Sweden sticks to multiculturalism

[ed316]

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/printer_friendly/news_logo.gif
Sweden sticks to multiculturalism
By Laurence Peter
BBC News, Malmo, Sweden



"I speak Swedish, Arabic, Kurdish, Persian and English with my friends," says Ammar Mamand, a 12-year-old Kurdish boy living in Malmo, southern Sweden.
"But in class it's only Swedish and English."
The city of 270,000 has a diversity of cultures unlike any other in Sweden - 34% of its inhabitants have a foreign background. Many came from the former Yugoslavia, followed more recently by Iraqis and Somalis. Increasing numbers of Danes are also moving to Malmo.
Sweden has opted for multiculturalism, rejecting the assimilation model of neighbouring Denmark, which has one of Europe's toughest policies on immigration.
Almost 12% of Sweden's nine million people were born abroad - a high percentage compared with other countries in Western Europe and a significant block of voters in Sunday's general election.
Immigration has not figured prominently in the election campaign, as the main parties focused on jobs.
The two issues are related, however, as many immigrants will be hoping that the next Swedish government delivers more jobs. The official unemployment rate is nearly 6% - but the opposition claims it is higher.
Struggle for jobs
Sweden's traditional tolerance, neutrality and generous welfare may appear attractive to many newcomers. But the language is a big hurdle for most and in Malmo the unemployment rate among immigrants is much higher than the national average.

"Fighting discrimination is difficult because it's a matter of mentality and attitudes are slow to change," says Iranian-born Parwin Carami, integration co-ordinator for Malmo.

In recent years the nationalist Sweden Democrats party - which wants an ethnically homogenous Sweden - has boosted its electoral support.
It won 1.4% in the 2002 election, making it the largest party not to win a seat in the Riksdag (parliament). At the same time, it boosted its municipal council seats from eight to 49.
Sweden's experience of immigration differs greatly from that of the UK or France, where large-scale immigration started earlier and new arrivals usually came from former colonies, speaking the host language.


Malmo suffered a sharp economic downturn in the mid-1990s, coinciding with high immigration. That meant that rapidly "unemployment got an ethnic dimension," the city's mayor Ilmar Reepalu says.
Some 3,000 immigrants come to Malmo each year, but the city only has housing for about 1,500, he told BBC News.
Overcrowding
The Rosengard area of the city is where many new arrivals go first.

Mayor Reepalu says overcrowding is a problem because many asylum seekers choose to live with friends or relatives.
Sociologist Aje Carlbom warns that such "enclavisation" provides fertile ground for Islamists and "Swedish society doesn't understand what's going on because of the climate of tolerance".

Despite high unemployment in Rosengard, some enterprising individuals have made a real difference.
Ammar Mamand goes to school at the Islamic Centre in Rosengard, whose founder, Bejzat Becirov from Macedonia, takes pride in fostering openness and independence. He insists that no Muslim group is allowed to impose its agenda on the Centre.
Built in 1983, the Centre's focal point is the mosque, funded by the local community.
Most of the Centre was burnt down in a mysterious fire one night in 2003. Some fire damage is still visible in the rebuilt prayer hall.
But the Centre has recovered, providing education and other services for immigrant families.
Role models
Another pillar of the Rosengard community is Diabate Dialy Mory from Senegal - nicknamed "Dallas".
He arrived in Sweden in 1964, when there were just a few Africans in Malmo.

For decades he has run a boxing club - a magnet for immigrant boys, many of whom are struggling to settle into Swedish society.
"Some of them arrive without parents, they don't speak the language, they're outside society," he told BBC News.
"When they start boxing here, with us as brothers and sisters, they start to act differently, they start to understand that they are someone and that someone cares about them."
He has made it a rule that only Swedish is spoken at the club.
Swedish football star Zlatan Ibrahimovic - whose parents came from former Yugoslavia - is a hero for many immigrant boys in Rosengard.
Other success stories among the immigrant community include top chef Marcus Samuelsson, born in Ethiopia, and Lebanese-born film director Josef Fares.
Mayor Reepalu notes that Sweden has toughened anti-discrimination laws and is working to validate foreign qualifications. He also stresses that the demography of immigration is positive for Malmo.
"While the load of its ageing population is weighing down Sweden, our city has a young population that is in itself an investment in future welfare," he says.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/5348622.stm

Published: 2006/09/15 11:58:16 GMT

© BBC MMVI

[Resurrection]

Our only hope is if the Sweden Democrats make it into parliament, or at least get over 2.5% in the elections.

[khukuri]

Our only hope is if the Sweden Democrats make it into parliament, or at least get over 2.5% in the elections.

wtf? Are you an idiot... if that racist party get any influence theyll make it worse!

[Resurrection]

wtf? Are you an idiot... if that racist party get any influence theyll make it worse!

Oh please...

How is the party racist? Nationalism ≠ racism.

[kosse]

Oh please...

How is their party racist? Nationalism ≠ racism.

"In recent years the nationalist Sweden Democrats party - which wants an ethnically homogenous Sweden"

That does sound like a certain german party from the 30's.

From Wipedia:

Sweden Democrats (Sverigedemokraterna, SD), founded in 1988 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988) by Leif Zeilon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leif_Zeilon), is a Swedish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden) far right (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_right) political party. The party describes itself as a nationalist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism) movement and claims to dissociate itself from all forms of totalitarianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism) and racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism). Reputable observers characterize the Sweden Democrats as far-right (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right) and anti-immigrant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativism_%28politics%29), including CNN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CNN),[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-0) the BBC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-1) the Expo Foundation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expo_%28magazine%29),[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-2) the Centre for the Study of European Politics and Society,[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-hsf.bgu.ac.il) and the Stephen Roth Institute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Roth_Institute).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-3) Although the party has never received widespread support, it has for each consecutive election received an increased number of votes. It is the most popular far-right party in Sweden, having received 1.4% of the vote in the 2002 general elections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Sweden).

