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Geezah
09-22-2006, 10:41 AM
District still looking at teacher's case

A Stuart Middle School teacher won't be arrested for burning two American flags in his classroom because authorities said his students were not put at enough risk to warrant charges.

But teacher Dan Holden won't return to teaching until the Jefferson County school district decides whether he violated school rules with his unorthodox lesson on freedom of speech. He has been assigned to noninstructional duties.

A 98-page investigative file released yesterday by the Louisville Fire & Rescue arson squad found that Holden left the students with the burning flags while he went to get water to extinguish them.

"On two occasions, teacher set fire to combustible material (flag), allowing material to burn in garbage can and on desk, then left the classroom filled with students in an attempt to find water to put the fire out," the investigation concluded.

Both the commonwealth's and county attorney's offices reviewed the arson investigation and determined that criminal charges weren't warranted.

Bill Patteson, a spokesman for the county attorney's office, said the evidence failed to meet the standard for a charge of criminal wanton endangerment -- an act causing a significant risk of serious injury or death.

"Based on the evidence that we had, we could find neither of those elements present, (and) we could not recommend prosecution," he said.

Steve Tedder, a spokesman for Commonwealth's Attorney Dave Stengel, said his office also would not pursue criminal charges.

"The issues are with the policies and procedures of the school board, not with the criminal justice system," Tedder said.

Patrick Bissig, whose daughter was in Holden's class, agreed with the decision.

"I did not look for him to be prosecuted," he said. "He doesn't need to be fired. Reassigned? Perhaps. You dabble in sensitive areas when you burn a flag."

Although flag burning is constitutionally protected speech, the district hasn't decided whether Holden acted appropriately, said Lauren Roberts, a spokeswoman for Jefferson County Public Schools.

Holden hasn't commented publicly since he burned the flags.

Administrators said Holden told them he wasn't making a political statement, but rather was trying to provoke students to think about free speech, discuss it with their parents and write about it.

But the incident fueled a national uproar among parents and made headlines on CNN, The Drudge Report and elsewhere. The district was deluged with calls and e-mail messages.

Holden burned a flag in two classes, one with 30 students and another with 24 students.

The flags were about 18 inches by 12 inches with wooden poles. He lighted the cloth on each flag while holding it over a small metal trashcan, according to investigation documents.

Holden told school officials that he had wet paper towels surrounding the trashcan on his desk, but several students told investigators that Holden had to leave the classroom to get more water to put out the fire.

As part of the fire department's investigation, arson detectives questioned several of Holden's students, and school officials provided detectives written statements of what they saw.

One student told investigators that smoke from the fire made students cough.

"It was smokey (sic), cause I'm like allergic to smoke and the whole room was full of smoke and like I was coughing, a lot of people was coughing," the student said in a transcribed statement in the file.

Asked whether the fire was frightening, the student replied: "Not really. I just thought he could have dropped the flag and could have, you know, made the whole classroom on fire."

Link (http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060921/NEWS01/609210432)

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Deftoner
09-22-2006, 10:44 AM
Like wow....

americanbychoice
09-22-2006, 12:36 PM
... but if I wipe my ass crack with the holy book from a certain religion, can I still go with the "freedom of speech" angle?

And It's a f***ing Middle School! Why are you burning flags in a Middle School classroom to prove some dipsh!t point about free speech?

It's not like there aren't 100000 videos of people doing this "unique" and "interesting" act of flag burning... you really have to recreate some anti-America rally in the middle of a Middle School to prove a point that the speech you disagree with is equally protected by the First Amendment?

You're gonna change the damn world by burning American flags in front of pre-teens/early teens?

ice55
09-22-2006, 12:55 PM
I think there are enough other ways to educate middle school children about freedom of speech than burning your countries flag especially when there are young men and women dieing overseas for it.

This guy seems like a bit of a nut to me and I would not allow him to teach my kids.

Who the hell does not have water handy if he planned to burn the flag in the first place, especially the SECOND time. What a tool.

Will938
09-22-2006, 01:40 PM
So leaving a bunch of kids in a classroom with a fire isn't putting them at risk? I'll remember that.

Zoomie
09-22-2006, 01:42 PM
I'd hate to be there if he would of covered the Second Amendment. What's that? He wouldn't have covered it anyways? Bah!:cantbeli:

Ordie
09-22-2006, 02:40 PM
I have no issue with the flag burning.

However, this guy should be convicted for child endangerment and arson. Starting fires in classrooms is stupid.

Tielir999
09-22-2006, 03:16 PM
Now if he set the Koran on fire would he not get in trouble? or wiped his ass with it as americanbychoice said

americanbychoice
09-22-2006, 04:45 PM
To be fair, it could be the Torah or the Christian Gospels just as well as the Koran when I say "wipe my ass" with a holy book... in any case, would these things be okay?

Would it be legitimate dissent if I spit on a soldier? Or if I spit on a picture of Sgt 1st class Paul Ray Smith (http://www.army.mil/medalofhonor/smith/), or tore up a picture of Randy Shughart & Gary Gordon? Would it be reasonable for me to say that Shughart & Gordon got what fat bitch-ass American imperialists deserve while I tore a picture of them to pieces?

If I were a teacher, and said "Your parents are Nazi imperialists, and your country sucks the d!ck of corporate illuminatis, and your whole life will be suffering to make money for THE MAN", would this make sense?

In theory, I have no issue with flag burning either... but this is what, 11-14 year olds or something like that? Is this really a reasonable discussion for pre-teens in public school?

