Germany detains ex-SS man for 1943 killing in Denmark [Archive]

Salonen

09-22-2006, 01:48 AM

http://images.bm4.metropol.dk/237/237078/237078_normal.jpg

Germany detains ex-SS man for 1943 killing in Denmark

The Associated Press
September 21, 2006

BERLIN Police detained an 84-year-old former member of the Nazi SS wanted in Denmark for the assassination of a journalist during World War II, a prosecutor said Thursday.

Police detained Soeren Kam, who was born in Denmark but holds German citizenship, at his home in the Bavarian town of Kempten on Wednesday, Munich prosecutor Joachim Ettenhofer said.

German authorities were acting on a European arrest warrant issued by Denmark. A Munich court will decide next week whether he can be extradited, Ettenhofer said.

Kam and several others are accused of shooting to death Danish newspaper editor Carl Henrik Clemmensen in Lyngby, a suburb of the Danish capital Copenhagen.

Clemmensen was kidnapped Aug. 30, 1943, and found dead the next morning. Kam was linked to the assassination by another Danish Nazi, Knud Flemming Helweg-Larsen, who was executed Jan. 5, 1946, for his part in the slaying. Another suspected gunman, Jorgen V. Bitsch, disappeared after the war.

Kam has admitted that he was among the three Danish SS officers who fired at Clemmensen.

But Kam has said he fired only after Clemmensen already was dead, and German prosecutors dropped a murder case against him in 1971 for lack of evidence.

A former member of a Danish branch of the SS known as the Schalburg Corps, Kam fled Denmark after the war and married a German woman.

The Danish Justice Ministry said last month that it had sent the arrest warrant to Germany. A Danish court ruled in 2004 that he should be charged with murder in the case.

German forces invaded neighboring Denmark on April 9, 1940, and occupied the Scandinavian country for five years.

goat89

09-22-2006, 01:50 AM

Damn...even a journalist....

Enduring Freedom

09-22-2006, 03:19 AM

Finally....

Holycrusader

09-22-2006, 04:12 AM

Another "noble" warrior from SS arrested...
Happy, happy news...

Exer

09-22-2006, 05:17 AM

Why is that guy getting a beat down for killing in war when another gets to be the pope? - Note i have no idea what the hell he was doing the pope that is.

Macs.

09-22-2006, 05:44 AM

Note i have no idea what the hell he was doing the pope that is.

Then don't write something like that, if you did some research you would know that what you just said about the pope is nonsense... :roll:

CruddyLeper

09-22-2006, 06:56 AM

(Calm).

Waffen SS unit?

Didn't think so.

http://axis101.bizland.com/DanishLegion02.htm

60 years later, all SS are still regarded as institutional criminals. Blah.

You know what? I think they've got more chance of convicting Rapunzel than this guy. He's had nearly 60 years to get his case ready. I hope they do, it's clear he was one of the many murderers holding down occupied countries, but I'm a pessimist in such things.

Look at Pinochet. There's another murdering bastard that got away with it.

toki

09-22-2006, 07:21 AM

Why is that guy getting a beat down for killing in war when another gets to be the pope? - Note i have no idea what the hell he was doing the pope that is.

wow...

Macs beat me to it an this user is suspended, but painting random Hitler youth members with the same brush as war criminals is beyond words, especially adding

Note i have no idea what the hell he was doing the pope that is

Should i cry or laugh? :cantbeli:

Pvt.Anderson

09-22-2006, 08:00 AM

Another "noble" warrior from SS arrested...
Happy, happy news...

Well at least we do arrest the criminals , what about the NKVD , did anyone get arrested ?

Why is that guy getting a beat down for killing in war when another gets to be the pope? - Note i have no idea what the hell he was doing the pope that is.

I really hope this will bring you the dumbass of the month award , well done

CPL Trevoga

09-22-2006, 08:25 AM

Well at least we do arrest the criminals , what about the NKVD , did anyone get arrested ?

Just FYI. Poland did not have NKVD adn NKVD was not a militant wing of a political party like SS. It was similar to CIA and FBI all rolled in one.

Pvt.Anderson

09-22-2006, 08:26 AM

Just FYI. Poland did not have NKVD adn NKVD was not a militant wing of a political party like SS. It was similar to CIA and FBI all rolled in one.

yeh sure , was pointed at russia tho ;]

estonian

09-22-2006, 08:46 AM

same thoughts here. i really hope they chase and haul them (soviet war criminals) into court

estonian

09-22-2006, 08:50 AM

[QUOTE=Pvt.Anderson;1942826]Well at least we do arrest the criminals , what about the NKVD , did anyone get arrested ?]

same thoughts here. i really hope they chase and haul them (soviet war criminals) into court

gemjarnar

09-22-2006, 12:24 PM

same thoughts here. i really hope they chase and haul them (soviet war criminals) into court

doubt it will ever happen ... in Poland it took 14-16 years after the fall of communism (some one corret me if i am mistaken) to start ivestigations about PRL-era judges that sentenced partisans, members of the underground and so on to death ... but in Russia i doubt there is enought political will to start such investigations and i dont think the majority of russians would vote for it.

