Luftwaffe air kills scoring system

[madpendos]

I want to ask expertes here on Luftwaffe air kills scoring system.

I heard that, for example, if four german airplanes scored a kill, everyone in that group gets the kill.

Anyone has comment on this ? Lokos ? Kitsune ?

[Midav]

May not be an expert, but hope this helps:

Luftwaffe Score System

The Luftwaffe scoring system was rational and realistic. "One pilot - one victory" was the straightforward scoring rule. If more then one pilot claimed a kill they had to settle who would get it, if in the end they still remained undecided, the kill was awarded to the Staffel.

Without a witness, a Luftwaffe pilot had no chance of victory confirmation. Such a claim, even if filed, would not pass beyond his Gruppenkommandeur.

The final destruction or explosion of an enemy aircraft in the air, or the bail-out of the pilot, had to be observed either on gun-camera film, or at least one other human witness. This witness could be the pilot's wingman, squadron mate, or a ground observer of the encounter. there was no possibility, as with some RAF and USAAF pilots, of having a victory credited because the claiming officer was a man of his word. The Luftwaffe rule was simple "no witness - no victory credit." This rule applied universally in the Luftwaffe, no matter what the pilot's rank or status.

This made the Luftwaffe claim procedure possibly the most rigid and trustworthy of all World War Two combatants (as always mistakes have been made, but nothing points out that this was deliberate or significantly higher then on the Allied side).

The Luftwaffe system was impartial, inflexible and far less error-****e than British or American procedures. Luftwaffe fighter pilots sometimes had to wait more then a year for victory confirmation to reach them from the Luftwaffe High Command.

The Germans differed radically from the Allies with the Luftwaffe's introduction of a complicated "points" system, instituted to bring a modicum of uniformity into the bestowal of higher decorations.

Rest can be found here:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta/jgscor.htm

[Luno]

May not be an expert, but hope this helps:

Luftwaffe Score System

The Luftwaffe scoring system was rational and realistic. "One pilot - one victory" was the straightforward scoring rule. If more then one pilot claimed a kill they had to settle who would get it, if in the end they still remained undecided, the kill was awarded to the Staffel.

Without a witness, a Luftwaffe pilot had no chance of victory confirmation. Such a claim, even if filed, would not pass beyond his Gruppenkommandeur.

The final destruction or explosion of an enemy aircraft in the air, or the bail-out of the pilot, had to be observed either on gun-camera film, or at least one other human witness. This witness could be the pilot's wingman, squadron mate, or a ground observer of the encounter. there was no possibility, as with some RAF and USAAF pilots, of having a victory credited because the claiming officer was a man of his word. The Luftwaffe rule was simple "no witness - no victory credit." This rule applied universally in the Luftwaffe, no matter what the pilot's rank or status.

This made the Luftwaffe claim procedure possibly the most rigid and trustworthy of all World War Two combatants (as always mistakes have been made, but nothing points out that this was deliberate or significantly higher then on the Allied side).

The Luftwaffe system was impartial, inflexible and far less error-****e than British or American procedures. Luftwaffe fighter pilots sometimes had to wait more then a year for victory confirmation to reach them from the Luftwaffe High Command.

The Germans differed radically from the Allies with the Luftwaffe's introduction of a complicated "points" system, instituted to bring a modicum of uniformity into the bestowal of higher decorations.

Rest can be found here:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta/jgscor.htm (http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Erhorta/jgscor.htm)

are you sure? correct me if i am wrong but dident the Messerschmitt have a gun camera? so how hard can it be to see if the pilot did kill the enemy

[Breakfast in Vegas]

A friend of mine who works for a major video game producer of simulations actually met Gunter Rall. Rall complained that Erich Hartmann's 352 kills were grossly exaggerated and that scoring was flawed, including the sharing of kills. He estimated Hartmann's true tally at about 180... but he might have just been sour grapes... :)

Seems to be contradictory to what the official version of infallible German scoring says...

[Midav]

are you sure? correct me if i am wrong but dident the Messerschmitt have a gun camera? so how hard can it be to see if the pilot did kill the enemy

Speculation:

If you're fighting numerous enemies I would think it would be hard to keep a camera nice and steady to see if a kill was actually achieved.

[Luno]

hmm the camera is located beside the guns and when a shot is fired it takes a picture. you no one is holding the camera.

