Mexico Tells U.S. Not To Build Border Fence

[ed316]

http://a.abcnews.com/images/site/printlogo.jpg (http://abcnews.go.com/)


Mexico Tells U.S. Not To Build Border Fence

Mexico Sends Note to U.S. Saying Plan to Build Fencing on Common Border Will Damage Relations

By IOAN GRILLO

The Associated Press

MEXICO CITY - Mexico sent a diplomatic note to the U.S. government on Monday saying a plan to build hundreds of miles of fencing on their common border would damage relations.
President-elect Felipe Calderon urged U.S. officials to reconsider the plan, saying one "could stop more migrants with a kilometer of new roads and development (in Mexico) than with a wall."

In the letter to the U.S. State Department, Mexico's Foreign Relations Department said only comprehensive reform could stem the tide of illegal immigrants heading north in search of work.

"The diplomatic note explains that the construction of this barrier will hurt the relations between the two countries and that it is not the solution to strengthen security on the border," the department said.

President Vicente Fox, who leaves office Dec. 1, has spent his six-year term lobbying for a new guest worker program and an amnesty for the millions of Mexicans working illegally in the United States proposals that have been supported by President Bush.

However, U.S. lawmakers, who face midterm elections in November, have shown a greater appetite for border security measures. On Friday the Senate approved a bill authorizing 700 miles of new fencing in border states.

Fox has called the barrier "shameful" and compared it to the Berlin Wall.(Berlin wall kept people)

Calderon said Monday that the barrier would not deter migrants from walking across the desert or swimming over the Rio Grande in search of a better life.( Knows that life is crap for poor Mexicans)

"A border that unites two nations allows the free movement of labor but is closed to drugs, guns and criminals," he added. Calderon spoke in Guatemala, where he met with President Oscar Berger on his first international tour since the July presidential election.

On Friday, Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez said he would try to persuade Bush not to sign the bill.

"We think it is a gesture that doesn't reflect the friendship between the nations of Latin America and the Caribbean and the United States," Derbez said.

Mexican President-elect Felipe Calderon has also criticized the fence plans.

An estimated 11 million Mexican citizens are in the United States, about half of them illegally.

Last year, Mexican migrants sent home more than $20 billion in remittances, the country's second leading source of foreign income after oil. In the first eight months of 2006, remittances rose by nearly 20 percent over the same period last year, according to figures released by the Mexican Central Bank on Monday.



http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2520305


Got to get that remittance money.

[Greek soldier]

Fox has called the barrier "shameful" and compared it to the Berlin Wall.


?????

I think Vincente Fox has an alternative solution I guess.

And btw, the fence the U.S wants to build is for protecting her sovereignty, not to isolate a country.

[ed316]

?????

I think Vincente Fox has an alternative solution I guess.

And btw, the fence the U.S wants to build is for protecting her sovereignty, not to isolate a country.

Because in reality the Mexican government has no way of fixing thier economy. Just broken promises.

[MichaelF]

Mexico Tells U.S. Not To Build Border Fence


Last time they "told" us not to do something, we took a chunk of their real estate...

[kaspur_eh]

Haha Vicente Fox is such a joke.

[Miles.]

?????

I think Vincente Fox has an alternative solution I guess.

And btw, the fence the U.S wants to build is for protecting her sovereignty, not to isolate a country.

The Empty Suit has no alternative solution except to export more his nation's indigents across the border.

Mexico can piss and moan all they want...it's not like the US government will ever build this fence anyway. It's a hard decision, which is why they won't go near it.

[Decebalus]

President-elect Felipe Calderon urged U.S. officials to reconsider the plan, saying one "could stop more migrants with a kilometer of new roads and development (in Mexico) than with a wall."

What is that supposte to mean? That the US should help build Mexico?

I think Mexico's problems is that its a country that its trying to be too much like the US. They have to get rid of corruption an focus on getting rid of poverty. Its really hard to do that when you have a system like the one in the US. The US has a good system but for a country like Mexico, it doesn't work.

For example, in the US you have tax payer's money being spend on court charges where some illigal alien sues the police department for not teaching their cops spanish.

[Mastermind]

Well, I would say to Mexico, we will start listening to you tell us not to build something on our sovergin soil, when you start listening to us about total corruption in Mexican government...mean while... Fcuk OFF!

[Name Taken]

**** if they need help building the damn thing I'm free weekends!

[ZaakM433]

Would simply shooting everyone trying to illigally cross the border threaten our relationship with Mexico less?

[dangerclose]

Fox has called the barrier "shameful" and compared it to the Berlin Wall.



Yeah whatever. As long as it's on our side of the border we can build an alligator-filled flaming trench if we want.

What's with these turd world tin pot dictators these days?

[Lefty]

"For example, in the US you have tax payer's money being spend on court charges where some illigal alien sues the police department for not teaching their cops spanish."

Yeah, I'd rather have that all going towards a tactic of demographic control that has historically never worked for long periods of time. :roll:

How about holding some businesses accountable for hiring these guys? If I've got a stream of ants trying to eat my sandwitch at a picnic, is it easier to place as many barriers between the ants and the sandwitch as I can, or to simply wrap up the food?

[wubanga101]

Yeah whatever. As long as it's on our side of the border we can build an alligator-filled flaming trench if we want.

What's with these turd world tin pot dictators these days?
wont that kill the alligators???:roll:

[Mastermind]

wont that kill the alligators???:roll:

Not if you use genetically altered fire proof alligators with a mad hunger for hot Mexican food....p-)

[Miles.]

Yall are a bunch of racist scumbags...


SARCASM

[wubanga101]

Yall are a bunch of racist scumbags...


SARCASM hey im just lookin out for the alligators...everybody else are gun holding rednecksp-)
oh and i JUST noticed the sarcasm.

[Laworkerbee]

They won't complain if we hire Mexicans to build the fence, thats been my solution all along p-)

[Ordie]

I highly doubt a wall would do much good.

The Chinese built one and they were invaded twice from the North (Mongols / Manchus)

The French built the Maginot Line, and the Germans went around it.

The Germans build the Sigfried Line, and that did not stop Patton.

The Berlin Wall and the East German border did not deter East Germans from defecting.

Migrants will find a 51 ft. ladder for a 50 ft. fence. They will go to the 701 st mile of a 700 mile long fence. They will dig under, fly over or go around via boat. Or bribe a US Customs / Border Patrol Agent to look the other way.

[Hessian]

Race, has nothing to do with it 29% of the USA Prison population is illigal. We have a problem. The mexican goverment has it's army on the border and stops HISPANIC people coming from Central America... does that have anything to do with race?

[beNder]

wont that kill the alligators???:roll:

WONT SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE ALLIGATORS!

[Ordie]

Yeah whatever. As long as it's on our side of the border we can build an alligator-filled flaming trench if we want.

What's with these turd world tin pot dictators these days?

You might violate the Endangered Speices Act.
They are not native to the Rio Grande and might threated the local fish population.

[2Sheds_Jackson]

I highly doubt a wall would do much good.

The Chinese built one and they were invaded twice from the North (Mongols / Manchus)

The French built the Maginot Line, and the Germans went around it.

The Germans build the Sigfried Line, and that did not stop Patton.

The Berlin Wall and the East German border did not deter East Germans from defecting.

Migrants will find a 51 ft. ladder for a 50 ft. fence. They will go to the 701 st mile of a 700 mile long fence. They will dig under, fly over or go around via boat. Or bribe a US Customs / Border Patrol Agent to look the other way.

You can't stop people from stealing your car, but I bet you still lock it.

[wubanga101]

You can't stop people from stealing your car, but I bet you still lock it.Minefields?p-)

[Versace]

That wall idea is a complete joke. They'll find other ways to get in. Already half of illegal mexicans get in the US with a visa tourists, and then stay. Otherwise, heck, they can keep digging. A wall on 1/3 on the border ? Big deal, that leaves 2/3 of the border open. That won't change a single thing.