Kilgor

09-22-2006, 07:29 PM

Just FYI. Poland did not have NKVD adn NKVD was not a militant wing of a political party like SS. It was similar to CIA and FBI all rolled in one.

The NKVD is best known for the Main Directorate for State Security (GUGB), which succeeded the OGPU and the Cheka as the secret police agency of the Soviet Union. The GUGB was instrumental in Stalin's ethnic cleansing and genocides, and was responsible for massacres of civilians and other war crimes. Many consider the NKVD to be a criminal organization, mostly for the activities of GUGB officers and investigators, as well as supporting NKVD troops and GULAG guards

Yeap.. sounds like the FBI and CIA to me :)

Teufel_

09-22-2006, 07:39 PM

Hunterhr

09-22-2006, 09:52 PM

you can consider it what you want, im pretty sure russian town on blatic state border built statue to NKVD :)

Hell, I'd throw a damn parade in their honor.

Anything to keep me from being taken out and shot.

Kilgor

09-22-2006, 11:18 PM

you can consider it what you want, im pretty sure russian town on blatic state border built statue to NKVD :)

I heard there is also a SS one in estonia ?

Does that mean they arnt a criminal organisation too ? :roll:

LoveMeister

09-25-2006, 05:11 AM

S0ren Kam was a member of Freikorps Danmark. He did - later in the war - join the Schalburg Korps (named after Christian Von Schalburg the second commander of Freikorps Danmark) but only after many years at the eastern front. A murder is a murder but there are a few things which in my opinion speaks against arresting S0ren Kam:

No matter how tough you are there is no doubt that prolonged exposure to heavy combat will damage you. Just like some Vietnam vets. had a hard time adjusting to 'normal' life because they were processed out in a week (that means Monday they will be fighting for their life in the Jungle and the following Sunday they will be at Macdonald with the wife and kids - roughly speaking) so did the Freikorps vets. experience the shock of being transferred from the Eastern front to Copenhagen over a very short period of time. Someone is bound to get hurt...

C.H. Clemmensen was a very outspoken newspaper editor who did not go quietly about his dislike for the whole Nazi thing. The day before the kidnap and eventual shooting he had spat on a German officer (who were Danish and a friend of the three shooters) and called him 'things' while they were passing each other on the most busy tram station at that time (N0rreport). When at war it is normally Bad Banjo to speak too openly about the enemy when he has occupied your country...

60 years have passed, things were different back then and the two men had political beliefs that were - to put it mild - clashing. Something was bound to happen...

Having said all this I most truly find the murder disgusting and coward like. There is no doubt C.H. Clemmensen was a very brave man for doing what he did.

Cheers

Thunder

09-25-2006, 06:24 AM

What is the point in prosecuting him at this age, really? The man is 84 years old, he could die next time he takes a piss. Are they going to lock him up for the few remaining months/years he has left?

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 06:48 AM

The point is, murder is an inexcusable crime. Murderers should be punished as a warning that no matter how long ago it was... it was still WRONG.

Hukatus

09-25-2006, 09:13 AM

The point is, murder is an inexcusable crime. Murderers should be punished as a warning that no matter how long ago it was... it was still WRONG.nice words but in reality it is utopia, no one judges over the crimes of the "winners" or so to say "good guys"...

LoveMeister

09-25-2006, 02:04 PM

The point is, murder is an inexcusable crime. Murderers should be punished as a warning that no matter how long ago it was... it was still WRONG.

It was war. When you openly take a political stance in a theatre of war you will automatically become a viable target to some. I know this logic also can be applied to Al-Qaida (sp?) and their atrocities but I think there's a difference in time and scale here. C.H Clemmensen was not a 'random bystander' or a unsuspecting victim. He was politically active and outspoken in a very harsh and unforgiving climate.

Mr. CruddyLeper I do agree with you 100% that murder is murder. All I'm trying to say here is that in this case other factors might have to be taken into consideration before one pass judgement. This is not a peace-time murder trial mind you...

My brother in-law are buddies with the grandson of Mr. C.H. Clemmensen and the grandson actually visited S0ren Kam a few years ago to tell him he had forgiven him on behalf of his family.

Once again Mr. C.H. Clemmensen is a man that should be remembered for being unusually brave and clever. I do not mean to disrespect his memory for speaking against his killers arrest.

