Kurds. Should they get full independent home land? Or not?

[eugenlitwin]

Kurdistan (literally meaning "the land of Kurds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people)")[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan#_note-0#_note-0) (old: Koordistan, Curdistan, Kurdia, also in Kurdish: Kurdewarî) is the name of a geographic and cultural region (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_geography) in the Middle East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East), inhabited traditionally predominantly by the Kurds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds).
As a traditional ethnographic region, Kurdistan is generally held to include the contiguous regions in northern and northeastern Mesopotamia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia) with large Kurdish populations. According to Encyclopædia Britannica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclop%C3%A6dia_Britannica), Kurdistan is a mountainous region of Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey), Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran), Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq), and Syria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria), inhabited predominantly by Kurds including 27-28 million people in a 190,000 km² (74,000 sq. mi) area, while according to the Encyclopaedia of Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopaedia_of_Islam), it includes a 390,000 km² area. Others estimate as many as 40 million Kurds live in Kurdistan, which covers an area as big as France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France).
Larger parts of Kurdistan became a province of the Ottoman Empire. Following World War I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I) and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire), Kurds were promised an independent nation-state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation-state) in the 1920 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920)Treaty of Sèvres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_S%C3%A8vres). Turkish nationalists, however, rejected the terms of the treaty, and following the defeat of the Greek forces in the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_%281919-1922%29), the Treaty of Lausanne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne) was signed in 1923 in Turkey's favor. The larger area known as Turkish Kurdistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Kurdistan) or Northern Kurdistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Kurdistan) was given to Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey) and the rest was accepted as part of the British Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire) (except for Iranian Kurdistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Kurdistan), which at that time was part of Persia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persia)). Since that time Kurdish nationalists have continued to seek independence in an area including the region identified at Sèvres. However, the idea of an independent nation-state came to a halt when the surrounding countries joined to reject the independence of Kurdistan.
The Iraqi Kurdistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan) region and Kurdistan Province (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Province%2C_Iran) in Iran are officially acknowledged parts of Kurdistan. The Turkish and Syrian governments do not recognize their controlled parts of Kurdistan as a demographic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography) or geographic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography) region.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus)

[eugenlitwin]

Kurds in Iraq

Main articles: Iraqi Kurdistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan) and 1988 Anfal campaign (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_Anfal_campaign)
Kurds led by Mustafa Barzani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Barzani) were engaged in heavy fighting against successive Iraqi regimes from 1960 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960) to 1975 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975). In March 1970 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970), Iraq announced a peace plan providing for Kurdish autonomy. The plan was to be implemented in four years [35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-33#_note-33). However, at the same time, the Iraqi regime started an Arabization program in the oil rich regions of Kirkuk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkuk) and Khanaqin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanaqin)[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-34#_note-34). The peace agreement did not last long, and in 1974 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974), Iraqi government began a new offensive against the Kurds. Moreover in March 1975 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975), Iraq and Iran signed Algiers Pact according to which Iran cut supplies to Iraqi Kurds. Iraq started another wave of Arabization by moving Arabs to the oil fields in Kurdistan, particularly the ones around Kirkuk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkuk)[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-35#_note-35).Between 1975 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975) and 1978 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978), 200,000 Kurds were deported to other parts of Iraq[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-36#_note-36). During the Iran-Iraq War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War) in the 1980s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980s), the regime implemented anti-Kurdish policies and a de facto civil war broke out. Iraq was widely-condemned by the international community, but was never seriously punished for oppressive measures, such as mass murder of hundreds of thousands of civilians, wholesale destruction of thousands of villages and deportation of thousands of Kurds to southern and central Iraq. The campaign of Iraqi government against Kurds in 1988 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988) was called Anfal (Spoils of War). The Anfal attacks led to destruction of 2,000 villages and death of 300,000 Kurds [39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-37#_note-37).
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jalal_Talabani_Rumsfeld_Rice_Khalilzad.jpg)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jalal_Talabani_Rumsfeld_Rice_Khalilzad.jpg)
Jalal Talabani elected as president of Iraq meeting with U.S. officials in Baghdad, Iraq, on April 26, 2006.
After the Kurdish uprising in 1991 (Kurdish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_language):Raperîn, led by the PUK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotic_Union_of_Kurdistan) and KDP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Democratic_Party)), Iraqi troops recaptured the Kurdish areas, hundreds of thousand of Kurds fled to the borders. To alleviate the situation a "safe haven" was established by the Security Council. The autonomous Kurdish area was mainly controlled by the rival parties KDP and PUK. The Kurdish population welcomed the American-led invasion in 2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003). The area controlled by peshmerga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peshmerga) was expanded, and Kurds now have effective control in Kirkuk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkuk) and parts of Mosul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosul). By the beginning of 2006 the two Kurdish areas were merged into one unifed Kurdistan Region and by 2007 there will be a referendum in other Kurdish-inhabited regions of Iraq outside the KRG-controlled areas.
Kurds in Turkey

Main articles: Kurds in Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Turkey), Human rights in Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Turkey), and Kurdistan Workers Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Workers_Party)
the country. Modern Turkey's founder, Mustafa Kemal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk) (better known as Atatürk in Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language)), enacted a constitution 70 years ago which denied the existence of distinct ethnic groups like Kurds in Turkey. As a result, any expression by the Kurds (as well as other minorities in Turkey) of unique ethnic identity has been harshly repressed. Until 1991, the use of the Kurdish language — although widespread — was illegal. As a result of reforms inspired by the EU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EU), music, radio and television broadcasts in Kurdish are now allowed albeit with severe time restrictions (for example, radio broadcasts can be no longer than sixty minutes per day nor constitute more than five hours per week while television broadcasts are subject to even greater restrictions). Additionally, education in Kurdish is now permitted.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:The_short_cut_to_india_%281909%29._caffeeshop_in_diyarbakir.png)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:The_short_cut_to_india_%281909%29._caffeeshop_in_diyarbakir.png)
Coffee shop in Diyarbakır, 1909
Nevertheless, as late as 1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994), Leyla Zana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyla_Zana), the first female Kurdish representative in the Turkey's Parliament, was charged for separatist speech and sentenced to 15 years in prison. At her inauguration as an MP, she reportedly identified herself as a Kurd. Amnesty International (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesty_International) reported "She took the oath of loyalty in Turkish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language), as required by law, then added in Kurdish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish), 'I shall struggle so that the Kurdish and Turkish peoples may live together in a democratic framework.' Parliament erupted with shouts of 'Separatist', 'Terrorist', and 'Arrest her'"[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-38#_note-38).
The Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan (PKK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKK)), also known as KADEK and Kongra-Gel, is considered (by the US, EU and UK) a terrorist organization, dedicated to creating an independent Kurdish state in a territory (traditionally referred to as Kurdistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan)) that consists of parts of southeastern Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey), northeastern Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq), northeastern Syria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria) and northwestern Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran). It is an ethnic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_nationalism) secessionist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession) organization using force and threat of force against both civilian and military targets for the purpose of achieving its political goal.
Between 1984 and 1999 the PKK and the Turkish military engaged in open war, and much of the countryside in the southeast was depopulated, with Kurdish civilians moving to local defensible centers such as Diyarbakır (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyarbak%C4%B1r), Van (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van), and Şırnak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9E%C4%B1rnak), as well as to the cities of western Turkey and even to western Europe. The causes of the depopulation included PKK atrocities against Kurdish clans they could not control, the poverty of the southeast, and the Turkish state's military operations.[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-39#_note-39) Human Rights Watch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Watch) has documented many instances where the Turkish military forcibly evacuated villages, destroying houses and equipment to prevent the return of the inhabitants. An estimated 3,000 Kurdish villages in Turkey were virtually wiped from the map, representing the displacement of more than 378,000 people.[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-40#_note-40) [43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-41#_note-41) [44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-42#_note-42) [45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-43#_note-43)
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kurdish_people&action=edit&section=10)]
[/URL]Kurds in Iran