[Midav]

A friend of mine who works for a major video game producer of simulations actually met Gunter Rall. Rall complained that Erich Hartmann's 352 kills were grossly exaggerated and that scoring was flawed, including the sharing of kills. He estimated Hartmann's true tally at about 180... but he might have just been sour grapes... :)

Seems to be contradictory to what the official version of infallible German scoring says...

The major difference between the German and Western Allies' method of scoring victories was that the Germans were not allowed to share a victory.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta/jgscor.htm

So who is telling the truth here?

[Midav]

hmm the camera is located beside the guns and when a shot is fired it takes a picture. you no one is holding the camera.

Yes, but how do you know the aircraft was actually downed after it being hit? It may have only been damaged and thus does not count as a kill. It's possible it could have landed safely. If you have several aircraft on you, I would think a pilot would rather have an unconfirmed rather than risking his butt get shot down. =)

In most cases that I have seen, one can tell an aircraft was indeed been shot down. However, there are also many probables and unconfirmed reports...

[CRAZY MERC]

The major difference between the German and Western Allies' method of scoring victories was that the Germans were not allowed to share a victory.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta/jgscor.htm

So who is telling the truth here?

Its not true. German Luftwaffe did allow shared victory. There are some german sources covering that, just can't recall it at this moment. Also point system worked this way: "one engine = one point", "two engines = two points" and so on. Check " axis forum ", they have some good info on this subject.

[Midav]

Its not true. German Luftwaffe did allow shared victory. There are some german sources covering that, just can't recall it at this moment. Also point system worked this way: "one engine = one point", "two engines = two points" and so on. Check " axis forum ", they have some good info on this subject.

Ah ok, thank you.

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Any way you see it, guys like Rall or Hartmann who flew day in day out for most of the course of the war were going to get more ops for victories than Allied pilots... and also be damn lucky to survive all that air combat especially as the odds continued to turn against them.

Hartmann's supposed strategy was to wait until the enemy plane "filled" his crosshairs completely and then let fly with his cannons... sometimes damaging his own plane as he flew through the debris.

[Sergei]

Any way you see it, guys like Rall or Hartmann who flew day in day out for most of the course of the war were going to get more ops for victories than Allied pilots... and also be damn lucky to survive all that air combat especially as the odds continued to turn against them.

Hartmann's supposed strategy was to wait until the enemy plane "filled" his crosshairs completely and then let fly with his cannons... sometimes damaging his own plane as he flew through the debris.

Hartmann is damn lucky. He has been shot down 15 times while on the Russian front and even taken prisoner once (he escaped).

[Jippo]

Its not true. German Luftwaffe did allow shared victory. There are some german sources covering that, just can't recall it at this moment. Also point system worked this way: "one engine = one point", "two engines = two points" and so on. Check " axis forum ", they have some good info on this subject.

You are mixing up two things:

1. Air victories

2. scoring system

Battling Viermotts (B-17's, B-24, ...) was considerably more difficult than fighting on the Eastern Front, that is if scoring actual air victories is a measure. Thus Germans developed a seperate system where you would get points for things you did in the air: forcing bomber out of the formation would give x number of points, shooting it down a little more than that. These would add up and would be considered when promotions and decorations were given, and would even out the possibility for these between the two fronts.

Air victories on the other hand were very strickt as said by Midav - one plane one kill. Overclaiming happened a lot on all fronts, and comparing numbers after war has revealed that German system was quite good compared to western allies (i.e. better at IIRC 1 actual kill : 2 claims in east front), whilst soviet numbers had the most air in the european area. Finns did roughly 1:1 victories vs. Russian losses which was the best as far as I know, but even then some losses were not caused by Finn pilots so there was overclaiming. And for sure not always did the right pilots get the credit.


-jippo

[Breakfast in Vegas]

Sergei:

I think a GREAT deal of luck was required to survive the Russian front over the course of the war...

[Liba85]

yeah, I've been also thinking about that. It dosen't matter if you are german or a russia, but 4 years of heavy fighting and after that going home alive. That sure means that somebody is watching you from upstairs.

[Jippo]

yeah, I've been also thinking about that. It dosen't matter if you are german or a russia, but 4 years of heavy fighting and after that going home alive. That sure means that somebody is watching you from upstairs.

I met Mr. Rall personally also, and he sure did have some hairy tales. Like the one when he was chased by flock of P-47's and lost his thumb. Also one air victory he got was a collision with a soviet fighter, he barely made it back home after the propeller of the soviet plane tore into his plane!