Cheers

Saranof

09-25-2006, 02:48 PM

nice words but in reality it is utopia, no one judges over the crimes of the "winners" or so to say "good guys"...

You mean US soldiers in Iraq (the winners of the war so to say) cannot be prosecuted for any crimes they might commit?

Hunterhr

09-25-2006, 02:53 PM

You mean US soldiers in Iraq (the winners of the war so to say) cannot be prosecuted for any crimes they might commit?

And since some already have been, that throws that little theory out the window.

nice words but in reality it is utopia, no one judges over the crimes of the "winners" or so to say "good guys"...

The 'good guys' police their own. That's why they're the 'good guys'.

Saranof

09-25-2006, 02:55 PM

I've always had a grdge against the uncompromising "winners write history" kind of thinking, because reality isn't that simple.

Hunterhr

09-25-2006, 03:05 PM

I've always had a grdge against the uncompromising "winners write history" kind of thinking, because reality isn't that simple.

I always have a good laugh at that one. Look at the western historiography of the Eastern Front. Nothing but German sources and accounts of German soldiers and officers right up until the 1960's. That's why you still have people saying that the cold beat the Germans. You don't even see a good account of the Soviet side until Erickson writes 'Road to Stalingrad' and 'Road to Berlin' in the 1970's.

If your interviewing German generals, you're sure as hell not letting the winners write history.

'The winners right history' is a silly motto for people who don't like the version of history that's presented and would rather make up a different one.

Saranof

09-25-2006, 03:53 PM

Especialy if the winner (s) bring a freedom of expression and the like. It makes it harder to fabricate BS and sell it as truth, even if this probably still happens to some extent.

CPL Trevoga

09-25-2006, 06:16 PM

The NKVD is best known for the Main Directorate for State Security (GUGB), which succeeded the OGPU and the Cheka as the secret police agency of the Soviet Union. The GUGB was instrumental in Stalin's ethnic cleansing and genocides, and was responsible for massacres of civilians and other war crimes. Many consider the NKVD to be a criminal organization, mostly for the activities of GUGB officers and investigators, as well as supporting NKVD troops and GULAG guards

Yeap.. sounds like the FBI and CIA to me :)

Some of your claims are highly debatable, the "ethnic clensing" part is plainly untrue. Destruction of "bourgeoisie" class somewhat true though. The Internationale, hymn of Stalin's Soviet Union does make reference to extermination of the "old world."

NKVD and Stalin were never convicted of any war crimes, unlike SS, which is not just "considered" criminal, it is criminal by international standards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale

Anyway, I do believe that even frail old men (SS,NKVD or whoever) should pay for their crimes even after many many years. There is no exparation on murder.

Kilgor

09-25-2006, 08:26 PM

Some of your claims are highly debatable, the "ethnic clensing" part is plainly untrue. Destruction of "bourgeoisie" class somewhat true though. The Internationale, hymn of Stalin's Soviet Union does make reference to extermination of the "old world."

NKVD and Stalin were never convicted of any war crimes, unlike SS, which is not just "considered" criminal, it is criminal by international standards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale

Anyway, I do believe that even frail old men (SS,NKVD or whoever) should pay for their crimes even after many many years. There is no exparation on murder.

The mass deportations to siberian wastelands and where mortality was execptionally high would be considered deliberate manslaughter and enthnic clenling. And the forced starvation and broken resistance of ukrainians would be certainly considered genocide. And just because a group or man was never "convicted" of any crime, this does not make them any less of a crimimal than the ones that were. After all, is there any difference to the NKVD shooting people into mass graves in katyn vs the SS who shot people into mass graves in babi yar ?

Both will go down in history as criminals, though people of extreme political viewpoints will disagree. (ie, communist or nazi fanboys)

asch

09-25-2006, 09:08 PM

The mass deportations to siberian wastelands
yeah, riiight. richest of natural resources area in SU.

by the way, the trouble is: nobody yet have a universal system of standarts, according to which we can judge such things.

Kilgor

09-25-2006, 10:22 PM

yeah, riiight. richest of natural resources area in SU.
.

Its a wasteland when you get dumped out in the middle of it with no proper shelter, little food, and the harshest working conditions. Some of the camps didnt even need massive security, the chances of surviving on the run were even less than surviving in the camps themselves.

Pvt.Anderson

09-26-2006, 08:50 AM

Some of your claims are highly debatable, the "ethnic clensing" part is plainly untrue. Destruction of "bourgeoisie" class somewhat true though. The Internationale, hymn of Stalin's Soviet Union does make reference to extermination of the "old world."

NKVD and Stalin were never convicted of any war crimes, unlike SS, which is not just "considered" criminal, it is criminal by international standards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale

Anyway, I do believe that even frail old men (SS,NKVD or whoever) should pay for their crimes even after many many years. There is no exparation on murder.

