Truth Held Hostage

[hist2004]

Truth Held Hostage

INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY

Posted 9/19/2006

Rules Of War: Jimmy Carter, the president who let our hostages twist in the wind for 444 days in Iran, now says the Bush administration, by condoning torture, has weakened our position in the world.

Like the houseguest who overstays his welcome, the former president chimed in on what constitutes torture these days by opining Monday that the administration has "redefined torture to make it convenient for them" and "has stonewalled so they can continue to perpetrate this illegal punishment."

Worse yet, we've "lost the support and trust and confidence we had for generations" and our actions "stir up additional animosity and threats of violence not only against us, but against allies like Great Britain."

Just who's been stirred up? Perhaps the jihadists, who willingly hang American corpses from bridges, saw the heads off American civilian workers and dismember U.S. soldiers. One can only wonder what the jihadists might do if we really made them mad.

As for the British, just being a Western democracy allied with the U.S. is enough to stir up the jihadists. Tell us, Jimmy, just what did the British do to provoke the London subway bombings? What did we do to provoke 9/11?

Did the interrogation methods used in Pakistan to gain key information about the pending plot to blow 10 trans-Atlantic passenger jets out of the sky violate the torture definitions espoused by you, McCain, Graham, Warner and Collins?

And just what, pray tell, constitutes "outrages upon personal dignity"? The New York Times reported Sept. 10 how Pakistani authorities captured Abu Zubaydah, al-Qaida's personnel director, who was turned over to U.S. jurisdiction and whisked away to Bangkok for interrogation by the CIA. The CIA storm troopers then put Zubaydah into a freezing room where he was forced to listen to music by the Red Hot Chili Peppers. That, apparently, was enough to cause Zubaydah to break.

The Times quoted a "government official" as saying: "The fact of the matter is that Abu Zubaydah was defiant and evasive until the approved procedures were used. He soon began to provide information on key al-Qaida operators to help us find and capture those responsible for the 9/11 attacks."

The information provided by Zubaydah enabled the military to prevent an al-Qaida attack inside the U.S. and led to the capture of two organizers of the 9/11 attacks — Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh. They in turn led authorities to the capture of the leader of al-Qaida's Asian affiliate, Hambali, and 17 operatives.

If Carter and McCain had their way, we'd be reading these barbarians their Miranda rights while offering them milk and cookies, if we captured them at all. We're in a new kind of war, and if all we do is offer those who want to kill us three square meals in a climate-controlled room, we're going to lose that war.

When the soldiers of a Somali warlord dragged dead Americans through the streets of Mogadishu, Osama bin Laden watched and saw American weakness, something that only served to strengthen his resolve to attack us. One can only wonder how hard he must be laughing at our angst about "affronts to personal dignity."

We don't know the musical preferences of Pfcs. Kristian Menchaca and Thomas Tucker of the 101st Airborne's "Strike" Brigade. We do know they won't be getting Red Cross visits or military tribunals. After their capture by jihadists in June, they were tortured and beheaded. So gruesome were their deaths that DNA tests were required to positively identify their remains.

Tucker and Menchaca were obeying all the rules of war as defined by the Geneva Conventions. They were wearing uniforms and proper insignia. They carried their arms openly.

We know how the jihadists treat their prisoners — they slaughter them and throw their remains on the street. Making terrorists sit in a cold room and listen to the Red Hot Chili Peppers is not torture.

And we don't have to prove we are better than the jihadists. We are better.

Source: (http://www.investors.com/editorial/editorialcontent.asp?secid=1501&status=article&id=243558282894771&secure=2)

Hist2004

[nimer bortuqaal]

This kind of mentality is killing America and much of the western world. The kind of mindset that says you cannot hurt anyone's feelings, where no one stands up for what is right, where you make excuses before you'd ever think about self-evaluation... weak minded people are just that.. weak. So what if a prisioner is made to stand for a long time in one spot. So what if his/her muscles hurt. So what if they are tired. Earlier on they were probably trying to kill you and if released, more than likely will try again.