If this is true I can't understand why you defend organisation like that. A nazi past:

Controversy surrounding the Sweden Democrats


During the Swedish general elections (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Sweden) in 1991, the party held a meeting in Stockholm where, among others, Franz Schönhuber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Sch%C3%B6nhuber), the then leader of the German party Die Republikaner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republicans_%28Germany%29), and Anthony ******* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_*******), a British producer of anti-Semitic propaganda, gave speeches. Further, it was stated that in September 1991 a number of party members attended a meeting in London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London) where the English historian David Irving (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving) gave a speech. Combat 18 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_18) was in charge of the security during the meeting.[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-23) (Bakgrund: Bakom den demokratiska fasaden, Expo nr 3 - 1997)
During the Swedish general elections in 1991 and 1994 the party had candidates in Hedemora, Malmö, Mölndal, Sigtuna, and Stockholm who had previously been active in Nazi organisations.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-nazi1)
The first version of the youth league was initially founded in 1993, but was later disbanded by the main party after it became clear that a number of the youth league's members had Nazi political views. The members of the youth league who held those views left the party and formed a new organisation called SUNS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUNS).
Between 1993 and 1995, Robert Vesterlund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Vesterlund) was active in the party (both in the main party and, for a short time, the leader of the parties youth organization before it was disbanded). After the debacle with the youth organization, he left the party.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-nazi1)
In 1997–1998 a female party member left the party. She was the representative for the Sweden Democrats in Höör (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%B6%C3%B6r), but was at the same time somewhat involved in the National Socialist Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Front). However, she has now left political life, and made a statement in an interview in Aftonbladet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftonbladet):[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-nazi1).
In 1998 the party banned the wearing of uniforms during meetings and started to distance themselves from Nazism.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-nazi1)
During the Swedish general election in 1998 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_general_election%2C_1998) it was discovered that two of the party's candidates for municipal election in Malmö (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malm%C3%B6) had previously been members of two outspoken Nazi organisations; one was a member of the Nysvenska rörelsen (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nysvenska_r%C3%B6relsen&action=edit) and the other was a member of the National Socialist Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Front). Also, one of the party leaders in Helsingborg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsingborg) played in a white power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_power) band that had performed at the August 1998 National Socialist Front rally.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-nazi1)
During the Swedish general election in 1998, the French National Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_%28France%29) supported the Sweden Democrats financially. The then party leader Mikael Jansson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikael_Jansson) has stated that the support consisted of printing 250 000 of the party's election brochures.[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-24)[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-25)
In 2002, second vice-chairman Torbjörn Kastell (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Torbj%C3%B6rn_Kastell&action=edit) stated in a Dagens Nyheter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagens_Nyheter) interview that, as a way to counter the multicultural policies pursued by the main parties, he advocated a policy that would ban mosques, prohibit the wearing of traditional Muslim clothing in public spaces, and end the serving of special food in public schools. However, he stressed that he found it unfair that these kinds of ideas were viewed as xenophobic and racist. He felt that the policies were merely ways to assimilate immigrants into Swedish society.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-polopoly_59907)
In a speech during the 2002 election campaign the leading member Kenneth Sandberg said "Even more often it happens that dark skinned youths mug and knock down helpless elderly on their way home with their meagre pensions. Our young boys - blonde, blue eyed - are humiliated and mugged of their cell phones. A new phenomena in Sweden's history is the gang rapes of our girls.". [13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-polopoly_59907)
A Sweden Democrat holding a seat in Kristinehamn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristinehamn) left the party in 2003 after writing several anti-Semitic and Holocaust-denying letters to various authorities.[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-26)
According to the representatives of Miljöpartiet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milj%C3%B6partiet) and Folkpartiet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folkpartiet), two SD members holding seats in Trollhättan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trollh%C3%A4ttan) made several anti-Islamic remarks during a debate.[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-27)
On 22 March (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_22) 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003), the SD candidate in Helsingborg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helsingborg) was arrested by the police when he, together with several known Nazis (including the local leader of Nationalsocialistisk Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalsocialistisk_Front)) attacked an anti-racist demonstration.[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-28)
For the 2004 election to the European Parliament, the party received 200,000 SEK from the Belgian anti-Semite Bernard Mengal (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bernard_Mengal&action=edit).[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-29)[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-30)
Party secretary Tommy Funebo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Funebo) left the party in 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004) and publicly described the party as being infested by Nazis, only differing from them for tactical reasons. Being without a party program, he stated, they are only united in their hatred towards foreigners. The party leader at the time, Mikael Jansson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikael_Jansson), reacted by calling Funebo a destructive liar.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)]
In 2004, party chairman Mikael Jansson defended the so called "bergsjö letter" sent out by the SD in Gothenburg. In the letter, SD Gothenburg said they wanted to use party money to help "Swedes and brother peoples moving from areas with many immigrants." They also wanted "Bergsjön to be deivided in one multicultural part and one pure part, awaiting assimilation or repatriation of the foreign."[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-31)
At the SD's national meeting in 2004, several Gothenburg members had a background in the neo-Nazi National Democrats (Sweden) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Democrats_%28Sweden%29). The head of the election committee also had a prominent position in the Nordic Reich Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Reich_Party).[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-32)[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-33)[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-34)[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-35) He was asked to resign,[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-36)[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-37) but refused[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-38) and was later expelled.[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden_Democrats#_note-39)

[kosse]

It looks far from just nationalist to me. Unless neonazism = nationalism?

