M249 SAW/LMG Rigs and Set Ups

[Yeoman]

so I found out that I'm going to haul around a C9, and I'm trying to convince them to let me use my own rig outside of an ex where I jump in (gotta keep to standards on that at least). so what I want to know from you LMGer's out here, what's your kit set up like? what type of vest do you use? where's the location of the pouches that you've found the most effective?
I wasn't too thrilled on how the tag set up looked at all, and I've yet to hear of a review of how the blackhawk set up is. I haven't seen or heard of any other companies that make a rig for lmg's, but if there is, pass it along would ya?
Greg

[Flagg]

so I found out that I'm going to haul around a C9, and I'm trying to convince them to let me use my own rig outside of an ex where I jump in (gotta keep to standards on that at least). so what I want to know from you LMGer's out here, what's your kit set up like? what type of vest do you use? where's the location of the pouches that you've found the most effective?
I wasn't too thrilled on how the tag set up looked at all, and I've yet to hear of a review of how the blackhawk set up is. I haven't seen or heard of any other companies that make a rig for lmg's, but if there is, pass it along would ya?
Greg

I've spent a bit of time(training, NOT on operations) on the C9.

The Aussie belt bags are outstanding bits of kit......I really do NOT like SAW boxes...too big and bulky in the ****e position.

If wearing belt webbing, consider the following:

Empty out your entire belt webbing.

Connect ALL of your link(besides the 100+ in your Aussie belt bag already on the gun) into one giant belt.

Working from the left side of your belt webbing, drop it into your pouches filling from left, around your back to your right side...make sure that your left hand pouch has the very end of the belt ready to go on the gun at the very top of the pouch.

Keep your right hand most pouches available for water bottles and such things not as important as gun link.

Basically, if you have a contact, you run through the belt in the belt bag, then IA to the huge belt in your webbing....if you have a break contact or assault, your belt is still mostly in your webbing and not wrapped around your ankles when bounding or shifting to a new firing position.

Also, make sure to load your #2 gunner up like a donkey with the spare barrel and extra link.

Just my .02c

[Beer Monster]

Like Flagg I haven't carried the Minimi for any great length of time so I can't give you advice on set up but I can point you in the direction of a few companies that have vests etc.

Arktis (http://www.arktisltd.co.uk/military/vestsmilitary.htm) have started to produce a Minimi Vest. I haven't heard anything about this particular vest and I understand that the Arktis quality has taken a bit of a dip recently (I could be wrong on this one?). They probably produce one in your camo too.

I have heard good things about the IDF Minimi vest, however, I have only seen them for sale on EBay. Comes in standard IDF green so you would just have to get the spray cans out to cam up.

Combat Kit (http://www.combat-kit.co.uk/) also produce a minimi vest, both a fixed pouch and a modular version. I haven't heard anything about them but I understand they supply/supplied the Norwegian forces(?).

SASS (http://www.sasskit.co.uk/products/militarywebbing/minimibeltpouch.htm) produce their own Minimi pouch to fit the British PLCE system or there is the standard PLCE issue (http://www.army-surplus.co.uk/Merchant2/4.13/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=1&Product_Code=LBV33&Category_Code=D).

Hope that helps.

[Sabre]

Belt kit as per normal but with the right and left pouches replaced with Minimi pouches. Use aussie belt bags as Flagg suggested (we have 200 rounds ones issued, don't know about you). That gives you 600 rounds immediately to hand. The rest can go in a daysack. If you really want more on your belt just replace another pouch with a minimi pouch, giving you 800 rounds. Belt kit is always best as you can go ****e much easier with it. I know the CF doesn't issue it now, but if you can, try to get a belt rig.

I've never tried Flaggs idea but if you have belt bags (and the link tends to come pre-packed in them now) then I'd keep the link in them. All you should have in your belt kit is 2-3 200rd bags plus some water/multitool/oil/torch etc. The rest plus the spare ammo can go in a daysack.

