Marines destroy mosque in Fallujah, witnesses say many dead

[Skullknight]

Mosque Hit During Fighting in Fallujah

FALLUJAH, Iraq - U.S. forces battling Sunni insurgents in this violent city apparently hit a mosque filled with people Wednesday, and witnesses said as many as 40 people were killed.

It was unclear what hit the mosque. Until that incident, reports showed at least 30 Americans and more than 150 Iraqis were dead in the fighting for the city.

Anti-American violence intensified and spread to cities in northern Iraq on Wednesday as a U.S. helicopter went down and a Marine commander confirmed 12 of his men had been killed in fighting west of Baghdad.

Link (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040407/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=716)

[Skullknight]

Sorry, that report was a bit presumptious. According to Sky News the mosque was filled with insurgents.

[UkrainianAmerican]

About freaking time. One less sniper spot for dem insurgents.

[Mechanical Ambush]

They can run, but they can't hide! :fork:


Just reading the response's..............you can tell who hasn't been in combat.............there are NO rules, not even in Geneva.

[duck]

Helicopter attack with three missiles.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Seems like we are finally taking the fcuking gloves off.

[Gringo]

One thing the media is failing to report is whether the "Iraqis" are combatents or civillians.
"40 Iraqis killed" is not detailed enough of who they are.

But the destruction of the Mosque was not a good idea, it adds fuel that americans are "anti-muslim".
In either case, I think the coaltion is f***ed.

[UkrainianAmerican]

One thing the media is failing to report is whether the "Iraqis" are combatents or civillians.
"40 Iraqis killed" is not detailed enough of who they are.

But the destruction of the Mosque was not a good idea, it adds fuel that americans are "anti-muslim".
In either case, I think the coaltion is f***ed.
Shooting from a mosque kinda de-holifies it.
Under geneva convention if there is an anticraft gun on top of a hospital its a legitimate target for bombing. I assume if there are machine guns in the mosque firing at the Marines, they have the right to blow it to bits.

[Gringo]

One thing the media is failing to report is whether the "Iraqis" are combatents or civillians.
"40 Iraqis killed" is not detailed enough of who they are.

But the destruction of the Mosque was not a good idea, it adds fuel that americans are "anti-muslim".
In either case, I think the coaltion is f***ed.
Shooting from a mosque kinda de-holifies it.
Under geneva convention if there is an anticraft gun on top of a hospital its a legitimate target for bombing. I assume if there are machine guns in the mosque firing at the Marines, they have the right to blow it to bits.

I didn't say that it is not allowed, I said that it is not a good idea. However, it seems the **** has really hit the fan now.

[S'13]

But the destruction of the Mosque was not a good idea, it adds fuel that americans are "anti-muslim".


Sure it's not good but what can you do when the so called "freedom fighting Muslims" are using thier houses of worship as firing positions?

[Maciek]

One thing the media is failing to report is whether the "Iraqis" are combatents or civillians.
"40 Iraqis killed" is not detailed enough of who they are.

But the destruction of the Mosque was not a good idea, it adds fuel that americans are "anti-muslim".
In either case, I think the coaltion is f***ed.
Shooting from a mosque kinda de-holifies it.
Under geneva convention if there is an anticraft gun on top of a hospital its a legitimate target for bombing. I assume if there are machine guns in the mosque firing at the Marines, they have the right to blow it to bits.

convince to this iraqis
I bet they do not know what it is a geneva convention

[Gringo]

But the destruction of the Mosque was not a good idea, it adds fuel that americans are "anti-muslim".


Sure it's not good but what can you do when the so called "freedom fighting Muslims" are using thier houses of worship as firing positions?

read the post above mate.

[Soulhunter]

well, imagine you were under attack from muslims in your country, wouldn't you take refuge in a church because a. the attacker wouldn't dare to bomb it or b. if he does that would cause an outcry of your fellow believers?

it may be militarily right to bomb the mosque but if it's wise, that's a different story. if you destroy one mosque (for whatever legitimate reasons!) that sparks a whole new fury, that ignites even more hatred, also in moderate people.

this story ain't over yet ...

[UkrainianAmerican]

One thing the media is failing to report is whether the "Iraqis" are combatents or civillians.
"40 Iraqis killed" is not detailed enough of who they are.

But the destruction of the Mosque was not a good idea, it adds fuel that americans are "anti-muslim".
In either case, I think the coaltion is f***ed.
Shooting from a mosque kinda de-holifies it.
Under geneva convention if there is an anticraft gun on top of a hospital its a legitimate target for bombing. I assume if there are machine guns in the mosque firing at the Marines, they have the right to blow it to bits.

convince to this iraqis
I bet they do not know what it is a geneva convention
Thats THEIR problem. The insurgents started this **** a YEAR after the war is over. WE will finish it for them.

[UkrainianAmerican]

well, imagine you were under attack from muslims in your country, wouldn't you take refuge in a church because a. the attacker wouldn't dare to bomb it or b. if he does that would cause an outcry of your fellow believers?

it may be militarily right to bomb the mosque but if it's wise, that's a different story. if you destroy one mosque (for whatever legitimate reasons!) that sparks a whole new fury, that ignites even more hatred, also in moderate people.

this story ain't over yet ...
I would never seek refuge in a synagogue without expecting it to be stormed, rightfully so. Doing otherwise is hypocritical.

[Gringo]

Under geneva convention if there is an anticraft gun on top of a hospital its a legitimate target for bombing.

But u still don't bomb it as it is a hospital and would not go down well with the civillians and the rest of the world.

[DPGLAW]

Thank God....we finally are taking these murderous rags out. They hide behind their religon and don't want us bombing mosques, yet they are hiding weapons in them. To me that makes them a fair target. On top of that these retarted clerics aren't preaching religion, they are using their "sermons" (not sure of the right term) to promote attacks on our and other coalition soldiers.

I say start blowing up all the mosques, we shouldn't just stop there in Fallujah, we should just level the entire city. We are losing soldiers there every day to the worthless people. If we kill every last one of them I think there will be less dead soldiers because the rest of the country will be scared ****less that we will level their city if the kill an American. I know that this will anger many of these people but they deserve it and who cares if they don't like it? The UN, France, etc.....all bodies that no one gives a **** about their opinion

[UkrainianAmerican]

Under geneva convention if there is an anticraft gun on top of a hospital its a legitimate target for bombing.

But u still don't bomb it as it is a hospital and would not go down well with the civillians and the rest of the world.
The deaths are on the people who placed the AA guns on a hospital. They are a hundred percent responsible.
Same here. The militants destroyed the mosque.