(http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Republic_of_Kurdistan_in_Mehabad.png)
Republic of Kurdistan, Mehabad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehabad) 1946
Main articles: Iranian Kurdistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Kurdistan) and History of the Kurds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Kurds)
The Kurds constitute approximately 7% of Iran's overall population. Some Iranian Kurds have resisted the Iranian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran) government's efforts, both before and after the revolution of 1979 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979), to assimilate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assimilate) them into the mainstream of national life and, along with their fellow Kurds in adjacent regions of Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq) and Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey), have sought either regional autonomy or the outright establishment of an independent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence) Kurdish state in the region [46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-44#_note-44).
During 19th and 20th centuries, successive Iranian governments have crushed Kurdish revolts led by Kurdish notables such as Shaikh Ubaidullah against Qajars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajars) in 1880 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1880) and Simko against Pahlavis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pahlavi) in 1920s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1920) [47] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-45#_note-45). The Republic of Mahabad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Mahabad) was established in Iran Kurdistan in 1946 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1946) (the second independent Kurdish state of the 20th century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_century), after the Republic of Ararat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ararat) in modern Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey)). After the military coup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_coup) in 1953 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953), Mohammad Reza Pahlavi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi) became more autocratic and suppressed most opposition including ethnic minorities such as Kurds. He also prohibited any Kurdish language instruction [48] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-46#_note-46). In recent years, intense fighting occurred between Kurds and the Iranian state between 1979 and 1982. In August 1979 the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Revolutionary_Guards_Corps) by order of Khomeini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khomeini), fought to reestablish government control in the Kurdish regions. As a result around 10,000 Kurds were killed [49] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-47#_note-47). Since 1983 the Iranian government has had control over the area which the Kurds inhabit [50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-48#_note-48). Frequent unrest and occasional military crackdown have also happened throughout the 1990s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990s) and even to the present [51] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-49#_note-49).
In Iran, Kurds express their cultural identity freely, but are denied the right of self-government or administration. Similar to other parts of Iran, membership of any non-governmental political party in Kurdistan could be punishable by persecution, imprisonment and even death. Kurdish human rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights) activists in Iran have been threatened by Iranian authorities in connection with their work. [52] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-50#_note-50) [53] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-51#_note-51) On July 9 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_9), 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005), after the killing of a Kurdish opposition activist, Shivan Qaderi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shivan_Qaderi) and two other Kurdish men by Iranian security forces in Mahabad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabad), for six weeks, riots and protests erupted in Kurdish towns and villages throughout Eastern Kurdistan, with scores killed and injured, and an untold number arrested without charge. The Iranian authorities also shut down several major Kurdish newspapers arresting reporters and editors. Among those was Roya Toloui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roya_Toloui), a woman's right activist and head of the Rasan Newspaper in Sine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanandaj), who was tortured for two months for her alleged affiliations with the organizing of peaceful protests throughout Kurdistan.[54] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-52#_note-52) According to the International Crisis Group (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Crisis_Group), Kurds, who live in the least developed part of Iran pose the most serious internal problem for Iran to resolve. It is argued that the success of the self-rule among Iraqi Kurds is affecting Iranian Kurds to demand for autonomy[55] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-53#_note-53).
[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kurdish_people&action=edit&section=11)]
Kurds in Syria

Main articles: [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds_in_Syria"]Kurds in Syria (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/) and Syrian Kurdistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Kurdistan)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Saladinstatue.JPG)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Saladinstatue.JPG)
A statue of Saladin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin) at the Damascus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus) citadel.
Kurds account for 10% of the population in Syria or about 1.9 million people[56] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-54#_note-54) making them the largest ethnic minority in the country. Kurds often speak Kurdish in public, unless all those present do not. Kurdish human rights activists are mistreated and persecuted.[57] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-55#_note-55) No political parties are allowed for any group, Kurdish or otherwise.
Techniques used to suppress the ethnic identity of Kurds in Syria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria) include various bans on the use of the Kurdish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_language) language, refusal to register children with Kurdish names, replacement of Kurdish place names with new names in Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic), prohibition of businesses that do not have Arabic names, not permitting Kurdish private schools, and the prohibition of books and other materials written in Kurdish.[58] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-56#_note-56) [59] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-57#_note-57) About 300,000 Kurds have been deprived of any social rights due to having been arbitrarily denied the right to Syrian nationality in violation of international law.[60] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-58#_note-58) [61] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-59#_note-59) These Kurds, who have no claim to a nationality other than Syrian, are literally trapped in Syria.[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-60#_note-60)
But according to some sources Syria is recently (February 2006) planning to grant citizenship to those 300,000 Kurds deprived citizenship living in the country.[63] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-61#_note-61)
On March 12, 2004, in days of clashes began at a stadium in Qamishli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qamishli), a largely Kurdish city in northeastern Syria, at least 30 people were killed and more than 160 were injured. The unrest spread to other Kurdish towns along the northern border with Turkey, and then to Damascus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus)

[Hellfish]

I wouldn't be suprised or upset if the Kurds broke away from Iraq, at least. They're the only group in Iraq that is taking active steps for their own reconstruction and they're the only ones with a stable political system.

[ed316]

Personally, I think so but realistically we have enough problems in the ME>

[Lov3ll]

Turkey will never give them part of Turkish land especially seen as how a lot of Kurdish terrorists are bombing turkey, personally I think they should be given there own country they've been **** on through history.

[Hellfish]

I wonder if a seperate Kurdistan in Iraq would ease Turkey's problems?

[ed316]

They wouldn't like it. Because the Kurds would control the oil.

[Hellfish]

At least the oil would be secure, unlike the current state of the Iraqi oil infrastructure.

[ed316]

Secure for us but Turkey wouldn't like the Kurds controling it.

[Greek soldier]

Turkey and Iran are working together to prevent any "Kurdistan". Otoh Kurdistan is a de facto reality. They've already raised the flag of Kurdistan in the Kirkuk and Mosul regions and all public buildings.

[Hellfish]

Why not? Turkey doesn't get a slice of the profits either way, unless the Kurds use a Turkish pipeline.

[ed316]

A wealthy Kurdistan would embolden the Kurds in Turkey.

[Hellfish]

Or might it attract the Kurds out of Turkey?

[ed316]

Don't they also view that as thier land too?

[signatory]

If they want fixed borders (they already got a decent authority and self-rule in iraq) then they just need to arrange that themselves.

Until they reform by cleaning out the dark elements in their culture and remove political oppression of minorities I sure as hell won't support such a move though.

[Hellfish]

Don't they also view that as thier land too?

They do, but I think they'd take what they could get.

[Greek soldier]

Or might it attract the Kurds out of Turkey?

It will open the Pandora's Box of the ethnic minorities that exist in Turkey

[fantomas]

I hope they get their own country. They are the only people there it seems that are trying to build a decent and stable society, and arent influenced by jihadists. I read an article by Christopher Hitchens about the Iraqi Kurds, a shining example of how the Middle East can come to be.

[ed316]

They do, but I think they'd take what they could get.

If they did broke away the Arabs in Iraq would start doing the same. Shia controls S. Iraq with alot of oil. Sunnis would be left with shyt.

[Hellfish]

If they did broke away the Arabs in Iraq would start doing the same. Shia controls S. Iraq with alot of oil. Sunnis would be left with shyt.

Is that a bad thing?

[ed316]

Is that a bad thing?


Don't know. We better come up with alternative fuel if we are going to let them break up.

[Hellfish]

Is that a bad thing?

[Switek]

Autonomy or confederation within existing states... Do not touch borders... unless new World War is going happen,

Autonomy or confederation is just maximum what they can get. But first Kurds should remove PPK or transform it and start talks with Ankara...