Well then you have to ask yourself why weren't they ? Ever heard of mass rapings in east germany ? That ain't a warcrime right ?

your right about this though

Anyway, I do believe that even frail old men (SS,NKVD or whoever) should pay for their crimes even after many many years. There is no exparation on murder.

Hukatus

09-26-2006, 09:55 AM

You mean US soldiers in Iraq (the winners of the war so to say) cannot be prosecuted for any crimes they might commit?
no, i mean the "good old" days. but also current conflicts.

Holmer

09-26-2006, 08:40 PM

Winners decide the losers fate...war crimes were committed on all sides even us nice Canadians. A murder is a murder...true...but one must consider the times as well.

Here is an excerpt from the book "Beyond Valor" by Patrick O''Donnell...not to pick on my US friends, but I don't think anyone was prosecuted for these actions nor is it currently on cue to be investigated. Again, winners decide the losers fate.

Veteran from the 82nd Airborne 505th PIR, talks about a massacre of German POWs.

"I think one of the most memorable things [in Belgium] was Christmas eve [1944] along the Salm River line. We had some twenty-some-odd German prisoners that we'd taken and on Christmas eve, the 505th, in their deployment, stuck out in the overall [line] of the German advance. So the name of the game was to withdraw. You cannot make a night withdrawal with enemies in a bitter cold snow and bring these people back; I won't go on record and say it was another Malmedy massacre. But it was in fact another massacre that took place that you can't read about, you won't hear about.

It was a matter of not being able to comply with the order to withdraw and do it without losing your own people and bring back a bunch of enemy people....No roads to speak of and you're coming back through the damn woods, so the name of the game was, you don't bring prisoners back. It's a sad commentary, and this was on Christmas Eve, and we had to withdraw, and we had twenty-two to twenty-three [SS] prisoners. One of the German prisoners who was very well educated-an officer that went to school in the United States and spoke English very well - couldn't understand the rationale. If the shoe had been on the other foot, you'd have said the same thing. To be just a statistic, that's just some of the fate of being a wartime situation. It was right there and then, a matter of elimination. There were about eight or ten [Americans soldiers]. It was just doing a job and it was over."

USGRANT64

09-27-2006, 11:33 AM

Some of your claims are highly debatable, the "ethnic clensing" part is plainly untrue. Destruction of "bourgeoisie" class somewhat true though. The Internationale, hymn of Stalin's Soviet Union does make reference to extermination of the "old world."

NKVD and Stalin were never convicted of any war crimes, unlike SS, which is not just "considered" criminal, it is criminal by international standards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale

Anyway, I do believe that even frail old men (SS,NKVD or whoever) should pay for their crimes even after many many years. There is no exparation on murder.

You should read the book "The Black Book of Communism" it goes into great detail about the crimes of the Soviet Union and others and not just with eyewitness accounts but documentary evidence as well.
The reason Soviet Crimes go unpunished is that their crimes are considered PC. The Nazis on the otherhand were anti-marxist and racist.
So there is nothing like the Wiesenthal Center or Wiener Library to document and persue Communist criminals.

CPL Trevoga

09-27-2006, 01:39 PM

You should read the book "The Black Book of Communism" it goes into great detail about the crimes of the Soviet Union and others and not just with eyewitness accounts but documentary evidence as well.
The reason Soviet Crimes go unpunished is that their crimes are considered PC. The Nazis on the otherhand were anti-marxist and racist.
So there is nothing like the Wiesenthal Center or Wiener Library to document and persue Communist criminals.

First of all "Black book" is just another propoganda piece created in the West. Nothing wrong with that, that's called information warfare. Secondly, Stalin's crimes weren't PC, it just it was done internaly to perceived enemies and who really cared if Stalin exterminated a few "enemies of the people." Well, nobody really.

Nazis on the other had went to conquer other countries and had a policy for extermination of certain people who lived there.

USGRANT64

09-27-2006, 01:55 PM

Here's the list of authors:

Stéphane Courtois is Director of Research at the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique (CNRS) in Paris, and editor of the journal Communisme.
Nicolas Werth is a researcher at the Institute for Contemporary History.
Jean-Louis Panné collaborated on the Dictionnaire biographique du mouvement ouvrier français.
Andrzej Paczkowski is Deputy Director and a professor at the Institute for Political Studies of the Polish Academy of Sciences.
Karel Bartosek is acting head of research at CNRS and the editor of the journal La nouvelle alternative.
Jean-Louis Margolin is a lecturer in history and coordinator of lectures at the University of Provence (http://www.up.univ-mrs.fr/) and a researcher at the Research Institute on Southeast Asia of CNRS

You will note that some on the list Courtois in particular are leftist historians.
The book does indeed document crimes. The soviets did indeed plan and commit a war of extermination:
The Kulaks
Ukrainian peasants
non-Bolshevik intellectuals
Religious minorities
etc...
Using your logic I'd say the charges against Soren Kam are leftist propaganda and are without any bases in fact. I'd go on to say the Holocaust in general is an invention of soviet and allied propaganda. Any book that says otherwise is mere propaganda.