This is the same mindset where during Ramadan the prison guards are not allowed to eat or drink or read anything with photos in it during their 12 hours shift because they might "offend" the prisoners. The same mindset that makes a ISAF pilot not drop his ordinance while troops are in heavy contact for one and a half hours (even after the target was marked by arti and confirmed by multiple sources) because he has to ask his mommy (isaf) for permission and then he leaves without dropping. The same kind of mindset that doesnt allow soldiers to carry loaded weapons until they are taking direct fire. The same kind of mindset that doesnt allow medevac birds to land because they might have one bullet come their way as a soldier bleeds out for two hours. The same kind of mindset that would send troops to battle and then either half ass support them or not allow them to fight (why the .... would you send them and waste everyone's time then? oh, yea, to tell the world you support this endevour).

When did everyone in politics become such a wuss? Oh, until we get attacked again on our own soil and then they will want blood from everyone. Of course, that is until a year or so passes and then they will act like we deserved to be attacked.

If a prisoner gets roughed up a little so what! Whaaa. Our own school system is a rougher place than a US military prison. And this whole thing about personal dignity! Give me a break.

Sorry for the rant. Im just ashamed at our weakness.

[Geezah]

This says it all,

Like the houseguest who overstays his welcome
Oh, and this,
http://bokertov.typepad.com/btb/images/jimmy_carter_michael_moore.jpg

[annihilation]

This kind of mentality is killing America and much of the western world. The kind of mindset that says you cannot hurt anyone's feelings, where no one stands up for what is right, where you make excuses before you'd ever think about self-evaluation... weak minded people are just that.. weak. So what if a prisioner is made to stand for a long time in one spot. So what if his/her muscles hurt. So what if they are tired. Earlier on they were probably trying to kill you and if released, more than likely will try again.

This is the same mindset where during Ramadan the prison guards are not allowed to eat or drink or read anything with photos in it during their 12 hours shift because they might "offend" the prisoners. The same mindset that makes a ISAF pilot not drop his ordinance while troops are in heavy contact for one and a half hours (even after the target was marked by arti and confirmed by multiple sources) because he has to ask his mommy (isaf) for permission and then he leaves without dropping. The same kind of mindset that doesnt allow soldiers to carry loaded weapons until they are taking direct fire. The same kind of mindset that doesnt allow medevac birds to land because they might have one bullet come their way as a soldier bleeds out for two hours. The same kind of mindset that would send troops to battle and then either half ass support them or not allow them to fight (why the .... would you send them and waste everyone's time then? oh, yea, to tell the world you support this endevour).

When did everyone in politics become such a wuss? Oh, until we get attacked again on our own soil and then they will want blood from everyone. Of course, that is until a year or so passes and then they will act like we deserved to be attacked.

If a prisoner gets roughed up a little so what! Whaaa. Our own school system is a rougher place than a US military prison. And this whole thing about personal dignity! Give me a break.

Sorry for the rant. Im just ashamed at our weakness.

Hey agree, what happened to the old days of leveling a city that tried to oppose you. I agree we got soft and to concerned over our enemies health. That being said we should have never gone into Iraq so we wouldn't have to worry about them in the first. The greatest gift we could have given those who fight us would have been the continuation of saddams rule.

[hist2004]

The greatest gift we could have given those who fight us would have been the continuation of saddams rule.

Try telling the Shiite and Kurds that.....

Hist2004

[nimer bortuqaal]

i really do believe in living a peaceful life with equality for everyone, but when others are oppressed or when you are attacked by a whole bunch of fools that want death and distruction to everyone who doesnt think like they do.... then it is time to go to war and to get rid of them or make them realize that they cannot act in this manner.

so you have a garden. a beautiful garden. you take care of and water it. then you notice a weed. a plant that produces nothing good and if left alone, will slowly degrade your garden. you have two choices - leave it alone because it's a plant too or rip it up and let it die so that the whole of the garden can prosper. a garden left untended will be a garden of weeds.

everyday people kill bugs they deem as pests, spray poisons on weeds, cull livestock that doesnt make the grade, abort children they don't want, etc,. but when it comes to bad people, people that will never peacefully coexist with society, we get all soft and dont want to hurt their feelings. 'maybe we can talk them into being nice, productive members of society?' well, not everyone wants to play nice because they are nothing but bullies. we appease these people currently. for how long or what is it that needs to happen to get our modern, free society to get their heads out of their asses?

[joedirt]

ahh the typical argument of idiotic pro torture right wing nuts "they dont wear uniforms and they dont follow the geneva conventions so why should we"

such crap.