[eugenlitwin]

Do they have de facto independent state more then 10 years in Iraq with own army police government international airport?
Who can stop them to became independent state in iraq?
Shiia majority would be happy when Kurd left Iraq confederation - federation it makes them even more dominant in Iraq.
Sunni Arabs weaker much then Kurdistan economically politically etc.
I guess I would happened in first year of full Iraq independent.

[Ordie]

Its a matter of time. The Kurds in Iraq are moving ahead with or without Baghdad. They are building its infrastructure, direct commercial flights from Germany, schools and universities. They are flying its own flag and acting as a de facto independent state.

The Turks are concerned about the PKK and the Turkish Community in Iraq. The Baghdad government has already shut down the PKK offices.

Some sort of deal needs to be considered. EU Membership?, Trade pact? Cheap Oil? I don't know...

Oil is an issue, however people can't live without water. The Turks built dams in Southeastern Turkey that flow into the Tigress and Euphrates.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

yes, damned right they should, if the kosovarians get theirs and the bosnians got theirs with all of the albanian and turkish immigrants who had poured in...the kurds full well deserve their land

[Hunterhr]

Not yet at least. 'Kurdistan' has a nice amount of diplomatic pull with Turkey at the current moment.

[NewsMan]

Problem with Turkey is, they are afraid any independent Kurdish area in Iraq will embolden the terrorists in SE Turkey. That is why they are so against it. I was in Iraqi Kurdistan pre-war and the place was functioning better than many countries I've been in.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

No.

Once you start giving away land to minorities only problems can come of it. Even if the Kurds in Iraq are doing good. The flow on effect can/will be major.

You will then start seeing other minorities in other countries start clamouring at the bit for the same treatment.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

No.

Once you start giving away land to minorities only problems can come of it. Even if the Kurds in Iraq are doing good. The flow on effect can/will be major.

You will then start seeing other minorities in other countries start clamouring at the bit for the same treatment.

30-40 million in a region the size of france IS NOT a MINORITY!

[ren0312]

Well no, here in my country we also have problems with ethnic minorities demanding indepence, so it will be a massive pain in the neck if all of the ethnic minorities in the world were to demand indepence.

[ren0312]

30-40 million in a region the size of france IS NOT a MINORITY!

Well in their countreis they are minorties, if the EU think it is fine for countries to be Balkanized, it is fine, just do not force that opinion on others.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Sorry guys,

There is no chance for independent Kurdistan. I know this is your very much desire to have a puppy country in the region. But This engineered so-called country can not live without Turkey - Iran - Iraq. p-)

You must understand it is not easy to break Turkish influence in the region. If you want to built a puppy Kurdistan, so we must built up Turkmen state in the Iraq and tied to motherland Turkey. If you need more, than we must tie Ahizka Turks in Georgia, Bulgar Turks in Bulgaria, Kosova Turks in Albania, Macedonian Turks in Macedonia, Selanik Turks in Greece, Kirim Turks in Russia, Azeri Turks in Iran...

any more desire...:) yeah realpolitik.

On the other hand, you must reconsider how Turkish-USA relation harmed with Bush administration, it is not very good for you. It will take a time to refresh it.

if you want to talk about ethnicity, and want to play a game using ethnicity...then we must clearly into it.


- http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/karten/turk/turklm.htm
...

[khukuri]

yes, damned right they should, if the kosovarians get theirs and the bosnians got theirs with all of the albanian and turkish immigrants who had poured in...the kurds full well deserve their land


yes and the basque country should also be free, and northern irland... etc

[Vorian]

Selanik Turks in Greece There are no Turks in Greece since the population exchange,except in Thrace. Don't know about your other claims in Bulgaria,Iran etc

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

yes and the basque country should also be free, and northern irland... etc

N.I. yes if the majority pop. wants it, which they actually don't...basque um no f**k terrorists.

[khukuri]

N.I. yes if the majority pop. wants it, which they actually don't...basque um no f**k terrorists.

so youre basicly saying that said countries would min holding a referendum in theese parts?

[eugenlitwin]

From XVIII century Turkey is not a big player outside own borders.
Today In international relation Turkey is satellite USA politic. And it looks like USA and Israel want secure land in this unfriendly to west inflation region.
My country historical allay with turkey, but there is humanitarian aspect for me as well, Kurds we have been oppressed for many hundreds years, just because there are Kurds, and we see how they good they can govern self in north Iraq.

You must understand it is not easy to break Turkish influence in the region, so we must built up Turkmen state in the Iraq and tied to motherland Turkey. If you need more, than we must tie Ahizka Turks in Georgia, Bulgar Turks in Bulgaria, Kosova Turks in Albania, Macedonian Turks in Macedonia, Selanik Turks in Greece, Kirim Turks in Russia, Azeri Turks in Iran...

Why it is possible? I guess all those countries would pretty against it?

This engineered so-called country can not live without Turkey - Iran - Iraq.


Do´t you think that all those countries are not major players in international relations?

[alexucci99]

I'm not sure about you guys, but I can't help but wonder about the possibility of a Kurdish nation becoming the second "Israel"...

[thscott83]

If they did broke away the Arabs in Iraq would start doing the same. Shia controls S. Iraq with alot of oil. Sunnis would be left with shyt.

Is democratic-elected oppression an improvement over Apartheid-like minority rule? I would say so.

[eugenlitwin]

I'm not sure about you guys, but I can't help but wonder about the possibility of a Kurdish nation becoming the second "Israel"...
It is almost happened,
They are no other place in Iraq wher US and other foreign forces or just people can feel so safety…

http://antiwar.com/deliso/?articleid=1347 (http://antiwar.com/deliso/?articleid=1347)
The Kurds Go Their Own Way
Can freedom flower in Iraqi Kurdistan?
Michael J. Totten (michaeltotten.com)

There are no insurgents in Kurdistan. Nor are there any kidnappings. A hard internal border between the Kurds’ territory and the Arab-dominated center and south has been in place since the Kurdish uprising at the end of the 1991 Gulf War. Cars on the road heading north are stopped at a series of checkpoints. Questions are asked. ID cards are checked. Vehicles are searched and sometimes taken apart on the side of the road. Smugglers, insurgents, and terrorists who attempt to sneak into Kurdistan by crossing Iraq’s wilderness areas are ambushed by border patrols.
The second line of defense is the Kurds themselves. Out of desperate necessity, they have forged one of the most vigilant anti-terrorist communities in the world. Anyone who doesn’t speak Kurdish as their native language—and Iraq’s troublemakers overwhelmingly fall into this category—stands out among the general population. There is no friendly sea of the people, to borrow Mao’s formulation, that insurgents can freely swim in. Al Qaeda members who do manage to infiltrate the area are hunted down like rats. This conservative Muslim society does a better job rooting out and keeping out Islamist killers than the U.S. military can manage in the kinda sorta halfway “safe” Green Zone in Baghdad.
In a region where rule by reactionary clerics, gangster elites, and calcified military dictatorships is the norm, Iraqi Kurdistan is, by local standards, an open, liberal, and peaceful society. Its government is elected by a popular vote, competing political parties run their own newspapers, and the press is (mostly) free. Religion and the state are separate, and women can and do vote. The citizens here are tired of war, and they’re doing everything in their power to make their corner of the Middle East a normal, stable place where it’s safe to live, and to invest and build.
U.S. firms GM, Ford, Motorola, FedEx, air-conditioning giant Carrier, generator maker Cummins, and Secure Global Engineering all had booths. French firm Electrolux was there. Volkswagen sold cars inside; Daimler-Chrysler preferred the outdoor lot. Local companies hawked licensed services ranging from Western Union money transfers and Hitachi washing machines to Showtime television. The Trade Bank of Iraq was trumpeting a new deal with Visa that allowed Iraqis traveling abroad to have their statement recorded in Iraqi dinars when they returned home - a boost for the local currency and a convenience most of the developed world takes for granted.
http://www.krg.org/ (http://www.krg.org/)

[Greek soldier]

Note: Electrolux is a Swedish firm, not French.