[Resurrection]

"In recent years the nationalist Sweden Democrats party - which wants an ethnically homogenous Sweden"

That does sound like a certain german party from the 30's.

So you're actually comparing SD to NSDAP? http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/7389/whoco5zo3.gif

Now you're just showing that you don't know what racism means, but no worries - it's something that you share with many people, sadly.


It looks far from just nationalist to me. Unless neonazism = nationalism?

Uhmm yeah... try not to base your claims on Wikipedia articles, especially those covering "controversial issues".

SD is probably one of the most Israel-friendly parties that you can find in Sweden.

Neo-Nazis (http://www.nsfront.info/).

[kosse]

So you're actually comparing SD to NSDAP? http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/7389/whoco5zo3.gif

Now you're just showing that you don't know what racism means, but no worries - it's something that you share with many people, sadly.

Well I might not be expert of NSDAP but it does have some similarities. Would you care to addres to controversy about the party? Is it true what they write in wikipedia? Or is it just communist slander? :roll:

[CPL Trevoga]

"In recent years the nationalist Sweden Democrats party - which wants an ethnically homogenous Sweden"

That does sound like a certain german party from the 30's.



Not true, main problem with multiculturalists like you is that they fail to realise that "trabilism" is very natural and human phenomena. It's defensive mechanism and it's deep in our subconsionsness.

[kosse]

Not true, main problem with multiculturalists like you is that they fail to realise that "trabilism" is very natural and human phenomena. It's defensive mechanism and it's deep in our subconsionsness.

I realise the problem but this party don't seem like a healthy counter reaction but an organisation with little too close ties with neonazism. At least according to wikipedia that is.

[Resurrection]

I realise the problem but this party don't seem like a healthy counter reaction but an organisation with little too close ties with neonazism. At least according to wikipedia that is.

SD started an extensive "cleanup" process a few years ago aimed at kicking out the neo-Nazis, racists, troublemakers, etc. along with a few other things. The party also introduced a contract for applying members certifying that they don't share any of the above views.

According to a Brå (Brottsförebyggande rådet) report released a few days ago, today's SD is actually the least criminally-loaded party when compared to the already established parties.

What matters are the ideals SD stand for today.

[CPL Trevoga]

I realise the problem but this party don't seem like a healthy counter reaction but an organisation with little too close ties with neonazism. At least according to wikipedia that is.

Well, if they started gasing immigrants that it would be wrong, but if Swedes dont want to live in China, Albania, Pakistan, but want to live in Sweden there is nothing wrong with that.


SD started an extensive "cleanup" process a few years ago aimed at kicking out the neo-Nazis, racists, troublemakers, etc. along with a few other things. The party also introduced a contract for applying members certifying that they don't share any of the above views.

LOL, it's called purges. That party doesn't sound like serious people IMHO.

[signatory]

Sweden need true democracy not more fundie single-issue parties like Mp, Fi, NyD, SD, SPI etc. Raise the bar to 8% and add a 1 million signature's public referendum rule. (i.e the 1.3 million signatures to lower the petrol tax that came in this week, today the signatures mean nothing. However, In direct democracy a motion would be forced to be put in front of parliament. This system is already available in the EU parliament btw)

[Resurrection]

LOL, it's called purges. That party doesn't sound like serious people IMHO.

How so?...

[kosse]

Well, if they started gasing immigrants that it would be wrong, but if Swedes dont want to live in China, Albania, Pakistan, but want to live in Sweden there is nothing wrong with that.

Well the damage has already been done. They invited immigrants in and now they have to live with that decision and it's consequences. Smart thing to do would be just shut the door quietly. Not talk about repatriation of large immigrant groups and support a party with a rather fishy past. Plus it won't be anything else than empty sabre-rattling if the large parties won't do it.

[Sniffit]

Our only hope is if the Sweden Democrats make it into parliament, or at least get over 2.5% in the elections.

You really have no idea what you are talking about do you?
The SD claim alot of stuff you shouldn't really lissten to what they say but to what they mean. So does this mean that all their ideas are bad? No they aren't, but most are way to far in some direction (It sure as hell isn't right nor is it left).

The SD see the problems in sweden just as clearly as anyone else, the problem is that they see immigrants as the sole reason for most of them. This is mainly due to the fact that they are,
1. Not that well educated
2. Doesn't like non-ethnic swedes to begin with
3. Are to damned ignorant to actually accept any other reason for the situation in sweden.

[Resurrection]

Here's a question - do you (or anyone else for that matter) see any correlation between the amount of immigrants we've taken in these past few decades and the unsuccessful integration policy along with the problems it has caused?

I do, and none of the established parties share my opinion. Is it clear to you now why I support SD?

[Sniffit]

Here's a question - do you (or anyone else for that matter) see any correlation between the amount of immigrants we've taken in these past few decades and the unsuccessful integration policy along with the problems its caused?

I do, and none of the established parties share my opinion. Is it clear to you now why I support SD?

The problem is the lack of an integration policy, not the amount of immigrants. The two main causes for the integration problems in sweden is the unflexible labour market and a policy that backfired (the million program).

