Anti-War = Pro-Hizballah [Archive]

budgie

09-25-2006, 08:51 AM

Damn LIberals.

The guys on the top look like Hezbollah supporters more than liberals and the guys on the bottom are obviously communists not libs. Get your labels right.

As for anti-war sentiment immediately equating to pro-Hezbollah zietgeist well, let's examine that using my own, rather typical leftie feelings on the 'war'.

I was against the Israeli attack on Lebanon simply because it would achieve nothing apart from unnecessary death and destruction. Peaceful negotiations would have led to te release of those captured soldiers. After the failure of an armed apporach (and lots of unnecessary death and destruction) the different sides are turning to peaceful negotiation. So that theory has been bourne out. there was no need for the ugly middle-man of armed conflict.

Does that mean I support Hezbollah? No. I'd like them to recognize Israel and renounce armed conflict, give up their arms and hand security and control of southern Lebanon over to the government. Looks like I'm an unapologetic terrorist sympathizer, huh?

dangerclose

09-25-2006, 09:13 AM

The guys on the top look like Hezbollah supporters more than liberals and the guys on the bottom are obviously communists not libs. Get your labels right.

Communists are just liberals in a hurry. And liberals do not routinely defend and even fawn over communist dictators right?

dangerclose

09-25-2006, 09:17 AM

Im not necessarily pro-hizballah, but I do like the underdogs.

Ironically, they are the David vs the Israeli Goliath.

Al-qaeda are the underdogs against the U.S.

budgie

09-25-2006, 09:23 AM

Communists are just liberals in a hurry. And liberals do not routinely defend and even fawn over communist dictators right?

Oh I see it's all clear to me now. Your PHD in Political Science is in the mail. Or, if you are in a hurry, you can find one at the bottom of your cornflake box...

jojo

09-25-2006, 09:27 AM

The guys on the top look like Hezbollah supporters more than liberals and the guys on the bottom are obviously communists not libs. Get your labels right.

As for anti-war sentiment immediately equating to pro-Hezbollah zietgeist well, let's examine that using my own, rather typical leftie feelings on the 'war'.

I was against the Israeli attack on Lebanon simply because it would achieve nothing apart from unnecessary death and destruction. Peaceful negotiations would have led to te release of those captured soldiers. After the failure of an armed apporach (and lots of unnecessary death and destruction) the different sides are turning to peaceful negotiation. So that theory has been bourne out. there was no need for the ugly middle-man of armed conflict.

Does that mean I support Hezbollah? No. I'd like them to recognize Israel and renounce armed conflict, give up their arms and hand security and control of southern Lebanon over to the government. Looks like I'm an unapologetic terrorist sympathizer, huh?
The trouble with "peaceful negotiations" in order to effect the release of those Israeli soldiers held by Hezbollah is that Hezbollah have been down the road of "hostages for prisoners" before, and had Israel surrendered yet again then the whole process would only repeat and repeat. Also to consider is the fact that Israel was under almost daily rocket attack by the terrorists, from Lebanese territory. I'm not saying that the Israelis were either right or wrong in invading, but from their perspective it probably felt as if they had no other choice.

a_very_ex_STAB

09-25-2006, 09:29 AM

Communists are just liberals in a hurry.

Please explain what you actually mean by this 'soundbite'? Did you hear it on a talk show?

dangerclose

09-25-2006, 09:29 AM

Oh I see it's all clear to me now. Your PHD in Political Science is in the mail. Or, if you are in a hurry, you can find one at the bottom of your cornflake box...

Yeah, liberals and communists do not share the same ideals whatsoever.

a_very_ex_STAB

09-25-2006, 09:31 AM

Yeah, liberals and communists do not share the same ideals whatsoever.

What - you mean like Conservatards and Fascists?

dangerclose

09-25-2006, 09:34 AM

Please explain what you actually mean by this 'soundbite'? Did you hear it on a talk show?

Does it really have to be spelled out for you? What about healthcare for all and redistribution of wealth that liberals have collective orgasms over?

Cuba is a socialist paradise and liberals admire a communist dictator like Castro who can push forward the socialist programs they believe in without having to answer to an electorate.

budgie

09-25-2006, 09:35 AM

The trouble with "peaceful negotiations" in order to effect the release of those Israeli soldiers held by Hezbollah is that Hezbollah have been down the road of "hostages for prisoners" before, and had Israel surrendered yet again then the whole process would only repeat and repeat. Also to consider is the fact that Israel was under almost daily rocket attack by the terrorists, from Lebanese territory. I'm not saying that the Israelis were either right or wrong in invading, but from their perspective it probably felt as if they had no other choice.

Negotiation is not surrender.

Ruledbyjames

09-25-2006, 09:40 AM

People always love making Israel/America the enemy. You see posters saying "boycott Israeli goods", I think I should go and f*cking boycott Iranian and Syrain goods for suppling cash and weapons that terror group.

I cant wait for the day someone decides to boycott American goods. It will be a very expensive and boring life they will lead!

That retard should be banged up for inciting hatred because I havent met him and I already want to punch his face through the back of his head!

a_very_ex_STAB

09-25-2006, 09:48 AM

Does it really have to be spelled out for you? What about healthcare for all and redistribution of wealth that liberals have collective orgasms over?

Cuba is a socialist paradise and liberals admire a communist dictator like Castro who can push forward the socialist programs they believe in without having to answer to an electorate.

No you just think that's what they want because you've been brainwashed:roll:

dangerclose

09-25-2006, 09:59 AM

Negotiation is not surrender.

Hey it worked for Neville Chamberlain.

a_very_ex_STAB

09-25-2006, 10:37 AM

Hey it worked for Neville Chamberlain.

Interesting attempt to divert the topic onto something irrelevant when you get into trouble ;-)
History lesson for you - Neville Chamberlain declared war on Nazi Germany not the other way round :roll:

Mr.K

09-25-2006, 02:28 PM

I cant wait for the day someone decides to boycott American goods. It will be a very expensive and boring life they will lead!

That retard should be banged up for inciting hatred because I havent met him and I already want to punch his face through the back of his head!

What american goods? Most of the everyday items you use are made in Asia.
The american automotive industry is in deep s... , boycotted by its own american consumers

Boycot Israeli goods? Except kosher food and "Infected Mushroom" i have yet to see Israeli products avaliable for mass consumption, and its not like the non-jewish polulation is the main consumer.
Have you seen Iranian or Syrian goods? How are you gonna boycott these when there is none avaliable on the north american market.
Boycotts don't go well, remeber Boycot frech goods? I'm sure you boycoted christian dior,chanel,louis vuitton, and renault which before you consumed on a daily basis rofl

Ohhh I know, lets boycot the Abrahams tank and the F-22!rofl

ed316

09-25-2006, 02:33 PM

Made in Asia for Western/American companies.

Jobu

09-25-2006, 02:39 PM

GiladS

09-25-2006, 02:43 PM

Boycot Israeli goods? Except kosher food and "Infected Mushroom" i have yet to see Israeli products avaliable for mass consumption, and its not like the non-jewish polulation is the main consumer.

The microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel... ;)

Meldon

09-25-2006, 02:49 PM

Hezbollah declared war on Israel by crossing the border, killing 3 soldiers, and taking 2 others hostage all while launching rockets across the border.

The proper response to war was war, not negotiation.

Israël did cross the border frequently and it was not supposed to be a declaration of war, Israël did bomb the south of Lebanon killing numerous people for a long time (most of the 261 finul dead soldiers for example) and it was not supposed to be a declaration of war. The situation was not so simple that it was presented in all the medias. I'm not sure there was a proper response in fact... I hope that it would be better for everybody now.

PS: I wonder if he knows what is written on his t-shirt. :roll:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060923StoptheWar01.jpg

Mr.K

09-25-2006, 02:52 PM

The microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel... ;)
I doubt it, maybe developped in Israel but definitly made in asia, and sold by an asian company called Acer.
No one will ever boycott technology, hi-tech developments are sold to corporations for who the priority is making profit not burning flags.
Do you think a palestinian shoemaker or a shepperd will actually do a seach about who created the processor.

loganinkosovo

09-25-2006, 03:00 PM

PS: I wonder if he knows what is written on his t-shirt. :roll:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060923StoptheWar01.jpg

No. He's just a useful idiot who will be tortured, gang raped, and thrown to the Lions when his Islamo-Fascist Terrorist Friends control the world.

Nimrods like this are poster-children for Abortion.

:roll:

jojo

09-25-2006, 03:03 PM

Negotiation is not surrender.
Yes it is if every time you "negotiate" with these people you come out second-best, being forced to release hundreds of prisoners for "just" a couple of your own people. And anyway, it was originally an act of war -- or terrorism if you prefer -- which brought about this situation. Also, Hizbollah were literally holding a gun to the heads of the hostages. Is that "negotiation"? Sounds more like blackmail to me. And as I said in my post Hizbollah have done this before. Where do you draw the line? Do you give in yet again thereby encouraging the terrorists to repeat the whole process over and over? Surely, at some point you have to say "enough is enough". And this, I believe, is what happened. Israel had had enough.

loganinkosovo

09-25-2006, 03:11 PM

From Little Green Footballs:

It's so sad, it's nearly funny.

Ever notice that these things are shot to look like there are a lot of people in these things but if you really look at the photos there are about 20 to 25 people and the same 20-25 people in every shot?

Fu@king Liberal Monkey A$$ed Media Whores!

They couldn't tell the truth about anything if their lives depended on it!

Their turn-outs are so low in the States now they have to bus Communist DipSh!t useful Idiots in from Canada!

:)

Mr.K

09-25-2006, 03:43 PM

Ever notice that these things are shot to look like there are a lot of people in these things but if you really look at the photos there are about 20 to 25 people and the same 20-25 people in every shot?

:)

Just like with the Saddam's statue falling down. Its not the "liberal media
its "sensationlaist" media.

WARPIG

09-25-2006, 03:52 PM

Im not necessarily pro-hizballah, but I do like the underdogs.

Ironically, they are the David vs the Israeli Goliath.

Further proof that Japanimation rots the mind. If this were a Saturday morning cartoon or some sports event.. I would agree with you. But since the death toll includes a hell of a lot of non-combatants and the ripple effect is felt world wide (well apparently not completely) I would say I am pulling for Israelis and Palestinians.

Cedan

09-25-2006, 04:08 PM

PS: I wonder if he knows what is written on his t-shirt. :roll:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060923StoptheWar01.jpg

what does it say?

Meldon

09-25-2006, 04:27 PM

what does it say?

فإن حزب الله هم الغالبون

lol

It is from the Coran : "Then surely the party of Allah are they that shall be triumphant" is the english translation (in french : car c'est le parti de Dieu qui sera victorieux )

Hunterhr

09-25-2006, 04:37 PM

what does it say?

"I bought this T-shirt in a pathetic attempt to bang a hippy chick" would probably be too much to ask.

Danik

09-25-2006, 04:59 PM

DUH if they're waving communist flags it's a fairly obvious clue that they're not liberals :roll:

In the US of A the far left, aka liberals, are associated with communists. Where as the far-right, are associated with facism.

dangerclose

09-25-2006, 05:08 PM

In the US of A the far left, aka liberals, are associated with communists. Where as the far-right, are associated with facism.

fas·cism: A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Excluding maybe the racism, that definition fits Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, Chavez et. al.

A communist is a fascist.

Danik

09-25-2006, 05:11 PM

fas·cism: A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

Excluding maybe the racism, that definition fits Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, Chavez et. al.

A communist is a fascist.

I know. Im stating that in the US communism is associated with the far left "liberals". or rather they themselves have associated with communism. If you suggesting that their idiots for connecting liberalism and communism, then go talk to them, as you can observe being pro-hezbollah also means being anti-war in their circle.

Hollis

09-25-2006, 05:13 PM

"Originally Posted by Steel21 http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1949753#post1949753) Im not necessarily pro-hizballah, but I do like the underdogs.

Ironically, they are the David vs the Israeli Goliath."

Steele, Hezbullah are proxies of the Iran, 68 Million people opposed to the 7 Million in Israel.

Hezbullah is completely supplied by Iran, except for uniforms and Iran's Flag.

Maybe you got it all backwards, as to who is David and who is Golith.

Jobu

09-25-2006, 05:14 PM

"Liberals" in the USA really means socialists/communists or their sympathizers. People like Danny Glover or Hilary Clinton fit this description.

The old definition really doesn't hold anymore.

Moledet

09-25-2006, 05:15 PM

I think there was a large anti-hizballah protest in Lebanon a few days ago.

BTW, a smart shiite mufti:
http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1273.

Danik

09-25-2006, 05:24 PM

I think there was a large anti-hizballah protest in Lebanon a few days ago.

BTW, a smart shiite mufti:
http://www.memritv.org/search.asp?ACT=S9&P1=1273.

Well he knows they did not win, what hes saying though isnt all that flattering, hes more condeming hezballah on the principle of "if your gonna do it, do it right" That is defeat Israel, not get Lebanon bombed. So in the regard of understanding that they hold no victory, he is correct. Also good that thousand came to anti-hezballah rally, the news didnt really cover it though.

Meldon

09-25-2006, 05:29 PM

I think there was a large anti-hizballah protest in Lebanon a few days ago.

Reading the Lebanese press (Daily Star (http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=75687) or L'Orient Le jour (http://www.lorientlejour.com/)) is really interesting, Hezb is not Lebanon.

Cedan

09-25-2006, 05:29 PM

jojo

09-25-2006, 05:41 PM

Too pissed to read all the posts on this thread but in the UK we've seen all these people before -- anti-war, ban the bomb, ban-everything-else-unless-we-agree-with-it types. Throw in a few Muslim "apologists" and there you have it. Please do not conclude that these ****-heads are in any way representative of the British people.

mailmannz

09-25-2006, 05:58 PM

more like pro-resitance. The definition of "resistance" is very vast.

