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Atlantic Friend
09-13-2006, 02:18 PM
The French-Muslim Connection
Is France Doing a Better Job of Integration than Its Critics?
by Jodie T. Allen
Pew Research Center
August 17, 2006

When Muslim youth rioted in the suburbs of France late last year, commentators were quick to fault the French "color-blind" assimilation model. "The unrest in France's cities shows that social and policing policy has failed, as well as integration," read the headline on an article in the Economist magazine on November 12, 2005.

But findings from the latest Pew Global Attitudes Survey, which included over-samples of Muslims in four European countries,1 suggest that the French model can claim some success, however mixed. Some aspects of that relative success are especially striking when compared with the attitudes and experiences of Muslims in Great Britain, where police last week foiled a home-grown plot by Islamic terrorists to blow up U.S.-bound airliners.

France is home to the largest Muslim population in Europe, an estimated 5 million persons primarily of Algerian and Moroccan extraction (since religion is not tabulated in France's census, no official estimate is available). Similarly, Muslims in Spain are largely of Moroccan extraction. By contrast, Pakistanis predominate among Britain's Muslims along with other ethnicities, while Germany's Muslims are primarily Turkish in origin.

Where European Muslims Mostly Agree

When you see your Muslim friends on a daily basis you don't think that relations with Muslims are bad. But if all you do is watch television, most of what you see are extreme examples of Islam. Islam is not the religion of terror. But people are afraid of terrorism and too often religion is mixed up in the debate.
- Pierre-Etienne Issoulie, 22, architect, Paris2

It's true that relations are bad, but to go from there to saying who's wrong? I think everyone bears some responsibility. On the Muslim side, it's too much religion, religion, religion, and they don't want to open up to others.
- Jeannine Pilé, 33, housewife and mother

[All interviews cited in this analysis were conducted in France by reporters for the International Herald Tribune.]

French Muslims do share many opinions with their co-religionists in neighboring countries. Primary among them is concern about joblessness. More than half of French Muslims (52%) say they are very worried about unemployment among Muslims -- the primary complaint of last fall's rioters -- and an additional 32% say they are somewhat concerned. These levels are comparable to those expressed by Spanish, German and, to a slightly lesser degree, by British Muslims. (Curiously, among French Muslims, only 48% of those under age 35 say they are very worried about unemployment compared with 59% of their elders.)

Like Muslims elsewhere in Europe, the French also worry more generally about the future of Muslims in their country -- though, in this case, Muslims in France are significantly less worried than those in Great Britain. A majority (57%) is also at least somewhat concerned about the declining importance of religion among their co-religionists in France, though again, British Muslims are more troubled on this score with 73% sharing the worry. (In this, as in other questions in the survey, no significant difference is seen among the responses of French Muslims of Algerian, Moroccan or other ethnicity.)

Not surprisingly, a majority of French Muslims (63%) sympathize with their youthful rioters -- but not much more so than do Muslims in Spain and Germany. Interestingly, British Muslims are significantly more tolerant of the French car-burners, with fully 75% offering their sympathy.

Common Attitudes toward Non-Muslims

Relations between Muslims and westerners may be bad between governments; I don't actually think they are bad between people. But the people don't really get a chance to get to know each other… I think the mass media has played a big role in this. It's not objective on either side, and that leads to false stereotypes.
- M'hand Chabbi, 29, of Moroccan origin, works selling Moroccan specialties in a central Paris market

French Muslims share the view that relations between Muslims and Westerners are bad, a view prevalent elsewhere in Europe -- and in predominantly Muslim countries -- with the exception of Spain, where nearly half of the Muslim population rates relations as good compared with fewer than a quarter who call them bad. But while 58% of French Muslims view relations with Westerners as bad, far more (41%) view these relations as good than do British or German Muslims.

Additional points of similarity between French and other European Muslims include generally unfavorable opinions of the United States, of its war on terrorism and, to a lesser degree, of its citizens

Also, like the great majority of Muslims in Great Britain and Spain (though less so in Germany) French Muslim sympathies in the Middle East lie with the Palestinians rather than with Israel. However, nearly two-in-three French Muslims (65%) worry about extremism among Muslims -- as do even more (70%) of British Muslims. And, like Muslims elsewhere in Europe only a tiny minority of French Muslims (16%) say that suicide bombings and other violence against civilian targets in defense of Islam can often or sometimes be justified.

