Serbia is not Brave!?!

[cinoeye]

AP Interview: Kosovo's premier insists Serbia won't invade again, says Serbs lack courage
The Associated Press
Pristina. Kosovo's prime minister on Wednesday dismissed Serbia's fierce opposition to the province's drive for independence, insisting that decades of bloodshed in the Balkans are over and Belgrade will never dare to invade Kosovo again. In an interview with The Associated Press, Agim Ceku condemned a recent spate of bombings including an attack late Tuesday that injured four Serbs and he blamed Serbian nationalists for using "primitive propaganda to incite ethnic tensions as the United Nations nears a decision on possible statehood for Kosovo. "War is past. I'm sure there's no willingness to choose this way of realizing their wishes" Ceku said. Ceku spoke in the wake of tough remarks by his Serbian counterpart, Vojislav Kostunica, contending that Kosovo "has always been and forever will remain within Serbia" and a call by Serbian ultranationalist leader Tomislav Nikolic that the army should "stand ready” to go to war if the province gains its independence through U.N. talks.

An attack on Kosovo's minority Serbs triggered a sharp warning from the United Nations to Albanian leaders on Wednesday to watch their words, after one forecast a "revolt" if they are denied independence from Serbia.

The comments by Kosovo parliament speaker Kole Berisha outraged Serbia, which accused him of blackmail ahead of a decision on Kosovo's fate.

The remarks also struck a nerve with U.N. officials trying to guide Kosovo through talks on its future without the violent meltdown many observers have predicted.

"If our aim of independence is not realised then citizens' revolts are expected in Kosovo," he said. "We don't want revolts, but we cannot exclude them if our aim is not realised."

Berisha first made the statement on Monday in Slovenia, and repeated it on his return to Kosovo late on Tuesday.

Hours after Berisha spoke a hand grenade was lobbed through the window of an apartment in the western town of Klina, wounding four elderly Serbs. They were former refugees who had returned to Kosovo last year having fled after the 1998-99 war.

U.N. deputy head Steven Schook said violence was "not in the interests of Kosovo".

"I hope the leaders of the government, unity [negotiating] team and local leaders are very careful with the phrases they use and the messages they direct to public opinion and the people right now," the American diplomat told reporters after meeting Berisha on Wednesday.

The last major outbreak of violence was in March 2004, when mobs of Albanians overran Serb enclaves torching homes. Nineteen people died in two days of riots that caught 17,000 NATO peacekeepers off guard but effectively drew the attention of the world back to Kosovo's continuing limbo.

Serbian Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica, spearheading Serbia's bid to keep the province, condemned the attack.

"It is absolutely unacceptable that Serbs are killed and Albanian separatists publicly threaten violence and blackmail the international community," Kostunica said in a late-night statement.

Finland's Martti Ahtisaari, the chief U.N. mediator in direct Serb-Albanian talks, briefs foreign ministers of the major powers on Wednesday in New York as he works towards a year-end deadline to propose a solution.

Serbia last week enshrined Kosovo in the preamble of a new constitution as forever Serbian. Addressing a military parade at the weekend, Kostunica said the province was and would remain "the heart of Serbia".

But Western diplomats say Kosovo will likely win independence, more than seven years since NATO bombs drove out Serb forces accused of atrocities and ethnic cleansing in a two-year war with Albanian guerrillas.

The United Nations fears a rise in violence as a decision nears, and even a bid by the mainly Serb north to split Kosovo in two.
Published: September 20, 2006
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/09/20/...sovo_Unrest.php (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/09/20/...sovo_Unrest.php)



UN condemns Kosovo 'revolt' talk

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41922000/jpg/_41922362_woman-afp-body.jpg Most of Kosovo's majority ethnic Albanians want independence

A top UN diplomat has warned Kosovo's ethnic Albanians to watch their words after one leader predicted a "revolt" if Kosovo was denied independence.
Deputy head of the UN mission in Kosovo Steven Schook referred to comments made by the province's parliament speaker.
Mr Schook also condemned a grenade attack on Serbs in Kosovo, that came just hours after the speaker's remarks.
Serbia's province has been run by the UN since Nato forced Serb troops out of the province in 1999.
Ethnic Albanians are pressing for Kosovo's independence, while Belgrade says it should remain part of Serbia.
The UN-mediated talks between the Serbian and ethnic Albanian teams in Vienna have been going on for months. So far, no breakthrough has been achieved.
Klina attack
Kosovo's leaders should be "very careful with the phrases they use and the messages they direct to public opinion and the people right now", Mr Schook said after meeting the province's parliamentary speaker Kole Berisha on Wednesday.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41729000/gif/_41729958_serbia_map203.gif

The US diplomat also warned that violence was "not in the interests of Kosovo".
Mr Berisha said earlier this week that "if our aim of independence is not realised then citizen's revolts are expected".
"We don't want revolts, but we cannot exclude them if our aim is not realised," he said.
Hours after Mr Berisha spoke four Serbs were wounded in the grenade attack on their home in Kosovo's western town of Klina.
The victims were former refugees who only returned home last year.
The attack and Mr Berisha's remarks have drawn strong criticism in Serbia.
Western pressure
UN chief negotiator Martti Ahtisaari is under pressure from the Western powers to produce a deal by the end of the year, the BBC's South-east Europe analyst Gabriel Partos says.
The West believes that uncertainty over Kosovo's future could lead to its destabilisation, he says.
Earlier this year, the six-nation Contact Group made it clear that a deal should be in line with the wishes of Kosovo's people.
Since the 90% ethnic-Albanian majority are insisting on independence, that has been seen as a possible pointer to the kind of settlement that may emerge from the diplomatic process, our analyst says. He says the Western powers in the Contact Group have hinted at independence, albeit under close international supervision, as a likely solution. Russia, on the other hand, has said it will not go along with a deal that is imposed on Serbia.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5364976.stm

[dimasorokine]

They can acuse Serbs of many things, but lack of Courage is insane! I can see a war starting just because of tha comment.

-Dima

[PaulClift]

I can see a forum war breaking out :)

[digrar]

It won't get that far. This thread is being monitered, lockings, infractions and bannings will be handed out if required.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

i would say serbia is only scared on the death from above power of nato

[cinoeye]

This is a very cheap provocation from the albanian side.
I mean, on what leavel should some "so called" PM should be, to say someting like that?

[fantomas]

stupid comment. KLA was getting its ass kicked until Senor Clinton used the USAF to give Kosovo to Albanians. Yeah. lack of courage, thats it. what an idiot.

[cinoeye]

Well recently he said: "..world should be aware of the uprising and riots od Kosovo Albanians if Kosovo do not get an independence....".
"PM" hopes to provoce someone in Serbia to sat like:" what, we are not brave, let's kick some A......"
He knows that we Serbs already have bad reputation im media.
So it will work for them, and against us in media war.

[Johnnyboy]

i would say serbia is only scared on the death from above power of nato

Can you recall a time when serbia was...?


@topic
Can he be so dumb to think someone, besides himself, would step on this sort of cheap provocation? What kind of, so called, "pm" is this? He is no pm, he is regular hillbilly/farmer with no clue of how the world works.

[Johnnyboy]

Can a Country be brave? the people,the leaders yes but the nation? or am I being neive

I see, you dont know the serbs p-);) Remember 1999...no problem to go into war with the whole freakin world when they know they are doing the right thing.

[daily666]

I see, you dont know the serbs p-);) Remember 1999...no problem to go into war with the whole freakin world when they know they are doing the right thing.

It wasn't the whole nation but it's govt. I don't think the nation really wanted to go to the war with NATO (not the whole world). Also when looking how Milosevic ended up, one can ask was it bravery or stupidity.

@topic, I also find acting of the Albanian majority provocative, after all, Kosovo is a part of Serbia.

[CyberSpec]

I expect attacks on the remaining Serbian enclaves in Kosovo which are very vulnerable (mostly old people) and a token response by KFOR.

Only northern Mitrovica and surrounding areas can be defended by the local population....they could probably take over the southern part of town as well, if given the opportunity.

A re-run of 1998/99 is highly unlikely, simply because Serbia doesn't want and is in no position to fight a large scale war.....but there's always a chance that events could spiral out of control.

[Johnnyboy]

It wasn't the whole nation but it's govt. I don't think the nation really wanted to go to the war with NATO (not the whole world). Also when looking how Milosevic ended up, one can ask was it bravery or stupidity.

@topic, I also find acting of the Albanian majority provocative, after all, Kosovo is a part of Serbia.

Ok, imagine just e.g. the Hispanics in South and West USA (I heard there are pretty much of em there) would start large terrorism attacks on US government Buildings and European and African Americans to seperate the areas where they are a majority from the US and join Mexico, the USA starts fighting the Terrorists and suddenly a coalition of Russia, China, Venezuela, Iran, France, Germany..... starts Bombing the US (no matter of how strong the US is...this is just about the principle). The US Citizens start standing on Bridges so that the coalition can't bomb them, demonstrating all night long for 3 Months on the times square and all biger city suqarez all around the US to support their troops defending their country because they know they are right when they protect theirs from other people trying to steal it with vioaltion, Murder, Terrorism...would you say no, not the whole nation wanted to defend themselves against the attacks but just the president, and the people really just wanted the war to end and give THEIR land to immigrants who they accepted to live in their great country and gave them a chance to enjoy a better life?:|

[Johnnyboy]

I expect attacks on the remaining Serbian enclaves in Kosovo which are very vulnerable (mostly old people) and a token response by KFOR.