Remind me again what exactly Hisbulla are resisting?

Could it be the same thing that those f8ckers who are detonating in markets and schools and when surrounded by children in Iraq are resisting?

Mailman

Mr.K

09-25-2006, 06:10 PM

A communist is a fascist.

communists are not racists or nationalist, read the manifesto to see why

Remind me again what exactly Hisbulla are resisting?

Could it be the same thing that those f8ckers who are detonating in markets and schools and when surrounded by children in Iraq are resisting?

Mailman

There are not the same f8ckers, there is less "support" between them that you could possibly think.
Hizballah are fighting agaisnt "israeli occupation", in Iraq it's agains't the "american occupation"
I'm not supporting either, just sayin..

Meldon

09-25-2006, 06:11 PM

Remind me again what exactly Hisbulla are resisting?

22 years of israeli occupation?

Danik

09-25-2006, 06:15 PM

22 years of israeli occupation?
That ended 6 years ago. And why werent they so up in arms against Syrian occupation of Lebanon that was far more brutal and far reaching.

Meldon

09-25-2006, 06:34 PM

That ended 6 years ago.

regular violation of the blue line, israeli planes above lebanese territory, israeli boats in the lebanese water, shebaa farms, lebanese kept in custody in Israel, landmines maps not given to lebanese autorities, etc. Even if they left the mainland (because of hezb...) The fact is Israel is not seen as a good neighbour when you are lebanese IMHO...

As for Syria, lebanese people do not like their occupation either... and they told them.

http://www.libanoscopie.com/Docs/images/Material/77_52_cedre1.jpg

GiladS

09-25-2006, 06:42 PM

Danik

09-25-2006, 06:43 PM

regular violation of the blue line, israeli planes above lebanese territory, israeli boats in the lebanese water, shebaa farms, lebanese kept in custody in Israel, landmines maps not given to lebanese autorities, etc. Even if they left the mainland (because of hezb...) The fact is Israel is not seen as a good neighbour when you are lebanese IMHO...

As for Syria, lebanese people do not like their occupation either... and they told them.

http://www.libanoscopie.com/Docs/images/Material/77_52_cedre1.jpg

They TOLD them to leave even though they are responsible for killing many people, they even killed the former pm, and tried to kill a commander just 2 weeks ago. Where is the violent resistence to their presense from Hezb. Hezb shoots across the border, kidnapped and killed soldiers(prior incident, not current) after the withdrawl, Israel may be causing noise, but instead of filing noise complaint, hezb kills people, its not very nice. Sheeba farms is not recognized Lebanese soil, even Syria who says take it has not formaly proclaimed it to be Lebanese. The prisoners in the Israeli jail are stone cold murderers, the most famous being a a violent homicidal maniac, this is the revered hero of hezballah? Plus something tells me, I dont know what it could be... but I think the ppl in that pic are christians, Hezb is fan of Syria.

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 06:44 PM

Boycot Israeli goods? Except kosher food and "Infected Mushroom" i have yet to see Israeli products avaliable for mass consumption,

Actually, I do. AMD processor, never buy Jaffas, always see where produce comes from, rarely buy Israeli origin goods. I wouldn't say I never buy Israeli but I try to avoid it if possible.

HOWEVER... I do not encourage or discourage anybody in this action. For me it's a personal choice, as a protest against Israeli POLICY in the West Bank, not against the state of Israel itself. I don't say it's wrong to buy Israeli and I would not think of people as better or worse for this sort of action or inaction.

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 06:46 PM

In the US of A the far left, aka liberals, are associated with communists. Where as the far-right, are associated with facism.

Pictures were not taken in the USA, but the UK. Here liberals and communists are world's apart.

Mr.K

09-25-2006, 06:53 PM

Actually, I do. AMD processor, never buy Jaffas, always see where produce comes from, rarely buy Israeli origin goods. I wouldn't say I never buy Israeli but I try to avoid it if possible.

HOWEVER... I do not encourage or discourage anybody in this action. For me it's a personal choice, as a protest against Israeli POLICY in the West Bank, not against the state of Israel itself. I don't say it's wrong to buy Israeli and I would not think of people as better or worse for this sort of action or inaction.

Oh you're gonna make yourself a lot of friends here then p-).
What you do its up to you though.

Danik

09-25-2006, 06:58 PM

Pictures were not taken in the USA, but the UK. Here liberals and communists are world's apart.

Yea I noticed that after I wrote it, but I just wanted to clarify, that here the spectrum is reversed. Although Im not going to force you to buy Israeli products, I think boycotting their goods is just, well the word in russian would be dolboyobstva, which means dumbfcukery. I personally do not like Arabs, it will not prevent me from buying Egyptian cotton sheets, Pipe tobacco, cofee, or any other products. Historically the Arabs have tried to boycott Israeli goods, in Palastine as well, it ended the same as Saddam's first hunger strike every time. I hope you carry your boycott over on US products as well, as you probably dont appreciate our policies either, or is it to inconvenient? In any case your mentality is at least ok on this manner, unlike arabs who scream at proffesors in school because they buy cofee from starbucks, and that somehow supports Israel.

Moledet

09-25-2006, 07:01 PM

Actually, I do. AMD processor, never buy Jaffas, always see where produce comes from, rarely buy Israeli origin goods. I wouldn't say I never buy Israeli but I try to avoid it if possible.

HOWEVER... I do not encourage or discourage anybody in this action. For me it's a personal choice, as a protest against Israeli POLICY in the West Bank, not against the state of Israel itself. I don't say it's wrong to buy Israeli and I would not think of people as better or worse for this sort of action or inaction.
AMD processor, but you are using Microsoft's software and Microsoft has lots of development centers here. There's also a high chance you are using a Motorola cellphone that was developed in Israel, drinking Coke beverages that are produced in Israel and using Teva medicines.
And I am pretty sure that's just a partial list.

Meldon

09-25-2006, 07:03 PM

I think the ppl in that pic are christians

Because they are dressed like western girls?

If you look at their music videos (http://www.dailymotion.com/visited/search/haifa%20wehbe/video/x2dc0_haifa-wehbe-ya-hayat-albi-damrip), they are quite like ours (the singer is muslim if you need the precision).
Lebanon is not an islamist republic full of fanatics, Hezb is just a cancer groving on the wounds of the war.

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 07:04 PM

Oh you're gonna make yourself a lot of friends here then p-).
What you do its up to you though.

I came here to learn, and to question my beliefs. Making friends was incidental to the exercise.

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 07:06 PM

AMD processor, but you are using Microsoft's software and Microsoft has lots of development centers here.

Dude, they got development centres everywhere. I fought and lost my personal battle with MS in the 90s. At least I paid for all my OS, something a lot of posters here didn't do.

There's also a high chance you are using a Motorola cellphone that was developed in Israel,

NEC. Japanese.

drinking Coke beverages that are produced in Israel and using Teva medicines.

Never touch the sh1t. Water or fruit juice (usually water). Tea when I'm at home.

And I am pretty sure that's just a partial list.

Thank God for country of origin labels, eh?

Mr.Flint

09-25-2006, 07:08 PM

By the way AMD considers to build a development centre in Israel too... gonna move to MAC?
edit: Oh wait i forgot MACs now run on Intel cpus... heh...

GiladS

09-25-2006, 07:10 PM

Actually, I do. AMD processor, never buy Jaffas, always see where produce comes from, rarely buy Israeli origin goods. I wouldn't say I never buy Israeli but I try to avoid it if possible.

HOWEVER... I do not encourage or discourage anybody in this action. For me it's a personal choice, as a protest against Israeli POLICY in the West Bank, not against the state of Israel itself. I don't say it's wrong to buy Israeli and I would not think of people as better or worse for this sort of action or inaction.

As a person who lives among those who make a living off agriculture (including a lot of export abroad) I can't say I understand this choice of yours.

It won't change any government policy in our country, that's for sure.

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 07:11 PM

By the way AMD considers to build a development centre in Israel too

Who says I'm gonna upgrade without a lot of thought and research?

I advise people all the time about upgrades and similar. Never once... NEVER ONCE... have I said "don't buy that, it's Israeli".

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 07:12 PM

As a person who lives among those who make a living off agriculture (including a lot of export abroad) I can't say I understand this choice of yours.

It won't change any government policy in our country, that's for sure.

True, my personal choices do not affect things. Although if enough people adopt it it might encourage such a shift in policy.

NimDod

09-25-2006, 07:16 PM

what was this thread's topic again?

anyway, I think its funny when someone boycotts Jaffa Oranges because of the Israeli policy, because its mostly Palestinian workers who pick those oranges / working in aagriculture in Israel...

Moledet

09-25-2006, 07:20 PM

True, my personal choices do not affect things. Although if enough people adopt it it might encourage such a shift in policy.
Nah, not realy.
Israeli companies rarely develope solutions for private users, most of the products are for large companies. They are not dependent on you or on anyone that doesn't own the leading companies in the world.
And the world's companies only think about getting the best deal for their money, so they will buy whatever suits them the best.

BTW, lots of Palestinian agricultural goods are marked as Israeli because they are sent from Israeli sea-ports through an Israeli company.

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 07:21 PM

Nah, not realy.
Israeli companies rarely develope solutions for private users, most of the products are for large companies. They are not dependent on you or on anyone that doesn't own the leading companies in the world.
And the world's companies only think about getting the best deal for their money, so they will buy whatever suits them the best.

They won't buy what they can't sell.

Danik

09-25-2006, 07:28 PM

Because they are dressed like western girls?

If you look at their music videos (http://www.dailymotion.com/visited/search/haifa%20wehbe/video/x2dc0_haifa-wehbe-ya-hayat-albi-damrip), they are quite like ours (the singer is muslim if you need the precision).
Lebanon is not an islamist republic full of fanatics, Hezb is just a cancer groving on the wounds of the war.

Yea. Did you see the make up of the two rallies, the kind of ppl that were at the Hezballah rally and those at the Christian rally? Hezballah enjoys Syrian support, why would they rally against them, other than to appear like they are with Lebanon. and yea Haifa is hot, but can I also assume she gets death threats? As the radical Arab girls in my school get lectured about alcohol and sucking infidel ****, and wearing provacative clothing. PS Haifa's mom is a Coptic Christian.

Moledet

09-25-2006, 07:28 PM

They won't buy what they can't sell.
They don't sell them, they use them.
Israeli companies mostly develope business and security solutions for large companies in addition to hardware used in manafucturing of digital devices.

For example: Motorola Israel is contacted by an American company, Motorola Israel develops the phone for that company by their requirements and sends it to East Asia for manafucturing. The American company gives the new phone to its employees so they can contact eachother without using the cellular network.

GiladS

09-25-2006, 07:29 PM

True, my personal choices do not affect things. Although if enough people adopt it it might encourage such a shift in policy.

No mate, you'll be just hurting a lot of hard working people.

Not just Israelis but also Thais and Arabs.

Mr.Flint

09-25-2006, 07:33 PM

They won't buy what they can't sell.
You do understand that it wont achieve anything?
If (unlikely though) the boycot movement will grow, you most likely to harm those Israeli business that do not support Israel's policy, than those who do... will you prompt them to action? nope, because they are quite active for a while already...

Financial boycott of Israel is as pointless as Academical...
Heck, even the United Church here, realised that simple fact, and you wont find a more hippie bunch here...
Now all they call for is movement of investements from companies based in "occupied territories" to companies that based within "recongnised" borders of Israel...
Is it smart and effective? maybe, but its definately not as stupid as full boycot.

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 08:18 PM

You do understand that it wont achieve anything?

<weary> Read the thread title Mr Smartarse.

One can be opposed to Occupation without sending a dime to Hizbollah.

Would you rather I did that than be choosy about my shopping basket? I don't think so.

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 08:19 PM

No mate, you'll be just hurting a lot of hard working people.

Not just Israelis but also Thais and Arabs.

Who makes the lion's share of the cash? The worker in the field or the business owner? The business owner, because they have the "risk" of finding a market.

You got to pay those workers regardless of whether or not the produce finds a market.

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 08:21 PM

They don't sell them, they use them.
Israeli companies mostly develope business and security solutions for large companies in addition to hardware used in manafucturing of digital devices.

For example: Motorola Israel is contacted by an American company, Motorola Israel develops the phone for that company by their requirements and sends it to East Asia for manafucturing. The American company gives the new phone to its employees so they can contact eachother without using the cellular network.

Yes, but that is corporate interest, not end consumer market.

GiladS

09-25-2006, 08:23 PM

Who makes the lion's share of the cash? The worker in the field or the business owner? The business owner, because they have the "risk" of finding a market.

You got to pay those workers regardless of whether or not the produce finds a market.

And what about cutbacks that include the workforce?

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 08:43 PM

And what about cutbacks that include the workforce?

Good point. Do you think I"ll be able to get a visa to go and ask them?

GiladS

09-25-2006, 08:44 PM

Do you think I"ll be able to get a visa to go and ask them?

Sorry mate, could you clarify that?

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 08:47 PM

This Palestinian and Thai workforce that you seemed concerned about. Do you think I would qualify for a visa to go and ask them, if my stated aim is to go and ask them?

Tourist visa waiver wouldn't cover that. I wouldn't be going for pleasure but for political purposes, so it's pretty unlikely I'd get let in.

Unless I lied about why I was going, of course.

GiladS

09-25-2006, 08:51 PM

This Palestinian and Thai workforce that you seemed concerned about.

Ask them what? What does a visa got to do with anything?

I'm sorry but I'm really not getting your point.

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 08:52 PM

Edited my post. Try reading it again.

Danik

09-25-2006, 08:55 PM

Edited my post. Try reading it again.