[praetorian6]

In the letter to the U.S. State Department, Mexico's Foreign Relations Department said only comprehensive reform could stem the tide of illegal immigrants heading north in search of work.

On their side would be greeaaaaatt, mmmkay?

[Belrick]

You can't stop people from stealing your car, but I bet you still lock it.

Brilliant come back!

[Ordie]

You can't stop people from stealing your car, but I bet you still lock it.

Sure, why not add a car alarm. There so ubiquitous and annoying that nobody pays attention if your car is being stolen or not.

[Kersh]

They won't complain if we hire Mexicans to build the fence, thats been my solution all along p-)

Outstanding!

[Hispeed2]

I think a border fence/wall would be a great idea. Now why would Mexico not want it? I don't hate Mexicans and I don't hate Mexico. But what's going on is a very big problem. Our border is so porous.

[Urzza]

Minefields?p-)
There are better ways.
http://www.stickdeath.com/2004auto.html
(NWS)

[2Sheds_Jackson]

Anybody sitting around waiting for the perfect solution will be waiting a long, long time. Forever, actually. So what can we do? We can do things that will help a little. We make it more difficult, not impossible. Make the journey much more strenuous and difficult. And change what happens to them when they're caught on the wrong side.

Instead of simply walking across a 50 foot wide, ankle deep "river", they'll have to find a way up and over (carry that 51 foot ladder with them on the way). Or, they'll have to walk hundreds of miles out into the desert to go around.

Probably more than anything else, it will serve as a symbol that they are not welcome unless they go through the process legally. A lot of the people coming in are very simple country folk - and who knows what stories they've been told. They'll be no mistaking a big-ass wall.

Problems with the visa system - great, let's work on that too. People getting in by hiding inside shipping containers - ok, let's work on that one. Too many American businesses hiring illegals - let's lock 'em up. Things will change, and for the better. I don't even have a problem with the number of them coming over, I have a problem with the fact that they are outside the system. The system is a closed-loop and it needs to be closed or it will bleed money.

[Ordie]

The US issues H1B Visas to Indian techies for jobs that cannot be done by qualified Americans in Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley companies sponsors them are under contract. The same is true for Mandarin teachers from China who teach in American public schools.

Why not issue H1B Visas to Mexicans for low skill jobs that US companies have a hard time filling in. Employers sponsors them and work under contract.

Its safe, legal and no one dies in the desert.

[PanzerMaster]

The US issues H1B Visas to Indian techies for jobs that cannot be done by qualified Americans in Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley companies sponsors them are under contract. The same is true for Mandarin teachers from China who teach in American public schools.

Why not issue H1B Visas to Mexicans for low skill jobs that US companies have a hard time filling in. Employers sponsors them and work under contract.

Its safe, legal and no one dies in the desert.


I think that in the US there is plenty of US citizen that are skilled techies...the problem is that they cost more!

An H1B, AFAIK, is obliged to stay with the same employer for some time, because it can be sent away. The Employer thus "enslave" the H1B paying him less than a native and overworking him.

And for the problem of illegal unskilled aliens take my opinion:
It is not in the interested of the power groups in the US to stop immigration. They need low wage semi-slave labour.


If in the US some want to "fight" the illegal immigration They can. If you spot an employer of illegals...beat the crap out of him (financially, legally). Make the risk of employing illegals higher than the benefit of slave labour.

But, sorry, it is not in the interested of who own, and repeat, own the goverment.

Here in Italy we have the same problem. There is no more left or right (apart extremist morons). Our political class are made of rich professionals/enterprenurs or career politicians that have strict ties with the firsts.

So, no one care for the "native" citizen that demands jobs and adeguate compensations.

[nimer bortuqaal]

I agree with what 2Sheds said. My question is if your neighbor wanted to paint his house a different color than what you would prefer it to be, are you going to tell him that he cannot do it? I feel most Americans, reguardless of their political viewpoint, would tell their neighbor off if they were to be told they couldn't do this or do that with their own property. So why don't we as a country have this same attitude when our southern neighbor starts whining?

As a county, why do we put up with what Mexico says when it comes to our own soveignty and security? I think a fence is a lot better than putting tanks and mines on the border with shoot to kill ROE's. Of course that would never happen as our country is slowly circling the drain with it's attitude that you cannot hurt anyone's feelings and desire to always portray the assailant as a victim.

It is sad that Mexico's second largest industry consists of people sending part of their paycheck home after illegially entering another country. And I love Mexico's threat to send troops to the border if the Minute Men or the National Guard were to show up in to enforce the border. Better yet are the signs and flags and political statements that I saw down in San Diego on my last vacation. If you don't like the rules in America.... get out and stay out. It just pisses me off that there's a possibilty I could leave my family without provider trying to serve my country, its interests, and the freedom that those before us worked so hard for, to turn around and leave our borders as open as they are. It makes no sense.

I'm going now to call my wife to tell her to turn on the house alarm and unlock all the doors and windows. Maybe she should just put up a sign that says "come in and take what you want". That's the stupid metality of our country - profit margins or not.

[8thidpathfinderpower]

Yeah, tell Fox that the fence is not for isolation. Reasons being, 1/3 third of Mexicos income comes from the money immegrants send home from their jobs here in the states...not to mention the money from illegal drugs being transported across the border...flowing into his pockets on a regular basis.

[XShipRider]

Did Vicente say it in English or Spanish? It could make a difference.

I suspect there's a lot of money to thwart the new fence. There will
be holes in this thing even before it's completed. Why? Because
someone, on both sides of the border, is making a ton of pesos and
dollars transporting these people through known crossing points.

[PILMAN]

The US should get in contact with Israel, we need their suggestions for a wall :)

[mi35d]

We'll stop our planned wall and fences when Mexico tears down the ones on it's southern border and opens her door to all immigrants.

[talib_killa34]

They won't complain if we hire Mexicans to build the fence, thats been my solution all along p-)


There's a alot of work in LA just waiting for that too...plenty of sh*tty paved streets and potholes galore, graffiti to paint over, condemned houses to repair, opportunity knocks! Lots of work. Hire 'em, then fire them who cares? They go home PAID.

I am being sincere here btw.

:)

[Ordie]

It is not in the interested of the power groups in the US to stop immigration. They need low wage semi-slave labour.

Some of the largest contributors to the GOP (Republican Party) are Agri-Businesses, housing, hotels, restaurants and meat & poultry industries. They all depend on immigrant labor for thier profits.

The largest employer sector for undocumented workers are the private households (Soccer moms and dads). These are your two income upper middle class SUV driving households who usually hire nannies, housekeepers, and gardeners. Sometimes they get help from day laborers outside Home Depot for that backyard do it yourself deck project.
Arresting soccer moms and dads could potentially cause problems with your voting block.

The problem in Italy is one of 0% birth rate and an aging population. This is probably why the government is granting Italian Citizenship to any Argentine who can claim an Italian grandparent. Argentines come to fill in the gap.

[Greek soldier]

I read that Bush approved the construction of the fence. Any link to this story?

[Creeper]

The US issues H1B Visas to Indian techies for jobs that cannot be done by qualified Americans in Silicon Valley. Silicon Valley companies sponsors them are under contract. The same is true for Mandarin teachers from China who teach in American public schools.

Why not issue H1B Visas to Mexicans for low skill jobs that US companies have a hard time filling in. Employers sponsors them and work under contract.

Its safe, legal and no one dies in the desert.

I have a few issues about your op.
> Indian techies and alike working for Fortune 500 or similiar usually have zero health desrepcies. They have their shots, good physical condition etc,, and etc,,,.
> Any or most companies that hire Mexican or similiar will not pay there taxes, S/S on and on. (1099)
> Additionally, I will tie the 1st and 2nd Bullet Pt. by stating that a H1B Visa for a person from Mexico (or similiar) will not work that if a Co. will not pay the taxes , S/S on and on,,, there will not be any Health Care for the said workers,, aswell.
The thoughts of Visas will not work.
Oh,, BTW> lets not forget about the 'shifty-eyed' Middle Easterns making do as a 'Mexican' - going thru the back door.
the U.S. Economy will have to make adjustments in future policies.
P.S.>>>> Screw V.Fox,, build the fence and put 'Turrets' every 1/4 mile.