Voici La Différence

However, even on the hot button issues of the Middle East, French Muslims depart company with others of their faith both in Europe and in the Muslim world. For example, French Muslims are evenly split on the question of the effect of the victory by the radical group Hamas in this year's Palestinian election, with 44% saying it was good for Palestinians and 46% judging it bad. By comparison, British Muslims weighed in lopsidedly on the positive side (56% 'good' vs. 18% 'bad') as did Spanish Muslims (57% vs. 22%).

Moreover, joined only by German Muslims in Europe, the French are heavily opposed (71%) to the acquisition of nuclear weapons by Iran. British Muslims, in contrast, are evenly split on the subject.

And while the majority of Muslims in all four European countries surveyed say they have little or no confidence in Osama bin Laden, French Muslims are virtually unanimous (93%) in their disdain. (By comparison, 68% of British Muslims submit a vote of no confidence in the Al Qaeda leader.)

Most striking, however, is the difference between the views that French Muslims hold about people of other faiths and the views held by Muslims elsewhere in Europe and in predominantly Muslim countries. French Muslims even top the general publics in the United States and France in favorable ratings of Christians (91% of French Muslims vs. 88% of Americans and 87% of the French take that view).

But what most distinguishes French Muslims from their co-religionists not only in the Muslim world but in Europe, is their attitude toward Jews. Fully 71% of French Muslims express a positive view of people of the Jewish faith, compared with only 38% of German Muslims, 32% of British Muslims, 28% of Spanish Muslims and still lower numbers in the predominantly Muslim countries surveyed. In this, Muslims reflect the view of the larger French public among whom fully 86% express a favorable opinion of Jews, a higher proportion than even than among the American public.

At Home in France?

There are a lot of Muslims who are much more open, who don't pray regularly -- that's what I see in France. What happens in other countries I don't know. From what I see it's half and half in France. There are some who are super-cool, who are not practicing, who are very open to France, and others who are less.
- Wahid Chekhar, 34, actor

Most Muslims in France feel very French -- but they feel that the French don't see them that way, because they may look Arab or black…. Surveys suggest that Muslims are generally more conservative for example on issues such as ******ity and marriage... [But] the fraction of Muslims actively practicing their religion in France is only 10 percent, which is very similar to that of practicing Catholics.
- Catherine Wihtol de Wenden, immigration specialist and research director, Center for International Studies and Research, Paris

By and large, Muslims in France do not seem to see themselves as surrounded by hostile natives. Just 39% say they think many or most Europeans are hostile toward Muslims -- considerably lower percentage than the 56% among the general French population who take that view. In Germany, where most Muslims are of Turkish descent, roughly half (51%) see Europeans as unwelcoming -- a view shared by 63% of the larger German public.

This perception of welcome persists despite the fact that French Muslims are somewhat more likely than those in other European countries to report that they have had a bad experience attributable to their race, ethnicity or religion. Nearly four-in-ten Muslims (37%) in France report such incidents, compared with 28% in Britain, 25% in Spain and 19% in Germany. Younger French Muslims are more likely to report a bad experience -- 40% of those under age 35 compared with 31% of those age 35 or older.

But what most distinguishes French Muslims among others in Europe are their self-perceptions. Few Muslims living in France see a natural conflict between being a devout Muslim and living in a modern society. Seven-in-ten French Muslims (72%) perceive no such conflict, a view shared by a virtually identical 74%-share of the French general public. In Great Britain, however, Muslims split evenly (47% see a conflict, 49% do not) while only 35% of the British general public see no inherent conflict between devotion to Islam and adaptation to a modern society.

Moreover, when asked whether they consider themselves as a national citizen first or as a Muslim first, French Muslims split relatively evenly (42% vs. 46%) on the issue. Not only is this remarkably different from Muslims elsewhere in Europe (fully 81% of British Muslims self-identify with their religion rather than their nationality, for example) but it is remarkably close to the responses given by Americans when asked whether they identify first as national citizens or as Christians (48% vs. 42%). Perhaps in this, as in other things, Muslims living in France are indeed absorbing the secular ways of their countrymen, among whom fully 83% self-identify with their nationality, rather than their religion.