Only northern Mitrovica and surrounding areas can be defended by the local population....they could probably take over the southern part of town as well, if given the opportunity.

A re-run of 1998/99 is highly unlikely, simply because Serbia doesn't want and is in no position to fight a large scale war.....but there's always a chance that events could spiral out of control.

As long as we have France,Greece and Russia supporting us I know everything will be allright p-)

[artistoli]

I have to say, looking back at recent and more distant history, the Serbs can only be judged to be extremely brave. Regardless of wether or not you agree with Serb polices, what other tiny economically challenged nation that had just been through almost a decade of bloody war would take on the most powerfull military alliance in the world and actually put up a sustained fight?

[Grumpy Bastard]

It does depend on what their assessment of the Politcal will to act is, percived risks & potential gains. As you said, given recent history especially...

[Asheren]

Ok, imagine just e.g. the Hispanics in South and West USA (I heard there are pretty much of em there) would start large terrorism attacks on US government Buildings and European and African Americans to seperate the areas where they are a majority from the US and join Mexico, the USA starts fighting the Terrorists and suddenly a coalition of Russia, China, Venezuela, Iran, France, Germany..... starts Bombing the US (no matter of how strong the US is...this is just about the principle). The US Citizens start standing on Bridges so that the coalition can't bomb them, demonstrating all night long for 3 Months on the times square and all biger city suqarez all around the US to support their troops defending their country because they know they are right when they protect theirs from other people trying to steal it with vioaltion, Murder, Terrorism...would you say no, not the whole nation wanted to defend themselves against the attacks but just the president, and the people really just wanted the war to end and give THEIR land to immigrants who they accepted to live in their great country and gave them a chance to enjoy a better life?:|

You know diffrence would be that those peoples on that bridge most propably would became "colateral damage" quite fast. With NATO they had 90% assurance that no one would bomb them. I would think twice before i would call such behavior brave.

[SrB-23Q]

I dont think there will be another full scale war....but if worst comes i think Serbia will fight

[ren0312]

I think you Serbs should just concentrate on rebuilding your country's ecnonomy and armed forces, like devoting a minimum of 2 per cent of your GDP to defence spending in order to get into NATO, and evacuating your Serbs who are still living in Kosovo and bring them over to Serbia, and just forget about Kosovo, since a war over Kosovo is unwinnable, and will only cause the destruction of Serbia and its people by NATO and the EU, it may not be the right approach in terms of principle, but then it is the most pragmatic approach, and one that will yield the most returns, not to mention possible EU and NATO membership.

[Asheren]

Making solid soviet style border bewen Kosovo and rest of Serbia would also be a quite nice idea soo you won't have trubles in other parts with some folks from there. I personaly think that supporting creation of such small countries like Kosovo is useless cos it might not be able to sustain its economy.

[eugenlitwin]

OO no man, Let say they a bit silly, why Serbs do not use Albanians “Mujahedin cart” in information war against enemy with full force?

Tehran transferred numerous groups of Arab and Albanian mujahedinfrom Bosnia. After a brief stay in these Albanian special training camps, special teams made of either veteran mujahedinor recently trained Albanians are sent out of the country. A large number cross into Kosovo either directly or via Macedonia. The high-quality assets are sent into Western Europe mixed in with the large groups of desperate refugees that cross the Straits of Otranto every night.
http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/bodanskyarticle.htm
This sort of information could work pretty well today!!!

[Johnnyboy]

You know diffrence would be that those peoples on that bridge most propably would became "colateral damage" quite fast. With NATO they had 90% assurance that no one would bomb them. I would think twice before i would call such behavior brave.


Check what the point was and what i was replying to before starting sissy moralic indoctrinations...

[Ericsson]

they should Albania is an obscene territory...

[AK-Lover]

Guys, I just finish my military services in the Serbian city of Nis and I must say the Serbian soldiers morale is still high. We have good equipment and our training level has gone up. We also participated in a live fire excersise! A rare thing for Serbian soldier in past 15 years.

[cinoeye]

Guys, I just finish my military services in the Serbian city of Nis and I must say the Serbian soldiers morale is still high. We have good equipment and our training level has gone up. We also participated in a live fire excersise! A rare thing for Serbian soldier in past 15 years.
Yea, how can you participate in live fire excersise, when you are fireing in the war;)

[AK-Lover]

Yea, how can you participate in live fire excersise, when you are fireing in the war;)
Znam sta mislis! But i was thinking in general training! :)

[cinoeye]

It was always like that.
Live ammo during the basic training (100, 200, 300, 400, 500...meters), day and night, pluse hand grande and gun tromblone(forgot name in english)

[cetnik]

Serbia is not brave HA ! HA!.Let NATO leave and we will show ceku just how brave we are.KLA a was getting its a#$%^$# kicked on the ground.While nazi nato had the skies.When ever we engaged them they would just crumle.It iseasy to kill innocents and ambush police.But from personal exp i know the SERBIAN army was far more superior even if the KLA was getting help from CIA.Don't worry we will have KOSOVOOO back again someday.God bless Serbian fighting men and women and God bless SERBIA.CCCC Ceku needs a kiss from Lady revolver right on the forehead:fork: . Albanians could never fight a one on one war with Serbia they always need help from ouside.We will show them when the time comes.I wish for peace there but Serbs have a long jistory of courage and patriotism.Bog te gleda>

[cinoeye]

Haha.
It's just hard for me to belive you are realy Serbian.
Somehow I have a sence this is some kind of a game.

[Knez Eru]

The best way to discredit somebody in the eyes of the disinformed is to play to the most common stereotype. And ussually (read:always) it is not a very positive one.

[cetnik]

How do I know your a Serb.(I don't) Your avatar has the Serb colors but so what.And be more specific
what in my comment made you think it was a game.
Jebi ga sta pritchas. You want me to prove it? :cantbeli:

[artistoli]

I personaly think that supporting creation of such small countries like Kosovo is useless cos it might not be able to sustain its economy.

I agree, these days we should be trying to create larger, more unified nations, not dividing into medievall city state-like tiny countries.

[AK-Lover]

Just looking at the Albanian "negotiating team" is proving that these talks are a joke. They're made up of a bunch of Albanian mafia and peasant militia leaders.

[cinoeye]

How do I know your a Serb.(I don't) Your avatar has the Serb colors but so what.And be more specific
what in my comment made you think it was a game.
Jebi ga sta pritchas. You want me to prove it? :cantbeli:
Well, it almost looks like you are someone who is not a Serb, but pretenting to be one and saying things that make us look bad.
Knez Eru explaned that "kratko i jebitacno" ;) .

Just slow down, be civil, use the fact, do not provoce and you'll survive here.
You are not long here, so you did not see some realy interesting things like banning Serbian members and anyone who participate in Balkan related threads. But all of that was far away from being done because we are the Serbs, but beacuse the way how people talked.

So try not to fall from the sky and fire all your frustration here.
I hope you understand.

[AK-Lover]

Cinoeye is right cetnik, you can't behave the same way here as you would on another forum. Many of us share you're frustrations but we won't get anywhere by freaking out, we have to take things slowly, and change the opinions using subtle means.

[Lokos]

Jebi ga sta pritchas

Are you from the diaspora? Most Serbs would understand 'pricas' (talk) without the t and the h.


Many of us share you're frustrations but we won't get anywhere by freaking out, we have to take things slowly, and change the opinions using subtle means.

Heh, that makes a perfectly legitimate position sound kind of insidious. 'Subtle means'? It's only the truth and balance we're pushing, and there's rarely anything subtle in that.

Lokos

[AK-Lover]

Are you from the diaspora? Most Serbs would understand 'pricas' (talk) without the t and the h.



Heh, that makes a perfectly legitemate position sound kind of insidious. 'Subtle means'? It's only the truth and balance we're pushing, and there's rarely anything subtle in that.

Lokos
Lokos are you Serb? Just wondering, because I see you have been wondering about Balkan thread's and have great knowledge of Balkan history. Anyway to anwser you're post i meant subtle like as in playing different techniques to change people's minds about what really went on.

[cinoeye]

AK-Lover, "subtle means", that's our brother Lokos ;)

[AK-Lover]

AK-Lover, "subtle means", that's our brother Lokos ;)
Ahah ok brate, I didn't know. I was gone for a long while from this forum while I got settled into Beograd and finished my military service.

[Lokos]

Lokos are you Serb?

Pa naravno, bre. :D

(Of course, [untranslateable])

Lokos

[AK-Lover]

Pa naravno, bre. :D

(Of course, [untranslateable])

Lokos]
Nisam bio siguran!

[spale]

I also think that Serbia should start making a deal with "the World" in return of letting Kosovo go.

