annual training program for all reserve units.

"We demand that a commission be formed and that a reserves law be legislated to formalize these things. We want a state commission of inquiry led by a senior judge. A commission that has the necessary jurisdiction to investigate the past and the present and to act for the future," Ron added.

Singer Nimrod Lev performed the song "I became a hostage" after being asked to attend the rally by reservists from Jerusalem. Lev said, "I arrived as a resident of the north who experienced 34 days of war…I can tell you that the government's failure regarding the home front is outrageous, the north was simply abandoned by the government…It is my duty as a resident of the north to do my part to help their just struggle."


Protestors of all stripes
MQG Chairman Eliad Shraga appealed to the all of the nation to join the rally, which contained people from all sides of the political spectrum. One of the speakers at the rally was former Meretz chairman and minister Yossi Sarid. His presence, said Shraga, was an answer to "all those people (primarily from the Peace Now movement) who portrayed this protest as something orange."

Naveh Tzupkov, a Tel Aviv resident and former officer in the anti-aircraft unit, said that "it's important to investigate all of the problems exposed by this war. Problems that were always present and that everyone in the army knew about. The army is something tiny. A state commission of inquiry has the least dependence on people who took part in this war. It's not dependent on the political sources who are looking to keep their seat."

Yehuda Kahani from Tel Aviv, who lived through all of Israel's wars and the subsequent commissions of inquiry, said that voting by text message was the way to go. "I came to the rally so that people wouldn't say that everyone had stayed home because they think that Olmert was ok."

However, he understands why others didn't do the same. "People are tired of demonstrations and protests, and in my opinion, there needs to be a different way to determine the national opinion. If 'A star is born' (reality TV series) can garner a million and a half votes by text message, I'm sure that millions would vote and say what they really think."

"There won't be a state commission of inquiry. They'll drag their feet, just like they're doing now. A month has passed and what has happened? Spin after spin after spin," he concluded sadly.

Link (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3301667,00.html)




..........

C.MAXIMUS
09-09-2006, 09:19 PM
Enquires are always good... wash the dirty clothes ... make sure we are ready for the next one p-)

Appaloosa
09-10-2006, 04:38 PM
from the post i get the feeling they protest about the efficiency of Israeli military.

Any protest about the violation of humanitarian law in Lebanon?

charliepage
09-10-2006, 05:03 PM
from the post i get the feeling they protest about the efficiency of Israeli military.

Any protest about the violation of humanitarian law in Lebanon?

What about Hizbollah with things they did (such as human shields)? Or do you only blast Israel? I'll guess #2.

Mr.Flint
09-10-2006, 05:15 PM
What about Hizbollah with things they did (such as human shields)? Or do you only blast Israel? I'll guess #2.
I guess that he doesnt regard the - 1. kindapping of the soldiers 2. intentive targeting civilian population 3. using weapons that prohibited by Geneva conventions (missles packed with ball bearing) 4. Using human shields 5. the whole existance of Hizballah -
as violation of international law....

alexz
09-10-2006, 06:30 PM
Enquires are always good... wash the dirty clothes ... make sure we are ready for the next one p-)

That's exactly what the demonstration is about. Olmert wanted to appoint
a commitee of his friends and presidents of companies who are
government contractors to invesitigate him. The people are getting sick of
this curropt basterds destroyying every thing they touch.

Appaloosa
09-10-2006, 06:33 PM
What about Hizbollah with things they did (such as human shields)? Or do you only blast Israel? I'll guess #2.



You mean that all the civilians killed were used as human shields?

Appaloosa
09-10-2006, 06:34 PM
I guess that he doesnt regard the - 1. kindapping of the soldiers 2. intentive targeting civilian population 3. using weapons that prohibited by Geneva conventions (missles packed with ball bearing) 4. Using human shields 5. the whole existance of Hizballah -
as violation of international law....


Still Hezis are not terrorists according to EU.

GiladS
09-10-2006, 06:46 PM
Still Hezis are not terrorists according to EU.

The EU has no official stance on Hizb'.

Fact is that Britain and the Netherlands do consider it a terrorist organization.

Appaloosa
09-10-2006, 07:14 PM
The EU has no official stance on Hizb'.

Fact is that Britain and the Netherlands do consider it a terrorist organization.


How is this a fact? There is the official list of the Council of Europe- No Hezis there as far as i can read:

http://www.statewatch.org/news/2005/mar/06terrlists.htm

GiladS
09-10-2006, 08:07 PM
How is this a fact? There is the official list of the Council of Europe- No Hezis there as far as i can read:

http://www.statewatch.org/news/2005/mar/06terrlists.htm

I'll try and make this more clear for you.

The EU has no official stance... so naturally Hizb' wouldn't be on that list.