Just my .02 Euro.

[Ordie]

Oh,, BTW> lets not forget about the 'shifty-eyed' Middle Easterns making do as a 'Mexican' - going thru the back door.

The 9/11 murderers were all here legally with visas with the full knowledge of the FBI.

Talk about an open door, where is the fence along the border with Canada. Canada has much more lax rules of entry. What is stopping a potential migrant from walking across into Minnesota.

[bubkusjones]

The 9/11 murderers were all here legally with visas with the full knowledge of the FBI.

Talk about an open door, where is the fence along the border with Canada. Canada has much more lax rules of entry. What is stopping a potential migrant from walking across into Minnesota.

Much larger border to fence off.

[Creeper]

The 9/11 murderers were all here legally with visas with the full knowledge of the FBI.

Talk about an open door, where is the fence along the border with Canada. Canada has much more lax rules of entry. What is stopping a potential migrant from walking across into Minnesota.

OK, good pt. Adjustments have and will continue to be made.To include your quote.

When I leave my house, all the doors and windows are locked. Make it happen to this Continent. (I know, LOL, easier said than done. but it must start ,, somewhere)
No worries.

[praetorian6]

I read that Bush approved the construction of the fence. Any link to this story?

You are correct, sir.


By DEB RIECHMANN, ABC news


SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. Oct 4, 2006 (AP)— President Bush on Wednesday signed a homeland security bill that includes an overhaul of the Federal Emergency Management Agency and $1.2 billion for fencing along the U.S.-Mexico border to stem illegal immigration.


http://www.abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=2527375

[tuercas]

President Fox, like any other president for anyother country, will side with his people on international issues even if that side is not the correct side.

fencing does not work. one only needs to look at other high tech fencing attempts, the fencing at melilla and ceuta in north africa comes to mind. very high tech and well guarded and people still make it trough.

a fence on the US border is only an empty gesture on the part of the US government towards the American people; a "we are doing something" statement that will only serve to line the pockets of contractors close to the US government , halliburton and bechtel comes to mind.

being that the US is not a wellfare state, the illegal imigrant travels there to work , not as a refuge. The US must remove the motivation to imigrate, and that is the demand for unskilled, unverified labor in industries like construction and agriculture who know that they will not be penalised by the authorities for hiring illegals. As long as US employers are not penalised for hiring illegals, illegals will find a way to the states.

[LaoSexMachine]

President Fox, like any other president for anyother country, will side with his people on international issues even if that side is not the correct side.

fencing does not work. one only needs to look at other high tech fencing attempts, the fencing at melilla and ceuta in north africa comes to mind. very high tech and well guarded and people still make it trough.

a fence on the US border is only an empty gesture on the part of the US government towards the American people; a "we are doing something" statement that will only serve to line the pockets of contractors close to the US government , halliburton and bechtel comes to mind.

being that the US is not a wellfare state, the illegal imigrant travels there to work , not as a refuge. The US must remove the motivation to imigrate, and that is the demand for unskilled, unverified labor in industries like construction and agriculture who know that they will not be penalised by the authorities for hiring illegals. As long as US employers are not penalised for hiring illegals, illegals will find a way to the states.

It's not the job of the US to employ Mexican nationals. How about Mexico do something about economy where they don't come here illegaly? Remittance is big money for Mexico.

[tuercas]

It's not the job of the US to employ Mexican nationals. How about Mexico do something about economy where they don't come here illegaly? Remittance is big money for Mexico.
its not the job of the US but it still happens. Mexico would have to be at the same economic level of the US to be able to compete and that is not going to happen, we simply do not have the resources or military migth that the US has to prop our currency like the dollar . Even if we were at the level of Canada, which is a very good level by the way, people would still emigrate to the US. If you want the US government to keep wasting money on fences and other solutions that will not work , be my guest. but if you want to stop entry of people who want jobs , just dont hire them or support bussinesses that hire illegals.

[annihilation]

President Fox, like any other president for anyother country, will side with his people on international issues even if that side is not the correct side.

fencing does not work. one only needs to look at other high tech fencing attempts, the fencing at melilla and ceuta in north africa comes to mind. very high tech and well guarded and people still make it trough.

a fence on the US border is only an empty gesture on the part of the US government towards the American people; a "we are doing something" statement that will only serve to line the pockets of contractors close to the US government , halliburton and bechtel comes to mind.

being that the US is not a wellfare state, the illegal imigrant travels there to work , not as a refuge. The US must remove the motivation to imigrate, and that is the demand for unskilled, unverified labor in industries like construction and agriculture who know that they will not be penalised by the authorities for hiring illegals. As long as US employers are not penalised for hiring illegals, illegals will find a way to the states.

I have to agree there with penalising employers. But at the sametime, the fence will slow it the crossings. There are too many people crossing over and too freely. With the fence it will slow it down to those who are really determined. Which is fine, we can live with some just not as many as we are getting now.

[tuercas]

I have to agree there with penalising employers. But at the sametime, the fence will slow it the crossings. There are too many people crossing over and too freely. With the fence it will slow it down to those who are really determined. Which is fine, we can live with some just not as many as we are getting now.
the fence would not significantly lower the influx, as most of the large group crossings take place in the desert regions of arizona like the ajo desert or the mountainous regions of south california/nevada where the use of fencing or electronic sensors is impractical. the US gvt may be able to build a fence in Arizona , albeit will be difficult to actually man it but in the mountain region a fence is impractical , the fence that will be built in the south texas/tamaulipas region is only for show. in the laredo area the banks on the american side are steep and create a natural barrier in the valley region the electronic sensor network takes the place of physical barrier , this is why crossings in the southern texas portion of the rio grande are not as common anymore.

[annihilation]

the fence would not significantly lower the influx, as most of the large group crossings take place in the desert regions of arizona like the ajo desert or the mountainous regions of south california/nevada where the use of fencing or electronic sensors is impractical. the US gvt may be able to build a fence in Arizona , albeit will be difficult to actually man it but in the mountain region a fence is impractical , the fence that will be built in the south texas/tamaulipas region is only for show. in the laredo area the banks on the american side are steep and create a natural barrier in the valley region the electronic sensor network takes the place of physical barrier , this is why crossings in the southern texas portion of the rio grande are not as common anymore.

Well this 700 mile fence is just the first step to have a fence from one sea to the other. What I was talking about before, I was speaking as if we had a fence all the way across. I think guarding a fence would be no harder than it is now. Its worth a shot. We waste more money on dumber things this one atleast has a use.

[LaoSexMachine]

its not the job of the US but it still happens. Mexico would have to be at the same economic level of the US to be able to compete and that is not going to happen, we simply do not have the resources or military migth that the US has to prop our currency like the dollar . Even if we were at the level of Canada, which is a very good level by the way, people would still emigrate to the US. If you want the US government to keep wasting money on fences and other solutions that will not work , be my guest. but if you want to stop entry of people who want jobs , just dont hire them or support bussinesses that hire illegals.


Mexico has resources that can bring them to the world economy but I think corruption and politics keeps it from doing so. You don't have to have a strong military these days to be economicaly viable. If Mexico keeps nosing in the immigration debate it wouldn't be a big deal. Mexico has the resouces but not the will to make the economy viable.

[Miles.]

Mexico has resources that can bring them to the world economy but I think corruption and politics keeps it from doing so. You don't have to have a strong military these days to be economicaly viable. If Mexico keeps nosing in the immigration debate it wouldn't be a big deal. Mexico has the resouces but not the will to make the economy viable.

Exactly. Mexico DOES have the resources. They need economic and political reform bad!