What interest does Serbia have in Kosovo? Apart from protecting Serbian population and Orthodox Church’s property.
In my opinion nothing.

Serbia can only benefit from getting rid of extremely poor province.
Show the rest of the world that Serbian politicians are capable solving territorial problem without involving the Army.
Probably get something in return (as long as that something doesn’t end up in Swiss bank accounts of current politicians wives, sons, cousins).
And concentrate on building (some would say re-building) its economy.
Don’t just sell all profitable companies for next to nothing but try to create stabile country in which foreign investors will see their money protected.

At the moment Serbia is far far from that.
Anyone even thinking of investing in the region is looking elsewhere (Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia...) and longer it drags less these “profitable” companies are going to be worth.
And thats bad for ordinary folk.
I’m pretty sure that nearly all working Serbian citizens would vote for giving Kosovo up for better standard of living.

Unfortunately, Kosovo and war crimes suspects are closely connected to economical prosperity of Serbia at the moment.
I know it shouldn’t be like that, but thats the way it is.
And its not about to change. Right or wrong.

Serbia has great potential, especially in agriculture sector and with some investment/modernisation medium and heavy industry should pick up really quick.

Letting Kosovo go, making a small but politicly and ecomicly stabile country would be of big benefit to all. Both in and out of Serbia.
But as I mentioned, IMHO longer it takes road to successes is going to be harder and harder and harder....

[SrB-23Q]

I also think that Serbia should start making a deal with "the World" in return of letting Kosovo go.

What interest does Serbia have in Kosovo? Apart from protecting Serbian population and Orthodox Church’s property.
In my opinion nothing.

Serbia can only benefit from getting rid of extremely poor province.
Show the rest of the world that Serbian politicians are capable solving territorial problem without involving the Army.
Probably get something in return (as long as that something doesn’t end up in Swiss bank accounts of current politicians wives, sons, cousins).
And concentrate on building (some would say re-building) its economy.
Don’t just sell all profitable companies for next to nothing but try to create stabile country in which foreign investors will see their money protected.

At the moment Serbia is far far from that.
Anyone even thinking of investing in the region is looking elsewhere (Bulgaria, Romania, Macedonia...) and longer it drags less these “profitable” companies are going to be worth.
And thats bad for ordinary folk.
I’m pretty sure that nearly all working Serbian citizens would vote for giving Kosovo up for better standard of living.

Unfortunately, Kosovo and war crimes suspects are closely connected to economical prosperity of Serbia at the moment.
I know it shouldn’t be like that, but thats the way it is.
And its not about to change. Right or wrong.

Serbia has great potential, especially in agriculture sector and with some investment/modernisation medium and heavy industry should pick up really quick.

Letting Kosovo go, making a small but politicly and ecomicly stabile country would be of big benefit to all. Both in and out of Serbia.
But as I mentioned, IMHO longer it takes road to successes is going to be harder and harder and harder....
obviously u have minimal knowledge about Serbian involvment with Kosovo

[spale]

obviously u have minimal knowledge about Serbian involvment with Kosovo

Could you please enlighten me.
What exactly are you talking about?

[SrB-23Q]

Could you please enlighten me.
What exactly are you talking about?
Just look up Serbian historical attachement 2 Kosovo and look at Albanian. That is all.

[Audio]

Letting Kosovo go, making a small but politicly and ecomicly stabile country would be of big benefit to all. Both in and out of Serbia.
But as I mentioned, IMHO longer it takes road to successes is going to be harder and harder and harder....

And what would you do with Kosovo? Give it to the Albanians? C'mon we've got enough of vegetable mafia already.

As far as Serbia goes economically.....it is an investment oppurtunity and Slovenian companies are already buying stuff (companies)...because the bottom line as is perceived here is that Serbia can only go up and has great potential.

[spale]

Just look up Serbian historical attachement 2 Kosovo and look at Albanian. That is all.

not valid argument.
From your perspective, Serbia should than say to Hungary:
“oh, you know when Vojvodina was given to us...well, you have more historic attachments to it, so here it is back”.

I’m talking about modern Serbia.
Serbia in 2006.
Factual situation.
Realistic situation, more importantly.

[spale]

And what would you do with Kosovo? Give it to the Albanians? C'mon we've got enough of vegetable mafia already.

As far as Serbia goes economically.....it is an investment oppurtunity and Slovenian companies are already buying stuff (companies)...because the bottom line as is perceived here is that Serbia can only go up and has great potential.

Did I not made my opinion clear??
Yes, I would send Kosovo away.
My opinion is that its not worth the hassle and it bears enough “credit” for Serbia to look for improvements in other areas.

Oh and BTW, whats vegetable mafia?
I’m not street enough, sorry.

And without sounding disrespectful, investment from Slovenia is not what I had in mind.

Serbia needs capital from “strategic partners”.
Countries that will support it because they have interest in it.
France, Germany, UK and USA.

If it comes, God forbids, to another Balkan crisis, Slovenia will turn its back on Serbia (and its investment in it) in New York minute.

[therobot]

spale well this is just not and argunemt (Vojvodina).....austro-hungary was empire and it was crushed during ww1...... in the way you think a lot of countries and land should be given back to austria and hungary ;) Just to remind you ... I will not talk about Kosovo because I really don't give a damn if it is serbian or albanian.....

[therobot]

Did I not made my opinion clear??
Yes, I would send Kosovo away.
My opinion is that its not worth the hassle and it bears enough “credit” for Serbia to look for improvements in other areas.

Oh and BTW, whats vegetable mafia?
I’m not street enough, sorry.

And without sounding disrespectful, investment from Slovenia is not what I had in mind.

Serbia needs capital from “strategic partners”.
Countries that will support it because they have interest in it.
France, Germany, UK and USA.

If it comes, God forbids, to another Balkan crisis, Slovenia will turn its back on Serbia (and its investment in it) in New York minute.

Slovenia invested quite a lot of money into Serbia (among top 5) ... so why is money from Slovenia less worthy than from countries you said ? ... Money is money and Slovenia can sure handle it ;)

[spale]

Slovenia invested quite a lot of money into Serbia (among top 5) ... so why is money from Slovenia less worthy than from countries you said ? ... Money is money and Slovenia can sure handle it ;)

Money is money. Fact.

But I was talking about strategic investemnt.
Sorry mate, but answer to your question is in my post above.

UK, USA, Germany ... countries that make world policies are not giving a **** if Slovenia, Slovakia or Russia for that matter has investment in it.

So, again, I think Serbia should look for investors from those countries.

[spale]

spale well this is just not and argunemt (Vojvodina).....austro-hungary was empire and it was crushed during ww1...... in the way you think a lot of countries and land should be given back to austria and hungary ;) Just to remind you ... I will not talk about Kosovo because I really don't give a damn if it is serbian or albanian.....

I was trying to make a point.
Because I can't stand comments like the one I replied to without any elaboration or at least trying to explain what he/she means by that.

You are absolutely right, two different lands, two different cases.

[Audio]

If it comes, God forbids, to another Balkan crisis, Slovenia will turn its back on Serbia (and its investment in it) in New York minute.

Please elaborate on that statement?
And while you're at it explain why do you think "strategic partners" wouldn't do the same?


Thank you.


Serbia needs capital from “strategic partners”.
Countries that will support it because they have interest in it.


Slovenian money isn't a good enough interest for Slovenians you think?
And by the time your "strategic partners" get a move on, we'll own half the place already.

[cinoeye]

Foreign investemnts in Serbia, since the begining of this year are 2 billion Euros, and industry growth is 7%.

Why would we give up our land?
It is not true that most people would give up Kosovo.
Acctualy it is quite opposite.
People and political parties are unite that Kosovo is and should stay part of Serbia.
Ther are probably some people who will give up Kosovo and Vojvodina and Raska Oblast (So called Sandzak).
I see, you are from UK.
Why don't you give up N.Ireland, when they realy have reason and right to leave, and you sugest us to give up our land?
Are you out of your mind?
If Pakistani people become majority in London and ask indepndence, should you give up?
Come on...

[AK-Lover]

Good post Cinoeye. If Kosovo was any other region of Serbia we could contemplate giving it up, but Kosovo is to us as Palestine is to the Jews.

[Yaro]

To all serbs :)

http://www.kosovo.szm.sk/

[AK-Lover]

To all serbs :)

http://www.kosovo.szm.sk/

Thanks for the link brother but that site is still in preperations!

[CyberSpec]

I was trying to make a point.
Because I can't stand comments like the one I replied to without any elaboration or at least trying to explain what he/she means by that.

You are absolutely right, two different lands, two different cases.

Spale,

you make some valid points and there are people in Serbia (some are influential) that have similar views to yours, BUT the current actions (constitutional amandement / referendum) are not hostile in any way......it's completely up to the other side if it turns violent.

[AK-Lover]

Spale,

you make some valid points and there are people in Serbia (some are influential) that have similar views to yours, BUT the current actions (constitutional amandement / referendum) are not hostile in any way......it's completely up to the other side if it turns violent.

And we can see what their intentions are, they have already threatened violence, saying it should be "expected" if their wishes aren't met.