You can go there all you like, if you had family there, or was with the press, or ngo. But you seriously think you can go to another country and demand to access areas which are restricted, and who said the PA would allow you in. Geez try getting into Chechnya with that same request, or kurdistan.

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 08:56 PM

You can go there all you like, if you had family there, or was with the press, or ngo. But you seriously think you can go to another country and demand to access areas which are restricted, and who said the PA would allow you in. Geez try getting into Chechnya with that same request, or kurdistan.

I wasn't demanding anything. I was asking. I have no family there, I haven't been a member of the press for over 10 years and NGOs as far as I can see aren't worth the bother.

Interesting you put Israel up there with Chechnya and Kurdistan for internal policing though. I would never have done that.

GiladS

09-25-2006, 09:00 PM

Edited my post. Try reading it again.

Alright, it's a bit more clear, but what is it exactly that you would want to ask them?

It's kind of clear that when a business (including an agricultural farm) is earning less, then it has to carry out cutbacks.

Bottom line mate, buy Jaffa oranges and Israeli cherry tomatoes if they are to your liking. The people who grow them aren't the one's calling the shots when it comes to the political situation down here.

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 09:05 PM

Bottom line mate, buy Jaffa oranges and Israeli cherry tomatoes if they are to your liking. The people who grow them aren't the one's calling the shots when it comes to the political situation down here.

But why should a dime of mine go to a country that occupies land to which it has no right?

I'm not going to oppose it with a gun or a bomb. But I'm not going to support it either.

My problem with this thread is that it portrays everybody who has issues with Israeli policy as pro Hisbullah supporters who would love to go to the Lebanon and have a go.

It's not like that at all.

GiladS

09-25-2006, 09:06 PM

You can go there all you like, if you had family there, or was with the press, or ngo. But you seriously think you can go to another country and demand to access areas which are restricted, and who said the PA would allow you in. Geez try getting into Chechnya with that same request, or kurdistan.

Chechnya and Kurdistan?

That's a "bit" taking things out of proportions.

Also the fields where the produce is grown around here are the last place I'd deem "restricted".

In fact I'd be willing to give CL a tour around here if he ever came by.

Danik

09-25-2006, 09:09 PM

Im just making a point, your request is out there, as a lone individual can not get into any restricted territory anywhere in the world, let alone Israel. Wether its Chechnya, Kurdistan, or Indian reservation in US.

What was your whole problem? You want to not buy Israeli products becuase you dont like their policies. Knowing full well that those companies are privately owned and you would only be hurting Israeli citizens and their Arab counterparts. I dont like Arabs! I have been through the 9-11 attacks, I have lost family to the conflict, I have had other family affected by this recent conflict, I have friends who fought in Iraq. I have never liked any of their policies. Even so, when I see Arab products in the store I think I shouldnt by it becuase its Arab and I dont want to support them, but then I think who am I hurting by not buying this item? Me, who wants the product, and some guy trying to make a living. If you knew that the company from which you are buying is sending money to fund terrorist organisations, then by all means dont buy their products. But from what I gather your sitting in Europe, unaffected by the conflict, and imposing a boycott on Israeli goods? Did Israelis blow up busses in london? Trains in Spain? Fly planes into buildings in the US? thousands of other attacks. Some of those Arab companies can very well be sending money to terrorists, they are the ones whom you should be boycotting, but you cant tell whos who...

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 09:14 PM

What was your whole problem? You want to not buy Israeli products becuase you dont like their policies. Knowing full well that those companies are privately owned and you would only be hurting Israeli citizens and their Arab counterparts. I dont like Arabs! I have been through the 9-11 attacks, I have lost family to the conflict, I have had other family affected by this recent conflict, I have friends who fought in Iraq. I have never liked any of their policies. Even so, when I see Arab products in the store I think I shouldnt by it becuase its Arab and I dont want to support them, but then I think who am I hurting by not buying this item? Me, who wants the product, and some guy trying to make a living. If you knew that the company from which you are buying is sending money to fund terrorist organisations, then by all means dont buy their products. But from what I gather your sitting in Europe, unaffected by the conflict, and imposing a boycott on Israeli goods? Did Israelis blow up busses in london? Trains in Spain? Fly planes into buildings in the US? thousands of other attacks. Some of those Arab companies can very well be sending money to terrorists, they are the ones whom you should be boycotting, but you cant tell whos who...

I already do pal. I don't drive, don't own a motor vehicle, and only use public transport when my bicycle can't get me there in time. It's got nothing to do with it being Arab, I just don't approve of privately owned motor transport. :fork:

How much of the Arab product known as "oil" do YOU boycott then, eh?

GiladS, I might take you up on that offer of a guided tour. Don't hold your breath, won't be until mid next year at the earliest that I visit. Plenty of warning to be given and of course feel free to withdraw the offer at any time.

Deal?

GiladS

09-25-2006, 09:22 PM

But why should a dime of mine go to a country that occupies land to which it has no right?

Reality is very complicated and this sentece is too black and white to fairly depict it.

CL, you have an opinion and if not buying Jaffa oranges sits well with that opinion then so be it.

You seem like a person who can hold a civil disscusion and isn't affixed on a certain point of view.

So, as I wrote to Danik, if you ever thought of coming by I'd make sure you'd have a chance to meet the workers overhere and see the type of work they and the farm managers are doing making the desert bloom.

GiladS

09-25-2006, 09:35 PM

GiladS, I might take you up on that offer of a guided tour. Don't hold your breath, won't be until mid next year at the earliest that I visit. Plenty of warning to be given and of course feel free to withdraw the offer at any time.

Deal?

The only problem that could arise would be my military service that begins in November.

But it ain't an impassable wall.

So no problem, just give me a heads up before you arrive ;)

Danik

09-25-2006, 09:38 PM

I already do pal. I don't drive, don't own a motor vehicle, and only use public transport when my bicycle can't get me there in time. It's got nothing to do with it being Arab, I just don't approve of privately owned motor transport. :fork:

How much of the Arab product known as "oil" do YOU boycott then, eh?

GiladS, I might take you up on that offer of a guided tour. Don't hold your breath, won't be until mid next year at the earliest that I visit. Plenty of warning to be given and of course feel free to withdraw the offer at any time.

Deal?

Sir, my whole point was that boycotting anyones household products does nothing. I said I dont boycott Arab goods, and I expect the same from other people, I admit that feelings some times get the best of me, and Im sure they also get Arabs and they stay away from Israeli goods at times. But you as a non involved individual really has no reason to do what you say, especially because it sounds like the companies you boycott, will just hurt average workers and avg joe's who own the businesses. Oranges and juice are not main revenue for the Army.

All you had to say, was that I think Israeli goods taste like ass and I dont buy them, instead you chose to boycott oranges on political grounds.:)

Danik

09-25-2006, 09:41 PM

But why should a dime of mine go to a country that occupies land to which it has no right?

Well with that mentality you cant visit or give money too:

Russia
Iraq
Turkey
Iran
USA
UK
India
...

CruddyLeper

09-25-2006, 09:59 PM

Well with that mentality you cant visit or give money too:

Russia
Iraq
Turkey
Iran
USA
UK
India
...

I know. Makes shopping a 8itch, I can tell you.

Why is the UK on that list? We're not colonising anywhere anymore that I know about.

Iran is a bit suspect as well... although I don't eat Iranian pistachios because in that case it's true, they do taste like arse.

Danik

09-25-2006, 10:19 PM

I know. Makes shopping a 8itch, I can tell you.

Why is the UK on that list? We're not colonising anywhere anymore that I know about.

Iran is a bit suspect as well... although I don't eat Iranian pistachios because in that case it's true, they do taste like arse.

So you have a right to Northern Ireland?

maybe Bermuda will revolt, any day now! I gather from my daily CIA briefings.

SBL

09-25-2006, 11:01 PM

So you have a right to Northern Ireland?

Rights and Laws, when concerning international affairs are largely matters of pretense. They are used or discarded according to their usefulness in a given situation.

That being said, anti-war= pro-hizbullah makes sense for these reasons:

Protesting war, and turning it into joint humanitarian/peace-monger affair (like the folks in the previous pictures) or suing for peace when there is no clear-cut winner (like the UN attempts) serve only to prolong the conflict. This prolongation will inevitably favor one side- in this case Hizbullah because it is: 1. the "poor little underdog"
2. a dedicated armed group that enjoys funding and armament from outside.
3. Doesn't rely as heavily on public support to implement it's policies.

Israel is under pressure to be more "humanitarian" in it's approach to warfare and so it can't really let the chain off the dog without igniting a firestorm of public opinion. And being that it's a soveriegn government, it can be more easily held accountable for it's actions than can a guerilla/resistance group like Hizbullah.

I wish I could be more concise, but I wasn't blessed with that attribute I guess. Besides, the Saints game is on TV right now. At any rate, I hope it makes sense.

Kilgor

09-25-2006, 11:10 PM

Cruddy, why arnt you boycotting goods from china ? They occupy Tibet, and have a terrible human rights record.

Danik

09-25-2006, 11:38 PM

Cruddy, why arnt you boycotting goods from china ? They occupy Tibet, and have a terrible human rights record.

Oh man, he got you.

Im afraid you will starve to death before you can implement boycotts without being a hypocrite.

Danik

09-25-2006, 11:40 PM

SBL

09-25-2006, 11:43 PM

SnakeBiteLeader

Why are you directing stuff at me. I just said that NI thing to be an asshole to cruddy. I totaly agree with your statement and you were concise. good job. Im just trying to prove to Cruddy that on a political basis there are plenty other countries to be boycotting if he wants to do it fairly, and at the same time explain that one person boycotts equate to you missing out on stuff from abroad.

I'm sorry but that wasn't aimed at you. Just stating my opinion.
I didn't even read most of the boycott posts. But I agree with you at any rate.
Sorry for the confusion.

*EDIT* I just re-read it and noticed my comment about rights- which was aimed at you. But again, I was just making a general statement-not neccessarily gunning for you.

Mr.Flint

09-26-2006, 12:48 AM

<weary> Read the thread title Mr Smartarse.

One can be opposed to Occupation without sending a dime to Hizbollah.

Would you rather I did that than be choosy about my shopping basket? I don't think so.
Didnt say anything about sending a dime to Hizbullah,
All i say is that your reasons for being choosy about your shopping basket, are not the smartest, and even pointed a way to make a difference, like some did, in a smart way.
But hey whatever floats your boat.

Meldon

09-26-2006, 01:24 AM

Yea. Did you see the make up of the two rallies, the kind of ppl that were at the Hezballah rally and those at the Christian rally? Hezballah enjoys Syrian support, why would they rally against them, other than to appear like they are with Lebanon. and yea Haifa is hot, but can I also assume she gets death threats? As the radical Arab girls in my school get lectured about alcohol and sucking infidel ****, and wearing provacative clothing. PS Haifa's mom is a Coptic Christian.

So what's the point? Every "true" muslim (quoting Coran all day long with a beard or a sheet on the head?) is a ***** bast*** that must be killed?
Lebanon is a multiconfessionnal state which began to be an example for its democracy (I remember some president of the white house saying something about that...) and for its vitality. The fact is you won't find a lebanese nowaday who like Israel (destroying the infrastructure of a country is never a good way to make friends) although almost everybody in Lebanon disagree with Hezb. We cannot say it is fair to put everybody in the same basket, you can say I'm anti war (in this case) and not pro Hezbollah, you can say I think Israel did a terrible mistake without sharing shia views.

Danik

09-26-2006, 01:56 AM

So what's the point? Every "true" muslim (quoting Coran all day long with a beard or a sheet on the head?) is a ***** bast*** that must be killed?
Lebanon is a multiconfessionnal state which began to be an example for its democracy (I remember some president of the white house saying something about that...) and for its vitality. The fact is you won't find a lebanese nowaday who like Israel (destroying the infrastructure of a country is never a good way to make friends) although almost everybody in Lebanon disagree with Hezb. We cannot say it is fair to put everybody in the same basket, you can say I'm anti war (in this case) and not pro Hezbollah, you can say I think Israel did a terrible mistake without sharing shia views.

I think my point was that Lebanon is divided society as it has been for many years, its Shia vs Christian+Sunni+Druze. The people that were at the helm of the revolution, or at least in your pic were Christians most likely not shia muslims(the base of Hezballah). I know several Lebanese that like Israel, even now. They know where to place blame, they can deff say I think Israel was wrong for blowing all this stuff up, but if it wasnt for Hezballah doing stupid sh-t it would have never happened. Almost everybody in Lebanon disagree with Hezb The rally for Hezballah several days ago had 800,000ppl, thats out of a population of 3.8 million, nearly a quarter of the country came. Or do you mean they disagree with them now that they got bombed, because if I recall they were setting of fireworks when they kidnapped the soldiers at first.

Redguy

09-26-2006, 02:27 AM

anti war nut cases are really going to bring peace to israel.....yahhhh..

CruddyLeper

09-26-2006, 09:24 AM

So you have a right to Northern Ireland?

I suggest you refer your beliefs to the serving and ex forces UK members of this board.

And where is Iran colonising then? Never did back to me on that point...

... my point about the West Bank is, that was done AFTER Israel signed up to the UN.

Other examples posted are pre-UN. See the difference?

Whole fvcking POINT of the UN was to stop colonisation and let people govern themselves.

Oh man, he got you.

Im afraid you will starve to death before you can implement boycotts without being a hypocrite.
Check your dates. China wasn't signed up to the UN charter then.

Israel has broken its word. Israel signed up to the UN charter and continues to sh1t on it. THAT is the difference.

You sit there, using your Arab oil, watching your Chinese built TV, and 8itch about how terrible these places are.

So who is the hypocrite?