[alexucci99]

thanks for that article...If it almost happened in the past, and seems like the right thing to do now, then I say that we go for it...at the absolute worst, it can show us that the Israeli small nation structure won't work, but, at the best, it can serve as a model for the rest of the area...and i think we can all agree that another smalll nation model would do wonders...

[mattnwnc03]

remember during the invasion phase of the war turkey theaten to invade if the kurds declared their independence. the only way it would be ok was u.s. special forces were in charge of their army

[LaoSexMachine]

Yes. I think an ethnicity with that much of a population should have thier own country.

[cinoeye]

Sorry guys,

There is no chance for independent Kurdistan. I know this is your very much desire to have a puppy country in the region. But This engineered so-called country can not live without Turkey - Iran - Iraq. p-)

You must understand it is not easy to break Turkish influence in the region. If you want to built a puppy Kurdistan, so we must built up Turkmen state in the Iraq and tied to motherland Turkey. If you need more, than we must tie Ahizka Turks in Georgia, Bulgar Turks in Bulgaria, Kosova Turks in Albania, Macedonian Turks in Macedonia, Selanik Turks in Greece, Kirim Turks in Russia, Azeri Turks in Iran...

any more desire...:) yeah realpolitik.

On the other hand, you must reconsider how Turkish-USA relation harmed with Bush administration, it is not very good for you. It will take a time to refresh it.

if you want to talk about ethnicity, and want to play a game using ethnicity...then we must clearly into it.


- http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/karten/turk/turklm.htm
...

Does this mean you are also against Kosovo independence?
How is that you are posting pictures of a NAZI Europe map with "great Albania" that includes Serbian Province of Kosovo?
DO you have same standars for inependece for each nation?
POsted by you here- http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92027-

http://www.geocities.com/ga57/albania/map7.jpg

[cinoeye]

BTW, what is the condition to give someone independence?
Population, history.....?
If it's a population, than we have numerous places all over the world that could gain independence right away.

So think about it.
Just this days people are making desition about Serbian province of Kosovo status.
It is clear that Albanians are majority.
It is also historical fact that province was never a state, but cenetar of Serbian state.
KOsovo ws not part of Serbia only during the Ottoman times and German occupation(see map above).
So what will be a consequence for the region and the world if Serbian Province of Kosovo gains independence?
WHat will happen in your country?
Quebek, Northern Ireland, Basica, Sardinia, Korsica

Think about it-
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/razno/kosovousrbiji.jpg
http://www.decani.org/galbania.gif

[LaoSexMachine]

Some how the Balkans reared it's head.

[cinoeye]

So you realy think, this is not connected?
Do you realy think that Kosovo independence based on pure ethnic majority will not influance some regions?
And some of those nationalitis have even historical right to seek independence?
Also, geographicly Balkans are not too far.
From Serbia to Iraq, just thru Bulgaria and Turkey;)
...just look at the map-
http://www.siue.edu/%7Estamari/middle_east_pol_2003.jpg

[cinoeye]

This is also interesting maps-


http://www.cogsci.ed.ac.uk/%7Esiamakr/Kurdish/map.jpg

[cinoeye]

http://www.fpif.org/selfdetermination/images/kurd-map_color_country-names.gif

[alexucci99]

great map, cinoeye, from that map, its definetely easy to understand Turkey's predicament...looks like Iran too might have some fallout if the state were to be created. I never realized that so many, distinct, possibly self-governing nationalities existed in that area...a huge problem might come about from opening the preverbial can of worms (i.e. those ethnic groups wanting the same) especially with Pakistan at a pivotal point for success in the middle east. I just had the privlege of hearing Julian Brazier(MP) speak at my school, The University of the South (a.k.a. Sewanee/the ****), and he gave the distinct british perspective on the whole situation over there. He made it clear that his opinion of the situation was to focus more on where there is hope, in Afghanistan and Pakistan (although I didnt entirely agree with his opinion that Iraq was a lost cause). He definetely supported Israel (although not Olmert and the latest Israeli offensive) and seemed to appreciate their model. I agree with him in that these ethnic groups can and might or might not do a good job of governing themselves, but then fall back into that logistical grey-area of how that is going to happen. My opinion is that these groups deserve their own concessions, but we should focus instead on the turmoil areas and see how the whole thing plays out. I know it must sound awful that we should just "drop" the other ethnic groups, but it might be necessary to consider these more indispensable regions before focusing on specific ethnic groups...

[Greek soldier]

Now that I saw the maps, I observed that "Kurdistan" will be the core propriator and supplier of water reserves in the ME region. The "War of the Waters" is coming closer.

[eugenlitwin]

BTW, what is the condition to give someone independence?
Population, history.....?
If it's a population, than we have numerous places all over the world that could gain independence right away.

So think about it.
Just this days people are making desition about Serbian province of Kosovo status.
It is clear that Albanians are majority.
It is also historical fact that province was never a state, but cenetar of Serbian state.
KOsovo ws not part of Serbia only during the Ottoman times and German occupation(see map above).
So what will be a consequence for the region and the world if Serbian Province of Kosovo gains independence?
WHat will happen in your country?
Quebek, Northern Ireland, Basica, Sardinia, Korsica

Think about it-
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b252/milanwviz/razno/kosovousrbiji.jpg
http://www.decani.org/galbania.gif
Actually all story around Kosovo is more like funny story,

Nation which has not any historical rights on Kosovo land, 100 years ago Albanians were tiny minority (10%).
then 100 years of good Muslim s.x and (today they majority).
10 years Milosevic oppression,
nato punished oppressors,
independent land.

Many many minority nations can just dreaming about it including Kurds in turkey…
Anyway in a 50 years same sh.t would happened in south of France, that s would be funny as well.

[Switek]

Mates, stop dreaming about changes of borders and creating new states... There is too much aterritorial ambitions and too less land to divide. The only real solution for Kourds and other minorities living in current sates the only acceptable solution is to find more or less political agreement of common cooexsistence. Is this authonomy, federation, confedereation i can't answer. It's a subject of political negotiantions and changes in constitutions and law systems. Any kind of greater authonomy calm down extremists. That's true.

[eugenlitwin]

Mates, stop dreaming about changes of borders and creating new states... There is too much aterritorial ambitions and too less land to divide. The only real solution for Kourds and other minorities living in current sates the only acceptable solution is to find more or less political agreement of common cooexsistence. Is this authonomy, federation, confedereation i can't answer. It's a subject of political negotiantions and changes in constitutions and law systems. Any kind of greater authonomy calm down extremists. That's true.

Pan
do you forget the times when Polacy</SPAN> had been oppressed minority?

[Switek]

Pan
do you forget the times when Polacy</SPAN> had been oppressed minority?

Well we had wait to Great War to make our dreams true... But we had our country before, none can deny it. Hm, I think that totay's world is quite different than this before 1918.... :)

[eugenlitwin]

Well we had wait to Great War to make our dreams true... But we had our country before, none can deny it. Hm, I think that totay's world is quite different than this before 1918.... :)

Don’t u think Kurds in Iraq had not wait to Great War to make they dreams true ?:)

I think that totay's world is quite different than this before 1918....
In which part of the world? Medal east?

But we had our country before, read better Kuds history…
czesc

[Switek]

Don’t u think Kurds in Iraq had not wait to Great War to make they dreams true ?:)

I think that totay's world is quite different than this before 1918....
In which part of the world? Medal east?

But we had our country before, read better Kuds history…
czesc

I'd like to see independent Kurdistan, why not? New state of happy people. But now is just dream... No one from US to Yemen or other small Arab country is interested to change current "dynamic equilibrium" in ME... Kurds are just element of this domino part...

