Sources: Al-Sadr supporters take over Najaf

[HELEX]

Sources: Al-Sadr supporters take over Najaf
Wanted Iraqi cleric said to be at holy shrine
Tuesday, April 6, 2004 Posted: 11:48 AM EDT (1548 GMT)



BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Supporters of maverick Muslim cleric Moqtada al-Sadr controlled government, religious and security buildings in the holy city of Najaf early Tuesday evening, according to a coalition source in southern Iraq.

The source said al-Sadr's followers controlled the governor's office, police stations and the Imam Ali mosque, one of Shia Muslim's holiest shrines.

Iraqi police were negotiating to regain their stations, the source said.

The source also said al-Sadr was busing followers into Najaf from Sadr City in Baghdad and that many members of his outlawed militia, Mehdi's Army, were from surrounding provinces.

Business people are closing their shops and either leaving the city or hoarding their wares in their homes, the source said.

Earlier Tuesday, fighting erupted on the northern side of Fallujah when a routine patrol came under fire. The Marines sent an Abrams tank and several Humvees to reinforce the patrol, along with helicopters.

One Marine was seriously wounded and evacuated to a combat hospital.

Also on Tuesday, U.S. Marines detained six Iraqis carrying explosives near an operational command post north of Fallujah, a Marine officer said. The officer said the material was intended to make homemade bombs.

In Baghdad, firefights continued Tuesday, particularly in the Shiite area of Sadr City. Reports also indicated that Italian troops were battling al-Sadr supporters in Nasiriyah.

As the fighting flared, al-Sadr, who sparked the violent clashes between his supporters and U.S. troops, was planning to take refuge in Imam Ali mosque, according to a posting on his Web site.

Al-Sadr also called for a general strike, demanding that the coalition pull back its troops from populated areas and release prisoners taken into custody in recent demonstrations.

Twelve coalition soldiers -- 11 Americans and a Salvadoran -- and dozens of Iraqis have been killed in three days of battles in Baghdad and Najaf, while firefights have erupted in other cities and towns as well.

Seven Marines were killed in the same time period in al Anbar province, west of Baghdad, along with two more soldiers in northern Iraq.

Despite the rising death toll, Paul Bremer, the top U.S. civilian administrator in Iraq, said "there is no question we have control over the country."

"I know if you just report on those few places, it does look chaotic," Bremer said on CNN's "American Morning." "But if you travel around the country, what you find is a bustling economy, people opening businesses right and left, unemployment has dropped.

"The story of the house that doesn't burn down is not much of a story in the news," he said. "The story of the house that does burn down is news."

The clashes began over the weekend when demonstrations supporting al-Sadr and his deputy -- who was arrested Saturday in connection with the killing last year of a moderate Shiite cleric by a mob of Sadr followers -- turned violent, first in Najaf against Spanish forces and then in Sadr City, named for al-Sadr's father, Mohammed al-Sadr.

The instability prompted the United Nations to temporarily halt convoys bringing Iraqi refugees back from Iran in the south.

Arrest warrant issued
The coalition announced Monday that an arrest warrant had also been issued for al-Sadr's arrest in connection with Abdul Majeed al-Khoei's death April 10, 2003, outside the Imam Ali shrine in Najaf, where al-Sadr is now reported to have taken refuge.

Twelve people were arrested last fall when an Iraqi judge issued 25 warrants in the case, including the ones for al-Sadr and his deputy, Mustafa al-Yaqoubi, arrested in Najaf on Saturday and turned over to Iraqi police Monday, coalition officials said.

Bremer, who said Monday that al-Sadr and his supporters have "basically placed (themselves) outside the legal authorities," described al-Sadr on Tuesday as "a guy who has a fundamentally inappropriate view of the new Iraq."

"He believes that in the new Iraq, like in the old Iraq, power should be to the guy with guns," Bremer said. "That is an unacceptable vision for Iraq."

A spokesman for al-Sadr, Qais al-Khazaal, said in Najaf that al-Sadr had "received many letters from other religious leaders" supporting him, mentioning Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani -- Iraqi Shia's most senior cleric.

"Sistani said in his letter that he supported us for standing for what we believe ... but that he also thought that we should try to resolve this matter in a more calm and civil way," Khazaal said.

Referring to a letter sent by Bremer shutting down the pro al-Sadr -- and anti-coalition -- Al-Hawza, Khazaal said lawyers have determined the action was "illegitimate and against all laws."

"We will form a case and fight this," he said. Pentagon sources said the military would exercise caution in seeking Sadr in an attempt to avoid giving him more stature among radicalized Iraqis.

Pentagon sources also said that U.S. Central Command chief Gen. John Abizaid had asked for options from his staff for bringing additional troops to bear against Sadr's militia if they are needed.