[nimer bortuqaal]

listen here bud. i dont condone torture. only fools would say that something like disrupting sleep patterns or making someone stand in the corner is torture. (these are just examples - i know you didnt say that). i bet you have never been up 36 hours straight after physical activity, but if you have or had been, you would know that you'd sell out your sister for some sleep and a bite of food. the people we are fighting don't wear uniforms and they like to use little kids as shields - they are cowards and yes i have seen this myself - like two days ago. the geneva conventions are poorly written if you read them. they leave too much to interpretation for one. second, how in the hell do you put rules on war? politics and law should be addressed before fighting ever starts. once fighting starts, it's game on and it's time to win. you cannot say it's ok to drop a gbu-38 and not ok lay a land mine. killing is killing no matter how you want to slice it. let the men do the dirty work of removing evil and you focus on making sure their feelings dont get hurt in your comfortable armchair.

[CPL Trevoga]

ahh the typical argument of idiotic pro torture right wing nuts "they dont wear uniforms and they dont follow the geneva conventions so why should we"

such crap.

Pal, you're could be easily labeled self-hatin', defeatist, pro-weakness and submissive, no-backbone idiot.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

ahh the typical argument of idiotic pro torture right wing nuts "they dont wear uniforms and they dont follow the geneva conventions so why should we"

such crap.

Well that's a nice straw man you've set up...but I won't be the one to knock it down. Call me crazy, but if you're going to disagree with the article, why not start with what the article actually says?

[JKD]

Rules Of War: Jimmy Carter, the president who let our hostages twist in the wind for 444 days in Iran
So I was 2 or 3 years old when that whole thing went down but from what I've learned; The President Carter who allowed OMFG DELTA!11 to start planning, gathering intelligence within Iran's borders, which all takes time, and then authorized them to go in and attempt an armed rescue of those hostages, Jimmy Carter? The one who, when the rescue failed due to events out of his control, then worked diplomatically with Iran to secure the release of those hostages which was granted within minutes of Reagan's inauguration? .....Yeah that terrorist loving pussy.


If Carter and McCain had their way,
Yeah...McCain. What does that guy know about treating prisoners during war.


we'd be reading these barbarians their Miranda rights while offering them milk and cookies, if we captured them at all. Yeah that's exactly what that terrorist loving, freedom hating, left wing, pussy, who failed to learn the lessons of 9/11 is saying.


We're in a new kind of war Exactly. As much as some might want it to be, this ain't WWII all over again. Opinion on the street does indeed matter very much in this new kind of war. It's at the very heart of this war.

I don't claim to have all, or even many, of the answers to prisoner treatment but I don't think that saying you want them treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention, that you you want them treated better than our prisoners are treated in their hands(not saying they're not), that we're better than our enemy and are indeed the "good guys" means you want them having "milk and cookies" or whatever the **** this article is trying to say.

[nimer bortuqaal]

if you think that the 'milk and cookies' thing in this article is a bit overboard, then yes, maybe it its, but it's a direct reflection of the bull.... that the military has to put up with when it comes to prisoners. we shouldnt have to treat any prisoners better than they treat us - we should only treat them like a human being and that is it. we treat them way better. all they should have is food and water, clothing, shelter, and somewhere to ****. they shouldnt be cut up or electricuted or anything like that, but debate we are having over prisoners comes from things no worse than what happens on a playground. if they have to go without some creature comforts so what! the people in g bay treat their own children and wives worse than rabid dogs let alone how they treat their enemies. if i hurt their feelings by bringing in a female to question them and she is wearing short sleeves and shorts than so ....ing what. people need to grow up and stop being babies in this world. this is war and the sooner people understand that the sooner it will end and i can go back to my own family and have some peace. keep acting like babies and not only am i going to miss my family for years to come, but some of you may be joining me whether you like it or not.

[Durandal]

I think we can see actions taken against Maher Arar, a canadian citizen, TAKEN here in the United States and then tortured in Syria and then released when the decided he was innocent (he was on a watch list for having coffee with someone that was on a watch list) and have a legit claim on the value of torture.

I am not too sure how ANY TRUE American can stomach stuff like this. Yeah, I am all about treating bad guys like bad guys, but who are the bad guys? The guy that a bunch of illiterate Pakistani soldiers capture and is SOLD to U.S. agents? I mean, WHAT THE ƒUCK? His response: "I am here for work, I am not a terrorist." We think he is lying because, hey, the Pakis got him for us, and then torture him or have some barbaric nation we should not be supporting because its neither transparent NOR democratic do it for us.