Cześć :)

[Pvt.Anderson]

Sorry guys,

There is no chance for independent Kurdistan. I know this is your very much desire to have a puppy country in the region. But This engineered so-called country can not live without Turkey - Iran - Iraq. p-)

You must understand it is not easy to break Turkish influence in the region. If you want to built a puppy Kurdistan, so we must built up Turkmen state in the Iraq and tied to motherland Turkey. If you need more, than we must tie Ahizka Turks in Georgia, Bulgar Turks in Bulgaria, Kosova Turks in Albania, Macedonian Turks in Macedonia, Selanik Turks in Greece, Kirim Turks in Russia, Azeri Turks in Iran...

any more desire...:) yeah realpolitik.

On the other hand, you must reconsider how Turkish-USA relation harmed with Bush administration, it is not very good for you. It will take a time to refresh it.

if you want to talk about ethnicity, and want to play a game using ethnicity...then we must clearly into it.


- http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/karten/turk/turklm.htm
...


yes you must make a difference between the numbers of certain minotiries

The Kurds in Turkey make out approx. 20-30%

[eugenlitwin]

I'd like to see independent Kurdistan, why not? New state of happy people. But now is just dream... No one from US to Yemen or other small Arab country is interested to change current "dynamic equilibrium" in ME... Kurds are just element of this domino part...

Cześć :)
haw do think possible make Kurdistan “unindependent”? If even S Hussein failed…
No one from US to Yemen or other small Arab country
Am not sure about it
Israel http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5364982.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5364982.stm) and USA help them build up army and security forces; they defiantly would need independent Kurdistan in war against IRAN.

Look Iraq is not solid country anymore; it was build up as a Sunni-Arab state. other were something like biological balance. Sunni never would accepted “pagan-Shiia” domination in the holy land Iraq !!!
czescp-)

[Switek]

haw do think possible make Kurdistan “unindependent”? If even S Hussein failed…
No one from US to Yemen or other small Arab country
Am not sure about it
Israel http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5364982.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5364982.stm) and USA help them build up army and security forces; they defiantly would need independent Kurdistan in war against IRAN.

Look Iraq is not solid country anymore; it was build up as a Sunni-Arab state. other were something like biological balance. Sunni never would accepted “pagan-Shiia” domination in the holy land Iraq !!!
czescp-)

You've got the point... Without interest of US there is impossible to create independent Kurdistan. Even those Kurds who live in Northen Iraq are aware that support of US depend on the acceptace to remain within Iraqi state.

So far the most important player for Kurds is Turkey. Even with mass of current prblem Turkey is strong state with strong military capabilities and still military ally of US. There is impossible to change anything... I can imagine one scenario wchich can change it. Asume that Turkey change its political course and became Islamic state which withdraws from NATO and cuts off political ties with Washington... Then US maybe would support Kurds in Turkey. But this is just speculation from kinda "political fiction". Authonomy and creatind own political and social institutions is an only real way of developing Kurdish aspirations. In 10,20, 50 years all can change... but now? I try to think realistic

[eugenlitwin]

You've got the point... Without interest of US there is impossible to create independent Kurdistan. Even those Kurds who live in Northen Iraq are aware that support of US depend on the acceptace to remain within Iraqi state.

So far the most important player for Kurds is Turkey. Even with mass of current prblem Turkey is strong state with strong military capabilities and still military ally of US. There is impossible to change anything... I can imagine one scenario wchich can change it. Asume that Turkey change its political course and became Islamic state which withdraws from NATO and cuts off political ties with Washington... Then US maybe would support Kurds in Turkey. But this is just speculation from kinda "political fiction". Authonomy and creatind own political and social institutions is an only real way of developing Kurdish aspirations. In 10,20, 50 years all can change... but now? I try to think realistic

What do think about deal between EU and Turkey?
Something like you are not in before Kurds get territorial autonomy, something like Scotland Baskonia or Catalonia has.

[Switek]

What do think about deal between EU and Turkey?
Something like you are not in before Kurds get territorial autonomy, something like Scotland Baskonia or Catalonia has.

I think that's what Kurds can get and should get: own educational system, healthcare, own TV and radio stations may be own budget to develop local infrastruture... jobs in Police, Border Guard and so on. This is what EU (or many politician) says. 20 years ago out of range, just dream for Kurds but now can be real. Turkis Kurds in EU became a European citizens... within Turkey, whether they like it or not.

[muffhunter]

The best thing would be if the turks got a government that weren't so blinded by the irrational fears of turko-nationalism. A government that as a sign of good will could grant the kurds independence. Accordingly such a government could also settle the Cyprus conflict and give back the european part of their territory in the west to Greece.

Beyhold! A whole region of friendship! :)

As for Kosovo, Albania and other regions I believe the best long term solution would be to move all muselmanians out of Europe and into Turkey. Otherwise I'm afraid that this region due to it's history will remain instable and new conflicts will pop up with Serbia and other countries on a regular basis.

Those poor peoples need more trade and education and less irrational fears.

[Vorian]

As for Kosovo, Albania and other regions I believe the best long term solution would be to move all muselmanians out of Europe and into Turkey. Otherwise I'm afraid that this region due to it's history will remain instable and new conflicts will pop up with Serbia and other countries on a regular basis.

That's just racist. Wars existed in the Balkans long before Islam. And most Balkan wars were nationalistic not religious.


Those poor peoples need more trade and education and less irrational fears.

Agree about trade and education but it seems from your post that even more educated people still have irrational fears and prejudices.

[eugenlitwin]

I think that's what Kurds can get and should get: own educational system, healthcare, own TV and radio stations may be own budget to develop local infrastruture... jobs in Police, Border Guard and so on. This is what EU (or many politician) says. 20 years ago out of range, just dream for Kurds but now can be real. Turkis Kurds in EU became a European citizens... within Turkey, whether they like it or not.
Man this what is everyone in Europe want, but here is a problem turkey can accept only Culture autonomy to Kurds , not territorial as you wrote( own educational system, healthcare, own TV and radio stations may be own budget to develop local infrastruture... jobs in Police, Border Guard).
Let say green colure on the on map is autonomic republic Kurdistan
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/8126/kutdistanbd4.th.jpg (http://img181.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kutdistanbd4.jpg)

Kurdish Jews (Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): יהדות כורדיסתאן, "Jews of Kurdistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan)", Kurdish: Kurdên cû) are the ancient Jewish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew) communities inhabiting the region today known as Kurdistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan), roughly covering parts of Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq), Iran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran), Armenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia), and Syria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria). Their garb and culture is similar to neighbouring Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) Kurds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurds).
There is some evidence of very old bonds between Jewish People (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_People) and Kurds. Tradition holds that Jews first arrived in the area of modern Kurdistan after being captured by the Assyrian empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_empire) in Judah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judah) and relocated back to the capital of Assyria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria). The illustrious royal house of Adiabene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabene), with Arbil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbil) (Arbala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbil) in Aramaic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aramaic_language), Hewlêr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hewl%C3%AAr) in Kurdish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_language)) as its capital, was converted to Judaism in the course of the 1st century BC, along with, it appears, a large number of Kurdish citizens in the kingdom (see Irbil/Arbil in Encyclopaedia Judaica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopaedia_Judaica)). The name of the king Monobazes (related etymologically to the name of the ancient Mannaeans), his queen Helena, and his son and successor Izates (derived from yazata, "angel"), are preserved as the first proselytes of this royal house. (See "Brauer E., The Jews of Kurdistan, Wayne State University Press, Detroit, 1993" ,"Louis Ginzberg, The Legends of the Jews, 5th CD. Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1968,VI.412" and [1] (http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/kurds.html)).
Kurdish Christians are those Kurds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people) who adhere to Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) mostly inhabiting the region known as Kurdistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan). They should not be confused with other groups of Christians in the same region, the Assyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrians) and Armenians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians).
Some of those Kurdish Christians whose ancestors were Christian from ancient times speak Aramaic, the language of the Assyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrians), as first language. However in recent years and especially after the fall of the Saddam regime in Iraq there have been a significant but growing number of converts to Christianity among Kurdish speaking Muslim Kurds.