The unflexible labourmarket is the main reason that unemployed people can't get jobs, this apply to both ethnic and non-ethnic swede. A flexible labour marked wouldn't necessery lead to a lowered unemplyment but would create some movement on the market and shorten the overall unemployment periods. The integration in countries with a less restrictive labour market policy are much more effective then in countries with a restrictive one.
No party will openly say that they want to modify the laws regulating the labour market, mainly the law of emplyment protection (lagen om anställningsskydd) since this would be political suicide.

The policy that backfired was the million program (miljonprogramet). The idea behind this reform/policy was that every person should be able to get a home, an apartment. The idea backfired and ended up enforcing segregation, many of the bigger parties (mainly the right wing alliance) wants to try and do something about this.

To say that "all the problems began with the increased immigration" is an overly simplified way of explaining a problem that you see, but can't understand.

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

Voting for SD would most likely scare the other parties to a more restrictive policy, and do something about the problem, unlike the current s, mp and v coalition.
SD wanting an ethnic homogenous society sounds strange, it's more or less impossible, and I doubt they would even consider that, maybe some of the real extremists do, but I doubt SD do.
Anyway we need a change S, MP and V keep on in the same tracks.
Sure all kinds of different people living side by side and getting along is a beautiful idea, but it'll require a serious effort to make it work, if it ever will. I belive the main problem is employment, without a work, how are you supposed feel like you are a part of the society, you meet people outside your ethnic group, and it's easier to learn a language that you use.

[haze99]

Sad, just sad. Western Europe seems to be pissing aways its indentity. (I am not Scandinavian. English,Scottish and American (Creek) indian.
I am at a lost as to why all these third world immigrants are coming to Sweden? Why aren't more Norwegian, Swede, Finns, Danes and Dutch immigrating to other places? Hhmmm. There is something to this? Then I find it of interest that these people come and never assimilate into Swedish, Norwegian or Danish society? Strange? I as an outsider can see that these lofty ideas have failed. And not addressing them only will cause you more problems in the future.
I wonder if Iran or Egypt would have this problem if a bunch of Swedes, Italians, or Croatians poured into their borders? ahhh, probably not going to happen! There is nothing worth emmigrating there for.

[signatory]

^ eh.

anyway, making it out like there's no difference between Mp+V+S and the alliance is false. First, the type of immigrants would change..

One suggestion is a work visa scheme in parallel to refugee asylum grants. I.e if you're not a real refugee or a worker in demand because there's a lack of skilled Swedes, you will have less of a chance to come to Sweden compared to the current system.

[stop and think]

The visa is valid 1 year at a time, if the job is lost, the person need to either find a job within 3 months or leave. After 5 years of work the person can apply for permanent residence permit.

Asylum seekers is also going to be allowed to work which they can't (!) today. Language skills and a clean record is also more important. And they want to process applications and execute deportations faster. Maybe we'll see.. they have the only reasonable policy. Not perfect, but wth..

[Sniffit]

Sad, just sad. Western Europe seems to be pissing aways its indentity. (I am not Scandinavian. English,Scottish and American (Creek) indian.
I am at a lost as to why all these third world immigrants are coming to Sweden? Why aren't more Norwegian, Swede, Finns, Danes and Dutch immigrating to other places? Hhmmm. There is something to this? Then I find it of interest that these people come and never assimilate into Swedish, Norwegian or Danish society? Strange? I as an outsider can see that these lofty ideas have failed. And not addressing them only will cause you more problems in the future.
I wonder if Iran or Egypt would have this problem if a bunch of Swedes, Italians, or Croatians poured into their borders? ahhh, probably not going to happen! There is nothing worth emmigrating there for.

Why do they come here? For the same reasons that people from sweden, norway, finland, denmark, scotland, england and holland moved to the US during the 18th-20th century.

Why don't swedes, norweigans and bla. bla. bla. move to other countries in large numbers? Well why would we?
We live in democracys, we are not oppresed, we have freedom of religion, speach and politics. Where would you like us to go?

What ideas have failed? I can count several but I want to hear you name a few.

About us pissing away our indentity and failure to assimilate other cultures.
Assimilating other cultures is, in it's basic sense, bad. It is bad because if you assimilate a culture you erradicate it and force people to live according to your ways. If you do this you will end up with very little chance for improvement, not all new things are bad, good ideas tend to survive and bad ones die as time progress and mindsets change.

If we instead of assimilating other cultures we integrate them into ours. We take the best of what they have to offer and add to our culture. Then we get richer (I am not talking in monetary terms) and they become a part of our socity and share our values.

The problem we have, atleast here in Sweden, is that we have failed to integrate them in our society. If we keep them out, if we are affraid of what is new how can we then expect them to contribute to our socity if we never stop to ask what they have to offer? If we refuse them jobs we sentence them to a life long imprisonment in shabby appartments in shabby districs living on social welfare and as a reslut of that never give them a chance to integrate with us.

[Kaapeli]

Having immigrants settle in their own overcrowded slums is/was a bad move for Sweden (Malmö is a good example). That's a sure way to slow down their assimilation and cause social problems.

Of course you can't limit peoples movements in a free country but you can offer them affordable accommodation in different locations more dispersed among the native population. A government supported rental apartment here and there even in the more wealthy areas, not all in one poor slum. Most will choose the cheapest alternative offered to them by officials no matter where it's located. If immigrants live in their own separate areas and go to their own schools they are difficult to assimilate. Dispersing forces immigrants to mingle with the native population and culture more and discourages them socializing only with people of their own ethnicity, speaking only their own language and forming ethnic gangs etc.