Hunterhr

09-27-2006, 02:42 PM

Stalin's crimes weren't PC, it just it was done internaly to perceived enemies and who really cared if Stalin exterminated a few "enemies of the people." Well, nobody really.

Nazis on the other had went to conquer other countries and had a policy for extermination of certain people who lived there.

If by 'a few' you mean, 'a few million'.

CPL Trevoga

09-27-2006, 02:49 PM

Here's the list of authors:

Jean-Louis Margolin is a lecturer in history and coordinator of lectures at the University of Provence (http://www.up.univ-mrs.fr/) and a researcher at the Research Institute on Southeast Asia of CNRS

You will note that some on the list Courtois in particular are leftist historians.
The book does indeed document crimes. The soviets did indeed plan and commit a war of extermination:
The Kulaks
Ukrainian peasants
non-Bolshevik intellectuals
Religious minorities
etc...
Using your logic I'd say the charges against Soren Kam are leftist propaganda and are without any bases in fact. I'd go on to say the Holocaust in general is an invention of soviet and allied propaganda. Any book that says otherwise is mere propaganda.

Ok, don't care if they are "left" or "right" historians, it's not the point. There was never a plan to physically eliminate peasants and Kulak, but eliminate them as a class by forced collectivization. Large part of Soviet Russia's economy was agrarian at the time. If you killed all those people, who would work the land?

Religious minorities? Have you heard of "opium for the masses" Religion was systematically dismatled and removed from daily life as a policy. In their anti-religious fervour, churches were demolished etc, all according to Karl Marx communist building doctrine.

You can't really look at that time through our eyes, because it's all looks so horrible and unfair, but if you undertand that those times people were different and morals were different from ours. Life in general was much much harsher. Killing your enemies was not out of question. It was almost an abvious solution.

I'm not dismissing that some bad things did happend, especially during Stalin, because Purges did happend and many innocent were unjustly killed, it's that Stalin and following leadership did destroy much of data. We don't really know on how big of the scale it all happend. There is probobly a lot of good evidence in the Black book, it's just I believe it was info. warfare creation.

USGRANT64

09-27-2006, 03:29 PM

Does it matter to the victim if it was planned or not? I could here a dead Kulak saying to a dead Jew "well thank God mine was not planned!" The fact of the matter is that it was planned. The Soviet system was founded on the concept of totalitarianism i.e. the dictatorship of the proletariat. To acheive these aims they had to exterminate the opposition by using the apparatus of internal security. This pattern was followed everywhere Communism was established without exception. Contrary to popular myth the repression and mass murders did not begin with Stalin but with Lenin.
None of these could have happended without the aid of Communist hitmen big and small none of who have ever been held accountable for their crimes.
Regarding context of their times one can allow for the chaos of the fall of the Romanovs. But after the Bolsheviks were firmly in power this should have ended. It did not. The right to a person to have a fair trial is a basic human right applicable 80-years ago as it is today. Murder is a crime in 1920 as it is today. It should apply regardless of political philosophy.
Phil

But as I say this is just my opinion...

asch

09-27-2006, 06:56 PM

You will note that some on the list Courtois in particular are leftist historians.
The book does indeed document crimes. The soviets did indeed plan and commit a war of extermination:
The Kulaks
Ukrainian peasants
non-Bolshevik intellectuals
Religious minorities
etc...
1. kulaks. not a certain nationality, just peasants who have much more private property than others. iy's never was a goal to exterminate them physically, just a "redistribution" of property. so, this category is not fall into murder/genocide category.
2. Ukrainian peasants. so, you really think that bolsheviks want to destroy a class of people who backed them? i say, stupid management of non-professional government leads to femine, there is no "genocide".
3. non-Bolshevik intellectuals. that's really impressing. it's understandable that bolsheviks have most of important chairs in educational system as well as in other social/scientific institutes. but to say that they plans to "exterminate" non-Bolshevik intellectuals - that's just dumb. they always here all that ~60 years.
4. Religious minorities. my grandma as well as much more other people of her generation was very religious. from childhood. war versus religion - not a war versus people. Bolsheviks can not allow church to have political wealth (as it was through tzar times). so it was struggle for influence.
5. etc. - haha, there always some non-certain etc.