I think what we need is for everyone that supports torture on this forum to get arrested for no better reason that you were discussing this very topic on this forum and spend a year in Jordan, Egypt, or Syria while they try to get the REAL truth out of you.

[Hellfish]

Truth Held Hostage

INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY

Posted 9/19/2006

Rules Of War: Jimmy Carter, the president who let our hostages twist in the wind for 444 days in Iran, now says the Bush administration, by condoning torture, has weakened our position in the world.

I suppose Desert One was "accidentally" forgotten about. Our attempt failed. What else could we do?


Like the houseguest who overstays his welcome, the former president chimed in on what constitutes torture these days by opining Monday that the administration has "redefined torture to make it convenient for them" and "has stonewalled so they can continue to perpetrate this illegal punishment."

Worse yet, we've "lost the support and trust and confidence we had for generations" and our actions "stir up additional animosity and threats of violence not only against us, but against allies like Great Britain."

Just who's been stirred up? Perhaps the jihadists, who willingly hang American corpses from bridges, saw the heads off American civilian workers and dismember U.S. soldiers. One can only wonder what the jihadists might do if we really made them mad.

I suppose the thousands of Muslims I constantly see protesting us for this or that are all just jihadists and we'll simply get around to killing them later. Oh wait, never mind - the average Joe Muslim didn't react to Abu Ghraib, did they? Everyone in the world supports our holding people without trial or rights at Guantanamo. How silly of me to forget. Yeah, it's only the jihadis that we've managed to piss off.


As for the British, just being a Western democracy allied with the U.S. is enough to stir up the jihadists. Tell us, Jimmy, just what did the British do to provoke the London subway bombings? What did we do to provoke 9/11?

I don't imagine Iraq had anything to do with the former, and I don't imagine our support for Israel and basing of forces in Saudi Arabia had anything to do with the latter.


Did the interrogation methods used in Pakistan to gain key information about the pending plot to blow 10 trans-Atlantic passenger jets out of the sky violate the torture definitions espoused by you, McCain, Graham, Warner and Collins?

How do we know that we wouldn't have uncovered that plot with or without intel gathered by torture?


And just what, pray tell, constitutes "outrages upon personal dignity"? The New York Times reported Sept. 10 how Pakistani authorities captured Abu Zubaydah, al-Qaida's personnel director, who was turned over to U.S. jurisdiction and whisked away to Bangkok for interrogation by the CIA. The CIA storm troopers then put Zubaydah into a freezing room where he was forced to listen to music by the Red Hot Chili Peppers. That, apparently, was enough to cause Zubaydah to break.

Freezing a man isn't torture?


The Times quoted a "government official" as saying: "The fact of the matter is that Abu Zubaydah was defiant and evasive until the approved procedures were used. He soon began to provide information on key al-Qaida operators to help us find and capture those responsible for the 9/11 attacks."

It still didn't help us prevent 9/11 did it?


The information provided by Zubaydah enabled the military to prevent an al-Qaida attack inside the U.S. and led to the capture of two organizers of the 9/11 attacks — Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh. They in turn led authorities to the capture of the leader of al-Qaida's Asian affiliate, Hambali, and 17 operatives.

What attack did it prevent?


If Carter and McCain had their way, we'd be reading these barbarians their Miranda rights while offering them milk and cookies, if we captured them at all. We're in a new kind of war, and if all we do is offer those who want to kill us three square meals in a climate-controlled room, we're going to lose that war.

So torture and humiliation of Arabs is going to help us win over the Muslim world? I mean, you can only fight a successful insurgency with the support of the population, right? And they're gonna be all for us torturing, right?


When the soldiers of a Somali warlord dragged dead Americans through the streets of Mogadishu, Osama bin Laden watched and saw American weakness, something that only served to strengthen his resolve to attack us. One can only wonder how hard he must be laughing at our angst about "affronts to personal dignity."

Yeah, we shouldda nuked Mogadishu for that.


We don't know the musical preferences of Pfcs. Kristian Menchaca and Thomas Tucker of the 101st Airborne's "Strike" Brigade. We do know they won't be getting Red Cross visits or military tribunals. After their capture by jihadists in June, they were tortured and beheaded. So gruesome were their deaths that DNA tests were required to positively identify their remains.

So it makes it OK for us to do the same to others? Because by doing so we'll - insh'allah - put the fear of God into them, right? It won't devolve into a quid pro quo.