[Yeoman]

yeah we got two hundred round bags. apparently we've got hundred round ones as well (and if we don't, I can acquire them anyways)
I see that artkis one, that's pretty tempting all in it's own. I've never been a fan of belt kits just because of the access issues.
I'll have send them a e-mail. I recall that they've at one point had access to cadpat material, I'd much rather have the tac vest in cadpat if I could.
but thanks, it's good to know there's at least a few companies out there that make vests that I didn't know about. I was getting worried for a second there :D
Greg

[SIWY]

Arktis also have 200rds box pouches with Molle system - please look on last Combat&Surival. There is chestrig with two Minimi pouches! But sorry - We haven't Cadpat in this moment - that is true.

[Flagg]

yeah we got two hundred round bags. apparently we've got hundred round ones as well (and if we don't, I can acquire them anyways)
I see that artkis one, that's pretty tempting all in it's own. I've never been a fan of belt kits just because of the access issues.
I'll have send them a e-mail. I recall that they've at one point had access to cadpat material, I'd much rather have the tac vest in cadpat if I could.
but thanks, it's good to know there's at least a few companies out there that make vests that I didn't know about. I was getting worried for a second there :D
Greg

What type of terrain and operations will the Exercise encompass?

The reason why I'm asking is that it plays a significant factor in the kit that would be best suited to it.

I'm no Super SAS ninja but I think it's fairly safe to say that in an open/close country light infantry exercise keeping the front of your body clear of gear using belt webbing instead of vest webbing makes life a lot easier....especially for a gunner.

IF you're participating in an Exercise with a lot of vehicle mounted patrolling and such with heaps of CVA and VCP debus drills or MOUT/FIBUA the advantage of vest-type webbing quickly becomes apparant...generally much faster debussing, and it's nice to have a bit of something on your chest when diving ****e onto asphalt. :)

The only suggestion I would make, if your unit allows you the latitude of buying/using your own kit, is to ask yourself whether or not the "cool factor" of vest webbing for a gunner is playing a part in your decision making process.

Vest webbing certainly seems to be the first choice for many/most....but is it always the BEST choice?

I suspect fashion plays a role in the military just as much as it does on High Street.

So is it better to LOOK good? Or FEEL good?

Good luck with it, and let us know how it goes.

On a side note...consider getting a vertical hanbdgrip for the butt of your C9.

When firing the C9 right handed, I have my left hand holding a detachable vertical handgrip rather than using my left hand as a cheek pad over the butt.

I find it makes for a more stable firing position.

At a C9 gun qualification a few weeks back I managed 5/6 in the black at 600 metres using it in first shooting serial...I think the vertical grip helped make it happen...that and having sneezed and having my eyes closed at the time certainly must have helped with that nutty score. ;)

[Mach6]

so I found out that I'm going to haul around a C9, and I'm trying to convince them to let me use my own rig outside of an ex where I jump in (gotta keep to standards on that at least). so what I want to know from you LMGer's out here, what's your kit set up like? what type of vest do you use? where's the location of the pouches that you've found the most effective?
I wasn't too thrilled on how the tag set up looked at all, and I've yet to hear of a review of how the blackhawk set up is. I haven't seen or heard of any other companies that make a rig for lmg's, but if there is, pass it along would ya?
Greg

Get yourself the M249 (C9) Vortex flash suppressor. Colt-Canada has been procurring them like crazy for the C8 & C9, along with your SOF folks. This little gem will save your butt -- certainly cheap life insurance:
http://www.smithenterprise.com/products06.html

[Straker]

Not to be rude but I get the feeling that his chain of command may take offence to him modifying a weapon in such a manner without prior permission or going through an armourer?

Im guessing even a flash hider is an illegal modification, certainly would be here.