-jippo

[Masai]

You are all wrong, they had a BBIIGG chalk board at the base and everyone wrote down their kills, it all depended on honour...

Seriously, interesting read so far...

[CRTS27]

yeah, I've been also thinking about that. It dosen't matter if you are german or a russia, but 4 years of heavy fighting and after that going home alive. That sure means that somebody is watching you from upstairs.

Not 4 years! Many German pilots started in "Legion Condor" and fought the whole war from September 1st 1939 to May 1945!
A small list of those pilots
Hans-Detlev von Kessel, Oberleutnant
Martin Harlinghausen, Major
Karl-Heinz Wolff, Major
Wilhelm Balthasar, Oberleutnant
Otto Bertram, Oberleutnant
Wilhelm Enselen, Oberleutnant
Adolf Galland, Oberleutnant
Harro Harder, Hauptmann
Günther Lützow, Hauptmann
Werner Mölders, Hauptmann
Walter Oesau, Oberleutnant
Reinhard Seiler, Oberleutnant
Wolfgang Schellmann, Hauptmann
Joachim Schlichting, Hauptmann
Wilhelm Boddem, Leutnant
Eberhardt Kraft, Oberleutnant
Oskar Henrici, Leutnant
Heinz Runze, Leutnant (postum)
Max Graf Hoyos, Oberleutnant
Karl Mehnert, Oberstleutnant
Rudolf Freiherr von Moreau, Hauptmann (postum)
Wolfgang Neudörffer, Hauptmann
Bernhard Stärcke, Oberleutnant
Paul Fehlhaber, Leutnant
Wolfram Freiherr von Richthofen, Generalmajor

[Kilgor]

I met Mr. Rall personally also, and he sure did have some hairy tales. Like the one when he was chased by flock of P-47's and lost his thumb. Also one air victory he got was a collision with a soviet fighter, he barely made it back home after the propeller of the soviet plane tore into his plane!


-jippo

Rudel's tales were also amazing, he was one of the best and certainly most lucky pilots in the war. (yes not a fighter pilot as such)

However he ruined alot of respect by remaining a nazi after the war.

According to official Luftwaffe figures in total, Rudel flew some 2,530 combat missions (a world record), during which he destroyed almost 2,000 ground targets (among them 519 tanks, 70 assault craft/landing boats, 150 self-propelled guns, 4 armoured trains and 800 other vehicles; as well as 9 planes (2 Il-2's and 7 fighters). He also sank a battleship, two cruisers and a destroyer. He was shot down or force-landed 32 times (several times behind enemy lines), always somehow managing to escape capture despite Stalin himself putting a 100,000 rouble bounty on his head. He was also wounded five times and rescued six stranded aircrew from enemy territory. The vast majority of his missions were spent piloting the various models of the Junkers Ju 87, though by the end of the war he was flying the ground-attack variant of the Fw 190.

[James]

I thought German pilots were credited with kills on the ground too - not all of Hartmann's 352 were in air combat. A bunch of those were strafed on airfields in Poland and Russia...

Is this correct?

[Kilgor]

I thought German pilots were credited with kills on the ground too - not all of Hartmann's 352 were in air combat. A bunch of those were strafed on airfields in Poland and Russia...

Is this correct?

Hartmann started later in the war, not in the inital phase of the russian campaign where the huge ground kills were chalked up. The german pilots who did take part in that phase did get credited with the ground kills.

Its worth noting that attacking airfields was still a dangerous mission due to flack and small arms fire. If the plane was hit, there was no chance of bailing out with enough time for a chute.

[James]

Ok, thanks for the info.

It would be interesting to compare how many planes tha Allies recorded as lost and compare that to claims awarded to Greman pilots. I suspect that more planes were lost than were claimed.

[Jippo]

Rudel's tales were also amazing, he was one of the best and certainly most lucky pilots in the war. (yes not a fighter pilot as such)

However he ruined alot of respect by remaining a nazi after the war.


No, not Heinz Ulrich Rudel, no! I wouldn't mention meeting him, grazy nazi if I ever saw one.