[Soulhunter]

Yes, blow everything up! That'll help greatly!!! :roll:

[HELEX]

From Geneva Convention:


places of worship

Acts of hostility towards places of worship in international conflicts are prohibited. Places of worship may not be used in support of the military effort, and they cannot be the objects of reprisals. (Protocol I, Art. 53)

These prohibitions also apply in non-international conflicts. (Protocol II, Art. 16)

If there is any doubt as to whether a place of worship is being used to help the military action, then it will be presumed not to be so used. (Protocol I, Art. 52, Sec. 3)

Attacks against places of worship are grave breaches against the Geneva Convention. (Protocol I, Art. 85, Sec. 4)

[Soulhunter]

russianamerican: the problem is the people won't see it that way! they see it as the christian crusader bombing an islamic mosque. whether you like or admit it or not, that's the way things are viewed down there.

[Gringo]

Under geneva convention if there is an anticraft gun on top of a hospital its a legitimate target for bombing.

But u still don't bomb it as it is a hospital and would not go down well with the civillians and the rest of the world.
The deaths are on the people who placed the AA guns on a hospital. They are a hundred percent responsible.
Same here. The militants destroyed the mosque.

But u don't sink to there level of morality by actually bombing, so they can bring out their Information Minister and say "the infidels bombed a hospital! This is clear evidence that the infidels must die" etc etc.

[UkrainianAmerican]

From Geneva Convention:


places of worship

Acts of hostility towards places of worship in international conflicts are prohibited. Places of worship may not be used in support of the military effort, and they cannot be the objects of reprisals. (Protocol I, Art. 53)

These prohibitions also apply in non-international conflicts. (Protocol II, Art. 16)

If there is any doubt as to whether a place of worship is being used to help the military action, then it will be presumed not to be so used. (Protocol I, Art. 52, Sec. 3)

Attacks against places of worship are grave breaches against the Geneva Convention. (Protocol I, Art. 85, Sec. 4)


Are you a dumbass? (dont answer that)
That same Convention nullifies this rule if people are FIRING from it.
Stupid tool.

[Tengu]

Under geneva convention if there is an anticraft gun on top of a hospital its a legitimate target for bombing.

But u still don't bomb it as it is a hospital and would not go down well with the civillians and the rest of the world.That is for the militairy to decide.

[UkrainianAmerican]

russianamerican: the problem is the people won't see it that way! they see it as the christian crusader bombing an islamic mosque. whether you like or admit it or not, that's the way things are viewed down there.
Well, if we treat them like immature kids they will never grow up.

[Soulhunter]

russianamerican: but if you don't have a better place to hide, a synagogue would be the best and most controversial place to hide. I'm sure the insurgents know that they can be fired upon. But they'll probably prefer being killed in a mosque with the consequences that has than be killed on the street or wherever

[Gringo]

Under geneva convention if there is an anticraft gun on top of a hospital its a legitimate target for bombing.

But u still don't bomb it as it is a hospital and would not go down well with the civillians and the rest of the world.That is for the militairy to decide.

IT STILL DOES NOT MAKE IT MORALLY RIGHT!!!!

[UkrainianAmerican]

russianamerican: but if you don't have a better place to hide, a synagogue would be the best and most controversial place to hide. I'm sure the insurgents know that they can be fired upon. But they'll probably prefer being killed in a mosque with the consequences that has than be killed on the street or wherever
Theres a difference between hiding in a place of worship (cowardly as it is) and ENGAGING the troops using the place of worship as a cover.

[Tengu]

IT STILL DOES NOT MAKE IT MORALLY RIGHT!!!!2 bad.

Depends on it strategic value.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Under geneva convention if there is an anticraft gun on top of a hospital its a legitimate target for bombing.

But u still don't bomb it as it is a hospital and would not go down well with the civillians and the rest of the world.That is for the militairy to decide.

IT STILL DOES NOT MAKE IT MORALLY RIGHT!!!!
But it is the terrorists who are at fault to BEGIN with. The bombing is just a direct consequence.

[Soulhunter]

russianamerican: again, try to look it from the other side for once, imagine your country being invaded (justified or injustified, doesn't matter), wouldn't you try to defend it or insurge against the occupiers? the US have to kill thousands of Iraqis if they want to impose their 'peace' ... they don't see the US behavior as liberation

[Gringo]

There's no point arguing about it now, what has happened has happened and cannot be undone.

[Soulhunter]

russianamerican: the bombing is a consequence of the insurgence which is the consequence of the US-led war which is the consequence of Bush being pissed off etc ... that reasoning is futile

[Gringo]

Tengu and RussianAmerican; u have a lot to learn.

[UkrainianAmerican]

russianamerican: the bombing is a consequence of the insurgence which is the consequence of the US-led war which is the consequence of Bush being pissed off etc ... that reasoning is futile
Which is a consequence of SADDAM BEING A **** ABOUT disclosing the WMD info.
As for what I would do If my coutnry would be invaded, whatever I would do, I wouldnt be an asshole and hide in a church or synagoge and then snipe at the enemy.

[Soulhunter]

how can you be so sure? so you would confront them in the street like John Wayne? you against a gunship? my a** ...

[UkrainianAmerican]

how can you be so sure? so you would confront them in the street like John Wayne? you against a gunship? my a** ...
I wouldnt use civilians or bildings of worship as cover.
Shame on you if you wouldve.
Guerilla warfare doesnt mean hiding behid women and childran.

[Soulhunter]

I didn't say I would. I can't say what I would do, I've never been in a guerilla situation. I would not take human shields, apart from that ... I can't say.

[UkrainianAmerican]

I didn't say I would. I can't say what I would do, I've never been in a guerilla situation. I would not take human shields, apart from that ... I can't say.
Yeah exactly. By hiding in a mosque you are using all the ppl there at the time as cover.

[S'13]

Gringo, what you don't seem to understand is that the men of the coalition forces who are fighting on the ground don't have the luxury we have to ponder weather they should hit the mosque or not since they have to make split second decisions.
When a commander is facing a situation in which combatants are using a house of worship as a position and could use this position in order to fire on his men and hiting that house of worship could mean saving the lives of his men but on the other hand stain the name of the coalition what do you think he will choose?
One thing is for sure, I don't envy the man who has to make that kind of a decision.

[American Patriot]

I'll say good shootin'. The Marines are there to destroy the al-Sadr Shiite militia, not to pussyfoot around.

I bet those insurgents inside didn't think we'd have the balls to destroy a mosque.

[foxtrot023]

The bad thing about the mosque is that it will be used as propaganda, and the majority of iraqis and other muslims (not being a sofisticated bunch) will buy it. wait and see Aljazzera saying ¨americans destroy mosque¨. Personally, hunt the militias down, they were firing from the mosque, they got what they deserve.