[PeterG]

Having immigrants settle in their own overcrowded slums is/was a bad move for Sweden (Malmö is a good example). That's a sure way to slow down their assimilation and cause social problems.

Of course you can't limit peoples movements in a free country but you can offer them affordable accommodation in different locations more dispersed among the native population. A government supported rental apartment here and there even in the more wealthy areas, not all in one poor slum. Most will choose the cheapest alternative offered to them by officials no matter where it's located. If immigrants live in their own separate areas and go to their own schools they are difficult to assimilate. Dispersing forces immigrants to mingle with the native population and culture more and discourages them socializing only with people of their own ethnicity, speaking only their own language and forming ethnic gangs etc.

As if assimilation is the goal.... You can't even say that assimilation is a good thing, you'll get your ass handed to you by the PC. There is only idiots talking of 'integration' - it doesn't work, but that's not the issue, as long as it sounds good. The biggest problem with immigration in Sweden, is that there is de facto NO debate allowed in the media, or in politics about it. The difference between Sweden and and neighbouring Denmark/Norway, is striking. To me, it looks like the idea of 'Sweden' itself, is deliberately to be wiped out - the self-hatred of the swedes is difficult to grasp for a norwegian!

[Nightsky]

Well, as a whole Sweden can't really change immigration / labor market stuff anyway. Sweden is in the EU, thus any EU member can work there freely, so you can't really avoid Germans, Danish, British, Italian, Spanish, Hungarians, Polish, Czech, Greek etc. coming to Sweden for work.

That's the first part and reality.

An effort has to be EU-wide, unless Sweden wants to leave the EU (which I doubt will happen), because accepting the Africans in Spain might mean, that they would be tolerated in Sweden as well, as soon as they or their descendants have the citizenship of a European country.

N.

[Nightsky]

the self-hatred of the swedes is difficult to grasp for a norwegian!

Well, that doesn't really surprise me - the Norwegians I got to know, even my mates, are very focused on their own country, sometimes to an extent, which isn't that rational anymore. Norway seems to be very much on the top here.
Then there's the opposite, countries like Germany, where it's definitely way more acceptable to say "I hate Germany" than "I love Germany"... Sweden seems to share a little bit of that, the way it is described.

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

I think you're right Nightsky, we seem to share a bit of Germanys guilt for WWII, maybe it would have been different if we had been occupied, maybe a few other things as well. If you criticize the way things are you get bashed with the nazi/discrimination/racist bat.

[Sniffit]

As if assimilation is the goal.... You can't even say that assimilation is a good thing, you'll get your ass handed to you by the PC. There is only idiots talking of 'integration' - it doesn't work, but that's not the issue, as long as it sounds good. The biggest problem with immigration in Sweden, is that there is de facto NO debate allowed in the media, or in politics about it. The difference between Sweden and and neighbouring Denmark/Norway, is striking. To me, it looks like the idea of 'Sweden' itself, is deliberately to be wiped out - the self-hatred of the swedes is difficult to grasp for a norwegian!

Ofcourse you can say that assimilation isn't good thing, but then you have to back it up with good arguments, specially when you call people who don't agree with you idiots. So integration does not work? Intresting, would you mind telling us why it doesn't work, what your ideas of how to make things better are? I am not trying to tease you into a flame war or anything but I would really like to hear what arguments you have to support such a bold statement.

Oh and there are debates about it, I don't know where you heard that there arn't but there are.

[signatory]

I think you're right Nightsky, we seem to share a bit of Germanys guilt for WWII, maybe it would have been different if we had been occupied, maybe a few other things as well. If you criticize the way things are you get bashed with the nazi/discrimination/racist bat.
Nah

The left is just protective of their ideology, and criticism on their immigration policy is attacked for several reasons.

Lousy integration, increased immigration, social services dependance and the big unions. Corner stones for the left to hold and increase power.

[709]

To me, it looks like the idea of 'Sweden' itself, is deliberately to be wiped out - the self-hatred of the swedes is difficult to grasp for a norwegian!

In my point of view it's not the "ethnic" swedes in general that doesn't like Sweden as it once was (what/whenever that was!). Rather it's a few people with power that set the agenda. Soft and/or PC social workers and politicians.

Most people I know or hear, (yes, mostly 'simple' workers and all ethnic swedes), share SD, and NyDemokrati when it was the **** in the early 90's, but the rascist/limited other politics scare most people from voting for them. But in general, most people say:

"Take care of us, and 'them', that are here now."

If it wasn't for Folkpartiet being busted with hacking into the Socialist partys computers, I think they would get a lot of votes since they, among other "straighten up the society"-measures, also, soft but still, want to toughen laws on immigration.

My 50 öre.

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

I belive you're right Signatory, but the compliancy with with Nazi-Germanys demands are part of the socialist arsenal.

[Luno]

I am not a big fan of the SD but I like what they are saying about the Swedish army
http://www.sverigedemokraterna.net/nyhet.php?action=fullnews&showcomments=1&id=305

btw the article is from 2005-05-08, does any one know if they still are on the same track?

[CPL Trevoga]

How so?...

Well because they had those people in the first place. Serious party would care more about money.


Well the damage has already been done. They invited immigrants in and now they have to live with that decision and it's consequences. Smart thing to do would be just shut the door quietly. Not talk about repatriation of large immigrant groups and support a party with a rather fishy past. Plus it won't be anything else than empty sabre-rattling if the large parties won't do it.

