The Cruelty of War. WARNING: GRAPHIC DESCRIPTIONS

[Skaman]

I have grown tired of the malicious and vengeance remarks in addressing the Iraqi people in response to the current conflict. Many of you are so quick to condemn these people as veracious, horrible and inhumane. One cannot seem to comprehend the fallacy of evangelism you think the Western soldier embodies. War does horrible things to people, Western and Eastern alike, from all corners of the globe. The chaos and mental anguish of war, the sight of suffering and death all drive people to the limits of their rational thought. These people commit crimes beyond civil imagination, yet I want you to take a step back and examine your own troops or ‘evangelists’.

Not all Chechens are ruthless Islamic extremists, The Iraqis of Fulluju are not terrorists, the Americans of the Vietnam War are not all ‘baby killers’. War draws the worst out in man, and often creates a horrible image for the rest of the collective. Enough of this retribution bull ****, and raw raw America payback crap. Take a look back at some of the actions your own countrymen subjected during these horrible days of war.





We were walking some grunts out on a beachhead. And there was some fisherman out on the ocean and a couple of our sergeants thought it would be good sport to use them as target practice. So they swung the 50 caliber around and they just shot the **** out of them for no reason, I guess.

SP/4 Gary Keyes, American Division (VVAW 1972)

Also, we threw full C-Ration cans at kids on the side of the road. Kids would be lined up on the side of the road. They’d be yelling out: “Chop, Chop, Chop”, and they wanted food. They knew we carried C-Rations. Well, just for a joke, these guys would take a full can and if they were riding shotgun and would throw it as hard as they could at the kids head. I saw several kids’ heads split wide open, knocked off the road, knocked into the tires of vehicles behind, and knocked under the tanks traps.

SP/4 Sam Schorr, Eighty Sixth Combat Engineers

I saw one case where a woman was shot by a sniper, one of our guys. When we got up to her she was asking for water. And the lieutenant said to kill her. So he ripped off her clothes, they stabbed her in both breasts, they ripped hear eagle and shoved an E-Tool up her ******, an entrenching tool, and she was still asking for water. And then they took that out and they used a tree limb and then she was shot.

Sgt. Scott Camil, First Marine Divison

I was a prisoner of war negotiator. I was in Vietnam from ’66 to ’67. Being an interrogator the way I was, you definitely don’t win hearts and minds. I’ve heard about these ‘Bell Telephone Hours’, where they would crank people up with field phones. I guess we did them one better because we used a 12-volt jeep battery and you step on the gas and you crank up a lot of voltage. It was one of the normal things…The basic place you put it was the genitals…The major that I worked for had a fantastic capability of staking prisoners, utilizing a knife that was extremely sharp, and sort of filleting them like a fish. You know, trying to check out how much bacon he could make of a Vietnamese body to get information.

Lt. Jon Drolshagan, Twenty-fifth Infantry


Testimonials from: The Spitting Image, Myth, memory and the Legacy of Vietnam by Jerry Lembcke

[xjym2002]

Shouldn't those crimes be condemned? Given a chance, wouldn't these criminals be jailed?

What's your point? These do NOT justify what those Iraqis, not all, were doing that day.

[Sir Zach of R.]

You're right, not all Chechens are extremeists. Again, not all Iraqis are savages. And you're sure as hell right about Nam vets not being baby killers. But what those people did to those Blackwater guys in Fallujah was horrible. No, it wasn't horrible, it was worse. It is beyond horrible. I do not consider Iraqis savages, but sometimes I wonder, what the hell are they thinking.

[SeanAshi]

I read a book about Lt. William Calley who was found guilty of murder in what is called the My Lai massacre in Vietnam, totally unacceptable what he did.
My Lai Massacre
On March 16, 1968 the angry and frustrated men of Charlie Company, 11th Brigade, Americal Division entered the village of My Lai. "This is what you've been waiting for -- search and destroy -- and you've got it," said their superior officers. A short time later the killing began. When news of the atrocities surfaced, it sent shockwaves through the US political establishment, the military's chain of command, and an already divided American public.

My Lai lay in the South Vietnamese district of Son My, a heavily mined area of Vietcong entrenchment. Numerous members of Charlie Company had been maimed or killed in the area during the preceding weeks. The agitated troops, under the command of Lt. William Calley, entered the village poised for engagement with the elusive Vietcong.

As the "search and destroy" mission unfolded it soon degenerated into the massacre of over 300 apparently unarmed civilians including women, children, and the elderly. Calley ordered his men to enter the village firing, though there had been no report of opposing fire. According to eyewitness reports offered after the event, several old men were bayoneted, praying women and children were shot in the back of the head, and at least one girl was raped, and then killed. For his part, Calley was said to have rounded up a group of the villagers, ordered them into a ditch, and mowed them down in a fury of machine gun fire.

Word of the massacre did not reach the American public until November of 1969, when journalist Seymour Hersh published a story detailing his conversations with ex-GI and Vietnam veteran, Ron Ridenhour. Ridenhour learned of the events at My Lai from members of Charlie Company who had been there. Before speaking with Hersh, he had appealed to Congress, the White House, and the Pentagon to investigate the matter. The military investigation resulted in Calley's being charged with murder in September 1969 -- a full two months before the Hersh story hit the streets.

As the gruesome details of the massacre reached the American public serious questions arose concerning the conduct of American soldiers in Vietnam. A military commission investigating the My Lai massacre found widespread failures of leadership, discipline, and morale among the Army's fighting units. As the war progressed, many "career" soldiers had either been rotated out or retired. Many more had died. In their place were scores of draftees whose fitness for leadership in the field of battle was questionable at best. Military officials blamed inequities in the draft policy for the often slim talent pool from which they were forced to choose leaders. Many maintained that if the educated middle class ("the Harvards," as they were called) had joined in the fight, a man of Lt. William Calley's emotional and intellectual stature would never have been issuing orders.

Calley, an unemployed college dropout, had managed to graduate from Officer's Candidate School at Fort Benning, Georgia, in 1967. At his trial, Calley testified that he was ordered by Captain Ernest Medina to kill everyone in the village of My Lai. Still, there was only enough photographic and recorded evidence to convict Calley, alone, of murder. He was sentenced to life in prison, but was released in 1974, following many appeals. After being issued a dishonorable discharge, Calley entered the insurance business.

He should have never been released.

[Merik]

I read a book about Lt. William Calley who was found guilty of murder in what is called the My Lai massacre in Vietnam, totally unacceptable what he did.
My Lai Massacre
On March 16, 1968 the angry and frustrated men of Charlie Company, 11th Brigade, Americal Division entered the village of My Lai. "This is what you've been waiting for -- search and destroy -- and you've got it," said their superior officers. A short time later the killing began. When news of the atrocities surfaced, it sent shockwaves through the US political establishment, the military's chain of command, and an already divided American public.

My Lai lay in the South Vietnamese district of Son My, a heavily mined area of Vietcong entrenchment. Numerous members of Charlie Company had been maimed or killed in the area during the preceding weeks. The agitated troops, under the command of Lt. William Calley, entered the village poised for engagement with the elusive Vietcong.

As the "search and destroy" mission unfolded it soon degenerated into the massacre of over 300 apparently unarmed civilians including women, children, and the elderly. Calley ordered his men to enter the village firing, though there had been no report of opposing fire. According to eyewitness reports offered after the event, several old men were bayoneted, praying women and children were shot in the back of the head, and at least one girl was raped, and then killed. For his part, Calley was said to have rounded up a group of the villagers, ordered them into a ditch, and mowed them down in a fury of machine gun fire.