But the fight against al-Sadr and his followers wasn't the only clash facing coalition forces.


U.S. Marines are attempting to calm the city of Fallujah, the site of much anti-American sentiment the past few days.
U.S. Marines on Monday locked down of the restive city of Fallujah, closing off the city in response to the killing and mutilation of four American civilian contractors last week.

About 1,300 troops from the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, along with Iraqi armed forces, set up a cordon around the city Monday, said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad. The operation has been dubbed "Operation Vigilant Resolve."

Seven Marines have been killed since Saturday in the al Anbar province -- where Fallujah is located -- but the coalition has only confirmed one as a direct result of the Fallujah conflict.

Two more U.S. soldiers died Sunday, both in northern Iraq. Since the start of the war, 622 U.S. troops have died, 428 of them in hostile fire. Since President Bush announced the end of major combat in Iraq, 313 U.S. troops have been killed in hostile action.

Other developments

Britain is sending thousands of troops to Iraq to replace those already serving there, a British Ministry of Defense spokeswoman said Tuesday. Maj. Rachel Grimes said the move was part of a "normal" six-month troop rotation and would not result in an increase in the number of British troops in Iraq. About 4,500 members of the 1st Mechanized Brigade will begin deploying to Iraq at the end of the week, Grimes said. The rotation will take about a month to complete, she said.

CNN's Jane Arraf, Jim Clancy, Barbara Starr, Kevin Flower and Kianne Sadeq contributed to this report.

[scoone]

Something must be done with Moqtada al-Sadr. :slap: :fork: :-*$ :bash:

[usa320]

hes gonna get his ass kicked.

[mustamato]

hes gonna get his ass kicked.

Looks like it´s the other way around right now. You are a immature punk
without any check on reality, but the Americans in charge probably knows
that making something bad with Moqtada Al-Sadr could mean a fatwah from
this dude:

http://www.bintjbeil.com/articles/2003/images/ali_alsistani.jpg
Grand ayatollah al-Sistani

... and that would be bad.

[American Patriot]

Is Mustamato some kind of apologist for the backward Muslim fundamentalists?

[Soulhunter]

no, he's a realist

[TALOS]

hes gonna get his ass kicked.

Looks like it´s the other way around right now. You are a immature punk
without any check on reality, but the Americans in charge probably knows
that making something bad with Moqtada Al-Sadr could mean a fatwah from
this dude:

http://www.bintjbeil.com/articles/2003/images/ali_alsistani.jpg
Grand ayatollah al-Sistani

... and that would be bad.
Ummm Al sistani and mucktard dont like each other from all ive read.

edit: besides, Mucktard murdered or ordered the murder of another cleric, so if the americans can get good intelligence his power will be diminished IMHO

[scoone]

Moqtada Al-Sadr is creating a real wave of problems all around Iraq, sure is difficult situation to deal with but something must be done. Or shall he be allowed to provoke attacks on coalition forces?

[duck]

Mustamato:

Sistani and al-Sadr are rivals. Not just the individuals but also their families and clans. Sistani would like to see al-Sadr dead, more than any American official. Arabs are smart and have a Machiavellian mindset, don't underestimate them. The punks employed by al-Sadr are the loosers of Shia society, the middle and the upper class have no sympathy for him. I would compare al-Sadr's campaign with the swedish skinheads activity against journalists, law enforcement officers and foreign-born entertainers a few years ago.

BTW, the swedish Neo-Nazi movements anti-Semitic and anti-American "information page":

http://www.info14.com

[mustamato]

I would compare al-Sadr's campaign with the swedish skinheads activity against journalists, law enforcement officers and foreign-born entertainers a few years ago.

Good comparison.

[Loco]

Mustamato, I think you like playing with the news and the deads, like any other people here. It´s not funny. And of course, there´s no relation between Al Sistani and Al Sader. In fact, Al Sader, a young cleric, is trying to make himself the biggest player in the shiit community by the use of the strength. Al Sader still hasn´t the support of the majority of shiits, but this is what´s he´s trying to get with the recent fights. Al Sistani is a conservative and moderate cleric, in Iraqi terms, compared with Al Sader.

[usa320]

Mustamato is the real mucktard here.


Looks like it´s the other way around right now

Yes, a bunch of angry youth with old Kalashnikovs are going to kick our ass...maybe a few casualties, but to even fathom that they will "kick our ass" is absurd. Mucktard al Sadr is a dead man walking. all he needs to do is step outside for one second and hes toast.

And Sustani hates the mucktard.

[Soulhunter]

usa320, you sound like an angry youth too ...

[TALOS]

usa320, you sound like an angry youth too ...
Hmmm, well he may very well be, after all this mucktard has incited violence against western nations trying to rebuild and secure Iraq. He undoubtedly is angry, but he's not running around the streets shooting all the arabs in his town is he!

