Muslim rage against the Pope

[Jeremiah]

Muslim fury grows at Pope's speech
Last updated at 13:42pm on 15th September 2006

Comments Reader comments (43)

Muslim activists burn an effigy of Pope Benedict XVI during a protest in Srinagar, India.


The furore over comments made by Pope Benedict about the Islamic concept of Holy War continues to grow. Today British Muslims joined in, fiercely criticising his remarks.

The pontiff was accused of falling into "the trap of bigots and racists" with the comments he made on a visit to Germany.

• Muslims must do more to integrate, says Archbishop

Last night Vatican officials were scrambling to defend the comments, saying the Pope had never intended to offend Muslims.

During a speech, he quoted a 14th century Byzantine emperor who said the prophet Mohammed had brought "things only evil and inhuman".

But Britain's Ramadhan Foundation, a youth organisation based in Rochdale, reacted angrily to the comments, comparing the Pope unfavourably to his predecessor John Paul II.

In a statement it said: "If the Pope wanted to attack Islam and Prophet Muhammad teachings he could have been brave enough to say it personally without quoting a 14th century Byzantine Christian emperor.

"The late Pope John Paul II spent over 25 years to build bridges and links with the Muslim community. He showed the world that its perception of Islam was false and that we are peace-loving people.

"The Ramadhan Foundation is disappointed that the current Pope has not followed the example of his predecessor; it is essential in today's world that we link together and encourage a wider understanding of our different faiths, celebrating our religious differences is essential in a ever expanding world."

Muhammad Umar, chairman of the foundation, said: "This attack on Islam and Prophet Muhammad by Pope Benedict is recognition that he has fallen into the trap of the bigots and racists when it comes to judging Islam on the actions of a small number of extreme elements."

The Pope's speech quoted from a book recounting a conversation between 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II and an educated Persian on the truths of Christianity and Islam.

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the Pope said.

"He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached'."

Benedict described the phrases on Islam as "brusque", while neither explicitly agreeing with nor repudiating them.

Pakistan's parliament condemned the "derogatory" remarks today and demanded an apology. The country's foreign ministry said they were "regrettable" and claimed they would encourage violence.

Vatican spokesman the Rev Federico Lombardi issued a statement defending the speech after Pope Benedict returned to Rome. "It certainly wasn't the intention of the Pope to carry out a deep examination of jihad (holy war) and on Muslim thought on it, much less to offend the sensibility of Muslim believers," he said.

He insisted that the pontiff wanted to "cultivate an attitude of respect and dialogue toward the other religions and cultures, obviously also toward Islam".

But Turkey's top Islamic cleric Ali Bardakoglu asked Benedict to apologise and made a string of accusations against Christianity, raising tensions ahead of a planned papal visit to the country in November.

He said he was deeply offended by the remarks and called them "extraordinarily worrying, saddening and unfortunate".

The 57-nation Organisation of the Islamic Conference, based in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, said it regretted "the Pope's quote and for the other falsifications". Militant Islamic websites also attacked the Pope.

www.dailymail.co.uk . . .

[ed316]

This will get locked.

[CPL Trevoga]

This will get locked.


Why? I don't see anything controvercial here.

[ed316]

The other thread got locked so it's a matter of time.

[daily666]

Why? I don't see anything controvercial here.

no, it's because there's another thread on this subject:

http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=91477.

[vrb]

It's been locked.....

[CPL Trevoga]

The other thread got locked so it's a matter of time.

So what did Pope say?

Ok, people got little crazy in the other thread. Somebody even sujested having intercourse with a religion. What a bunch of loons.

[daily666]

^^^ read the other thread, it's over there what he said.

[ed316]

So what did Pope say?

Ok, people got little crazy in the other thread. Somebody even sujested having intercourse with a religion. What a bunch of loons.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_09_06_pope.pdf

[annihilation]

Sometimes you have to stand back and laugh at all this and then realize this is the real world and starting crying.....

[joshfox0]

Sometimes you have to stand back and laugh at all this and then realize this is the real world and starting crying.....

very true very true. to me religions trying to get along with other relgions when they think they're the one true religion is a whole heap of bull anyway best to get all the nutty relgious folks out of the way.

[CPL Trevoga]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_09_06_pope.pdf

Thank you Ed.

This is very intellectually heavy read and it's possible that Popes words could be misinterpreted as an insult. It's not an insult, because he spoke the truth.
Christians do reject notion of forcible religious coersion, unlike Islam, were jihad is the way of life and what I think he saying is that Jihad is aganist God's will.

[americanbychoice]

Here's the Vatican web site & the speech that the Pope made...
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html

Seems like a reasonable speech about interfaith dialogue. Why this was perceived as an offensive speech, I do not know... other than that some people make a living out of creating drama and sparking conflict.

I don't think the Pope is saying that the concept of Jihad is bad... he is referring to forcible conversion & violence/militancy in the name of God. These sorts of people (the violent who use religion to rationalize their violence) are incapable of interfaith dialogue.

[Hollis]

Thank you Ed.

This is very intellectually heavy read and it's possible that Popes words could be misinterpreted as an insult. It's not an insult, because he spoke the truth.
Christians do reject notion of forcible religious coersion, unlike Islam, were jihad is the way of life and what I think he saying is that Jihad is aganist God's will.

I have read on two views of Jihad, one is an individual's own purification, cleansing of ones self from bad influences, the other the Societal purification which the Pope mentioned here and we are globally witnessing in the "terrorists" calls for "Jihad", the cleansing of Society from bad influences..

[annihilation]

I've read about 2 pages of the speech (im at work), its nicely written.

[daily666]

looke below what the Pope's speech have caused:
http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=91502&page=4

:(

[CruddyLeper]

Seems like a reasonable speech about interfaith dialogue. Why this was perceived as an offensive speech, I do not know..

Some religious leaders would rather be caught fornicating with a goat than have anything to do with a different religion.

[ed316]

looke below what the Pope's speech have caused:
http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=91502&page=4

:(


religion of peace and tolerance.

[Dizer]

Tough ****, I'm sick and tired of their crap. Bunch of cry babies whining for some speech by a westerner yet they're the first to cut each other throat when they have a beef for some trivial things.

[Macs.]

looke below what the Pope's speech have caused:
http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=91502&page=4

:(

Not the Popes speech has caused that, some idiotic morons have caused that.

Let them cry if they feel better afterwards, seems like some people have no other hobbies.

[ed316]

BTW is wasn't the Pope's word. He was quoting Byzantine emperor Manuel Paleologos II.

[daily666]

BTW is wasn't the Pope's word. He was quoting Byzantine emperor Manuel Paleologos II.

Do you think those guys shouting on the street about jihad know about that? Like Macs said, some fool told them to shout so they shout.

[ed316]

Do you think those guys shouting on the street about jihad know about that? Like Macs said, some fool told them to shout so they shout.

Of course they don't. Just like how they get their "news" someone told them. The Pope even said "I quote" twice.

[daily666]

Of course they don't. Just like how they get their "news" someone told them. The Pope even said "I quote" twice.

And because of what he said got bashed by the French media.

[foxtrot023]

what cracks me up about these jokers is that the pope quotes someting and they go ballistic, but there is zip about the situation in sudan, were muslims are practically comitting genocide on Christians, but you dont see them protesting that.....

[Thunder]

BTW is wasn't the Pope's word. He was quoting Byzantine emperor Manuel Paleologos II.
So he could have quoted something from Mein Kampf and it would have been alright, because it were not his words?

(<- Devil's advocate)

[ed316]

So he could have quoted something from Mein Kampf and it would have been alright, because it were not his words?

(<- Devil's advocate)


Read the whole speech and then come back.

[Kleistmaster]

churches are empty so he searchs new friends who cares more about religion, sad

[Rubber Johnny]

Here we go again.. 2000 protested in Gaza today (non-violent as far as I know) against the pope's speech.

"It is a crusade against the muslim world. It comes as different forms, comic sketches and lectures, they hate our religion". - Ismail Raduan, a Hamas operative.

Sad thing is that the masses actually listens to fools like him.

[askDNA]

That was a good reading...nothing to blow up about. Of course the gatekeepers of the media in the ME just love to spill out their own version to their professional marching protesters :roll:

Another good read by the Pope:

http://www.comunioneliberazione.org/articoli/eng/RatzAvv140504.htm

[dedgod]

This is of concern because its only a matter of time because someone uses this as an excuse to bomb churches somewhere..

[Lau]

Is it me or is Islam turning in to the religion of whiners? I mean, come on, the cartoons and now the pope.. When I look at some muslim nations, I see a lot of work that needs to be done, MASSIVE social, freedom and economical problems, but they use all their energy complaining about stupid little things!

Somehow I think the leaders of some muslim nations encourage these radicals, so the common man never notice how he is deprived of all dignity and freedom by he's own leaders!
Man, if Allah only could see these protesters... :bash:

[Kleistmaster]

whats the goal of this speech?

[Thunder]

"It is a crusade against the muslim world. It comes as different forms, comic sketches and lectures, they hate our religion". - Ismail Raduan, a Hamas operative.
Gosh, I wonder why that would be.



:roll:

[Macs.]

whats the goal of this speech?

Just read it.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Musilms can always find a reason to rage about something.

[Kleistmaster]

Just read it.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html

pretty boring i know why churches are empty now, whats the part that pissed off muslims?

[C.MAXIMUS]

Is it me or is Islam turning in to the religion of whiners?

Every time the word "Muslim" is mentioned in the UK follows or proceed angry, disillusioned, alienated :cantbeli:They hate this place so much I wonder why the flights to Karachi are not full .... ???

At least we know the pope has "brass balls" ... good to know. p-)

[haze99]

Kleistmaster, the reason the churches are empty, is because the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not spoken within the churches! Clear Biblical teaching has not been given in Western European churches in many years! The redemming, forgiving Love of God the Father through Christ Jesus has been rejected! Your governments have disregarded any Judeo-Christian principles you may have had. For some secular-humanistic Darwinian worldview. And many are at a loss as to why the social utopia has not come about?
Here is the question you must answer, why aren't Europeans emmigrating to the moslems countries? But yet, hordes of moslems are coming to Western Europe?

[getl0st]

BTW is wasn't the Pope's word. He was quoting Byzantine emperor Manuel Paleologos II.

I love how people quote stuff that fit's their opinion or to justify their position/perspective, nicely done Pope.

hhhmmmm, it's very interesting the recent change in rheteric from some Western Leaders and now the Pope, I don't know about you guys but I think something is cooking.

The Political Correctness seems to be gradually being replaced by telling it how it is regardless of the 'consequences' which is probably due to the fact that we get the 'consequences' regardless of what we say anyway.

[getl0st]

This is of concern because its only a matter of time because someone uses this as an excuse to bomb churches somewhere..

Their going to bomb churches anyway, doesn't matter what we say or do.

[Kleistmaster]

Kleistmaster, the reason the churches are empty, is because the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not spoken within the churches! Clear Biblical teaching has not been given in Western European churches in many years! The redemming, forgiving Love of God the Father through Christ Jesus has been rejected! Your governments have disregarded any Judeo-Christian principles you may have had. For some secular-humanistic Darwinian worldview. And many are at a loss as to why the social utopia has not come about?
Here is the question you must answer, why aren't Europeans emmigrating to the moslems countries? But yet, hordes of moslems are coming to Western Europe?

bush would say for freedom and democraty but for most of them the only reason is money.

its more serious than the cartoons, this pope is clearly taking a different way than the previous and it doesnt look like peace...

[newb]

Pope quoted, not even gave his opinion, someone's statement that is absolutely true. if that offends muslims, well too bad ... they can kiss Vatican's @ss :bash: . They should look in the mirror first. The only thing that saddens me is violance that will follow this speach.

[chauncy republicans]

They should look in the mirror first.
But that would prompt them to shave all that bull**** off of their face.

[MG 3]

Poor show by the Pope. All this will achive is that it will further restrict the Cath Curches reach in the Muslim world where a lot of Christians rely on the churches help to get out of poverty.

By the way kill a cow or break a Buddah statue will give you a same reaction from their followers(hindus and Budhaists). Why do you ppl have to prove the fundamentlists right every time. :(

[chauncy republicans]

By the way kill a cow or break a Buddah statue will give you a same reaction from their followers(hindus and Budhaists). Why do you ppl have to prove the fundamentlists right every time. :(
While I could be mistaken, I don't recall buddhists going berzerk when the Taliban blew up the two giant stautues of buddha in Afghanistan.

Care to take a gander at how many cows are slaughtered and eaten on a dailey basis here in America.

****, and I thought I've made some stupid comments before...

[Kleistmaster]

i doubt vatican will be bombed nor any church in europe, troubles will be for pakistani and asian christians, dont know if they need this.

interesting thing now is to see how vatican will let the thing grow up and when the goal achieved calm down this and explain how sorry they are that some people misunderstood pope.

[STIG]

.

By the way kill a cow or break a Buddah statue will give you a same reaction from their followers(hindus and Budhaists). Why do you ppl have to prove the fundamentlists right every time. :(

I haven't heard of any hindus or buddhists burning embassies and going on a wild rampage if someone hurt their religious beliefs unlike some other people................

[Asheren]

I wouldn't be soo sure cos even without such speeches there is a good amount of peoples that want to kill pope. I remmeber reading about at last 4 plots to kill pope in last few years.(two of that plots orginated from muslim organisations,one was a mentaly unstable guy and last one orginated from some sort of a doomsday cult) Knowing church real number could be much much higer.

[getl0st]

I'm going to shed some camel tears.

[MG 3]

Guys guys I am not supporting burning of stuff I am just saying that it is very herting to hear such stuff from such an educated person. When the taliban blew up the bamayan buddah it was a sad site but all this will do is give more fire to th radicals. And dudes you dont touch cows in india, and its not funny cause its someones or more like billion ppls religion!

[Snoshi]

I understand that muslims are easily offended when it comes to their religion... but Pope should know such things better...

[MG 3]

i doubt vatican will be bombed nor any church in europe, troubles will be for pakistani and asian christians, dont know if they need this.

interesting thing now is to see how vatican will let the thing grow up and when the goal achieved calm down this and explain how sorry they are that some people misunderstood pope.

My point exactly that comment just made our lives here more difficult.