[cinoeye]

I know you all try to stay of "Balkan" topics or comments.

But just watch, Kosovo will gain independence, becuase world have double standards towards Serbia.
I don't want to go in it why, because you will tell me I talk BS.
But everyone who follows balkan related news will see that very clearly.
No new borders in X-yu, NO-No to Bosnian Serbs to separate from Bosnia.
But just 100 Km from that territory, world is preapering to give independence to Kosovo Albanians, just because they are majority and "Serbs are bad".
Just sit and watch how will Kosovo Independence spark big explosion in Macedonia, Bosnia, Kurdistan, Bascia................

I recently said that Kosovo didn't make much sense as an independent country. Let me follow up on that a little.
Kosovo will probably gain "conditional independence" sometime within the next 12 to 18 months, with full no-kidding independence coming some years later. Whether that's a good idea or not is another question. Let's just ask: what would an independent Kosovo look like?
I'll start by assuming that Kosovo won't be partitioned (although I think it should be).
Kosovo is a rough square or diamond about 100 km (60 miles) on a side. It has an area of about 10,000 sq km. In American terms, it's bigger than Delaware but smaller than Connecticut. By European standards, that's pretty small for a country, but not unheard of. Current EU members Luxembourg and Malta are smaller, and Cyprus is about the same size.
Kosovo's population is around 2 million, but this is very approximate. There hasn't been a proper census since 1991, and a lot has happened since then. (A new census is planned for next year.) The Albanian population's birth rate has been high -- very high, for Europe -- but on the other hand there's been a lot of emigration, both formal and informal. So nobody's really sure what the current population is.
The population is ethnically divided. Almost all of the Serb minority now lives in distinct enclaves. The biggest enclave is in the northern corner of the province, adjacent to Serbia. Perhaps 150,000 Serbs live there. Another 100,000 or so are scattered in "island" enclaves of settlement across the province.
The two major ethnic groups hate and distrust each other. There are a couple of municipalities where they manage to work together, but at the provincial level they mostly ignore each other. Serb representatives have been elected to the Parliament, but refuse to take their seats.
There are still incidents of Albanians shooting at or otherwise attacking Serbs and Roma. (The Albanians consider the Roma to have been junior partners to the Serbs. This is on top of the anti-Roma prejudices common to the region.) Serbs keep a very low profile outside of their enclaves.
Geographically, Kosovo is a plateau surrounded by mountains. There are no large rivers going in or out. There is a rail line that runs north into Serbia and south to Macedonia, but there is no rail connection into Albania. There are some decent two-lane paved roads, but no highways.
Kosovo is landlocked and does not have easy access to the sea.
The soil is good and there's plenty of agricultural potential. The province can easily produce surpluses of things like wheat, beef and milk. There's local wine (not that great) and local tobacco (very good). The hills and mountains are full of herdsmen and their flocks.
There are a number of large mines -- lead, zinc, nickel, silver. (The Trepca mine complex used to be the biggest base-metal mine in Europe.) There's plenty of lignite, soft brown coal.
There is a fair amount of industry scattered around -- a cement plant, a battery factory, things like that. Most of it is in pretty bad shape, though. Milosevic fired most of the Albanian miners and industrial workers, and then appointed cronies to run the plants. Most of them date from the Communist period and are suffering from 15 years of deferred maintenance.
The electrical infrastructure is in awful shape, with regular blackouts. Lack of reliable power is a major drag on the economy.
Kosovo's human resources aren't in great shape either. Milosevic deliberately and maliciously set out to cut the Albanian majority off from educational opportunities, and he had some success. Albanians were frozen out of the university system for nearly a decade, and mostly driven out of the high schools too. The Albanian set up their own, parallel educational system, but it was starved for funds. In part because of this, only about half the adult population has education beyond grade school.
The economy is not doing very well. Per capita income is around $1,200 per year. Even at PPP, it's only about $3,000. This puts Kosovo in a dead heat with Moldova for the title of "Poorest Country in Europe".
Economic growth soared after the 1999 war, but has flattened in the last year or so. Unemployment is around 40%. Roughly 35% of the population lives in poverty, with about 12% in "absolute" poverty.
Organized crime is a major problem. Corruption is very prevalent. Politics are fragmented and driven by clan and regional loyalties. The government has rapidly grown beyond the capacity of the tax base; it is heavily subsidized by grants from the international community.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

so youre basicly saying that said countries would min holding a referendum in theese parts?

? i dont understand the question...would they hold a referendum, im sure they would if thats what the majority of the populace wanted...but they do not, not in either of the regions you mentioned and the gov't is doing a fine job making sure the minority terrorists of those areas are punished.

[Clearday-TRForce]

eugenlitwin,


As we see you post funny things here. Keep up your good job posting irrelevant things. Kurdish Jews? what? Kurdistan? where?

Imagination musnt be so imagination. p-)



I'mOnlyHalfPolish

You insist on giving some percents and numbers about kurdish minorities of Mideast. What a deep love!!! :) Please try to give us Turkish minitories of Europe and in Mideast. So should we open new EuroTurkey state in EU, MidTurkey state in Mideast, Turkmenistan Turkey in Caucaus?

Kurdish people is minority in the different countries like Syria, Iraq, Iran, Turkey. So what? what is your real aim? divide and manage can not manageable and applicable for Turkey. No chance.

[Danik]

Kurds have been there for hundreds of years, Turkey's conquests are not final, the Kurds can demand independance, if Turkey wants to be democratic about it they can vote for it, As Assmadenjad suggested the arabs do in Israel, although Im not so sure he would be happy with results if Kurds in Iran did the same. Your comparison to Europe is irrelavant, as those immigrants are recent and are not original inhabitants. the Kurds have ruled that land for centuries and still do, they are occupied.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Kurds have been there for hundreds of years, Turkey's conquests are not final, the Kurds can demand independance, if Turkey wants to be democratic about it they can vote for it, As Assmadenjad suggested the arabs do in Israel, although Im not so sure he would be happy with results if Kurds in Iran did the same. Your comparison to Europe is irrelavant, as those immigrants are recent and are not original inhabitants. the Kurds have ruled that land for centuries and still do, they are occupied.


So? with your logic, give the independence of Latins and Spaniards into USA. This is our motherland. Do you know what are you talking,writing about Turkey? do you suppose you can take a lil. part of land of us. Never ever...Dont dream. You dont care kurds or others here, dont be tricky guy. You care energy routes, influence... You need to have taken some information about us.


the Kurds have ruled that land for centuries and still do

What have they ruled? The only rulers of this big geography is Ottomans and Persians...any more ruler here?

[eugenlitwin]

[quote=Clearday-TRForce;1949520]As we see you post funny things here. Keep up your good job posting irrelevant things. Kurdish Jews? what? Kurdistan? where?

Imagination musnt be so imagination. p-)


Do you mean give Turkish Gastarbeiters and illegal settlers status national minority? Do you think that this demand little bit too much?

Kurdish Jews

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_Jews

[Clearday-TRForce]

[quote=Clearday-TRForce;1949520]As we see you post funny things here. Keep up your good job posting irrelevant things. Kurdish Jews? what? Kurdistan? where?

Imagination musnt be so imagination. p-)


Do you mean give Turkish Gastarbeiters and illegal settlers status national minority? Do you think that this demand little bit too much?