Regards

[mustamato]

What the arab (moslem) world thinks: http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

[Soulhunter]

As for the milita being a small movement:
*************************************
Many supporters

U.S. officials say al-Sadr's support is isolated and estimate the number of people in his private army at 3,000. But as Tuesday's display of force showed, there were thousands of men and boys in one Baghdad neighborhood alone ready to fight for al-Sadr.

And as battles raged throughout the country, in Sunni bastions such as Fallujah and Ramadi and Shiite areas like Sadr City, it was growing increasingly clear that the militias could materialize almost instantaneously, apparently from thin air.

While many people - bakers, teachers, sandwich makers - may hold normal jobs, when the call comes, they instantly line up with Sadr's force, the Mahdi Army.

"This man is not a firefighter," said Lt. Mohammed Abu Kadar, tapping one of his men on the shoulder outside a fire station in Khadamiya. "He is Mahdi Army."

"This man, too," the lieutenant, a two-star officer of the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps, said, grabbing another firefighter. "He may wear this uniform, but he is Mahdi Army."

Then the lieutenant tapped his own chest.

"We may work for the government now," Kadar said. "But if anything happens, we all work for Sadr."

[Tengu]

Tengu and RussianAmerican; u have a lot to learn.no not realy. The militairy does hit targets (Anti-aircraft systems for example) next to schools or civilian houses. It happend here in belgium during the second world war ALOT. We didn't complain. We knew the enemy and we knew there was a price to pay.

The backyard of my friends grandparents was used by the germans during world war 2. The germans painted a large red cross and place a flak cannon on it.
The only people responsible for deaths like that our the ones that put it there.

I'm glad the militairy sees it the way i do. It would lose too many planes if they didn't.

[Soulhunter]

forgot the source:

http://www.tribnet.com/news/story/4939992p-4869217c.html

[Soulhunter]

Tengu, you can't compare that: the Belgians were against the Nazis and therefore endured the bombings, the ordinary Iraqis aren't necessarily all against the Iraqi insurgents, they won't tolerate the bombings as the belgians did.

they rather see the US as the Nazis

[hist2004]

People take different sides on this issue because, we always wonder, “is it the right thing to do” or “what will the world say if we bomb a Mosque” even though the insurgents firing from it couldn’t care less about its religious significance. The only reason Germany
and Japan never started an insurgency against us is because we broke their back and their spirit. Both of these countries soldiers during WWII make those insurgents look like Camp Fire Girls, but their spirit was broken. Until the same is done in Iraq, the situation
will remain unchanged.

Regards,
Hist2004

[Soulhunter]

I really don't think you can compare Germany and Japan to Iraq, but I guess it has no sense arguing about that.

[hist2004]

I used the analogy about Germany and Japan to show what is necessary to win. We
have the best troops, best training, and best equipment, utilize it to the fullest and break their spirit.

Regards,
Hist2004

[scm77]

That Al-Jazeera site is funny. Funny in a total bull**** kinda way.

P.S. If you like pictures of dead children and other such propaganda check out their exclusive photo section. :roll:

[Gringo]

I'm fed up of arguing now.
I've tried to get my point across and have repeated myself a number of times, but u don't understand. Wars are never won by bombing.

[HELEX]

Foxnews is funny in the same way...... just from the opposing point of view. :roll:

[Soulhunter]

As for the dead kid pictures, they're sure very deranging, but isn't that what war is? shouldn't people also in the US see these pics and not only the sanitized versions on Foxnews etc?

Why should you only see the bombs falling and not the effect they're having? That's hypocritical. War is ugly and that should not be hidden. Although Aljazeera of courses uses those pics for its own ends, so that's not better either.

But in a fair and balanced news report about the war some of those pics should be shown!

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

break their spirit.

Regards,
Hist2004
This may be a long time coming the Iraqi insurgents are not in some country that is embargoed they are not surrounded by enemy forces, we are actuallly assisting them by feeding them and they can move with some freedom amongst our troops, like intestinal parasites they feed from us and weaken us at the same time. Iraq had no gun control so every man has had access to weapons and with the looting of army stores at the out break of the war, they will have enough munitions to keep up sporadic hostilities for some time to come.

[duck]

Hist2004 is right in his comparison and the "breaking their will" part sounds worse than it is. The insurgents in the Fallujah area and the minority Shia groups are fighting for continued oppression, intolerance and dictatorship, the Marines stand for the hope of a new democratic and free Iraq.

But, to be honest, there are signs of a nationwide insurgency in the works. The pressure on the smaller Coalition partners will be huge and if they crack under it the Shia areas might spin out of control.

[Tengu]

I'm fed up of arguing now.
I've tried to get my point across and have repeated myself a number of times, but u don't understand. Wars are never won by bombing.I understand your point. But in a war you must not act on emotions but with intelligence.

[UkrainianAmerican]

I'm fed up of arguing now.
I've tried to get my point across and have repeated myself a number of times, but u don't understand. Wars are never won by bombing.
I got your point. ANd I disagree with it.
The pacific front ended with two nukes.
The European front ended with dresden bombed back to the Stone Age, and Berlin occupied by the Red Army(read: bombed back to the stone age, :lol: )

[Pille1234]

I'm fed up of arguing now.
I've tried to get my point across and have repeated myself a number of times, but u don't understand. Wars are never won by bombing.
I got your point. ANd I disagree with it.
The pacific front ended with two nukes.
The European front ended with dresden bombed back to the Stone Age, and Berlin occupied by the Red Army(read: bombed back to the stone age, :lol: )
Right, but from a military point of view the Dresden bombing was completely senseless.

[Beowulf]

Yahoo news reports that the mosque was not destroyed, the rockets hit and destroyed a wall around the mosque compound. The thread title is somewhat misleading...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040407/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=716

[UkrainianAmerican]

Yahoo news reports that the mosque was not destroyed, the rockets hit and destroyed a wall around the mosque compound. The thread title is somewhat misleading...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040407/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=716
DAMN!

[Gringo]

Oh good, they have got some sense after all. For a minute there I thought the US were going to adopt Israeli tactics.

[S'13]

Oh good, they have got some sense after all. For a minute there I thought the US were going to adopt Israeli tactics.

:roll: :cantbeli:

[hist2004]

Israeli tactics are proven and sound. They go after the individual's involved, from the leadership on down. They practice restraint if anything,
image a car bomb or suicide bomber directed at the Mall of America. How
do you suppose we would feel or react.

Regards,
Hist2004

[Beowulf]

don't turn this into an Israeli vs whatever thread. We've had enough of those...

[UkrainianAmerican]

don't turn this into an Israeli vs whatever thread. We've had enough of those...
yeah.