[Soulhunter]

no, thank god, he's not!

but you can't compare his living conditions to that of some Shia youth in a Baghdad slum ...

[TALOS]

no, thank god, he's not!

but you can't compare his living conditions to that of some Shia youth in a Baghdad slum ...
All the more reason to be confused or angry, the coalition is TRYING to bring a higher standard of living to these people and it will take time, but the time has to be granted for it to work.
You may not have agreed with the war but it is done and now everyone needs to try and support efforts to rebuild, especially those that said they disagreed with the war "cuz they cared about the Iraqis" now they have to prove it by supporting rebuilding efforts.

[Soulhunter]

I'm just doubting the current strategy of the administration is the right one and that it'll work ... but hey, I'm not there. If they want to burn themselves, it's their right. Also I pity the innocent dying while they're trying to figure out a plan.

[TALOS]

I'm just doubting the current strategy of the administration is the right one and that it'll work ... but hey, I'm not there. If they want to burn themselves, it's their right. Also I pity the innocent dying while they're trying to figure out a plan.
Then put the blame where it belongs , with Mucktard, even most of the other Shia support Sistani and not Mucktard.

[Soulhunter]

so the US government is not to blame for anything? they've made everything right?? if that's your opinion then we don't need to discuss that any further indeed.

[TALOS]

so the US government is not to blame for anything? they've made everything right?? if that's your opinion then we don't need to discuss that any further indeed.
You show me how the centuries of shia and sunni and muslim infighting is american fault.
This latest crap is the doing of Mucktard who wants to be the leading cleric of the shia and is wanted in the connection with the murder of another cleric. How is that the Americans fault?
The coalition are trying to rebuild, yes they invaded but again prior to their arrival So Damn Insane had his "people" tortured killed raped beatin all the time.
The lesser of two evils soul, the lesser of two evils.

edit for spelling

[obd]

Mustamoto and Soulhunter have no idea what they are talking about. Capturing or killing Sadr will not bring about a Fatwah from Al-Sistani. Beyond Sadr City and some poor areas of Baghdad, Sadr has little or no support and is even disliked by Sistani. Most Iraqi's view Sadr as nothing more than a young immature firebrand cleric with no authority trying to use the American occupation to gain rank.

The fact of the matter is that Sadr is more of a threat alive than dead. Sadr's "Mehdi Militia" are composed of radical Shiites concentrated in Sadr City (named after his dead father). In fact, according to Al Sistani and others, Sadr's only real legitimacy comes from the peoples love of his father and not Sadr himself.

Right now Sadr is a threat to the real clerical establishment in Iraq as he has been involved in the killing of other rival clerics with more legitimacy. Sadr is an outlaw and he has placed himself above the law therefore its time to arrest him and/or kill him. Right now his Mehdi militia are spread out as they have openly attacked in over 4 cities in small numbers and have made themselves visible to the media and others. If the coalition were to mount coordinated operations against this militia and against his supporters in Sadr City it could be virtually wiped out.

I believe firmly in the carrot and stick approach to peace keeping. Or as the infamous Pablo Escobar ounce quipped, "Plato o Plomo" which means in english "My silver or my lead". Sadr and the city of Falujah represent prime examples of where we could apply the stick method and set an example of what happens when you burn and mutilate Americans, kill Ameerican/Coalition soldiers, and spread violence against the Iraqi people and Americans.......We need to take Sadr and Fallujah down....Its example time my friends.

[Royal]

obd, welcome back.

As ever you are a shining beacon of ignorance.

[TALOS]

obd, welcome back.

As ever you are a shining beacon of ignorance.
Royal, I dont get it, his points are valid, what do you specifically have against them?
Curious cuz everyone says you are usually very reasonable here.

[HELEX]

El Sadr is an outsider, and not backed by Sistani. But if he is killed by the Americans, the other clerics wont take that.... 100% sure.....

[American Patriot]

El Sadr is an outsider, and not backed by Sistani. But if he is killed by the Americans, the other clerics wont take that.... 100% sure.....

Who said anything about Americans? It was an Iraqi judge who issued the arrest warrant and Iraqi police/ICDC will carry it out.

[Royal]

obd, welcome back.

As ever you are a shining beacon of ignorance.
Royal, I dont get it, his points are valid, what do you specifically have against them?
Curious cuz everyone says you are usually very reasonable here.

Here goes...


Mustamoto and Soulhunter have no idea what they are talking about. Capturing or killing Sadr will not bring about a Fatwah from Al-Sistani. Beyond Sadr City and some poor areas of Baghdad, Sadr has little or no support and is even disliked by Sistani. Other than about 1,000,000 or so supporters. What's that, 2.5% of the Iraqi population?Most Iraqi's view Sadr as nothing more than a young immature firebrand cleric with no authority trying to use the American occupation to gain rank. Debateable - a good chunk of them think he's taken up his father's role.