[Lazy Lob]

Here we go again. I wouldn’t be surprised that the vast majority of Muslims haven’t read the speech. A lot probably don't even know what "a Pope" is. Yet the “impromptu” placards are out in the street, the digital SLRs and the 1 row deep “crowds” all within just a few hours of the speech.

These images get broadcast with some Ahmed Abu Laban type characters stoking the fire and half the Muslim world wants to kill the West and is burning down embassies.

If only they would accept product placement in their campaigns I’d be a millionaire.

[theholeinthedonut]

Get back to earth! The pope just apologized!
By the way, Ali Bardakoglu, the head of the Turkish Governement's agency for religious affairs, the guy who started the latest "love and tolerance campaign" of the muslim world, admitted this morning that he never read the pope's speech! But nonetheless he knew enough about the matter to compare the pope to Hitler!
You just have to love the guys!

[annihilation]

Sometimes I think maybe civilizations should be seperated. Might be the best way to keep the peace. Muslims on one side and the rest of the world on the other.

[Macs.]

I understand that muslims are easily offended when it comes to their religion... but Pope should know such things better...

Read the whole speech.

I don't see how that is offensive... Some troublemakers just picked out the parts of the speech which fit their agenda and are playing the crybaby-game now.

Easy propaganda.

[gustavski]

the pope is old, he maybe dont know what is he talking about... this kind of event is an opportunity for al-Qaeda create more attack or threat... anyway be prepare for the worse...

[Macs.]

the pope is old, he maybe dont know what is he talking about... this kind of event is an opportunity for al-Qaeda create more attack or threat... anyway be prepare for the worse...

And another one...

I am 100% sure you didn't even read the freaking speech but you are already talking.

[weissent]

Do I get this right? Muslims around the world misunderstand the Pope's speech ("Muslims are violent") and try to prove him wrong by torching churches???
*sigh* Again well done, my dear friends in the Middle East, well done. :cantbeli:

[daily666]

the pope is old, he maybe dont know what is he talking about... this kind of event is an opportunity for al-Qaeda create more attack or threat... anyway be prepare for the worse...

Did I feel safer before the Pope's speech...errrm, no?

Al-Qaeda doesn't need an excuse such as Pope's speech. Yes, they will use it anyway but if they didn't, they still have plenty of excuses such as you boy, dancing with a some nice lady to some western music.

Uh, and talking that the Pope's old is totally out of place, he looks like he's very capable intellectually.

[signatory]

Pope sorry for remarks
Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:58am ET

VATICAN CITY (*******) - Pope Benedict told Muslims on Saturday he was sorry they had found his speech on Islam offensive, expressing his respect for their faith and hoping they would understand the "true sense" of his words.

"The Holy Father is very sorry that some passages of his speech may have sounded offensive to the sensibilities of Muslim believers," Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone said in a statement.

The statement came amid mounting anger from Muslims over remarks by the Pope in a speech in his native Germany on Tuesday that was seen as critical of their faith. Calls for him to apologize had spread beyond the Islamic world.


In that speech, the Pope appeared to endorse a Christian view, contested by most Muslims, that the early Muslims spread their religion by violence. Islamic fury erupted on Thursday and has cast doubt on a visit the Pope plans to Turkey in November.

But the Vatican statement said: "Confirming his respect and esteem for those who profess the Islamic faith, he (the Pope) hopes they will be helped to understand his words in their true sense."

Before the statement, the tide of Muslim criticism of the Roman Catholic leader swelled on Saturday.

Yemen's president became the first head of state publicly to denounce him and threatened to review ties with the Vatican unless he apologized. Ali Abdullah Saleh, campaigning for re-election, told voters at a rally Benedict had wronged Islam.

Two churches -- neither of them Catholic -- were fire-bombed in the West Bank, although no one was hurt.

More: http://today.*******.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-09-16T115743Z_01_L14330092_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-POPE-ISLAM.xml

[hughdotoh]

There! everybody happy now that the man has apologized?

Far as I know, no Muslim (apart from Ayura and the Turks here) has ever apologized for the bombing of anything. Then again, Christians are into this forgive-forget mode all the time.

[daily666]

There! everybody happy now that the man has apologized?


Pope Benedict told Muslims on Saturday he was sorry they had found his speech on Islam offensive, expressing his respect for their faith and hoping they would understand the "true sense" of his words"

[annihilation]

There! everybody happy now that the man has apologized?

Far as I know, no Muslim (apart from Ayura and the Turks here) has ever apologized for the bombing of anything. Then again, Christians are into this forgive-forget mode all the time.

But they are the victims!!!!!

[getl0st]

Screw their sensitivities.

If they want to be part of the World community they should start acting in a manner acceptable to the rest of the World.

Then we may take their sensitivities into consideration.

And, um, yeah, muslim world, hows about you take out those dumb f^cks that are giving your religion a bad name while your at it.

It would be nice if they got as upset about the guys giving their religion a bad name as they did about the Popes speech.

:fork: :fork: :fork:

[Beykoz]

As far as I can see, if he didn't quote the passage from the 14th century to begin with, there would be no dramas.

I read some users stating that it wasn't his words, but why would he quote them if he didn't agree with it. As the spiritual (and to some extent political) leader of the Christians around the world, it was insensitive to say the least.

All this drama aside, the "true sense" of his words are noteworthy.

[Sixpints]

Muslims already made a complete arse of themselves with the cartoon riots, now they're petrol bombing churches and threatening to kill the pope to prove their point that the islam is a religion of peace...

[socom6]

When u are a World leader and a christian one at that u have to be careful what u say about Islam. As a matter of fact dont say anything lol.

[newb]

As far as I can see, if he didn't quote the passage from the 14th century to begin with, there would be no dramas.

I read some users stating that it wasn't his words, but why would he quote them if he didn't agree with it. As the spiritual (and to some extent political) leader of the Christians around the world, it was insensitive to say the least.

All this drama aside, the "true sense" of his words are noteworthy.

i believe he quoted them because he agrees with them. in fact what part of what was quoted wasn't true?

[talib_killa34]

At first I read about it and thought "The Pope has got some ballz", then I anticipated the ****t storm that was about to be unleashed. (Step #1)More flag burning (where do you get a Papal flag?) and more name calling/hate mongering. "Death to..." etc etc

If he apologizes (again) then it goes back to the status quo. The rallys die down and the Media Eye moves on the next story. Later on, some cartoon, movie, book, public figure, president says or does something "against Islam" and we repeat step #1 all over again.

What a world...

:(

[Hydro]

Is the Vatican City now on the list of Al-Qaeda targets? I think the Pope should send some of those funky Swiss Guards to Afghan.

[Luno]

The pope don’t talk for al the Christianity like some people here do think


Let me remind you of this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years'_War

[Beykoz]

i believe he quoted them because he agrees with them. in fact what part of what was quoted wasn't true?
I am not sure, as it doesn't interest me in the slightest to read into it.

BUT, skipping Christian violence and concentrating on Muslim one is a tad hypocritical and provocative.

[shire19]

So let me get this straight. The Pope is trying to make a point concerning forcefull conversion in religion and uses the quote of an Christian emperor that talks about how Islam has been the prime proof of this in the 14th century?

Why not stick to Christianity if he's trying to make a point? Or is that blasphemous?

And if Muhammad spread his religion by the tip of the sword at all times, there would be no Jews or Christians living in Arabia and his successors would have followed his example and eventually the middle-east would only have Muslims today.

[daily666]

So let me get this straight. The Pope is trying to make a point concerning forcefull conversion in religion and uses the quote of an Christian emperor that talks about how Islam has been the prime proof of this in the 14th century?

Why not stick to Christianity if he's trying to make a point? Or is that blasphemous?

And if Muhammad spread his religion by the tip of the sword at all times, there would be no Jews or Christians living in Arabia and his successors would have followed his example and eventually the middle-east would only have Muslims today.

Uh, would you deny that the religion was spread by the the tip of the sword? Christianity did that through holy wars, that's a fact and Vatican admitted it's fault. No tell me, are the Pope's words so offensive that thousends of muslims are shouting in amuck demanding apology and burning Churches? Uh, and I'm afraid you're allowed to bring Holy Qu'ran to Vatican.

Also I think it was a universal thesis From Pope's meeting at the University of Regensburg:


"The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God", he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats.... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death..."

[AZRON]

And if Muhammad spread his religion by the tip of the sword at all times, there would be no Jews or Christians living in Arabia and his successors would have followed his example and eventually the middle-east would only have Muslims today.

Excuse me but I think that is the current game plan.
The same plan get's a redo every few hundred years.

However this time it isn't tribal or ethnic nationalism based but religion based to a major extent. The current crop is less tolerant than Muhammed's was . In the middle of the conflict you have Shia Persians and Sunni Arabs vying to be the ultimate infidel conqueror.

[Moledet]

Pope sorry for remarks
Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:58am ET

VATICAN CITY (*******) - Pope Benedict told Muslims on Saturday he was sorry they had found his speech on Islam offensive, expressing his respect for their faith and hoping they would understand the "true sense" of his words.

"The Holy Father is very sorry that some passages of his speech may have sounded offensive to the sensibilities of Muslim believers," Vatican Secretary of State Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone said in a statement.

The statement came amid mounting anger from Muslims over remarks by the Pope in a speech in his native Germany on Tuesday that was seen as critical of their faith. Calls for him to apologize had spread beyond the Islamic world.


In that speech, the Pope appeared to endorse a Christian view, contested by most Muslims, that the early Muslims spread their religion by violence. Islamic fury erupted on Thursday and has cast doubt on a visit the Pope plans to Turkey in November.

But the Vatican statement said: "Confirming his respect and esteem for those who profess the Islamic faith, he (the Pope) hopes they will be helped to understand his words in their true sense."

Before the statement, the tide of Muslim criticism of the Roman Catholic leader swelled on Saturday.

Yemen's president became the first head of state publicly to denounce him and threatened to review ties with the Vatican unless he apologized. Ali Abdullah Saleh, campaigning for re-election, told voters at a rally Benedict had wronged Islam.

Two churches -- neither of them Catholic -- were fire-bombed in the West Bank, although no one was hurt.

More: http://today.*******.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-09-16T115743Z_01_L14330092_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-POPE-ISLAM.xml
The Muslism Brotherhood in response:"The Vatican's message is not enough, the pope owes the muslims a personal apology" rofl
So do they expect him to go house to house in the muslim world or just to send them letters?

[CruddyLeper]

Erm... he didn't actually apologise for the speech, he said he was sorry that Muslims misinterpreted it.

Which is fine by me, but it takes a lot to get some Muslim religious leaders to admit that they were hot headed, impetuous, and WRONG.

[daily666]

Erm... he didn't actually apologise for the speech, he said he was sorry that Muslims misinterpreted it.

Exactly! Again:


Pope Benedict XVI has said he is sorry that a speech in which he referred to Islam has offended Muslims.

[Thunder]

From now on, the pope should demand an apology everytime a muslim 'leader' says something that 'offends' the Catholic world. I wonder how those hypocrites would respond to that.



Not shaking a woman's hand is an insult to me, but apparently nobody cares about that because I don't have a religion.

[jojo]

Others have said it - the Pope did not apologise. And why should he? Muslims world-wide are trying to create a culture of "victimhood" firstly to stifle criticism and secondly to excuse their actions. "Islamophobia" is the latest UK buzzword for any PERCEIVED slight, and it doesn't take much. Yet they feel free to preach "death to the Infidel/Jew/anyone else they don't like" at the drop of a hat. Oh, and a good percentage over here would prefer to live under Sharia law. Airport's that way, folks! And Middle East weather is SO nice at this time of year.

[shire19]

Uh, would you deny that the religion was spread by the the tip of the sword? Christianity did that through holy wars, that's a fact and Vatican admitted it's fault. No tell me, are the Pope's words so offensive that thousends of muslims are shouting in amuck demanding apology and burning Churches? Uh, and I'm afraid you're allowed to bring Holy Qu'ran to Vatican.

Also I think it was a universal thesis From Pope's meeting at the University of Regensburg:

I did add at all times. Incitement like this can get the wrong people up in arms, those that would love to run amok for the slightest reasons. As you see you hardly hear a peep from Muslims on this side of the fence.

[EsoognomEhT]

In other news, the sun rising at 6.00am this morning was seen as a grave insult to Islam

[Lau]

In other news, the sun rising at 6.00am this morning was seen as a grave insult to Islam

lol... You hit the nail...

[Lazy Lob]

This is where the argument breaks down. All religions are proud of the message they want to spread and about the infallibility of their originator.

Most, if not all religions, consider “man” to be fallible. So arguing about how or what man did to spread the word is a bit poor as all religions have had their massacres, some better documented than others. Islam has had its fratricides as well as the Christians.

What cannot be denied is the difference in the way the original message was spread by the two “messengers” from god. One had a sword the other “turned the other cheek” regardless of threats to both of these two nascent religions.

[Dronetek]

It’s becoming so that you cannot criticize Muslims. I must say that is pretty distressful.

[theholeinthedonut]

So let me get this straight. The Pope is trying to make a point concerning forcefull conversion in religion and uses the quote of an Christian emperor that talks about how Islam has been the prime proof of this in the 14th century?

Why not stick to Christianity if he's trying to make a point? Or is that blasphemous?

And if Muhammad spread his religion by the tip of the sword at all times, there would be no Jews or Christians living in Arabia and his successors would have followed his example and eventually the middle-east would only have Muslims today.

Tell me something about the christians in Saudi Arabia, lets say i want to follow Sunday Mass tomorrow morning in Mecca, what to I do? Where do I go?

[talib_killa34]

Tell me something about the christians in Saudi Arabia, lets say i want to follow Sunday Mass tomorrow morning in Mecca, what to I do? Where do I go?


No other choice but to move.

[Hollis]

And if Muhammad spread his religion by the tip of the sword at all times, there would be no Jews or Christians living in Arabia and his successors would have followed his example and eventually the middle-east would only have Muslims today.


My understanding he did give it a really good try.

[NewsMan]

Absolutely amazes me. I just struggle to understand how people can justify muder and destruction because of something someone said. I know... there's a bunch of justifiable cases... but my god, can Muslim's have such a thin skin that these relatively benign comments can create such hatred? Clearly there's underlying issues... I'm just concerned the main issue is that the menatlity has not escaped the 17th century at the least.

[Rubber Johnny]

How come the world needs to appolagize whenever the muslims get offended by something that's completley unrelated to offending, but when an appolagy is asked when they burn and stomp Israel and US flags (jews+christians) it's automatically considered "rude, inappropriate, generalizing, asking way too much" ?