[sferrin]

I highly doubt a wall would do much good.

The Chinese built one and they were invaded twice from the North (Mongols / Manchus)

The French built the Maginot Line, and the Germans went around it.

The Germans build the Sigfried Line, and that did not stop Patton.

The Berlin Wall and the East German border did not deter East Germans from defecting.

Migrants will find a 51 ft. ladder for a 50 ft. fence. They will go to the 701 st mile of a 700 mile long fence. They will dig under, fly over or go around via boat. Or bribe a US Customs / Border Patrol Agent to look the other way.

Hell, I know how you could close the border air tight and make money off it too. Set up a ten mile wide free fire zone along the southern boarder and sell licenses for $100 a pop. Or post a bounty of $20 a head. Might cost a little more but for $20,000,000 that gets rid of a million law-breakers. Of course then they'd start coming across armed which could then be classified as an invasion and audious Mexico.

[sferrin]

There are better ways.
http://www.stickdeath.com/2004auto.html
(NWS)


I like the one on Robocop too. Trunk Monkey ain't bad either :)

[Ordie]

Set up a ten mile wide free fire zone along the southern boarder.

That means the US Government must exercise eminant domain and / or confiscate private property along the border. Not to mention the land rights of several Native American Nations along the border.

If the the new and improved border does deter migration, many migrants in this country will not return to Mexico. They will eventually stay, find American spouses, get a green card and have American kids.

Life happens.

[Gibby]

Make a deal. We wont build a fence when you build an actual economy.

[annihilation]

Alot of people make comparisons with the berlin wall. How did the berlin wall fail? while the berlin wall was up, few crossed, so wouldn't it be considered a success. It only came down because of political reasons and not because it wasn't effective.

[mi35d]

If the the new and improved border does deter migration, many migrants in this country will not return to Mexico. They will eventually stay, find American spouses, get a green card and have American kids.

They will actually stay illegally - regardless of the fence, marry other Mexicans, continue to send money home without paying taxes, will arrogantly refuse to learn English nor will they attempt to assimilate but will continue to bitch if every document and government sign isn't in Spanish and English, will have half a dozen children who will be told that its their god given right to be on government programs and then will wonder why other immigrant groups regard them with disdain.

[Ordie]

Undocumented Immigrants Effect on Social Security

Undocumented immigrants compose about three percent of the total US population. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso)

The estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the Social Security system with a subsidy of about $7 billion a year. (The New York Times)

Immigrants contribute billions of dollars annually but receive no public pension in retirement, are not eligible for Medicare, and are not entitled to any other benefits. (Social Security Administration)

Most undocumented workers pay taxes, and they pay a variety of taxes. (The New York Times)

The money that undocumented immigrants paid in 2004 added up to about 10 percent of that year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it pays in pension benefits. (Social Security Administration)

The money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections. (Social Security Administration)

After the 1986 passage of the Immigration Reform and Control Act, the Social Security Administration began receiving mountains of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect or fake Social Security numbers, and placed them in the "earnings suspense file." Since then, the file has grown, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes. (Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago)

Many older workers return home to Latin America when they reach retirement age. (BusinessWeek)

The Healthcare System and Undocumented Immigrants

Immigrants are not swamping the U.S. health care system and use it far less than native-born Americans. (The American Journal of Public Health)

Immigrants accounted for 10.4 percent of the U.S. population but only 7.9 percent of total health spending and 8 percent of government health spending. (The American Journal of Public Health)

Thirty percent of immigrants use no health care at all during the course of a year. (The American Journal of Public Health)

Immigrant children spent or cost $270 a year, compared to $1,059 for native-born children. (The American Journal of Public Health)

Most immigrants have health insurance. (The American Journal of Public Health)

In reality, if more restrictions were placed on health care for immigrants, very little money would be saved, and many immigrant children would be put at grave risk. Many immigrant children already fail to get regular checkups, and as a result, more end up needing emergency care, or get no care at all. (The American Journal of Public Health)

Many immigrants actually help to subsidize health care and social security for the rest the country. (Marcelo Suárez-Orozco, co-director of immigration studies at New York University)

Immigrants pay taxes -- including Medicare payroll taxes -- and most pay health insurance premiums, but they receive only half as much care as other families. (The American Journal of Public Health)

Economic Impact of Undocumented Immigrants

Undocumented immigrants have become a new source of economic growth as giant U.S. consumer companies like banks, insurers, mortgage lenders, credit-card outfits, phone carriers, and others aggressively market to over 11 million undocumented customers. (BusinessWeek)

Undocumented immigrants add 600,000 to 700,000 new consumers to the economy every year. (Pew Research Center)

84% of undocumented immigrants are 18-to-44-year-olds, in their prime spending years, vs. 60% of legal residents. (BusinessWeek)

Allowing immigrants financial privileges boosts corporate profits because it enables them to move out of the cash economy, put their money in banks, and take out credit cards, car loans, and home mortgages. U.S. gross national product also surges because consumers with credit can spend more than those limited to cash. (BusinessWeek)

When more undocumented immigrants pay income and property taxes, they help ease the tax burden for others when it comes to paying for schools, health care, roads, and other services immigrants use. (BusinessWeek)

Letting the undocumented save and invest, could also result in a decline in crime because if immigrants are allowed to protect their money in banks, the rate of hold ups and robberies in Latino or immigrant neighborhoods drop. (Austin Police Department)

Immigrants benefit the economy more than they take away in social services. (National Academy of the Sciences)

In 2004, Arizona suffered severe labor shortages and huge quantities of lettuce went unpicked because growers lacked pickers. In 2005, the Central Valley in California had 70,000 to 80,000 labor positions that were unfilled. Legalizing workers would alleviate such labor shortages. (Benjamin Powell, economist at the Independent Institute)

Immigrants are one of the main labor sources for the rebuilding and clean-up effort in post-Katrina Louisiana and Mississippi. (NewAmericanMedia.org)

As much as half of all U.S. retail banking growth is expected to come from new immigrants over the next decade. (The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp)

Hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrant households earn enough to qualify for $95,000 mortgages. (National Association of Hispanic Real Estate Professionals)

ITIN and conventional mortgages taken out by undocumented could be worth as much as $60 billion over the next five years. (National Association of Hispanic Real Estate Professionals) Undocumented immigrants now comprise fully half of all farm laborers, up from 12% in 1990. (US Department of Labor)

Undocumented immigrants are 25% of workers in the meat and poultry industry, 24% of dishwashers, and 27% of drywall and ceiling tile installers. (The Pew Research Center)

The overall proportion of unauthorized workers in the labor force is 4.3%. Employers from many sectors of the US economy employ unauthorized immigrants – including enormous amounts of private US households. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso)

The estimated population growth rate in Mexico is declining rapidly and may soon be slower than that in the US. (United Nations)

Immigrants benefit the United States economy but their potential remains hindered by current laws. They do not deplete government resources, as is widely believed. (Benjamin Powell, economist at the Independent Institute)

Undocumented add at least $22 billion, in total, to the economy each year, and legalizing their status would increase that amount. (Benjamin Powell, economist at the Independent Institute).

National Security and the Undocumented

None of the 9/11 terrorists entered the country via the US/Mexico border. In fact, the US is most vulnerable at its ports of entry, including ship ports, airports, and land ports. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

It is not easy to immigrate to the US legally as it often takes decades before an individual can obtain many kinds of legal immigrant visas. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

Working with Mexico is central to the future of controlling the US border. Through cooperation with Mexico, the US will be able to isolate criminals, publicize rules, and identify forms of Mexican identification. (Peter Laufer, former NBC new correspondent).

Enhanced border enforcement only increases the number of deaths of men, women, and children at the border annually. Areas with heavy border security see up to 100 additional deaths a year. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

While heavy border does not stop the volume of unauthorized border crossing, it does increase the costs and risks of coming to the US, including death, injury, and the use of smugglers. It also reduces the number of back and forth trips, forcing undocumented immigrants to stay longer. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

[Remington Rand]

Yeah whatever. As long as it's on our side of the border we can build an alligator-filled flaming trench if we want.