Kurdish Jews

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_Jews




you are sweidish? ok...please lets start to divide your country into minorities...please..please...we need many minorities. Mate find yourself a different job. There is no chance for any country to take a lil.part of Turkey. It is tested many times. But no achieved.

On the other hand, how do you dare to write about sovereign country? who are you? what is your intention? whydo mods allow this guy to write trivia things here?


cheers.
CDTRF

[budgie]

A supervised partition of Iraq is pobably the only sensible solution at this stage. The Kurds have been practically independent for 15 years now anyway. The Shiites can have the South and the Sunnis can have Anbar and Tikrit and the west. Otherwise they're just gonna keep killing each other for a slice of the pie.

[eugenlitwin]

you are sweidish? ok...please lets start to divide your country into minorities...please..please...we need many minorities. Mate find yourself a different job. There is no chance for any country to take a lil.part of Turkey. It is tested many times. But no achieved.

Because turkey wants to go in EU, and you can like it or not but respect rights of minorities one of the basic rule in EU!

This sort of ”victory” over national minority unacceptable in modern Europe! We did it 300 hundreds years ago not today, today this behaviour we call genocide.


Between 1984 and 1999 the PKK and the Turkish military engaged in open war, and much of the countryside in the southeast was depopulated, with Kurdish civilians moving to local defensible centers such as Diyarbakır (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyarbak%C4%B1r), Van (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van), and Şırnak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9E%C4%B1rnak), as well as to the cities of western Turkey and even to western Europe. The causes of the depopulation included PKK atrocities against Kurdish clans they could not control, the poverty of the southeast, and the Turkish state's military operations.[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-41#_note-41) Human Rights Watch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Watch) has documented many instances where the Turkish military forcibly evacuated villages, destroying houses and equipment to prevent the return of the inhabitants. An estimated 3,000 Kurdish villages in Turkey were virtually wiped from the map, representing the displacement of more than 378,000 people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#Population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#Population)

Quote please lets start to divide your country into minorities...
we actually are not just gave minority groups culture and territorial autonomy we protect they traditional way of life (Sami people)

and please nobody here tray todivide your country, just help your country with reforms which are necessary.

[Atlantic Friend]

I think the point of whether to grant Kurds a homelands that actually corresponds to their present-day ethnic borders is moot. Turkey will NEVER accept to cede one quarter of its territory to create a nation that is bound to be hostile to it.

So Turkey won't, and with good reason. First, there isn't a single nation that would make such a devastating move if it was proposed the same kind of offer. And second, we'd have to weigh the advantage of a stable Kurdistan against the disadvantage of a destabilized and irate Turkey.

But could Turkey accept the formation of a Kurdistan that would only use formerly Iraqi territory ? Personally, I'm not sure they would, because that nation would be in and by itself a destabilizing factor for Turkey's eastern province.

[Clearday-TRForce]

you are sweidish? ok...please lets start to divide your country into minorities...please..please...we need many minorities. Mate find yourself a different job. There is no chance for any country to take a lil.part of Turkey. It is tested many times. But no achieved.

Because turkey wants to go in EU, and you can like it or not but respect rights of minorities one of the basic rule in EU!

This sort of ”victory” over national minority unacceptable in modern Europe! We did it 300 hundreds years ago not today, today this behaviour we call genocide.


Between 1984 and 1999 the PKK and the Turkish military engaged in open war, and much of the countryside in the southeast was depopulated, with Kurdish civilians moving to local defensible centers such as Diyarbakır (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyarbak%C4%B1r), Van (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van), and Şırnak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9E%C4%B1rnak), as well as to the cities of western Turkey and even to western Europe. The causes of the depopulation included PKK atrocities against Kurdish clans they could not control, the poverty of the southeast, and the Turkish state's military operations.[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#_note-41#_note-41) Human Rights Watch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Watch) has documented many instances where the Turkish military forcibly evacuated villages, destroying houses and equipment to prevent the return of the inhabitants. An estimated 3,000 Kurdish villages in Turkey were virtually wiped from the map, representing the displacement of more than 378,000 people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#Population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurd#Population)

Quote please lets start to divide your country into minorities...
we actually are not just gave minority groups culture and territorial autonomy we protect they traditional way of life (Sami people)

and please nobody here tray todivide your country, just help your country with reforms which are necessary.


The post is so confusing...and there is no clear message to anyone here. Europe needs reform too. Such as your finance sector takes underground moneys from different countries...

[Clearday-TRForce]

I think the point of whether to grant Kurds a homelands that actually corresponds to their present-day ethnic borders is moot. Turkey will NEVER accept to cede one quarter of its territory to create a nation that is bound to be hostile to it.

So Turkey won't, and with good reason. First, there isn't a single nation that would make such a devastating move if it was proposed the same kind of offer. And second, we'd have to weigh the advantage of a stable Kurdistan against the disadvantage of a destabilized and irate Turkey.

But could Turkey accept the formation of a Kurdistan that would only use formerly Iraqi territory ? Personally, I'm not sure they would, because that nation would be in and by itself a destabilizing factor for Turkey's eastern province.


Very good and understandable post (usually). There is no any country in the region threating Turkey in any form...If it is, it will quickly take its answer back.

250k special forces-infantries-mechanized-garrisons-air and naval forces are very ready to fight in the region with any country in the world to protect Turkish lands-interests-region people. p-)

[Atlantic Friend]

Clearday, what do you think would be the reaction on the Turkish street if Iraqi Kurds unilaterally, or even with American support, declared their independence but limited their land claims to Iraqi areas ?

The way I see it, it could go both ways. On the one hand it could serve as a way to defuse the situation in Eastern Turkey, but on the other hand it could also create a secessionist dynamic Turkey and the Near-East do not need.

[Clearday-TRForce]

Clearday, what do you think would be the reaction on the Turkish street if Iraqi Kurds unilaterally, or even with American support, declared their independence but limited their land claims to Iraqi areas ?

The way I see it, it could go both ways. On the one hand it could serve as a way to defuse the situation in Eastern Turkey, but on the other hand it could also create a secessionist dynamic Turkey and the Near-East do not need.


Actually, there is no option,opinion,something expected about a formation of independence Kurdistan and American support due to mass diplomatic and politic history with us. On the other hand, Turkey is already announced it will be a war issue if someone divides Iraq into small parts without common opinion both USA and Turkey with independent states. There can be autonomy,federation under Iraq state control but not more...

The more important and crucial issue is Iran and Russia. Why? coz Iran still try to built up close tights with Shiis, and Sunnies can easily want to be a part of Suudies, Kurds can not be alone without Turkey and USA support. If everyone look at carefully the map, the independent Kurdistan can not live without Turkey. So the best bill for Kurdistan is to sit there under Iraq state.

Usa can willingly want to have a Kurdistan due to they dont rule Turkey and Iran in the region, no any regional countries listen up USA desires. Such as Turkey rejected USA invasion from Turkish territories to N.Iraq area. It was unacceptable for USA. But it is real and no chance. The secret agenda is Russia-China control using Iranians in the region. And USA again dont want to see them and can not break Turkish-USA alliance for that reason. Kurdistan issue is a very very small problem of this region there are more other problems that we didnt write here. There is only one democratic and secular regime in the middle east-balkans...etc. How can someone suppose to reject Turkey? if USA loose Turkey, it will loose many things...

[Danik]

So? with your logic, give the independence of Latins and Spaniards into USA. This is our motherland. Do you know what are you talking,writing about Turkey? do you suppose you can take a lil. part of land of us. Never ever...Dont dream. You dont care kurds or others here, dont be tricky guy. You care energy routes, influence... You need to have taken some information about us.



What have they ruled? The only rulers of this big geography is Ottomans and Persians...any more ruler here?


I dont care about energy routes, I just want to spite and be a tricky guy to Turkey, because like all muslims states they are convinced that their conquests are final.