[NewsMan]

Pope Benedict told Muslims on Saturday he was sorry they had found his speech on Islam offensive, expressing his respect for their faith and hoping they would understand the "true sense" of his words"

C'mon, that's not enough. The only way to right this is to stone the pope.

[Moledet]

From now on, the pope should demand an apology everytime a muslim 'leader' says something that 'offends' the Catholic world. I wonder how those hypocrites would respond to that.

Maybe he should start by criticising things that needs to be criticised like the molotov cocktails that were thrown today on churches in Nablus.

http://www.ynet.co.il/PicServer2/20122005/892699/JRL104_wa.jpg
(Greek Orthodox church in Nablus today)

Heh, get that, a group called "Islam's sword" threathens to blow up all the churches in Gaza unless the pope goes on TV and publicaly apologises.

P.S. This act was not in anyway inspired by Muhamad or Islam ;)

[thscott83]

Maybe the throwbacks should spend a little time learning how to read and write, and perhaps make a living...

[shire19]

My understanding he did give it a really good try.

Not even that, once his amount of followers started to grow so did his army, there was no one inside Arabia to oppose him. So he choose to be tolerant rather than oppressive.

[annihilation]

It’s becoming so that you cannot criticize Muslims. I must say that is pretty distressful.

Im more worried about what will happen after when you can't criticize muslims.

[LaoSexMachine]

I want a Muslim apology for the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas. So where is it? Did Buddhist burn flags in the street and call for the bloods of Muslim? Get over it your not special.

[Hollis]

Not even that, once his amount of followers started to grow so did his army, there was no one inside Arabia to oppose him. So he choose to be tolerant rather than oppressive.


I must have been thinking of the earlier period where he was not very meriful and annilated a bunch of people. I would have to review Islamic expansion of that period. I read some stuff earlier where conversion was mandatory or it was death.

I guess to be fair, most of the world was acting pretty much the same. The atrributes of the 7th and 8th to century to much later was very violant and very unforgiving along with Zero Tolerance.

[vryhpyammoadded]

What I read from the pope… “It is a moving experience for me…snip… It is to this great logos, to this breadth of reason, that we invite our partners in the dialogue of cultures. To rediscover it constantly is the great task of the university.”
What a few angry Muslims heard “It is a … Blah, blah, blah Muslim… Blah, blah, blah Mohammed. Blah, blah, blah violence… Blah, blah, blah bad… great task of the university.”
What I understood the pope as basically saying using the analogy was that people must accept a religion based upon reason using discourse not violent, forced conversion. To me it sounded like a plea for moderation and diplomacy to all sides not a condemnation of all Islam.
His apology was spot on. To those who couldn’t understand what he said, he’s truly sorry the meaning passed right over there heads causing them to get so bent out of shape and violent. Well said pope!

[AztecMex]

If this becomes a religious war then we are all screwed. all tho i dont think it will come to that but the Muslims are pretty mad right now with every thing thats happening.If it comes to that every one is going to be hiting each other with books of there religion and saying that theres is better.

[Lazy Lob]

Not even that, once his amount of followers started to grow so did his army, there was no one inside Arabia to oppose him. So he choose to be tolerant rather than oppressive.



It’s easy to be magnanimous and tolerant when you have no opposition, innit?

[Rubber Johnny]

Proving via VIOLENCE that the pope's speech about muslims being VIOLENT is wrong, is.. pretty annoyingly stupid.

Did they leave notes demanding the recognition of the Islam as a peacfull religion before or after they've attacked the churches?
Quoting myself in hopes of getting some answers.

[lightfire]

I'm neither catholic,nor muslim,but at this point I could say

I've had enough of them(the last ones especially),so in my mind there's only a short decision-nuke them!:bash: Not those,who can play in their religious kindergarden nicelly,but those fanatics,radicals and other brainwashed scum..I say nuke them all,to hell with them.Geez,what a world,anyone,who'd shout "you,heretic,must be burned",o "alahu akbar" I'd be ready to nuke twice.
that's all from my minds,realy angry about the halooonic stupidity of people,better to get rid of them for petty sake...

[CruddyLeper]

I'm neither catholic,nor muslim,but at this point I could say

I've had enough of them(the last ones especially),so in my mind there's only a short decision-nuke them!:bash: Not those,who can play in their religious kindergarden nicelly,but those fanatics,radicals and other brainwashed scum..I say nuke them all,to hell with them.Geez,what a world,anyone,who'd shout "you,heretic,must be burned",o "alahu akbar" I'd be ready to nuke twice.
that's all from my minds,realy angry about the halooonic stupidity of people,better to get rid of them for petty sake...

Are you talking about Catholics or Muslims? I just want to be absolutely sure.

[Rubber Johnny]

I'm pretty sure he's addressing:

those fanatics,radicals and other brainwashed scum..

[CruddyLeper]

Which isn't the whole of Islam or indeed Catholicism.

[lightfire]

both throughout history have done great evil to themselves,others and to the world(not denying the fact,that they have brought a lot of good).But you know,sometimes you see the line is crossed. This time by the fanatics from the muslim side. Not only those idiots,who can't read,who just love to hate jews since childhood,by learning from pictures or religious/terorist schools,but also the "educated"ones-profesors of unies,other experts in cold face like shheps claim,that 9/11 was a jewish plot,or it never actually happened..that's just too much. There's a saying-he,who beats,cries most loudlly...it was just my emotions-to gather all those fanatics,radicals and dangerous dumb fools in one place and nuke them!
yes,I know it's not real,I know it's not the best way,but still..my emotion is at this level now,and THEY want smth more than appology,you see...Oh sure,an appology..How would you like some appologies in the mean of bombs:bash: And some pacifist believers still say,that's not a clash of civilisations..at least of mentalities,cultures,religions and their interpretations by some-it surelly is.

"Which isn't the whole of Islam or indeed Catholicism."

of course not,but sometimes it drives/rules the whole,that represents that particular religion. Yea,I know that those radicals is way not the biggest part,but still,in muslim space,this number growths,hatred is combined with the cunning ability to use the benefits of helpless western democrasies,their human rights,freedom of word etc. They are using this,as far as I can see,and this incdent with pope,of whom,to be honest,I lagerly give a.... shows what the sides want-catholics R thrying to explain,muslims shouts for another holy war..many of them,everywhere,and that doesn't look like minority..are they nuts?

[Thunder]

Which isn't the whole of Islam or indeed Catholicism.
The amount of muslims you see burning flags and violently protesting because of, for example, a cartoon, gives me the impression the Islam consists of nothing but thin-skinned brainwashed fanatics. Were all those hordes of people cheering in the streets after 9/11 'radical muslims'? Because supposedly they only make up for a small percentage of the Islam; the rest of them are all kind, sane and peace-loving people. They must be locked up in a big cellar somewhere, because I don't see them.

[annihilation]

The amount of muslims you see burning flags and violently protesting because of, for example, a cartoon, gives me the impression the Islam consists of nothing but thin-skinned brainwashed fanatics. Were all those hordes of people cheering in the streets after 9/11 'radical muslims'? Because supposedly they only make up for a small percentage of the Islam; the rest of them are all kind, sane and peace-loving people. They must be locked up in a big cellar somewhere, because I don't see them.

They are too afraid to come out, because those same thin-skinned horde will turn on them as easily for not being pure to islam. The religion has alot of growing pains ahead it if it wishes to be part of the 21st century.

[LaoSexMachine]

They are too afraid to come out, because those same thin-skinned horde will turn on them as easily for not being pure to islam. The religion has alot of growing pains ahead it if it wishes to be part of the 21st century.


Too afraid or secretly agreeing with thier "extremist" bretherens?

[Thunder]

Too afraid or secrectly agreeing with thier "extremist" bretherens?
My thoughts exactly.

[Group9]

"On Friday night about 2,000 protesters gathered outside the Palestinian parliament building to express their anger at the pope's statement. "This is a new crusade against the Arab Islamic world. It comes in different forms, in cartoons or lectures ... They hate our religion," Ismail Radwan, a local Hamas official, told the rally.

During one rally gunmen in Gaza city opened fire at the Greek Orthodox church; no injuries or damage were reported. An unknown organization named “The sword of Islam claimed responsibility for the incident.



“We want to make it clear that if the pope does not appear on TV and apologize for his comments, we will blow up all of Gaza’s churches,” the group said in a statement. "

Yeah, this proves how wrong the Pope is.

[cbreedon]

Don't they have jobs..... how can they seemingly protest for weeks on end???? No wonder their economies suk.

[shire19]

It’s easy to be magnanimous and tolerant when you have no opposition, innit?

No, it actually makes it a whole lot easier. Especially when the people of Mecca had oppressed him and his small number of followers for nearly 2 decades.

[annihilation]

Too afraid or secretly agreeing with thier "extremist" bretherens?


If thats the case let the clash of civilization begin.......nukes for all our enemies.

[Sixpints]

So, to prove their point that the islam is a religion of peace they threathen to blow up all of gaza's churches?!?

Is there no one in the whole muslim community who realizes how utterly absurd and ridiculous this is?

Is there no one in the whole muslim community whe realizes that the muslims are making a complete arse of themselves, again?

[getl0st]

I'm declaring a Jihad on thin-skinned muslims

[shire19]

So, to prove their point that the islam is a religion of peace they threathen to blow up all of gaza's churches?!?

Is there no one in the whole muslim community who realizes how utterly absurd and ridiculous this is?

Is there no one in the whole muslim community whe realizes that the muslims are making a complete arse of themselves, again?

You have a few thousand of Muslims that protested in Pakistan, India, Indonesia and Turkey. Then there is the officials and religious leaders that condemned it. And then you have the radicals who resort to violence because thats all they know (Palestinian militants in this case).

And then you have the rest of the billion+ Muslims who are probally in disagreement with the Pope in his way of words as they should be but are instead going on about their bussines and daily lives because they don't want to damage the Islamic image across the world anymore than it already is.

But by some of the comments in this thread, the trouble-makers are once again seen as the voice of Islam.

[Herrmannek]

I avoided this topic.. But if anybody cares for my opinion. Its clearly a politicaly fueled matter, one or two middleage quotes taken from the context that were later in the same speach debunken by the pope itself... This is clear sign that muslims in general aren't ready to join civilised world on the equal terms yet, and war with terror born in the arab regions can last for century, two or even more.. No easy solutions, esspecialy western world is easily infitrated by terrorists so the isolatsioninsm will not work at all...

[CSAR]

Most or at least large portion of those people can barely read, they have almost no education what so ever and they are poor. Because they have almost nothing but their identity and religion, no wonder if it's easy to make them go nuts if someones tells that they have been insulted whether or not it's true. I don't think the question is if Islam is "religion of peace" or not. Few hundred years ago people were burned alive in Europe too for religious reasons, but it doesn't mean that christianity is violent religion but that people were uneducated savages and human rights weren't invented yet. All you have to do is visit a european country and some middle eastern country to see if we are on the same line. It should be obvious that we are not, they are at least hundred years behind us and reasons for this are much more complex than that we are/were christians and they are muslims.

I my opinion religious leader such as Pope should be extremely careful what he says. He should just concentrate controlling his own group of loonies and keep radical statements to himself. Throwing gas to the fire won't help anyone.

[kosse]

Good post CSAR. Pope should stay on his own lawn..and if he gets killed by some extremist it's not going to be good for any of us. After that we would have catholic fundies attacking muslims and tensions would rise into a new dimension.

[signatory]

Pope 'deeply sorry' over Islam speech reaction
17/09/2006 - 11:37:02



Pope Benedict XVI today said he was “deeply sorry” about the angry reaction sparked by his speech about Islam and holy war.

He stressed the text did not reflect his personal opinion.

“These (words) were in fact a quotation from a Medieval text which do not in any way express my personal thought,” Benedict told pilgrims at his summer palace outside Rome.

He noted that the Vatican secretary of state on Saturday had issued a statement trying to explain his words, which he delivered Tuesday in a speech during a pilgrimage to his native Germany.

“I hope that this serves to appease hearts and to clarify the true meaning of my address, which in its totality was and is an invitation to frank and sincere dialogue, with great mutual respect.”

Speaking about his pilgrimage last week, he said: “At this time I wish also to add that I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims”.

http://breaking.examiner.ie/2006/09/17/story277110.html

---
not going to be enough...

[praetorian6]

The Pope has nothing to be sorry for. I wonder how many of the people burning/shooting/bombing/protesting had listened to the entire speech or have read it? I wonder how many of these people realize that their actions/reactions are a hundreds of times more damaging to their religion then anything the Pope could say?


not going to be enough...

It's never going to be enough.

[Drako]

The rage mong muslims was caused not because Pope's speech was offensive but because muslim religious leaders said it was offensive. Also I blame media which cut one sentence out of context and published only it, not the whole text. It can't come to the point we will be stepping like on the glass around muslims. I wonder why ie. NYT doesn't see that because of such stand the new type of terrorism was created. Terrorism commited not by organisations but by whole nations. It's some kind of blackmail - you don't do what we want, we burn your flag, burn churches, don't buy your products and attack your officials. If west keep kneeling before them everytime they go out on the street, it will go worse. There's a rule not to negotiate with terrorists. Governments should learn not to negotiate with the mob as well. This world doesn't belong to muslims and they must become aware of that or else soon we'll all pray in the mosque with a sword hanging above our necks.

[Snoshi]

Well one Iranian newspaper claimed that it USA and Israel stood behind the Popes speech.

[annihilation]

I'm declaring a Jihad on thin-skinned muslims

You filled out the 36D Jihad form in triplicet?

[AztecMex]

Well one Iranian newspaper claimed that it USA and Israel stood behind the Popes speech.

They use what ever they can just to kill every one and say its right.There going to say kill the americans and destroy israel they are with the pope.

[Dronetek]

but when an appolagy is asked when they burn and stomp Israel and US flags (jews+christians) it's automatically considered "rude, inappropriate, generalizing, asking way too much" ?

Because the people who say those things are morons.

[Drako]

Tension is raising with every passing month. What I think is that if no adequate steps are taken it will blow into our faces within few years. Somehow current situation reminds me what happened in 1938 - western countries are hiding their heads in the sand while bad things are going on just in front of their noses. What I see is some kind of war of cultures. We can't win this war by force, muslims can. Right now we're losing.