What's with these turd world tin pot dictators these days?

This is so true. As long as it is within US territory, we dont need anyones permission. My only complaint is that it is too short. Make a wall along the whole border....make two walls...whatever. I'd rather have my tax money going to a wall than to some other things. Defense and security are well worth it. Send me my share of the bill

RR

[Ordie]

This is so true. As long as it is within US territory, we dont need anyones permission.

Yes you do.
Private property owners. The Supreme Court granted the right for local / state and federal governments to exercise Eminant Domain.

Not a popular move with voters.

[sferrin]

Yes you do.
Private property owners. The Supreme Court granted the right for local / state and federal governments to exercise Eminant Domain.

Not a popular move with voters.

If you want to know how difficult that is just watch how fast home owners get displaced when the government wants to put in a new road or the local "government" decides that a big new Wal-Mart will line their pockets better than a neighborhood of older houses. Happens all the time and not a f--king thing can be done about it. You end up with people owing money on houses they don't even live in anymore because the goverment gave them "the going rate" *wink* *wink*. I guess they meant the going rate for a good shafting not the going rate for a house. (rant off)

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

i think everyone missed the wording...never does it say it will stop illegal immigration, it only said it will stem it. i think it will slow the mass waves down substantially if the fence were to be also monitored (in other words if its just a large fence in the desert with no one around, a monkey could figure out a way to get over). more importantly it shows mexican and central american illegals that this is the law of the land, the system is changing, you cant just walk in any more.

why does everyone get so angry and heated about the subject, its as if hispanics think americans (which by the way is comprised largely of hispanics) are like "stay out w*tbacks" cause they think we are all racist. it honestly could have less to do with race than culture. the people are of a different culture with different values speaking a different language (i.e. not english which now is spoken by the vast majority of americans as their primary language) who believe it or not look down on assimilating into american society. assimilation does not mean inter-marriage or wearing a cowboy hate and covering yourself head to toe in an American flag every day...it simply means accepting the laws (like legal migration) of your adopted land, respecting its values and morals and defending its sovereignty. the system we have now will not work, im from texas and i can tell you that if you gave me an actual comparison of biggotry or racism it would be most prevalent in hispanic enclaves generally by 2nd generation children of illegals (usually not 1st gen) and considering the proximity and the fact that i lived in houston for a while more than qualifies me to speak of this. there are just certain places where i as a white person cannot go b/c the people so hate me without justification, why you ask? b/c they are under the radar not recognized in a legal form by the US and b/c of this they live a lifestyle that is very clannish.

so it would be in the best interest of immigrants to do things legally (yes the system needs reform but it still exists now to do things the right way) so that they don't live under the radar and that they can participate in the community...vote and pay taxes etc...

we dont need to all hold hands and dance around and have every block of a neighborhood be 1/4 white, 1/4 black, 1/4 hispanic and 1/4 asian, thats not how assimilation works, its a process of people melting into the society at large.

so the fence will show immigrants that there is active reform but that they are not unwelcome but they are unwelcome from just walking over. sorry for the rant.

[Remington Rand]

Yes you do.
Private property owners. The Supreme Court granted the right for local / state and federal governments to exercise Eminant Domain.

Not a popular move with voters.

Point taken, but having been to border areas many times in South Texas, I would be willing to bet the landowners would cheer. I am not a lawyer, but I'd think that the US has the right to protect the border from criminals and foreign invasion. Not calling the people walking across invaders, but they are criminals. I think the government has the right to build a fence and patrol it, even if it is on private land.

[Ordie]

Point taken, but having been to border areas many times in South Texas, I would be willing to bet the landowners would cheer. I am not a lawyer, but I'd think that the US has the right to protect the border from criminals and foreign invasion. Not calling the people walking across invaders, but they are criminals. I think the government has the right to build a fence and patrol it, even if it is on private land.

I appreciate your opinion. Even though were oppposite sides of the fence (no pun intended).

I think the government has easement rights, very much in the same manner as the sidewalk in front of your house. I do not know what is the limit is for international boundaries.

Other things to consider are various other juristictions. This includes the State of Texas which is granted unique land rights since the days it was independent. California, Arizona, New Mexico and various Native American Nations. The BLM, NPS, DOD, local counties, municipalities, and the US Fish and Game come into play too.

As always the devils are in the details.

[Mastermind]

Well, if everything goes as it usually does in American politics, Mexico has absolutely nothing to wrorry about. The congress passed a bill to build a fence...but not to fully fund it...it will take ten to fifteen years to get it done and, besides, as soon as the election is over the pols are all nice and comfy for another stint...they will forget all about the fence....until next election time, at least This is all smoke and mirrors and congress has no intention of ever letting a fence project be properly emplimented. It is pure appeasememnt to the dolts called voters.MM

[Remington Rand]

I appreciate your opinion. Even though were oppposite sides of the fence (no pun intended).

I think the government has easement rights, very much in the same manner as the sidewalk in front of your house. I do not know what is the limit is for international boundaries.

Other things to consider are various other juristictions. This includes the State of Texas which is granted unique land rights since the days it was independent. California, Arizona, New Mexico and various Native American Nations. The BLM, NPS, DOD, local counties, municipalities, and the US Fish and Game come into play too.

As always the devils are in the details.
I agree with the idea of a fence that is agressively patrolled. I am not advocating violence, just a mentality that we need to catch and depart every last one that we can. Nothing against Mexicans...if anyone from any country is here legally, I say welcome. You are right, the devil is in the details. But, supposedly there already is a fence so there should be laws dealing with it's maintainance and patrol. I have seen it though, and it is little more than a 3 strand barbed wire fence. We are not on opposite sides of the fence. We are both on this side. Just disagreeing over how big the fence should be.

[Remington Rand]

Undocumented Immigrants Effect on Social Security


Undocumented immigrants compose about three percent of the total US population. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso)

The estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the Social Security system with a subsidy of about $7 billion a year. (The New York Times)

Immigrants contribute billions of dollars annually but receive no public pension in retirement, are not eligible for Medicare, and are not entitled to any other benefits. (Social Security Administration)

Most undocumented workers pay taxes, and they pay a variety of taxes. (The New York Times)

The money that undocumented immigrants paid in 2004 added up to about 10 percent of that year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it pays in pension benefits. (Social Security Administration)

The money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections. (Social Security Administration)

After the 1986 passage of the Immigration Reform and Control Act, the Social Security Administration began receiving mountains of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect or fake Social Security numbers, and placed them in the "earnings suspense file." Since then, the file has grown, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes. (Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago)

Many older workers return home to Latin America when they reach retirement age. (BusinessWeek)
The Healthcare System and Undocumented Immigrants


Immigrants are not swamping the U.S. health care system and use it far less than native-born Americans. (The American Journal of Public Health)

Immigrants accounted for 10.4 percent of the U.S. population but only 7.9 percent of total health spending and 8 percent of government health spending. (The American Journal of Public Health)

Thirty percent of immigrants use no health care at all during the course of a year. (The American Journal of Public Health)

Immigrant children spent or cost $270 a year, compared to $1,059 for native-born children. (The American Journal of Public Health)

Most immigrants have health insurance. (The American Journal of Public Health)

In reality, if more restrictions were placed on health care for immigrants, very little money would be saved, and many immigrant children would be put at grave risk. Many immigrant children already fail to get regular checkups, and as a result, more end up needing emergency care, or get no care at all. (The American Journal of Public Health)

Many immigrants actually help to subsidize health care and social security for the rest the country. (Marcelo Suárez-Orozco, co-director of immigration studies at New York University)

Immigrants pay taxes -- including Medicare payroll taxes -- and most pay health insurance premiums, but they receive only half as much care as other families. (The American Journal of Public Health)
Economic Impact of Undocumented Immigrants