[spale]

OK.
I tried to explain my point of view.
Could you guy please in short and clear few sentences explain how would independent Kosovo affect you?
And don’t give me that Serbia is born on Kosovo story.
Trust me, I know it all too well.

It obviously make a difference where I am from (I was hoping it wouldn’t’ but it looks like it does) so let me tell you;
I am born, bred, full 100% Serb from Belgrade (sa Vracara) for those who still think that Mladenovac is Belgrade.
It f..cking gets me through the roof comments like Srb-23Q:


obviously u have minimal knowledge about Serbian involvment with Kosovo

that comes from the guy who grew up in Australia.
Please correct me if I’m wrong.
And I’m guessing you are not older than 22. If that.

How would you know what an average Serbian thinks mate?
You talk to Serbs in your local Ortodox Church?
Talk to people that haven’t been in Serbia for longer than summer holiday.
Those are turists.
Have no more credibility than Columbian tourist that visited Belgrade few times.

Understand where I’m coming from.

I heard that story time and time again.
From guys (Serbs) sitting thousands of miles from Serbia.
They are all brave and “would get over there tomorrow if something happens”. yeah right.
None of them (Slava onima koji jesu i nisu se vratili svojima) did that.
Only small very very mall % actually did something about it.
So don’t talk to me about that.

Talk to guys like Lokos (sorry I am using your name and I am not, in any way, trying to associate you with my points of view).
To my undersanding, reading various threads, he's the guy that spent some time in "sand box" and knows how its like.
Ask him if he would like to go back.
How fight for Serbianity actually looks like.
And after all that (so many dead and scared in every possible way) we actually lost.

Can't we understand its not up to us!

That is the reason why I said, realistic, current review of our situation is needed.
To weigh up whats more important: land (that would by the way cause Serbia a lot of problems even if returned to Serbia fully) or moving forward and welfare of its citizens.

I would love to see Kosovo back within Serbia and to see Kosovo prosper and truly becomes integral part of modern Serbia but unfortunately that will never happen.

As I said before in current situation, I personally believe giving Kosovo up wouldn’t affect an average Serb at all, other than short term sadness (short term because we are famous for not remembering a lot of things).
We could just benefit from it.

Make Serbian cause stronger so other parts of our country don’t get away.
Plan for future.
Cuz I see no future in Kosovo.

[spale]

Foreign investemnts in Serbia, since the begining of this year are 2 billion Euros, and industry growth is 7%.

Why would we give up our land?
It is not true that most people would give up Kosovo.
Acctualy it is quite opposite.
People and political parties are unite that Kosovo is and should stay part of Serbia.
Ther are probably some people who will give up Kosovo and Vojvodina and Raska Oblast (So called Sandzak).
I see, you are from UK.
Why don't you give up N.Ireland, when they realy have reason and right to leave, and you sugest us to give up our land?
Are you out of your mind?
If Pakistani people become majority in London and ask indepndence, should you give up?
Come on...

Yes mate I LIVE in the UK but I'm from Belgrade.
And I keep telling people here to give N.Ireland back and give Scotland independence. :)

You did say MOST PEOPLE GIVE KOSOVO UP, but I said to give it up in return for better living. Thats a little bit different giving something up just like that and "trading" it for something.

Oh, and M (so I don't spell your name to everyone, but you know..) I am surprised you don't know who and where I am from since you were PM-ing me on Serbian quite a few times mate. :hug:

[BLUE]

Spale your proposal sounds interesting. I suggest that Great Britain, being a supporter of Kosovo independance should compensate Serbia with 15% of its territory.

Maybe you should lobby your government to offer Serbia any part of the British island. It doesnt even have to be the most sacred and, spiritually and historically important part of Britain.

[spale]

Spale your proposal sounds interesting. I suggest that Great Britain, being a supporter of Kosovo independance should compensate Serbia with 15% of its territory.

Maybe you should lobby your government to offer Serbia any part of the British island. It doesnt even have to be the most sacred and, spiritually and historically important part of Britain.

BLUE, unfortunately (for Serbia) UK is one of few countries that make world policies (some would argue, just following USA, and I'm one of them).
I am still struggling to understand why UK turned so hostile towards Serbia in our modern history (last 20 years).

All I’m saying is that Serbia can’t win this race.
Why even participate when we can sell our ticket for decent money.

[cinoeye]

My, mom's side is from Serbian Province of Kosovo.
My grandfather, as well as as his dad and gran'pa gave blood, lives, body parts to stay on that land.
I spend my childhood there, I was in the army there, during the 1999 located around the Slatina, Belacevac, Magura, Lipovica, Lipljan, Kosovo Polje area. I guess you know what was in the center of that area(first place I listed is a name hint).
Now, my family semetery and tumb stones are destroyed, property burned, family scaterd in "narrower" Serbia.......
I mean, some Serbs where never on Kosovo, and not personaly attached to it.
I have personal responsability, as well as a member of Serbian nation, to fight and if I need give life to defend Kosovo.

By the way, are you Spale from 63rd parashoot brigade forum?

[SrB-23Q]

not valid argument.
From your perspective, Serbia should than say to Hungary:
“oh, you know when Vojvodina was given to us...well, you have more historic attachments to it, so here it is back”.

I’m talking about modern Serbia.
Serbia in 2006.
Factual situation.
Realistic situation, more importantly.
Vojvodina doasnt have da same value to Hungary as Kosovo dose to Serbia, the Serbian State was basically formed in Kosovo...Vojvodina was a result of Hungary attacking Serbia, for a lame ass reason..Serbia didnt attack Albania, we were just defending our land from Albaninas. Dose this make it a bit more clear?

[SrB-23Q]

OK.
I tried to explain my point of view.
Could you guy please in short and clear few sentences explain how would independent Kosovo affect you?
And don’t give me that Serbia is born on Kosovo story.
Trust me, I know it all too well.

It obviously make a difference where I am from (I was hoping it wouldn’t’ but it looks like it does) so let me tell you;
I am born, bred, full 100% Serb from Belgrade (sa Vracara) for those who still think that Mladenovac is Belgrade.
It f..cking gets me through the roof comments like Srb-23Q:



that comes from the guy who grew up in Australia.
Please correct me if I’m wrong.
And I’m guessing you are not older than 22. If that.

How would you know what an average Serbian thinks mate?
You talk to Serbs in your local Ortodox Church?
Talk to people that haven’t been in Serbia for longer than summer holiday.
Those are turists.
Have no more credibility than Columbian tourist that visited Belgrade few times.

Understand where I’m coming from.

I heard that story time and time again.
From guys (Serbs) sitting thousands of miles from Serbia.
They are all brave and “would get over there tomorrow if something happens”. yeah right.
None of them (Slava onima koji jesu i nisu se vratili svojima) did that.
Only small very very mall % actually did something about it.
So don’t talk to me about that.

Talk to guys like Lokos (sorry I am using your name and I am not, in any way, trying to associate you with my points of view).
To my undersanding, reading various threads, he's the guy that spent some time in "sand box" and knows how its like.
Ask him if he would like to go back.
How fight for Serbianity actually looks like.
And after all that (so many dead and scared in every possible way) we actually lost.

Can't we understand its not up to us!

That is the reason why I said, realistic, current review of our situation is needed.
To weigh up whats more important: land (that would by the way cause Serbia a lot of problems even if returned to Serbia fully) or moving forward and welfare of its citizens.

I would love to see Kosovo back within Serbia and to see Kosovo prosper and truly becomes integral part of modern Serbia but unfortunately that will never happen.

As I said before in current situation, I personally believe giving Kosovo up wouldn’t affect an average Serb at all, other than short term sadness (short term because we are famous for not remembering a lot of things).
We could just benefit from it.

Make Serbian cause stronger so other parts of our country don’t get away.
Plan for future.
Cuz I see no future in Kosovo.
Actually i was born overseas i moved 2 Australia about 6 years ago after the NATO bombings....ohh and i am under 22 im 19 but i was old enough when the bombings happened 2 know wat was going on.

[SrB-23Q]

And so wat if im under 22 and y 22??? usually da maturity age is 18 but u just picked a number out of da blue like 22 wtf?

[BLUE]

I am still struggling to understand why UK turned so hostile towards Serbia in our modern history (last 20 years).





One of the biggest deceptions in Serbian national phyche is that Britain was ever a friend and ally of Serbia.

Britain has done many wrongs to Serbs, come to think of it i cannot recall anything good Britain did for Serbia, throughout history.

Going back form Serbian uprising under Turkish occupation, WWI, Berlin Congress, WWII (coup organized by British intelligence which threw Yugo into war against most powrfull army in the world, and cost over milion Serbs their lives), abandonmnet of Gen. Draza Mihailovic and sellout of Serbia to SSSR, to the policies regarding Serbian struggle in Croatia, Bosnia and at last Kosovo.

[spale]

One of the biggest deceptions in Serbian national phyche is that Britain was ever a friend and ally of Serbia.

Britain has done many wrongs to Serbs, come to think of it i cannot recall anything good Britain did for Serbia, throughout history.