Hydro

09-26-2006, 09:43 AM

If Cruddy doesn't want to buy oranges or anything else from Israel because of what he believes, then who are we to judge him? Let the guy get on with it. I don't boycott anything, because personally I'd rather have my juicy oranges and my Chinese TV than make my life harder than it already is to make me feel better about someone who lives thousands of miles away. Call me a product of decandent Western capitalism, but thats the way I feel. Cruddy obviously feels different, and so be it. It's what makes life interesting.

Hollis

09-26-2006, 11:40 AM

... my point about the West Bank is, that was done AFTER Israel signed up to the UN.

Israel has broken its word. Israel signed up to the UN charter and continues to sh1t on it. THAT is the difference.

Cruddy, I move into YOUR house, then claim half of it. My PR is better than yours, so now half of the neighborhood feels you are occupying my house.

Maybe review the Balford agreement, and the Compromise of 1946. Before you blame Israel.

Also ask yourself, where is this Palestine History prior 1967?

CruddyLeper

09-26-2006, 11:49 AM

Balfour Agreement?

it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine

So, invading land, knocking down houses, building your own communities, burning Arab crops isn't prejudicing existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine?

Also ask yourself, where is this Palestine History prior 1967?

What are you talking about? What is your point here?

Kaplanr

09-26-2006, 12:07 PM

I suggest you refer your beliefs to the serving and ex forces UK members of this board.

And where is Iran colonising then? Never did back to me on that point...

... my point about the West Bank is, that was done AFTER Israel signed up to the UN.

Other examples posted are pre-UN. See the difference?

Whole fvcking POINT of the UN was to stop colonisation and let people govern themselves.

Check your dates. China wasn't signed up to the UN charter then.

Israel has broken its word. Israel signed up to the UN charter and continues to sh1t on it. THAT is the difference.

You sit there, using your Arab oil, watching your Chinese built TV, and 8itch about how terrible these places are.

So who is the hypocrite?

Whoa. The whole effing point of the UN was to do what the League of Nations couldn't do, prevent the preparation and arming of alliances for a third World War. It may have spoken loftally of self-determination and indepencence, but that came about because the different peoples (Algerians, Vietnamese, Indians, Kenyans, etc.) fought for it.

The various peace keeping operations, some humanitarian efforts and the Korean intervention sort of tip the scales in its favor if you ask if it's been successful. But only marginally. Its greatest success is that it's still around, and that 160 or 170 some odd nations still meet in one forum without bloodletting. There's at least some backroom meetings where the Israeli delegate says "Good Morning" to the Libyan, and maybe the Venezuelan toasts the American with a cup of coffee.

As to boycotting Israeli goods, your call. Are you willing to forgo the hardware, software and chip developments engineered in Israel for Intel, Motorola and IBM, as well as the Internet technologies developed there?

Meldon

09-26-2006, 12:07 PM

The rally for Hezballah several days ago had 800,000ppl

Where did you find this number? The officials said 120,000 to 200,000 (for sana syria news) and jokes are that there was plenty of syrians in town friday lol

About your friend in Lebanon liking Israel, I know plenty liking israelis but none (even lebanese jews) fan of their governement nor the way they deal with their neighbours.

CruddyLeper

09-26-2006, 12:13 PM

As to boycotting Israeli goods, your call. Are you willing to forgo the hardware, software and chip developments engineered in Israel for Intel, Motorola and IBM, as well as the Internet technologies developed there?

So far so good.

kaia

09-26-2006, 12:31 PM

It doesn´t make much difference if you moroccan,south-african, spanish or israeli oranges. Very few people bother to check where the stuff they buy comes from.

kaia

09-26-2006, 12:32 PM

Wonder if any part in my Fujitsu Siemens computer is made in Israel?

Hollis

09-26-2006, 12:36 PM

Moledet

09-26-2006, 12:37 PM

Wonder if any part in my Fujitsu Siemens computer is made in Israel?
Made? Most likely not, it's cheaper to make in China or Taiwan (though there are some manafucturing facilities).
A part of it might have been developed in Israel, if you have an Intel Centrino proccessor than it was developed in Israel.

Danik

09-26-2006, 04:23 PM

[quote=CruddyLeper;1952533]I suggest you refer your beliefs to the serving and ex forces UK members of this board.
I have no idea what you mean.

And where is Iran colonising then? Never did back to me on that point...
Kurdistan, and who said anything about colonising?

Check your dates. China wasn't signed up to the UN charter then.

Hilarious, you judge people on different standards, so will you let me genocide arabs if I pull out of the UN? Is it acceptable then? You have some interesting beliefs. So there was a a meeting sometime ago and the Jews missed it, if only they had attented they could have just taken the entire ancient empire of Israel to themseleves and cleansed it of arabs, and today you would not be boycotting oranges.

Israel has broken its word. Israel signed up to the UN charter and continues to sh1t on it. THAT is the difference.

Arabs broke their word first, they broke their word prior to Jews even making any ageements, in that they started rioting and killing Jews for the simple fact that they were there. And continue to do it to this day, the difference being that international pressure makes Israel act, while the arabs dont accept pressure because the west relies on their oil.

You sit there, using your Arab oil, watching your Chinese built TV, and 8itch about how terrible these places are.

So who is the hypocrite?

Im not bitching about anything, Im bringin up a point that there are places in much worse conditions in this world, but you choose to take out your political activism on Israel, in the region they are the most civilized and advnaced society, Its people like you that are racist that hold Jews to a different standard, while you may not approve of the actual genocides occuring in Arab countries or their complete lack of respect for civil rights, you excuse their behaviour becuase they never claim to be fair and just people, they violate the same treaties and UN conventions, Geneva conventions and most times in much worse instances than Israel, but to you because the Israelis are Israelis they should act to higher standards.

CruddyLeper

09-26-2006, 04:40 PM

Kurdistan, and who said anything about colonising?

That is the basis for my beef about the Occupation. It is neo-colonial - an era that belongs in the past, behaviour that was outlawed by the UN charter. Irans is not colonisng Kurdistan... because Kurdistan doesn't exist.

Hilarious, you judge people on different standards, so will you let me genocide arabs if I pull out of the UN? Is it acceptable then? You have some interesting beliefs. So there was a a meeting sometime ago and the Jews missed it, if only they had attented they could have just taken the entire ancient empire of Israel to themseleves and cleansed it of arabs, and today you would not be boycotting oranges.

Same standards. You sign up to an agreement, you keep your word or you are branded as an oathbreaker.

Arabs broke their word first, they broke their word prior to Jews even making any ageements, in that they started rioting and killing Jews for the simple fact that they were there. And continue to do it to this day, the difference being that international pressure makes Israel act, while the arabs dont accept pressure because the west relies on their oil.

Go wiki the SNS. Go on. See which side the UK was supporting right from the get go, and the methods that were employed.

You're complaining about Arabs rioting with that sort of sh1t going on? Death count was 10 to 1 even then. So don't give me crap about Arabs going around massacring the early Zionists. In terms of numbers, it was the Arabs who got massacred, and are being ethnically cleansed by Israel.

Im not bitching about anything, Im bringin up a point that there are places in much worse conditions in this world, but you choose to take out your political activism on Israel, in the region they are the most civilized and advnaced society, Its people like you that are racist that hold Jews to a different standard,
Who said anything about Jews first? Who? WHO?

Disapproval of Israeli policy on the West Bank <> Anti-Semitism. That dog won't hunt.

while you may not approve of the actual genocides occuring in Arab countries or their complete lack of respect for civil rights, you excuse their behaviour becuase they never claim to be fair and just people, they violate the same treaties and UN conventions, Geneva conventions and most times in much worse instances than Israel, but to you because the Israelis are Israelis they should act to higher standards.
Find me an example of an Arab country breaking it's word and colonising a neighbour after signing up to the UN Charter.

CruddyLeper

09-26-2006, 04:42 PM

Made? Most likely not, it's cheaper to make in China or Taiwan (though there are some manafucturing facilities).
A part of it might have been developed in Israel, if you have an Intel Centrino proccessor than it was developed in Israel.

Intel Centrino isn't a processor type. Try Dothan or Merom.

CruddyLeper

09-26-2006, 04:47 PM

Cruddy, the name palestine came from the Roman, around 112 AD. They actually wanted to rename Israel to Phillistina. The name was carried forward because of the Greeco/Roman influence in European history.

The PLO/Palestine as we know it today, is a concept from about 1967. Prior that time, Arafat (a Egyptian) called Trans Jordan/Jordan Palestine. Then he went to Lebanon, then Israel where he became a Billionare. Terrorism is a good paying job.

The compromise of 1946, was later considered to be a horrible mistake....... Israel trading Land for Peace. The compromise was broken by the Arabs parties with the Invasion of Israel in 1948.

It was called Palestine when the British where running it.

Then they had the brillaint idea of having a Jewish homeland there.

Unfortunately, Jewish Statehood was declared, not homeland, with resultant partition.

So don't give me that "no Palestine before 1967" crap. Try getting a 1930s atlas.

CruddyLeper

09-26-2006, 04:48 PM

It doesn´t make much difference if you moroccan,south-african, spanish or israeli oranges. Very few people bother to check where the stuff they buy comes from.

Thank God for mandatory EU "country of origin" packaging then... or is one of you going to speak out against consumer choice?

Kaplanr

09-26-2006, 04:49 PM

Disapproval of Israeli policy on the West Bank <> Anti-Semitism. That dog won't hunt.

Find me an example of an Arab country breaking it's word and colonising a neighbour after signing up to the UN Charter.

Since you're so single-minded, who or what is being illegally colonized? Since there wasn't a government or state of Palestine to be occupied, that's out. The "West Bank" as it were was occupied by Jordan as a result of the 49 Armistice, but weren't permanent boundaries. As a matter of fact only two states ever recognized Jordan's claim to the West Bank - Great Britain and Pakistan. No mention has been made of legitimately purchased and settled Jewish land in what became the West Bank after the owners were driven out.

Sems to me your conveniently single-minded and biased, and that the sins yo hold people accountable for have little moral clarity or relativity.

CruddyLeper

09-26-2006, 04:51 PM

Since you're so single-minded, who or what is being illegally colonized? Since there wasn't a government or state of Palestine to be occupied, that's out. The "West Bank" as it were was occupied by Jordan as a result of the 49 Armistice, but weren't permanent boundaries. As a matter of fact only two states ever recognized Jordan's claim to the West Bank - Great Britain and Pakistan. No mention has been made of legitimately purchased and settled Jewish land in what became the West Bank after the owners were driven out.

Sems to me your conveniently single-minded and biased, and that the sins yo hold people accountable for have little moral clarity or relativity.

Give you one guess where I live. "legitimately purchased and settled Jewish land in what became the West Bank after the owners were driven out." - who was it purchased from? The Arabs living there didn't sell it. Sounds like Iraeli govt scam to me.

And the West Bank isn't included in the 1948 partition map. So Israel has no claim to it either.

How about the people living there running the country... oh wait, you can't do that, they're Arabs...

Kaplanr

09-26-2006, 04:56 PM

It was called Palestine when the British where running it.

So don't give me that "no Palestine before 1967" crap. Try getting a 1930s atlas.

Get yourself a 1920 atlas and see what originally constituted "Palestine".

Oops, where'd that Hashemite Kingdom come from? They came from the Hejaz.

Prior to the State of Israel, when one talked about Palestinians, they were usually referring to the residents of the Yishuv, the Jews living in Palestine.

Balam

09-26-2006, 05:11 PM

Palestina is an invention of the Romans, THAT´S IT.

And about the issue here, is that all those jerks don´t even know why they are protesting, anti-war? support hezbolah?, I have never heard such incompatible things. How can they associate hezbolahs actions whit peace?

It really doesn´t make sense to me.

Just like those damn hippies in the 60´s they are just being a annoyance for the real peace makers, who are the ones who fight to stop nonsense violence like the hezbolah undiscrimate strikes, jihads, communist revolutions, and all those crazy and full-hate imposing ideals.

To end, I ask this: What would happened if everybody would listened to the anti-war activists in the 40´s instead of Churchil in UK? or if US would refused to fight the nazism??
Today´s jerks would did a pro-germany demostrations then??

CruddyLeper

09-26-2006, 05:13 PM

Get yourself a 1920 atlas and see what originally constituted "Palestine".

Oops, where'd that Hashemite Kingdom come from? They came from the Hejaz.

Prior to the State of Israel, when one talked about Palestinians, they were usually referring to the residents of the Yishuv, the Jews living in Palestine.

I will check my references on that. I don't have a 1920s atlas at home.

Kaplanr

09-26-2006, 05:14 PM

Give you one guess where I live. "legitimately purchased and settled Jewish land in what became the West Bank after the owners were driven out." - who was it purchased from? The Arabs living there didn't sell it. Sounds like Iraeli govt scam to me.

And the West Bank isn't included in the 1948 partition map. So Israel has no claim to it either.

How about the people living there running the country... oh wait, you can't do that, they're Arabs...

We can take Beit HaArava as an example (South of Jericho, where the Jordan meets the Dead Sea,) no one lived there until a kibbutz was setup in 1939. There was no Israeli government yet to scam anyone.

The partition plan was 1947, not 1948. It's actually irrelevant because the Arabs, both inside and outside of Palestine rejected it, and the Britain as the Mandate power officially refused to implement it.

CruddyLeper

09-26-2006, 05:15 PM

or if US would refused to fight the nazism??

The US did refuse to fight Nazism. Hitler had to declare war on the US a week after Pearl Harbour to get them involved in Europe.

Indeed, if the Axis hadn't attacked the US, then the US would have spent WW2 quietly making money from armaments and making an easy peace with the winners (probably the USSR).

CruddyLeper

09-26-2006, 05:17 PM

We can take Beit HaArava as an example (South of Jericho, where the Jordan meets the Dead Sea,) no one lived there until a kibbutz was setup in 1939. There was no Israeli government yet to scam anyone.