Undocumented immigrants have become a new source of economic growth as giant U.S. consumer companies like banks, insurers, mortgage lenders, credit-card outfits, phone carriers, and others aggressively market to over 11 million undocumented customers. (BusinessWeek)

Undocumented immigrants add 600,000 to 700,000 new consumers to the economy every year. (Pew Research Center)

84% of undocumented immigrants are 18-to-44-year-olds, in their prime spending years, vs. 60% of legal residents. (BusinessWeek)

Allowing immigrants financial privileges boosts corporate profits because it enables them to move out of the cash economy, put their money in banks, and take out credit cards, car loans, and home mortgages. U.S. gross national product also surges because consumers with credit can spend more than those limited to cash. (BusinessWeek)

When more undocumented immigrants pay income and property taxes, they help ease the tax burden for others when it comes to paying for schools, health care, roads, and other services immigrants use. (BusinessWeek)

Letting the undocumented save and invest, could also result in a decline in crime because if immigrants are allowed to protect their money in banks, the rate of hold ups and robberies in Latino or immigrant neighborhoods drop. (Austin Police Department)

Immigrants benefit the economy more than they take away in social services. (National Academy of the Sciences)

In 2004, Arizona suffered severe labor shortages and huge quantities of lettuce went unpicked because growers lacked pickers. In 2005, the Central Valley in California had 70,000 to 80,000 labor positions that were unfilled. Legalizing workers would alleviate such labor shortages. (Benjamin Powell, economist at the Independent Institute)

Immigrants are one of the main labor sources for the rebuilding and clean-up effort in post-Katrina Louisiana and Mississippi. (NewAmericanMedia.org)

As much as half of all U.S. retail banking growth is expected to come from new immigrants over the next decade. (The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp)

Hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrant households earn enough to qualify for $95,000 mortgages. (National Association of Hispanic Real Estate Professionals)

ITIN and conventional mortgages taken out by undocumented could be worth as much as $60 billion over the next five years. (National Association of Hispanic Real Estate Professionals) Undocumented immigrants now comprise fully half of all farm laborers, up from 12% in 1990. (US Department of Labor)

Undocumented immigrants are 25% of workers in the meat and poultry industry, 24% of dishwashers, and 27% of drywall and ceiling tile installers. (The Pew Research Center)

The overall proportion of unauthorized workers in the labor force is 4.3%. Employers from many sectors of the US economy employ unauthorized immigrants – including enormous amounts of private US households. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso)

The estimated population growth rate in Mexico is declining rapidly and may soon be slower than that in the US. (United Nations)

Immigrants benefit the United States economy but their potential remains hindered by current laws. They do not deplete government resources, as is widely believed. (Benjamin Powell, economist at the Independent Institute)

Undocumented add at least $22 billion, in total, to the economy each year, and legalizing their status would increase that amount. (Benjamin Powell, economist at the Independent Institute).
National Security and the Undocumented


None of the 9/11 terrorists entered the country via the US/Mexico border. In fact, the US is most vulnerable at its ports of entry, including ship ports, airports, and land ports. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

It is not easy to immigrate to the US legally as it often takes decades before an individual can obtain many kinds of legal immigrant visas. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

Working with Mexico is central to the future of controlling the US border. Through cooperation with Mexico, the US will be able to isolate criminals, publicize rules, and identify forms of Mexican identification. (Peter Laufer, former NBC new correspondent).

Enhanced border enforcement only increases the number of deaths of men, women, and children at the border annually. Areas with heavy border security see up to 100 additional deaths a year. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

While heavy border does not stop the volume of unauthorized border crossing, it does increase the costs and risks of coming to the US, including death, injury, and the use of smugglers. It also reduces the number of back and forth trips, forcing undocumented immigrants to stay longer. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso).

You've obviously done a lot of research, so I dont want to skip over this one. What are you advocating? Amnesty and then patrolling the border or open borders completely? If so, do we abolish the idea of US citizenship since everyone come in or are you advocating a guest worker program. Do these folks need to pay taxes when they get here? I am not trying to be rude, it is just that these facts dont clearly state your point. Thanks. RR

[Ordie]

I support the President's proposal.

I think its a good compromise.

I worked along side many undocumented migrants in the restaurant business for 12 years during the 1980's. When the Simpson - Mazzoli Act passed by President Reagan in 1986, many of my co-workers applied for and were granted legal status. The first act that many undertook was to open a bank account. Then they went on to buy cars, open a line of credit, bought a house and open businesses. Many of my former co-workers are now active voting US Citizens. Many of thier children are as American in every other sense of the word. They enjoy playing baseball, video games, listening rock and roll and speaking English almost all of the time. A few of them joined the Marines and are in Iraq and Afghanistan today. They joined as a means to give back what this country had given thier parents.

I believe, most migrants do not want to leave thier homes. However the socio-economic conditions forces them to go North. The ideal situation for many is to work seasonally and return to thier homes by Christmas. The money saved goes into thier local communities and tend to thier property. They can return to the United States every year without jumping fences, legally and in the open. The stronger the bonds (Family, property, community) in Mexico the less likely for this person to permanently stay in the United States.

I think a point system should be in place to reward those who do return to Mexico. The more points scored, the more likely this person be rewarded to return to the United States the following year. They should be paid the prevailing wage, pay taxes, and all the stuff that everyone else pays for. They should be free to obtain driver's licence, pay registration, smog, and buy insurance.

If they want to reside permanently in the Uniited States, thier employment record and points accumilated should be considered in the process.

For the record: I was born in East L.A.

[Creeper]

Where does Ordie get his statisics? Quoted sources?

[Laworkerbee]

For the record: I was born in East L.A.

You and Cheech Marin you poor bastards :)

[ren0312]

the fence would not significantly lower the influx, as most of the large group crossings take place in the desert regions of arizona like the ajo desert or the mountainous regions of south california/nevada where the use of fencing or electronic sensors is impractical. the US gvt may be able to build a fence in Arizona , albeit will be difficult to actually man it but in the mountain region a fence is impractical , the fence that will be built in the south texas/tamaulipas region is only for show. in the laredo area the banks on the american side are steep and create a natural barrier in the valley region the electronic sensor network takes the place of physical barrier , this is why crossings in the southern texas portion of the rio grande are not as common anymore.

The point is that it will significantly lower the number of border crossings, for example, the Berlin Wall did not completely stop the border crossings, but it still managed to reduce the flow to a very low level, and steep terrain really is not an impediment to building a wall, since the Great Wall of China was built on terrain that is as steep, if not steeper than that which can be found on the US-Mexico border, with nothing more than medieval techonology, for example in Badaling northwest of Peking, and Mutianyu.

[americanbychoice]

I am also for a measure of amnesty when it comes to Illegal workers in the States... but we have to be fair to ALL people, and not just those of Hispanic/Latin heritage.

There are people from many many many countries around the world who have family & historic ties to the United States... China and the Phillipines, just as two examples. It can also be VERY difficult for Canadians who don't have employer support in the US to legally immigrate in a timely fashion. The immigration issue is not simply a Mexican issue.

And when it comes to legal residency, i.e. Green Cards, and all the benefits of being 100% legal in the current system, then Mexican immigrants should wait just like everyone else who had to go through the torture of following the legal process through the INS.

Having immigrated myself via the legal process, I think it's wholely and entirely unfair if Mexican immigrants who entered the country illegally get to jump the line because of their illegal status. What about Chinese? What about Filipinos, whose INS case backlog can oftentimes be over a decade in processing time? What about everyone else who wants to come to this country?

A wall is a blunt and crude way of stemming the flow of migrant workers... but the current non-system of reward for illegal immigration & punishment of us legal immigrants is rather stupid.

[Jobu]

Where does Ordie get his statisics? Quoted sources?

http://www.lulac.org/advocacy/issues/immigration/truth.html
Mexican lobbyists.