Tucker and Menchaca were obeying all the rules of war as defined by the Geneva Conventions. They were wearing uniforms and proper insignia. They carried their arms openly.

We know how the jihadists treat their prisoners — they slaughter them and throw their remains on the street. Making terrorists sit in a cold room and listen to the Red Hot Chili Peppers is not torture.

And we don't have to prove we are better than the jihadists. We are better.

But we just don't act like it.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Just because the enemy behaves in one way does not mean we can act in the same way.

Winning the hearts and minds of the people in the Middle East is just as if not more important then winning on the battlefield.

This we will not do under any of the proposals made by Bush/Howard/Blair in this so called war.

[Durandal]

I am just wondering when all the smart people around the U.S. wake up and realize that NOT torturing someone is NOT a weakness.

[Hellfish]

I am just wondering when all the smart people around the U.S. wake up and realize that NOT torturing someone is NOT a weakness.

Exactly. The FBI and local police haven't used torture in years yet they still seem to be able to get their information. Or are they weak too?

[nimer bortuqaal]

Condoning torture and debating what is torture are two different things. Making someone cold or tired or a bit hungry is not torture. Starving someone, cutting someone, drowning someone is. What I am saying and I feel many others are saying is that as a whole you cannot even say a bad word to someone without it being considered torture or inhumane or against some convention.

I can guarantee that if some of you actually left your computer room and dealt with some of the people who are being questioned or held captive you would blow your top and do something to that individual(s) that would go against what you are saying now. It's always easy to judge when you are far removed from situation. It's kind of like my old friend that was anti-gun until he woke up one night to find an armed robber in his home with his family present. Thankfully the robber left his family unharmed. The next day this guy calls me to help him pick out a gun.

I think the real problem a lot of people have is that they are playing politics first and they let this cloud their judgement on every topic under the sun.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

No not really.

I'm pretty well versed in some examples of what is actually done. Could say I have 1st hand experiance.

[Geezah]

No not really.

I'm pretty well versed in some examples of what is actually done. Could say I have 1st hand experiance.

Ok plastic pants, that about all we need to know on that subject;)

[nimer bortuqaal]

So you are well versed in what is actually done in this "so called war"? Maybe it's time for you to turn yourself in to the authorities for you war crimes then, mate.

[hist2004]

ABCNews Brian Ross Bombshell: No Doubt Coercive Interrogation Broke Prisoners, Saved Lives (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1705305/posts)

Interview with Brian Ross on O'rielly (video) ^ (http://www.freerepublic.com/%5Ehttp://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/20/bombshell-abc-independently-confirms-success-of-cia-torture-tactics/?print=1) | 9/20/2006
ABC News Chief Investigative Correspondent Brian Ross says all his CIA agent sources -- a portion of whom opposed controversial interrogation methods on legal or moral grounds -- agreed the methods worked to break all 14 high value Al Qaeda leaders in custody. In some cases Al Qaeda members and plots were revealed, saving lives. Follow link to view video of TV interview. Ross has confirmed CIA interrogation techniques have worked. CIA interrogation techniques, particularly "waterboarding", worked with 14 captured senior Al Qaeda terrorists. These CIA interrogations were directly responsible for foiling a plot to bring down the largest building in Los Angeles.


Hist2004

[Dasein]

Making someone cold or tired or a bit hungry is not torture. Starving someone, cutting someone, drowning someone is.

Exposure to extreme heat or cold can and certainly is torture, as is sleep deprivation. Lack of sleep will kill you just as surely as will lack of food and water.


What I am saying and I feel many others are saying is that as a whole you cannot even say a bad word to someone without it being considered torture or inhumane or against some convention.

Some may feel this way, but they are wrong.


I can guarantee that if some of you actually left your computer room and dealt with some of the people who are being questioned or held captive you would blow your top and do something to that individual(s) that would go against what you are saying now. It's always easy to judge when you are far removed from situation. It's kind of like my old friend that was anti-gun until he woke up one night to find an armed robber in his home with his family present. Thankfully the robber left his family unharmed. The next day this guy calls me to help him pick out a gun.

So you're saying the need to employ torture is based on an emotional response, a visceral reaction to how bad these people are? Torture, then, is a result of anger and a desire for revenge? Or perhaps as the case of your friend illustrates, those who use torture do so because they feel powerless and violated?