The fact of the matter is that Sadr is more of a threat alive than dead. Dead martyrs have a habit of biting back. Sadr's "Mehdi Militia" are composed of radical Shiites concentrated in Sadr City (named after his dead father). and Basrah, and Najaf and Nasirija and Kut and so on... In fact, according to Al Sistani and others, Sadr's only real legitimacy comes from the peoples love of his father and not Sadr himself.

Right now Sadr is a threat to the real clerical establishment in Iraq as he has been involved in the killing of other rival clerics with more legitimacy. Sadr is an outlaw and he has placed himself above the law therefore its time to arrest him and/or kill him. and I thought we we bringing democracy and the rule of law to Iraq, not the law of the lynch mob Right now his Mehdi militia are spread out as they have openly attacked in over 4 cities but they're only in Sadr City in small numbers and have made themselves visible to the media and others. If the coalition were to mount coordinated operations against this militia and against his supporters in Sadr City it could be virtually wiped out. Then again we could just pull out and nuke 'em all.

I believe firmly in the carrot and stick approach to peace keeping. Or as the infamous Pablo Escobar ounce quipped, "Plato o Plomo" which means in english "My silver or my lead". Sadr and the city of Falujah represent prime examples of where we could apply the stick method and set an example of what happens when you burn and mutilate Americans, kill Ameerican/Coalition soldiers, and spread violence against the Iraqi people and Americans.......We need to take Sadr and Fallujah down....Its example time my friends. Moderate, well reasoned argument. Not. Give me an example where such a method of 'peace-keeping' has worked...

[FallenAngel]

El Sadr is an outsider, and not backed by Sistani. But if he is killed by the Americans, the other clerics wont take that.... 100% sure.....

Oh course they wouldn't...cause it would set a presidence. If they start to cause trouble themselves, they would be equally vulnerable.

It's hard to deal with a rebellious minority in Iraq. The vast majority of Iraqis are not so much against American occupation as they are with Iraqis being out of the loop. Even after the Iraqi government is established and the Americans pull out, the fighting will probably continue.

Course, that's just my $.02

[TALOS]

obd, welcome back.

As ever you are a shining beacon of ignorance.
Royal, I dont get it, his points are valid, what do you specifically have against them?
Curious cuz everyone says you are usually very reasonable here.

Here goes...


Mustamoto and Soulhunter have no idea what they are talking about. Capturing or killing Sadr will not bring about a Fatwah from Al-Sistani. Beyond Sadr City and some poor areas of Baghdad, Sadr has little or no support and is even disliked by Sistani. Other than about 1,000,000 or so supporters. What's that, 2.5% of the Iraqi population?Most Iraqi's view Sadr as nothing more than a young immature firebrand cleric with no authority trying to use the American occupation to gain rank. Debateable - a good chunk of them think he's taken up his father's role.

The fact of the matter is that Sadr is more of a threat alive than dead. Dead martyrs have a habit of biting back. Sadr's "Mehdi Militia" are composed of radical Shiites concentrated in Sadr City (named after his dead father). and Basrah, and Najaf and Nasirija and Kut and so on... In fact, according to Al Sistani and others, Sadr's only real legitimacy comes from the peoples love of his father and not Sadr himself.

Right now Sadr is a threat to the real clerical establishment in Iraq as he has been involved in the killing of other rival clerics with more legitimacy. Sadr is an outlaw and he has placed himself above the law therefore its time to arrest him and/or kill him. and I thought we we bringing democracy and the rule of law to Iraq, not the law of the lynch mob Right now his Mehdi militia are spread out as they have openly attacked in over 4 cities but they're only in Sadr City in small numbers and have made themselves visible to the media and others. If the coalition were to mount coordinated operations against this militia and against his supporters in Sadr City it could be virtually wiped out. Then again we could just pull out and nuke 'em all.

I believe firmly in the carrot and stick approach to peace keeping. Or as the infamous Pablo Escobar ounce quipped, "Plato o Plomo" which means in english "My silver or my lead". Sadr and the city of Falujah represent prime examples of where we could apply the stick method and set an example of what happens when you burn and mutilate Americans, kill Ameerican/Coalition soldiers, and spread violence against the Iraqi people and Americans.......We need to take Sadr and Fallujah down....Its example time my friends. Moderate, well reasoned argument. Not. Give me an example where such a method of 'peace-keeping' has worked...
Thank you for your reasoned reply, thats what I expected from you. I still of course agree that Mucktard needs to be arrested as he has been connected to murders of his own people even and he will only continue to incite. One of the biggest complaints people have is that Clinton never arrested UBL and look where we are now.
Your points are definately clear but IMHO I think its determining how to arrest with the least amount of fallout, not WHETHER he should be arrested.