[ed316]

http://www.lulac.org/advocacy/issues/immigration/truth.html
Mexican lobbyists.


Talk about pro-illegal immigration people.

[alvarezinfantry]

Hey you guys are the reason I want to s--t out of my mouth sometimes. Have you served before?? or are you all bigot's. I serve and do so proudly, I'm Mexican and about 50% of my platoon is Latino.
I agree we need to secure the border. But I also Agree you all are a bunch of clowns.

[ed316]

Hey you guys are the reason I want to s--t out of my mouth sometimes. Have you served before?? or are you all bigot's. I serve and do so proudly, I'm Mexican and about 50% of my platoon is Latino.
I agree we need to secure the border. But I also Agree you all are a bunch of clowns.


:roll: That's a winning argument. Why the the race card? BTW I served too but that's irrelevant to the debate.

[alvarezinfantry]

because its there and its true. Racism is for real and the notion that you can say lets build a alligator trench and junk like that is ludicrous. I am a Proud US INFANTRY soldier, I can fight and die along side Americans but I'm not allowed to vote. America need to get it straight. America needs Immigrant workers. and America needs to see the facts. Latinos are a vital part of the US Armed forces and a vital part of the US labor force.

[c62]

because its there and its true. Racism is for real and the notion that you can say lets build a alligator trench and junk like that is ludicrous. I am a Proud US INFANTRY soldier, I can fight and die along side Americans but I'm not allowed to vote. America need to get it straight. America needs Immigrant workers. and America needs to see the facts. Latinos are a vital part of the US Armed forces and a vital part of the US labor force.
And Asian-Americans aren't? How about European-Americans? African-Americans? Or [Insert Group Here]-Americans? Nobody is against LEGAL immigration it's the "IL" that comes before it that is chapping people's asses.

It is disrepectful of our laws and traditions to come here illegally(and that goes for any group). If anyone comes here legally they should, and will, be welcomed(and again that goes for any group).

[ed316]

because its there and its true. Racism is for real and the notion that you can say lets build a alligator trench and junk like that is ludicrous. I am a Proud US INFANTRY soldier, I can fight and die along side Americans but I'm not allowed to vote. America need to get it straight. America needs Immigrant workers. and America needs to see the facts. Latinos are a vital part of the US Armed forces and a vital part of the US labor force.

Racism and stemming the tide of ILLEGALS is not the same. American needs legal immigrants not illegals. Latinos are not the only one vital to the military EVERY one who servs and volunteer is vital. This has nothing to do with Latino pride and has everything to do about legal and illegal immigration. Mexico wants America to be lax with our souther borders? How about Mexico get's laz with thier southern borders?

Well, if you been in the army that long and have not gotten your citizenship yet then it's your fault not America's.

[CheekyQuim]

At Columbia, Students Attack Minuteman Founder

By ELIANA JOHNSON - Staff Reporter of the Sun
October 5, 2006


Students stormed the stage at Columbia University's Roone auditorium yesterday, knocking over chairs and tables and attacking Jim Gilchrist, the founder of the Minutemen, a group that patrols the border between America and Mexico.

Mr. Gilchrist and Marvin Stewart, another member of his group, were in the process of giving a speech at the invitation of the Columbia College Republicans. They were escorted off the stage unharmed and exited the auditorium by a back door.

Having wreaked havoc onstage, the students unrolled a banner that read, in both Arabic and English, "No one is ever illegal." As security guards closed the curtains and began escorting people from the auditorium, the students jumped from the stage, pumping their fists, chanting victoriously, "Si se pudo, si se pudo," Spanish for "Yes we could!"

The Minuteman Project, an organization of volunteers founded in 2004 by Mr. Gilchrist, aims to keep illegal immigrants out of America by alerting law enforcement officials when they attempt to cross the border. The group uses fiery language and unorthodox tactics to advance its platform. "Future generations will inherit a tangle of rancorous, unassimilated, squabbling cultures with no common bond to hold them together, and a certain guarantee of the death of this nation as a harmonious ‘melting pot,'" the group's Web site warns.

The pandemonium that ensued as the evening's keynote speaker took the stage was merely the climax of protest that brewed all week. A number of campus groups, including the Chicano caucus, the African-American student organization, and the International Socialist organization, began planning their protests early this week when they heard that the Minutemen would be arriving on campus.

The student protesters, who attended the event clad in white as a sign of dissent, booed and shouted the speakers down throughout. They interrupted Mr. Stewart, who is African-American, when he referred to the Declaration of Independence's self-evident truth that "All men are created equal," calling him a racist, a sellout, and a black white supremacist.

A student's demand that Mr. Stewart speak in Spanish elicited thundering applause and brought the protesters to their feet. The protesters remained standing, turned their backs on Mr. Stewart for the remainder of his remarks, and drowned him out by chanting, "Wrap it up, wrap it up!" Mr. Stewart appeared unfazed by their behavior. He simply smiled and bellowed, "No wonder you don't know what you're talking about."

"These are racist individuals heading a project that terrorizes immigrants on the U.S.-Mexican border," Ryan Fukumori, a Columbia junior who took part in the protest, told The New York Sun. "They have no right to be able to speak here."

The student protesters "rush to vindicate themselves with monikers like ‘liberal' and ‘open-minded,' but their actions, their attempt to condemn the Minutemen without even hearing what they have to say, speak otherwise," the president of the Columbia College Republicans, Chris Kulawik, said. On campus, the Republicans' flyers advertising the event were defaced and torn down.

The College Republicans expressed their concern about the lack of free speech for opposing viewpoints on the Columbia campus in the wake of the evening's events. "We've often feared that there's not freedom of speech at Columbia for more right-wing views — and that was proven tonight," the executive director of the Columbia College Republicans, Lauren Steinberg, said.

The Minutemen's arrival at Columbia drew protesters from around the city as well. An hour before Messrs. Stewart and Mr. Gilchrist took the stage, rowdy protests began outside the auditorium on Broadway, where activists chanted, "Hey, hey, ho, ho, the Minutemen have got to go!"

[AOCBravo2004]

because its there and its true. Racism is for real and the notion that you can say lets build a alligator trench and junk like that is ludicrous. I am a Proud US INFANTRY soldier, I can fight and die along side Americans but I'm not allowed to vote. America need to get it straight. America needs Immigrant workers. and America needs to see the facts. Latinos are a vital part of the US Armed forces and a vital part of the US labor force.

You need to learn to distinguish the difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigrants.

[alvarezinfantry]

I challenge all of you to look in to your hearts and place yourselves selves in the shoes of a person that can barely feed their family. A person that has to leave behind their families and home behind. To end up in a place known as the land of the free!! and immediately upon arrival you are Hated and an instant criminal. Al because you are trying to make it better for you're children, you're spouse. Whatever the case.

You can only get a crappy job, and be paid under the minimum wage. Mowing lawns, Picking vegetables, jobs of that nature. Sometimes the boss wants to f--k everyone and skip a pay day, but you cant complain. You can barely make it so you are forced to live piled up in a trailer full of others just like you, just so you can pay the bills and send the rest back to your children or perhaps even a relative that is ill and the health care is too expensive.

can we or can we not agree that this is f--ked up!! And Americans want to stay on welfare and not find a job because its a free check. Illegal aliens cannot claim any kind of government aid, because they will get caught and be deported. They make less than the poverty level and cant file for a tax refund because they will get caught. So the US Treasury gets all the unclaimed tax returns, and pockets them . Come On people!!


How can you say illegals are bad and how can you say or even allow ranchers to shoot them while they come across!!
Lets secure the border!! I'm down for that.
But lets make the INS system a real and legitimate system that works, so that people will want to come here legally. US citizenship is damn near impossible I've been trying for 18 years, and I'm still not a US Citizen been in the US INFANTRY for nearly 5. Give me a break.