[citizen-k]

don't turn this into an Israeli vs whatever thread. We've had enough of those...

Didn't you hear? the mosque was built by the Mossad, which knew it will be hit by American rockets...
Hell! blame the mossad for creating gravity which pulled the rockets towards the ground!

:roll:

The only thing America is adopting from Israel is the acknowledgment of the Arab muslim Euro-humanity... rofl

[Jackel]

OOO RAH!

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

The only thing America is adopting from Israel is the acknowledgment of the Arab muslim Euro-humanity... rofl
Keep it real, your shooting from the hip. :|

[UkrainianAmerican]

The only thing America is adopting from Israel is the acknowledgment of the Arab muslim Euro-humanity... rofl
Keep it real, your shooting from the hip. :|
From an Israeli perspective he sort of has a point. Blair met with arafat, instead of Sharon on more then one occasion.

[citizen-k]

The only thing America is adopting from Israel is the acknowledgment of the Arab muslim Euro-humanity... rofl
Keep it real, your shooting from the hip. :|

When I say Europe, I don't mean Scotland - mainly because of:

http://www.iwakami.ne.jp/~mcken/grp/mcewans.jpg

[Damian]

When I say Europe, I don't mean Scotland - mainly because of:

http://www.iwakami.ne.jp/~mcken/grp/mcewans.jpg[/quote]

And what do you mean when you say Europe?

[5jumpchump]

I'm getting really tired of Mosques being used as military bases , ammo depots and such . If there is good intel that **** like this is going on in a particular mosque no matter how old or sacred - BOMB BOMB BOMB the fark out of it .

[American Patriot]

Why the U.S. Military didn't disarm all of them is beyond me. It certainly would've looked much better if they disarmed the Shiite militias earlier now they are fighting a more experienced and determined enemy.

[UkrainianAmerican]

When I say Europe, I don't mean Scotland - mainly because of:

http://www.iwakami.ne.jp/~mcken/grp/mcewans.jpg

And what do you mean when you say Europe?[/quote]
When most of us right-wing folk criticize 'europe' it is natural that we exclude the British Isles along with eastern europe, italy, greece etc.

[One?]

you people are fuk$@@ disgusting. Ya lets blow up holy places, thats one less place to hide.

and then you talk about freedom and democracy.

[SeanAshi]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdonlyres/A73529F1-1554-4C68-8774-BA478D565B02/34006/0979266328E741919E69608337416ADB.jpg

Al Jazeera, according to them the mosque was dilibritly attacked and that Americans intentionally killed women and children

[Brozozo]

you people are fuk$@@ disgusting. Ya lets blow up holy places, thats one less place to hide.

and then you talk about freedom and democracy.

A bit radical maybe, but if it means bombing the crap outta mosques and schools harbouring the same militants that shoot American soldiers, I'm all for it.

[Salty Dog]

i hate it. the u.s. is always fighting with one hand tied behind it's back. i saw on the news that an ambulance came out of the mosque and started firing of them. it's good that the marines are hitting them where they are no matter where it may be, religious place or not.

[Salty Dog]

you people are fuk$@@ disgusting. Ya lets blow up holy places, thats one less place to hide.

and then you talk about freedom and democracy.

they abused and tarnished their place of worship by hiding out there, and they paid the price.

[MaDuce]

What the you suggest we do One they are hiding weapons and ammo in a religous building so that is their problem. They purposely do this so stop trying to take advantage of this so you can spew your **** As for AlJezzera...well im not gonna even start on their bull

[Beowulf]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&e=1&u=/nm/20040407/ts_nm/iraq_marines_mosque_dc_1




"U.S. Marines observed anti-Coalition Forces today firing from the Haj Musheen Abdul Aziz al-Kubaysi mosque complex in Falluja," the Marines said in a statement.


"In order to gain access to the compound housing the mosque, Marines used air support to breach a wall located several hundred yards away from the actual mosque structure."



...The statement said there was no damage to the actual mosque. It said one insurgent was killed and that there were no reports of civilian casualties. Iraqis on the ground said at least 25 people had been killed....

Skullknight please alter your thread title to show that the mosque was not "destroyed".

I'll wait a while, and edit it if you're not around to do it.

[5jumpchump]

you people are fuk$@@ disgusting. Ya lets blow up holy places, that’s one less place to hide.

and then you talk about freedom and democracy.

Are you serious man ? Like Russian American said once you enter these mosques and stock pile weapons and start shooting RPG's through the windows you just turned that holt mosque into a military base of operations . So you’re disgusted with the fact that we can fire back at them , perhaps blow it up ? Wow that's amazing . So what should we do then , sit and camp out for 3 months and beg them to give up like we did in Waco Texas with David Koresh rofl You’re an idiot , stop posting here numb nuts :bash:

[Aussie E]

Two stories from http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/


Mosque hit in Fallujah assault
From AFP
April 08, 2004
US Marines fired a rocket and dropped a 500-pound laser-guided bomb on a mosque compound as they pressed a two-****ged offensive against Shiite and Sunni Muslim insurgents in Iraq.

There was no sign of an easing in the fighting that has raged around several Iraqi cities since Sunday, leaving more 200 Iraqis dead, as well as 15 Americans, including 12 killed in a single incident in Ramadi.

Hundreds of Iraqis have been wounded since Sunday when radical Shiite cleric Moqtada Sadr's militiamen unleashed protests and US forces started an offensive in the restive Sunni town of Fallujah, west of Baghdad.

Faced with the escalating violence, Shiite spiritual leader Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani called for a peaceful settlement to the country's problems to avoid further chaos and bloodshed.

Earlier, on the third day of their "Operation Vigilant Resolve," marines bombed a mosque in central Fallujah.

Despite earlier indicating that up to 40 suspected insurgents were killed in the air strike, a marine officer was later forced to admit that US forces had failed to find any bodies in the mosque.

"When we hit that building I thought we had killed all the bad guys, but when we went in they didn't find any bad guys in the building," Lieutenant Colonel Brennan Byrne told AFP.

Instead, he speculated that the insurgents may have fled after a Cobra helicopter gunship fired a Hellfire missile at the mosque, and before an aircraft dropped a laser-guided precision bomb.

He also said it was possible that other insurgents had dragged the bodies away in the 30-40 minutes before marines arrived to sweep the area.

Fallujah residents confirmed the Abdulaziz al-Samarai mosque was hit along with the building of the Islamic Scholars' Association.

The bomb hit the minaret of the mosque and ploughed a hole through the building, shattering windows and leaving the mosque badly damaged.

A Central Command spokesman said gunfire from within the mosque led US forces to bomb it, leaving five "casualties" among the marines. It was not clear whether they were dead or wounded.