[obd]

Lol Royal you have no idea what you are talking about. Sadr does not have anywhere near 1,000,000 supporters as you claim.. I wonder where you get that number from? The top of your head probably...According to Shiite leaders in Iraq, Sadrs support comes mostly from the city in which he and his father lived "Sadr City" which is really just an overpopulated suburb of Baghdad.

Next, you say its debatable that Sadr's popularity comes from his father. Well I have heard just about every prominent high ranking Shiite cleric who gave an interview say EXACTLY that about Sadr. But of course you know more than the leaders who have lived in Iraq thier whole lives dont you!!!!!

Next, Sadr lacks the credentials to even become a Martyr. He doesnt have the rank or the support of the clerical establishment....


Next, his support in Basah, Najaf, and Kut is not nearly as high as in Sadr City. Very few suport him. In fact, the Mehdi militia that took over police headquaters and govnt offices in some of this cities were actually from Sadr City and not any of those cities......

Next you respond to me saying that we should arrest and or kill him by saying "I thought we were bringing the rule of law to Iraq". Maybe you just dont get it, but thats what arresting him is all about: He has placed himself above the law and has sent out his militia to attack and kill the only true upholders of the law. Lets not forget that Sadr has also been indicted for murder of a rival cleric and for the murder of several Iraqi police in Baghdad. IF thats not a matter of upholding the law Royal than I dont know what is....

Give you an example of where such peacekeeping has worked?? Royal, the carrot and stick approach has been a time honored and succesful method in all kinds of actions, not just peacekeeping. It just plain makes sense. Its a sytem of punishment and rewards.......its very reasonalbe and rational.

So Royal, it is actually you who makes no sense at all with your irrational attacl on what I said. TALOS, Im surprised that you found Royals reply reasoned. I mean if you look at what he said it basically reads : "We should sit back on our ass and do nothing because this guy who is sending out his men to kill Iraqi police, American soldiers, and rival clerics and he has alot of suport and aresting him would be against the rule of law (I dont know how he formulated that one) and it would make him a martyr"

thats got to be the stupidest argument I have ever heard....To sum it up in one word I would say his argument is "defeatest".

Oh and one more thing Royal: Its a hell of alot easier to destroy something than it is to create it. All I ever see you doing around this forum is calling people names for the opinions they post and not actually posting any original ideas of your own. How about istead of calling me irrational you come up with a stand of your own instead of taking the easy way out and just nitpicking my argument..............

[HELEX]

Who said anything about Americans? It was an Iraqi judge who issued the arrest warrant and Iraqi police/ICDC will carry it out.

A Iraqi Puppet Judge.... and are you talking about the same police/ICDC who shot at coalition troops and ran away from all Police stations there? rofl

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Lol Royal you have no idea what you are talking about.
Jeez Royal you know nothing you have not even read any of those "Encyclopaedias of the SAS" man your a let down, you probably never went on any Death March. I am listening to obd from now on.

PS. You probably don't have any Commando comics either ya fake.

[MaDuce]

Sadar organized the assassination of a rivial cleric that is murder last time I checked. If he didn't have an milita he would be arrested as a common crook.

[obd]

Haha, nice one B. This has nothing to do with my reading any of that. I read as much as I can find. With regard to the "SAS Encyclopedai" I mentioned on a different post related to weapons issues I just brought it up because I remmembered reading something in that about the SAS using the Steyr AUG in anti terror ops. Jeez Bacilluspolymyxa relax man....... I know you are trying to belittle me but at least dont make yourself look the fool.......

[Chris1]

Lol Royal you have no idea what you are talking about. Sadr does not have anywhere near 1,000,000 supporters as you claim.. I wonder where you get that number from? The top of your head probably...According to Shiite leaders in Iraq, Sadrs support comes mostly from the city in which he and his father lived "Sadr City" which is really just an overpopulated suburb of Baghdad.

Next, you say its debatable that Sadr's popularity comes from his father. Well I have heard just about every prominent high ranking Shiite cleric who gave an interview say EXACTLY that about Sadr. But of course you know more than the leaders who have lived in Iraq thier whole lives dont you!!!!!

Next, Sadr lacks the credentials to even become a Martyr. He doesnt have the rank or the support of the clerical establishment....


Next, his support in Basah, Najaf, and Kut is not nearly as high as in Sadr City. Very few suport him. In fact, the Mehdi militia that took over police headquaters and govnt offices in some of this cities were actually from Sadr City and not any of those cities......