USGRANT64

09-27-2006, 08:59 PM

1. Kulaks.
Did they deserve to have their property taken, be imprisoned or killed?

2. Ukrainian peasants.

Did they deserve to have their property taken or imprisoned or killed? Did they have the option to appeal to a higher court to defend their rights and property? Before their property was taken were they properly represented in the government or had their legal case presented? No of course not. In any event starvation was not only the weapon, police and army units were used to ferret out Ukrainians who resisted collectivization. There is a charming picture from Russian archives in the “Black Book” of where the Bolsheviks set fire to a forest to burn out Ukrainian villagers.

3. Non-Bolshevik intellectuals.

The fact is if you did not toe the party line you faced imprisonment or death. Heard of Andre Sakharov?

4. Religious minorities. The Chechens were deported almost in their entirety because they were Moslem and refused to forsake their faith for Bolshevism.

5. Etc.

Like any totalitarian system it did not take much to make the “enemies list” Russia and the other former Communist states are only just now opening their archives to honest research. Russia unfortunately appears to be closing the doors. So we may never no the true extent of Bolshevik mass murder. Fortunately a few glimpses make it to the surface like the Katyn slaughter of Polish army officers.

In the west especially the USA you can visit the archives and see for your self each and every document showing all the things done wrong by the USA from the Indian genocide to the My Lai massacre in all its gory details.

The sad truth is the Communists were every bit as murderous as the Nazis. Ultimately, the Nazis did not have a monopoly on misery or death.

Phil

asch

09-27-2006, 10:59 PM

1. Kulaks.
Did they deserve to have their property taken, be imprisoned or killed?

welcome to real world. they was out of existing political-social system at those times.
2. Ukrainian peasants.

Did they deserve to have their property taken or imprisoned or killed? Did they have the option to appeal to a higher court to defend their rights and property? Before their property was taken were they properly represented in the government or had their legal case presented? No of course not. In any event starvation was not only the weapon, police and army units were used to ferret out Ukrainians who resisted collectivization. There is a charming picture from Russian archives in the “Black Book” of where the Bolsheviks set fire to a forest to burn out Ukrainian villagers.

and those Bolsheviks was foreign ones? i'm not saying that there is no crime, i just think that in "BlackBook" we have extremely biased point of view. without support of vast majority of Ukrainian population Ukraine was never joined USSR.
3. Non-Bolshevik intellectuals.

The fact is [bullshiт]if you did not toe the party line you faced imprisonment or death[/bullshiт]. Heard of Andre Sakharov?

same Sakharov who become a deputy of USSR High Soviet in 1989? so, in 1960s was times not as liberal as today, any country those times have a rough examples. try to see it in another way. my grandma was a school /institute teacher, not from CP, and fare well.
4. Religious minorities. The Chechens were deported almost in their entirety because they were Moslem and refused to forsake their faith for Bolshevism.
and other muslim nations (uzbeks, tajikis, kherghiz, etc)? some of them much larger than Chechens, just continue to living at their lands. so, consider it strange?

5. Etc.

Like any totalitarian system it did not take much to make the “enemies list” Russia and the other former Communist states are only just now opening their archives to honest research. Russia unfortunately appears to be closing the doors. So we may never no the true extent of Bolshevik mass murder.
although, it allows such grand speculations as BBoC. Fortunately a few glimpses make it to the surface like the Katyn slaughter of Polish army officers.

In the west especially the USA you can visit the archives and see for your self each and every document showing all the things done wrong by the USA from the Indian genocide to the My Lai massacre in all its gory details.

The sad truth is the Communists were every bit as murderous as the Nazis. Ultimately, the Nazis did not have a monopoly on misery or death.

i am not consider myself a "commie fanboy", i just see there almost laughable exaggerations, which is very far away from things from our family archives and my grandma/grandpa stories.

Phil

we have very polar points of view. i honestly think that truth somewhere in the middle.

USGRANT64

09-28-2006, 08:00 AM

When I was stationed in germany and met many an old person of the war years that said the "Die Hitler Zeit" was the happiest times of their lives, the holocaust did not happen or that the jews were rich and greedy and deserved what happend to them and all the Nazis did was make them "work hard".

Incidentaly my posts are not a personal attack on Russians or anyone else. This is an example of a heated discussion that does not result in flames or a personal attack (at least from my end it is not personal)

It seems to me that people pursue Nazi criminals not for reasons of justice but serves some other political ends. If they really want justice there are ten of thousands of non-Nazi/fascist war crminals roaming free and drawing a pension.