On this one question, however, some evidence of a growing Islamic identity among younger French Muslims appears. Among those under age 35, many of them French by birth, only 40% self-identify primarily as French while 51% self-identify first as Muslim, while 7% say both equally. Among those 35 and older, 45% self-identify with their nationality, 36% as Muslims and 16% as both equally.

However, no such age differential appears on the question of whether Muslims in France want either to be distinct from the larger culture or to adopt its customs. Nearly eight-in-ten French Muslims (78%) say they want to adopt French customs. Those under age 35 are equally as likely to say this as are their elders. This high preference for assimilation compares with that expressed by 53% of Muslims in Spain, 41% in Britain and 30% in Germany.

All in all, one might conclude that, despite their problems -- prime among them joblessness among youth generally, not just Muslim youth -- the French need take no integrationist lessons from their European neighbors.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notes
1Special samples among Muslim populations were surveyed in France, Germany, Great Britain and Spain in the Spring of 2006. For the complete report, including a summary of the methodology. economic and demographic data on the countries surveyed, and complete topline results see The Great Divide: How Westerners and Muslims View Each Other
2All interviews cited in this analysis were conducted in France by reporters for the International Herald Tribune.

More data available here : http://pewresearch.org/obdeck/?ObDeckID=50

CPL Trevoga
09-13-2006, 02:29 PM
"All in all, one might conclude that, despite their problems -- prime among them joblessness among youth generally, not just Muslim youth -- the French need take no integrationist lessons from their European neighbors."

Situation is normal, all fuked up. What French need is a lesson in law and order, law enforcement and riot control.

Atlantic Friend
09-13-2006, 02:32 PM
"All in all, one might conclude that, despite their problems -- prime among them joblessness among youth generally, not just Muslim youth -- the French need take no integrationist lessons from their European neighbors."

Situation is normal, all fuked up. What French need is a lesson in law and order, law enforcement and riot control.

Pray tell us, corporal, how YOU would have handled the situation.... ;)

CPL Trevoga
09-13-2006, 02:44 PM
Pray tell us, corporal, how YOU would have handled the situation.... ;)

Under no circumstences I would allow riots and destruction of private property. In case of these punks, a forceful responce was needed. That's my 2 euro cents.

Quietscheentchen
09-13-2006, 02:54 PM
Situation is normal, all fuked up. What French need is a lesson in law and order, law enforcement and riot control.

i guess that the french police has some nice experience in riot control...i would not want to mess with them. ;)

AROUETLJ
09-13-2006, 02:55 PM
Under no circumstences I would allow riots and destruction of private property. In case of these punks, a forceful responce was needed. That's my 2 euro cents.

The thing is, it's useless now, because the war's already lost.

Lazy Lob
09-13-2006, 03:18 PM
Charles Martel is turning in his grave.

Atlantic Friend
09-13-2006, 03:40 PM
Under no circumstences I would allow riots and destruction of private property. In case of these punks, a forceful responce was needed. That's my 2 euro cents.

The riot police was sent, thousands of people were charged, and hundreds of immigrants were expelled from the country. So, once again, Corporal, what would you have done differently ?

So pray tell us : what is that lesson in riot control you were talking about ? What is that lesson in law and order you were talking about ? What is that lesson in law enforcement you were talking about ?

I am all ears...

Atlantic Friend
09-13-2006, 03:43 PM
Charles Martel is turning in his grave.

He may be - but Charles Martel wasn't exactly into law enforcement last time I checked his background.

Plus, I kinda doubt 21st-century problems can be dealt with using 8th century tactics which were applied to a different situation. But hey, LL, that's just me ! ;)

mas-36
09-13-2006, 03:46 PM
Hmm....How many died during the riots in France? Also, can someone please remind me how many died during the L.A. riots?

Ordie
09-13-2006, 03:53 PM
There are three problems.

1) French strict employment policy.
For example, there is no such thing as an internship, entry-level jobs or creating your own start-up. Once you get a job, its a job for life. Many young French are leaving the country to the UK or N. America.