[Yeoman]

I think that's going a little too far for kit slutting to change the flash adaptor. there's a specific reason why the specops boys can get away with that stuff.
as for it's use; it'll be a little bit of vehicle (odds are not a whole lot I'm figuring probably alot of foot patrolling) and open terrain and a bit of urban as well. it wouldn't be for use here in Canada, so I suppose you can figure it out from there. I'm just looking at all the variables. I mean like one of the main reasons why I hate the tac vest I have is the locations of essential things being on the side of my body rather then at the front.
it's not like I haven't thought it over about webbing, I've just never been a big fan of the hopping around it does when you run, and all the weight being directed onto your hips, and just the lack of the ability to grab anything you'd need at a moments notices (odds are I would have to get a butt pack put onto the webbing, and there's nothing lamer in the world to me then that)
maybe I'll have to pull the old webbing out of retirement and give it a whirl and see what I can do to carry everything I need, but still be able to access it then.
Greg

[Creeper]

Not to be rude but I get the feeling that his chain of command may take offence to him modifying a weapon in such a manner without prior permission or going through an armourer?

Im guessing even a flash hider is an illegal modification, certainly would be here.

Straker makes a important ass saving point. If there are no other weapons in the squad/plt modded for each solider, then that might be a good sign that it may not be a good idea to 'play' around with 'yours'.
Do you get to take ur weapon home with you or do you hand it over to the armorer?

Our point, perform a little CYA, and ask first.
DO NOT BE "THAT GUY" !

[Yeoman]

if the chain of command does go the way like my old unit did prior to departure; odds are I *might* be able to change the handguard on the c9 to a KAC ris, even that could be doubtful.
Greg

[Mach6]

Actually, the Vortex is headed for the regular CF -- not just SOF. still, you obviously want to check with your chain of command before modding a weapon -- goes without saying.

[Yeoman]

never heard that.
and just talking to my buddy in the stan, they've yet to hear anything like that, so yeah?
Greg

[Sanabolic]

Last ex I was on I justed taped my C9 boxes back to back, made the paper with it toop-)

[Flagg]

Use aussie belt bags as Flagg suggested (we have 200 rounds ones issued, don't know about you).

Ours are the 100 round belt bags, unless I'm just too much of a wuss to be able to stuff another 100 rounds in. ;)

[Flagg]

I think that's going a little too far for kit slutting to change the flash adaptor. there's a specific reason why the specops boys can get away with that stuff.
as for it's use; it'll be a little bit of vehicle (odds are not a whole lot I'm figuring probably alot of foot patrolling) and open terrain and a bit of urban as well. it wouldn't be for use here in Canada, so I suppose you can figure it out from there. I'm just looking at all the variables. I mean like one of the main reasons why I hate the tac vest I have is the locations of essential things being on the side of my body rather then at the front.
it's not like I haven't thought it over about webbing, I've just never been a big fan of the hopping around it does when you run, and all the weight being directed onto your hips, and just the lack of the ability to grab anything you'd need at a moments notices (odds are I would have to get a butt pack put onto the webbing, and there's nothing lamer in the world to me then that)
maybe I'll have to pull the old webbing out of retirement and give it a whirl and see what I can do to carry everything I need, but still be able to access it then.
Greg

Kit slutting......I'll definitely remember that one...that's funny.

If'n the money for new webbing is coming from your own pocket, have you considered just modifying your existing webbing?

I've seen my share of flash new expensive webbing.....but I've also seen guys who have gotten good at stitching and punching to modify their existing webbing to suit.......might be the cheaper, more effective option to modify your own kit or use your "bro network" to find someone in the army who does it......every decent sized infantry unit must have someone who can do a good job on webbing mods.

If I showed up to play Army and I had an aftermarket flash supressor on my gun...people would be lining up for yonks to give me the bash....heehee

On a side note......our C9s are getting mod'ed with rails on the top cover for optics...woohoo...I'd rather have a Gimpy

That means I'll have to get dorked out in a "Look at me!" photo of me with a gun, with optics, wearing NVGs, a PRR, balaclava and a shemagh wearing vest webbing to look all "Group" then I'll be all fashionable and stuff here on milphotos! ;)

[Flagg]

Last ex I was on I justed taped my C9 boxes back to back, made the paper with it toop-)

100 rounders?