Exept for people who really need safe heaven from prosecution, i think it's a noble thing Swedes do. I think immigration is ok, but you can't have a welfare, so immigrants have no incentive to work. Plus jobs have to be there. You can just let people move in, just for sake of "multiculturalism." It can create problems.

[Kaapeli]

Exept for people who really need safe heaven from prosecution, i think it's a noble thing Swedes do. I think immigration is ok, but you can't have a welfare, so immigrants have no incentive to work.

The incentive for immigrants is work or get deported. Even in Sweden you can't just walk in and start collecting welfare: you get kicked out very quickly unless you get a job. Actually you can't even get a work permit unless you have a job offer already. No residence status either without a job.

[orange]

Resurrection: Don't you have to wait until the next election to get your voice heard anyway? :slap:

[M_S]

Our only hope is if the Sweden Democrats make it into parliament, or at least get over 2.5% in the elections.

Hey, if you want to wote on former nazis and/or criminals, then you are an ass.

[Hullebullen]

If we instead of assimilating other cultures we integrate them into ours. We take the best of what they have to offer and add to our culture. Then we get richer (I am not talking in monetary terms) and they become a part of our socity and share our values.


So what do they have to offer? Besides a kebab at the local pizzeria after a hard nights drinking?

I sure as hell didn't pick up any other influences after living a couple of years in one of the immigrant enclaves (Bergsjön, Gothenburg) while I was studying. And why would I?

Now, life there isn't exactly as bad as you would be led to believed from some of the articles posted here on MP.net regarding Sweden and its immigration. I've seen no rock pelting of ambulances, threating and beating of firemen and the similar.

Most people there kept to their own and never bothered anyone, it was a very quiet neighborhood and it did certainly not live up to to its reputation.

That's not to say there isn't problems there. The majority of grown ups aren't working. Of the Somalis who lived there, the men seemed to hang out in the cafées, talking, while the women cared for the children (well, in many cases the children did the majority of the contacts with the outside world since many of the somali women doesn't seem to speak swedish. Their kids handle everything from picking up medicine at the farmacy and paying for their groceries at the supermarket.).

But! I personally never felt at home living there. As an ethnic Swede, I felt like an outsider. I would never even think of raising a family there. Even the ethnic swedish kids from those schools are worse off compared to the rest of Sweden, in basic stuff like reading comprehension etc.

For a long time, accepting a lot of immigrants has seem to be something of a source of pride for the Swedish government. Politicians thump their chests and say:"Look at how many refugees we are sheltering each year, we are taking more than our responsibilty for helping the unfortunate", often while giving a snide remark to countries like Finland who only takes in a token of immigrants/refugees every year.

When our forefathers left for America, no handouts were given to them, they had to build their own future, and I'm pretty sure many of them fell by the wayside, trying to escape poverty in Sweden but ending up worse off.

Sheltering people from war and the similar is noble but if we are to maintain a welfare society we need to take a hard look at where we are and how we are going to pay for it in the future, and that means taking a long, hard look at the current immigrant situation, which IMO, isn't working as intended right now...

[signatory]

Regime Change 2006

I got my shoes on. Tomorrow, at least Stockholm will be conservative.

[PrinzEugen]

So what do they have to offer? Besides a kebab at the local pizzeria after a hard nights drinking?

I sure as hell didn't pick up any other influences after living a couple of years in one of the immigrant enclaves (Bergsjön, Gothenburg) while I was studying. And why would I?

Now, life there isn't exactly as bad as you would be led to believed from some of the articles posted here on MP.net regarding Sweden and its immigration. I've seen no rock pelting of ambulances, threating and beating of firemen and the similar.

Most people there kept to their own and never bothered anyone, it was a very quiet neighborhood and it did certainly not live up to to its reputation.

That's not to say there isn't problems there. The majority of grown ups aren't working. Of the Somalis who lived there, the men seemed to hang out in the cafées, talking, while the women cared for the children (well, in many cases the children did the majority of the contacts with the outside world since many of the somali women doesn't seem to speak swedish. Their kids handle everything from picking up medicine at the farmacy and paying for their groceries at the supermarket.).

But! I personally never felt at home living there. As an ethnic Swede, I felt like an outsider. I would never even think of raising a family there. Even the ethnic swedish kids from those schools are worse off compared to the rest of Sweden, in basic stuff like reading comprehension etc.

For a long time, accepting a lot of immigrants has seem to be something of a source of pride for the Swedish government. Politicians thump their chests and say:"Look at how many refugees we are sheltering each year, we are taking more than our responsibilty for helping the unfortunate", often while giving a snide remark to countries like Finland who only takes in a token of immigrants/refugees every year.

When our forefathers left for America, no handouts were given to them, they had to build their own future, and I'm pretty sure many of them fell by the wayside, trying to escape poverty in Sweden but ending up worse off.

Sheltering people from war and the similar is noble but if we are to maintain a welfare society we need to take a hard look at where we are and how we are going to pay for it in the future, and that means taking a long, hard look at the current immigrant situation, which IMO, isn't working as intended right now...

Good post Hullebullen, I have similar experiances and fully agree.
When it comes to the discussion about SD I dont think that the people who vote for them today dont see them as a viable goverment alternative, more as a way to voice concern to wich ever party they normaly vote for, on a topic that is vertially tabu in politics and media. Sort of, "Hey, were fed up, adress the problem!".

[Resurrection]

Well said Hullebullen.


btw the article is from 2005-05-08, does any one know if they still are on the same track?

Yes.


Well because they had those people in the first place. Serious party would care more about money.