The bombing came after several hours of small arms and rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) fire from insurgents, which left five marines slightly wounded, said Byrne.

In Fallujah, a marine officer told AFP that a US marine was shot dead by insurgents near the bombed mosque compound.

Earlier Wednesday, all the city mosques called for a "jihad" (holy war) against occupation forces, an AFP correspondent said.

The insurgents said in a communique they had shot down three US helicopters, destroyed two jeeps and two armored vehicles.

They also said they were still in control of the city and had put US forces to flight, while Byrne said marines had reached the center of Fallujah.

Elsewhere, a US soldier was killed by RPG fire early Wednesday as his convoy was relieving security forces guarding the Diala police station in Baghdad, the US military said.

Meanwhile, Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, the US-led coalition's deputy operations chief, vowed to destroy Sadr's Mehdi Army which has been outlawed by the occupation authorities.

"We will not be shaken by the thugs and terrorists," US President George W. Bush said in a speech earlier. "These killers don't have values... We face tough action in Iraq but we will stay the course."

Just outside the northern city of Kirkuk, 13 Iraqis were killed and 20 wounded in an exchange of gunfire with US troops during a demonstration to protest US attacks on the hotbed town of Fallujah, police and medics said.

In the southern city of Kut, Sadr's men forced Ukrainian coalition troops to withdraw after heavy fighting left one Ukranian dead and five others wounded.

Overnight, four Iraqis were killed in a US air raid on Baghdad's Sadr City, a Shiite slum. Three more died from wounds sustained in fighting a day earlier, a hospital director said Wednesday.

At least 64 people have been killed and 242 others wounded in the district since Sunday.

In the southern Shiite city of Karbala, a Sadr aide, two militiamen and five Iranian passersby were killed and 16 wounded during overnight clashes between US troops and the Mehdi Army.

On Tuesday, 12 US marines were killed and two dozen wounded when 60 to 70 Iraqi insurgents armed with rocket-propelled grenades and automatic weapons attacked them in Ramadi.

It was the deadliest single incident involving coalition troops this year since a US helicopter came down near Fallujah in January, killing all nine on bord.

Ramadi is in the strife-wracked Sunni Triangle, near Fallujah, where US forces have been hunting those responsible for the brutal murders of four US security contractors last week.

But calm returned to the southern city of Nasiriyah on Wednesday after a day of fierce fighting left 15 Iraqis, including three insurgents, dead.

Under a deal, police have two days to gradually reassert control over the northern sector of the city, including positions held by Sadr's militia, before handing it back to Italian troops serving with the US-led coalition.

The coalition has issued a warrant for the arrest of Sadr, a descendant of an illustrious religious family, for the murder last April of a rival cleric.

Sadr's aides have vowed he will never be captured or surrender.

Hazem al-Araji, head of Sadr's office in the capital's Shiite neighborhood of Kadhimiya, told AFP Tuesday that the cleric was somewhere "near the holy shrine of Imam Ali in central Najaf."

For his part, Sadr called for power to be handed over to "honest men" and not to collaborators of the US-led occupation, in an apparent reference to the country's US-appointed interim leaders.

Despite the violence, UN special envoy Lakhdar Brahimi continued talks with interim leaders Wednesday on means to help keep to the scheduled handover of power to Iraqi sovereignty, set for June 30.



I guess the gloves are finally off. During WWII when sniper's shot from church steples there was no hesitation to return fire.


Mosques will be targeted: US
From correspondents in Washington
April 08, 2004
A SENIOR US army officer said today that Iraqi mosques will be targeted by his troops if they are used as fire bases or weapons storage depots.

Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt, speaking to CNN from Baghdad, said US forces had dropped two 227kg precision-guided bombs on a mosque compound in Fallujah, Iraq, because local insurgents were using the compound as cover to fire at US soldiers.

"It (a mosque) has a special status under the Geneva Convention that it can't be attacked," Kimmitt said, adding "however, it can be attacked when there is a military necessity".

He said such religious sites would be struck if his forces believed insurgents were "storing weapons, using weapons, inciting violence, (or) executing violence from its grounds".

Kimmit said he could not confirm precise damage to the mosque or additional reports that a second Fallujah mosque had been attacked by US troops.

When asked to explain how insurgents, who were believed to have been hiding inside the mosque after reportedly attacking US forces, escaped, Lieutenant-Colonel Brennan Byrne replied: "I don't know".

Byrne, in Fallujah, said the insurgents may have fled after a Cobra helicopter gunship fired a Hellfire missile at the mosque, and before an aircraft dropped a laser-guided precision bomb.

He had earlier suggested that up to 40 insurgents had been killed in the airstrikes.

Byrne said it was possible other insurgents in the flashpoint town west of Baghdad had dragged the bodies away in the 30-40 minutes before marines arrived to sweep the area.

The bombing came after several hours of small arms and rocket-propelled grenades fire from insurgents, which left five marines wounded.

Hundreds of US marines have swarmed into Fallujah during the third day of "Operation Vigilant Resolve" to flush out insurgents who killed and brutalised four American contractors here last week.

Asked if the Marines had made any arrests related to the killings of the four contractors, Kimmitt replied: "I know that they have picked up what they consider to be 15 or so targets.

"It could well be that those targets may have amongst them some of the perpetrators of this atrocity."

Earlier, all the city mosques called for a "jihad" (holy war) against occupation forces amid intense bombardments and aircraft overflights, an AFP correspondent said.

Interviewed with Kimmitt, a spokesman for the US-led coalition in Iraq, Dan Senor, said: "Life is improving for Iraqis. Things are getting better for them. The general trend is positive.

"And as we get closer and closer to June 30th, as we hand over sovereignty here, there are going to be these bumps in the road where violent mobs and two-bit thugs are going to try and throw this process off course."

Kimmitt added that coalition forces would remain beyond that date to help ensure security.

"We've never suggested that on June 30th that somehow the coalition would pull out, leaving the responsibility of external and public security to the Iraqis," he said.