[timetraveller]

The Media like the internet can play a audience like those hooked watching a film , too many will believe anything nowadays without finding the facts out for themselves first !!

[Lazy Lob]

Most or at least large portion of those people can barely read, they have almost no education what so ever and they are poor. Because they have almost nothing but their identity and religion, no wonder if it's easy to make them go nuts if someones tells that they have been insulted whether or not it's true. I don't think the question is if Islam is "religion of peace" or not. Few hundred years ago people were burned alive in Europe too for religious reasons, but it doesn't mean that christianity is violent religion but that people were uneducated savages and human rights weren't invented yet. All you have to do is visit a european country and some middle eastern country to see if we are on the same line. It should be obvious that we are not, they are at least hundred years behind us and reasons for this are much more complex than that we are/were christians and they are muslims.

Not quite fair. Humans that avoid reason and rational thought are also usually avoiding some sort of accountability. They go hand in hand. Religion is the perfect vessel for many of these people (fundies) blinkering themselves. So putting the blame solely on humans and not their deities is not quite correct especially when many of the “sacred” texts have pretty obvious xenophobic passages in them regardless of their interpretation.


I my opinion religious leader such as Pope should be extremely careful what he says. He should just concentrate controlling his own group of loonies and keep radical statements to himself. Throwing gas to the fire won't help anyone.

The situation, I think is fast progressing beyond our verbal moderation. It has become pretty obvious that moderation is not only solely applicable to the West but has also become an obligation.

Regardless what we say or do the current trend is that we are meant to keep quiet and grimace whilst we get shafted for whatever reason.

Sometimes “throwing gas to the fire” makes the other side realise they may suffer a few burns themselves. What is becoming blatantly obvious is that by keeping quiet and continuously saying “sorry” won’t make the nasty people disappear......quite to the contrary!

[Sixpints]

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last

One of my favorite Churchill quotes.

[vrb]

I see some brave Somalis have murdered an elderly Catholic Nun working in Mogadishu. These people are simply scum and must be wiped of the face of the Earth.

[Rubber Johnny]

Just turned on the TV earlier and saw a footage of a large muslim crowd burning a large-scale dummy of the Pope (with a stylish crate as the crown). Didn't get to hear where did that occur.

[CSAR]

The situation, I think is fast progressing beyond our verbal moderation. It has become pretty obvious that moderation is not only solely applicable to the West but has also become an obligation.

Regardless what we say or do the current trend is that we are meant to keep quiet and grimace whilst we get shafted for whatever reason.

Sometimes “throwing gas to the fire” makes the other side realise they may suffer a few burns themselves. What is becoming blatantly obvious is that by keeping quiet and continuously saying “sorry” won’t make the nasty people disappear......quite to the contrary!

I agree with you that apologising isn't the right way. We are free to say what we want, even if it might hurt someones feelings. It's disturbing that some of the muslim leaders seem to be desperately seeking conflict with west about trivial things like this, and the last thing we should do is kneel before them.

However person like the Pope has some weight in his words, and as we can see they can be misinterpreted to reflect the views of whole western world (when in fact most of us don't give a damn about the whole church). Therefore I would expect extreme cautiousness from him. I'm sure he doesn't like Islam much, and the same thing with other religions, protestants, nonbelievers, gays, abortion and all the other numerous things that are classified as "sinful". However it would be foolish from him to make a big thing about it.

[CSAR]

I see some brave Somalis have murdered an elderly Catholic Nun working in Mogadishu. These people are simply scum and must be wiped of the face of the Earth.

Doesn't sound like a very exeptional thing in a "country" that has been controlled by group of warlords for last ten years. I don't have statistics but I'd guess a lot of people are murdered, raped and beaten there for various reasons every day.

[vrb]

She was working and murdered in a hospital that she had been working in for quite some time. These events are directly related to the Pope especially as one of the hardline clerics theere yesterday had stated that Somalis everywhere should hunt the Pope down and kill him.

[Jaeger07]

Quite frankly, this matter is doing more wrong for the muslims than for the pope.

We saw the same stupidity after the "muhammed cartoons".


Muslims are, like one post allready points out, living in a social state far behind europe in time. I dont see why any western leader of any organisation should apologize for something like this. The reactions are, as I see it, inevitable - and will in the long run only harm the muslims themselves.

A few muslims need a good smacking... others just need education, like this guy: http://www.dailymotion.com/visited/search/iraq/video/x4jj0_what-women-think

[Rubber Johnny]

However person like the Pope has some weight in his words, and as we can see they can be misinterpreted to reflect the views of whole western world (when in fact most of us don't give a damn about the whole church). Therefore I would expect extreme cautiousness from him. I'm sure he doesn't like Islam much, and the same thing with other religions, protestants, nonbelievers, gays, abortion and all the other numerous things that are classified as "sinful". However it would be foolish from him to make a big thing about it.

True, someone with a religous scale as large as the Pope's should be carefull with his own words. The problem here that there wasn't any problem with his word's, but with what the extreme muslims wanted to hear. The pope, as stated numerous times already, remembered to state twice that he is quoting something.

That being said, let's suppose the Pope's words were his opinion on the Islam, and he meant to insult it. Let's even take it to a more simplistic level and suppose that the Pope said "Islam is a violent religion".
What's the point for the Islamic people to demonstrate this claim wrong, by proving it right? Wouldn't it be the same if you murder someone just to prove you're not a murderer?

[CSAR]

She was working and murdered in a hospital that she had been working in for quite some time. These events are directly related to the Pope especially as one of the hardline clerics theere yesterday had stated that Somalis everywhere should hunt the Pope down and kill him.

So instead of other ethnical or religious groups they are this week killing christians. I don't see the difference here compared to their normal routines.



A few muslims need a good smacking... others just need education, like this guy: http://www.dailymotion.com/visited/search/iraq/video/x4jj0_what-women-think

x2
And that guys opinion about women isn't much different from what some fundamental christians think.

[tyovan]

Ignorant, fundamentalist Muslims are the greatest enemy that Muslims in general face. 10 years ago, most people on the street wouldn't have cared about Islam one way or the other. Now, when we in the West watch the news or read the paper - every week some Muslims are bitching about something new. 'We're being discriminated against, you're out to get us, you're not respecting our sensibilities, etc'.. Now Western civilians are being targeted by Islamic fanatics.

Anti-Islamic sentiment is increasing everday when Westerners hear Muslims bitching about the latest thing. They seem incapable of civil debate -their way of solving problems is burning cars, having mass demonstrations to burn effigies, and hacking off peoples heads.

Sooner or later, if conditions like these continue to exist or end up escalating, the people in the West are going to decide that Muslims are no longer worth dealing with - the West will have had enough eventually..

When the West snaps, WWII is going to look like a picnic..

[darkhon]

Religion of peace


A HARDLINE cleric linked to Somalia's powerful Islamist movement has called for Muslims to "hunt down" and kill Pope Benedict XVI for his controversial comments about Islam.

Sheikh Abubukar Hassan Malin urged Muslims to find the pontiff and punish him for insulting the Prophet Mohammed and Allah in a speech that he said was as offensive as author Salman Rushdie's novel The Satanic Verses.

"We urge you Muslims wherever you are to hunt down the Pope for his barbaric statements as you have pursued Salman Rushdie, the enemy of Allah who offended our religion," he said in Friday evening prayers.

Iraqi based terror group threaten Vatican and Rome (http://www.news.com.au/sundayheraldsun/story/0,21985,20426263-5005961,00.html)
"We swear that we will destroy their cross in the heart of Rome ... and that their Vatican will be hit and wept over by the Pope," said Jaish al-Mujahideen (the Mujahideen's Army) in the statement, whose authenticity could not be confirmed.

"We will not rest until your thrones and your crosses have been destroyed on your own territory," said the group, which has claimed many attacks against US and government forces in Iraq.

http://ibloga.blogspot.com/2006/09/muslims-prove-pope-wrong.html


Religion of peace, indeed...

[Lazy Lob]

However person like the Pope has some weight in his words, and as we can see they can be misinterpreted to reflect the views of whole western world ........

And that's exactly it. They are counting that our perceived view their "misinterpretation" will affect our actions. They are masters of the media.

We have been socially castrated by "liberals" who don’t even know how to find their arses for a crap.




Fex sake darkon you're going to get the thread locked. Git.

[darkhon]

LazyLob (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/member.php?u=6374), at least I'm not PC. http://www.israel-forum.org/images/smilies/2/cowboy.gif

[CSAR]

And that's exactly it. They are counting that our perceived view their "misinterpretation" will affect our actions. They are masters of the media.

We have been socially castrated by "liberals" who don’t even know how to find their arses for a crap.

I think that the liberals are onlyones who are seeing this thing in right light; that there is no "us" and "them" in this but a couple of powerful religious fanatics controlling a bunch of uneducated poor people who have nothing to lose. In reality there is no conflict between east and west, islam and christianity, in large scale eventhough that's what these people would want. They try to influence our opinions and actions to get the black and white world they want, and at some extend it seems to be working very well especially with religious conservatives.

I think we shouldn't give a damn. They burn some flags and dolls, so what? It doesn't affect our lives in any concrete way. They tend to talk big that part of world but usually it ends there. And if they really manage to hit us some way, we just crush them down whoever they are and teach some proper mannors.

[Rubber Johnny]

I think we shouldn't give a damn. They burn some flags and dolls, so what?

Some burn flags and dolls, some fewer send their kids to explode somewhere in a crowd of people. These people are influental on varying levels.

[Graspol]

A few muslims need a good smacking... others just need education, like this guy: http://www.dailymotion.com/visited/search/iraq/video/x4jj0_what-women-think



:cantbeli: I think this bloke knows my wife p-)

[CSAR]

Some burn flags and dolls, some fewer send their kids to explode somewhere in a crowd of people. These people are influental on varying levels.

How many terrorist strikes made by muslims have there really been in western countries? Handful, and most of them have been done by small groups of radical individuals. And this isn't really anything new as there were small communist/socialist terrorist groups doing similar things before. I don't see there isn't much choise, either we live our lives and let the police in intelligence agencies do their best, or we start suspecting every single muslim which is exactly what these terrorists want as it will create religius tensions.

[IraGlacialis]

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last


...only to get struck in the heart by a stingray barb. :)

You guys do know that once something new turns up, the radicals will quit bitching about the Pope's statement to bitch about that new subject. It's like they have ADD. They were complaining about the Danish comics for a few weeks or so, then complained about the Lebennon incident else later on, now they are complaining about this.
All in all, the bitchers and terrorists are tarnishing Islam and the reputations of most muslims to an almost unrecognizable level. Muhammed must be gyrating in his grave right now.

Update-Pope's response accepted by some Muslims (http://www.yahoo.com/s/266105)

[annihilation]

Curious, if the vatican or pope is attack. What kind of situation will that bring to the world?

[americanbychoice]

Some of the knee-jerk reactions to the Pope's speech... understandable because it's exactly what we have come to expect from certain parts of the Muslim world.

What surprises me are the voices of "moderate" Muslims who have come out against the Pope, in support of the "small number" of extremists who have flipped out for no good reason.

I thought those "Extremists" were not representative of the Muslim faith... so why make excuses for the stupid behavior of these unreasonable people?

...

As for what happens if the Pope or the Vatican is attacked...

An insane Muslim man from Turkey did try to assassinate John Paul II, firing several point blank shots at the Pope... BUT somehow the Pope avoided a mortal injury and survived (quasi-miraculous at that range), and the Pope later forgave the man. (As for why the guy tried to kill the Pope, there are a few theories... Muslim extremism probably not the reason).

I don't think that Muslim extremists could drag the Catholic church into a Holy War in this day & age... besides which, there are very few Catholic nations in these times, and very few of them would be at all likely to heed the call to war.

[getl0st]

My solution... 50.4 Billion Virgins

[California Joe]

Are there more Catholics than Muslims? What if we all went Boondock Saints on their ass everytime one of the Islamic self styled leaders ran his cockholster about killing all infidels? I believe in tolerance of all religions and peaceful coexistance. Not sure that is possible but there should be a single standard of conduct for all leaders of every religion.....

[daily666]

You see CJ, it's a problem because unlike Muslims, Catholics have only one "Chief" on earth and usually all the faithful follow the word of the Vatican. Now, here are thousands of imams around the world who lead the prayers on every friday, preaching their religion in the righteous way. But because there is no one interpretation of Quran some part of them spread extremism and hatered towards, well, Us. There's also one more thing, I came back from Egypt two weeks ago where I had an occasion to carefully watch and talk about the world political issues going. Imams not only preach during the prayers but also speak about all the other issues, whether it's a community problem or the political agenda. What you see on the streets, burning flags, crossess and churches, are a direct acs of will of radical imams and religoius scholars who told their followers to do so. It's not their own will. It's exactly what I have heard from the Egyptians themselves. The anti-western propaganda is available everywhere, from newspapers to newschannels, from internet to music videos on arabic version of MTV (yes, I'm not kidding!). I have spoken to some great people there and they have told me that most of the society really blame US/Israel/Christians/you name it/ for their misery and evil going on around them. Also, the conspiracy theories are alive and doing well. So really I'd like to believe in religious coexistance but honestly, in these times it's us who are being violently attacked, not muslims.

I've also found this interesting
http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/4231/coexistencecl6.jpg

[americanbychoice]

You see CJ, it's a problem because unlike Muslims, Catholics have only one "Chief" on earth and usually all the faithful follow the word of the Vatican.
You're a Pole? So you're probably Catholic, or raised as Catholic?

So you know how much we defer to the Pope every day as Catholics... i.e. we don't constantly invoke the name of the Pope, and our local parrish Priest is far more important in the day-to-day spiritual matters of faith.

Also, having a Pope has not eliminated problems with our Catholic faith... i.e. the child abuse scandals here in the United States & the problems with asshole Irish "Catholic" (and anti-Catholic) terrorism, just as two examples.

So in my amateur opinion, I don't think that Muslims having a single religious authority (call him a Caliph or whatever) would solve anything of the present non-religious "religious" problems with "Islam"-ism.