2) No affirmative action policy.
Everyone is French. The Government do not recognize hyphens. The problem is discrimiation. There is no way to record or track infractions. A thrid generation French national of North African background may be passed over because of his surname.

3) High density housing away from goods, services and employment.
many of the housing are clusered in high density developments outside of major cities. The cluster of like minded individuals creates problems.

AROUETLJ
09-13-2006, 03:54 PM
He may be - but Charles Martel wasn't exactly into law enforcement last time I checked his background.

Plus, I kinda doubt 21st-century problems can be dealt with using 8th century tactics which were applied to a different situation. But hey, LL, that's just me ! ;)

If I could just suggest one thing, Atlantic Friend: bring back la double peine. It was a just law.

Atlantic Friend
09-13-2006, 03:56 PM
If I could just suggest one thing, Atlantic Friend: bring back la double peine. It was a just law.

I totally agree. I don't see why it should be expulsion OR jail. Having criminal immigrants go though both is fine with me.

Lazy Lob
09-13-2006, 04:02 PM
He may be - but Charles Martel wasn't exactly into law enforcement last time I checked his background.


I wouldn’t worry about checking, peoples' backgrounds don’t tend to change when they’ve been dead for over 1200 years.


Plus, I kinda doubt 21st-century problems can be dealt with using 8th century tactics which were applied to a different situation. But hey, LL, that's just me ! ;)

Yep. ;-)

AROUETLJ
09-13-2006, 04:02 PM
There are three problems.

1) French strict employment policy.
For example, there is no such thing as an internship, entry-level jobs or creating your own start-up. Once you get a job, its a job for life. Many young French are leaving the country to the UK or N. America.

Not true. There are CDIs and CDDs and all sorts of stages.

2) No affirmative action policy.

And good thing too. At least you don't get Muslims being sent to the House of Lords just because of their ethnicity.
Everyone is French. The Government do not recognize hyphens. The problem is discrimiation. There is no way to record or track infractions. A thrid generation French national of North African background may be passed over because of his surname.
It depends on the job, but it is largely true. And there are no statistics on the problem, because it is forbidden to ask someone their to state their ethnic bakground in a survey.


3) High density housing away from goods, services and employment.
many of the housing are clusered in high density developments outside of major cities. The cluster of like minded individuals creates problems.
True, but then again, high density housing does not create criminals.

At the end of the day, I fear this problem is too delicate to be discussed in a military picture forum.

CPL Trevoga
09-13-2006, 04:11 PM
The riot police was sent, thousands of people were charged, and hundreds of immigrants were expelled from the country. So, once again, Corporal, what would you have done differently ?

So pray tell us : what is that lesson in riot control you were talking about ? What is that lesson in law and order you were talking about ? What is that lesson in law enforcement you were talking about ?

I am all ears...

Ok, no wonder it was very nice in Paris after the riots. Than they did everything correct.

Atlantic Friend
09-13-2006, 04:24 PM
Ok, no wonder it was very nice in Paris after the riots. Than they did everything correct.

Once again, corporal, pray show me what they did that was incorrect - you talked about lessons needed, so feel free to enlighten us.

CPL Trevoga
09-13-2006, 04:32 PM
Once again, corporal, pray show me what they did that was incorrect - you talked about lessons needed, so feel free to enlighten us.

Are you busting my chops? I just said they did everything correct based on your facts you stated and my personal experience in Paris, France. My perception that police was not was forceful enough during was wrong and uniformed.

Ordie
09-13-2006, 04:32 PM
There are three problems.

1) French strict employment policy.
For example, there is no such thing as an internship, entry-level jobs or creating your own start-up. Once you get a job, its a job for life. Many young French are leaving the country to the UK or N. America.

Not true. There are CDIs and CDDs and all sorts of stages.

2) No affirmative action policy.

And good thing too. At least you don't get Muslims being sent to the House of Lords just because of their ethnicity.
Everyone is French. The Government do not recognize hyphens. The problem is discrimiation. There is no way to record or track infractions. A thrid generation French national of North African background may be passed over because of his surname.
It depends on the job, but it is largely true. And there are no statistics on the problem, because it is forbidden to ask someone their to state their ethnic bakground in a survey.