Any way you might have a photo or two of it?

I THINK I know what you mean, but not sure.

What's the advantage over having a 200 rounder bag(unless unavailable) on the gun or a spare belt bag or belt in the pouch closest to your left hand?

Cause if you've got 400 rounds hanging off the gun........you must have arms like a fiddler crab :)

[Flagg]

Straker makes a important ass saving point. If there are no other weapons in the squad/plt modded for each solider, then that might be a good sign that it may not be a good idea to 'play' around with 'yours'.
Do you get to take ur weapon home with you or do you hand it over to the armorer?

Our point, perform a little CYA, and ask first.
DO NOT BE "THAT GUY" !

"What do you mean what's wrong with my gun Sar Major?"

"Ohhhhhhhhhhh....yeah that........well......I saw this photo on milphotos.net and I always wanted to have one of them there Para barreled C9s...so I just hacksawed off half the barrel and it still sort of shoots straight....don't worry, I've got it all figured out, I'll superglue it and get it back in the Arms Cote without anyone finding out.......looks sweet huh?"

"You look angry Sar Major, why are you turning purple like that?" :)

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

First all all, where and how are you operating? Ie, light, mech, motorised. Open or close country?

The answers to those questions will drive the ideas to the sort of kit you want, at least generally to begin with.

[Yeoman]

well from what I'm understanding it's going to be; driven to a general area, and then lots and lots of humping for sweep and clear type of ops.
Greg

[Beer Monster]

well from what I'm understanding it's going to be; driven to a general area, and then lots and lots of humping for sweep and clear type of ops.
Greg

In this case I would suggest webbing, however, it looks as though all the reasons I would give for selecting it are the ones you don't like :) :| !

It helps spread the load around you hips (from the sounds of things you will be carrying a fair amount of bombs, bullets and water) much better than a vest (all pockets on the front so can get front heavy ...... back problems and rubs on your neck).

Also as previously suggested whilst in contact chances are you'll be trying to dig a shell scrape with your eyelids so the closer you can get to the ground the better hence beltkit with pouches on the side. Anything extra that won't fit in your webbing and daysack probably doesn't need to go (...... unless Canuk webbing is particularly pants?). If capacity is an issue then go look at the SASS website as they do a variety of big pouches.

To make it more comfortable try getting a hip pad and (I'm now going into sucking egg territory .... my apologies) but make sure you bungee your kit together to stop the bounce. Done properly it should hardly bounce at all (especially with a hip pad). It should also free up your smock pockets which you can fill with crap to make the obligitory "combat ****s".

Just my 2 pence.

[Sanabolic]

100 rounders?

Any way you might have a photo or two of it?

I THINK I know what you mean, but not sure.

What's the advantage over having a 200 rounder bag(unless unavailable) on the gun or a spare belt bag or belt in the pouch closest to your left hand?

Cause if you've got 400 rounds hanging off the gun........you must have arms like a fiddler crab :)

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/photo/data/500/hs1462320_22.JPG

It was basically like a mag coupler, except with tape and C9 boxes. I had to tape the belt down on the bottom side so the belt didn't fly out. And ya, 400 rounds hanging off the bottom is heavy, but it's better than carrying a backpack just for one box.

[Yeoman]

well I think I'll give the webbing a try for now then. I'll bring it out of retirement and see what the riggers can jig up for me when it comes to padding. maybe I'll see about having the straps modified so they have some pouches of some sort attached to it (ie pw tags, flex cuffs, gloves, possibly a few other smallish things).
now all I've got to do is find all my bloody c9 pouches for it eeish.
Greg

[Beer Monster]

well I think I'll give the webbing a try for now then. I'll bring it out of retirement and see what the riggers can jig up for me when it comes to padding. maybe I'll see about having the straps modified so they have some pouches of some sort attached to it (ie pw tags, flex cuffs, gloves, possibly a few other smallish things).
now all I've got to do is find all my bloody c9 pouches for it eeish.
Greg

I've always liked the idea of the Maxpedition Rollypoly (http://www.militarymorons.com/misc/maxgear.html#rp) (sh*t name but a good idea) ........ however, I've never actually seen one let alone used it so if anyone has an info .......