I met Gunther Rall! This fellow:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guenther_Rall

"Günther Rall (born 10 March 1918) is the third most successful fighter ace in History. He achieved a total of 275 victories: 272 on the Eastern Front, of which 241 were against Soviet fighters. He flew a total of 621 combat missions, was shot down 8 times and was wounded 3 times.
Contents
[hide]

* 1 Early life
* 2 World War II
* 3 After the war
* 4 See also
* 5 External links
* 6 Notes

[edit]

Early life

He was born in Gaggenau, a small village in the Schwarzwald region in Germany, as a son of a merchant. He joined the Army and became a Fähnrich in 1936. He entered the War College in Dresden, where he was influenced to join the Luftwaffe. He qualified as a pilot in 1938 and was posted to Jagdgeschwader 52, with the rank of Leutnant.
[edit]

World War II

Rall first saw combat during the Battle of France, and on 18 May 1940, he scored his first victory, a Curtiss Hawk fighter. Later JG 52 was moved to Calais where it took part in the Battle of Britain. Because of heavy losses in the unit, he was given command as a Staffelkapitän of 8./JG 52[1] on 25 July, and was promoted to Oberleutnant on 1 August. He fought with JG 52 over Britain until the unit was withdrawn to replace losses.

Rall then took part in the occupation of Romania until March 1941 and the Balkan campaign. He also partook in Operation Merkur, the airborne invasion of Crete in May 1941. After the successful conclusion of Merkur, JG 52 was transferred back to Romania to help defend the oil fields there from Soviet bombers. With Operation Barbarossa, Rall found repeated opportunity for combat, scoring his second, third, and fourth victories in three days of June 1941. During a 5 day period, Rall and his Staffel destroyed some 50 Soviet aircraft. He hit his stride in October, with 12 victories.

JG 52 was then attached to the operations of Heeresgruppe Süd and continued operating on the southern flank of the Eastern Front. On 28 November 1941, he scored his 36th victory, but on the same day his engine was hit and seized up. He crash landed behind German lines and broke his back in three places. His injuries were such that he had to spend nine months recuperating before he could rejoin his unit in August 1942, in which month he downed 26 Soviet aircraft.

From August to November Rall claimed another 38 enemies, bringing his total to 101 victories. On 26 November 1942, he was given the Eichenlaub to his Ritterkreuz by Adolf Hitler personally. In April 1943, he was promoted to Hauptmann and was given the position as Gruppenkommandeur for III./JG 52 on 6 July. On 7 August, he logged his 150th victory, with his 200th coming near the end of the month, for which he was awarded the Schwerter to his Ritterkreuz. In October 1943, Rall had his best month, downing 40 aircraft. A month later, he became only the second pilot (after Walter Nowotny) to achieve 250 kills. During 1943, Rall was credited with 151 airplanes, a figure exceeded only by Nowotny (196) and Hermann Graf (160).

On 19 April 1944, Rall was transferred to Jagdgeschwader 11, were he took up position as Gruppenkommandeur of II./JG 11. JG 11 was tasked with Reichsverteidigung (Home Defence) and Rall led his unit against the bomber fleets of 8th Air Force. On 1 May 1944, Rall was promoted to Major, a rank he retained until the end of the war. On 12 May, he was wounded again after having fought four P-47 Thunderbolts and shooting down two. He had a thumb shot off and was hospitalized for many months because of the onset of infections. He returned to active duty in November.

His last posting was with Jagdgeschwader 300, operating from a variety of airfields in southern Germany during the last months of the war. It is unlikely that he saw much combat action during this period. He was taken prisoner by American forces after the fighting in Germany ended.
[edit]

After the war

Günther Rall settled in West Germany after the war and continued his career in the Luftwaffe der Bundeswehr after the re-militarization of West Germany in 1955. From 1 January 1971 to 31 March 1973, he held the position of Inspekteur der Luftwaffe der Bundeswehr and from 1 April 1974 to 13 October 1975, he was a military attache with NATO. At the end of his career he had attained the rank of Generalleutnant."

[Jippo]

Ok, thanks for the info.

It would be interesting to compare how many planes tha Allies recorded as lost and compare that to claims awarded to Greman pilots. I suspect that more planes were lost than were claimed.

More claims were made than planes lost, on all sides. Only front in Europe I know was working close to the actual 1 claim vs 1 loss on enemy side was the Finnish front. Although at times overclaiming in the Finnish front was reaching 3-4 to 1 kill.

Germans were overclaiming 2-3 to 1 in eastern front, Soviets 6-7 to 1 minimum. In Kursk battle figures were 1.5 to 1 (Germans) compared to 15 to 1 for Soviets.

So it all depends on the conditions etc...

In general German system was considered to be better and more accurate than western allied kill systems. In Battle of Britain Brits overclaimed 3:1 and defensive battle is the easiest one in terms of claim verification.


-jippo