Now, here are thousands of imams around the world who lead the prayers on every friday, preaching their religion in the righteous way. But because there is no one interpretation of Quran some part of them spread extremism and hatered towards, well, Us. There's also one more thing, I came back from Egypt two weeks ago where I had an occasion to carefully watch and talk about the world political issues going. Imams not only preach during the prayers but also speak about all the other issues, whether it's a community problem or the political agenda. What you see on the streets, burning flags, crossess and churches, are a direct acs of will of radical imams and religoius scholars who told their followers to do so. It's not their own will. It's exactly what I have heard from the Egyptians themselves.
Until people recognize that the capacity to change is only within themselves, they won't change... so if it is not their own will that they do these things & submit to these thoughts, then they probably won't elevate themselves beyond their current circumstances.

Personal responsibility, anyone?

The anti-western propaganda is available everywhere, from newspapers to newschannels, from internet to music videos on arabic version of MTV (yes, I'm not kidding!). I have spoken to some great people there and they have told me that most of the society really blame US/Israel/Christians/you name it/ for their misery and evil going on around them. Also, the conspiracy theories are alive and doing well. So really I'd like to believe in religious coexistance but honestly, in these times it's us who are being violently attacked, not muslims.
If certain people are outraged about the Pope supposedly making bad comments in one direction, what about comments from one's own people towards us folk who live in Dar al-Harb?

EDIT: To say it plainly, where's the outrage from Muslims about intolerant language used by Muslims towards non-Muslims (especially when the message of the Pope's speech was about tolerance towards & dialogue between other faiths)?

/frustrating... not with you, but with these sorts of images of the Muslim world... but I still have hope in interfaith dialogue & communication, provided that there are people who actually heard the Pope's message. Anyone who didn't hear what he actually said will probably never hear, IMO.

[Bandeirante]

Found this:
Major Religions of the World (mid-2005 est.)4



Christian 2,133,806,000
Roman Catholics1,118,991,000
Independents*425,170,000
Protestants375,815,000
Orthodox219,501,000
Anglicans79,718,000

Muslims1,308,941,000
Hindus860,133,000
Chinese Universists 404,921,000
Buddhists378,808,000
Sikhs25,377,700
Jews15,073,000

*This term denotes members of Christian churches and networks that regard themselves as postdenominationalist and neo-apostolic and thus independent of historic, mainstream, organized, institutionalized, confessional, denominationalist Christianity.




Major Muslim Countries of the World
(% of population)1


CountryMuslim (%)Afghanistan99Albania70Algeria99Azerbaijan93Bahrain81Bangladesh83Brunei67Burkina Faso50Chad51Comoros98Djibouti94Egypt90Gambia, The90Gaza Strip99Guinea85Indonesia88Iran98Iraq97Jordan92Kuwait85Kyrgyzstan75Lebanon60Libya97MaldivesSunni Muslim Mali90Mauritania100Mayotte97Morocco99Niger80Nigeria50Oman75Pakistan97Qatar95Saudi Arabia100Senegal94Sierra Leone60SomaliaSunni MuslimSudan70Syria74Tajikistan90Tunisia98Turkey99.8Turkmenistan89United Arab Emirates 96Uzbekistan88West Bank75YemenMuslim
[Index (http://www.wholesomewords.org/missions/greatc.html#index)]
Major Roman Catholic Countries of the World
(% of population)1


CountryRoman Catholic (%)Argentina92% (about 20% practicing)Austria74Belgium75Belize50Bolivia95Brazil74 (nominally)Burundi62Chile89Colombia90Congo, Democratic Republic of the 50Costa Rica76Croatia88Cuba85 (nominally) Dominican Republic 95East Timor90Ecuador95El Salvador83France83-88Guadeloupe95Guam85Haiti80 (half of population
practices Voodoo)Honduras97Hungary52Ireland88Italy- primarily Roman Catholic Lithuania79Luxembourg87Malta98Martinique85Mexico89 (nominally)New Caledonia60Nicaragua73Panama85Paraguay90Peru81Philippines81Poland90 (about 75% practicing)Portugal94Puerto Rico85Reunion86Rwanda57Slovakia69Slovenia58Spain94Uruguay66 (nominally)Venezuela96 (nominall


http://www.wholesomewords.org/missions/greatc.html#muslims

[annihilation]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060917/wl_nm/somalia_italian_dc_3

looks like 1 person has died so far over this.......rip

[dimasorokine]

1. Pope makes a speech and mentions something negative about the prophet...

2. ME media blows things out of proportion...

3. Local extremists declare this to be a war on Islam for their own sick pleasure/interests...

4. The public goes with the flow and protests.

A proven formula,

-Dima

[sikh_warrior]

whats wrong in pope's words? he said nothing but the truth!

we as Sikhs have the first hand experience of forced islamic conversion when india was invaded by islamic armies.

sikhs became soldiers to resist and fight the forced islamic conversions happening in india at that time.

that was the rise of khalsa, the army of pure, to fight and resist islam being forced upon indians.

Sikh's last and tenth Guru Gobind Singh said in his declaration "When all other means have failed, It is but lawful to take to the arms(weapons)."

It was the emblem of manliness and self-respect and was to be used only in self-defence, as a last resort. thats exactly what sikhs did to fight the islamic invasion of india.

those indians who were weak and were from lower part of the society accepted the islam and became muslims, and Sikhs who resisted and fought islam became KHALSA!

so why do muslims cry and shout when the truth was told my pope?

[vrb]

Totally agree. People seem to think that Islam was only in conflict with the West over the crusades. If you look to the Eastern boundaries then you will see the amount of savagery perpertrated by Muslim invaders in the Indian subcontinet and beyond. It was not unusual for entire cities to be burnt, temples looted and destroyed and populations murdered in the name of Islam.

Another thing....all this whinging and street protesting is good.... It stops them from going round suicide bombing.

[sikh_warrior]

all religions belive in co existence of other religions, why Islam doesnt?

why Islam calls other religion as infidels??

which religion has highest number of suicide bombers ready to be blown up??

which religion promises virgins in heaven if you blow up urself and people of other faiths???

Muslims belives in religion with boundries!!! they are never loyal to the country, but their religion!!

now you understand why british muslims are not loyal to UK??

pickup any conflict in the world and you will have muslims as one of the warring side!!!!

[Blumenteufel]

Welcome to the new cold war ladies and gentlemen.

Not being a religious person at all I´m all for the pope here, it´s time to end the appeasement towards people who regard the ability to make a compromise as weakness.

I remember that chinese saying "May you live in interesting times" and that´s what we all certainly do...seriously I think I´ve not spent 4 years in the army for nothing, this will go further until a new world order is created, the Umma, China and India being the new players on the block while our leaders ( Talking about the EU here ) argue about agricultural subsidies...

[perdurabo]

whats wrong in pope's words? he said nothing but the truth!

we as Sikhs have the first hand experience of forced islamic conversion when india was invaded by islamic armies.

sikhs became soldiers to resist and fight the forced islamic conversions happening in india at that time.

that was the rise of khalsa, the army of pure, to fight and resist islam being forced upon indians.

Sikh's last and tenth Guru Gobind Singh said in his declaration "When all other means have failed, It is but lawful to take to the arms(weapons)."

It was the emblem of manliness and self-respect and was to be used only in self-defence, as a last resort. thats exactly what sikhs did to fight the islamic invasion of india.

those indians who were weak and were from lower part of the society accepted the islam and became muslims, and Sikhs who resisted and fought islam became KHALSA!

so why do muslims cry and shout when the truth was told my pope?
the best thing my friend is that BXVI didn't said this but quoted midleages Cesar of Konstantinopole, it was some academic lecture and this quotation was only part of it and those stupid f* started killings i think world should say them enough and hit them hard, mayebe they will woke up.

[Lazy Lob]

10 demands from Christians (http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=753wmv&ak=null)

[STIG]

10 demands from Christians (http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=753wmv&ak=null)

linky no worky....pal :|

[jojo]

Found an interesting article in a UK newspaper giving quotes from the Koran. 1. "Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home" 2. " Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends". 3. Muslims are ordered to fight against those of other faiths "until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued". Now, it is true that Christianity also had a history of intolerance. The difference is that we have moved on, whilst Muslims believe that the Koran is the word and will of Allah, and as such it cannot be altered in any way but, rather, followed exactly. So we end up in the 21'st century under attack by people following a creed and code written in the 7'th century. Now that's scary! Their aim is the Islamification of the entire world. The terror attacks, murders, "riots" etc are used by their leaders to cowe us into a humiliating silence and submission, and I have NO doubt that the coming years will be even worse. Our "liberal" leaders seem blind to the fact that we are at war, and if not dealt with firmly NOW then God help future generations.

[winchester_down]

the pope accidently insults islam and its prophet mohammed

by saying they have a tendancy towards violence , and what happens

protestors commit acts of harsh violence, it really speaks for itself

[budgie]

The problem is that many Muslims - largely in the Arab Street - believe that their culture and religion are beyond reproach. Not only did they not read/listen to the Pope carefully (he was not attacking Islam, even unintentionally) but their first reaction was the usual "Death to the unbelievers."

Islam is not incompatible with freedom of speech and non-believers in non-Islamic, free countries should be free to say what they want about the religion. We have no obligation to them , to their prophets or Imams and they have no moral authority to demand capital punishment for 'insulting Islam' from half a world away.

What they do have the right to do is ask for clarification, hope for an apology and make their complaints heard in a reasonable civilised manner. However I didn't see many Edward Saids on the news. All I saw was a bunch of adults throwing hissy fits like spoiled eight-year-olds.

[kosse]

the pope accidently insults islam and its prophet mohammed


Pope's speech writers make no such mistakes.

[getl0st]

10 demands from Christians (http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=753wmv&ak=null)

That was great, especitially the last bit where he ask's if Mohammad is made of different stuff to the rest of mankind because Mohammad is allowed to do things everyone else isn't allowed too.

[getl0st]

I think the Pope sucked them in, he knew they were going to chuck a spack attack and look like a bunch of D!ckheads to the rest of the world.

[Lazy Lob]

linky no worky....pal :|

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=753wmv&ak=null

and while you're at it take a butchers.................how about an apology from these guys to Christians.

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=992wmv&ak=null

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=624wmv&ak=null

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=413wmv&ak=null

[Group9]

What I would like to know:

Do the non-militant, non-violent, non-suicide bombing, non-murdering, tolerant muslims, not speak out against these other muslims because;
a. they are scared of them, or,
b. they do support them and what they are doing, but don't want to come out and say it because they are just not ready to go that far yet, needing and wanting to do business with, live in, and otherwise interact with the west?

It seems to me it has to be one or the other and I just wonder which one it is.

[Bandeirante]

As I wrote before in another thread I think the Pope was right in His quotation and the Pope, as any other free citizen, has the right to express an interpretation about a religious or historical fact.
It's interesting to see how people from the other side of the world as our Sikh friend and people from the Balkans have the same idea of Islam as our people had from Iberia. Every society that was or is a frontier to Islam has a history of war and resistance. We are in America because our forefathers led the fight against Islam and as far as I am concerned Portugal was the first society in the world to get rid of Islam by the same way that islam arrived, by the sword. If we could defeat Islam when our people was a small community, nowadays we are one of the biggest countries of the world in Brazil and we don't care about Islam here in our continent.

[Dronetek]

What I would like to know:

Do the non-militant, non-violent, non-suicide bombing, non-murdering, tolerant muslims, not speak out against these other muslims because;
a. they are scared of them, or,
b. they do support them and what they are doing, but don't want to come out and say it because they are just not ready to go that far yet, needing and wanting to do business with, live in, and otherwise interact with the west?

It seems to me it has to be one or the other and I just wonder which one it is.

They are scared of them, just like the media.

[kosse]

They are scared of them, just like the media.
Plus non-violent and peaceful muslims won't sell papers nor make "breaking" news.

[shire19]

What I would like to know:

Do the non-militant, non-violent, non-suicide bombing, non-murdering, tolerant muslims, not speak out against these other muslims because;
a. they are scared of them, or,
b. they do support them and what they are doing, but don't want to come out and say it because they are just not ready to go that far yet, needing and wanting to do business with, live in, and otherwise interact with the west?

It seems to me it has to be one or the other and I just wonder which one it is.

Depends, in this particular case with the Pope? No, they don't. Whats the point in counter-protesting everytime some Muslims in the East get violent in their "demonstrations". The authorities should take care of them.

If you mean protesting terror in general, from 9/11 to the bali bombings then yeah it has happend and plenty of it and moderates still continue to this day.

[shire19]

whats wrong in pope's words? he said nothing but the truth!

we as Sikhs have the first hand experience of forced islamic conversion when india was invaded by islamic armies.

sikhs became soldiers to resist and fight the forced islamic conversions happening in india at that time.

that was the rise of khalsa, the army of pure, to fight and resist islam being forced upon indians.

Sikh's last and tenth Guru Gobind Singh said in his declaration "When all other means have failed, It is but lawful to take to the arms(weapons)."

It was the emblem of manliness and self-respect and was to be used only in self-defence, as a last resort. thats exactly what sikhs did to fight the islamic invasion of india.

those indians who were weak and were from lower part of the society accepted the islam and became muslims, and Sikhs who resisted and fought islam became KHALSA!

so why do muslims cry and shout when the truth was told my pope?

The Pope wasn't telling the truth, he was trying to make a point regarding forcefull conversion in religion. The quote by the emperor that he used was hardly anything but the truth.

[daily666]

You're a Pole? So you're probably Catholic, or raised as Catholic?

Yes I'm a Pole and a catholic.


10 demands from Christians (http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=753wmv&ak=null)

Very, very insightful mate. Thanks for providing that. Koptic church is the oldest christian church in the world, and however we don't always agree on the matters of faith this guy really points out the real problems between Islam and Christianity.

[kosse]

As I wrote before in another thread I think the Pope was right in His quotation and the Pope, as any other free citizen, has the right to express an interpretation about a religious or historical fact.


But as stated propably a million times he should be extra careful what he says. Pope is seen as a leader of the christian world in muslim countries - which he of course isn't but that's how it is viewed there. This is because of the fundamental difference in our cultures...the religion comes before the state there unlike in western world. So he shouldn't give fuel to extremists. At least I don't like the idea of our societies (that have nothing to do with catholic church) suffering because of some old codger's ramblings. If he continues to intentionally provoke muslims he goes straight in the lead over Osama in my Top 10 terrorist list.

[daily666]

The Pope wasn't telling the truth, he was trying to make a point regarding forcefull conversion in religion. The quote by the emperor that he used was hardly anything but the truth.