Going back form Serbian uprising under Turkish occupation, WWI, Berlin Congress, WWII (coup organized by British intelligence which threw Yugo into war against most powrfull army in the world, and cost over milion Serbs their lives), abandonmnet of Gen. Draza Mihailovic and sellout of Serbia to SSSR, to the policies regarding Serbian struggle in Croatia, Bosnia and at last Kosovo.

ah, no no, I am fully aware that Britan was never a friend, it just never was an enemy as such, thats why.
And now it acts like we are.
Iraq had better treatment than Serbia.

[spale]

Actually i was born overseas i moved 2 Australia about 6 years ago after the NATO bombings....ohh and i am under 22 im 19 but i was old enough when the bombings happened 2 know wat was going on.


hmmm, whats this than mate??:

Born in Serbia but lived in Australia for most of my life.....soo ill say Australia and Serbia
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1883083#post1883083

as for your age, as I said it figures, a lot of young boys have your attitude here in the UK. Boys that (some of them) speak Serbian worst than a Greek student on Belgrade University.

I bet you don't truly know more than dozen people that are living in Serbia and did so for past 10 years.

[SrB-23Q]

well best times of my life in Austarial ofcorse by dat i mean my teenage years...arnt they the most memroble times of ones life?

[SrB-23Q]

Most of my frendz r Serbs here in OZ and 90% of em r born overseas, who moved to OZ after the Balkan wars and again after NATO bombardment in 1999...ohh and btw we all speak Serbian among ourselves

[spale]

well best times of my life in Austarial ofcorse by dat i mean my teenage years...arnt they the most memroble times of ones life?

oh, that explains it than :bash:
...and of course teenage years are the best ones, but yours are in Austraila, mine were in Serbia in 90's...

so, please try to keep your "knowledge" of Serbia and "hard life" in it for your Sunday Church chit-chat.
Posting your opinion, fine but don't undermind other people's because you think you know the best ;-)

[spale]

Most of my frendz r Serbs here in OZ and 90% of em r born overseas, who moved to OZ after the Balkan wars and again after NATO bombardment in 1999...ohh and btw we all speak Serbian among ourselves

fak, I just realised that you said your friends were born OVERSEAS?
Overseas for Austraila you mean??

Oh, man, thats enough cuz for one if I was to write that I would say "born back home and came over here" not the way you did mate.

What a big Serb calling Serbia "overseas"

Nothing wrong with your life mate, I'm sure plenty of boyz in Serbia would trade with you instantly, but DON'T call, or even think for that matter, that you are in any way shape or form an average Serb.

Spale out.

[GromGrad]

Does any one honestly see Kosovo gaining independence? What good will it do? Will it not cause more harm then good? I just really hope if kosovo gains independence and the **** hits the fan that Russia really steps its foot down and prevents Serbia from getting bombed again.

[spale]

Does any one honestly see Kosovo gaining independence? What good will it do? Will it not cause more harm then good? I just really hope if kosovo gains independence and the **** hits the fan that Russia really steps its foot down and prevents Serbia from getting bombed again.

Russia never did anything for Serbia (talking about last 20 years) nor it will.
I am sick and tired of hearing how Russia is a big friend of Serbia and the rest of that crap.
If they just did something, anything at all in 1998, Serbia would never got bombed.
But they just sat with thumbs up their asses and looked the other way.

And I saw no problem despite international protests when they sold S-300 system to Cyprus (forgive me if system designation is different).
I’m not saying that they shouldn’t have but at goes to show, if there is will there is a way.

Not saying that Russian people share their government’s "love” for Serbia.
Quite opposite, I think Russians believe, as much as Serbs do, that our two countries are friends.
But thats far from what has been seen.

Greeks and Greece done way more during NATO bombardment than Russia. That tiny little country (compared to Russia and other leading states).
France did as well, but not officially.

But Russia. NO NO NO

[PILMAN]

I feel bad that the media was so biased during the whole Serbia conflict. Yes some screwed up stuff happened to muslims in Kosovo however many of the muslims brought on the war themselves. I seen videos where the muslims are just sniping at serbian woman in the streets and how the bosnian muslims beheaded a serbian who surrendered. I really think the Serbians got screwed over, I think the situation can relate to Israel similar to how people claim Israel is the aggressor and how the "poor muslims are being treated so poorly".

[eugenlitwin]

But Russia. NO NO NO
good point
just one remark

RF Government did good PR company inside of country woot

[CyberSpec]

Russia never did anything for Serbia (talking about last 20 years) nor it will.
I am sick and tired of hearing how Russia is a big friend of Serbia and the rest of that crap.
If they just did something, anything at all in 1998, Serbia would never got bombed.
But they just sat with thumbs up their asses and looked the other way.

And I saw no problem despite international protests when they sold S-300 system to Cyprus (forgive me if system designation is different).
I’m not saying that they shouldn’t have but at goes to show, if there is will there is a way.

Not saying that Russian people share their government’s "love” for Serbia.
Quite opposite, I think Russians believe, as much as Serbs do, that our two countries are friends.
But thats far from what has been seen.

Greeks and Greece done way more during NATO bombardment than Russia. That tiny little country (compared to Russia and other leading states).
France did as well, but not officially.

But Russia. NO NO NO

You're not wrong there, but I think you fail to notice the big changes inside Russia as well as geo-politically since 1998/99. The Nato intervention was a wake up call for Russia as well

[Audio]

But Russia. NO NO NO

Heh, didn't they send some paratrooper dettachment racing down towards Priština airfield in the closing days of the war?

[GromGrad]

Spale while i do agree with you that Russia didn't do enough, to say that Russia didn't do any thing is complete utter BS and shows not only how out of touch you are with your former country but also your lack of knowledge of the situation.

I guess you don't remember the Russians who went into Kosovo despite being threatened by both American and the UN and by the KLA who said they would turn kosovo into Afganistan 2 for Russia. I guess you didn't see the videos of Russian soldiers being welcomed with open arms. The same ones who went in 200 strong at first in the face of how many KLA, UN, American troops? Russia may have not done any thing for you when u were sitting in your chair in comfy London but to the serbs in kosovo, what they did was important. Also maybe some of the guys here who know the people involved, can tell you about what Russians did there unofficially. I don't feel comfortable talking about that but im sure some one here can tell you about it.

We should have done alot more, but in those days we had our own big problems. It's still no excuse. But with out Russia, i think the US and Co would go alot further north then Pristina if you know what i mean. Im not playing Russia up, but a friend who does at least something and risks his neck a little is still better then no freind at all. But i guess serbs in the UK need no friends.

[CyberSpec]

Spale while i do agree with you that Russia didn't do enough, to say that Russia didn't do any thing is complete utter BS and shows not only how out of touch you are with your former country but also your lack of knowledge of the situation.

Grom, no offence but it's no secret that the current arrangement around Kosovo was done with Russia's consent. Chernomyrdin came to Belgrade and basicaly told them that they either accept the deal on offer or be prepared to have the country flattened.....and to expect no help.

But you can't expect anything better from people like him and Yeltsin when you consider the damage they done to their own country.

That has to be balanced with the fact that a lot of Russian volunteers came to fight in the Balkans on their own, with many loosing their lives. People like Spale tend to forget that....I wonder whether he would be prepared to go to Chechnya out of a feeling of panslavic brotherhood.

And to be honest, I don't see why Russia should help the current Serbian government....they certainly don't deserve it.

........................................................

A recent (about a week or so ago) pro-Serb rally in Moscow

http://img3067.imagevenue.com/loc412/th_42777_10_122_412lo.jpg (http://img3067.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42777_10_122_412lo.jpg) http://img3067.imagevenue.com/loc349/th_42776_9_122_349lo.jpg (http://img3067.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42776_9_122_349lo.jpg) http://img3067.imagevenue.com/loc470/th_42775_7_122_470lo.jpg (http://img3067.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42775_7_122_470lo.jpg) http://img3067.imagevenue.com/loc599/th_42774_6_122_599lo.jpg (http://img3067.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42774_6_122_599lo.jpg) http://img3067.imagevenue.com/loc577/th_42773_4_122_577lo.jpg (http://img3067.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42773_4_122_577lo.jpg) http://img3067.imagevenue.com/loc581/th_42773_3_122_581lo.jpg (http://img3067.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42773_3_122_581lo.jpg) http://img3067.imagevenue.com/loc553/th_42771_1_122_553lo.jpg (http://img3067.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42771_1_122_553lo.jpg)

[GromGrad]

Grom, no offence but it's no secret that the current arrangement around Kosovo was done with Russia's consent. Chernomyrdin came to Belgrade and basicaly told them that they either accept the deal on offer or be prepared to have the country flattened.....and to expect no help.

But you can't expect anything better from people like him and Yeltsin when you consider the damage they done to their own country.

That has to be balanced with the fact that a lot of Russian volunteers came to fight in the Balkans on their own, with many loosing their lives. People like Spale tend to forget that....I wonder whether he would be prepared to go to Chechnya out of a feeling of panslavic brotherhood.

And to be honest, I don't see why Russia should help the current Serbian government....they certainly don't deserve it.