Or, what if I tried to preach the Word & proselytize in the classroom... why is this restricted speech, but when it comes to burning shiat in the classroom as part of class/indoctrination, burning a flag is okay?

What if they burned a Mexican flag in the classroom? What if they burned a Union Jack? What if they burned a flag with the word "Allah" on it? What if they burned the flag of the Vatican or the Pope's personal flag?

I still don't understand how this is a reasonable part of Middle School.

Lefty
09-22-2006, 07:48 PM
Who really gives a rat's ass about this? Chem teachers burn stuff all the time, flag burning is legal. Not the teacher's best choice of lesson plan, much better ways to get through with this topic, but reading the grammer of these students responses, anything to get them to learn would not be a tragic thing.

"In theory, I have no issue with flag burning either... but this is what, 11-14 year olds or something like that? Is this really a reasonable discussion for pre-teens in public school?"

Why shouldn't it be?

Zoomie
09-22-2006, 07:53 PM
Who really gives a rat's ass about this? Chem teachers burn stuff all the time...
In a Chemestry Lab, not a classroom.:cantbeli::slap::bash:

ryanb
09-22-2006, 08:31 PM
In a Chemestry Lab, not a classroom.:cantbeli::slap::bash:


In this case, not a significant difference between the two rooms. Now back on topic. This story hasn't really been that popular in Louisville. It was discussed for maybe a day and the majority of parents seemed to not be upset. It really suprised me when I read the responses from parents and members of the community. Obviously, their were a few people who were outraged that an American flag was burned, but most people just questioned his method of teaching his class the concept of freedom of speech. In my opinion, he should have gone outside or at least mailed a letter to the parents, schoolboard, principle, all the above, to let them know what he planned to do. He should have taken the common sense test before he burned the flag, but hindsight is always 20/20.

americanbychoice
09-22-2006, 09:07 PM
"In theory, I have no issue with flag burning either... but this is what, 11-14 year olds or something like that? Is this really a reasonable discussion for pre-teens in public school?"

Why shouldn't it be?
Hmmm... let's see.

They are barely into adolescence at that age, thus they lack the emotional/psychological maturity to approach this approach to the topic in a conscientiously self-aware & respectful manner... not with a flag burning in a trash can in front of them. Is that good enough of a reason?

Why give a rat's ass? Because there are other points of view in the world, and burning a flag in front of a classroom of younger children might not be a good way to ellicit different points of view?

Why is burning a flag okay, but not talking about God? Why shouldn't a *** ed teacher say that abortion is murder? Why shouldn't the finer points of Adolf Hitler & the Third Reich be part of a classroom's studies? Burning a Mexican flag, that would be okay in the classroom as well?

Mr.K
09-23-2006, 02:40 AM
well you see its socially acceptable to "offend" your kind. What the teacher did was irresponsable, and i would suspend him for a while. Its like the school teacher that used "nigga" in class and said it was ok.
Black people can use the N word, Jews can tell jokes to eachother about how cheap they are, etc.
While its not acceptable to offend a group that you don't belong to.
Try to wipe your ass with the Torah and i bet you'd be in a world of death threats over the phone, vandalizm, antisemite stamp and a bigarse lawsuit.
You don't need to talk about God in a public school, on you should give a class about the history of religion covering ALL reglions.
*** ed teachers should cover the whole subject on abortion and talk about the complications of women's fertility afterwards.
Adolf & Co. is not taught because it might put some people on wrong tracks. Or again you have to make a class about dictatorships and cover the whole subject.
But the public system cannot cover whole subjects they don't have time or money for that, so you cut everything up to politically correct basics.
No burning a flag that is not yours it really not ok, its a proof of xenophobia.
If you want to do it as a part of the class, at least do it outside where there is a lot of fresh air.

ren0312
09-23-2006, 04:50 AM
Well I think that in the first place, burning your own country's flag should be illegal.

XShipRider
09-23-2006, 09:24 AM
Interesting. If a student brings matches to school and gets caught with
them he is expelled. But a teacher is assigned "noninstructional duties"
for lighting a fire in the classroom. This tells you how powerful the
teachers' union truly is.

The argument will be; 1) there is fire in high school shop classes with
gas welders, arc welders, etc., 2) high school labs have burners for
experiments, 3) electronics class has an inordinate amount or arcing
and sparking on any given day. Bottom line: This idiot will get to keep
his job. The fact remains, this is not high school but that won't
enter into the argument.

No doubt the ACLU will step in. And so the indoctrination of our kids
continues.

Grumpy Bastard
09-23-2006, 09:47 AM
Well I think that in the first place, burning your own country's flag should be illegal.

So if you were freezing to death and needed some kindling you wouldn't use your nation's flag if it was the only thing available.

Or may be it just got a few oil stains on it you coulld wash out so you burn it instead of sending it to the landfill.....

I'm just teasing. :D

ren0312
09-23-2006, 12:55 PM
So if you were freezing to death and needed some kindling you wouldn't use your nation's flag if it was the only thing available.

Or may be it just got a few oil stains on it you coulld wash out so you burn it instead of sending it to the landfill.....

I'm just teasing. :D

Well I am sure that the circumstances of the Viet Nam flag burners and this teacher are less desperate than the one that you described, and they are not freezing to death, or in another type of life threatening situation, and besides, there are correct procedures to burn a flag with respect, and if a person is in the situation the you have described above, then I guess that he can be given a break.