Word of the massacre did not reach the American public until November of 1969, when journalist Seymour Hersh published a story detailing his conversations with ex-GI and Vietnam veteran, Ron Ridenhour. Ridenhour learned of the events at My Lai from members of Charlie Company who had been there. Before speaking with Hersh, he had appealed to Congress, the White House, and the Pentagon to investigate the matter. The military investigation resulted in Calley's being charged with murder in September 1969 -- a full two months before the Hersh story hit the streets.

As the gruesome details of the massacre reached the American public serious questions arose concerning the conduct of American soldiers in Vietnam. A military commission investigating the My Lai massacre found widespread failures of leadership, discipline, and morale among the Army's fighting units. As the war progressed, many "career" soldiers had either been rotated out or retired. Many more had died. In their place were scores of draftees whose fitness for leadership in the field of battle was questionable at best. Military officials blamed inequities in the draft policy for the often slim talent pool from which they were forced to choose leaders. Many maintained that if the educated middle class ("the Harvards," as they were called) had joined in the fight, a man of Lt. William Calley's emotional and intellectual stature would never have been issuing orders.

Calley, an unemployed college dropout, had managed to graduate from Officer's Candidate School at Fort Benning, Georgia, in 1967. At his trial, Calley testified that he was ordered by Captain Ernest Medina to kill everyone in the village of My Lai. Still, there was only enough photographic and recorded evidence to convict Calley, alone, of murder. He was sentenced to life in prison, but was released in 1974, following many appeals. After being issued a dishonorable discharge, Calley entered the insurance business.

He should have never been released.

Every officer in the military should know about the My Lai incident, that way they know of what not to do in such a situation. Comabt fatigue and stress can make a man do awful things, especially when he sees his buddies get killed.

[Skaman]

Every officer in the military should know about the My Lai incident, that way they know of what not to do in such a situation. Comabt fatigue and stress can make a man do awful things, especially when he sees his buddies get killed.


Therefore, we need to be extra cautious in Iraq and prevent such occurrences from happening again. The Iraq war is fairly young, and over time, the mental landscape of a GI can only remain 'civil' for so long. It happened in Vietnam, and Iraq may be no different. It happens in Chechnya, and it has been happening in Iraq for decades. All these people have ever known is death, what else can we expect in return?

[Skaman]

Shouldn't those crimes be condemned? Given a chance, wouldn't these criminals be jailed?

What's your point? These do NOT justify what those Iraqis, not all, were doing that day.


They do not justify, but help us understand.

[Merik]

Every officer in the military should know about the My Lai incident, that way they know of what not to do in such a situation. Comabt fatigue and stress can make a man do awful things, especially when he sees his buddies get killed.


Therefore, we need to be extra cautious in Iraq and prevent such occurrences from happening again. The Iraq war is fairly young, and over time, the mental landscape of a GI can only remain 'civil' for so long. It happened in Vietnam, and Iraq may be no different. It happens in Chechnya, and it has been happening in Iraq for decades. All these people have ever known is death, what else can we expect in return?

Yes, well I think that you really cant compare Vietnam to Iraq because the way things are happening. Its not two countrys against each other as it was in Nam, but its mainly one country against a bunch of ethinic groups and terrorists. If we cant win thier "hearts and minds" so to speak, then my question to you Ducimus, is who can? The UN cant because they are to blinded by power and money, hence why it took 10 years for the US and a few other countries to do the UN's dirty work since they wouldnt do it themselves. Just a thought.

But I said that about My Lai for future reference in any country and combat situation, not just Iraq. p-)

[obd]

Im not denying these things at all but its important to make sure that there is corroberting evidence. War does terrible things to people physically but also mentally and I would want to check the varacity of anyone's claims over something like that..............

Again, not denying, just saying its important to be skeptical and not just believe any and all testimonials given out by troops who may be mentally scarred and thus incapable of providing trustworthy testimony to be used against others............

But yes, many terrible things happen in war and no nation or people in the history of man can claim they havnt done barbaric acts. Its is something not for states, races, religions, ethnic groups, sexes, etc to deal with: Cruelty is something all mankind must confront as all men are capable of being pushed to the limit under the most dire circumstances.......Even the best men, the men with families, educations, and strong moral values, can turn to evil deeds under the right circumstances......

[Fioraon]

Every officer in the military should know about the My Lai incident, that way they know of what not to do in such a situation. Comabt fatigue and stress can make a man do awful things, especially when he sees his buddies get killed.


Therefore, we need to be extra cautious in Iraq and prevent such occurrences from happening again. The Iraq war is fairly young, and over time, the mental landscape of a GI can only remain 'civil' for so long. It happened in Vietnam, and Iraq may be no different. It happens in Chechnya, and it has been happening in Iraq for decades. All these people have ever known is death, what else can we expect in return?

Wow, you should open up a seminar at West Point becasue clearly they have no idea about this...

[SFontaine]

Every officer in the military should know about the My Lai incident, that way they know of what not to do in such a situation. Comabt fatigue and stress can make a man do awful things, especially when he sees his buddies get killed.


Therefore, we need to be extra cautious in Iraq and prevent such occurrences from happening again. The Iraq war is fairly young, and over time, the mental landscape of a GI can only remain 'civil' for so long. It happened in Vietnam, and Iraq may be no different. It happens in Chechnya, and it has been happening in Iraq for decades. All these people have ever known is death, what else can we expect in return?

And why didn't they happen during WW2? When some soldiers were deployed much longer than the ones int he Vietnam War?

Stressful conditions and a completely barbarous and ruthless enemy brings out the worst in man. The difference between American soldiers and their average enemies is that American soldiers are taught to respect life, taught to avoid civilian casualties and taught to follow a strict code of conduct. In Vietnam the NVA were trained to be ruthless, they were trained in torture and were trained to be as displicable as possible to win. They were givin citations for their crimes.

Trying to draw a parallel between the NVA and American soldiers is impossible. One Military went in with the clearly defined Rules of Engagement, another went in with the mindset of do whatever it takes to win.

See what I'm saying? Ducimus you're what? 16? 17? You don't know everything. I don't know everything. There are people who have been working for their entire lives on this very subject. PTSD, combat fatigue etc. People who are much more learned than you. This is why the Army rotates units out after a period of time, so they don't get combat fatigue.. They already know all this stuff, bud! Don't try and teach ANYONE here a lesson, considering so many people here have actually seen combat.

The Iraqis who perpetrated the acts in Fallujah deserve death. They are some of the worst scum alive right now. Don't try to defend them.

[Skaman]

Every officer in the military should know about the My Lai incident, that way they know of what not to do in such a situation. Comabt fatigue and stress can make a man do awful things, especially when he sees his buddies get killed.


Therefore, we need to be extra cautious in Iraq and prevent such occurrences from happening again. The Iraq war is fairly young, and over time, the mental landscape of a GI can only remain 'civil' for so long. It happened in Vietnam, and Iraq may be no different. It happens in Chechnya, and it has been happening in Iraq for decades. All these people have ever known is death, what else can we expect in return?

Wow, you should open up a seminar at West Point becasue clearly they have no idea about this...


Would you care to extrapolate?

[Skaman]

And why didn't they happen during WW2? When some soldiers were deployed much longer than the ones int he Vietnam War?

Well, Allied Soldiers did in Fact commit crimes against their enemies, inflicting casualties on the civilian populous in immense numbers, and directly breaching war time codes of conduct. Allied soldiers shot unarmed prisoners, raped locals, robbed the dead, and desecrated their enemy’s corpses in many cases. Civilian casualties were not taken into consideration with the mass murder of thousands in Dresden and Hiroshima or Nagasaki. I am not supporting any side of the conflict, as the Axis contingent committed brutal crimes as well, and to a much larger extent. Nonetheless, no one side of the war is immune to these brutal behavioral displays.