That doesn't mean that the EU has determined that they are some sort of justified organization.

And so it doesn't prevent individual member states of the EU to catogerise it as a terrorist organization (Britain and the Netherlands).

Hollis
09-10-2006, 08:35 PM
I'll try and make this more clear for you.

The EU has no official stance... so naturally Hizb' wouldn't be on that list.

That doesn't mean that the EU has determined that they are some sort of justified organization.

And so it doesn't prevent individual member states of the EU to catogerise it as a terrorist organization (Britain and the Netherlands).


Another one of appaloosa's website worth looking into,

http://www.statewatch.org/soseurope.htm
I wonder about, these self appointed protectors of civil liberties, when they are seemed more concerned about the civil liberties of terrorists than supplying effective tools to those fighting terrorism.

Kaplanr
09-10-2006, 09:29 PM
Another one of appaloosa's website worth looking into,

http://www.statewatch.org/soseurope.htm
I wonder about, these self appointed protectors of civil liberties, when they are seemed more concerned about the civil liberties of terrorists than supplying effective tools to those fighting terrorism.

Looked at the site - - B O R I N G!!!

inche yao?
09-11-2006, 01:29 AM
yeh...

Israel, U.S., England, Canada, Britain, Australia = The world??

by the way Maximus, your avatar is Racist.

GiladS
09-11-2006, 03:13 AM
yeh...

Israel, U.S., England, Canada, Britain, Australia = The world??


Did someone claim this?

I'm pretty sure that no.

LRPV
09-11-2006, 03:24 AM
[quote=inche yao?;1916704]yeh...

Israel, U.S., England, Canada, Britain, Australia = The world??



At least you got the important countries right:)

Appaloosa
09-11-2006, 06:37 PM
I'll try and make this more clear for you.

The EU has no official stance... so naturally Hizb' wouldn't be on that list.

That doesn't mean that the EU has determined that they are some sort of justified organization.

And so it doesn't prevent individual member states of the EU to catogerise it as a terrorist organization (Britain and the Netherlands).





What is a more official stance than the previous list published by the European council?

Where are the facts about UK and Nederlands categorise Hezis as terrorists?

C.MAXIMUS
09-11-2006, 06:49 PM
yeh...

Israel, U.S., England, Canada, Britain, Australia = The world??

by the way Maximus, your avatar is Racist.

Racist ??? hardly ... It is a lego. It was created after the Danish cartoon controversy (I am not the author) It is just to make a point. No offence to you I hope.

Mr.Flint
09-11-2006, 07:23 PM
What is a more official stance than the previous list published by the European council?

Where are the facts about UK and Nederlands categorise Hezis as terrorists?
UK: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/security/terrorism-and-the-law/terrorism-act/proscribed-groups

Netherlands:
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/netherlands/aivd2004-eng.pdf
(search for 2.2.4 )

as for EU - EU Parliament is in disagreement with the Council:

EU lawmakers label Hizbollah 'terrorist’ group

ISN SECURITY WATCH (11/03/05) - European legislators on Thursday branded the radical Lebanese Hizbollah group a “terrorist” organization and urged EU governments to place the group on their terrorist blacklists, as the bloc did with the Palestinian Hamas group in 2003.
“[EU] Parliament considers that clear evidence exists of terrorist activities by Hizbollah. The [EU] Council should take all necessary steps to curtail them," legislators said in a non-binding resolution adopted during a session in Strasburg, France on Thursday. EU lawmakers also called on Syria to withdraw its troops and intelligence services from Lebanon.
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=10923
But the council included a senior member of Hizbullah into the list
Imad Fayez Mugniyah.

and finally the UN supposedly = The World, right? The UN regards Hizbollah currently as an illegal militia due to it refusal to abide with resolution 1559 and the Taif accords (The only Lebanese group that didnt disarm after the end of the civil war),
and illegal militia = terrorists

Dean89
09-12-2006, 03:19 PM
UK: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/security/terrorism-and-the-law/terrorism-act/proscribed-groups

Netherlands:
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/netherlands/aivd2004-eng.pdf
(search for 2.2.4 )

as for EU - EU Parliament is in disagreement with the Council:
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=10923
But the council included a senior member of Hizbullah into the list
Imad Fayez Mugniyah.

and finally the UN supposedly = The World, right? The UN regards Hizbollah currently as an illegal militia due to it refusal to abide with resolution 1559 and the Taif accords (The only Lebanese group that didnt disarm after the end of the civil war),
and illegal militia = terrorists

wow you cant really get him better than that p-)

Appaloosa
09-12-2006, 04:33 PM
UK: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/security/terrorism-and-the-law/terrorism-act/proscribed-groups