Next you respond to me saying that we should arrest and or kill him by saying "I thought we were bringing the rule of law to Iraq". Maybe you just dont get it, but thats what arresting him is all about: He has placed himself above the law and has sent out his militia to attack and kill the only true upholders of the law. Lets not forget that Sadr has also been indicted for murder of a rival cleric and for the murder of several Iraqi police in Baghdad. IF thats not a matter of upholding the law Royal than I dont know what is....

Give you an example of where such peacekeeping has worked?? Royal, the carrot and stick approach has been a time honored and succesful method in all kinds of actions, not just peacekeeping. It just plain makes sense. Its a sytem of punishment and rewards.......its very reasonalbe and rational.

So Royal, it is actually you who makes no sense at all with your irrational attacl on what I said. TALOS, Im surprised that you found Royals reply reasoned. I mean if you look at what he said it basically reads : "We should sit back on our ass and do nothing because this guy who is sending out his men to kill Iraqi police, American soldiers, and rival clerics and he has alot of suport and aresting him would be against the rule of law (I dont know how he formulated that one) and it would make him a martyr"

thats got to be the stupidest argument I have ever heard....To sum it up in one word I would say his argument is "defeatest".
You can but laugh really.
Been to Iraq recently?
Royal has.

[obd]

Lol Royal you have no idea what you are talking about. Sadr does not have anywhere near 1,000,000 supporters as you claim.. I wonder where you get that number from? The top of your head probably...According to Shiite leaders in Iraq, Sadrs support comes mostly from the city in which he and his father lived "Sadr City" which is really just an overpopulated suburb of Baghdad.

Next, you say its debatable that Sadr's popularity comes from his father. Well I have heard just about every prominent high ranking Shiite cleric who gave an interview say EXACTLY that about Sadr. But of course you know more than the leaders who have lived in Iraq thier whole lives dont you!!!!!

Next, Sadr lacks the credentials to even become a Martyr. He doesnt have the rank or the support of the clerical establishment....


Next, his support in Basah, Najaf, and Kut is not nearly as high as in Sadr City. Very few suport him. In fact, the Mehdi militia that took over police headquaters and govnt offices in some of this cities were actually from Sadr City and not any of those cities......

Next you respond to me saying that we should arrest and or kill him by saying "I thought we were bringing the rule of law to Iraq". Maybe you just dont get it, but thats what arresting him is all about: He has placed himself above the law and has sent out his militia to attack and kill the only true upholders of the law. Lets not forget that Sadr has also been indicted for murder of a rival cleric and for the murder of several Iraqi police in Baghdad. IF thats not a matter of upholding the law Royal than I dont know what is....

Give you an example of where such peacekeeping has worked?? Royal, the carrot and stick approach has been a time honored and succesful method in all kinds of actions, not just peacekeeping. It just plain makes sense. Its a sytem of punishment and rewards.......its very reasonalbe and rational.

So Royal, it is actually you who makes no sense at all with your irrational attacl on what I said. TALOS, Im surprised that you found Royals reply reasoned. I mean if you look at what he said it basically reads : "We should sit back on our ass and do nothing because this guy who is sending out his men to kill Iraqi police, American soldiers, and rival clerics and he has alot of suport and aresting him would be against the rule of law (I dont know how he formulated that one) and it would make him a martyr"

thats got to be the stupidest argument I have ever heard....To sum it up in one word I would say his argument is "defeatest".

Oh and one more thing Royal: Its a hell of alot easier to destroy something than it is to create it. All I ever see you doing around this forum is calling people names for the opinions they post and not actually posting any original ideas of your own. How about istead of calling me irrational you come up with a stand of your own instead of taking the easy way out and just nitpicking my argument..............

And that goes for you too Bacilluspolymyxa. Hell its not like you said anything meanigful. You seem to make a career out of bashing what others say without taking any stand yourself......

[cut]

obd, I have no idea how you can claim to know what you do, why don't you explain to us mere mortals how you can be so omnicient?

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I know you are trying to belittle me but at least dont make yourself look the fool.......
I regret my actions obd I do not want to look foolish in the eyes of one so masterful if you could guide me and keep me from committing such foolish acts again, I would be forever grateful.

[Royal]

Lol Royal you have no idea what you are talking about. No, I'm just a f**kwit grunt. Sadr does not have anywhere near 1,000,000 supporters as you claim.. I wonder where you get that number from? The top of your head probably... Yes, having read the daily press cuttings and IntReps... According to Shiite leaders in Iraq you of course speak Iraqi Arabic and listen to all their interviews, or did you visit them? Care to name a few?, Sadrs support comes mostly from the city in which he and his father lived "Sadr City" which is really just an overpopulated suburb of Baghdad. Yeah, 2,000,000 people is one hell of a suburb.