Trying to draw a parallel between the NVA and American soldiers is impossible. One Military went in with the clearly defined Rules of Engagement, another went in with the mindset of do whatever it takes to win.

Tell that to the Peasants in N. Vietnam, or the children carpet bombed back to the Stone Age


See what I'm saying? Ducimus you're what? 16? 17

I am 19, going on 20.


You don't know everything.

Of course not



. There are people who have been working for their entire lives on this very subject. PTSD, combat fatigue etc. People who are much more learned than you. This is why the Army rotates units out after a period of time, so they don't get combat fatigue.. They already know all this stuff, bud! Don't try and teach ANYONE here a lesson, considering so many people here have actually seen combat


I think you fail to miss the idea of this post.


The Iraqis who perpetrated the acts in Fallujah deserve death. They are some of the worst scum alive right now. Don't try to defend them



Scum? You fail to understand the many variables presented in this conflict, and the complex and evidently different set of social norms. These people have been subjugated to death and misery for years. We have no right to exert all our frustrated efforts on a group of civilians. Perhaps it was best the US was not here in the first place, and then we could avoid this whole scenario. The again, that theme has been beat into the ground. Just something to think about, and thanks for your response.

[SFontaine]

Well, Allied Soldiers did in Fact commit crimes against their enemies, inflicting casualties on the civilian populous in immense numbers, and directly breaching war time codes of conduct. Allied soldiers shot unarmed prisoners, raped locals, robbed the dead, and desecrated their enemy’s corpses in many cases

Can you show me some sources of this? I don't doubt they've happened but I'd like to read up on some of this.


Tell that to the Peasants in N. Vietnam, or the children carpet bombed back to the Stone Age

I'm not saying what they did was right. It wasn't. The point I'm trying to make is the US goes to great pains to avoid that kind of crap whereas generally the US's enemies aim for that sort of stuff.


I am 19, going on 20

With respect, you look much younger in your pictures.



I think you fail to miss the idea of this post

Perhaps. But the point I'm trying to make is that the US knows everything you're saying.


Scum? You fail to understand the many variables presented in this conflict, and the complex and evidently different set of social norms. These people have been subjugated to death and misery for years

So it's okay then? They're allowed to set people on fire, drag their bodies through the streets, mutilate them then hang them from a bridge? The people who are trying to rebuild their country and ensure they have a future? If a US soldier takes ANYTHING off a dead Iraqi (Watch, sidearm etc) they get in a lot of trouble and sent home. But Iraqis mutilate 4 Americans and it's defendable?


thanks for your response.
You're welcome

[Beowulf]

veracious means truthful or honest.

You probably meant voracious, which would be a common mis-usage of the word as it usually refers to excessive hunger or appetite.

[Beowulf]

what happened to the poo? that was funny.... poo is funny....

[Skaman]

veracious means truthful or honest.

You probably meant voracious, which would be a common mis-usage of the word as it usually refers to excessive hunger or appetite.


supposed to be viscious. Poo?

[Skaman]

edit. tripple posts

[Skaman]

edit

[Flagg]

Civilian casualties were not taken into consideration with the mass murder of thousands in Dresden and Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Of course civilian casualties were taken into consideration.....the deaths of approximately 150,000 Japanese at Hiroshima and Nagasaki resulted in the saving of millions of Japanese and American lives.

Japan had a history(Iwo Jima and Okinawa) of fighting to the death....of not surrendering, and encouraging ethnic Japanese civilians to fight or commit suicide. Japan had prepared to defend Japan to the end.

An invasion of Japan(the planned Operation Olympic and Coronet) would have been a massive bloodbath.......estimated casualties in the millions.

the dropping of atomic weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was unfortunately necessary....

ANY alternative short of using nuclear weapons(blockade, invasion, conventional bombardment, etc.) would have resulted in much greater horror.

[Jack Mehoff]

Is it just me or this is the same **** face who condemned US's apache shooting "innocent" Iraqis :roll:

[Skaman]

Civilian casualties were not taken into consideration with the mass murder of thousands in Dresden and Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Of course civilian casualties were taken into consideration.....the deaths of approximately 150,000 Japanese at Hiroshima and Nagasaki resulted in the saving of millions of Japanese and American lives.

Japan had a history(Iwo Jima and Okinawa) of fighting to the death....of not surrendering, and encouraging ethnic Japanese civilians to fight or commit suicide. Japan had prepared to defend Japan to the end.

An invasion of Japan(the planned Operation Olympic and Coronet) would have been a massive bloodbath.......estimated casualties in the millions.

the dropping of atomic weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was unfortunately necessary....

ANY alternative short of using nuclear weapons(blockade, invasion, conventional bombardment, etc.) would have resulted in much greater horror.

I recall a thread about this before. Just for clarity, I used the same points you mention, and am in agreeance. Lets keep this on topic though.

[Skaman]

Is it just me or this is the same f*** face who condemned US's apache shooting "innocent" Iraqis :roll:

?

[Jack Mehoff]

I'm sure you remember that short cut&paste video clip where an American Apache gunship blew up insurgents with their huge cannon.

[SFontaine]

Before this thread goes on..
I want to send a little message to all of you. Right, Left, Center, Canadian, American whatever.. Keep the thread on topic, no insults nothing. Let's have this be an actual debate instead of the bull**** we're used to.

[Trigger]

I have grown tired of the malicious and vengeance remarks in addressing the Iraqi people in response to the current conflict. Well then stop reading them. Many of you are so quick to condemn these people as veracious, horrible and inhumane. ...because they are all of the above. One cannot seem to comprehend the fallacy of evangelism you think the Western soldier embodies. Yeah, opening schools and hospitals, and turning on the water does tend to throw people's view of things out of whack I guess. War does horrible things to people, Western and Eastern alike, from all corners of the globe. Please, tell us more Sigmund Fraud. The chaos and mental anguish of war, the sight of suffering and death all drive people to the limits of their rational thought. These people commit crimes beyond civil imagination, yet I want you to take a step back and examine your own troops or ‘evangelists’. Hmmm. Upon stepping back and examining the actions of 'my' troops, I'd have to say I still admire the living sh*t out of them.

Not all Chechens are ruthless Islamic extremists, ...not the dead ones anyway. The Iraqis of Fulluju are not terrorists, Right. Butchers is a more descriptive term. the Americans of the Vietnam War are not all ‘baby killers’. 'not all'? That's mighty generous of you. War draws the worst out in man, and often creates a horrible image for the rest of the collective. 'collective'? You mean like the 'Borg'? I think they are indifferent. Enough of this retribution bull ****, and raw raw America payback crap. At last! the REAL reason for your post. You can't stand the 'rah-rah America' stuff, can you? Take a look back at some of the actions your own countrymen subjected during these horrible days of war. Oh, boo hoo!

[Skaman]

I'm sure you remember that short cut&paste video clip where an American Apache gunship blew up insurgents with their huge cannon.

I was not there, and do not have any training in Apache combat doctrine to appropriately justify or condemn the event. Additionally, the image is somewhat blurred, and understanding the full context of the engagement is difficult. Therefore, I am unable to answer your question.

[Trigger]

Before this thread goes on..
I want to send a little message to all of you. Right, Left, Center, Canadian, American whatever.. Keep the thread on topic, no insults nothing. Let's have this be an actual debate instead of the bull**** we're used to.
Sorry SFontaine, but an actual debate is not possible with ducimus. He's in 'condemn America mode' as usual.