Basically a pouch (various sizes) that rolls up onto itself and takes up minimum space on your belt. There when you need to carry extra kit but folds away when not in use. It doesn't have any support so it would probably bounce a bit. Worth a look?

[croberts038]

why don't you just save yourself the trouble and make due with what you've gotten issued? i'd buy a crazy rig for tour, not for an ex. you must be a toon.

[Yeoman]

how about ****ing 3RCR, and it is for tour.
it's just called early investment, why buy something three months before a tour and find out you don't like how it's designed?
watch what you say.
Greg

[Sabre]

Hey greg, the way things are going out there you will most likely be spending some time trying to sh*g the dirt and needing a good ****e fire position. For that reason I'd suggest using your belt kit.

Try this, look out some good minimi pouches that you like and then whatever CF issue pouches work for you. Get a hippo pad (if they sell them there) and a strong belt with a good buckle (cargo rigs are popular here) and drop by the local tailors/riggers. Get them to sew the belt onto the hippo pad and then the pouches on top. Make sure you have some attachment for your yoke on there. You could get a yank LBV fitted on there too, I use one and it's great for spare mags or torches/med kit etc. If you can't find a hippo pad then I'm sure you can get hold of some closed cell foam and cordura and get the riggers to knock something up.

Alternatively, try to find a South African vest. It's a good compromise between the two and could take minimi box belts in the side pouches.

[Yeoman]

yeah that's what I'm going to do.
I'll be sending my kit to the riggers and letting them mod the straps so that they can ahold some pouches and going from there. I'll see how that turns out, and wether or not it's going to piss me off like it did before.
as well; what was you guys personal preference on the soft bags? 100's or 200's? I can acquire both, just wondering what you guys thought.
Greg

[Pete031]

You know the extra pouches we get for the small pack system?? Well One or two of them turn into gay fanny packs, however, you can wear them across your body, one on each side. Problem is you have to have the ammo loose. It works with the gpmg. I had 660 rounds of 762 just on my body. You can gucci it up, by buying some crap that you will only end up using for one ex, or you can save some money and use some of the issued stuff, whatever floats your boat.
Have a good Jump!!


Oh yeah, 3RCR isin't going on tour anytime soon... 2RCR is next in the breach..... Unless I am totally ****ed...

[Pete031]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/photo/data/500/hs1462320_22.JPG

It was basically like a mag coupler, except with tape and C9 boxes. I had to tape the belt down on the bottom side so the belt didn't fly out. And ya, 400 rounds hanging off the bottom is heavy, but it's better than carrying a backpack just for one box.

Sorry for double posting or whatever, but this up above is the most retarded thing I have ever seen. Mo Mo Mo....

[Yeoman]

you just told me something that I hate the most; loose ammo. I HATE that. I want everything as close to my body as I can have it.
as well; have you ever worn the day pack for an actual long period of time with body armour on? it is horribly uncomfortable, that's why I'm doing this. that I want to easily access as much ammo on the battlefield as I can.
Greg

[Pete031]

as well; have you ever worn the day pack for an actual long period of time with body armour on? it is horribly uncomfortable, that's why I'm doing this.

Of course I have...
Anyway, the bags aren't loose, just the ammo inside the bag. If you are to be using more than the 200 rounds on your gun, it won't matter that the ammo you are pulling out of the bag is loose, becuase most likely you will be if you are using that much ammo you will be in a position to rebomb either your aussie patrol pouch or will just be using the belt. Anyway the best thing to do is be comfortable, as long as it doesn't hinder your reload time.