Yeah i know the arrangement was agreed apon with Russian consent. Everyone knows and it is a shame really. It was the Kremlins attempt to not be 2 sided and to legitamize their foreign policy. They didn't want to support independence for parts of georgia and moldova and not support indepence for kosovo. They stil think that if the let the west have their way in kosovo, russia wil get it's way in georgia and etc. It is stupid tho and i don't understand it. Why do we have to support independence across the board? We should support who we want to support, we don't need to bow to the west any more. I mean it is our backyard.

While i do agree with your sentiments on the current Serbia gov, i think we owe it to the Serbian people to help. Despite everything, we are still brothers. Always have and alwasy will be. I don't mean this in any kind of nazi slav blood BS, im half jewish but i just mean our cultures and souls are very similar. That being said i also think it is very important to not apease Islamic fighters. I mean we aren't western europe. We don't need to **** our pants in compliance every time a muslim yells about mistreatment.

Im not one who easily talks about our volunteers who so bravely fought there but i will remind everyone to not forget them. I would like to think that if there was a power reversal between Serbia and Russia and we needed help in Chechnya, they would come. Maybe that's wishful thinking tho. You know how it is these days, can't count on any one else but our selves.

[CyberSpec]

There are similaraties between Kosovo and Georgia<->Ossetia/Abkhasia, but also differences.

Ossetia and Abkhasia separated from Georgia as the USSR was breaking up and the new Georgian state was being formed.

Kosovo was taken away from an established state by an outside force. The KLA on it's own or even with indirect support wouldn't be able to achieve independence.

On everything else I agree with you.

[SRPSKI METAK]

For anybody that is interested www.antiwar.com/malic (http://www.antiwar.com/malic)
Nebojsa Malic is a damn good columnist and I think he has some interesting views on Serbia and western imperialism.check it out (for any Serbs that care)

[spale]

Spale while i do agree with you that Russia didn't do enough, to say that Russia didn't do any thing is complete utter BS and shows not only how out of touch you are with your former country but also your lack of knowledge of the situation.

I guess you don't remember the Russians who went into Kosovo despite being threatened by both American and the UN and by the KLA who said they would turn kosovo into Afganistan 2 for Russia. I guess you didn't see the videos of Russian soldiers being welcomed with open arms. The same ones who went in 200 strong at first in the face of how many KLA, UN, American troops? Russia may have not done any thing for you when u were sitting in your chair in comfy London but to the serbs in kosovo, what they did was important. Also maybe some of the guys here who know the people involved, can tell you about what Russians did there unofficially. I don't feel comfortable talking about that but im sure some one here can tell you about it.

We should have done alot more, but in those days we had our own big problems. It's still no excuse. But with out Russia, i think the US and Co would go alot further north then Pristina if you know what i mean. Im not playing Russia up, but a friend who does at least something and risks his neck a little is still better then no freind at all. But i guess serbs in the UK need no friends.


GromGrad, I take it you are Russian, right?

Just quick question:
how do you know where I was sitting in '99.
The fact I’m in London means I been here all my life?
How do you know that I wasn’t one of the Serbs on Kosovo during the war?
Or maybe I was in Moscow before London.
Anyway, you don’t so please leave personal comments out of this.
You don’t know me and I don’t know you.
I have opinions on Russia not you.

Two, sending 200 soldiers to occupy Pristina Airport at the end of the war is BS mate.
If anything Serbia did Russia a favour so they can have some influence in Kosovo by getting there first and holding an airport.
Otherwise they would be pushed aside like always.

Oh, and what Russia did exactly to help Serbia??
Maybe you could change my mind.
I am quite happy to listen and be corrected if I was wrong.

If you got offended by my comments, fine, cuz you than associate yourself with your government’s decision not to intervene, not regular people as I did say that Russian people have different stance towards Serbia but that is your choice.

Friend, what friend? Come on man.
You know how friend supports another, puts veto in UN, sends Army, speak publicly about being against aggression, threaten with counter measures...
Not a single UN resolution was vetoed by Russia when world was spilling pile of **** on us. (not in 98-99 but through all wars)
At the same time US vetoed countless decrees against Israel from silly reports and letters or recommendation to serious resolutions.
They wont let world touch them although most is criticizing Israel.
Thats a friend.

And yes, I would rather have no friends at all than one that keeps talking about our friendship but does nothing when things actually matter.
As for Serbs in UK, I already told you, but just to confirm so you don’t get confused, I wasn’t in London at the time.

[spale]

That has to be balanced with the fact that a lot of Russian volunteers came to fight in the Balkans on their own, with many loosing their lives. People like Spale tend to forget that....I wonder whether he would be prepared to go to Chechnya out of a feeling of panslavic brotherhood.



[/URL] (http://img3067.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42777_10_122_412lo.jpg) (http://img3067.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42775_7_122_470lo.jpg) (http://img3067.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42773_4_122_577lo.jpg) [URL="http://img3067.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=42771_1_122_553lo.jpg"]

Very wrong, as you didn't read my post in whole.
Russian people/volunteers ... different to Russian government.
Did Russian government organize those volunteers?

Go back to my post and you’ll see what I said.

And no I wouldn’t go to Chechnya, but would you?

[spale]

You're not wrong there, but I think you fail to notice the big changes inside Russia as well as geo-politically since 1998/99. The Nato intervention was a wake up call for Russia as well

so you think if 99 happened all over again, that Russia would stop it?

[CyberSpec]

so you think if 99 happened all over again, that Russia would stop it?

They wouldn't even consider military intervention in the present circumstances.



And no I wouldn’t go to Chechnya, but would you?

I came back in 1991 and made my modest contribution (East Slavonia, Zadar)....and You?

[spale]

They wouldn't even consider military intervention in the present circumstances.

My point exactly.



I came back in 1991 and made my modest contribution (East Slavonia, Zadar)....and You?

I was there through 1991-1995 and was with the Police untill 2000.

But that wasn't the point.
You asked me if I would go to Chechnya.
Being there and fighting for your own country is one thing but going 1000 miles away is something else.

And you still haven't told me if you would go to Chechnya to defend Serbo-Russian brotherhood??

[CyberSpec]

They (NATO) wouldn't even consider military intervention in the present circumstances.

Just to clarify my earlier statement



And you still haven't told me if you would go to Chechnya to defend Serbo-Russian brotherhood??

Sorry for the delay, I just got back from work.

Considering the state of mind I was back then, I would've.

Now days, considering that I'm approaching 40 and haven't fired a shot in anger since 1992....I'm not sure they would want me. If we imagine a hypothetical situation where there was really a need, I would still seriously consider it.

BTW, I'm from a mixed background and only 1/2 Serbian....I didn't have to go back. Infact, a lot of people (friends and relations) thought I had lost my marbles.

Pozdrav

[Fazla]

And we can see what their intentions are, they have already threatened violence, saying it should be &quot;expected&quot; if their wishes aren't met.

yeah... I guess than you recognize threatening of war or of "possible extermination" another ethnic group if your wishes aren't met is just barbaric right ;)

[AK-Lover]

yeah... I guess than you recognize threatening of war or of "possible extermination" another ethnic group if your wishes aren't met is just barbaric right ;)
Were not talking about Bosnia here "Fazla" this is about Kosovo. And that threatening was nothing worse than the mass rallies of Islamic hysteria going on in Zenica and Tuzla in 1992. My grandma was teacher in Tuzla and she barely got out alive when her muslim neighbours took up arms in 1992.

[spale]

Just to clarify my earlier statement




Sorry for the delay, I just got back from work.

Considering the state of mind I was back then, I would've.

Now days, considering that I'm approaching 40 and haven't fired a shot in anger since 1992....I'm not sure they would want me. If we imagine a hypothetical situation where there was really a need, I would still seriously consider it.

BTW, I'm from a mixed background and only 1/2 Serbian....I didn't have to go back. Infact, a lot of people (friends and relations) thought I had lost my marbles.

Pozdrav

So the answer is NO. You wouldn't go now, right.

If you said you would (like you indicated that 10-15 years ago you might've) all I would say is:
hat down to you my friend. Svaka cast.

I admire people that put their lives on the line for, essentially, someone else.
As I said before, defending your home is one thing but going miles away just to help...wow, thats just not describable by words.

but again, all that has nothing to do with what Russian or Serbian government, for that matter, are and were doing.
We are now talking about normal, regular people.
I was talking about Russian government and how inert they were towards Serbia.

And all I am saying, all my opinions are formed quite recently.
If you asked me same questions years back, I would probably sound more like big nationalist Serb than anything else, but being away for a while and seeing certain things changed my view a lot.

When you stand back a bit, you realise (well, I did) that all I was told and learned in Serbia is a bit different to what reality is.

We are way to small to do anything significant, to change something.
Other people don't care much about Serbia as much as I thought they did.
Most don't even know where it is.
Same way an average Serb feels about Burma and their problems, rest of the world think of us.

And in that light, I was saying, screw f..king kosovo, let it go; it can only create more problems if it stays in Serbia than being separated.
Let them fight with heroin import.
Put highly paid police officers on borders so they are not ****e to cheap bribes from Albanian drug dealers.
If they are going towards western Europe, let them find other way, not through Serbia.
Trust me this is huge problem.
Just look at younger Serbian generation and what drugs they are using.
It was weed and stuff before, now heroin is the drug of choice.