[SFontaine]

Let's try.
The thing I notice is you guys normally jump on him first. Let's see what he has to say and we can then counter what he says with what we know.
That's how debate works. It's Freedom of Speech, man.

[Skaman]

I have grown tired of the malicious and vengeance remarks in addressing the Iraqi people in response to the current conflict. Well then stop reading them. Many of you are so quick to condemn these people as veracious, horrible and inhumane. ...because they are all of the above. One cannot seem to comprehend the fallacy of evangelism you think the Western soldier embodies. Yeah, opening schools and hospitals, and turning on the water does tend to throw people's view of things out of whack I guess. War does horrible things to people, Western and Eastern alike, from all corners of the globe. Please, tell us more Sigmund Fraud. The chaos and mental anguish of war, the sight of suffering and death all drive people to the limits of their rational thought. These people commit crimes beyond civil imagination, yet I want you to take a step back and examine your own troops or ‘evangelists’. Hmmm. Upon stepping back and examining the actions of 'my' troops, I'd have to say I still admire the living sh*t out of them.

The Iraqis of Fulluju are not terrorists, Right. Butchers is a more descriptive term. the Americans of the Vietnam War are not all ‘baby killers’. 'not all'? That's mighty generous of you. War draws the worst out in man, and often creates a horrible image for the rest of the collective. 'collective'? You mean like the 'Borg'? I think they are indifferent. Enough of this retribution bull ****, and raw raw America payback crap. At last! the REAL reason for your post. You can't stand the 'rah-rah America' stuff, can you? Take a look back at some of the actions your own countrymen subjected during these horrible days of war. Oh, boo hoo!



Seriously man, can you create a single post with out the same repetitive satirical drivel?


Not all Chechens are ruthless Islamic extremists, ...not the dead ones anyway.

Its comments like these that made my argument all the more poignant.

[Skaman]

Before this thread goes on..
I want to send a little message to all of you. Right, Left, Center, Canadian, American whatever.. Keep the thread on topic, no insults nothing. Let's have this be an actual debate instead of the bull**** we're used to.
Sorry SFontaine, but an actual debate is not possible with ducimus. He's in 'condemn America mode' as usual.


If you had actually read the post and applied some cogitative ability into really interpreting it, you may realize this is not a CONDEMN American thread. Sorry SFontaine, leave it to Trigger.....


waiting for the next comedic rhetoric response..... :roll:

[Trigger]

Let's try.
The thing I notice is you guys normally jump on him first. Let's see what he has to say and we can then counter what he says with what we know.
That's how debate works. It's Freedom of Speech, man.
Uh, no. He 'jumped' first with his initial post of alleged American brutality (again).


Seriously man, can you create a single post with out the same repetitive satirical drivel?
Repetetive, satirical drivel is all you deserve.


Its comments like these that made my argument all the more poignant.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[mocking_loudly_died]

Fight, fight, fight.

We paid for blood!

[Jack Mehoff]

Fight, fight, fight.

We paid for blood!

I'll wrestle with the girl in your avatar for FREE.

[Trigger]

If you had actually read the post and applied some cogitative ability into really interpreting it, you may realize this is not a CONDEMN American thread. Sorry SFontaine, leave it to Trigger.....


waiting for the next comedic rhetoric response..... :roll:
Do you mean 'cognitive' ability?
Why don't you quit trying to use $5 words. You can't afford them.

If it wasn't a condemn America thread, then why did it contain all those examples of alleged American barbarism?

If you can legitimately explain that, I'll leave you alone in this thread.

[Skaman]

If you had actually read the post and applied some cogitative ability into really interpreting it, you may realize this is not a CONDEMN American thread. Sorry SFontaine, leave it to Trigger.....


waiting for the next comedic rhetoric response..... :roll:
Do you mean 'cognitive' ability?
Why don't you quit trying to use $5 words. You can't afford them.

If it wasn't a condemn America thread, then why did it contain all those examples of alleged American barbarism?

If you can legitimately explain that, I'll leave you alone in this thread.


One needs to think twice before jumping on an alleged act of barbarism, and examine occurrences within their own military body and ultimately understand this happens everywhere. It is a flaw of the human character. No nation is impervious too occurrences like these. Iraq is a complicated matter; one cannot act on their inhibition of revenge which in-turn will only create more death and a cyclical and ultimately unstoppable clog of death. Nations needs to be prepared to harvest the seed they sough. Its ironic one so passionately condemns such events, while these very actions are ingrained in our own military past.

[Skaman]

Do you mean 'cognitive' ability


I blame spell check.

[Royal]

I deliberately avoided all news over the past few days - I'd seen what had happened in Faluja, and feared that the US would over react.

My initial reaction was "bastards!". I didn't know any of them, and I'm from another country, so I can look at it with more dispassion - I've certainly felt the same way as you guys about events in NI.

What was done to the PMC's from Blackwater was in no way justifiable - but it was done for a reason. It was done to polarise opinion - the insurgents want to reinforce the concept of 'infidel invaders' amongst their own people, and they want to 'do a Mogadishu/Vietnam' and cause the US to withdraw because the casualties - and the sight of the casualties - is to much for the public to stomach.

The point I'm trying to make is that massive reprisals - whatever they're called - will only act as a recruiting tool for the insurgents. The response has to be surgical. And quiet - word will get round soon enough.


In Vietnam the NVA were trained to be ruthless, they were trained in torture and were trained to be as displicable as possible to win. They were givin citations for their crimes.

So were the CIA and other elements of the USSF community. The French did the same in Vietnam and Algeria, The Israelis do the same now, the British did it in Northern Ireland, Cyprus, Kenya and Malaya (to my knowledge). The west is not as white and clean as you believe. In the dark shadows of the CI war some very nasty things happen that we may remain free to criticise.


There are people who have been working for their entire lives on this very subject. PTSD, combat fatigue etc. People who are much more learned than you. This is why the Army rotates units out after a period of time, so they don't get combat fatigue

If you seriously beleive that, I suggest you read Shrek's thread about Combat Stress/PTSD - It may give you a tiny insight into what you're gibbering about.

[Trigger]

Thanks Captain obvious. :roll:

So basically you started this thread because you can't see the difference between unwarranted brutality and the need for people to see justice carried out, right?

EDIT:
this is directed at ducimus19's last post, not you Royal.

[Skaman]

Can you show me some sources of this? I don't doubt they've happened but I'd like to read up on some of this.




http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/us_war_crimes/us_war_crimes_in_world_war_II_1.htm

Needless to say, I was not able to find that many sources. My argument comes from a documentary I witnessed which covered allied war crimes during ww2. Unfortunately I cannot replicate this. Sorry I cannot be of further assistance, I will do some further searching’s, as for now I hope this will hold you over.

[Skaman]

Good Post Royal.

[mocking_loudly_died]

All my research into war has led me to the obvious conclusion that it is fun activity for all the family.
The following is my intense and well establish study material:

1.Commando – proved that mercs are no match for Austrian / Americans with unlimited capacity mags.
2.Counter-Strike – proved that you actually respawn in battle and land in a mystical place where upgradable weapons are purchased.
3. Navy SEALS - proved sexy Americans always beat the **** out of ugly Arabs.

Now all you whingy fairies need to go out and become a hardcore war analysis VET like me.

[Skaman]

Thanks Captain obvious. :roll:

So basically you started this thread because you can't see the difference between unwarranted brutality and the need for people to see justice carried out, right?

EDIT:
this is directed at ducimus19's last post, not you Royal.


IS that what we call it "Justice"?

[Trigger]

Hey, I heard that about the SEALs too Mocking!

[Trigger]

IS that what we call it "Justice"?

Is that what we call what?