The partition plan was 1947, not 1948. It's actually irrelevant because the Arabs, both inside and outside of Palestine rejected it, and the Britain as the Mandate power officially refused to implement it.

I was talking and referring to post 1967 settlements in the West Bank.

jojo

09-26-2006, 05:36 PM

The US did refuse to fight Nazism. Hitler had to declare war on the US a week after Pearl Harbour to get them involved in Europe.

Indeed, if the Axis hadn't attacked the US, then the US would have spent WW2 quietly making money from armaments and making an easy peace with the winners (probably the USSR).
Oh how it breaks my heart to agree with you when I have thus far disagreed with almost everything you've said. And it's not just the cruddy but much needed armourments we were sold -- bases around the world also had to be "surrendered" in return for American aid. They were quietly making a buck or two whilst Hitler attempted to destroy us. I have a great respect for the USA, but their idea of history is almost entirely "Hollywood" based.

Kaplanr

09-26-2006, 05:37 PM

I was talking and referring to post 1967 settlements in the West Bank.

But history is dynamic not static. Anyway I've worked hard to find you a non-Israeli source map of the Mandate period.

It's from: http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/Treaties/1920britishmandate.html

B R I T I S H M A N D A T E ( 1 9 2 0 )
http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/NewMaps2/britishmandate1920.jpg

B R I T I S H M A N D A T E (c. 1 9 2 2 )
http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/NewMaps2/britishmandate.jpg

Kaplanr

09-26-2006, 05:43 PM

Oh how it breaks my heart to agree with you when I have thus far disagreed with almost everything you've said. And it's not just the cruddy but much needed armourments we were sold -- bases around the world also had to be "surrendered" in return for American aid. They were quietly making a buck or two whilst Hitler attempted to destroy us. I have a great respect for the USA, but their idea of history is almost entirely "Hollywood" based.

Hollywood based would be good. It's Pat Buchanan "good old days" based. Lots of wishful thinking, cowboys in white hats arriving just in the nick of time thinking.

Americans have been very loathe to explore how unprepared for war they were, how as a society they weren't prepared to decide what was good or bad, and there's the appeal that facism did hold for many, generally as a result of the Depression. No one likeshearing about how much of an audience Father Coughlin really had.

CruddyLeper

09-26-2006, 05:47 PM

But history is dynamic not static. Anyway I've worked hard to find you a non-Israeli source map of the Mandate period.

It's from: http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/Treaties/1920britishmandate.html

B R I T I S H M A N D A T E ( 1 9 2 0 )
http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/NewMaps2/britishmandate1920.jpg

B R I T I S H M A N D A T E (c. 1 9 2 2 )
http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/NewMaps2/britishmandate.jpg

So it would appear then that the West Bank was actually not part of Israel, but was part of Palestine, in 1967.

And it would appear that Palestine does indeed refer to the area prior to the 1948 declaration of Israel.

Hollis

09-26-2006, 06:01 PM

So it would appear then that the West Bank was actually not part of Israel, but was part of Palestine, in 1967.

And it would appear that Palestine does indeed refer to the area prior to the 1948 declaration of Israel.

I am laughing, Palestine was Israel at the time, Notice on the map..... No Israel. Again Palestine was the name ROME re-named Israel (IE ROMAM EMPIRE 112AD).

Hollis

09-26-2006, 06:04 PM

It was called Palestine when the British where running it.

You responded to my post, and seemed to completely missed this, Maybe this third time, it might help.

I typed, "the name palestine came from the Roman, around 112 AD. They actually wanted to rename Israel to Phillistina. The name was carried forward because of the Greeco/Roman influence in European history."

Moledet

09-26-2006, 06:04 PM

Intel Centrino isn't a processor type. Try Dothan or Merom.
No need to get into details, but if you insist the core of Intel Centrino CPUs is made of a chip called Banias or Dothan or Yona, depends on when it was bought.
The newest one is Yona while the first generation is Banias.

CruddyLeper

09-26-2006, 06:16 PM

I am laughing, Palestine was Israel at the time, Notice on the map.....

Yes... OK... so after Israel gets formed, the bits outside it are called...

PALESTINE!!!

Not rocket science now is it.

CruddyLeper

09-26-2006, 06:17 PM

No need to get into details, but if you insist the core of Intel Centrino CPUs is made of a chip called Banias or Dothan or Yona, depends on when it was bought.
The newest one is Yona while the first generation is Banias.

OK. Sorry to be picky on this one, it's a sore point me. I'm a bit touchy because I used to have to enquire;-

"What sort of laptop is it?"

"It's an Intel Centrino"... like, no idea what make, model number, or indeed what processor...

I hate working for idiots. Glad I'm off that phone forever.

Moledet

09-26-2006, 06:19 PM

Yes... OK... so after Israel gets formed, the bits outside it are called...

PALESTINE!!!

Not rocket science now is it.
No they weren't.
After Israel was formed the west bank belonged to Jordan and Gaza strip belonged to Egypt.
In the six days war Israel conquered these areas and when the peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt were signed they didn't want that territory back. It's a disputed territory, it doesn't belong to the Palestinians or to Israel because Israel never annexed it.

CruddyLeper

09-26-2006, 06:20 PM

So why build settlements on it if Israel "never annexed it"?

Moledet

09-26-2006, 06:26 PM

So why build settlements on it if Israel "never annexed it"?
Good question, I don't know, I guess it's part of the Zionist ideology of settling the land. But Israel realy never annexed it (it only annexed east Jerusalem), if we had annexed it, the Palestinians would become Israeli citizens meaning that non Jews would be about 40% of Israel. That's unaccepatable as a Jewish state even though it goes against principles of democracy.

Also, if you don't annex it you can put military rule over it, making things a lot easier.

BTW, I know it doesn't sound good from a PR point of view, but that's the truth.
You have to understand that Israel isn't a democracy like the US, just like Singapore is very much different from the US but still a democracy. We need to manipulate between being a Jewish state and being a democracy and that sometimes create contrasts that lead to hurting the principles of democracy or the principles of a Jewish state.

Danik

09-26-2006, 11:03 PM

So why build settlements on it if Israel "never annexed it"?

1. Original plan was for all of Israel, that is the entire thing on the map labeled palastine. Religously and historically the land the Jews recieved in the partition plan was garbage, it contained almost non of the religious centers and more than half was desert.
2. People in Israel disagree with the settlements, but there is a good 10-15% of the population that believes they have religious and historical right to the land, which they do, but as a democracy Israeli govt and the other 85-90% of the population dont want them to build anything there.

In response to your post previously. I now understand where you are coming from. The central pivot to modern society, to you, is basically the creation of the UN charter, its as if prior to that all colonizing and ethnic cleansing was final and accepted. I mean do you not feel a country has the right to land that it wins in deffensive wars? Brits, French carved up turkey after WWI, but then again that was prior to UN charter, so fine. So in essence as long as Israel signs agreements and wants to be considered a western society they have to obey the laws, as long as Arab states dont sign they can operate outside the law which we ourselves impose, on ourselves. But Arab states have signed many of those agreements. Do they protect minority rights? How did a million strong Jewish community in Arab countries end up in Israel after its creation, I can tell you it wasnt because they loved it so much, because you dont see millions of Americans Jews hoping on a plane in 1948. Kurds are not allowed to speak kurdish in public, give their children Kurd names, or participate in Govt in Syria, and for a long time in Iraq. Iran pretends to grant minority rights, to both Kurds and Jews, but this is very clearly a farse, becuase those same groups are prohibited in many other walks of life. Christians and basically any non-muslims are not permitted in Mecca or Medina, If you saw a pic of their highway, even that was segregated to mulims and nonmuslims. We have genocide in Lebanon and Syria, in accordance to ethinic cleansing of course.

The list goes on and on, did Arab states colonize any other states in present history? I dont know, no one is colonizing anyone for the past 60 years, colonization died a long time ago, there have been invasions, genocides and such, but not even Iraq invading Kuwait can be considered colonizing. Colonization also does not pertain to Israel, find the deffenition of colonization, many countries accuse US of doing it, recently Bolivia accused Argentina and Brazil of colonizing their oil and used it as pretext to nationalize the industry. Its a word flung around by many of the worlds poorer countries, but while Chavez or Castro are shouting stop colinization they are sending pamphlets to American and European businessmen describing how great their countries are for investment, which is why you see pepsi adds and american gas stations in the background of Chavez's rallys.

But dont you see different standard applied to Israel as compared to Arab states?, If you ever read "From Beirut to Jeruslem" you will undersand the power of the media, while they make a picture of a soldier holding a teen in the WB front page material with no back story, the use of chemical weapons on Iranians by Iraqis is unmentioned, the massacre of 25K people in Syria, the fact that the shia muslims in Lebanon killed more palastinians in their time in Lebanon than did Israel, and they killed specifically unarmed civilians, that all goes into the back pages, if at all. Israeli generals operated on whether the cameras were around, the couldnt act on dispersing riots because, well frankly even waterhouses are considered inhumane nowadays, every step of their actions had to be explained, I mean seriously can you imgaine the luck Russia would have in Chechnya if it had its hands tied behind its back, or for that matter the US in Iraq and Afghanistan, if they allowed press freedom like Isreal in the territories who knows how many more casualties we would have. Montenegro just seperated, how much luck do you think they would have had is Slobodon was around, or if NATO wasnt ready to bomb Serbia again if it acted on the news.

I appoligize for the rant.

Mobydog

09-27-2006, 07:59 AM

Good question, I don't know, I guess it's part of the Zionist ideology of settling the land. But Israel realy never annexed it (it only annexed east Jerusalem), if we had annexed it, the Palestinians would become Israeli citizens meaning that non Jews would be about 40% of Israel. That's unaccepatable as a Jewish state even though it goes against principles of democracy.

Also, if you don't annex it you can put military rule over it, making things a lot easier.

BTW, I know it doesn't sound good from a PR point of view, but that's the truth.
You have to understand that Israel isn't a democracy like the US, just like Singapore is very much different from the US but still a democracy. We need to manipulate between being a Jewish state and being a democracy and that sometimes create contrasts that lead to hurting the principles of democracy or the principles of a Jewish state.I don't get it. Isreal built settlements all over Palestine, but not claiming annexation, while can put military rule over it. When questioned about it, you simply siad "I don't know". Wouldn't that give the Palestinian a legit right to resist ?

Danik,

1. Original plan was for all of Israel, that is the entire thing on the map labeled palastine. Religously and historically the land the Jews recieved in the partition plan was garbage, it contained almost non of the religious centers and more than half was desert.
2. People in Israel disagree with the settlements, but there is a good 10-15% of the population that believes they have religious and historical right to the land, which they do, but as a democracy Israeli govt and the other 85-90% of the population dont want them to build anything there.

But yet, they are built with govt fundings.. and what has anything of this got to do with democracy about building settlements all over a foreign land ?

http://www.poica.org/maps/builtup.gif

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 08:12 AM

1. People in Israel disagree with the settlements, but there is a good 10-15% of the population that believes they have religious and historical right to the land, which they do, but as a democracy Israeli govt and the other 85-90% of the population dont want them to build anything there.

So much for democracy then.

In response to your post previously. I now understand where you are coming from. The central pivot to modern society, to you, is basically the creation of the UN charter, its as if prior to that all colonizing and ethnic cleansing was final and accepted. I mean do you not feel a country has the right to land that it wins in deffensive wars?

Dude, it's a piece of paper. The creation is not the important thing. The important thing is adherance to the rules. The whole fvcking POINT of the UN was to eradicate the causes of WW2. Take away the cause, no excuse for war.

This is something UN bashers totally overlook. Yes, the UN is a beauracratic, remote assembly, full of contradictions and paradoxes. But it's there for a reason. And when it's overlooked or ignored, you get worse results than when you behave in the spirit of what it was founded for.

If you ever read "From Beirut to Jeruslem" you will undersand the power of the media, while they make a picture of a soldier holding a teen in the WB front page material with no back story, the use of chemical weapons on Iranians by Iraqis is unmentioned, the massacre of 25K people in Syria, the fact that the shia muslims in Lebanon killed more palastinians in their time in Lebanon than did Israel,

OK. Read any Noam Chomsky? That guy knows more about media manipulation than both of us put together. The media is a tool... and the US media never calls them settlements, they are "neighbourhoods". Never calls the IDF soldiers in the West Bank invaders, they are always "coming under fire".

Good recent vid was posted on this, Peace Propaganda & The Promised Land;-

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=91804&highlight=Peace+Propaganda

Kaplanr

09-27-2006, 10:46 AM

Actually they aren't invaders. Israel attacked and conquered Jerusalem and the WB only after Jordan began shelling the "New City" or Jewish Jerusalem and other targets in Israel proper from Jordanian territory (West Bank.) They also began moving armor up from the Jordan Valley to Jerusalem.

What I'd like you to explain then, is all the Arab fuss and refusal to meet with Israel between 1948 and 1967, before the horrible, grotesque and flagrently illegal occupation began.

Even the reformed lefties amongst us are sitting around wondering how come there's never been an unequivocal official statement from the PA saying they recognise the two state solution. Gaza would have been an opportunity to demonstrate that they were capable of running a civil administration and pursuing statehood. Instead they dum hundreds of Kassems on us. **** em, they can live in squalor then.

Moledet

09-27-2006, 10:49 AM

I don't get it. Isreal built settlements all over Palestine, but not claiming annexation, while can put military rule over it. When questioned about it, you simply siad "I don't know". Wouldn't that give the Palestinian a legit right to resist ?

No, that land isn't theirs either. Very few of them have documents proving ownership over lands in the west bank and Gaza strip.
Since Israel conquered those areas and the owners of the land (Egypt and Jordan) didn't want it back it is allowed to sell those lands to Israeli citizens that later build their homes there (as long as it isn't a private pre-owned land).