3) High density housing away from goods, services and employment.
many of the housing are clusered in high density developments outside of major cities. The cluster of like minded individuals creates problems.
True, but then again, high density housing does not create criminals.

At the end of the day, I fear this problem is too delicate to be discussed in a military picture forum.


Thanks for the input.
I personally see more young French Nationals here in the States than before. Many of them are working in the banking, financial and high tech sectors. In conversations with them, many had left France because of the limited opportunities and lack of employment flexibility. They see CDI and CDD too constraining and like American system of internships and entry level jobs with an emphasis of skills and merit rather than education.

TheStorm
09-13-2006, 04:33 PM
Perhaps a state of emergency should have been declared earlier than 12 days into the riots.

Atlantic Friend
09-13-2006, 04:39 PM
Are you busting my chops? I just said they did everything correct based on your facts you stated and my personal experience in Paris, France. My perception that police was not was forceful enough during was wrong and uniformed.

Well, I'm asking you to put up - you feel the French police has three lessons to learn about law and order, law enforcement, and riot control. So I'm asking you to be a tad more specific about what should have been done.

If that is busting your chops, man, then yes I am busting yours - and will keep doing so until you elaborate.

Clarsachier
09-13-2006, 05:01 PM
Are you busting my chops? I just said they did everything correct based on your facts you stated and my personal experience in Paris, France. My perception that police was not was forceful enough during was wrong and uniformed.


CPL, when you can't even safely walk the streets at night where you live, there's real irony in your comment about French police 'not being forceful
enough'.

Belial
09-13-2006, 05:25 PM
CPL, when you can't even safely walk the streets at night where you live, there's real irony in your comment about French police 'not being forceful
enough'.
Hehehehehehe touché.
Interesting survey though.

CPL Trevoga
09-13-2006, 05:33 PM
CPL, when you can't even safely walk the streets at night where you live, there's real irony in your comment about French police 'not being forceful
enough'.

Now we talking cliches. My town is the safest metropolis in the America. It's a freakin' Disneyland here.

roland
09-13-2006, 06:28 PM
French Republican basis are excellent.
Despite we fvcked our economy, despite we fvcked our school system, despite uncontrolled immigration and multiculturalism we still have better result than others.
But lets stop loading the mule now, time to fix the mess cause I don't think the Republican model can resist much longer.
Already the third generation tend to be less assimilated than the second generation.
In fact I think the French don't give a rat @ss about Muslims or any religion as long as they stay discreet with there religion and don't piss people off with it.
It's Right for indifference, much better than Right for difference.

C.MAXIMUS
09-13-2006, 08:25 PM
"Our muslims are better than yours" I think the review still shows alarming numbers ... We are all in the s*it my friends :cantbeli:

Clarsachier
09-13-2006, 08:55 PM
Now we talking cliches. My town is the safest metropolis in the America. It's a freakin' Disneyland here.


With a population of 2.3 million, NYPD show 133 murders 300 rapes 5603 Felony assaults in 2006 to date in South & North Brooklyn.

You're proud of that? You'd like to compare that with Paris?

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/pct/cspdf.html

CPL Trevoga
09-14-2006, 02:26 PM
With a population of 2.3 million, NYPD show 133 murders 300 rapes 5603 Felony assaults in 2006 to date in South & North Brooklyn.

You're proud of that? You'd like to compare that with Paris?

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/pct/cspdf.html

What the hell you talking about? Proud of what? I said you're don't know what you talking about. NY is pretty safe city, but if you walk by some poor projects, there is a good chance somebody gonna jump your asss. Same thing in Paris, if you end up in some poor hood, some immigrant gangs will jump your asss, beat you and burn your car too.

Clarsachier
09-14-2006, 02:40 PM
What the hell you talking about? Proud of what? I said you're don't know what you talking about. NY is pretty safe city, but if you walk by some poor projects, there is a good chance somebody gonna jump your asss. Same thing in Paris, if you end up in some poor hood, some immigrant gangs will jump your asss, beat you and burn your car too.

Not even.