But SD isn't the same party as it was 10, 15 years ago, far from it. That's what they're trying to get people to understand. Money is no longer a major concern, what's more important is a good reputation.


Resurrection: Don't you have to wait until the next election to get your voice heard anyway? :slap:

:hug:


Hey, if you want to wote on former nazis and/or criminals, then you are an ass.

Wow, then I'm an ass! Holy ****!

Where's the substance in your post? The Nazis have been kicked out, and as I said a few pages back they are, as of September 13th, actually the least criminally-loaded party when compared to the established ones in parliament. I don't see the problem - let bygones be bygones.

SD is the only serious party that advocates a restrictive and regulated immigration policy.


From Migrationsverket:

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/7605/put05ue4.gif

What you see above is a breakdown of those who recieved a permit last year.

[KalleBalleSvartSk@lle]

The incentive for immigrants is work or get deported. Even in Sweden you can't just walk in and start collecting welfare: you get kicked out very quickly unless you get a job. Actually you can't even get a work permit unless you have a job offer already. No residence status either without a job.
I depends on what kind of an immigrant you are. If you're not seeking refuge or claiming to seek refuge from something you need to have a work and/or a certain amount of money with you, but I'm not 100% clear on that.

[signatory]

The whole system is fvcked from economics to integration. The so called pomperipossa and robin hood taxes is one reason. Successful, rich provinces have to give money to unsuccessful counties.. and when it's not your own money you're not as careful about spending it right. Typically the un(s)uccessful counties accept more immigrants from the (S)tate, so they receive both state compensation and robin hood taxes from successful counties (often conservative) since they (and the state) can't create jobs for the people they bring in.

(S)yntax error!

[Gluten]

Our only hope is if the Sweden Democrats make it into parliament, or at least get over 2.5% in the elections.

ÄR DU HELT JÄVLA STÖRD ELLER!!? FITT NAZIST OCH NÄR DU SÄGER NÅGOT SÅDANT SÅ KAN DU FAN INTE SKYLLA IFRÅN DEJ!

BANN THIS MEMBER HIS A F***ING NAZI

[Resurrection]

ÄR DU HELT JÄVLA STÖRD ELLER!!? FITT NAZIST OCH NÄR DU SÄGER NÅGOT SÅDANT SÅ KAN DU FAN INTE SKYLLA IFRÅN DEJ!

BANN THIS MEMBER HIS A F***ING NAZI

Now you're just making yourself look pathetic.

So if one doesn't see multiculturalism as the way forward, if one doesn't see mass immigration as something good, if one is sick of the political correctness in society, and if one wants to preserve the Swedish identity and what it means to be Swedish... then he or she is a Nazi?

Come on, explain yourself! http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/1549/yesyk3.gif

[Sniffit]

So what do they have to offer? Besides a kebab at the local pizzeria after a hard nights drinking?

I sure as hell didn't pick up any other influences after living a couple of years in one of the immigrant enclaves (Bergsjön, Gothenburg) while I was studying. And why would I?

Now, life there isn't exactly as bad as you would be led to believed from some of the articles posted here on MP.net regarding Sweden and its immigration. I've seen no rock pelting of ambulances, threating and beating of firemen and the similar.

Most people there kept to their own and never bothered anyone, it was a very quiet neighborhood and it did certainly not live up to to its reputation.

That's not to say there isn't problems there. The majority of grown ups aren't working. Of the Somalis who lived there, the men seemed to hang out in the cafées, talking, while the women cared for the children (well, in many cases the children did the majority of the contacts with the outside world since many of the somali women doesn't seem to speak swedish. Their kids handle everything from picking up medicine at the farmacy and paying for their groceries at the supermarket.).

But! I personally never felt at home living there. As an ethnic Swede, I felt like an outsider. I would never even think of raising a family there. Even the ethnic swedish kids from those schools are worse off compared to the rest of Sweden, in basic stuff like reading comprehension etc.

For a long time, accepting a lot of immigrants has seem to be something of a source of pride for the Swedish government. Politicians thump their chests and say:"Look at how many refugees we are sheltering each year, we are taking more than our responsibilty for helping the unfortunate", often while giving a snide remark to countries like Finland who only takes in a token of immigrants/refugees every year.

When our forefathers left for America, no handouts were given to them, they had to build their own future, and I'm pretty sure many of them fell by the wayside, trying to escape poverty in Sweden but ending up worse off.

Sheltering people from war and the similar is noble but if we are to maintain a welfare society we need to take a hard look at where we are and how we are going to pay for it in the future, and that means taking a long, hard look at the current immigrant situation, which IMO, isn't working as intended right now...

What you experienced living there was the LACK of a valid integration policy.
Just the fact that you said that most were unemplyed and that there were mostly immigrants living there and that you felt like an outsider is a clear example of what segregation mean. I am not going to sit here and say that sweden and the swedes failed, we failed together, immigrants and swedes.

To say "So what do they have to offer? Besides a kebab at the local pizzeria after a hard nights drinking?" is a very ignorant comment.
Just look at history, other cultures have given us science, art, democracy and a tone of other things. Alot of bad/useless things have also come with immigration, how ever these things will die of themselfs.

Alot of you make thing simpler then they are. Just the fact that SD won't have any place in swedish politics within a far future since the immigration has already been slowed and is slowing down even more. What we need to focus on is integration, not making the ones that are here feel even more alienated.

[Swedish_Marine]

Just for the record: The Moderate party is not conservative. They are conservative liberals, and if you read more into their ideological statements, you will see that they are not just conservative. Liberal conservatives do not really emphasize individualism as pure liberals do, but stress for a more liberal economy. I voted for them because they want more police officers, and since I´ve applied for police academy selection, the choice was simple.