As for the claim that 90% of the Israelis oppose settlements, that's BS. There isn't a majority within the nation for dismentling settlements because of the past experience (Gaza Strip).

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 10:56 AM

What I'd like you to explain then, is all the Arab fuss and refusal to meet with Israel between 1948 and 1967, before the horrible, grotesque and flagrently illegal occupation began.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Night_Squads

"One does not negotiate with terrorists". ;)

Why should they? Does a victim negotiate with a thief for return of stolen property? This is the Arab point of view.

Not that Arab points of view ever meant anything to Israel.

No, that land isn't theirs either. Very few of them have documents proving ownership over lands in the west bank and Gaza strip.
Since Israel conquered those areas and the owners of the land (Egypt and Jordan) didn't want it back it is allowed to sell those lands to Israeli citizens that later build their homes there (as long as it isn't a private pre-owned land).

Compare with UN charter. No, it wasn't legal, Israel is not allowed to sell the land on. It's not allowed to colonise it, and the rights and living conditions of the people are the responsibility of the Occupying Power.

Moledet

09-27-2006, 11:06 AM

Compare with UN charter. No, it wasn't legal, Israel is not allowed to sell the land on. It's not allowed to colonise it, and the rights and living conditions of the people are the responsibility of the Occupying Power.
Good for them, Israel is a sovereign nation that follows its laws. If our supreme court allows to sell that land according to the principles of democracy than we can sell it.

Palmach

09-27-2006, 11:07 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Night_Squads

"One does not negotiate with terrorists". ;)

Why should they? Does a victim negotiate with a thief for return of stolen property?

What does the link have to do with the quote? SNS was a British formed, British lead, and partially British staffed unit. It was an official paramilitary British detachment of which there have been numerous others throughout the empire. At the very best you can lay blame at the feet of he Colonial office.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 11:08 AM

Good for them, Israel is a sovereign nation that follows its laws. If our supreme court allows to sell that land according to the principles of democracy than we can sell it.

And if Israel ever gets toasted by the Arabs, that will be just as legal, by your reckoning.

Watching Israel is like watching a drunk drive over a cliff. It's avoidable but the drunk at the wheel just doesn't care.

EDIT: This is not what I WANT to happen. However, my ability to prevent it is limited.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 11:10 AM

What does the link have to do with the quote? SNS was a British formed, British lead, and partially British staffed unit. It was an official paramilitary British detachment of which there have been numerous others throughout the empire. At the very best you can lay blame at the feet of he Colonial office.

Oh no. SNS was formed of Jewish residents, trained by Brits, to terrorise the Arabs and keep them in line.

My point being, after you've been institutionally terrorised like that, there's no way you are going to negotiate.

Moledet

09-27-2006, 11:23 AM

And if Israel ever gets toasted by the Arabs, that will be just as legal, by your reckoning.

Watching Israel is like watching a drunk drive over a cliff. It's avoidable but the drunk at the wheel just doesn't care.

EDIT: This is not what I WANT to happen. However, my ability to prevent it is limited.
Yep, fair and square, if they win a war it's theirs.
Though, if they start killing all the civilians it will be a crime against humanity and I bet they will do this without anyone in the world caring much.

Moledet

09-27-2006, 11:25 AM

Oh no. SNS was formed of Jewish residents, trained by Brits, to terrorise the Arabs and keep them in line.

My point being, after you've been institutionally terrorised like that, there's no way you are going to negotiate.
Re-read history, you are talking nonsense.
First check what happend to the Jewish population in Israel by the Arabs in 1921, 1929 and 1933-1939.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 11:27 AM

Re-read history, you are talking nonsense.
First check what happend to the Jewish population in Israel by the Arabs in 1921, 1929 and 1933-1939.

In every case, Arabs had more fatalities. Averaged between 5 and 10 times more fatalities.

Some things haven't changed, eh?

EDIT: This "Israel is a tiny weak country" nonsense hasn't been true since 1948, when Israel was born. It's always been stronger than its neighbours and now resembles Goliath.

Moledet

09-27-2006, 11:30 AM

In every case, Arabs had more fatalities. Averaged between 5 and 10 times more fatalities.

Some things haven't changed, eh?
In every case? You mean like when they slaughthered all the Jewish population of Hebron that lived there for centuries, way before the Arabs?

Israel is a tiny country but it isn't weak, it used to be much weaker from its neighbours until the 80s when they lost all the backing of the Soviet Union.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 11:36 AM

In every case? You mean like when they slaughthered all the Jewish population of Hebron that lived there for centuries, way before the Arabs?

Year on year. The way you posted it. Not incident by incident.

Israel is a tiny country but it isn't weak, it used to be much weaker from its neighbours until the 80s when they lost all the backing of the Soviet Union.

Weak countries did not employ strategic bombers in the 1940s.

http://www.geocities.com/zkrisher/b-17g01.jpg

GiladS

09-27-2006, 11:53 AM

Weak countries did not employ strategic bombers in the 1940s.

http://www.geocities.com/zkrisher/b-17g01.jpg

4 B-17s devoid of guns or navigational gear bought amidst the War of Independence...

The Egyptians, for example, had already at the begining of the war over 30 Spitfires, 4 Hawker Hurricanes and 20 Douglas C-47s which were modified into bombers.

Kaplanr

09-27-2006, 11:54 AM

In every case, Arabs had more fatalities. Averaged between 5 and 10 times more fatalities.

Some things haven't changed, eh?

EDIT: This "Israel is a tiny weak country" nonsense hasn't been true since 1948, when Israel was born. It's always been stronger than its neighbours and now resembles Goliath.

And go back and see who was responsible for most of those fatalities, either the Mandatory power - including the SNS but not exclusively, or militias of the Mufti, and later of the Arab Higher Committee.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 11:56 AM

4 B-17s devoid of guns or navigational gear bought amidst the War of Independence...

Actually 3. One was impounded in the Azores. The 3 that made it were rigged with makeshift MG mounts and loaded with bombs in Czechoslovakia, and made bombing missions enroute to Israel. So don't give me this "devoid of guns and navigational gear" crap. They arrived tooled up.

The Egyptians, for example, had already at the begining of the war over 30 Spitfires, 4 Hawker Hurricanes and 20 Douglas C-47s which were modified into bombers.
But they didn't have logistics or ordnance to maintain them in the air or arm them after the first week.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 11:58 AM

And go back and see who was responsible for most of those fatalities, either the Mandatory power - including the SNS but not exclusively, or militias of the Mufti, and later of the Arab Higher Committee.

Dead men tell no tales. You expect Arabs to think that Arabs being killed while demonstrating is the Arabs fault?

jojo

09-27-2006, 12:05 PM

You might as well argue about giving America back to the Indians, Australia back to the Aboriginies, etc etc. Israel EXISTS. Hezbollah is the Provisional wing of Iran, and the former, encouraged by the latter forced Israel into a war they knew would result in many Lebanese casualties and, having little regard for human life they just didn't care. Until countries like Iran and Syria recognise the realities of today, and accept Israel's right to exist then there will never be a solution. It will never happen, of course, and so Israel will contiue to fight not a propoganda war, but a war for its very existence.

NimDod

09-27-2006, 12:06 PM

Actually 3. One was impounded in the Azores. The 3 that made it were rigged with makeshift MG mounts and loaded with bombs in Czechoslovakia, and made bombing missions enroute to Israel. So don't give me this "devoid of guns and navigational gear" crap. They arrived tooled up.

But they didn't have logistics or ordnance to maintain them in the air or arm them after the first week.

when you first said Israel was stronger then its enemies in the 1948 war, I thought you were joking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

I dont know if you take wikipedia as a reliable source, but I'd like to see any credible soucre that says Israel more/better weapons then its enemies.

GiladS

09-27-2006, 12:14 PM

Actually 3.

Thanks for the correction.

So don't give me this "devoid of guns and navigational gear" crap. They arrived tooled up

The three remaining B-17s remained in Czechoslovakia for three weeks during which attempts were made to acquire original turrets and equipment for the bare aircraft. These failed however, and the aircraft left for Israel on July 15th.

http://www.geocities.com/capecanaveral/hangar/2848/bomber1.htm

But they didn't have logistics or ordnance to maintain them in the air or arm them after the first week.

Really?

Any source to back that up?

SBL

09-27-2006, 12:20 PM

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 12:22 PM

Really?

Any source to back that up?

Just based on the observation that by week 3 both sides had resorted to flying bombing missions consisting of throwing hand grenades out of the "bombers".

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 12:25 PM

You might as well argue about giving America back to the Indians, Australia back to the Aboriginies, etc etc. Israel EXISTS.

But Israel signed up to the UN Charter which forbids colonisation of conquered terriroty.

It's not the fact that Israel exists that gets up my nose, it's the fact the Occupation of the West Bank is illegal under international obligations that Israel is supposed to be committed to.

The line was drawn, Israel crossed it.

Hezbollah is the Provisional wing of Iran, and the former, encouraged by the latter forced Israel into a war they knew would result in many Lebanese casualties and, having little regard for human life they just didn't care. Until countries like Iran and Syria recognise the realities of today, and accept Israel's right to exist then there will never be a solution. It will never happen, of course, and so Israel will contiue to fight not a propoganda war, but a war for its very existence.

Which is very true, it has nothing to do with my arguments here.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 12:26 PM

The three remaining B-17s remained in Czechoslovakia for three weeks during which attempts were made to acquire original turrets and equipment for the bare aircraft. These failed however, and the aircraft left for Israel on July 15th.

Misleading quote. They couldn't get original turrets, so they hand welded mounting brackets for hand held MGs.

They most certainly were bombed up however - they made bombing runs on the journed to Israel. Getting munitions into Israel for further missions was extremely difficult, at least in 1948.

Planes retired in 1956, last one scrapped in 1961.

SBL

09-27-2006, 12:28 PM

But Israel signed up to the UN Charter which forbids colonisation of conquered terriroty.

Isreal was essentially created by the UN. Creation of the Israeli state was one of, if not the first resolutions undertaken...I think.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 12:32 PM

when you first said Israel was stronger then its enemies in the 1948 war, I thought you were joking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

I dont know if you take wikipedia as a reliable source, but I'd like to see any credible soucre that says Israel more/better weapons then its enemies.

30,000 of the Israeli 1948 forces served in WW2. About 5,000 of those with the Jewish Brigade, rest with support and logistics services.

By comparison, only 5,000 of the Arabs fighting were veterans of any stripe. Only a couple of hundred were frontline infantry veterans.

Add in the volunteer brigades and it is clear that, in terms of fighting experience, Israel was streets ahead.

True, equipment and munitions were very limited on both sides. However, in terms of combat experience, military training, and most important, organisation, Israel was the stronger side.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 12:33 PM

Isreal was essentially created by the UN. Creation of the Israeli state was one of, if not the first resolutions undertaken...I think.

And which UN map of Israel shows the West Bank as Israeli territory?

Moledet

09-27-2006, 12:38 PM

SBL

09-27-2006, 12:40 PM

And which UN map of Israel shows the West Bank as Israeli territory?

The West Bank was officially Jordanian territory after the armistace agreement in 49. Israel "stole it, fair and square" in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 12:43 PM

Israelis, I think it's pretty much the time to end this discussion (at least about history).
He is obviously another conspiracy theorists believer and we all know that there's no point arguing with them.

That sir, is a lie. I take issue with Israel's occupation and colonisation of the West Bank. I take issue with misleading and misinterpreted information. I do not believe in a "conspiracy" regarding Israel, just misunderstanding, myths, and downright ignorance.

I would agree that it is pointless trying to defend the indefensible.

However, if anyone can correct my claims, feel free to post.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 12:45 PM

The West Bank was officially Jordanian territory after the armistace agreement in 49. Israel "stole it, fair and square" in the 1967 Arab-Israeli war.

And what do the 10 Commandmants say about stealing?

Or coveting neighbour's land, for that matter.

SBL

09-27-2006, 12:53 PM

And what do the 10 Commandmants say about stealing?

Or coveting neighbour's land, for that matter.

It was territory seized in war. That sort of thing has happened since the dawn of history. If you're going to bring in the bible/pentatook, then you have to consider when the Isarelites seized Canaan, or the spoils taken from various sacked cities, etc. Israel is not a theocracy, at any rate.

Hollis

09-27-2006, 01:09 PM

Israelis, I think it's pretty much the time to end this discussion (at least about history).
He is obviously another conspiracy theorists believer and we all know that there's no point arguing with them.

I agree with you, Some people are obsessively anti_Israel and that is just the way it is.

But I have notice there is a common element at times.

Any issue with Islam/Arabs becomes "defend Israel/Jews" in ten words or less.

Any other global issue becomes "defend G. Bush/USA" in ten words or less.

Regardless of the thread original direction.

Sort of like, "Do you think the sun will rise over Saudi Arabia?" becomes, those evil Jews/Israel occupiers of the "whatever".

Like this thread, Named, "Anti-War = Pro-Hizbullah".

The Political inbracement of some of the so called "anti-war-niks" with Hizbullah terrorists. A obvious oxymoronic position. Or is it.

I guess it depends on how who one define the WAR for whose perspective. So if the Anti-war people are actually pro-Hizbullah they are not anti- the war against terrorism, they actually oppose any action taken against Hizbullah. Sort of like the criminal calling their victim the criminal. IE: The rapist blaming the victim.

Sadly there are people who buy into that argument, as we have seen in this thread. It is not really the criminal's fault, the victim should not have "Fill in the blank".

Kaplanr

09-27-2006, 02:15 PM

But Israel signed up to the UN Charter which forbids colonisation of conquered terriroty.

It's not the fact that Israel exists that gets up my nose, it's the fact the Occupation of the West Bank is illegal under international obligations that Israel is supposed to be committed to.