Going after the people who committed the crimes of a few days ago?
Yeah, that's what I'd call it.

[mocking_loudly_died]

Hey, I heard that about the SEALs too Mocking!

< well informed by the voices "whats that mother.....kill all the children?!!!"

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

IS that what we call it "Justice"?

Is that what we call what?

Going after the people who committed the crimes of a few days ago?
Yeah, that's what I'd call it.

And how would you go about dishing out this "justice" ?

You touch these guys leader, your going to have a ****-tornado all over Iraq. Whats important right now is whats going on behind the scenes, the US/coalition needs to get the other cleric's on there side and calm down the majority of them Shi'ites. Not a crazy show of force...


Not all Chechens are ruthless Islamic extremists, ...not the dead ones anyway.

Comments like these only go to show how far this forum is sliding down hill, if you cant keep your racism from boiling over into the forum then dont post. Wait...I got a better idea, we'll just have you banned. Because quite frankly, I'm sick of all the racism thats been floating around on the board lately. *sorry bout that but it had to come out...back to the discussion*

[gilgoul]

[quote

Scum? You fail to understand the many variables presented in this conflict, and the complex and evidently different set of social norms. These people have been subjugated to death and misery for years. We have no right to exert all our frustrated efforts on a group of civilians. Perhaps it was best the US was not here in the first place, and then we could avoid this whole scenario. The again, that theme has been beat into the ground. Just something to think about, and thanks for your response.[/quote]


It is no excuse, desecration of bodies is a well known tactic used in a apparently hot blooded cisrcumstance, while it`s a cold blooded tactic designated to enrage the ennemy, make him consider the same action.
Why i`m worried though,it is in your presentation of "white" american "crimes" while the arab, hte local, the vietcong, the other should be pardonned for his deeds, basically, you are presenting a racist point of view behind good intentions, that other rules should be applied to the other, that an Iraki who kills and mutilates his "ennemy`s" body his a victim of years of oppression is scandalous, the scumbag should be put on trial and spend the necessary time to think over his crime.
Atrocities in war are comon, interrogation methods often brutal, butwhen certified they are tried and punished in our armies, while they are considered act of heroism or martyrdom in the arab/muslim world.

So it is their shot, they want to be considered human and treated as well, they should start reconsidering thir methods, and the "liberals" who are so good at denunciating our breaches of human rights should consider how to aprehend the massacres comitted by their "excusable occupied victims" friends.
:slap:

[OldRecon]

Allready posted this under another topic:



Many americans here seem to forget they are there to help the Iraqis...

They are talking about retaliation on unrelated children and Women. :cantbeli:

Well, if it had been that simple.
Things in a conflict as in Iraq can in fact be rather more blurred.

Not that my experience in Lebanon some while back can be all that much compared with the experiences of today in Iraq, but during my time "down there" an American missionary, named Robinson, running an orphanage in a village called Rachaya le Foukar was assasinated (shot with a silenced pistol) by fighters from LCP (Lebanese comminst party). The events leading up to this murder is a quite long story (maybe get Citizen-K or someone else with local connections to tell that one), but one interesting element of the assasination itself, was the fact that the telephone line, running directly from the Orphanage to a local Norbatt platoon HQ, had been cut by someone among the local population shortly before the LCP people arrived to carry out the killing.
Now were those that cut that telephone line to be regarded as civilians, as they perhaps were unarmed at the time they did their part of the job?
Certainly you can't view them as entirely free of guilt (or???)???
Guess the soldiers of the coalition have to deal with a lot of similar scenarios (though in other forms) at present in Iraq :|.
A predominant scenario of that sort perhpas being young unarmed kids working as scouts/lookouts for the big guys with the hardware.
Though those kids perhaps are only 7 or 12, if the information they provide lead to an ambush where someone get hurt or killed, are they still to be regarded as free of guilt because of their age?
Yet for being involved in one incident, are they to be considered overall bad?
Now put yourself on an Iraqi street with that sort of moral question rumaging around between your ears, and try to discern how you would handle it.
It's quite easy to resort to the Calley option isn't it??
So it's simply not that simple.
Not being involved in one incident doesn't mean someone can not be involved in another. It all depends.
There's a lot of grey overlaps in a war like at present in Iraq.

The really hard part is that the distinction between civilian and combatant often isn't as distinct as is common in "conventional war".
Though, as Royal, don't believe massive retribution is the way to go, however awfull the opposition. Though some harsh measures like the traditional methods of sectioning occupied territory with fencing and blockhouses/OP's (or more modern adaptatoions of the team), strict food control and curfews will have to be implemented. And you'll need enough men on the ground to to be able to make shure those measures are reasonably effective.
On the other hand you'll also need some positive incentive, some kind of positive alternative to rebellion that also promote dignity, self-respect, and prospect of prosperity.
Lifting any restrictions can however only partly constitute such positive incentives.
Conditions that have to be met before pulling out, must also be crystal clear and understood by all, and besides one must also be prepared to stay for an indefinite period of time to achieve those conditions, and should not shie from using that as a bargain tool against rebels and supporters to cause resignation among their ranks ("look, you attack us, and protest violently against us, but do we budge?").

Though still do think that not invading Iraq would have led to far less trouble in the long run, than what's actually unfolding now (and was equaly convinced about that before the invasion of Iraq).

[Beowulf]

good points OR

[Trigger]

IS that what we call it "Justice"?

Is that what we call what?

Going after the people who committed the crimes of a few days ago?
Yeah, that's what I'd call it.

And how would you go about dishing out this "justice" ? Make a concerted, forceful effort to capture or kill those responsible for the atrocities. What did you think I meant?

You touch these guys leader, your going to have a ****-tornado all over Iraq. Really? Do you have a crystal ball or something? or are you just parroting what you hear on the news? Whats important right now is whats going on behind the scenes, the US/coalition needs to get the other cleric's on there side and calm down the majority of them Shi'ites. Not a crazy show of force... Because we all know how much better things were when we didn't respond to vicious attacks in the past (USS Cole, Khobar Towers, African Embassies)


Not all Chechens are ruthless Islamic extremists, ...not the dead ones anyway.

Comments like these only go to show how far this forum is sliding down hill, if you cant keep your racism from boiling over into the forum then dont post. No, you limp wristed whiners who like to use PC 'catch phrases' whenever you don't like to hear the hard truth are the reason the forum has gone downhill. You define the racism in the quote you used. I used no derogatory terminology. I did however, use sarcasm. If you can't tell the difference, then STFU.Wait...I got a better idea, we'll just have you banned. Hahahahaha! Bring It On. Because quite frankly, I'm sick of all the racism thats been floating around on the board lately. What a coincidence: I'm sick of all the Political Correctness coming from a certain region North of the U.S. border.*sorry bout that but it had to come out...back to the discussion*

[TALOS]

But Eisenhower's hatred of the Germans, which was openly shown many times during those terrible days of the war, demanded that as many Germans as possible be made to suffer for their part in the war. It might be well to state here, that as early as 1902, International Jewry had a plan for the destruction of Christianity in Europe.
this is from the article you posted ducimus... looks like a lot of "hate jews" stuff in that whole article, you may want to read it before posting the link next time, unless of course it has your sentiments. :roll:

[TALOS]

(bastardchild wrote) Because quite frankly, I'm sick of all the racism thats been floating around on the board lately. What a coincidence: I'm sick of all the Political Correctness coming from a certain region North of the U.S. border.*sorry bout that but it had to come out...back to the discussion*
Ummm trigger, not all us Canadians are PC, but we do have a predisposition of believing we are ALWAYS more righteous than americans ;) j/k
Some american members do have a habit of saying you should nuke all of Iraq and some canadians seem to forget that doesnt mean they really want it to happen, people just are sick of the violence and are venting.
I for one, and many other canadians support the US, but everyone just wants to see measured responses that wont backfire. I believe mucktard needs to be arrested also but the US really needs the other clerics on side to avoid the same stuff we are witnessing in the streets right now.
Trust me this isnt a flame post at all... just want everyone to know that there is support but we all wanna see things calmer is all.