I think the real problem a lot of people have is that they are playing politics first and they let this cloud their judgement on every topic under the sun.

Everything is political.

[nimer bortuqaal]

lack of sleep wont kill you. your body will just shut down and youll just go to sleep. ya'll are taking this to the extreme and what i am saying is that a little bit of taking one's little creature comforts is not torture, but a few of you seem to think that it is.

secondly, you are twisting words. what i am saying is that ya'll judge a situation probably without ever having been in that situation and if you were to be in that situation, you may act differently than you say you would act now. when bad luck or a tramatizing event happens to a person sometimes they will act in a way that they never thought possible. yes, some people do use torture because they have felt powerless at times and then they gain power... typical school yard bully. not everything is political. some people can think for themselves and take each event as a separate entity and come up with a solution without using politics in their decision making process. some people are able to see a different point of view and adjust their own viewpoint when given new information and then some are not. and back to your other point; so saying something bad to someone is now torture? so if i make fun of your religion or lack of, your skin color, your political view point, your mother's looks, etc. this is torture? society has lost its spine. no one has a right to not be offended.

[Hollis]

No not really.

I'm pretty well versed in some examples of what is actually done. Could say I have 1st hand experiance.


Mutual consent in S&M or Bondage is not considered torture, more like the San Francisco version of frolicking in the hay loft. :oops:

[Hiroshima]

o.O

Hollis....

[Dasein]

lack of sleep wont kill you. your body will just shut down and youll just go to sleep. ya'll are taking this to the extreme and what i am saying is that a little bit of taking one's little creature comforts is not torture, but a few of you seem to think that it is.

How much sleep are detainees allowed? How long do sleep deprivation methods go on? What are the long-term health and psychological effects of these practices?

Ideally, torture wouldn't seem like torture - it would involve innocuous objects, often those found in everyday life or practices like sleep deprivation, exposure to extreme heat or cold or other things that people will not readily associate with torture, things that many people would dismiss entirely. This has the final effect of denying the victim the small solace of the sympathy often afforded victims of torture. In other words, you continue to torture them by denying them the public recognition that they were even tortured.

[nimer bortuqaal]

exactly my point. it's the little things that will slowly just break you down that arent torture. lets say i wake you up earlier and earlier every day for a couple of days and then once you are so tired you go to sleep for an hour and i wake you up again. you will feel misrable and will maybe say something in exchange for a nap. really not a whole lot different than military basic training.

[Dasein]

No, what I am talking about is real torture, but done in such a way that it isn't describable to others in such a way that it makes them empathize with you. If you're strapped to a matress frame and have electrodes hooked to your ********s or have bamboo slivers shoved under your fingernails, people can empathize with that sort of thing. They know it would cause a lot of pain and feel sympathetic towards you.

The smart torturer will not do things so obvious. He will use techniques that do not cause any obvious physical harm, or cause acute pain, but nonetheless place the victim in extreme physical and mental distress, but do not allow the victim to effectively communicate his suffering to others.

[California Joe]

If you've ever bothered to read anything that ibstolidude posts or a few of our other members that actually have first hand knowledge of how this works and what works best, you'd know that torture doesn't work. There is a large difference between abusing people and intelligently gathering intel.

Dasein, do you have a point?

And by the way, any douchebag that should presume to school John McCain on what is and what isn't torture can blow me. Or spend years in a Vietnamese prison camp before they run their suck.

[ElHombre]

Condoning torture and debating what is torture are two different things.

Luckily for us, this debate was settled almost sixty years ago. Between the Geneva Conventions and the US War Crimes Act, it's been pretty clear for a looong while now what constitues torture by US laws. No one's had a problem with it until this bunch of numbnuts came along.

The debate's over. The only reason Congress is even having this debate is because the folks in the admin need their ass covered from prosecution and jail sentences. That's the real reason for all this talk. Everything else is window dressing.

[annihilation]

No, what I am talking about is real torture, but done in such a way that it isn't describable to others in such a way that it makes them empathize with you. If you're strapped to a matress frame and have electrodes hooked to your ********s or have bamboo slivers shoved under your fingernails, people can empathize with that sort of thing. They know it would cause a lot of pain and feel sympathetic towards you.

The smart torturer will not do things so obvious. He will use techniques that do not cause any obvious physical harm, or cause acute pain, but nonetheless place the victim in extreme physical and mental distress, but do not allow the victim to effectively communicate his suffering to others.