[cinoeye]

Clearday-TRForce, you still did not anwer.
What is your standing on Serbian province of Kosovo independence? vbmenu_register("postmenu_1950165", true);

[eugenlitwin]

[The post is so confusing...and there is no clear message to anyone here. Europe needs reform too. Such as your finance sector takes underground moneys from different countries


Massage is very clean for every one who belongs to Euro-Atlantic civilization…

Man special for you IN EUROPE WE RESPECT RIGHTS OF NATIONAL MINORITIES,
And if turkey wants to be in EU it has to do so or out.

PS and really want to know your opinion about independent Kosovo? it is could be interesting parallel with Kurdistan.

[Beykoz]

Clearday-TRForce, you still did not anwer.
What is your standing on Serbian province of Kosovo independence?
Clearday's view on the issue is irrelevant.
Turkish Republic opposes the idea of an independent Kosovo.



Kurdish people did not form a single government for as long as they profess to exist. I don't see this changing, especially if it involves claiming Turkish soil.

Dream on eugenie... I love the fact when they take refuge in European countries, they suddenly become civilised and talk about human rights while actively sponsoring PKK.

[Danik]

Clearday's view on the issue is irrelevant.
Turkish Republic opposes the idea of an independent Kosovo.



Kurdish people did not form a single government for as long as they profess to exist. I don't see this changing, especially if it involves claiming Turkish soil.

Dream on eugenie... I love the fact when they take refuge in European countries, they suddenly become civilised and talk about human rights while actively sponsoring PKK.

They were in pocession of the land for 5 thousand years, continously, in which they goverend themselves. After Arab invasion they had independent emirates, and in Turkish control they were still their own province.

[Beykoz]

Sure...
Feel free to point me towards a single Kurdish structure, emperor, historical text, or whatever they are proud of !

[Danik]

General questions, does turky have any religious or historical ties to that land, or at least do they currently hold some kind of large minority in the region , or is that land basically all Kurdish, and they speak Kurdish?

[Beykoz]

General answer :

The land you speak of is in Turkey's borders and inhabited by people of Kurdish and Turkish origin. It's part of Anatolia which holds a strong tie with the Turks. Technically, there is no Kurdish land to speak of at this point in time.

[Danik]

General answer :

The land you speak of is in Turkey's borders and inhabited by people of Kurdish and Turkish origin. It's part of Anatolia which holds a strong tie with the Turks. Technically, there is no Kurdish land to speak of at this point in time.

Not ubber-reliable source, but still refutes claim that they never ruled themselves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Kurds#Adiabene_Dynasty


I think Kurdistan is just one part of the Ottoman Empire that wanst seperatated, as it was promised. Now you can claim its yours. If the Kurds in Turkey dont want independence its fine, but obviously Iraqi Kurds do, and so to Syrian Kurds.

[Beykoz]

A lot was promised to a lot of people with the Sevres Treaty.
The fact is, Sevres Treaty is nothing more than a piece of paper that is superseded by The Lausanne Treaty and holds no merit.

[eugenlitwin]

Dream on eugenie... I love the fact when they take refuge in European countries, they suddenly become civilised and talk about human rights while actively sponsoring PKK.

First Eugen

Second

If majority Turks love a fact that people have run like a 1000 kilometres from home Where they have lived 5 000 years , to counters where they allowed to call self Kurds,

You all together can dream about EU 30 years more

[Clearday-TRForce]

Dream on eugenie... I love the fact when they take refuge in European countries, they suddenly become civilised and talk about human rights while actively sponsoring PKK.

First Eugen

Second

If majority Turks love a fact that people have run like a 1000 kilometres from home Where they have lived 5 000 years , to counters where they allowed to call self Kurds,

You all together can dream about EU 30 years more



thats great, we very much hope we will not enter EU (just we thought before) and easily be a part of Shangai Union. :) any more?

[eugenlitwin]

Kurdish mayors on trial in Turkey

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42130000/gif/_42130490_turkey_diyarbakir_map203.gif
Fifty-six Kurdish mayors have gone on trial in Turkey, charged with aiding and abetting a terrorist organisation.
They were indicted after writing to the Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen asking him not to close down Danish-based Kurdish Roj TV station.
The government in Ankara says the station is a mouthpiece for the outlawed Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK).
Mr Rasmussen has expressed his shock that such a trial could take place in a country seeking EU membership.
Outrage
Forty-five of the mayors attended the opening hearing in Diyarbakir, the largest city in Turkey's Kurdish-dominated south-east.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif I find it rather shocking... that because you write a letter to me, you are being accused of violating the law http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif


Anders Fogh Rasmussen
Danish PM



They are charged by state prosecutors with "knowingly and willingly" helping Kurdish rebels.
The mayors - all members of the pro-Kurdish Democratic Society Party - face up to 15 years in prison each if found guilty.
Mr Rasmussen expressed his outrage over the indictment of the mayors earlier this year:
"I find it rather shocking... that because you write a letter to me, you are being accused of violating the law," he told the Danish media in June.
"It is shocking that it can take place in a country which is seeking EU membership," Mr Rasmussen.
Despite strong pressure from Ankara to revoke Roj TV's licence, the Danish government has refused to do so, citing freedom of speech.
Turkey - as well as the EU and the US - views the PKK as a terrorist organisation.
The PKK implemented a five-year unilateral ceasefire after its leader Abdullah Ocalan was arrested in 1999, but resumed armed activities in 2004. After Abdullah Ocalan's arrest it also dropped its demands for an independent Kurdish state, calling instead for Ankara to open a political dialogue, increase cultural rights for Kurds and release imprisoned PKK members. But Ankara has so far ignored all such calls.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5380986.stm

[eugenlitwin]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5380986.stm

Kurdish mayors on trial in Turkey

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42130000/gif/_42130490_turkey_diyarbakir_map203.gif
Fifty-six Kurdish mayors have gone on trial in Turkey, charged with aiding and abetting a terrorist organisation.
They were indicted after writing to the Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen asking him not to close down Danish-based Kurdish Roj TV station.
The government in Ankara says the station is a mouthpiece for the outlawed Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK).
Mr Rasmussen has expressed his shock that such a trial could take place in a country seeking EU membership.
Outrage
Forty-five of the mayors attended the opening hearing in Diyarbakir, the largest city in Turkey's Kurdish-dominated south-east.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif I find it rather shocking... that because you write a letter to me, you are being accused of violating the law http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif


Anders Fogh Rasmussen
Danish PM



They are charged by state prosecutors with "knowingly and willingly" helping Kurdish rebels.
The mayors - all members of the pro-Kurdish Democratic Society Party - face up to 15 years in prison each if found guilty.
Mr Rasmussen expressed his outrage over the indictment of the mayors earlier this year:
"I find it rather shocking... that because you write a letter to me, you are being accused of violating the law," he told the Danish media in June.
"It is shocking that it can take place in a country which is seeking EU membership," Mr Rasmussen.
Despite strong pressure from Ankara to revoke Roj TV's licence, the Danish government has refused to do so, citing freedom of speech.
Turkey - as well as the EU and the US - views the PKK as a terrorist organisation.
The PKK implemented a five-year unilateral ceasefire after its leader Abdullah Ocalan was arrested in 1999, but resumed armed activities in 2004. After Abdullah Ocalan's arrest it also dropped its demands for an independent Kurdish state, calling instead for Ankara to open a political dialogue, increase cultural rights for Kurds and release imprisoned PKK members. But Ankara has so far ignored all such calls.

[Clearday-TRForce]

eugenlitwin, are you Kurdish? swedish kurdish? pro-kurdish? why do you post irrelevant things? could you tell me your minorities,ethnic structures? Such as France-Germany-Belgium has more ethnical minorities than us. Such as Greece!!! Albanians numbers are over 1 million in 10 mil. Greece.? so? why dont you post these minorities news here?

mate find yourself a real job, stop that trivia things. p-)