Netherlands:
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/netherlands/aivd2004-eng.pdf
(search for 2.2.4 )

as for EU - EU Parliament is in disagreement with the Council:
http://www.isn.ethz.ch/news/sw/details.cfm?id=10923
But the council included a senior member of Hizbullah into the list
Imad Fayez Mugniyah.

and finally the UN supposedly = The World, right? The UN regards Hizbollah currently as an illegal militia due to it refusal to abide with resolution 1559 and the Taif accords (The only Lebanese group that didnt disarm after the end of the civil war),
and illegal militia = terrorists






First the uk link. Clearly there is a distinction between armed and political wing:


Hizballah External Security Organisation:
Hizballah is committed to armed resistance to the state of Israel itself and aims to liberate all Palestinian territories and Jerusalem from Israeli occupation. It maintains a terrorist wing, the External Security Organisation (ESO), to help it achieve this.


This means that the Lebanese parliament Hizballah elected members can drink their tea at Thames:) Also all the Political Wing members go for tea too.



Nederlands:

it' s not 2.2.4. When you clear in your mind who is the ETA and who are Hezis we can talk:) It's 2.2.3

Who is the author of the article and which are the terrorist dealings of Hezis in Neds this paper claims without any facts ? Is this all you could find in the net?



About the UN: Maby you live in another planet but do you get the feeling that before any talks about troops deployment the UN and all parties had talks with Hezis to settle how this thing goes? And btw are the UN troops are going to disarm any Hezi terrorists? Because when you deal with people you consider terrorists you either arrest them or shoot them. Or this is a new UN antiterrorist<< kiss the terrorists tactic?>>:)



try the official EU site:

http://ec.europa.eu/comm/external_relations/lebanon/intro/index.htm

4.1 Political background


Confessionalism is central to Lebanon’s political system, with a careful balance maintained between the 18 different sectarian groups in government, parliament and in the civil administration. According to the Taëf Agreement Christians and Muslims are represented on a 50:50 basis in the Parliament, the Council of Ministers as well as in all high ranking civilian and military posts. All sub-communities Alawi, Druze, Shia, Sunni within the Muslim community, and Armenian Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Maronites and Protestants within the Christian community are represented in a” proportional” manner within this overall ratio. The main political forces in Lebanon are Amal, Arab Socialist Baath Party, Hezbullah, Kataeb Party, Lebanese Communist Party, Lebanese Forces, Progressive Socialist Party, and Syrian Social Nationalist Party.

South Lebanon

The security situation in South Lebanon is fragile due to the simmering conflict at the frontier and the fact that the government has declined international appeals to deploy its army at the border, allowing Hezbullah to fill the security vacuum. The Hezbullah justifies its ‘resistance activity’ on the basis of Israeli occupation since the 1967 war of 12 square kilometres of land known as the Shebaa farms, which Israel regards as Syrian and therefore part of the occupied Golan whereas Lebanon claims that the farms are part of its territory.

They don't call them terrorists but contary they publicise the Hezis goals.

Appaloosa
09-12-2006, 04:40 PM
wow you cant really get him better than that p-)


I knew a small country in the Middle East. This country was hunting an Arab man claiming he was a big terrorist. The years passed and one day this terrorist was in White house as the president of other terrorists. But now their terrorist acts were not remembered. They enjoyed White House hospitality and having dinners with the president of the small country who previously called them terrorists. WOWp-)

Mr.Flint
09-12-2006, 05:48 PM
First the uk link. Clearly there is a distinction between armed and political wing:


Hizballah External Security Organisation:
Hizballah is committed to armed resistance to the state of Israel itself and aims to liberate all Palestinian territories and Jerusalem from Israeli occupation. It maintains a terrorist wing, the External Security Organisation (ESO), to help it achieve this.


This means that the Lebanese parliament Hizballah elected members can drink their tea at Thames:) Also all the Political Wing members go for tea too.



Nederlands:

it' s not 2.2.4. When you clear in your mind who is the ETA and who are Hezis we can talk:) It's 2.2.3

Who is the author of the article and which are the terrorist dealings of Hezis in Neds this paper claims without any facts ? Is this all you could find in the net?