No European city has even near the crime rate your borrough has. So whatever their police are doing, it works.

Or maybe, it's the high percentage of Muslims?p-)

CPL Trevoga
09-14-2006, 04:56 PM
Not even.

No European city has even near the crime rate your borrough has. So whatever their police are doing, it works.


I'm not a French speaker, can you look up governement crime statistics for Paris? Than we'll compare data.

Clarsachier
09-14-2006, 05:27 PM
I'm not a French speaker, can you look up governement crime statistics for Paris? Than we'll compare data.

I havn't been able to get current data. I used to get this info from Interpol but, they don't currently give it to non police online.

Latest data I got was for 2001 - this,

http://www.csdp.org/research/hosb1203.pdf#search=%22crime%20statistics%20%20paris%20france%22

which shows FWIW, 1047 homocides for the entire country of France in 2001. There's no indication if that may include the territories as well. Anyway, from this number you can see my point?

Speaking about Paris FWIW, I lived there in '91 and there were only 3-4 murders for the entire year. I noticed a big increase in crime there. But nothing like any U.S. city.

Atlantic Friend
09-15-2006, 04:09 PM
This from www.nationmaster.com, based on a UN monitoring program :

Murders (1998-2000):

United States : 12,658 (per capita : 0.042802 per 1,000 people)
France : 1,051 (per capita : 0.017327 per 1,000 people)

Rapes (1998-2000) :

United States 89,110 (per capita : 0.301318 per 1,000 people)
France : 8,458 (per capita : 0.139442 per 1,000 people)

Robberies (1998-2000) :

United States : 409,670 (per capita : 1.38527 per 1,000 people)
France : 24,304 (per capita : 0.400686 per 1,000 people)

Burglaries (1998-2000) :

United States : 2,099,700 (per capita : 7.09996 per 1,000 people)
France : 370,993 (per capita : 6.11634 per 1,000 people)

Decebalus
09-15-2006, 04:31 PM
Now include the population. But I think we can all agree there are more crimes in the US than pretty much everywhere in Europe, except Russia maybe.

Atlantic Friend
09-15-2006, 04:42 PM
The respective populations ARE computed - in the per capita stats which are in number of crimes per 1,000 inhabitants.

But you're right, I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea here, so let's keep in kind that, according to the U.S. Census Bureau, as for April 2005 :

- the United States had 298,444,215 inhabitants
- France had 60,876,136 inhabitants

So one could expect the crime statistics for France to be 5 times smaller than the US in sheer numbers, and roughly on par with the US for crimes per 1,000 inhabitants. But it isn't exactly as easy and clear-cut as that.

Clarsachier
09-15-2006, 05:03 PM
[QUOTE=Atlantic Friend;1927892]The respective populations ARE computed - in the per capita stats which are in number of crimes per 1,000 inhabitants.

BTW, what was the (a recent) yearly murder tally for Paris. In '91, I thought
I remembered only 3-4 murders.

Clarsachier
09-15-2006, 05:06 PM
Now include the population. But I think we can all agree there are more crimes in the US than pretty much everywhere in Europe, except Russia maybe.

We aren't all aware.

I can tell you that it came as a shock to me when I first found out.

sikh_warrior
09-18-2006, 06:19 AM
im a Sikh from India and we have seen the Invasion of Islam to india and forced conversions to islam.

belive me muslims will never integrate into any country cus they belive in religion without boundries. see what happend in UK??

muslims of pakistani origin, born and brought up in UK blows up ppl in suicide bombings!!

muslims never integrated into India and in 1947 they formed and Islamic state of their own called Pakistan. then they couldnt sustain bengali muslims in now Bangladesh!

they have their own Shariya law and they never follow the law of the land they live in.

world must wake up to this religion before we have more trouble from them.

Clarsachier
09-18-2006, 11:59 AM
sikh_warrior;1932440]im a Sikh from India and we have seen the Invasion of Islam to india and forced conversions to islam.

belive me muslims will never integrate into any country cus they belive in religion without boundries. see what happend in UK??

muslims of pakistani origin, born and brought up in UK blows up ppl in suicide bombings!!

muslims never integrated into India and in 1947 they formed and Islamic state of their own called Pakistan. then they couldnt sustain bengali muslims in now Bangladesh!

they have their own Shariya law and they never follow the law of the land they live in.

world must wake up to this religion before we have more trouble from them.[

Namas-ta, welcome!