Next, you say its debatable that Sadr's popularity comes from his father. Well I have heard just about every prominent high ranking Shiite cleric who gave an interview say EXACTLY that about Sadr. But of course you know more than the leaders who have lived in Iraq thier whole lives dont you!!!!! you of course speak Iraqi Arabic and listen to all their interviews, or did you visit them? Care to name a few?,

Next, Sadr lacks the credentials to even become a Martyr. He doesnt have the rank or the support of the clerical establishment.... from what I remember neither did Joan of Arc (for example).

Next, his support in Basah, Najaf, and Kut is not nearly as high as in Sadr City. Very few suport him. In fact, the Mehdi militia that took over police headquaters and govnt offices in some of this cities were actually from Sadr City and not any of those cities...... been there and spoken to them, checked the regional accents have you? How about those in Basrah (just for example) did they travel down too?

Next you respond to me saying that we should arrest and or kill him by saying "I thought we were bringing the rule of law to Iraq". Maybe you just dont get it, but thats what arresting him is all about: He has placed himself above the law and has sent out his militia to attack and kill the only true upholders of the law. Lets not forget that Sadr has also been indicted for murder of a rival cleric and for the murder of several Iraqi police in Baghdad. IF thats not a matter of upholding the law Royal than I dont know what is.... Arrest is fine, it's your evident glee in him being slaughtered on the spot I have a problem with...

Give you an example of where such peacekeeping has worked?? Royal, the carrot and stick approach has been a time honored and succesful method in all kinds of actions, not just peacekeeping. It just plain makes sense. Its a sytem of punishment and rewards.......its very reasonalbe and rational. I'll ask again, give me an example of where such peacekeeping has worked... What exactly is reasonable about targeting innocent civilians who had nothing to do with the crime BTW?

So Royal, it is actually you who makes no sense at all with your irrational attacl on what I said. TALOS, Im surprised that you found Royals reply reasoned. I mean if you look at what he said it basically reads : "We should sit back on our ass and do nothing because this guy who is sending out his men to kill Iraqi police, American soldiers, and rival clerics and he has alot of suport and aresting him would be against the rule of law (I dont know how he formulated that one) and it would make him a martyr"

thats got to be the stupidest argument I have ever heard....To sum it up in one word I would say his argument is "defeatest".

Oh and one more thing Royal: Its a hell of alot easier to destroy something than it is to create it. All I ever see you doing around this forum is calling people names for the opinions they post and not actually posting any original ideas of your own. How about istead of calling me irrational you come up with a stand of your own instead of taking the easy way out and just nitpicking my argument..............

Now I'm getting angry. You may not have sussed it yet (I know by now that you're not blessed with the smarts) but that's what I do for a living. I've made plenty of suggestions - along the lines of conducting 'hearts and minds' Ops and targetted raids on known terrorists, but hey you probably wouldn't hear about those from your comfy armchair, because we don't put out press releases for that sort of thing and now the US (or at least the USMC) is begining to do the same thing.

[Argyll]

obd=CIA/SOG/MI5/MI6/SAD/FBI/GREY FOX/the whole shooting match.

A Brilliant Tactician/Military strategist/Multi linguist/specialises in World affairs,is a Political genius, and has read all the SAS books out there Royal so he must be right mate ;)

[TriggerPuller]

[quote="Argyll"]obd=CIA/SOG/MI5/MI6/SAD/FBI/GREY FOX/the whole shooting match.

quote] In other words a real Secret Squirrell!!

TP

[ibstolidude]

obd=CIA/SOG/MI5/MI6/SAD/FBI/GREY FOX/the whole shooting match.

In other words a real Secret Squirrell!!

TP

SAD is right

[usa320]

This guy isnt being arrested/offed for his opposition to the US- hes being arrested for offing another Cleric in a mosque after an altercation.

If a priest killed another priest in your church- would you want the guy to remain in a religious position of authority?

[Argyll]

This guy isnt being arrested/offed for his opposition to the US- hes being arrested for offing another Cleric in a mosque after an altercation.

If a priest killed another priest in your church- would you want the guy to remain in a religious position of authority?


A lot of people are forgetting this fact ;)

[usa320]

hes gonna get his ass kicked.


Looks like it´s the other way around right now.

No it doesnt- More Iraqi militia men have been killed in the past 3 days than American soldiers in the past 7 or 8 months.

[HELEX]

No it doesnt- More Iraqi militia men have been killed in the past 3 days than American soldiers in the past 7 or 8 months.


When you kill some of them, more of them will get pissed. The Iraqi losses are meaningless to them.

[usa320]

When you kill some of them, more of them will get pissed

Theres only estimated to be a couple hundred Sadr followers. They will either surrender or die in due time.

[HELEX]

Theres only estimated to be a couple hundred Sadr followers. They will either surrender or die in due time.


NO! Who told you that BS?

:cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli: :cantbeli:

[Haiw]

Wait... so in this thread we have a young armchair warrior thinking he knows more about the current (military) situation in Iraq than 15+ year Royal Marine with a Queens commision.

Oh well. Sure was nice knowing you obd.

[Flagg]

Just got here......interesting... :roll:

first Argyll, now Royal

obd...please answer the following questions:

1st Question: How can you insult and argue with people who have been on operations in places you have never visited, let alone been operational?

2nd Question: How can you not see your complete lack of credibility regarding the 1st question?

obd...you're digging a hole for yourself...sort it out

[Garibaldi]

Let me go back to the original issue: Al-Sadr and his supporters.
Of course not all the sunnis are publicly backing Al-Sadr, and I agree also that his followers might be a minnority amid the sunni population. But I suspect almost all the sunnis want the americans to leave as soon as possible to seize power, Al-Sistani included. You can compare it with the situation involving Palestine authority and Hamas. I think Arafat wants the destruction of the state of Israel as much as Hamas. But he doesn´t admit it and , instead, encourages the hard-core palestinian movements (Hamas among them) to do the "dirty work" he doesn´t want to do to avoid being discredited in front of the international community.
I believe Al-Sistani and Al-Sadr are playing the "good cop-bad cop" game, with one side uprising and fighting the occupation, and the other looking as the moderete side, but secretly encouraging the hard-liners.

[obd]

You see its kinda funny Flag. Being in the Army or the military in general doesnt mean your opinion matters any more than anyone elses. Dont you see the falicy of your question/statement Flag?? Its a classic really. Instead of arguing the merits of your point you argue the merits of yourself giving that point. I was on the debate team in high school and let me tell you: Its a realy common trick to use when your argument sucks..........

So thats the answer to your question. Hope that works for you.......

[Flagg]

You see its kinda funny Flag. Being in the Army or the military in general doesnt mean your opinion matters any more than anyone elses.

So does that mean your preaching of book read theory can be in any way compared to the first hand professional experience of those you insult and argue with? I think not



Dont you see the falicy of your question/statement Flag?? Its a classic really. Instead of arguing the merits of your point you argue the merits of yourself giving that point. I was on the debate team in high school and let me tell you: Its a realy common trick to use when your argument sucks..........

How about an analogy?

Your amateur ranting is analogous to a high school biology student arguing with a team of surgeons on how to save a patient, based on something you read in a book....


So thats the answer to your question. Hope that works for you.......

Nahh...doesn't work for me......but it is exactly what I expected from you.

[MetalBoy]

Let me go back to the original issue: Al-Sadr and his supporters.
I believe Al-Sistani and Al-Sadr are playing the "good cop-bad cop" game, with one side uprising and fighting the occupation, and the other looking as the moderete side, but secretly encouraging the hard-liners.

Hopefully the "Bad Cop" will soon be a "Dead Corpse"

[obd]

Actually Flag, if you bothered to read my posts, my "rantings" are based on interviews from high ranking clerics such as Ali al-Sistani and many others, also from interviews given from Iraqi provisional authority, from statements made by average Iraqi's on the street, by former regime loyalists, by various Shiites of various ranks and influence, by Sadr himself as issued by his press secretary, by Paul Bremer, Paul Wolfowitz, **** Cheney, by actual events on the ground such as ambushes by Mehdi militia and such, and also on plain old common sense.

So Foking what if some people on here were former soldiers. I have tons of former soldiers and current soldiers as freinds and most of them joined up because they didnt have the ambition to go on to higher education at the moment and/or they hadnt the intelligence. Face it, many officers, at least in the US Army, are college educated..... Also, one may be a soldier yet have no experience on PMC's, or what exactly is going on in Iraq. Example: A high school buddy named Zach who is in the Army. Just got through basic. Did they teach him how to speek Arabic? Nope. What about the intricacies of Muslum culture? Nope Geopolitics? Nope They taught him how to clean his rifle, shoot his rifle, dissassemble his rifle, how to obey quickly and without question orders from superiors, how to properly bayonet a person, how to act as a team, and he ran a helluva alot etc......

I must say, your analogy is adequate in that I get your point but it is flawed to the core. Whereas as knowledge of the brain would be vital to your average brain surgeon, most average soldiers have little or no knowledge of the culture they operate in, nor do they necesarily need it although of course that would be beneficial.

Hence I repeat to you: It is a mistake to argue the merits of yourself giving the point rather than the point itself. It points to the weekness of the argument itself, even if unintended. It is always best, if possible, to argue your point and let your logic speak for itself. Sometimes it can be advantageous to your argument to mention your own merits to give it a form of legitimacy but to an aware audience (such as a judging panel in debate contests) it is risky to rely solely on the merits of the presentor and not the argument.....get my point?