Which quote? This one?


Pope BXVI Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".


So you're saying Islam never forced it's way with a tip of the sword?

[Creeper]

Yes I'm a Pole and a catholic.



Very, very insightful mate. Thanks for providing that. Koptic church is the oldest christian church in the world, and however we don't always agree on the matters of faith this guy really points out the real problems between Islam and Christianity.

good post there Daily666. I will never hesitate to announce my Italian-Spanish hertiage and that I am a Catholic.

If I am 2 days late: IMHO; We are in a war of religion not teriorism.
Just my rant. thanks.

[shire19]

Which quote? This one?

So you're saying Islam never forced it's way with a tip of the sword?

Your making the mistake of misinterpreting my words again. If you look closely at the quote he mentions that everything 'new' that Muhammad has brought to the world was only evil and inhuman and goes on to provide an example of such acts (in this case conversion by the sword). This is incorrect as its not even half true.

Arab tribes were constantly at war with each other for the most simplistic reasons, he ended this by uniting them under Islam. He also provided rights for women that had none before he arrived. From marriage rights to rights to own property. He set standards of laws and rules that were to be followed in times of war and peace.
We non-muslims believe he wrote the Quran and there is no way that the parts in there are all evil and inhuman.

This does not mean Islamic conquests never included forcefull conversions, but that does not mean all of them were led by the sword (See Indonesia, Malaysia, Brunei)

[kosse]

If I am 2 days late: IMHO; We are in a war of religion not teriorism.

Yeah. Well I don't give damn if catholic and muslim fundies all kill each other as long as you won't pull others to it.

[vrb]

What gets me is that extremist scum are allowed to protest outside Westminster Cathedral and call for the trial and death of the pope under Sharia law. The police shouldn't let them get away with this sort of thing. Mad rabid demonstrator today, suicide bomber tomorrow. The answer to these 5th columnists in our midst is obvious: kidnap, shoot, bury.

[Dronetek]

The Pope wasn't telling the truth, he was trying to make a point regarding forcefull conversion in religion. The quote by the emperor that he used was hardly anything but the truth.

I dont know. Havent muslims pretty much proved his point for him??


But as stated propably a million times he should be extra careful what he says. Pope is seen as a leader of the christian world in muslim countries -

Yet, we know that has nothing to do with the response by muslims. You do remember the cartoon? That wasnt done by anyone special and it didnt stop muslims from going on a a rampage.\


. If he continues to intentionally provoke muslims he goes straight in the lead over Osama in my Top 10 terrorist list.

I'm sorry, but thats the dumbest thing I've ever read. Your excuse that this is all because of the popes stature is pretty weak seeing as how muslims go ape**** everytime ANYONE critisizes them.

[shire19]

I dont know. Havent muslims pretty much proved his point for him??


No, forcefull conversions are something many of us are aware of when it comes to Islamic conquests aswell as Christian conquests. He did not try to paint Islam into some-kind of an evil religion nor try to defame it.

He simply choose to take Islam as an example by quoting that emperor. He could've used Christianity as an example and he would still have an valid point to make but instead he choose Islam and obiviously did not want to target his own religion.

[kosse]

I'm sorry, but thats the dumbest thing I've ever read. Your excuse that this is all because of the popes stature is pretty weak seeing as how muslims go ape**** everytime ANYONE critisizes them.

Now if Pope stayed on his own lawn this never would have happened. So why do religious leaders even need to comment on other religions as it will most likely only cause anger? What does it have to do with their own religion? I don't see how it is in any way related to religious practise.

[daily666]

Your making the mistake of misinterpreting my words again. If you look closely at the quote he mentions that everything 'new' that Muhammad has brought to the world was only evil and inhuman and goes on to provide an example of such acts (in this case conversion by the sword). This is incorrect as its not even half true.


Yes but than he pointed out that "The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable." All faiths shire! He also stresses out that "Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...". I emphasize on the word Whoever.

[daily666]

double post

[shire19]

His spoken words are great and all and probally said with the truest intentions and he's right (the Emperor) but why use Islam as an example? He is a Christian, why not check his own backyard first? And this is only regarding the forcefull conversions.

The statement on Muhammad's bringings to the world that he considered to be all evil and inhuman is still incorrect as history proves him wrong.

[getl0st]

Islam is just looking for relevance in a world where they aren't relevant anymore.

It's 2006 people, not the Dark Ages.

[Dronetek]

His spoken words are great and all and probally said with the truest intentions and he's right (the Emperor) but why use Islam as an example? He is a Christian, why not check his own backyard first? And this is only regarding the forcefull conversions.

The statement on Muhammad's bringings to the world that he considered to be all evil and inhuman is still incorrect as history proves him wrong.

Why did he use Islam as an example? Gee, I dont know? Perhaps its because the muslims are the ones blowing themselvs up in the name of their religion? Could it be because when anyone critisizes Islam people end up being killed? Maybe it has something to do with Imamas all over the world praching hate and violence to its population? Quit acting like his comments have no relevance just because you dont want to face the truth.


The statement on Muhammad's bringings to the world that he considered to be all evil and inhuman is still incorrect as history proves him wrong.

Do you live on earth? Have you not noticed how muslims go on rampages and killing sprees anytime anyone says anything negative about Islam? Its like you live in your own litttle fantasy world.

[jojo]

His spoken words are great and all and probally said with the truest intentions and he's right (the Emperor) but why use Islam as an example? He is a Christian, why not check his own backyard first? And this is only regarding the forcefull conversions.

The statement on Muhammad's bringings to the world that he considered to be all evil and inhuman is still incorrect as history proves him wrong.
I just want to be sure about what you're saying here -- are you saying that Mohammed and those who did and do follow his "creed" have NOT brought "evil and inhumanity" to the world? And that history proves this? I'd be obliged if you'd clarify.

[shire19]

Why did he use Islam as an example? Gee, I dont know? Perhaps its because the muslims are the ones blowing themselvs up in the name of their religion? Could it be because when anyone critisizes Islam people end up being killed? Maybe it has something to do with Imamas all over the world praching hate and violence to its population? Quit acting like his comments have no relevance just because you dont want to face the truth.

Do you live on earth? Have you not noticed how muslims go on rampages and killing sprees anytime anyone says anything negative about Islam? Its like you live in your own litttle fantasy world.

FFS! Learn to ****ing grasp my replies before hitting the reply button. I'm not gonna bother explaining everything over again. Your fault if you can't ****ing comprehend it.


I just want to be sure about what you're saying here -- are you saying that Mohammed and those who did and do follow his "creed" have NOT brought "evil and inhumanity" to the world? And that history proves this? I'd be obliged if you'd clarify.

Thats not what I'm saying no, I'm simply implying that not everything that Muhammad has brought to this world was evil and inhuman. I'd go as far as to say that his 'evil and inhuman' acts are in the minority when compared to all his actions (and I mean Muhammad alone, not his followers).

[Bandeirante]

Our People, State, Culture, Language and Religion was in a Total and Mortal War against Islam some Centuries ago in Iberia, North Africa, the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf, the Indian Ocean, Diu, Malacca and East Timor, the last society to get rid from Islam, from Indonesia.

We have the right, conquered upon the field of battle by our Catholics Forefathers to say whatever we consider correct about Islam or any other religion.

But we must always remember that we were, and we are an extremely violent People and Society. We don't fear nobody.

And yes, we live in a modern world.

What about the general take on Islam as expressed by Camoens -- a take not different from that of Dante (see where he puts Muhammad), Shakespeare (see "Othello"), Voltaire (see "Mahomet") and, in fact, the take of every European writer for whom mental freedom was a desideratum.

[Snoshi]

Iranian spiritual leader, Ayatollah Ali Khameini said that the Pope's statements aid the creation of a religious crisis between Muslim and Christians. This was reported by Iranian news agency, Fars.


In a meeting with religious figures in Tehran, Khameini said, "We have no expectations from Bush, but the statements from the mouth of a Christian religious figure are very saddening and amazed us." According to Khameini, the US will try to use the Pope's statements in a policy framework. (Dudi Cohen)

[americanbychoice]

He simply choose to take Islam as an example by quoting that emperor. He could've used Christianity as an example and he would still have an valid point to make but instead he choose Islam and obiviously did not want to target his own religion.
I don't think that his goal in that part of the speech was to "target Islam" or "shame Islam" or "attack Islam". Why should every mention of Islam in a speech by the Pope be a word of praise or admiration?

Also, as far as "targeting" Christianity... the rest of the speech contrasts Christianity with the growth/expansion & contraction of the modern concept of Reason. Is that enough "targeting"?

...

To be fair, the Pope does also explicitly criticize the Christian faith during his speech (although perhaps not as "forcefully" as the Manuel II Paleologus' views on Islam with regards to the theme of "holy war", and the interfaith discussion which the emperor had with "an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam")...

As an example...

In all honesty, one must observe that in the late Middle Ages we find trends in theology which would sunder this synthesis between the Greek spirit and the Christian spirit.
...
God's transcendence and otherness are so exalted that our reason, our sense of the true and good, are no longer an authentic mirror of God, whose deepest possibilities remain eternally unattainable and hidden behind his actual decisions.
...
God does not become more divine when we push him away from us in a sheer, impenetrable voluntarism; rather, the truly divine God is the God who has revealed himself as logos and, as logos, has acted and continues to act lovingly on our behalf.

He also criticizes the "cult of reason" in modern thought...

This attempt, painted with broad strokes, at a critique of modern reason from within has nothing to do with putting the clock back to the time before the Enlightenment and rejecting the insights of the modern age. The positive aspects of modernity are to be acknowledged unreservedly: we are all grateful for the marvellous possibilities that it has opened up for mankind and for the progress in humanity that has been granted to us. The scientific ethos, moreover, is - as you yourself mentioned, Magnificent Rector - the will to be obedient to the truth, and, as such, it embodies an attitude which belongs to the essential decisions of the Christian spirit. The intention here is not one of retrenchment or negative criticism, but of broadening our concept of reason and its application. While we rejoice in the new possibilities open to humanity, we also see the dangers arising from these possibilities and we must ask ourselves how we can overcome them. We will succeed in doing so only if reason and faith come together in a new way, if we overcome the self-imposed limitation of reason to the empirically verifiable, and if we once more disclose its vast horizons.
...
... perhaps Pope Benedict could have stated his intentions more clearly and more forcefully regarding the quote from emperor Paleologus.

I still don't think that the quotation warrants such criticism, especially given the entire speech & the complete context of the quote from the emperor.

/if "ifs and buts" were like candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas

[perdurabo]

american do you have full text of Benedetto speach?

[daily666]

american do you have full text of Benedetto speach?

Here you go perdurabo:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_09_06_pope.pdf

:)

[foxtrot023]

I got a question to our brit members- Does british law allow to pick up people that foment violence, like the sorry twats protesting in the UK and calling for the murder of the Pope?

[americanbychoice]

Here's the Vatican website with the speech...

I like it better because it's not a PDF & doesn't clog up my system with the damn Acrocrap Reader.

Here's the Vatican web site & the speech that the Pope made...
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html

[Lazy Lob]

I got a question to our brit members- Does british law allow to pick up people that foment violence, like the sorry twats protesting in the UK and calling for the murder of the Pope?

It allows it but it's up to the powers that be to apply it.....and they never do unless you're a European or a native Brit. I would like a more enforced application of our laws regardless of the political mood of the day. For that we have elections and a parliament and not Cherie's PMT mood swings. Oh and we are signed up to the ECHR which buggers things about a tad more.

[thscott83]

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g145/thscott/rageometer.jpg

[mailmannz]

I got a question to our brit members- Does british law allow to pick up people that foment violence, like the sorry twats protesting in the UK and calling for the murder of the Pope?

Yes, there are a number of laws that protect citizens from other citizens who formet violence and racism.

Unfortunately though those laws are about as useful as **** on a bull as long as the police do not enforce them to the fullest...witness the first cartoon protest here in London and the protest on Sunday outside Westminster Abbey where Sea Food Choudry called for the pope to be murdered.

Somehow though, if you stood outside a mosque and called for mohamud to be murdered that the police would be so lenient with you!

Mailman

[STIG]

Gotta love the irony here, the pope criticizes Islam's violence and Islam reacts violently to it.

[NewsMan]

Maybe the Catholics can just call it even since, afterall, a Muslim Turk shot the last pope?

[Kilgor]

Gotta love the irony here, the pope criticizes Islam's violence and Islam reacts violently to it.

its a self feeding cycle

Leader, political figure, newspaper makes reference about Islam and its disproportionate level of voilence

Islamic world responds in a orgy of voilence

Repeat...

[Group9]

The good thing about statements like the Pope's, is that the militant Muslims just can't help coming out and re-enforcing the notion that we are going to have to deal with these people, whether we want to or not.

[sikh_warrior]

i was on trip to london recently and saw "Islamic Bank Of Britain"!!

has the islamisation of Britain started????

guys u need to keep these slims under check and not let them USE democratic excuse to shout and cry, cus they dont have democracy back home, they come to western countries and cause the damage!

[getl0st]

This was the front page of our local paper.



Islam, violence go hand in hand: Pell
19th September 2006, 8:00 WST

Australia’s most senior Catholic has launched a stinging attack on Muslims, saying their aggressive reaction to the Pope’s recent comments about Islam highlighted the link between their religion and violence.

As the world braced for more Muslim anger over Pope Benedict’s remarks, Cardinal George Pell said “the violent reactions in many parts of the Islamic world” justified one of the Pope’s main fears.

“They showed the link for many Islamists between religion and violence, their refusal to respond to criticism with rational arguments, but only with demonstrations, threats and actual violence,” the Sydney Archbishop said yesterday.

He also described as “unfortunately typical and unhelpful” attacks on the Pope’s comments by two prominent local Muslims, Sheikh al-Hilaly, the Mufti of Australia, and Dr Ameer Ali, of the Government’s Muslim advisory committee.

Security was increased around the Pope yesterday, despite his apology for the offence taken by Muslims for his quoting of a medieval emperor that linked Mohammad to violence.

In Somalia, Italian nuns were evacuated from Mogadishu after the weekend murder of one of their colleagues amid the international Muslim fury.

The slain nun, Sister Leonella, 65, one of the longest-serving foreign members of the Roman Catholic Church in Somalia, worked at a charity hospital.