[Saint]

Go USA!

[Trigger]

Sorry TALOS, my posts aren't directed at Canadians as a whole, but rather at a few select Can'tnadians. In particular, one who can't do anything but try to throw as much poo as possible at anything with an American flag on it, hoping that some will stick. :|

[TALOS]

Sorry TALOS, my posts aren't directed at Canadians as a whole, but rather at a few select Can'tnadians. In particular, one who can't do anything but try to throw as much poo as possible at anything with an American flag on it, hoping that some will stick. :|
Trust me I know, most Canadians have a prob with Americans :roll: , dont know what it is, my inlaws hate Americans so it makes it weird at get togethers, I cant discuss anything, have to sit in corner and twiddle my thumbs or we end up in huge fights. :(

[Jack Mehoff]

Don't worry, my first g/f was a Canadian and she was "great" p-) along with all the strippers in Kingston, Canada. Yes, I still have love for you Canadian.

[TALOS]

Don't worry, my first g/f was a Canadian and she was "great" p-) along with all the strippers in Kingston, Canada. Yes, I still have love for you Canadian.
HAHA, we do have some very nice ladies ;)

[Jack Mehoff]

We're stealing all your women. Resistence is futile

[SFontaine]

Can you show me some sources of this? I don't doubt they've happened but I'd like to read up on some of this.




http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/us_war_crimes/us_war_crimes_in_world_war_II_1.htm


Quite the load of crap.
Your source is this site that calls Iraqi Insurgents "The Opressed" and says 9/11 was treason? Looks like the same ol anti-Jew conspiracy theorist site to me.

[chauncy republicans]

Do you have a crystal ball or something? or are you just parroting what you hear on the news?
Actually that sounds like YOU trigger!

[cut]

Do you have a crystal ball or something? or are you just parroting what you hear on the news?
Actually that sounds like YOU trigger!

lol he has a point.

[Bootneck]

Can you show me some sources of this? I don't doubt they've happened but I'd like to read up on some of this.




http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/us_war_crimes/us_war_crimes_in_world_war_II_1.htm


Quite the load of crap.
Your source is this site that calls Iraqi Insurgents "The Opressed" and says 9/11 was treason? Looks like the same ol anti-Jew conspiracy theorist site to me.

That is just pathetic. With this sites anti-Jew agenda it's no wonder they want to talk about allied "war crimes". Before anyone gives any credence to Ducimus' source check out the site's politics and society page:

http://www.the7thfire.com/politics_and_society.htm

Ducimus - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you didn't bother to look any further into this after you found something to support your ever so poignant argument. I really hope that's the case...

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Ducimus, I gots no problem with you condemning the words of some people here who may have spoken harshly out of rage. But you are insinuating that their words are American policy. You are also painting the illegal actions of some solders (again, you can't cite any proof) as American policy.


One needs to think twice before jumping on an alleged act of barbarism, and examine occurrences within their own military body and ultimately understand this happens everywhere.

Alleged? Do you not agree that what happened did in fact happen, and was in fact barbaric? Can we get at least establish that much? Or has your indoctrination into moral relativism been so complete that you're no longer able to distinguish right from wrong & instead see only 256 shades of gray?

Also, by following the logic of your statement, any act can be justified if I can show it's happened before?

You've stepped on your own land mine. If what happened last week was not an outrage, or a crime, then neither were the other {unverified I may add} American examples from Vietnam. Either they both are, or both aren't.



Iraq is a complicated matter; one cannot act on their inhibition of revenge which in-turn will only create more death and a cyclical and ultimately unstoppable clog of death.

Don't confuse revenge with justice. Sending bank robbers to jail is not revenge. Revenge would be locking them in a room with club wielding bank employees & account holders.

Not exactly sure what you mean by "inhibition of revenge". Inhibition means "something that restricts". Maybe you meant "instinct"? Anyhow - if America was now acting out of revenge, the city would be a smoking hole. Instead we are attempting to find those responsible, as would be done during the normal course of business in any city.



Nations needs to be prepared to harvest the seed they sough. Its ironic one so passionately condemns such events, while these very actions are ingrained in our own military past.

Argh, it's "sew", not sough. I think sough means to grunt. You should take a look at your own oft demonstrated paucity of grammatical ability and ask yourself if you're similarly exhibiting a lack of knowledge regarding military affairs/history. Which you totally frickin' are.

I see no irony in the situation at all. Were atrocities in Vietnam not condemned? Did Americans not protest these actions? Were those responsible not held to account (where it could be proven)? We are only asking the same be done here.

The problem is that there are those folks like yourself who appear to be justifying what happened.

So quit making unverified accusations based on some art-house sh*tbag foreign movie you saw at the indoctrination center, and get back to defending the motherland against Denmark's naked aggression.

[TALOS]

Ducimus, I gots no problem with you condemning the words of some people here who may have spoken harshly out of rage. But you are insinuating that their words are American policy. You are also painting the illegal actions of some solders (again, you can't cite any proof) as American policy.


One needs to think twice before jumping on an alleged act of barbarism, and examine occurrences within their own military body and ultimately understand this happens everywhere.

Alleged? Do you not agree that what happened did in fact happen, and was in fact barbaric? Can we get at least establish that much? Or has your indoctrination into moral relativism been so complete that you're no longer able to distinguish right from wrong & instead see only 256 shades of gray?

Also, by following the logic of your statement, any act can be justified if I can show it's happened before?

You've stepped on your own land mine. If what happened last week was not an outrage, or a crime, then neither were the other {unverified I may add} American examples from Vietnam. Either they both are, or both aren't.



Iraq is a complicated matter; one cannot act on their inhibition of revenge which in-turn will only create more death and a cyclical and ultimately unstoppable clog of death.

Don't confuse revenge with justice. Sending bank robbers to jail is not revenge. Revenge would be locking them in a room with club wielding bank employees & account holders.

Not exactly sure what you mean by "inhibition of revenge". Inhibition means "something that restricts". Maybe you meant "instinct"? Anyhow - if America was now acting out of revenge, the city would be a smoking hole. Instead we are attempting to find those responsible, as would be done during the normal course of business in any city.



Nations needs to be prepared to harvest the seed they sough. Its ironic one so passionately condemns such events, while these very actions are ingrained in our own military past.

Argh, it's "sew", not sough. I think sough means to grunt. You should take a look at your own oft demonstrated paucity of grammatical ability and ask yourself if you're similarly exhibiting a lack of knowledge regarding military affairs/history. Which you totally frickin' are.

I see no irony in the situation at all. Were atrocities in Vietnam not condemned? Did Americans not protest these actions? Were those responsible not held to account (where it could be proven)? We are only asking the same be done here.

The problem is that there are those folks like yourself who appear to be justifying what happened.

So quit making unverified accusations based on some art-house sh*tbag foreign movie you saw at the indoctrination center, and get back to defending the motherland against Denmark's naked aggression.
I agree with everything you say 2 sheds except its sow not sew

[Royal]

Argh, it's "sew", not sough.

Actually it's sow.

And while I'm here, and I don't agree with Ducimus on many things, I agree that (IMHO) the US reaction to the murder of the PMC's is

a. an overreaction

and

b. likely to be counter productive

Unfortunately, investigations (for example by HumInt teams) would have discovered the perpetrators relatively quickly, these people could then have been lifted in surgical raids and tried.