About the UN: Maby you live in another planet but do you get the feeling that before any talks about troops deployment the UN and all parties had talks with Hezis to settle how this thing goes? And btw are the UN troops are going to disarm any Hezi terrorists? Because when you deal with people you consider terrorists you either arrest them or shoot them. Or this is a new UN antiterrorist<< kiss the terrorists tactic?>>:)



try the official EU site:

http://ec.europa.eu/comm/external_relations/lebanon/intro/index.htm

4.1 Political background


Confessionalism is central to Lebanon’s political system, with a careful balance maintained between the 18 different sectarian groups in government, parliament and in the civil administration. According to the Taëf Agreement Christians and Muslims are represented on a 50:50 basis in the Parliament, the Council of Ministers as well as in all high ranking civilian and military posts. All sub-communities Alawi, Druze, Shia, Sunni within the Muslim community, and Armenian Catholic, Armenian Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Maronites and Protestants within the Christian community are represented in a” proportional” manner within this overall ratio. The main political forces in Lebanon are Amal, Arab Socialist Baath Party, Hezbullah, Kataeb Party, Lebanese Communist Party, Lebanese Forces, Progressive Socialist Party, and Syrian Social Nationalist Party.

South Lebanon

The security situation in South Lebanon is fragile due to the simmering conflict at the frontier and the fact that the government has declined international appeals to deploy its army at the border, allowing Hezbullah to fill the security vacuum. The Hezbullah justifies its ‘resistance activity’ on the basis of Israeli occupation since the 1967 war of 12 square kilometres of land known as the Shebaa farms, which Israel regards as Syrian and therefore part of the occupied Golan whereas Lebanon claims that the farms are part of its territory.

They don't call them terrorists but contary they publicise the Hezis goals.
Is this is all you can do? pitifull...
Dont try to play semantics.
It hardly matters if UK separates Political part of Hizbullah from Military wing or not, - the Hizbullah folks that are attacking Israel, storing weapons and building bunkers are still terrorists from UK point of view
Yeah ive made a mistake gave the wrong number, shows your lack of counter arguments if all you can do is to point on that:bash:
as for the author how about looking at the end of pdf? is that so hard? here let me help you - its Algemene Inlichtingen-en Veiligheidsdienst (AIVD)

Whatever, the UN still demands implementation of 1559 and Taif Accords, as for not participating in the disarmament, well i find it similiar to the situation when nothing was done save the Tutsis from Hutus, the UN troops had no mandate to open fire too... sad..

You quoting and linking to EU site, do not disprove the fact that the EU Parliament considers Hizubullah a terrorist organization...
oh btw you omitted this part, i hope not on purpose?

Israeli troops withdrew from South Lebanon in May 2000. The UN ruled that UNSCR 425 had been implemented but Lebanon considered that the withdrawal of Israeli forces was incomplete as it did not include the Shebaa farms area in the South-East. Lebanon rejects the UN demarcation line as the international frontier with Israel.

as for your little story about Arafat, it wasnt claimed, he was a terrorist, (and IMHO still is, im certain he gets his butt raped often in Satan's retirement centres) but he said the magic words and became accepted...

ElHombre
09-12-2006, 06:39 PM
That's exactly what the demonstration is about. Olmert wanted to appoint
a commitee of his friends and presidents of companies who are
government contractors to invesitigate him. The people are getting sick of
this curropt basterds destroyying every thing they touch.

will/is this having any effect on your gov't? i ask as one who thinks holding one's gov't accountable for their mistakes to be a great idea.

GiladS
09-12-2006, 06:43 PM
will/is this having any effect on your gov't? i ask as one who thinks holding one's gov't accountable for their mistakes to be a great idea.

Well, like Yossi Sarid said to them in the rally:
"If you don't go home on your own initiative, Israeli democracy will send you home".

This is one of the few things he and I see eye to eye on.

Appaloosa
09-13-2006, 04:23 PM
Is this is all you can do? pitifull...
Dont try to play semantics.
It hardly matters if UK separates Political part of Hizbullah from Military wing or not, - the Hizbullah folks that are attacking Israel, storing weapons and building bunkers are still terrorists from UK point of view
Yeah ive made a mistake gave the wrong number, shows your lack of counter arguments if all you can do is to point on that:bash:
as for the author how about looking at the end of pdf? is that so hard? here let me help you - its Algemene Inlichtingen-en Veiligheidsdienst (AIVD)

Whatever, the UN still demands implementation of 1559 and Taif Accords, as for not participating in the disarmament, well i find it similiar to the situation when nothing was done save the Tutsis from Hutus, the UN troops had no mandate to open fire too... sad..

You quoting and linking to EU site, do not disprove the fact that the EU Parliament considers Hizubullah a terrorist organization...
oh btw you omitted this part, i hope not on purpose?


as for your little story about Arafat, it wasnt claimed, he was a terrorist, (and IMHO still is, im certain he gets his butt raped often in Satan's retirement centres) but he said the magic words and became accepted...




Tell us the incidents involving Hezis in Nederlands because your report reports zero.

What part of the EU link was ommited?:roll:

Arafat a terrorist always? Even when he received the Nobel prize for peace? This Nobel Foundation is a harbour of terrorists:)


The rest about Arafat's butt raped in Satan's retirement centers........

cookoos nest time.