Anyway, thats only one of many problems we could resolve by having Kosovo away.

Until Kosovo problem is resolved and Mladic and Karadzic are in Hague, Europe wont let us get anywhere near.
Serbs are not allowed to travel freely, trade is limited because of that... a lot of things depend on Kosovo.

And that was my point.
Fighting for it is a lost cause ( well in my opinion it was lost cause once Yugoslavia was formed, still don't understand what Serbian politicians were thinking but thats another story) and even if we get it back, again, I think we'll end up with more problems than we could handle.
Serbian people are tired of wars and political instability.
They need the country to go forward a bit and let them feel safe and strong living there.
At the moment, if you gave everyone right to go and live somewhere else, wherever they choose, I think 80% would leave.
And thats bad. Very bad.
Nothing that we (Serbia and its governments) done has improved our lives.
Time to change that.
Thats all.

[Fazla]

Were not talking about Bosnia here "Fazla" this is about Kosovo. And that threatening was nothing worse than the mass rallies of Islamic hysteria going on in Zenica and Tuzla in 1992. My grandma was teacher in Tuzla and she barely got out alive when her muslim neighbours took up arms in 1992.

rofl

really, ok

[127th Knights]

hahahaha....I love these "I'm a greater Serb than thou" arguments. Guys...if all hell breaks loose...none of us as individuals can change anything anyway. A huge group might...but then you're bringing up all kinds of issues. For instance; who would be arming and training them? U.S.? Serbia? 3rd party? Is the U.S. gonna get involved anyway? They're withdrawing everybody but the spooks in Bosnia by this December. By this summer they hope to have the bases complete in Bulgaria so that they can begin moving troops there and out of Kosovo. My point is...we shouldn't be fighting amongst ourselves and creating divisions between our people/s until at the very least...the spoils have been carved! ;-)

[SRPSKI METAK]

Mladic is keeping Serbia down.Than is not fair for the EU to make all of Serbia suffer for one man.(I pray they never catch Mladic)May God watch over him.As for Kosovo If it is stolen it will be by EU/NATO/US forcing Serbia. We will never say ok we will just give it to them.Also albos are majority in Kosovo minority in Serbia and Kosovo is still part of Serbia.So that "We are the majority here" talk is bs.CCCC

[CyberSpec]

So the answer is NO. You wouldn't go now, right.

If you said you would (like you indicated that 10-15 years ago you might've) all I would say is:
hat down to you my friend. Svaka cast.

I admire people that put their lives on the line for, essentially, someone else.
As I said before, defending your home is one thing but going miles away just to help...wow, thats just not describable by words.

but again, all that has nothing to do with what Russian or Serbian government, for that matter, are and were doing.
We are now talking about normal, regular people.
I was talking about Russian government and how inert they were towards Serbia.

And all I am saying, all my opinions are formed quite recently.
If you asked me same questions years back, I would probably sound more like big nationalist Serb than anything else, but being away for a while and seeing certain things changed my view a lot.

When you stand back a bit, you realise (well, I did) that all I was told and learned in Serbia is a bit different to what reality is.

We are way to small to do anything significant, to change something.
Other people don't care much about Serbia as much as I thought they did.
Most don't even know where it is.
Same way an average Serb feels about Burma and their problems, rest of the world think of us.

And in that light, I was saying, screw f..king kosovo, let it go; it can only create more problems if it stays in Serbia than being separated.
Let them fight with heroin import.
Put highly paid police officers on borders so they are not ****e to cheap bribes from Albanian drug dealers.
If they are going towards western Europe, let them find other way, not through Serbia.
Trust me this is huge problem.
Just look at younger Serbian generation and what drugs they are using.
It was weed and stuff before, now heroin is the drug of choice.

Anyway, thats only one of many problems we could resolve by having Kosovo away.

Until Kosovo problem is resolved and Mladic and Karadzic are in Hague, Europe wont let us get anywhere near.
Serbs are not allowed to travel freely, trade is limited because of that... a lot of things depend on Kosovo.

And that was my point.
Fighting for it is a lost cause ( well in my opinion it was lost cause once Yugoslavia was formed, still don't understand what Serbian politicians were thinking but thats another story) and even if we get it back, again, I think we'll end up with more problems than we could handle.
Serbian people are tired of wars and political instability.
They need the country to go forward a bit and let them feel safe and strong living there.
At the moment, if you gave everyone right to go and live somewhere else, wherever they choose, I think 80% would leave.
And thats bad. Very bad.
Nothing that we (Serbia and its governments) done has improved our lives.
Time to change that.
Thats all.


I understand your point of view and agree with some points you made.

I have a bit different view. Without getting into a lengthy explanation (this isn't the place for it) it essentially boils down to this:

1. I don't believe Serbia will gain anything substantial by simply "bending over backwards"....it will simply be giving up even more sovereignty in exchange for delusions.

2. In my oppinion, the EU is not the future we should be aspiring to.

[spale]

I understand your point of view and agree with some points you made.

I have a bit different view. Without getting into a lengthy explanation (this isn't the place for it) it essentially boils down to this:

1. I don't believe Serbia will gain anything substantial by simply "bending over backwards"....it will simply be giving up even more sovereignty in exchange for delusions.

2. In my oppinion, the EU is not the future we should be aspiring to.

Well, as for No. 1, I agree but we tried so hard not to for the last 15 years and look where we are.
Just thought we could try the other way and see what happens.
And not "bending over backwards" option but calculated agreements (we give you this you give us that sort of thing) I know that is unlikely but just a thought.

No. 2, if not EU, who than? surely not USA.

South East Asia (the only people in Asia that have money) have their own problems and even if the are after "an European partner" (to build their factories here and increase influence in Europe) I don't think they'll find Serbia all that interesting as our investment laws are still crap (getting better i hear but still far from what investors want).

Russia? they are looking to get closer to Europe themselves and investment wise, I can't see any coming from there either.

So, who do you have in mind?

[spale]

Mladic is keeping Serbia down.Than is not fair for the EU to make all of Serbia suffer for one man.(I pray they never catch Mladic)May God watch over him.As for Kosovo If it is stolen it will be by EU/NATO/US forcing Serbia. We will never say ok we will just give it to them.Also albos are majority in Kosovo minority in Serbia and Kosovo is still part of Serbia.So that "We are the majority here" talk is bs.CCCC

Well, I think its the other way around.
I actually believe in that conspiracy theory that Karadzic made some sort of agreement when he withdrew for his office.

I agree 100% on your thoughts regarding Mladic, I think he's one of the best Serbian generals of all times (what happened in Srebrenica and why, I would like to put a side for this comment, as it was dirty war going on at the time) and I hope he dies as free man.

But I think he's the one holding Serbia back.
Hague would forget Karadzic more easily than Mladic, IMHO.

[therobot]

Mladic has to be arrested and sent to Hague. All alleged war criminals has to stand trial. Serbs have to tke out all bad among them. Serbs are good and nice people and I do make great business with them and they are fair and they welcome you open hands but this thing with Mladic and co. has to be done !! Why is he running ? why is he hiding ? it really doesn't matter if he is guilty or not ! He must stand trial and probably the best would be for him to stand trial in Serbia. As I see Serbia has court for war crimes and is very successful ! That is what I like with serbs. They take their own people to court and judge them ! It is not the case with bosnian muslims and croats to do so ! Throughout the history serbs knew who among them is bad or not .... well time will tell

[CyberSpec]

Well, as for No. 1, I agree but we tried so hard not to for the last 15 years and look where we are.
Just thought we could try the other way and see what happens.
And not "bending over backwards" option but calculated agreements (we give you this you give us that sort of thing) I know that is unlikely but just a thought.

No. 2, if not EU, who than? surely not USA.

South East Asia (the only people in Asia that have money) have their own problems and even if the are after "an European partner" (to build their factories here and increase influence in Europe) I don't think they'll find Serbia all that interesting as our investment laws are still crap (getting better i hear but still far from what investors want).

Russia? they are looking to get closer to Europe themselves and investment wise, I can't see any coming from there either.

So, who do you have in mind?

Judging by your comments, I think you're still stuck in the 90's and don't seem to see that the center of economic power is shifting to the Pacific.

Check to see which countries have the biggest reserves of cash and tell me if you see any EU countries in the top 5

As far as Serbia goes, you've already given the answer as to what's needed....make all necessary changes to make it an investment friendly place and the money will follow.

The 1st priority should be to expand trade with the neighbouring countries and then move on from there.

-----------

On the subject of Mladic, I don't agree he was the best general. He was politically most acceptable and the media has turned him into a symbol....the best Bosnian Serb general was Slavko Lisica (my oppinion)

[cinoeye]

the best Bosnian Serb general was Slavko Lisica (my oppinion)
Glory FOx ;)

[spale]

Judging by your comments, I think you're still stuck in the 90's and don't seem to see that the center of economic power is shifting to the Pacific.