Pvt.Anderson

09-28-2006, 06:38 PM

When I was stationed in germany and met many an old person of the war years that said the "Die Hitler Zeit" was the happiest times of their lives, the holocaust did not happen or that the jews were rich and greedy and deserved what happend to them and all the Nazis did was make them "work hard".

man have you spoken to the honour gard Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler or where did you get those informations from .
I have spoken to at least 10 ( Heer soldiers ) and read / saw about 100 interviews of Heer units , which all were said that the war stole them the youth , that it was horrible and unnecessary .
the one there at min 16 approximately
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-636-3477/conflict_war/halton/

USGRANT64

09-28-2006, 07:03 PM

man have you spoken to the honour gard Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler or where did you get those informations from .
I have spoken to at least 10 ( Heer soldiers ) and read / saw about 100 interviews of Heer units , which all were said that the war stole them the youth , that it was horrible and unnecessary .
they are only an example
http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-636-3477/conflict_war/halton/

I have attended the reunions of a number of Heer and Waffen SS veterans and met my share of ex-HJ and regular civilians from the IIIrd Reich. Many share as you pointed out that the war was unnecessary. Honestly, I have never met an out and out Wehrmacht soldier regardless of the branch of service Heer, LW, or Marine I could say hated Hitler and the Nazis especially those that served from 1938. Most were bitter about loosing the war at such a terrible price. Memoirs I place little value in that they are for the most part self-serving (we were just ordinary soldiers and were not a Nazis). Try reading "Stuka Pilot" by Hans Ulrich Rudel or "Treason and Conspiracy Around Hitler" by General Remer (Heer). I would also suggest you read Omar Batov's "Hitler's Army." I do not agree completely with Bartov’s notion that all Wehrmacht men were Nazi killers but I do agree most supported the Nazi program. It was hard not to when every radio program, newspaper or magazine spewed pro-Hitler propaganda.
My point I was trying to make was that just because someone's grandparents say Soviet communism was a paradise does not make it so. As I mentioned there are many (but not all!) that look on with nostalgia for the Hitler Zeit.
So in conclusion I would state that I agree with you to a point.

Phil

P/S Your handle is “Private” which I am assuming means you are in the Army. If it the American army then thanks for serving!

Pvt.Anderson

09-29-2006, 08:02 AM

I have attended the reunions of a number of Heer and Waffen SS veterans and met my share of ex-HJ and regular civilians from the IIIrd Reich. Many share as you pointed out that the war was unnecessary. Honestly, I have never met an out and out Wehrmacht soldier regardless of the branch of service Heer, LW, or Marine I could say hated Hitler and the Nazis especially those that served from 1938. Most were bitter about loosing the war at such a terrible price. Memoirs I place little value in that they are for the most part self-serving (we were just ordinary soldiers and were not a Nazis). Try reading "Stuka Pilot" by Hans Ulrich Rudel or "Treason and Conspiracy Around Hitler" by General Remer (Heer). I would also suggest you read Omar Batov's "Hitler's Army." I do not agree completely with Bartov’s notion that all Wehrmacht men were Nazi killers but I do agree most supported the Nazi program. It was hard not to when every radio program, newspaper or magazine spewed pro-Hitler propaganda.
My point I was trying to make was that just because someone's grandparents say Soviet communism was a paradise does not make it so. As I mentioned there are many (but not all!) that look on with nostalgia for the Hitler Zeit.
So in conclusion I would state that I agree with you to a point.

Phil

P/S Your handle is “Private” which I am assuming means you are in the Army. If it the American army then thanks for serving!

First of all thanks for the books that I consider reading

No dude I thought u must have noticed that I am not really american by reading my entire post . I am a Kraut my wee self ;] , don't know how I came to this nick though , must have been some war movie or something similiar

ps: the capital of beer is SURELY not to find in the united states :)

USGRANT64

09-29-2006, 08:43 AM

You are correct. We would not know good beer if it came up and bit us in the arse. BTW I used to train with BW troops. It was much fun!
Back to history being that you live in Germany why are you not visitng the old boys and recording their memories? They are dying like flies now! Once they are gone their memories are lost forever! All it takes is a little time and a cheap tape recorder. I have done the same. I even have the memories of a Knights Cross Holder from Pz-Jaeger Abt. 1102 that resided in the USA since the 1960's.
Too many guys from the USA go over and interivew ex-Wehrmacht vets and ask them "What kind of collar patch did you wear?" Ugh!!!!
Good luck!
Phil

TR1

09-29-2006, 12:49 PM

funny, but I don't see any SS men arrested for Eastern front war crimes....which were far more common that in the west...

USGRANT64

09-29-2006, 01:07 PM

Hi Russian1
Here's a link to a dutch website about Nazi trials by the BRD and the DDR. They do indeed cover prosecution of Nazis that committed crimes in the east as well as the west.