The line was drawn, Israel crossed it.

Which is very true, it has nothing to do with my arguments here.

You never addressed the fact that Jordan initiated hostilities against Israel, from its territory (West Bank), after unifying its command structure under the UAR commander and participating in an extreme propaganda campaign advocating the military eradication of Israel. Thus spoke Hussein of Jordan:

"kill the Jews wherever you reach them. Kill them with your arms, kill them with your hands, with you finger nails, with your teeth."

So we came into posession of the territory "legally", it's the disposal that's been tough.

As to the War of Independence, no doubt we were better trained, had experience and made the best of what we did have. You can't deny that on paper, and with a little leadership (shudder, joint command) the Arab armies should have been able to choke us off. They didn't and the Palestinians pay the price.

jojo

09-27-2006, 02:19 PM

X2. Concisely put. I've been mulling over how to argue this point and you've just done it for me.
Many thanks.

jojo

09-27-2006, 02:47 PM

But Israel signed up to the UN Charter which forbids colonisation of conquered terriroty.

It's not the fact that Israel exists that gets up my nose, it's the fact the Occupation of the West Bank is illegal under international obligations that Israel is supposed to be committed to.

The line was drawn, Israel crossed it.

Which is very true, it has nothing to do with my arguments here.
Sorry, but it does. Israel is fighting for its very existence and to them UN resolutions must seem like so much hot air. What did the UN do to stop Iran and Syria from supplying arms to Hezbollah and Hamas ? Nothing. What did the UN do about disarming them? Nothing. What is the UN doing re sanctions against that maniac president of Iran who, God help us is seeking nuclear weapons, and calls for Israel to be wiped off the map? Nothing. So give me one good reason why Israel should take one bit of notice of UN resolutions.

Kaplanr

09-27-2006, 02:51 PM

Sorry, but it does. Israel is fighting for its very existence and to them UN resolutions must seem like so much hot air. What did the UN do to stop Iran and Syria from supplying arms to Hezbollah and Hamas ? Nothing. What did the UN do about disarming them? Nothing. What is the UN doing re sanctions against that maniac president of Iran who, God help us is seeking nuclear weapons, and calls for Israel to be wiped off the map? Nothing. So give me one good reason why Israel should take one bit of notice of UN resolutions.

Better yet, what did the UN do when Nasser said something to the affect of: "Get UNEF out of the way, I'm going to kill them."

Don't blame us because he couldn't cash the check he wrote. It's not our job to distinguish real bellicosity from playing to the street.

jojo

09-27-2006, 02:59 PM

Better yet, what did the UN do when Nasser said something to the affect of: "Get UNEF out of the way, I'm going to kill them."

Don't blame us because he couldn't cash the check he wrote. It's not our job to distinguish real bellicosity from playing to the street.
Please clarify! I don't speak American!

Kaplanr

09-27-2006, 03:05 PM

Please clarify! I don't speak American!

I'm backing up your arguments. In 1967 President Nasser ordered UNEF (the UN peacekeepers in Sinai since 56) out so he could confront Israel directly and not be accused of hiding behind UN skirts.

In retrospect, some historians will now say that Nasser and the UAR never really intended to go to war with Israel, and that the bellicose statements were for domestic consumption (playing to the Arab street). Of course he also closed the Straits of Tiran to Israel so he'd already committed an act of war.

jojo

09-27-2006, 03:12 PM

I'm backing up your arguments. In 1967 President Nasser ordered UNEF (the UN peacekeepers in Sinai since 56) out so he could confront Israel directly and not be accused of hiding behind UN skirts.

In retrospect, some historians will now say that Nasser and the UAR never really intended to go to war with Israel, and that the bellicose statements were for domestic consumption (playing to the Arab street). Of course he also closed the Straits of Tiran to Israel so he'd already committed an act of war.
Thanks for the clarification. And isn't it interesting to note that some are now saying exactly the same thing about the President of Iran? That he doesn't REALLY mean it when he calls for the destruction of Israel, but rather that it's for "home consumption". Circles within circles!

GiladS

09-27-2006, 04:10 PM

Just based on the observation that by week 3 both sides had resorted to flying bombing missions consisting of throwing hand grenades out of the "bombers".

Not good enough mate.

In fact I have only heard such stories about the Israeli side... and not with grenades but with soda bottles that emitted a strong blast sound that made the enemy believe he was being bombed.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 04:30 PM

Sadly there are people who buy into that argument, as we have seen in this thread. It is not really the criminal's fault, the victim should not have "Fill in the blank".

I state a belief and practise what I preach, and this is the sort of sh1t I don't have to put up with.

You are could have just thought "A bit odd but makes no difference", but no, you all have to seize the moral high ground and prove just how wrong I am.

And 5 pages of bollocks later, still the same sh1t.

It was territory seized in war. That sort of thing has happened since the dawn of history. If you're going to bring in the bible/pentatook, then you have to consider when the Isarelites seized Canaan, or the spoils taken from various sacked cities, etc. Israel is not a theocracy, at any rate.

Jews that don't care about the Law of Moses? Well then, no wonder Israel doesn't bother sticking to any sort of rules you are signed up to. You don't believe the word of your own holy book, so what's the point of sticking to the UN charter eh? Or the terms of all those US loans.

Well, oathbreakers you are, and as oathbreakers I will treat with you not. Unless someone can prove all of the above paragraphi wrong with reference to the Occupation of the West Bank since 1967.

You never addressed the fact that Jordan initiated hostilities against Israel, from its territory (West Bank), after unifying its command structure under the UAR commander and participating in an extreme propaganda campaign advocating the military eradication of Israel. Thus spoke Hussein of Jordan

That's your excuse for the Occupation, is it? "We got shelled so we robbed all their land".

"They were throwing stones. So we shot them."

Ever heard of proportional response? No, I guess that's not an Israeli habit.

Neither is humility or reconciliation. Or keeping your word.

Danik

09-27-2006, 04:36 PM

Hard to play basketball when your playing official rules and the other team is playing by prison rules.

Why is everything about Israel breaking the rules? You feel Arabs are just responding to______. What about the Israeli's, what do they respond to?

Talk about oathbreakers. you sell out the Czechs once, and then turn around and sell em out again. Didnt you hear! Argentina is now teaching its students that the UK has colonized the falklands, you brits are nothing but oathbreakers. Fancy Euro's carve up the whole world with rulers disregarding the people under their rule, and now complain about the situations into which they have placed those very same people.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 04:43 PM

Hard to play basketball when your playing official rules and the other team is playing by prison rules.

Tell me about it.

Why is everything about Israel breaking the rules? You feel Arabs are just responding to______. What about the Israeli's, what do they respond to?

Every post I make. Every reason I give.

Talk about oathbreakers. you sell out the Czechs once, and then turn around and sell em out again.

And the US was so fvcking keen to get involved they had to wait with their hands up their arse.

Didnt you hear! Argentina is now teaching its students that the UK has colonized the falklands, you brits are nothing but oathbreakers.

Yes, it's really terrible how we oppress the native Argentinian residents, raid their homes, arrest their leaders, and treat them like sh1t.

Oh wait, there aren't any. Never were any.

Fancy Euro's carve up the whole world with rulers disregarding the people under their rule, and now complain about the situations into which they have placed those very same people.

The POINT of setting up the UN was to

a) Hand back the colonies and make that route a no-go in future.

b) Resolve future conflicts.

Israel just doesn't see this. Well, blind people who cross boundaries tend to come off worst, Jack.

Danik

09-27-2006, 04:45 PM

Read any Noam Chomsky? That guy knows more about media manipulation than both of us put together. The media is a tool... and the US media never calls them settlements, they are "neighbourhoods". Never calls the IDF soldiers in the West Bank invaders, they are always "coming under fire".

Noam Chomsky is for people who love good writers/speakers like Chavez. Let me ask you question, do you go to you dermatologist and ask him to fill your cavities? So what exactly does a linguist know about situations in which he is not envolved, You think he knows more than Friedman the NYT lead correspondant in Beirut for 10 years?

One: They always call them settlements, maybe your old and senile and remembering the 60s, but since the day I turned on the tv and learned english they have been refered to as settlements.

Two.Invaders? WTF. Who calls people invaders, even saddam invaded kuwait, he was an occupier, invaders are from mars. It would be ridiculous for a responsible news source to call people invaders, they call IDF occupying force, are you that caught up in the BS to think they have to refer to them as blood thirsty invader vampires, and the suicide bombers are supposed to be called freedom fighter hero martyrs.

Danik

09-27-2006, 04:48 PM

The POINT of setting up the UN was to

a) Hand back the colonies and make that route a no-go in future.

b) Resolve future conflicts.

Israel just doesn't see this. Well, blind people who cross boundaries tend to come off worst, Jack.

Hand back colonies to whom may I ask? Who was the ruler of the Arab lands in your opinon? And who made them Arab lands?

Resolve conflicts? You gotta be ****tting me. If any thing the borders which they created in in African countries and the Arab states are intentionaly designed to creat conflict, rather than resolve it. Healthy everyone else=not good for Europe, loss of power, prestige.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 04:58 PM

Noam Chomsky is for people who love good writers/speakers like Chavez. Let me ask you question, do you go to you dermatologist and ask him to fill your cavities? So what exactly does a linguist know about situations in which he is not envolved, You think he knows more than Friedman the NYT lead correspondant in Beirut for 10 years?

He INVENTED linguistics. Read my post again. Regardless of his views, he could just teach you something about the usage and abusage of language.

Or don't you study experts in order to learn? I'll take knowledge from anywhere.

One: They always call them settlements, maybe your old and senile and remembering the 60s, but since the day I turned on the tv and learned english they have been refered to as settlements.

I refer you again to the thread. If you don't want to watch the video, I can't force you to.

Two.Invaders? WTF. Who calls people invaders, even saddam invaded kuwait, he was an occupier, invaders are from mars. It would be ridiculous for a responsible news source to call people invaders, they call IDF occupying force, are you that caught up in the BS to think they have to refer to them as blood thirsty invader vampires, and the suicide bombers are supposed to be called freedom fighter hero martyrs.

"We are the aggressors". David Ben Gurion.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 05:08 PM

Hand back colonies to whom may I ask?

The inhabitants of the former colonies.

Who was the ruler of the Arab lands in your opinon?

Any Arab land in particular or just in general? ;)

Ask a silly question, get a silly answer.

And who made them Arab lands?

Same condition that made the Bible Belt. It's the people that live there that categorise which lands are what.

Resolve conflicts? You gotta be ****tting me. If any thing the borders which they created in in African countries and the Arab states are intentionaly designed to creat conflict, rather than resolve it. Healthy everyone else=not good for Europe, loss of power, prestige.

Right. So after the great carve up of post WW1, an organisation gets formed to try and resolve the disputes.

And does it work if nobody gives a damn about the rules? No.

The US was determined at the beginning, to use the UN as a force for positive change. Remember Suez? No, neither do I. But the principles of the UN were firmly enforced at that time.

Where did the US lose its way? Why did the US lose its way? Not my business really, something for you to chew over and think about.

I'm outta this thread. I started off as a peaceful protester who would never dream of helping the violent.

Now I'm cast as a nasty old terrorist appeaser just because I say that Israeli behaviour stinks.

Thank you. Good night.

EDIT: One concession. My views on the West Bank, Israeli policy etc stay in this thread. I am not going to bring up the subject in any other current or future threads. Flame bait is still flame bait.

jojo

09-27-2006, 05:19 PM

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 05:22 PM

Has anyone else noticed a pattern in "Crudy's" responses?. He postulates an arguement. He is shot down in flames. He says "I didn't really mean that, what I meant was -----". Cruddy, you are either anti-semitic (which is fine if you are honest about it), or your arguements are specious and you are seeking effect. Which is it? I have my theories!!

Maybe I just don't like to support oppression? It is not my fault if posters assume I am calling for the destruction of Israel. I am protesting at the Occupation. Different thing.

I haven't seen many arguments shot down in flames either. And it's interesting to note that some Israelis think like I do - are you going to call them anti-semitic as well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refusenik_(Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refusenik_%28Israel))

Danik

09-27-2006, 05:26 PM

Maybe I just don't like to support oppression? It is not my fault if posters assume I am calling for the destruction of Israel. I am protesting at the Occupation. Different thing.

I haven't seen many arguments shot down in flames either. And it's interesting to note that some Israelis think like I do - are you going to call them anti-semitic as well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refusenik_(Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refusenik_%28Israel))

Thats doesnt lead anywhere.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 05:29 PM

Thats doesnt lead anywhere.

Weird. Appears to have just been nuked. Lucky I have it open on a seperate browser window.

Refusenik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refusenik) (in Hebrew (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language): סרבן read sar-van) is used by Israeli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli) soldiers and reservists who refuse to serve in the occupied territories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories), in protest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest) against Israel's actions in the West Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank) and the Gaza Strip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip). Recently, the term was also used to describe soldiers who refuse to remove Israeli settlements (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settlements) from the West Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank) and the Gaza Strip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip). [edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Refusenik_%28Israel%29&action=edit&section=1)]

The refusnik letter

Their letter "Courage to Refuse" got 550 signatures. "Courage to Refuse" text:
We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.
We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.
We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.
We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.
We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.
We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.
We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.
We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.
The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d4/Flag_of_Israel.svg/30px-Flag_of_Israel.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_Israel.svg) This Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel)-related article is a stub (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Perfect_stub_article). You can help (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Find_or_fix_a_stub) Wikipedia by expanding it (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Refusenik_%28Israel%29&action=edit).

Danik

09-27-2006, 05:37 PM

I'm outta this thread. I started off as a peaceful protester who would never dream of helping the violent.