Check to see which countries have the biggest reserves of cash and tell me if you see any EU countries in the top 5

As far as Serbia goes, you've already given the answer as to what's needed....make all necessary changes to make it an investment friendly place and the money will follow.

The 1st priority should be to expand trade with the neighbouring countries and then move on from there.


I'm not entirely sure what do you mean by Pacific?
Could you explain please?

But apart from bits that we agree on (make it investment friendly) I still didn't understand what would you like see Serbia do with regards to EU?
You said you don't think that should be priority and Serbia should look for "alliance" elsewhere.
Where exactly?

I think that since we're in Europe and in couple of years nearly everyone will be in some form or another EU member, Serbia should follow and jump on that bandwagon.

Its not ideal solution but its the best way of insuring some progress for short to mid future.
Cuz very soon most of our neighbourhood will be members and if we want preferable trade with them we should join in the organization.

[cinoeye]

Still, that does not stop Serbia to have it's own foreign policy, right?

[NewsMan]

I don't know a lot about this conflict, but am interested. I'm currently embedded with US peacekeepers heading to Kosovo... so.... Anyway, I find it hard to understand why there are so few Serbs living in "the heart of Serbia (Kosovo)". Was it the war... or is it just 90% Albanian because it is? In any case... why would Serbia want control over so many Albanians... who they happen to hate A LOT? Would Serbia truly be interested in supporting the Albanian population there? I imagine the Albanians would be treated (economicaly) much like the Kurds in SE Turkey are??

[AK-Lover]

I don't know a lot about this conflict, but am interested. I'm currently embedded with US peacekeepers heading to Kosovo... so.... Anyway, I find it hard to understand why there are so few Serbs living in "the heart of Serbia (Kosovo)". Was it the war... or is it just 90% Albanian because it is? In any case... why would Serbia want control over so many Albanians... who they happen to hate A LOT? Would Serbia truly be interested in supporting the Albanian population there? I imagine the Albanians would be treated (economicaly) much like the Kurds in SE Turkey are??

Kosovo was always the heart of Serbia (physically and spiritually speaking) the ancient Serbian kingdom was nowhere close to the north as Serbia is now. In Kosovo the most ancient Serbian monasteries reside. Albanians have been in Kosovo for very long time, but until recently (WW1, WW2, Tito's time) they have never been a majority. They achieved their dominance in Kosovo through some questionable means over a lengtheir span of time.

[cinoeye]

And if you add 10-12 kids in the avarage, plus at least 30% "illegals" who escaped from Albania during Tito's time....
It's not maybe apples to apples(history wise), but what do you think?
If Serbia gives up Kosovo just because of population, why do not ask your self(David) if USA should give California to Mexico?(that is if you are from USA)

[AK-Lover]

And if you add 10-12 kids in the avarage, plus at least 30% "illegals" who escaped from Albania during Tito's time....
It's not maybe apples to apples(history wise), but what do you think?
If Serbia gives up Kosovo just because of population, why do not ask your self(David) if USA should give California to Mexico?(that is if you are from USA)

Except that California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas belonged to Mexico and were taken over by the US.

[LaoSexMachine]

Except that California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas belonged to Mexico and were taken over by the US.

Texas won it's indepencefrom Mexico in 1836. Texas was annexed by US in 1845. Mexican-American War was in 1846-1848. When Mexico lost it ceded the SW aka The Mexican Cession. The United States also paid $15,000,000 ($297,310,309 in 2005) for the land.

[SRPSKI METAK]

There is a great book about General Mladic. Ratko Mladic: Tragic Hero (http://www.amazon.com/Ratko-Mladic-Tragic-Milo-Yelesiyevich/dp/0970919808/sr=8-1/qid=1159854253/ref=sr_1_1/002-9854921-5580022?ie=UTF8&s=books) by Milo Yelesiyevich
It is sort of his side to the war rather then the media bs that was built in the 90s and is still going on today.

[cinoeye]

There is a great book about General Mladic. Ratko Mladic: Tragic Hero (http://www.amazon.com/Ratko-Mladic-Tragic-Milo-Yelesiyevich/dp/0970919808/sr=8-1/qid=1159854253/ref=sr_1_1/002-9854921-5580022?ie=UTF8&s=books) by Milo Yelesiyevich
It is sort of his side to the war rather then the media bs that was built in the 90s and is still going on today.
I don't think this have any connection with this subject bro.

[AK-Lover]

Texas won it's indepencefrom Mexico in 1836. Texas was annexed by US in 1845. Mexican-American War was in 1846-1848. When Mexico lost it ceded the SW aka The Mexican Cession. The United States also paid $15,000,000 ($297,310,309 in 2005) for the land.
The people coming to Texas, a Mexican territory were settlers invited by the Mexican government under several conditions including becoming a Mexican citizen, which the settlers didn't want to do. So after gaining independance it was more than obviuos who was trying to gain control of the territories.

[CyberSpec]

I'm not entirely sure what do you mean by Pacific?
Could you explain please?

Pacific Rim countries:

China, Russia, Japan, South East Asian countries, US, Australia.....


But apart from bits that we agree on (make it investment friendly) I still didn't understand what would you like see Serbia do with regards to EU?
You said you don't think that should be priority and Serbia should look for "alliance" elsewhere.
Where exactly?

"Alliance"???....I don't see selling out your sovereignty to a hostile organisation as an "alliance"......I can't think of a SINGLE positive thing that the EU has done for Serbia in the last 15 years.....but the list of negatives (to put it mildly) is pretty long.




I think that since we're in Europe and in couple of years (try 10-20 yrs) nearly everyone will be in some form or another EU member, Serbia should follow and jump on that bandwagon.

That sounds pretty familiar to me....just add the word Ottoman Empire in place of "Europe" and EU


Its not ideal solution but its the best way of insuring some progress for short to mid future.
Cuz very soon most of our neighbourhood will be members and if we want preferable trade with them we should join in the organization.

Like I said before, the best solution is to change the internal legal and business structure and look for partners that are willing to do business without blackmailing you or looking to stabb you in the back.....the world is a pretty big place.

In time, if/when the economic situation improves, EU membership might be still an option, but under different circumstances.

Personally, I believe the economic situation in the EU will deteriorate and they'll become more closed in.....I doubt they will accept any new members after Romania + Bulgaria for a long time

[Knez Eru]

I can't think of a SINGLE positive thing that the EU has done for Serbia in the last 15 years

The EU has provided developement funds for schools, hospitals, roads, etc.

The primary school in Svilajnac is being repaired and repainted largely through EU funds, and the main roads in the neighboring village of Kušiljevo have been re-asphalted using EBRD funds.

The EU has helped us alot over the past few years, maybe not militarily, but to the average citizen, the EU's impact has been overwhelmingly positive.

[AK-Lover]

The EU has provided developement funds for schools, hospitals, roads, etc.

The primary school in Svilajnac is being repaired and repainted largely through EU funds, and the main roads in the neighboring village of Kušiljevo have been re-asphalted using EBRD funds.

The EU has helped us alot over the past few years, maybe not militarily, but to the average citizen, the EU's impact has been overwhelmingly positive.

EXCEPT and it's a very big except, they expect us to handover our territory, disable our military and completely hand over all national companies to western firms (those which haven't been sold yet)

[CyberSpec]

The EU has provided developement funds for schools, hospitals, roads, etc.

The primary school in Svilajnac is being repaired and repainted largely through EU funds, and the main roads in the neighboring village of Kušiljevo have been re-asphalted using EBRD funds.

The EU has helped us alot over the past few years, maybe not militarily, but to the average citizen, the EU's impact has been overwhelmingly positive.

Are you serious?......so they wipe off 50 years of development and then paint your school and pave a few roads and that for you is an "overwhelmingly positive impact"

[AK-Lover]

Are you serious?......so they wipe off 50 years of development and then paint your school and pave a few roads and that for you is an "overwhelmingly positive impact"
HAHA! Although I agree that we can't maintain the status qou in Serbia we must be extremely careful how we proceed, it is a crucial time for our nation and people!

[SRPSKI METAK]

With Western pressure over Mladic and Kosovo and elections coming it does not look good for Serbia.The bottom line is what is best for the coomon people and refugees.EU integration will cause privatization and all sorts of pre-entry conditions.This privatization will hurt
the average citizen struggling on a $200 monthly income to survive.The EU will have cheap labor
and cheap raw materials.Thats why Slovenia is pro EU integration for Serbia.What are we going to do we are small and weak after years of sanctions and war.

[AK-Lover]

With Western pressure over Mladic and Kosovo and elections coming it does not look good for Serbia.The bottom line is what is best for the coomon people and refugees.EU integration will cause privatization and all sorts of pre-entry conditions.This privatization will hurt
the average citizen struggling on a $200 monthly income to survive.The EU will have cheap labor
and cheap raw materials.Thats why Slovenia is pro EU integration for Serbia.What are we going to do we are small and weak after years of sanctions and war.
Which coincedenatally they brough down on us aswell, man what a coincedence!

[SRPSKI METAK]

A little off topic but I sort of think it is true

"SRBIJA JE VECNA DOK SU JOJ DECA VERNA"

For the Serbs living outside of Serbia.CCCC