[Aussie E]

apologies for the screw ups in the last post I'm new to all of this posting

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Okay here's how it works. The insurgents know that mass media generally sides with them. So they exploit that to the fullest extent possible. An example would be the use of non-combatant human shields not acting under duress as seen in Somalia on a number of occasions. Another example is the use of religious sites, hospitals, civilian air-raid shelters etc, as a cover to conduct military operations. If the 'enemy' doesn't attack because the site is non-military in nature then they win. If the 'enemy' does attack and destroys/damages the site and or kills/wounds 'innocent' civilians then they still win no matter how many of they're own men die.
The insurgents don't need to be successful militarily to win in the end. Just look at the Tet offensive or the madrid bombings. Saying things like
I say start blowing up all the mosques, we shouldn't just stop there in Fallujah, we should just level the entire city. We are losing soldiers there every day to the worthless people. If we kill every last one of them I think there will be less dead soldiers because the rest of the country will be scared ****less that we will level their city if the kill an American. I know that this will anger many of these people but they deserve it and who cares if they don't like it? The UN, France, etc.....all bodies that no one gives a **** about their opinion
is sheer stupidity. That is exactly what the radical leaders want to see happen.
Why?, because then their points about how evil the US and the rest of the coalition is, will be made for them. You'd be playing right into their hands. You'd win the battle and lose the war.

[Brozozo]

Good point and post Ngati, but I'd love the coalition flatten all of Iraq into a parking lot.

[talib_killa34]

It's been a a very grim last several of days in Iraq. There is nothing good that can come from all of this. The only thing the US can do is establish order and commit their presence in the parts of Iraq affected.

The only thing this Sadr brigade understands is force.

They are seeing force right now.

Sadr himself is D-E-A-D.
:fork:

[M1A2U2]

Iran has secret agents in Iraq starting this uprising. I have two words for Iran...not smart

[Haiw]

Iran has secret agents in Iraq starting this uprising. I have two words for Iran...not smart
Source?

[HELEX]

These links are known, but what will they do? Occupie a country that is 3 times larger than Iraq? :lol:

[Salty Dog]

These links are known, but what will they do? Occupie a country that is 3 times larger than Iraq? :lol:

hopefully they ****ing kill you.

[HELEX]

hopefully they f*** kill you.

What first? The ****ing or the killing?

[Salty Dog]

hopefully they f*** kill you.

What first? The f*** or the killing?

can you read? if i was saying that i hoped they f***ed and killed you i would have said it like that, but i didn't. i wrote f***ing, but the forum has a language filter. please die.

[HELEX]

You really love me? Well thats kind of you! woot

[M1A2U2]

MarineDEP4...I like your style of bitterness. Keep it up man ts hilarious

[Webley]

Yes, blow everything up! That'll help greatly!!! :roll:

Blowing everything up in Hiroshima and Nagasaki took the Japan out of the war.

Looking at history, I find your reasoning to be illogical.

[Soulhunter]

you're not dealing with an isolated country or ethinicty like Japan here. If you level the insurgent cities you only create more hate in AND around the country. if you do that you attack in a sense the muslim community, or at least a lot of muslims see it that way, creating more jihad. so it's wrong to compare the situation to Japan IMHO.

[Soulhunter]

M1A2U2: so the US will now attack Iran as well? please allow me to laugh

[moughoun]

Some bad news, the US commander in Fallujah has compared it to Vietnam

[cold0]

The Battle of Falluja: link http://www.strategypage.com//fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=IRAQ.HTM


April 8, 2004: Fighting continued in Fallujah, with the marines holding nearly half the city, and inflicting over a hundred casualties on the armed Iraqis. The marines are using a combination of tanks, aircraft and infantry to advance against the Iraqis defending from the tightly packed, low rise (one or two story) housing that covers most of the city. There are numerous different groups resisting the marines, so there is no coordinated resistance. The criminal gangs appear to be the best organized. The gangs of Fallujah, like many Sunni Arab criminal organizations, proved resistant to Saddam's attempts to destroy them, so Saddam made a deal with the gangs, and got a cut of their loot. The former Saddam military and secret police people have formed anti-American (and sometimes criminal gangs, which causes tension with the existing gangs.) There are also groups of Arab nationalists (whose philosophy seems to be "better to be a slave under another Arab than to be free through the efforts of a non-Arab) and Islamic radicals. This lack of centralized organization makes it harder for the marines, as killing off one group does not have an immediate effect on the others. However, killing the resisting Iraqis does have an effect on others. The number of Iraqi gunmen is diminishing as Iraqis note that the marines kill all who fight them, and the marines are not taking nearly as many casualties as the Iraqis.

American troops have arrested over a hundred Arabs trying to cross the Syrian border to join the fighting against American troops.

The al Sadr Shia militia that have taken control of towns and neighborhoods from Baghdad to Basra. These militias are not well organized, nor do they have very effective leadership. American and coalition troops are arresting and killing the Sadr men who are armed and resisting. The Sadr followers have little military training (or if they do, it doesn't show) and poor organization. Sadr is trying to get more Shia to join the fight. But this becomes more difficult as more Iraqi fighters are killed fighting the better armed and organized coalition troops.

The Iraqi police and security troops have been a disappointment. With few exceptions, they refused to oppose armed Sunni Arabs in Fallujah or Shia areas in the south. This was expected from the security troops, who are basically security guards. The police, although they received training, were recruited locally. So if a local strong guy gathers together enough armed men, the local cops will back off. This is a vestige of the Saddam era, where the police were basically security guards, which the heavy duty terrorism was performed by various secret police, pro-Saddam militias and intelligence organizations. Coalition troops are able to use the security troops and police and the current fighting, putting the Iraqi forces in charge of security in areas that have been pacified.

The annual rotation of new American troops relieving those who have already served a year has been halted, and experienced units held until the current unrest in Fallujah and Shia areas is over.

Probably Strategy page is optimistic but Sadr, his cronies and the Falluja Sunnis are taking what they deserve.

[wulfstan]

In Britian Thursday, former Foreign Secretary Robin Cook said that U.S. forces were fuelling violence in Iraq by "acting like warriors."

This quote was found on CNN. Hey, are soldiers not warriors? What exactly is the diminutive little ginger idiot talking about? Is he surprised to see soldiers acting like soldiers? I'd glad he resigned.

[cold0]

In Britian Thursday, former Foreign Secretary Robin Cook said that U.S. forces were fuelling violence in Iraq by "acting like warriors."

Well if the Iraq is not in the hands of Sadr, radical militia, ex- Saddam cronies and Al-Quedja is because someone is acting like warriors.

Robin Cook is a idiot. PERIOD.

[wulfstan]

In Britian Thursday, former Foreign Secretary Robin Cook said that U.S. forces were fuelling violence in Iraq by "acting like warriors."

Well if the Iraq is not in the hands of Sadr, radical militia, ex- Saddam cronies and Al-Quedja is because someone is acting like warriors.

Robin Cook is a idiot. PERIOD.

Word. Glad i'm not the only one who thinks that. He got a pat on the back for resigning from the cabinet, when he should get a slap in the face!

[ShadowNeo]

Think of it in the context of what was needed in Iraq. After the war was "over", more focus needed to be put on winning hearts and minds and, from my view, this wasn't as extensively used as it could have been. Troops have a bigger responsibility than simply being "warriors".