And as far as SD goes: It doesn´t matter how nice you wrap up a pice of crap. It´s still crap. They are nazis in an innocent looking package. Im sad to see that you don´t understand that Resurrection.

[Gluten]

Now you're just making yourself look pathetic.

So if one doesn't see multiculturalism as the way forward, if one doesn't see mass immigration as something good, if one is sick of the political correctness in society, and if one wants to preserve the Swedish identity and what it means to be Swedish... then he or she is a Nazi?

Come on, explain yourself! http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/1549/yesyk3.gif

I didnt say that mass imigration is something good and i dont think that either, BUT even to say something slightly gooda about the freakin swedish democrats is to support them AND U SHOULDN'T DO THAT!. The way to go is to restrrain the immigration amd integrate the immigraters more in the swedish society, because when u say something like that u just make the immigrants more upset. Thats my opinion now u go again

[Gluten]

Just for the record: The Moderate party is not conservative. They are conservative liberals, and if you read more into their ideological statements, you will see that they are not just conservative. Liberal conservatives do not really emphasize individualism as pure liberals do, but stress for a more liberal economy. I voted for them because they want more police officers, and since I´ve applied for police academy selection, the choice was simple.

And as far as SD goes: It doesn´t matter how nice you wrap up a pice of crap. It´s still crap. They are nazis in an innocent looking package. Im sad to see that you don´t understand that Resurrection.

absolutly correct

[M_S]

Now you're just making yourself look pathetic.

So if one doesn't see multiculturalism as the way forward, if one doesn't see mass immigration as something good, if one is sick of the political correctness in society, and if one wants to preserve the Swedish identity and what it means to be Swedish... then he or she is a Nazi?

Come on, explain yourself! http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/1549/yesyk3.gif

LOL, gotta love how you put yourself as a victim who defend his/her right to vote on who ever he/she want. As I told you before if you want to vote on SD (did you?) then fine, but you will still be considered an ass by the majority of the swedish population. SD is nothing but a rasist party with a facelift, and even though the party leadership are cleaning away certain members to make the party more acceptable, they are still a immigrant HOSTILE party, hostile being a key word. That is hostile to about 11% of the population.

PS: What the hell is going on in southern Sweden, 25% Sd in Landskrona? wtf?
Any ideas why they have more support in the south? DS.

[Storstark]

Gluten: how old are you? 14?

[Gluten]

[quote=Storstark;1933109]Gluten: how old are you? 14?[/quote

No i am 17, why do u want to know?

[signatory]

I happen to think that the Left-party and its roots are hostile to Sweden and there was a reason they were banned from the defence ministry for the most part of their existance. Well, I don't like SD because imo they have dumbarsed politics but their opinions is in no way more upsetting than those of the so called former communists.

http://gfx.tv4.se/imagesdb/editor/Nyheterna/BE1A2472-53C2-4FC8-8FA3-357E50315535.jpg
Lars Ohly's finger.

[Storstark]

Because your comment on Resurrection's pro-SD views was about the most infantile i've ever seen. Comments like that wont take you anywhere, and should prior to opinions like Res's result in a bann.

Gör om. Gör rätt!

[Gluten]

Because your comment on Resurrection's pro-SD views was about the most infantile i've ever seen. Comments like that wont take you anywhere, and should prior to opinions like Res's result in a bann.

Gör om. Gör rätt!

i can see that what i wrote wa wrong but i feel strong hate against nazies, racists and others like that an i have reasons for that. Kurt Linusson fx. he lives in my town and i dont like him at all

=Curt Linusson, 58, Lidköping.
Tidigare befäl inom hemvärnet och FN-soldat i Bosnien. Linusson fick sparken ur hemvärnet när det blev känt att han lierat sig med nazister och arrangerat en vit makt-konsert i Vara. I februari medgav han officiellt att han är ”nationalsocialist”. Har startat ett nazistförband, Legion Wasa, och bjudit in nazister till militärövning. Linusson har vid flera tillfällen deltagit i nazistmöten och talat på NSF-möte.

other reasons are that a couple of times in my life iv've had to run /fight for my life because of the F***ing nazies and other racists(and those times i didnt eaven do anything to upset them in the first palce!). I had a friend that got a kick in the privtes by an immigrant for no reason, and he allmost got sterial for that. And all this is because our gouverments doesnt work hard enough with the questions about the racists and the immigrants!

this is my reasons/ nu kanske du förstår

[Storstark]

You may have your reasons, but comments like that will always make you look like a 14-year old fool, and they counteract your own agenda.

Don't take Res's opinions that serious, he is not even of age. :) So, no damage done.

[Gluten]

You may have your reasons, but comments like that will always make you look like a 14-year old fool, and they counteract your own agenda.

Don't take Res's opinions that serious, he is not even of age. :) So, no damage done.

True true, but one day he is of age... so im saying this to u ressurection: Det blir inte bättre av att du rästar på sverige demokraterna det kan jag med 100% säkerhet säga. Om du nu tycker att invandringen inte är bra och att sverige demokraterna ska styra sverige då kan du ju ta en titt på 30- talets tyskland och ett parti som hette NSDAP, för dom verkade ju bra eller? dom ville ju bara och få tyskland på fötter igen genom att "få bort lite onda pengagiriga judar" och stärka militären och + en del andra saker och det gjorde dom ju bra...... det tycker nog inte majoriteten av världens befolkning