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/JUNSVEng/JuNSV%20English%20homepage.htm

Cheers!
Phil

Groundhog

09-29-2006, 01:28 PM

The point is, murder is an inexcusable crime. Murderers should be punished as a warning that no matter how long ago it was... it was still WRONG.

The murderers of My Lai were never prosecuted and there names are on public record. It's still not too late.

Hunterhr

09-29-2006, 01:37 PM

funny, but I don't see any SS men arrested for Eastern front war crimes....which were far more common that in the west...

You need to do a bit more research.

Besides, there was a much lower survival rate among SS on the Eastern Front than on the Western. Nevermind the fact that a lot of SS never made it into captivity on the Eastern Front, unlike in the west.

TR1

09-29-2006, 02:22 PM

thanks for the info guys...regarding the surviving SS men on the east....

Snoshi

09-29-2006, 02:38 PM

lol...i love how nazi fanboys try to change the topic of the thread to "russian warcrimes".

TR1

09-29-2006, 07:17 PM

lol...i love how nazi fanboys try to change the topic of the thread to "russian warcrimes".

yeah...it is much easier to start blaming the NKVD for everything than actually face the facts about what the SS, in fact what the Wermacht as a whole did during the war.....

similar to people jumping on Israel's supposedly numerous crimes against Palestenians and the Lebanese when justifying Hezbollah rocket attacks....

Pvt.Anderson

09-29-2006, 07:41 PM

As I am sure you're meaning me , who else started to blame the NKVD first ?

Now I really have got to say that it's too sad you russians did not come over your past and arrest the NKVD criminals .

Second as i said at least 10 000 times i do not in any way legitimate and / or play down the warcrimes of the wehrmacht , but i have come over it you know

ps : nazi fanboys just shows your arrogance and zero knowledge i'm sorry
bye

Kilgor

09-29-2006, 07:55 PM

So pointing out crimes of the NKVD (which are still denied by russian fanboys) is somehow pro nazi ?

Both the NKVD and the SS were murdering totalitarian animals. And its as simple as that.

Hunterhr

09-29-2006, 08:56 PM

Both the NKVD and the SS were murdering totalitarian animals.

Ding ding ding. We pretty much have a winner.

Even if they weren't all quite murdering totalitarian animals, they fought to ensure that murdering totalitarian animals were kept in power.

asch

09-29-2006, 09:56 PM

hi Kilgor!! how your commie purging process? p-)

russian fanboys
yea, buddy, we ruskies love you too.

Both the NKVD and the SS were murdering totalitarian animals. And its as simple as that.
you don't seems to have ability to understand one simple fact. "Both the NKVD and the SS were" organizations, not people. at least NKVD purposes in beginning was connected to maintaining law and order, not people extermination.

So pointing out crimes of the NKVD (which are still denied by russian fanboys) is somehow pro nazi ? Pointing out crimes of the NKVD is somehow off this topic, genius.

Hunterhr

09-29-2006, 10:13 PM

you don't seems to have ability to understand one simple fact. "Both the NKVD and the SS were" organizations, not people. at least NKVD purposes in beginning was connected to maintaining law and order, not people extermination.

See my post about who those organizations kept in power.

Pvt.Anderson

09-30-2006, 06:28 AM

hi Kilgor!! how your commie purging process? p-)

yea, buddy, we ruskies love you too.

you don't seems to have ability to understand one simple fact. "Both the NKVD and the SS were" organizations, not people. at least NKVD purposes in beginning was connected to maintaining law and order, not people extermination.
Pointing out crimes of the NKVD is somehow off this topic, genius.

I wonder in which topic you guys would ever want to talk about this issue , you're always blaming the other side but you can't take any critics

By the way the SS was not found for killing people at first

Snoshi

09-30-2006, 09:09 AM

So pointing out crimes of the NKVD (which are still denied by russian fanboys) is somehow pro nazi ?

Both the NKVD and the SS were murdering totalitarian animals. And its as simple as that.

Read the topic name please. If you want to discuss NKVD's crimes then make your own topic, is it really that hard?

Thunder

09-30-2006, 10:28 AM

The point is, murder is an inexcusable crime. Murderers should be punished as a warning that no matter how long ago it was... it was still WRONG.
War itself should be an inexcusable crime. The term 'war crime' is loaded with hypocrisy. Allies bombing Dresden and killing 40,000 civilians in the process was alright, but an SS'er assassinating a journalist turns out to be a bigger sin. Not exactly objective, which a court of justice is supposed to be, is it?

A while ago I watched a documentary about a Dutch SS'er. He was only a kid (16 I believe) when he joined up - he was impressed by the German military might during the invasion. Little did he know he'd be rejected, ignored, spat on and treated as a traitor by everyone around him for the rest of his life (even though he didn't commit any 'war crimes'). I felt sorry for the old man to be honest.