Also, Cook resigned because he could not "support a war without international agreement or domestic support.". I think his point has been made somewhat more valid as the war has gone on.

[wulfstan]

Maybe, maybe not, but do you think the same guys the coalition forces are fighting today would have supported a UN backed force in their country and cities? I doubt it, but i also suspect a certain amount of heavy handedness on the part of the US led coalition in these parts has not helped matters any.

People like Short and Cook would never support any kind of war, let's fce it.

[HELEX]

Word. Glad i'm not the only one who thinks that. He got a pat on the back for resigning from the cabinet, when he should get a slap in the face!

Cook will be the "new man" in his party when everything in Iraq goes wrong. He just saved his political career.

[ShadowNeo]

Maybe, maybe not, but do you think the same guys the coalition forces are fighting today would have supported a UN backed force in their country and cities?

Personally I think they may not have supported it, but objected less to it. The way it is now, the insurgents can play the US invaders card, which will probably give them a certain degree of support from the Iraqi population. In my opinion it would be harder to do so if all the forces there were united under the UN flag.

[IDFM203]

Oh good, they have got some sense after all. For a minute there I thought the US were going to adopt Israeli tactics.oh good another mideast "exert" :roll:

I support the U.S. though I am not sure if you are awhere of this but the U.S. is using much stronger tactics then Israel has been using and with much less world condemnations and with much less of its vital national security at stake as what Israel faces on a daily bases.

And no Israel never ever targeted any mosques etc..



Israeli tactics are proven and sound. They go after the individual's involved, from the leadership on down. They practice restraint if anything,
image a car bomb or suicide bomber directed at the Mall of America. How
do you suppose we would feel or react.

Regards,
Hist2004Good post!

People can (and will) whine about Israel all day, nothing can stop that, however the bottom line is that in the absence of any peaceful partner on the other side no matter what Israel does or doesn’t do, Israel actions have indeed proven itself to work and it has done so in a very restrained fashin, for unlike before Israel went in two years ago, where there have been a homicide bombing and a shooting attack almost daily (sometimes even twice a day) and a shooting attacks against Israel almost that frequent, now Israels actions have brought down the number attacks by over fifty percent to where even after Hamas calls for immediate revenge two weeks ago, NONE has happened as when they said it would.

Now of course its not 100 percent full proof nor do I belive that it can bring a solution and yes I too believe there will be a another homicide bombing, but our actions clearly have PORVEN itself to reduce significantly the amount of attacks against our citizens.


Say what you want but its no mere coincidence that military attaches from around the world (including your nation) were in Israel last week for Israel’s' LIC conference on tactics that Israel uses.

People see it works!!



Shalom :D

[Truthsayer]

Mosque hit in Fallujah assault
From AFP
April 08, 2004
US Marines fired a rocket and dropped a 500-pound laser-guided bomb on a mosque compound as they pressed a two-****ged offensive against Shiite and Sunni Muslim insurgents in Iraq.

There was no sign of an easing in the fighting that has raged around several Iraqi cities since Sunday, leaving more 200 Iraqis dead, as well as 15 Americans, including 12 killed in a single incident in Ramadi.

Hundreds of Iraqis have been wounded since Sunday when radical Shiite cleric Moqtada Sadr's militiamen unleashed protests and US forces started an offensive in the restive Sunni town of Fallujah, west of Baghdad.

Faced with the escalating violence, Shiite spiritual leader Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani called for a peaceful settlement to the country's problems to avoid further chaos and bloodshed.

Earlier, on the third day of their "Operation Vigilant Resolve," marines bombed a mosque in central Fallujah.

Despite earlier indicating that up to 40 suspected insurgents were killed in the air strike, a marine officer was later forced to admit that US forces had failed to find any bodies in the mosque.

Uhu...any more reports from this?

Would be silly if the bombing was a failure (in dual sence) in the way that the only once wounded was the civilians in trafic behind the mosque (see earlier links) but all the militia-mororns had already taken off...and at the same time the mosque is 'dis-honored' by the act of bombing itself [as seen by others in Iraq now, not by me].

[UkrainianAmerican]

Uh, I thought the mosque was dishonored when it was used a a machine gun emplacement.
Silly me.

[cut]

Uh, I thought the mosque was dishonored when it was used a a machine gun emplacement.
Silly me.

a mosque is still a mosque and it's destruction gives great propaganda material to Sadr, whether it was unavoidable or not can't change that.

[Truthsayer]

Wow, you really lack any reading-comprehension, right?

It doesn't matter if they would have hidden Mustaffa El'terroristo in the Mosque, bombing it IS an desecration in the eyes of hard-core-believers. Get it?!

[cut]

Wow, you really lack any reading-comprehension, right?

It doesn't matter if they would have hidden Mustaffa El'terroristo in the Mosque, bombing it IS an desecration in the eyes of hard-core-believers. Get it?!

we're not worried about the hardcore believers to be honest, the ones to be worried about are those who don't know who they want to win, and something like the bombing of the mosque might swing them the wrong way.

[Truthsayer]

Ofcourse.

My (first) post was about if anyone had any info if the attack in itself was successfull or not. The qoute would say it wasn't and if so, it was a double failure, unfortuanly.

[ExtraT]

Ya lets blow up holy places, thats one less place to hide.


Exactly. Only mosques are hardly holy nowadays. BTW, this applies to most of the mosques in the world - not just in war zones.

If mosques were used for prayer only (as they should be), then they would be indeed holy places. Unfortunetly, nowadays they are used mostly as propaganda centers, to spread around hate against non-muslims. There is nothing holy about that. Even that would be enough to put them on a list of viable targets. Usage of mosques as bases of oprations and munitions depots only proves this point some more.

The fact is, that these insurgents are not fighting for "freedom from occupation" - they are fighting for power. The shiites would love to get a country like Iraq under their control, and to turn it into another Iran. BTW, that's where most of the **** is coming from: Iran and Syria.

And another thing: when one's fighting for freedom, he usually doesn't use those that he, supposedly, wants to free as human shields. So, let's cut the crap, please.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Exactly. Only mosques are hardly holy nowadays. BTW, this applies to most of the mosques in the world - not just in war zones.
You put a lot of thought into this post but its a shame it makes no sense.

[ExtraT]

You put a lot of thought into this post but its a shame it makes no sense.

Care to elaborate? Or do you choose to be cryptic today?

[cut]

Have you been to a mosque recently?If you wan to stop terrorism or insurgency in iraq you get mosques on your side, if you destroy the mosques there will still be terrorism exept there would probably be more of it.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Have you been to a mosque recently?If you wan to stop terrorism or insurgency in iraq you get mosques on your side, if you destroy the mosques there will still be terrorism exept there would probably be more of it.
We nuked Japan. They seem on our side.
'Nuff said.