So wouldn't cutting the victims tongue out count as not allowing the the victim to effectively communicate?

[Dasein]

So wouldn't cutting the victims tongue out count as not allowing the the victim to effectively communicate?

Obviously not. Torture that leaves gross physical evidence like that is easily communicated.

[Hollis]

Obviously not. Torture that leaves gross physical evidence like that is easily communicated.


UGG!! torture is not for information. Communication, yes, it tells other people to behave or else.

torture is for intimidation and control.

[Durandal]

Condoning torture and debating what is torture are two different things. Making someone cold or tired or a bit hungry is not torture. Starving someone, cutting someone, drowning someone is.

It's always easy to judge when you are far removed from situation.

Bull$hit.

Complete and utter excuse ridden bull$hit.

We aren't talking about calling someone "fancy pants", we are talking about stripping off their goddamn finger nails. We are talking about taking human beings that have not a single goddamn shred of due process, be they our citizens, or another legitimate foreign country and doing "bad things".

And yeah, its REAL ƒucking easy to judge. We have laws, we are supposedly a world leader in civil rights, freedoms, and a transparent representative government...

Goddamn, you sound like one of those people defending the mother that dumped her newly born baby in a dumpster: "Well, you were not in her shoes."

What a load of crap, its wrong and its illegal, end of discussion.

[nimer bortuqaal]

durandal, why dont you re-read the quote in your last post. i didnt say pulling nails was ok. i didnt say torture was ok. i have been trying to say that what some people consider torture isnt torture. in the geneva conventions there are some grey areas that say you cannot humiliate or degrade a person who is captive. making one feel bad emotionally is not the same as making one hurt physically. like i said, "Condoning torture and debating what is torture are two different things".

as far as due process goes... in what war has there been due process? you capture an enemy on the battlefield and then you hold them until the war is over - usually. this is war not COPS. are you going to pull troops out of the field to sit in a court proceeding so they can testify? are you going to give up secret ways we gather intel so you can present a case for the enemy captive? get a grip.

so end of discussion? i guess you're in charge of free speach today

[XShipRider]

Well that's a nice straw man you've set up...but I won't be the one to knock it down. Call me crazy, but if you're going to disagree with the article, why not start with what the article actually says?

Agree. Also agree with whomever said "disrupting sleep patterns" isn't
torture. If that's the case then domestic police interrogations will have to
be changed. They often have endurance sessions with suspects
which, in the eyes of those so quick to protect our external enemies,
would be considered torture.

As for former President Carter, isn't there a house somewhere that
needs a nail? He should stick to Habitat for Humanities, something
he's very good at.

The Geneva Conventions were written for those who conduct war
in a civil manner (oxymoron?), those willing to stick by it's rules.
What Alexander Hamilton stated in Federalist Paper #15 still holds
true today. He wrote:


There is nothing absurd or impracticable in the idea of a league or
alliance between independent nations for certain defined purposes
precisely stated in a treaty regulating all the details of time, place,
circumstance, and quantity; leaving nothing to future discretion; and
depending for its execution on the good faith of the parties. Compacts
of this kind exist among all civilized nations, subject to the usual
vicissitudes of peace and war, of observance and non-observance, as the
interests or passions of the contracting powers dictate.

The Geneva Conventions are clearly for "certain defined purposes"
and a treaty of sorts. Unfortunately the "good faith of the parties"
does not apply to Al Qaeda because they're neither a party to the
compact in question nor do they abide by international law in good
faith. And there's no way to wedge them in any form into the
"civilized nations" mold.

[artistoli]

Er... people... we are fighting a real war here; most people in the west, living in their cosy bubbles, just don't want to aknowledge it. In any war we have to know our enemy. We can't possible distinguish between individual muslims as we will miss-identify many; thus we have to lump them all together in one lot. It's what we had to do to the Germans in both world wars, and the Soviets during the Cold War.... it's the only way to win a war. When discussing the treatment of enemies it is foolhardy to even try to apply the same human rights as we apply to ourselves.

The world is not a nice place right now, and we have to start fighting with resolve or we won't even recognise this world in 20 years from now; it will be under Sharia law.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

Ok plastic pants, that about all we need to know on that subject;)

Just trying to living the mood up man.