Cardinal Pell began his statement by saying it was a sign of hope that no organised violence had flared in Australia following Pope Benedict’s comments.

“Our major priority must be to maintain peace and harmony within the Australian community, but no lasting achievements can be grounded in fantasies and evasions,” Cardinal Pell said.

He detailed his criticisms of Sheikh al-Hilaly and Dr Ali. “Sheikh al-Hilaly often responds to criticism by questioning the intelligence and competence of the questioner or critic,” he said. “So too with the Pope, whose speech he claimed was not what was expected of a holy person and indeed ‘the Church needs to re-examine its thoughts about someone who doesn’t have the qualities or good grasp of Christian character or knowledge’.”

Cardinal Pell criticised Dr Ali for misunderstanding the Pope’s speech. “Dr Ameer Ali’s published reply was more surprising as it called on Pope Benedict to be more like Pope John Paul II than Pope Urban II, who called the First Crusade,” he said.

“In fact, the Pope’s long speech was more about the weaknesses of the Western world, its irreligion and disdain for religion and he explicitly rejected linking religion and violence. He won’t be calling any crusade.”
Sheikh al-Hilaly said the language used by Cardinal Pell was “not helpful”. “The point is Pope Benedict quoted a most inappropriate quote at a most inappropriate time,” he said.

The head of the world’s Anglican Church also stepped up to defend the Pope yesterday.

Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, spiritual leader of 77 million Anglicans worldwide, said Pope Benedict had been right to apologise for the offence caused but his comments should be taken in context.



Source ==> http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=28&ContentID=7201

[Kleistmaster]

i was on trip to london recently and saw "Islamic Bank Of Britain"!!

has the islamisation of Britain started????

guys u need to keep these slims under check and not let them USE democratic excuse to shout and cry, cus they dont have democracy back home, they come to western countries and cause the damage!

most idians dont have cars so you dont care about oil but for western its different. :)

[sikh_warrior]

i dont understand this>>>

why do western countries allow slims migration to their countries and then get into trouble???

i think we have too much of democracy in western countries as to allow the slims to come to their countries and then make trouble.

in india we have too much of democracy as to allow these slims to practice sharia law rather then follow the law of the land as the rest of the communities do!

if slims are not happy with western countries, better ask them to go back to where they came from!

they come to live in west to get a good living standard, free social support from govt and rest of the facilities and then on the top they dont inetgrate into that country and are not at all loyal to it!

learn the truth about slims and wake up guys!

[sikh_warrior]

most idians dont have cars so you dont care about oil but for western its different. :)

if you keep yourself updated on current news in the world>>India and China are the world's growing economies and they are more hungry for OIL then some western countries!!

BMW and VW are the latest of open their manufacturing plants in INDIA!

i do expect to see B52 Bombers on middle east once the OIL is finished and alternative technology is in use for transport!

[Kleistmaster]

if you keep yourself updated on current news in the world>>India and China are the world's growing economies and they are more hungry for OIL then some western countries!!

BMW and VW are the latest of open their manufacturing plants in INDIA!

i do expect to see B52 Bombers on middle east once the OIL is finished and alternative technology is in use for transport!


sorry i think you ll be dead for a while before their oil reserves are finished

what alternative technology are you using or planing to use in india for transport?

[sikh_warrior]

well sure i will be dead and long gone before the OIL finishes!

we are a developing nation, so we still depend on the technology from developed countries. so in case of alternative for OIL we dont have our own technology, we still depend of developed countries.

as for your information> not all the people in all the countries have cars!

[Kleistmaster]

well sure i will be dead and long gone before the OIL finishes!

we are a developing nation, so we still depend on the technology from developed countries. so in case of alternative for OIL we dont have our own technology, we still depend of developed countries.

as for your information> not all the people in all the countries have cars!

i typed "islamic bank of india" in google for fun :)

do you have islamic banks in india?

has the islamisation of India started????

[sikh_warrior]

Islamisation of india will never happen!

no islamic bank of india exists!

[shire19]

I don't think that his goal in that part of the speech was to "target Islam" or "shame Islam" or "attack Islam". Why should every mention of Islam in a speech by the Pope be a word of praise or admiration?

Also, as far as "targeting" Christianity... the rest of the speech contrasts Christianity with the growth/expansion & contraction of the modern concept of Reason. Is that enough "targeting"?

...

To be fair, the Pope does also explicitly criticize the Christian faith during his speech (although perhaps not as "forcefully" as the Manuel II Paleologus' views on Islam with regards to the theme of "holy war", and the interfaith discussion which the emperor had with "an educated Persian on the subject of Christianity and Islam")...

As an example...


He also criticizes the "cult of reason" in modern thought...

... perhaps Pope Benedict could have stated his intentions more clearly and more forcefully regarding the quote from emperor Paleologus.

I still don't think that the quotation warrants such criticism, especially given the entire speech & the complete context of the quote from the emperor.

/if "ifs and buts" were like candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry Christmas

I didn't mean target as in attack but fair enough. I don't believe the Pope was trying to insult Islam in any way either but his choice of words were just not appropiate in my opinion. He would've been better off with just generalizing religion as a whole but whats done is done.

I do believe the quotation warrants criticism though, especially when quoting an Emperor who labeled all of Islam as pure evil that ran an Empire who had a policy of shipping Muslims off their land if they didnt choose to convert (this was not forcefull though).

[emocqo]

Rage against the pope

[Kleistmaster]

Islamisation of india will never happen!

no islamic bank of india exists!

http://www.indiaclub.com/shop/SearchResults.asp?ProdStock=15492

http://www.iiff.net/index.cfm?page=content&contentid=112

[sikh_warrior]

its islamic banking that is mentioned in the address you posted. there is no bank called islamic bank of india YET!!!

though india has the 2nd highest population of muslims in the world after indonasia.

[Pytheas]

http://cache.*****images.com/xc/71905156.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=08A8BA3C818346D0E41668375B03077B

Dhaka, BANGLADESH: Activists from the Islamic organization "Bangladesh Khelafat Andolon" shout slogans against Pope Benedict XVI during a protest in Dhaka, 16 September 2006. Around 1,000 Muslims protested Pope Benedict XVI's remarks on Prophet Muhammad outside Bangladesh's main mosque, witnesses said. Pope Benedict provoked worldwide outcry with comments 12 September, during a visit to his native Germany in which he talked about the "issue of jihad, holy war" a term used by Islamic extremists to justify acts of terror. AFP PHOTO/ Farjana K. GODHULY






http://cache.*****images.com/xc/71905153.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=08A8BA3C818346D0BF4F36CF303202B0

NABLUS, -: Palestinian Greek Orthodox priest George Awad inspects the damage made to the walls of his church after it was hit by firebombs in the West Bank city of Nablus. Molotov cocktails were thrown at two churches early today, without causing any casualties, in protest to the pope's comments in which he implicitly criticised connections between Islam and violence. The Vatican said that Pope Benedict XVI was "extremely sorry" for offending Muslims in his speech this week. AFP PHOTO/JAAFAR ASHTIYEH





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Palestinian supporters of Hamas carry the party's flags as they shout slogans and carry banners against Pope Benedict XVI during a demonstration in Gaza City.A wave of Muslim outrage swept the globe today after the Pope linked Islam with violence.(AFP/Mohammed Abed)





http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g145/thscott/capt-27.jpg

Black-veiled Muslim women activists of Dukhtaran-e-Millat, or Daughters of the Community, take out a procession against the Pope in Srinagar, India, Saturday, Sept. 16, 2006. Police detained nearly two-dozen Muslim protesters Saturday as demonstrations against Pope Benedict XVI's remarks on Islam continued for the second straight day in the Indian portion of Kashmir. (AP Photo/Dar Yasin)





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Supporters of Bangladesh Khelafat Andolon, an Islamic group, shout during a protest rally against a comment made by Pope Benedict, in Dhaka September 16, 2006. Pope Benedict is sorry Muslims were offended by a speech on Islam that provoked fury around the world and led to calls for the leader of the Catholic church to apologise, an aide said on Saturday. *******/Rafiqur Rahman (BANGLADESH)





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Activists of the pro-Pakistani Dukhtaran-e-Milat (Daughters of Faith) shout slogans against Pope Benedict XVI during a protest in Srinagar. Benedict voiced deep regret at outraged Muslim reaction to a speech he gave in Germany, but stopped short of retracting his remarks, arguing they had been misinterpreted.(AFP/Tauseef Mustafa)





http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g145/thscott/capt-29.jpg

Flames are seen at the entrance of an Anglican church hit by a firebomb in the West Bank city of Nablus, Saturday Sept.16, 2006. Palestinians wielding guns, firebombs and lighter fluid attacked four churches in the West Bank town of Nablus on Saturday, while gunmen opened fire at a fifth in Gaza, following remarks by Pope Benedict XVI that many Muslims view as disparaging. (AP Photo/Nasser Ishtayeh)





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A Palestinian fire fighter sprays water on the door of a Catholic church after it was hit by a firebomb in the West Bank city of Nablus September 16, 2006. Palestinian gunmen attacked churches in the West Bank and Gaza Strip on Saturday after a day of protests against comments Pope Benedict made about Islam. Five churches came under attack in the West Bank city of Nablus, where militant groups have long been the dominating force. *******/Abed Omar Qusini (WEST BANK)






http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g145/thscott/capt-30.jpg

Female Kashmiri Muslim supporters of pro-Pakistani Muslim League Jammu Kashmir (MLJK) shout slogans against Pope Benedict XVI during a protest in Srinagar. British Muslims welcomed Benedict's expression of regret for any offense he caused during a speech last week in Germany, but some feared his remarks fell short of a full apology.(AFP/Sajjad Hussain)





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Angry Pakistani Muslims chant slogans after setting on fire the effigy of Pope Benedict XVI during a rally to condemn Pope's remarks, Saturday, Sept 16, 2006 in Karachi, Pakistan. Pakistan's Foreign Ministry has summoned the Vatican's ambassador to express regret over the pope's recent remarks about Islam, as Parliament passed a resolution condemning the comments. The banner reads 'Pope should apologize for hurting Muslims'. (AP Photo/Adnan Ali)





http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/6246/00819664pe6.jpg

NABLUS - WEST BANK - PALESTINE
epa00819664 Priest Yousuf Sade displays empty bullet caskets following an attack at a church in the West Bank city of Nablus, Saturday, 16 September 2006. Molotov cocktails were thrown at four Christian churches early today, without causing any casualties, in protest to the popes comments in which he implicitly criticised connections between Islam and violence. Pope Benedict XVI is deeply sorry that his controversial remarks about Islam earlier this week may have caused offence, the new Vatican secretary of state Tarcisio Bertone said Saturday in Rome. EPA/ALAA BADARNEH
EPA / STF / ALAA BADARNEH






http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g145/thscott/capt-32.jpg

A Palestinian worker fixes the damage to the wall of a Greek Orthodox church hit by a firebomb in the West Bank city of Nablus, Saturday Sept. 16, 2006. Two West Bank churches were hit by firebombs early Saturday, and a group claiming responsibility said it was protesting what many Muslims view as disparaging remarks about Islam by Pope Benedict XVI. (AP Photo/Majdi Mohammed)





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Pope Benedict XVI, pictured, voiced deep regret at outraged Muslim reaction to a speech he gave in Germany, but stopped short of retracting his remarks, arguing they had been misinterpreted.(AFP/File/Vincenzo Pinto)

[Pytheas]

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g145/thscott/r2600460346.jpg

An Iraqi priest delivers a sermon during Sunday mass at a Roman Catholic church in Baghdad September 17, 2006. Iraq's government called on Muslims on Saturday not to attack the country's small Christian minority in response to remarks by Pope Benedict that have angered Muslims. *******/Mahmoud Raouf Mahmoud (IRAQ)





http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g145/thscott/r1256470727.jpg

Iraqi Muslim women join other Iraqi Christians during Sunday mass at a Roman Catholic church in Baghdad September 17, 2006. Iraq's government called on Muslims on Saturday not to attack the country's small Christian minority in response to remarks by Pope Benedict that have angered Muslims. *******/Mahmoud Raouf Mahmoud (IRAQ)






http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g145/thscott/r9293245.jpg

An Iraqi woman prays at a Roman Catholic church in Baghdad September 17, 2006. Iraq's government called on Muslims on Saturday not to attack the country's small Christian minority in response to remarks by Pope Benedict that have angered Muslims. *******/Mohammed Ameen (IRAQ)






http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g145/thscott/capt-43.jpg

An Iraqi woman lights a candle after Sunday mass, in Baghdad, Iraq, Sunday Sept. 17, 2006. Iraq's biggest political parties on Sept.16, 2006, condemned comments by Pope Benedict XVI on Islam, with the main Sunni party warning confrontation with the Islamic world could lead to violence between Muslims and Christians. In the early 1980s, Iraq's Christian population numbered 1.4 million, but now many of them have left following Churches attacks in 2004 and regular threats by insurgents. (AP Pohto/Hadi Mizban)






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Pope Benedict XVI raises his arms as he looks at the rainy sky, during the Angelus address to the faithful in hi summer palace in Castel Gandolfo, on the outskirts of Rome, Sunday Sept. 17, 2006. The pontiff said Sunday he was "deeply sorry" about the angry reaction sparked by his speech about Islam and holy war and said the text did not reflect his personal opinion. "These (words) were in fact a quotation from a Medieval text which do not in any way express my personal thought," Benedict told pilgrims in Castel Gandolfo. (AP Photo/Pier Paolo Cito)






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In this photo provided by the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano on Saturday, Sept. 16, 2006, Pope Benedict XVI reads his speech at Regensburg University in Germany on Tuesday, Sept. 12, 2006. On Saturday the pope said that he "sincerely regrets'' that Muslims have been offended by some of his words in a recent speech in Germany, the Vatican said Saturday amid demands for apologies from much of the Islamic world and some reports of violence. Man at left is unidentified. (AP Photo/L'Osservatore Romano, HO)







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Sheik Nor Barud, right, vice chairman of the Somali Muslim Scholars' Association, listens to Sheik Ahmed Bile, an Islamic courts official, left, Sunday, Sept. 17, 2006, during a press conference in Mogadishu, Somalia. Barud, an influencial ideological backer for the Islamic Courts, vehemently condemned Pope Benedict XVI's speech on Islam and holy war. (AP Photo/Mohamed Sheikh Nor)