Maybe we should take a look at how France is successful integrating this culture since, I don't think we will persecute or contain a whole culure like this
in America. (Although, we did it to the Japanese in WW2.)

sikh_warrior
09-18-2006, 01:32 PM
bonjour

well i think there is a problem in France for wearing relgious signs in french schools?

roland
09-18-2006, 01:41 PM
bonjour

well i think there is a problem in France for wearing relgious signs in french schools?

The only problem is with a few religious bigots. So the problem is not the banning of religious signs at school but rather there bigotry.
More exactly the childrens's parents bigotry.
The poor childrens must be brainwashed enough in there family fortunately there is school to show them some light and some reasoning.

Clarsachier
09-18-2006, 01:52 PM
bonjour

well i think there is a problem in France for wearing relgious signs in french schools?


My 'name' is missleading I know, but I am an American living in Southern California.

I tend to think that France's prohibiting religous dress may be part of the cost of maintaining ethnic calm there. I regret that these new rules may include Sikh dress. The dagger is no longer allowed in to be worn in public either, in many areas.

Atlantic Friend
09-18-2006, 02:12 PM
bonjour

well i think there is a problem in France for wearing relgious signs in french schools?

They are not supposed to be displayed on what is a purely secular (and hence multiconfessional) school system.

sikh_warrior
09-18-2006, 02:17 PM
im not asking about religious knives to be allows. all things and objects which can be used in any form of incident which can lead to injury or relates to the safety of other student should not be allowed.

im just asking for Sikh students wearing turbans, which is worn to keep the long hair neat and tidy.

Atlantic Friend
09-18-2006, 02:25 PM
Now include the population. But I think we can all agree there are more crimes in the US than pretty much everywhere in Europe, except Russia maybe.

Here are the "top five" of crime (in number of crimes, not crime per capita):

Murders :

#1 India 37,170
#2 Russia 28,904
#3 Colombia 26,539
#4 South Africa 21,995
#5 Mexico 13,829

Rapes :

#1 United States 89,110
#2 South Africa 53,008
#3 Canada 24,049
#4 Australia 15,630
#5 India 15,468

Burglaries :

#1 United States 2,099,700
#2 United Kingdom 836,027
#3 Australia 436,865
#4 South Africa 394,557
#5 France 370,993

Robberies :

#1 Spain 497,262
#2 United States 409,670
#3 Mexico 215,120
#4 South Africa 197,038
#5 Russia 132,393

Eddy
09-18-2006, 02:26 PM
I tend to think that France's prohibiting religous dress may be part of the cost of maintaining ethnic calm there.

It has nothing to do with maintaining ethnic calm. France is a laïc state and this law tends to protect the republican model in public schools.


I regret that these new rules may include Sikh dress.

Ah so it should only be applied to muslims then ?

No religious signs whatsoever. Period.


im not asking about religious knives to be allows. im just asking for Sikh students wearing turbans, which is worn to keep the long hair neat and tidy.

Well thats their problem...

Nothing that covers the head is allowed in a french public school. Thats part of the rules and that was introduced long before this law.

That'd be a football cap, a beret or a helmet.

sikh_warrior
09-19-2006, 12:31 AM
well i agree to it as its the law of the land you choose to live and must follow the law of the land.

stephane from Paris
09-21-2006, 09:36 AM
The riot police was sent, thousands of people were charged, and hundreds of immigrants were expelled from the country.


In your dreams!! not more than one or two dozens were expelled.
It's Sarko show not better than sociallos.

Zarathustra
09-21-2006, 10:12 AM
Seconded, SFP, I have not heard of "hundreds of foreigners being kicked out" after the riots.

Atlantic Friend
09-21-2006, 12:10 PM
In your dreams!! not more than one or two dozens were expelled.
It's Sarko show not better than sociallos.

My bad. Nicoals Sarkozy had demanded 120 expulsions, and I (optimistically, as it seems) thought they were underway.