Now I'm cast as a nasty old terrorist appeaser just because I say that Israeli behaviour stinks.

If you said all that, it would have ended there. You said Israeli behaviour stinks, your only opinon on the Arabs is " I dont support violence". You seem to know a whole lot about Israel and its policies, from what you say they are always in the wrong, and the arabs: "I dont support violence".

Can you admit, at least, that the only reason you give a flying fcuk about the situation is because it has been hammered in your brain for so many years, by...the media. There are places in this world in far worse condionts than Palastine. Ghettos in America have more just cause for complaint than Arabs do, as do the Native Americans, their struggle is not on TV. Darfur, Rawanda, Chechnya, Somalia,etc... Although you might care, I seriously doubt you go to the lengths you do for Israel, when the subject comes up.

Danik

09-27-2006, 05:39 PM

Weird. Appears to have just been nuked. Lucky I have it open on a seperate browser window.

I agree. You agree. Now lets get Hamas to do so.woot

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 05:41 PM

If you said all that, it would have ended there. You said Israeli behaviour stinks, your only opinon on the Arabs is " I dont support violence". You seem to know a whole lot about Israel and its policies, from what you say they are always in the wrong, and the arabs: "I dont support violence".

Can you admit, at least, that the only reason you give a flying fcuk about the situation is because it has been hammered in your brain for so many years, by...the media. There are places in this world in far worse condionts than Palastine.

You have obviously never been Bedu.

Would you rather I did support the terrorists? I've got some skills they could surely abuse.

Was actually offered to apply for the Institute. Thought about it, didn't tie in with my beliefs.

I have been defending my beliefs. If others attack yours, you would defend them too.

Danik

09-27-2006, 05:45 PM

[quote=CruddyLeper;1956022]You have obviously never been Bedu.
is that something I dont know about, or is that read bed u, cause its only 4:45pm here.

Was actually offered to join the Institute. Thought about it, didn't tie in with my beliefs.
Whats the insitute?

How about this: All other disputes aside, if the PA came to negotiate with Israel on the creation of a palastinian state on its current territory, then Israel will not have any excuses for occupation.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 05:46 PM

PM for you Danik. I promised not to discuss in open fora. But it was a big compliment.

I don't think Israel is really ready for a negotiated settlement. The Palestinians certainly aren't.

It comes down to control over movement, both overland and airspace. Both sides want to be able to breathe free... which means keeping your boot on the other guys neck.

There are no easy outs at this stage. Things have gone too far for that.

jojo

09-27-2006, 06:31 PM

Cruddy, one or two points --the 1983 bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut (242 dead). The 1988 Pan-Am bombing (259 dead). The 1998 bombings of US embassies in Nairobi and Dar Es Salam (291 dead, and 5000 wounded). The Beslan school incident (344 dead). The Madrid train bombings, the London bombings, the bombings in Bombay (Mumbai) (200 dead). You want me to go on? Can you not get your head around the fact that we are facing the greatest threat to peace that this world has ever known? A threat from a society who believe that death is a good thing, and a reward? We are at war with people who make Hitler look like a kindergarten nanny! Israel is simply a focus point. The real agenda is the Islamification of the world. For f--ks sake, these people have no interest in negotiation. It's simply another tool to them. And it is "apologists" like you who give them the oxygen of publicity. You cannot debate with someone who has a fixed mentality. You cannot debate with someone whose mind is already made up. If they win in Israel due to the attitude of people like you, then the "war" is lost before it really begins. You are allowing your anti-semitism to cloud your judgement of the bigger picture.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 06:44 PM

Cruddy, one or two points --the 1983 bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut (242 dead). The 1988 Pan-Am bombing (259 dead). The 1998 bombings of US embassies in Nairobi and Dar Es Salam (291 dead, and 5000 wounded). The Beslan school incident (344 dead). The Madrid train bombings, the London bombings, the bombings in Bombay (Mumbai) (200 dead). You want me to go on? Can you not get your head around the fact that we are facing the greatest threat to peace that this world has ever known?

None of those have anything to do with the West Bank... which is really the greatest threat to peace the world is currently facing.

I, an apologist? I'm a boycotter of Israeli goods, for which I get hammered by you lot.

Next you'll be calling me a cheese eating surrender monkey, just because I'm not interested in "your" war.

I've had a Muslim body turn up on my doorstep. His crime was to dress in traditional Pakistani clothes. Does that not make me involved in the GWOT?

Or more properly, mass hysteria about Muslims?

Danik

09-27-2006, 07:02 PM

None of those have anything to do with the West Bank... which is really the greatest threat to peace the world is currently facing.

Sorry to intervene but if the occupation isnt causing all those attacks, than why would it be threat to peace in the world. It would only be threat to peace in Israel.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 07:06 PM

Sorry to intervene but if the occupation isnt causing all those attacks, than why would it be threat to peace in the world. It would only be threat to peace in Israel.

Because dude, if Israel doesn't pull out, sooner or later it's going to get nuked.

Israeli policy on this - if we get nuked, we nuke everybody else. So make sure we don't get nuked or you're all dead.

Which is in the US interest - Europe and the ME are a smoking ash pile, US is untouched.

Danik

09-27-2006, 07:15 PM

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 07:25 PM

Because dude, if Israel doesn't pull out, sooner or later it's going to get nuked.

Thats an assumption and a wild one, you seriously think theres going to be peace when Israel leaves the WB, the people threatning Israel right now that may have nukes dont want WB to be free, they want Israel gone.

You seriously think that if Israel stays there it won't get nuked?

Pulling out is only one part of a possible win all around end game. Most possibilities end in catastrophe.

What you mean is that when Israel finally leaves the WB for good, and then the arabs are still attacking, then finally you will change your mind, and switch the channel.

Somewhat stupid comment as I don't own a TV set. I am not a channel surfer by choice.

Well at least its a deterant, not from attack, but at least Nuke attack. If Iran did nuke Israel, would that prove to you that they really dont give a sh-t about the people, since they will kill millions of Arabs in the process?

You are misreading the situation. Iran is articulating what a lot of Muslims have been thinking for decades.

Iran has no nukes. But who is to say that they will not become an option for terrorists, with or without Irans help? That is the end goal for such people.

And why? Because Israel has been Occupying etc etc etc.

It is not in the US interest to have their trading partners wipped out all over the world.

Trading partners? Try creditors. ;) The US does more busines with China than any single European country.

Besides which, Europe has this awkward tendency to sqwark about human rights, something that isn't a problem doing business with China.

So which is the preferred partner?

China of course. They make it, you consume it. No moralistic strings attached.

EDIT: Hypothetical of course. However, I can't really see why Europe has ever been in the US interest. I also cannot see a logical reason for the continued Occupation. Either there is no good reason (in which case I am right) or their is a veiled conspiracy. Now, I don't go for the conspiracy.

Stupidity is a much more likely reason.

Danik

09-27-2006, 09:10 PM

You seriously think that if Israel stays there it won't get nuked?

It shouldnt get nuked in any event, as nuking Israel means the death of just as many arabs as jews.

Somewhat stupid comment as I don't own a TV set. I am not a channel surfer by choice.

My point being if your theory fails, you can just say o well, and continue on with your life.

You are misreading the situation. Iran is articulating what a lot of Muslims have been thinking for decades.

I have been hearing alot of "misreading", Death to the Jews apparently just mean the Zionists who are reserve soldiers, who are between 18-45for men and 18-35 for women, but not if the women are pregnant cause then they cant be soldiers, and the zionist supporters, etc same deal with death to america, sorry hes not convincing anyone, exept maybe you. Iran is not articulating anything, if you seriously think that Arab states give 2 sh-ts about palis, than you are crazier than ahmedenjad. They have proven time and time again to act in the opposite of Pali demands and have killed more of them than Israel. Like Hezbollah whos such a big fan of libirating palastine, yet they themselves killed 3K palis in a 3 year span.

The situation in Israel perpatuates the power of the Arab leaders, they are dictators, and will continue to do as they please as long as they have an outside enemy to direct their public at. Iran is trying to get power over the Shia's in the entire ME, they are power hungry and want influence and money, in the ME death to america/israel is like political candidates saying they will cut taxes. They dont intend to act on their word.

Trading partners? Try creditors. ;) The US does more busines with China than any single European country.

Besides which, Europe has this awkward tendency to sqwark about human rights, something that isn't a problem doing business with China.

So which is the preferred partner?

China of course. They make it, you consume it. No moralistic strings attached.

Your right, send me a pm when Im president so I can give the nuke Europe order.

I also cannot see a logical reason for the continued Occupation. Either there is no good reason (in which case I am right) or their is a veiled conspiracy.

Good point, just like neither you nor I know what Ahmenasshat is planning. Its not a conspiracy as to why Israel holds the land. There are plenty of politcal, religious, economic, and etc reasons. Just like there are reasons for everything in this world.

CruddyLeper

09-27-2006, 09:12 PM

Palmach

09-28-2006, 12:51 AM

Oh no. SNS was formed of Jewish residents, trained by Brits, to terrorise the Arabs and keep them in line.

My point being, after you've been institutionally terrorised like that, there's no way you are going to negotiate.

That is just factually incorrect. SNS had an all-British officer corps (for example, W's deputy Humphrey Edgar Nicholson Bredin) and partally british NCO contigent. They took orders from the British Army command in Palestine and worked in conjunction with CID. This info has been well documented in books published by former SNS offecers as well as scholarly research. For instance, Segev mentions one instance of drunken british personel attached to the SNS sacking an arab village.

You also refuse to accept the fact that SNS was formed not to "terrorise" the arabs, but to protect the Haifa pipeline, which was the being constantly bombed by mufti's people. The inability of the local guards to prevent uninterrupted supply of oil was the only reason General Haining agreed to give W. the free hand he was looking for. SNS took no part in defending the Jewish communities or persons other then as part of defending the pipeline.

You further refuse to admit that this took place years into the third arab revolt, each marked by ever more intense compaigns of terrorism against the british targets and the jewish population.

The attempts at painting a one-sided picture are silly, the lack of familiarity with historical facts of the issue debated is alarming.

CruddyLeper

09-28-2006, 03:27 AM

That is just factually incorrect. SNS had an all-British officer corps (for example, W's deputy Humphrey Edgar Nicholson Bredin) and partally british NCO contigent. They took orders from the British Army command in Palestine and worked in conjunction with CID. This info has been well documented in books published by former SNS offecers as well as scholarly research. For instance, Segev mentions one instance of drunken british personel attached to the SNS sacking an arab village.

You also refuse to accept the fact that SNS was formed not to "terrorise" the arabs, but to protect the Haifa pipeline, which was the being constantly bombed by mufti's people. The inability of the local guards to prevent uninterrupted supply of oil was the only reason General Haining agreed to give W. the free hand he was looking for. SNS took no part in defending the Jewish communities or persons other then as part of defending the pipeline.

You further refuse to admit that this took place years into the third arab revolt, each marked by ever more intense compaigns of terrorism against the british targets and the jewish population.

The attempts at painting a one-sided picture are silly, the lack of familiarity with historical facts of the issue debated is alarming.

Yes, factually incorrect on my part.

You have failed to acknowledge any wrongdoing on the part of the Jews either.

Factually incorrect on your part.

"Israelis are cuddly creatures, we never did no one any harm. Honest."

People are people. Half angel half ape. Not full angel.

No one even mentioned the SNS until I brought it up... remember, they were disbanded in 1938.

In other words, having trainied the personnel, Brits just turned them loose and let them get on with the "job" of terror.

Or did they all enter a monastery in 1938? :fork:

Anyway, all this talk of "the good old days" misses the point. I simply don't think it's a wise idea to support colonisation or oppression in the 21st century. That's all. It's not going to provide a solution, it's not going to make the problems go away.

The Palestinians need a home. All of them. Until they get that, there is no end to the violence.

Where there are unjust laws, there is chaos and disorder. Only with justice and balance as a foundation can you get peace.

Palmach

09-28-2006, 07:38 AM

Yes, factually incorrect on my part.

You have failed to acknowledge any wrongdoing on the part of the Jews either.

If you noticed, I have not taken part in the spirited discussion you've been having on the subject of Jewish terrorism or the rightiousness of Israeli cause, in part because I find these exchanges tiresome and pointless. I've corrected your clearly erronious attempt to painting SNS as either a Jewish organisation or a terrorist one. In that context I am under no obligation of acknowledge anything.

No one even mentioned the SNS until I brought it up... remember, they were disbanded in 1938.

In other words, having trainied the personnel, Brits just turned them loose and let them get on with the "job" of terror.

Exactly, you've brought them up because you were unfamiliar with the facts. Otherwise you'd mention some authentically Jewish groups, rather then a british formation. In 1938 SNS has been disbanded partially because of the distrust between the British HQ and W, and in part because the attacks on the pipeline and the rebellion itself have subsided dramatically. To accuse the former SNS personal of turning to terrorism is quite rich, given that they were by and large the product of JA and Palmach. Do be so kind as to site specific persons or we'll write off this statement of yours as another instance of unfamiliarity with the material.

Anyway, all this talk of "the good old days" misses the point. I simply don't think it's a wise idea to support colonisation or oppression in the 21st century. That's all. It's not going to provide a solution, it's not going to make the problems go away.

The Palestinians need a home. All of them. Until they get that, there is no end to the violence.

Where there are unjust laws, there is chaos and disorder. Only with justice and balance as a foundation can you get peace.

1. You are the one who brought up the old days
2. There is nothing colonialist about the Israeli enterprise which is clear to anyone familiar with the above mentioned old days
3. The need for Palestinian homeland is a loaded question which can be debated as soon as we put to rest silly historical misconceptions.
4. I am not big on platitudes or chants in the style of "kumbaya my lord". Lets stick to the factual info and leave the slogans of "no justice no peace" to the liberal arts majors.