:)

[Durandal]

as far as due process goes... in what war has there been due process? you capture an enemy on the battlefield and then you hold them until the war is over - usually. this is war not COPS. are you going to pull troops out of the field to sit in a court proceeding so they can testify? are you going to give up secret ways we gather intel so you can present a case for the enemy captive? get a grip.

Ummm...we normally do not pick these guys up on the "battlefield".

Nor am I suggesting we take, say, the Taliban (a lawful enemy force) and give then special rights.

You make it sound like there is a well defined area of engagement.

We arrested, detained, then flew to BAD Islamic/Persin nation a Canadian national.

We have done this to AMERICAN CITIZENS...

Don't tell me to get a grip. Some of the stuff we are doing you expect to hear about in Iran, not the US.

[nimer bortuqaal]

there is a well defined area of engagement - afghanistan. we are fighting taliban and a.q. and the hig and some others. the people we pick up in other locals are still a.q. or hig or whatever. it would be like picking up a nazi in argentina in 1944.

i'll tell you to get a grip as you tell me that what i say is excuse ridden bull. i dont doubt that there have been some lines crossed and some bad things have been done, but i am sure that those are the exceptions and not the rule. as far as being an american citizen... it doesnt matter to me one bit if your fighting for the enemy. if we were not at war, then the fbi could take care of it and give them a trial.

[Durandal]

there is a well defined area of engagement - afghanistan. we are fighting taliban and a.q. and the hig and some others. the people we pick up in other locals are still a.q. or hig or whatever. it would be like picking up a nazi in argentina in 1944.

Ummm Afghanistan (you capitalize the A) is bit one of MANY places, where to most of us, all the people look the same. Many of the people we "pick up" have been arrested by a third world police or military that has little training in recognizing a terrorist. Its not just this either. We have Americans in foreign lands being tortured because someone THOUGHT they MIGHT be a bad guy.

You analogy IF the person they pick up is an actual bad guy is correct, that is not what I am discussing.


as far as being an american citizen... it doesnt matter to me one bit if your fighting for the enemy. if we were not at war, then the fbi could take care of it and give them a trial.

What needs to happen is that YOU need to get picked up, arrested, deported to some hell hole, bones in your hand broken, a little beating, food and sleep deprivation, and maybe after losing all hope of getting released, they do release you...three years later...disgraced and broken, your family thinking you are dead.

Now, I am sure you would be the patriot and say "well, they THOUGHT I was the enemy, so its ok."

Wacked man, completely wacked. We have this document, its called the COnstitution of the United States. Read it sometime...especially the first 10 Amendments...and maybe, just maybe you might not be so cavalier in signing away ANOTHER person's civil rights...natural rights...god given rights.

[Baboonass]

The gay is strong with this thread.

[nimer bortuqaal]

durandal,

first off people arent getting picked up just because their last name derives form the middle east. there is a lot more going on to get someone sent to g bay or else where. intel comes from all kinds of sources and believe me, it is hard to get someone sent away for further evaluation. this isnt the movies... you dont just get picked up and then tortured. prisoners are vetted to a great extent regardless of who picked them up.

so you have proof of all these americans who are in foreign lands being just tortured with no proof, do you?

you obviously missed the point about an american citizen who would be working for the enemy. in a time of war it is treason and that individual could be just shot. if they were to pick up a citizen, war or not, they are going to have some decent evidence behind them before they act. if they got the wrong person, after a few days of questioning (and i didnt say torture) they'll be released.

by the way. i support the constitution and i uphold the laws of this country. i'm in no way cavalier with the rights or the life of any human. maybe i haven't spelled out what i mean correctly - who knows. all i have meant from the beginning is that our society is a bit soft on a lot of things and that some things that people consider torture to me, as an individual, is not torture. playing music loud or never turning off the lights is annoying. not torture. this is where the geneva convention is vague and why there is so much debate on this issue. i may just take a firmer line than you. i dont condone torture either.

[Durandal]

playing music loud or never turning off the lights is annoying. not torture. this is where the geneva convention is vague and why there is so much debate on this issue. i may just take a firmer line than you. i dont condone torture either.

We are not talking about playing loud music or keeping the lights on. If you think this is the crux of this entire battle, then you are sadly mistaken.

On a side note:

And while I understand this is an online forum, some people might take you seriously if you learn to use the shift key. It looks like I am reading something written by a 15 year old.

[nimer bortuqaal]

Durandal, you're right. I should use the shift key more often. It's just laziness on my part.