That however would not have provided the required sop to public opinion.

[Trigger]

Do you have a crystal ball or something? or are you just parroting what you hear on the news?
Actually that sounds like YOU trigger!

lol he has a point.

@chumpchange: It does? Where did I make any predictions? If I were parroting the news I'd be moaning about quagmires and the evils of the Bush administration.
I know your desperate to snipe at me, but at least make a better effort than that. :roll:

@cut: lol no, he doesn't. :cantbeli:

@Royal: You're probably right.

[Skaman]

Inhibition:

pent-up, repressed, smothered, stifled, strangled, suppressed “hang-up”

Sough


place (seeds) in the ground for future growth; "She sowed sunflower seeds"

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=sough

[cut]

Do you have a crystal ball or something? or are you just parroting what you hear on the news?
Actually that sounds like YOU trigger!

lol he has a point.

@chumpchange: It does? Where did I make any predictions? If I were parroting the news I'd be moaning about quagmires and the evils of the Bush administration.
I know your desperate to snipe at me, but at least make a better effort than that. :roll:

@cut: lol no, he doesn't. :cantbeli:

@Royal: You're probably right.

How many of us actually know what is going on in Iraq? we rely on the media and even if you get you're information from friends out their, they don't know any better then the press because the situation means that they have to stay fairly cut off. We are ALL guilty of as you said "parroting what we hear on the news" even if we do make up our mind from all sorts of different sources. So in my opinion he does have a point and don't worry I'm not just talking about you.

[Trigger]

Fair enough cut. :)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Yes, yes it is "sow". I'd looked it up to be sure (you know - to check facts before posting online ;) ) & clicked on the noun form, not the verb. Damn these mechanical hands!!! I fall on my sword.

But I still can't find any "sough" apart from archaic use. Ducy must have been paging through a very old thesaurus for that one. Well it's Canada, I guess anything's possible.



Inhibition:
pent-up, repressed, smothered, stifled, strangled, suppressed “hang-up”


Yeah well we know that- but it doesn't make sense in the sentence:

"one cannot act on their inhibition of revenge which in-turn will only create more death and a cyclical and ultimately unstoppable clog of death"

Try substituting the synonyms & it still doesn't work. Any way you slice that, it sounds like one of the Wayan's bros. skits on In Living Color.

You could say "one cannot act against their inhibition" or "one cannot lose one's inhibitions.....". Now write it correctly 100 times & have it on my desk in the morning.

[Skaman]

Yes, yes it is "sow". I'd looked it up to be sure (you know - to check facts before posting online ;) ) & clicked on the noun form, not the verb. Damn these mechanical hands!!! I fall on my sword.

But I still can't find any "sough" apart from archaic use. Ducy must have been paging through a very old thesaurus for that one. Well it's Canada, I guess anything's possible.



Inhibition:
pent-up, repressed, smothered, stifled, strangled, suppressed “hang-up”


Yeah well we know that- but it doesn't make sense in the sentence:

"one cannot act on their inhibition of revenge which in-turn will only create more death and a cyclical and ultimately unstoppable clog of death"

Try substituting the synonyms & it still doesn't work. Any way you slice that, it sounds like one of the Wayan's bros. skits on In Living Color.

You could say "one cannot act against their inhibition" or "one cannot lose one's inhibitions.....". Now write it correctly 100 times & have it on my desk in the morning.


pent up revenge does not make sense? go to hyperdictionary.com, type SOUGH. :cantbeli:


Back on topic please. This was turning into a productive thread....

[csqnsas]

Sorry to all Americans , English and any other allies.

This is not an attack on you. but!

The Bush, Blair and any other administration is not telling the truth. Period.

In my HO and in thousands if not millions we know this war was about oil. Period.

look in history to all the wars for the wrong reasons. I am a Rhodesian, but the country of Rhodesian was incorrect in its policy. Period.

If you care to read about the history of that country, read deep. You might find a few interesting facts. Such as:......


In 1978 a mine proof vehicle with 12 pers in detonated a I.E.D of about 500 kg in Rhodesia. Enough to destroy a MBT. The powers that be defered from telling the population that there had been 12 deaths. No, they let the death notices trickle out over ten days. ( So as not to worry the "voting" people). BULL SH*T.

They were guilty of propoganda. Just as all have been in the last 200 years.


Example..... The US Marines in Iraq have decided to "not inform the press of details of any Deaths or attacks"- for security?? How can a press account in the home town of a dead Marine help the Shea in Iraq???.

In the past 11 days there have been mortar attacks every night on Bagdad Airport - the USA have not informed the rest of the world as they want to try to reduce the news reporting about these and other attacks.

Sorry to tell you all but "ALL" of our politicians are doing the same now. Period.

Bush, Blair, Bertisconi, Schroder . they are all lying to us to enable their own power trips.

They are not keeping the voting population aware of their actions. Bluffing it out trying for a re election.

They do not care if 1 or 10 or 1000 die . They all only care about power and money.

That is what the war in Iraq is all about.

Those who serve are suffering and dying for power in the West.

We all want a big fast car/ADSL/our home life as we desire. Who cares if a few "Arabs" die for it????

IMHO this is wrong - But now its too late, the UK, USA and any other stupid enough to join the coilition will find out over the next 5 years ( unless they all pull out now) that the price of a gallon of cheap fuel has been paid for in blood and suffering of the service man and his family of our fighting men.

P.S - I am going to Afganistan in May and then the Iraq in September. After The Falklands and Bosnia detachments , I think that these will be the most difficult.

[Pook2]

Well, since no one has mentioned any specific events from World War Two, I will.

In Early 1945, March or April if I recall correctly, an American Infantry platoon was approaching a small village which seemed undefended and calm. As the troops came close, a shot was fired and a soldier was hit. The men took cover and tried to figure out where the firing was coming from. As they did that, another shot was fired from another direction, killing another soldier. The Americans panicked and many froze in place near the road to the village. Several other men were killed as they searched for or waited in cover. The Platoon leader then took action and told the men to charge into the village to get out of the open. During the rush, several more soldiers were killed.

The soldiers finally cornered and caprtured the two snipers. They were 16 year old boys.

When the platoon leader learned that these two scrawny boys had killed so many of his men, he had them strung up by their wrists to a tree branch. He then clubbed them to death with the butt of his carbine.

Many young 12th SS soldiers were beaten and tortured by Canadian soldiers outside Caen.

German soldiers were known to crucify Allied soldiers with their genitals cut off and stuffed in their mouths.

Atrocities are commited by all sides, No one is completely innocent.

Don't think I am against America, I am a WW2 29th US Infantry Division reenactor, and I take great pride in it.

[Skaman]

Sorry to all Americans , English and any other allies.

This is not an attack on you. but!

The Bush, Blair and any other administration is not telling the truth. Period.

In my HO and in thousands if not millions we know this war was about oil. Period.

look in history to all the wars for the wrong reasons. I am a , but the country of Rhodesian was incorrect in its policy. Period.

If you care to read about the history of that country, read deep. You might find a few interesting facts. Such as:......


In 1978 a mine proof vehicle with 12 pers in detonated a I.E.D of about 500 kg in Rhodesia. Enough to destroy a MBT. The powers that be defered from telling the population that there had been 12 deaths. No, they let the death notices trickle out over ten days. ( So as not to worry the "voting" people). BULL SH*T.

They were guilty of propoganda. Just as all have been in the last 200 years.