[Soulhunter]

ok, so nuke Iraq

[UkrainianAmerican]

ok, so nuke Iraq
No, but destroying a few mosques here and there, and maybe wasting a bunch of clerics wont hurt.

[HELEX]

No, but destroying a few mosques here and there, and maybe wasting a bunch of clerics wont hurt.

Yea, they will love them for that :roll:

[EchoSierra2]

...But the destruction of the Mosque was not a good idea, it adds fuel that americans are "anti-muslim".
In either case, I think the coaltion is f***ed.

This is why Americans have lost thier stomach for clear and decisive actions because they worry about what other feel is P.C. These are insurgents and they choose to run for cover in a house of worship. It's just a building. It could very well be a crack house in east harlem, nyc. it's all the same to me. Let's do the job and do it right. I personally dont want my boy's teathered by politicians and religious horn blowers. All is fair in love and war.

By the way, my first post. Love the site and am eager to learn and debate on these HOT Topics. Hope to develope some good friends here. Thanks for allowing me to voice my opinion today

[ShadowNeo]

It could very well be a crack house in east harlem, nyc. it's all the same to me.

It wouldn't be the same to the Iraqis though would it? Would the majority of the population hear about the fact that insurgents were using it for cover? Probably not. They will hear from word of mouth that US forces blew up a mosque. The coallition does not seem to have harnessed enough hearts and minds to be able to convince them otherwise.

[EchoSierra2]

It could very well be a crack house in east harlem, nyc. it's all the same to me.

It wouldn't be the same to the Iraqis though would it? Would the majority of the population hear about the fact that insurgents were using it for cover? Probably not. They will hear from word of mouth that US forces blew up a mosque. The coallition does not seem to have harnessed enough hearts and minds to be able to convince them otherwise.

and knowing the religion and the mentality of the people, they probably never will. Not this generation. With that being said, do we allow them to dictate to us policy?

[ExtraT]

If you wan to stop terrorism or insurgency in iraq you get mosques on your side


Tell me, and how exactly do you propose to do that?



if you destroy the mosques there will still be terrorism exept there would probably be more of it.

Nobody has ever touched their mosques. Still they find some reasons to fight. Why should we care about their mosques then? Especially if they are the primary means of them organizing themselves?

[AirZone]

Oh good, they have got some sense after all. For a minute there I thought the US were going to adopt Israeli tactics.oh good another mideast "exert" :roll:

I support the U.S. though I am not sure if you are awhere of this but the U.S. is using much stronger tactics then Israel has been using and with much less world condemnations and with much less of its vital national security at stake as what Israel faces on a daily bases.

And no Israel never ever targeted any mosques etc..



Israeli tactics are proven and sound. They go after the individual's involved, from the leadership on down. They practice restraint if anything,
image a car bomb or suicide bomber directed at the Mall of America. How
do you suppose we would feel or react.

Regards,
Hist2004Good post!

People can (and will) whine about Israel all day, nothing can stop that, however the bottom line is that in the absence of any peaceful partner on the other side no matter what Israel does or doesn’t do, Israel actions have indeed proven itself to work and it has done so in a very restrained fashin, for unlike before Israel went in two years ago, where there have been a homicide bombing and a shooting attack almost daily (sometimes even twice a day) and a shooting attacks against Israel almost that frequent, now Israels actions have brought down the number attacks by over fifty percent to where even after Hamas calls for immediate revenge two weeks ago, NONE has happened as when they said it would.

Now of course its not 100 percent full proof nor do I belive that it can bring a solution and yes I too believe there will be a another homicide bombing, but our actions clearly have PORVEN itself to reduce significantly the amount of attacks against our citizens.


Say what you want but its no mere coincidence that military attaches from around the world (including your nation) were in Israel last week for Israel’s' LIC conference on tactics that Israel uses.

People see it works!!



Shalom :D

Good point idf, i just hate it when Russia and USA can kick the ass outta thier enemys and when Israel(the jews) doing some thing.. all the world cry about war crimes and bla bla bla... but ah well i guess we get used to it.

(if we wouldnt have this stupid restrained fashin the israeli-palastine conflict would be over long time ago)

[talib_killa34]

Oh good, they have got some sense after all. For a minute there I thought the US were going to adopt Israeli tactics.oh good another mideast "exert" :roll:

I support the U.S. though I am not sure if you are awhere of this but the U.S. is using much stronger tactics then Israel has been using and with much less world condemnations and with much less of its vital national security at stake as what Israel faces on a daily bases.

And no Israel never ever targeted any mosques etc..



Israeli tactics are proven and sound. They go after the individual's involved, from the leadership on down. They practice restraint if anything,
image a car bomb or suicide bomber directed at the Mall of America. How
do you suppose we would feel or react.

Regards,
Hist2004Good post!

People can (and will) whine about Israel all day, nothing can stop that, however the bottom line is that in the absence of any peaceful partner on the other side no matter what Israel does or doesn’t do, Israel actions have indeed proven itself to work and it has done so in a very restrained fashin, for unlike before Israel went in two years ago, where there have been a homicide bombing and a shooting attack almost daily (sometimes even twice a day) and a shooting attacks against Israel almost that frequent, now Israels actions have brought down the number attacks by over fifty percent to where even after Hamas calls for immediate revenge two weeks ago, NONE has happened as when they said it would.

Now of course its not 100 percent full proof nor do I belive that it can bring a solution and yes I too believe there will be a another homicide bombing, but our actions clearly have PORVEN itself to reduce significantly the amount of attacks against our citizens.


Say what you want but its no mere coincidence that military attaches from around the world (including your nation) were in Israel last week for Israel’s' LIC conference on tactics that Israel uses.

People see it works!!



Shalom :D

Good point idf, i just hate it when Russia and USA can kick the ass outta thier enemys and when Israel(the jews) doing some thing.. all the world cry about war crimes and bla bla bla... but ah well i guess we get used to it.

(if we wouldnt have this stupid restrained fashin the israeli-palastine conflict would be over long time ago)


Very good point!

Maybe the world would be happier if Israel ceased to exist!

That would be a tragic day in my book!

[AirZone]

mabye...but i want to live you know :lol:

[S'13]

Very good point!

Maybe the world would be happier if Israel ceased to exist!

That would be a tragic day in my book!

Don't worry, that day will never come ;)

[Universal]

ok, so nuke Iraq

Good idea, let the f***in US nuke this entire f***in world :bash:

[talib_killa34]

L'Chaim! To Israel! A long life guys. :D