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Somali friends of late nun Leonella (only first name available) wait at the hospital, Sunday, Sept 17, 2006. An Italian nun was shot dead at a mothers' and children's hospital by unidentified Somali gunmen, doctors said Sunday. Hospital doctor Mohamed Yusuf said the nun was shot in the back. The nun's bodyguard was also killed, doctors told The Associated Press. The nun, who has not been identified, was shot at the entrance to the hospital in northern Mogadishu by two gunmen armed with pistols, Dr. Yusuf said . (AP Photo/Mohamed Sheikh Nor)






http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/dailypix/militarypix/fresh/31128998.jpg

Friends of late nun Leonella (only first name available) walks towards the hospital to see the body, Sunday, Sept 17, 2006. An Italian nun was shot dead at a mothers' and children's hospital by unidentified Somali gunmen, doctors said Sunday. Hospital doctor Mohamed Yusuf said the nun was shot in the back. The nun's bodyguard was also killed, doctors told The Associated Press. The nun, who has not been identified, was shot at the entrance to the hospital in northern Mogadishu by two gunmen armed with pistols, Dr. Yusuf said . (AP Photo/Mohamed Sheikh Nor)






http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/dailypix/militarypix/fresh/31129007.jpg

The body of late nun Leonella (only first name available) in the hospital, Sunday, Sept 17, 2006. An Italian nun was shot dead at a mothers' and children's hospital by unidentified Somali gunmen, doctors said Sunday. Hospital doctor Mohamed Yusuf said the nun was shot in the back. The nun's bodyguard was also killed, doctors told The Associated Press. The nun, who has not been identified, was shot at the entrance to the hospital in northern Mogadishu by two gunmen armed with pistols, Dr. Yusuf said . (AP Photo/Mohamed Sheikh Nor)






http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/dailypix/militarypix/fresh/31128317.jpg

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Palestinian Greek Orthodox worshiper, Samir Mitri, cleans an icon at the burnt Greek Orthodox church in the West Bank town of Tulkarem, Sunday Sept. 17 2006. The stone church built 170 years ago was torched before dawn and its entire inside was destroyed, local Christian officials said. The church is one of two West Bank churches that were set afire early Sunday as a wave of Muslim anger over comments by Pope Benedict XVI construed as anti-Islam grew throughout the Palestinian areas. (AP Photo/Majdi Mohammed)






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Pakistani Muslims hold a rally to condemn Pope's remarks, Saturday, Sept 16, 2006 in Lahore, Pakistan. Pakistan's Foreign Ministry has summoned the Vatican's ambassador to express regret over the pope's recent remarks about Islam, as Parliament passed a resolution condemning the comments. (AP Photo/K M Chaudhry)






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Palestinian militants from Islamic Jihad stand as protection in front of a Roman Catholic church in the northern West Bank village of Al-Zababedah near Jenin town, Sunday, Sept. 17, 2006. Members of the militant Islamic group in the village claimed that they would prevent anyone from vandalising Christian sites in the area. Two West Bank churches were set afire early Sunday as a wave of Muslim anger over comments by Pope Benedict XVI construed as anti-Islam grew throughout the Palestinian areas. (AP Photo/Mohammed Ballas)






http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/dailypix/militarypix/fresh/31128221.jpg

A Palestinian militant from Islamic Jihad stands as protection in front of the Deir Al Lateen Roman Catholic church in the northern West Bank village of Al-Zababedah near Jenin town, Sunday, Sept. 17, 2006. Members of the militant Islamic group in the village claimed that they would prevent anyone from vandalising Christian sites in the area. Two West Bank churches were set afire early Sunday as a wave of Muslim anger over comments by Pope Benedict XVI construed as anti-Islam grew throughout the Palestinian areas.(AP Photo/Mohammed Ballas)

[Pytheas]

TULKAREM, WEST BANK - SEPTEMBER 17: Palestinian Christian Samir Mitri reads from the liturgy as he cleans religious books and icons in the burnt-out Greek-Orthodox church of Mar Gerias September 17, 2006 in the predominantly Muslim town of Tulkarem in the West Bank. The stone church, which was built 170 years ago, was gutted by a fire as a wave of Muslim anger over comments by Pope Benedict XVI on Islam grew throughout the Palestinian areas and the Muslim world. The early morning fire, one of two on Sunday in the West Bank, followed attacks on five churches in the West Bank and Gaza a day before on Saturday September 16, 2006.



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[Pytheas]

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An man burns an effigy of Pope Benedict and a German flag during a demonstration in Basra city, south of Iraq September 18, 2006. (Atef Hassan/*******)




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Pakistani religious student takes part in a march, holding a placard, right, reads, 'Muslim rulers hence take notice,' to condemn the anti-Islam remarks of Pope Benedict XVI which hurt the sentiments of Muslims, Monday, Sept 18, 2006 in Islamabad, Pakistan. Protests continued to demand that Pope apologize fully for his remarks on Islam and violence.(AP Photo/Anjum Naveed)




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A girl attends a protest against remarks by Pope Benedict in Amman September 18, 2006. *******/Muhammad Hamed (JORDAN)





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Activists and supporters of militant Indonesian Muslim group Front for Defenders of Islam (FPI) shout slogans against Pope Benedict XVI during a demonstration in front of the Holy See embassy in Jakarta. Pope Benedict XVI's personal apology for criticising Islam has failed to stem anger in some parts of the Muslim world despite calls for calm from Islamic and Western leaders.(AFP/Jewel Samad)




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An Iraqi man burns a white effigy of Pope Benedict during a demonstration in Basra city south of Iraq September 18, 2006. Chanting slogans and burning a white effigy of Pope Benedict, some 150 demonstrators in the Iraqi Shi'ite city of Basra demanded a papal apology on Monday for comments that have offended many Muslims worldwide. *******/Atef Hassan (IRAQ)




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Indian policeman throw stones during a protest against Pope Benedict in Srinagar September 18, 2006. Shops, businesses and most schools closed in Kashmir's main city on Monday in response to a strike call by separatists to protest over comments Pope Benedict made about Islam. *******/Danish Ismail (INDIAN-ADMINISTERED KASHMIR)




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Kashmiri protesters throw stones during a protest against Pope Benedict in Srinagar September 18, 2006. Shops, businesses and most schools closed in Kashmir's main city on Monday in response to a strike call by separatists to protest over comments Pope Benedict made about Islam. *******/Danish Ismail (INDIAN-ADMINISTERED KASHMIR)




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This undated photo provided Sunday, Sept. 17, 2006 by the family of Sister Leonella, shows Italian nun Sister Leonella in Rezzanello di Gazzola, near Piacenza, Italy. Gunmen killed Sister Leonella and her bodyguard Sunday at the entrance of the hospital where she worked in Mogadishu, Somalia, officials said _ an attack some feared could be linked to Muslim anger toward Pope Benedict XVI. (AP Photo/Courtesy of family, ho)






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Catholic Christians pray for nun Sister Leonella at the Holy Family Basillica in Nairobi, Monday, Sept. 18, 2006. The elderly nun who was gunned down at the hospital where she worked in Somalia's capital Mogadishu was 'specifically targeted before being executed by gunmen lying in wait,' a hospital official said Monday. There was no claim of responsibility for Sunday's shooting, but many fear it could be linked to worldwide Muslim anger toward Pope Benedict XVI. In a speech last week, the pope quoted a Medieval text calling the Prophet Muhammad's teachings 'evil and inhuman. (AP Photo/Sayyid Azim)

[jojo]

i dont understand this>>>

why do western countries allow slims migration to their countries and then get into trouble???

i think we have too much of democracy in western countries as to allow the slims to come to their countries and then make trouble.

in india we have too much of democracy as to allow these slims to practice sharia law rather then follow the law of the land as the rest of the communities do!

if slims are not happy with western countries, better ask them to go back to where they came from!

they come to live in west to get a good living standard, free social support from govt and rest of the facilities and then on the top they dont inetgrate into that country and are not at all loyal to it!

learn the truth about slims and wake up guys!
Couldn't agree more! Blair lets zillions of those who want to kill me into MY country and they repay living off MY taxes by trying to kill me! My revenge comes at the next General Election!

[Geezah]

Somethign that may have been addressed before went through my mind last night. If men are promised virgins if and when they die during their so called Holy War, what do the women get if they do the same thing?????

Honest question just never thought about it before.

[ed316]

Why would you want to do a virgin? It's not that good.

[Pytheas]

Why would you want to do a virgin? It's not that good.

lol, good question! :)

[shire19]

Somethign that may have been addressed before went through my mind last night. If men are promised virgins if and when they die during their so called Holy War, what do the women get if they do the same thing?????

Honest question just never thought about it before.

Men are not promised virgins nor are the women. The closest thing resembling an physical being is whats described in the Quran as hur meaning the pure and beatifull ones.
Islam sees it as something that is not known to this world and man has never witnessed. Hur apperantly can also mean white grapes depending on the translation.

So since virginity is something mankind is known too, it will not be part of these physical beings.
And yes, both men and women will get to enjoy the benefits of paradise equally as is stated in the Quran.

[nimer bortuqaal]

so women can enjoy equal benefits later on, but for now they are treated like slaves/farm animals? what a screwed up religion.

[Pytheas]

Men are not promised virgins nor are the women. The closest thing resembling an physical being is whats described in the Quran as hur meaning the pure and beatifull ones.

Well, I think they are being promised virgin women indeed... :roll:

http://oam.risco.pt/img/RanOutOfVirgins-439_384.jpg

[shire19]

so women can enjoy equal benefits later on, but for now they are treated like slaves/farm animals? what a screwed up religion.

No, women are equal to men in Islam. Just because some communities and countries don't practise it doesn't mean it's solely to be blamed on the religion itself.
Most of it has to the with their cultures, For example Pakistan with their honour killings and Afghanistan with the burkha.

[Geezah]

No, women are equal to men in Islam. Just because some communities and countries don't practise it doesn't mean it's solely to be blamed on the religion itself.
Most of it has to the with their cultures, For example Pakistan with their honour killings and Afghanistan with the burkha.

The burkha was pushed by the Taliban wasn't it, didn't think it was something native to Afghanistan?

[nimer bortuqaal]

cut the crap. i see the equal rights of this religion on a daily basis. women are below dogs. women cannot talk to other men at all, get treated by a male doctor no matter what her injuries, have to wear all kinds of hotass clothing no matter what the temperature, have to stay inside if other men are around, etc., etc. this religion is the most hyprocritical thing i have ever seen in my life.

[Teme]

She gets to live with her husband. Or gets to pick one if she does not have one or he's infidel.

If a woman is of the dwellers in Paradise but her husband in this world is not, ... she is given to one of the dwellers in Paradise who is of the same status... Regarding the woman who was married to more than one man in this world, and all her husbands are dwellers in Paradise ... [The Prophet] answered: ‘She... chooses the best of them, saying, Oh Allah, this is the best of them that was with me in this world, marry me to him’... Thus it is known that the women of Paradise also have husbands. Every woman has a husband. If her husband in this world is of the dwellers in Paradise [he becomes her husband in Paradise], and if her husband in this world is an infidel, she is given to one of the dwellers in Paradise who is suited to her in status and in the [strength] of his belief”
http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/vale.htm

[nimer bortuqaal]

just like a piece of property. now nice.

[Geezah]

She gets to live with her husband. Or gets to pick one if she does not have one or he's infidel.

Bloody hell, that's not on........

[Hunterhr]

So are they done yet?

[Lazy Lob]

No, women are equal to men in Islam. ......

But whose interpretation of it?

[shire19]

The burkha was pushed by the Taliban wasn't it, didn't think it was something native to Afghanistan?

The Burkha dates back before the Taliban but it was them that made it a state policy.

[shire19]

cut the crap. i see the equal rights of this religion on a daily basis. women are below dogs. women cannot talk to other men at all, get treated by a male doctor no matter what her injuries, have to wear all kinds of hotass clothing no matter what the temperature, have to stay inside if other men are around, etc., etc. this religion is the most hyprocritical thing i have ever seen in my life.

So if someone follows the Islamic way of life it means he has to oppress his wife and deny her any rights? Why is this not happening with every Muslim family in the world then?

[americanbychoice]

I predict this thread will also be locked...

The Pope was not commenting on the whole of the idea of Jihad with reference to the "controversial" quotation from emperor Manuel II Palaeologus (i.e. not all Jihad = blowing yourself up). It was not a speech whose purpose was to condemn Islam.

I think the nature of speech is to invite dialogue, which includes rational criticism... especially with regards to this particular speech on the topic of interfaith dialogue & hellenistic reason as a partner with spiritual philosophy.

What I see in a number of those pictures from the protests is not a rational, reasoned approach to criticism... I see the opposite of reason, which "moderate" people of all faiths should denounce as extremism. Instead, many people demand apologies from the Pope instead of apologies from the extremists... which I find to be irrational and insane.

Pinning down our Muslim forum members in a unreasonable fashion is also not a fair way to conduct dialogue... not that Islam should be above reasoned criticism, but not all Muslims are extremists.

[Pytheas]

cut the crap. i see the equal rights of this religion on a daily basis. women are below dogs. women cannot talk to other men at all, get treated by a male doctor no matter what her injuries, have to wear all kinds of hotass clothing no matter what the temperature, have to stay inside if other men are around, etc., etc.

this religion is the most hyprocritical thing i have ever seen in my life.

do never forget, that it is also, the Religion of PEACE !!

:cantbeli:

[shire19]

But whose interpretation of it?

Women are mentioned quite alot in the Quran and one whole surah is dedicated to them. It's pretty hard to misinterpret it's meanings. Though it would be best to not take all of it to heart.

[nimer bortuqaal]

then you have two religions then. islam one and islam two. one has their women wear all kinds of clothing while the men wear what they want. one doesnt allow men outside of the family to even talk to a women. one has the women beat or killed if that occurs to "protect" the family's image - isnt she part of the family too? i can go on and on about islam one. islam two... i dont ever get to see that religion because it hides and isnt vocal against islam number one unless it secretly condones this kind of behavior. or maybe islam two doesnt really exist except in the committee of public relations - the face they want you to see and that islam tells you it is.

[frenchy]

what's the difference between muslim, islam and arab ?

[Herrmannek]

I'm thinking more and more that This generation of islam people is lost, they are asking for serious asswhoping and they will eventually get it if they will not realise what they are realy scandig for...