Example..... The US Marines in Iraq have decided to "not inform the press of details of any Deaths or attacks"- for security?? How can a press account in the home town of a dead Marine help the Shea in Iraq???.

In the past 11 days there have been mortar attacks every night on Bagdad Airport - the USA have not informed the rest of the world as they want to try to reduce the news reporting about these and other attacks.

Sorry to tell you all but "ALL" of our politicians are doing the same now. Period.

Bush, Blair, Bertisconi, Schroder . they are all lying to us to enable their own power trips.

They are not keeping the voting population aware of their actions. Bluffing it out trying for a re election.

They do not care if 1 or 10 or 1000 die . They all only care about power and money.

That is what the war in Iraq is all about.

Those who serve are suffering and dying for power in the West.

We all want a big fast car/ADSL/our home life as we desire. Who cares if a few "Arabs" die for it????

IMHO this is wrong - But now its too late, the UK, USA and any other stupid enough to join the coilition will find out over the next 5 years ( unless they all pull out now) that the price of a gallon of cheap fuel has been paid for in blood and suffering of the service man and his family of our fighting men.

P.S - I am going to Afganistan in May and then the Iraq in September. After The Falklands and Bosnia detachments , I think that these will be the most difficult.

That was an interesting post, particularly form a Rhodesian perspective. Thanks for sharing. American foreign policy has forever been run according to self interest, and it appears now, in our global community, these acts are becoming all the more drastic. I personally do not think OIL is the sole beneficiary for the USA, as it would be political suicide. Rather, the nation wants to establish a western foothold, build a Middle Eastern trading partner and bolster their supply of oil reserves. Additionally, Iraq serves a new territory to expand the theme of Americanization and big business, ultimately improving the American economic whole. 911 provided the perfect opportunity for the nation to engage in such campaigns as the populous is so clouded with hate, and thirst for blood. Again, thanks for sharing.

[TALOS]

Sorry to all Americans , English and any other allies.

This is not an attack on you. but!

The Bush, Blair and any other administration is not telling the truth. Period.

In my HO and in thousands if not millions we know this war was about oil. Period.

look in history to all the wars for the wrong reasons. I am a Rhodesian, but the country of Rhodesian was incorrect in its policy. Period.

If you care to read about the history of that country, read deep. You might find a few interesting facts. Such as:......


In 1978 a mine proof vehicle with 12 pers in detonated a I.E.D of about 500 kg in Rhodesia. Enough to destroy a MBT. The powers that be defered from telling the population that there had been 12 deaths. No, they let the death notices trickle out over ten days. ( So as not to worry the "voting" people). BULL SH*T.

They were guilty of propoganda. Just as all have been in the last 200 years.


Example..... The US Marines in Iraq have decided to "not inform the press of details of any Deaths or attacks"- for security?? How can a press account in the home town of a dead Marine help the Shea in Iraq???.

In the past 11 days there have been mortar attacks every night on Bagdad Airport - the USA have not informed the rest of the world as they want to try to reduce the news reporting about these and other attacks.

Sorry to tell you all but "ALL" of our politicians are doing the same now. Period.

Bush, Blair, Bertisconi, Schroder . they are all lying to us to enable their own power trips.

They are not keeping the voting population aware of their actions. Bluffing it out trying for a re election.

They do not care if 1 or 10 or 1000 die . They all only care about power and money.

That is what the war in Iraq is all about.

Those who serve are suffering and dying for power in the West.

We all want a big fast car/ADSL/our home life as we desire. Who cares if a few "Arabs" die for it????

IMHO this is wrong - But now its too late, the UK, USA and any other stupid enough to join the coilition will find out over the next 5 years ( unless they all pull out now) that the price of a gallon of cheap fuel has been paid for in blood and suffering of the service man and his family of our fighting men.

P.S - I am going to Afganistan in May and then the Iraq in September. After The Falklands and Bosnia detachments , I think that these will be the most difficult.
Well, IMO you are being a tad cynical, the reason the reports of the deaths arent being aired is because it adds to the intel the enemy have. The more knowledge you have the better your planning, the Marines are wisely trying to cut part of the intelligence that is being put out.
And if it is beamed to the states on an INTERNATIONAL network of course the people in Baghdad will see it.

P.S - I am going to Afganistan in May and then the Iraq in September. After The Falklands and Bosnia detachments , I think that these will be the most difficult.
If your commanders follow the same methods it could save your life not to have the enemy know what has been most effective against you.
Better they have to guess then that they know ;)

[Trigger]

ducimus19 wrote:

Additionally, Iraq serves a new territory to expand the theme of Americanization and big business, ultimately improving the American economic whole. 911 provided the perfect opportunity for the nation to engage in such campaigns as the populous is so clouded with hate, and thirst for blood.
Well, I'm glad you finally got around to answering the question you dodged earlier.
I was right. The reason you sited only allegations of American atrocities was because as usual, your hatred of all things American was the basis of this thread.

By the way, I'm sure the families of the 3000+ victims of 9/11 would really love your description of the deaths of their loved ones as a 'perfect opportunity'.

You make me sick.

[chauncy republicans]

By the way, I'm sure the families of the 3000+ victims of 9/11 would really love your description of the deaths of their loved ones as a 'perfect opportunity'.
Who makes you sicker... the guy that points this kind of thing out, or the politicians he talks about?! "I'm sure the families of the 3000+ victims of 9/11 would really love" how George Bush uses their loved one's as a platform for his political agenda! Or how about the family of the dead firefighter he used in a CAMPAIGN AD!

[Trigger]

By the way, I'm sure the families of the 3000+ victims of 9/11 would really love your description of the deaths of their loved ones as a 'perfect opportunity'.
Who makes you sicker... the guy that points this kind of thing out, or the politicians he talks about?! "I'm sure the families of the 3000+ victims of 9/11 would really love" how George Bush uses their loved one's as a platform for his political agenda! Or how about the family of the dead firefighter he used in a CAMPAIGN AD!
The 'guy' who 'points this kind of thing out' in such polite terms, definitely. I'm sure he's doing cartwheels right now at the news of more American deaths. He can't help himself.

Some have already discussed the use of imagery from 9/11 in another thread. I'm not going to go through and rehash it all again, but I'll say this: It was an act of war against our country, thus it's fair to use those images as a historical frame of reference for campaign ads, IMHO.

[Beowulf]

yeah ol "W" was running things at the time and responded well (a-stan). I think that is a good point in his favor. So I don't have a problem with him referencing 9-11.

[M1A2U2]

the populous is so clouded with hate, and thirst for blood.

Please, don't tell me what I am and what I'm not. you have no right to. Are you good friends with the populous? you must know them. You assume because the majority of Americans supported the war that they are thirsty for blood. Don't make generalisations about people you dont know. By the way you spoke about "the populous" im gonna guess you are not American. I don't understand it. We liberate people...rebuild their country and the only thing we ask in return is a little bit of land to bury our dead.
Bottom line: dont generalize me or my fellow americans

[Skaman]

the populous is so clouded with hate, and thirst for blood.

Please, don't tell me what I am and what I'm not. you have no right to. Are you good friends with the populous? you must know them. You assume because the majority of Americans supported the war that they are thirsty for blood. Don't make generalisations about people you dont know. By the way you spoke about "the populous" im gonna guess you are not American. I don't understand it. We liberate people...rebuild their country and the only thing we ask in return is a little bit of land to bury our dead.
Bottom line: dont generalize me or my fellow americans


I know many Americans, and have read responses from hundreds. It is not a generalization, it is a response widely circulated across media sources. After 911, the American people wanted payback, and the government took advantage of the nation in this emotional state with their own political agenda.

[usa320]

oh no----MUCKTARD ALERT!!!