I got one for you. Instead of fighting in places that make no sense. Why don't we topple the Corrupt illegitimate Mexican government and found a real legit Democracy there. This make sense. and would benefit both countries

[alvarezinfantry]

referring to cheekyQuim . look around Google the name jim Gilcrest, and believe it or not about 20 years a go he was the founder of something called Klan Boarder watch. There are pictures and articles of this. He is a racist and there is plenty of proof out there. look it up all of you.

[AOCBravo2004]

I got one for you. Instead of fighting in places that make no sense. Why don't we topple the Corrupt illegitimate Mexican government and found a real legit Democracy there. This make sense. and would benefit both countries

Here is a better idea, why don't the ILLEGALS stay in Mexico and topple the "corrupt illegitimate Mexican government" and establish a better government that helps them, and doesn't drive them to risk their lives crossing the border.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

because its there and its true. Racism is for real and the notion that you can say lets build a alligator trench and junk like that is ludicrous. I am a Proud US INFANTRY soldier, I can fight and die along side Americans but I'm not allowed to vote. America need to get it straight. America needs Immigrant workers. and America needs to see the facts. Latinos are a vital part of the US Armed forces and a vital part of the US labor force.

agreed racism is real and its not a black and white issue and it is a problem across the boards between all races. i agree some people said some ridiculous things here like landmines or alligators just dumb sh*t cause its a heated subject. many races and ethnicities have, are and always haved served in the armed forces. do we need immigrant workers...yes, if you think otherwise you're an idiot. do we need to stem the flow for the sake of the immigrants and american citizens, why of course.

go back a couple posts and read the proposal ordie wrote (sorry to name drop) about the current president's plan. it doesn't not stop immigration, why does everyone think that immigration will be stopped? it won't and it can't however the law of the land stands, there is the right way and the wrong way. currently the wrong way is not working properly, however, if every time the issue is addressed someone can drop the race card and say racist bigots are the ones pushing the issue they're wrong and it makes actual debates and proposals for betterment impossible. there are many people in the hispanic and black communities that can also be adversely affected by illegal immigration so it shouldn't be a "racial" issue other than the fact that the people involved can all be classified by their race (i.e. i am white and someone else here might be black).

should we grant amnesty...no, can we round everyone up and kick them out...no. however until these people are able to not live under the radar and in the shadows they will continue to live a lifestyle which is not as good as it can be if the system were to change and allow people to be granted citizenship through their work. once the people are able to attain legal status at which time they pay their taxes and take advantage of benefits and are able to improve the community.

there are plenty of deserving people that can contribute to america from ALL OVER the world, not just mexico and latin america. we should not put in place a system where we basically turn our backs and allow people from south of the country to freely jump ahead in the line. reform must be comprehensive, the fence is a good sign to say that the old system is out however there are ways of being able to come over. im not blind i know a fence will not stop illegal immigration but it will stem the tide on it. i wont discuss positives and negatives of the issue other than the fact the act of crossing the border affects the sovereignty of this nation to decide its own course b/c illegal immigrants have basically stepped right over the law.

also go look at the immigration laws of 1921 and 1924 where congress limited the number of my people who could come over...are the hispanics of today somehow better than these people, perhaps are they more deserving? it cannot be argued either way, however, this is a great nation and many of us have been blessed to have been born here in the US. immigrants who want to come here should go through the same processes all legal immigrants go through...is it hard yes, but if there is one thing any of us have learned its that sometimes doing things the hard way is the best and we are able to weed out those who are less deserving or less appreciative of the change in lifestyle they will achieve through citizenship and to a lesser extent legal status. the US just wants to have names on the books to know what immigrants are doing and to make sure they are here to work and that they pay their taxes like everyone else. until we are able to grant status to them then there is a problem.

it is also to absoooooolutely no advantage for their to be cultural enclaves where people attempt to merely retain the exact lifestyle of their homeland. this only stands to draw us apart as americans and will in my opinion lead to a severe downfall in this country when cultural tension boils over. if you are to say there is a negative aspect it would not be racism as much as a cultural clash that is expediated by a shared common foreign language (spanish) which stands to draw us all apart.

[pistol]

I would be a lot happier with Mexico right now if they would just leave Dog the Bounty Hunter alone.

[alvarezinfantry]

Dog is the Sh--t I agree with you!! there.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

I got one for you. Instead of fighting in places that make no sense. Why don't we topple the Corrupt illegitimate Mexican government and found a real legit Democracy there. This make sense. and would benefit both countries

agreed. yo tell me when the invasion goes down its about time that the inequity in mexico ends (i.e. the absolute lack of a middle class and great divides in social status for mexican nationals). im not advocating anything "che" style but we could storm mexico city! just gimme the word...

[AOCBravo2004]

I would be a lot happier with Mexico right now if they would just leave Dog the Bounty Hunter alone.

Dog broke the law, yeah it's great he got that POS back to the states, but he knew the risks of doing what he did, and now he is going to have to face the consequences.

[alvarezinfantry]

[quote=I'mOnlyHalfPolish;1979119]agreed racism is real and its not a black and white issue and it is a problem across the boards between all races. i agree some people said some ridiculous things here like landmines or alligators just dumb sh*t cause its a heated subject. many races and ethnicities have, are and always haved served in the armed forces. do we need immigrant workers...yes, if you think otherwise you're an idiot. do we need to stem the flow for the sake of the immigrants and american citizens, why of course.

go back a couple posts and read the proposal ordie wrote (sorry to name drop) about the current president's plan. it doesn't not stop immigration, why does everyone think that immigration will be stopped? it won't and it can't however the law of the land stands, there is the right way and the wrong way. currently the wrong way is not working properly, however, if every time the issue is addressed someone can drop the race card and say racist bigots are the ones pushing the issue they're wrong and it makes actual debates and proposals for betterment impossible. there are many people in the hispanic and black communities that can also be adversely affected by illegal immigration so it shouldn't be a "racial" issue other than the fact that the people involved can all be classified by their race (i.e. i am white and someone else here might be black).

should we grant amnesty...no, can we round everyone up and kick them out...no. however until these people are able to not live under the radar and in the shadows they will continue to live a lifestyle which is not as good as it can be if the system were to change and allow people to be granted citizenship through their work. once the people are able to attain legal status at which time they pay their taxes and take advantage of benefits and are able to improve the community.

there are plenty of deserving people that can contribute to america from ALL OVER the world, not just mexico and latin america. we should not put in place a system where we basically turn our backs and allow people from south of the country to freely jump ahead in the line. reform must be comprehensive, the fence is a good sign to say that the old system is out however there are ways of being able to come over. im not blind i know a fence will not stop illegal immigration but it will stem the tide on it. i wont discuss positives and negatives of the issue other than the fact the act of crossing the border affects the sovereignty of this nation to decide its own course b/c illegal immigrants have basically stepped right over the law.

also go look at the immigration laws of 1921 and 1924 where congress limited the number of my people who could come over...are the Hispanics of today somehow better than these people, The reason illegals from other countries don't just flock into the US is geographical They are not connected id not you bet you Buddy if the US was surrounded bu countries illegal immigration would be nuts. This does not mean Latinos are better or more deserving."geography"

[ed316]

Overthrowing the legitimate democratically elected Mexican government will not solve anything. They are still bitching about Texas and southwest.

Illegals should not have priority over legals who wait YEARS to come to America.

I don't know who is doing your citizenship paperwork but some of my guys got their within six months and tey were legal immigrants to America. One was Vietnamese the other two were Filipinos.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

? alvarez im confused by that last post...

[alvarezinfantry]

Dog will be fine he is not gonna be locked up!! i promise the croocked Mexican cops just want to fine him so they can ad a deck in the back yard or something. Believe me man Its nothing that serious

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

Overthrowing the legitimate democratically elected Mexican government will not solve anything. They are still bitching about Texas and southwest.

Illegals should not have priority over legals who wait YEARS to come to America.

I don't know who is doing your citizenship paperwork but some of my guys got their within six months and tey were legal immigrants to America. One was Vietnamese the other two were Filipinos.

true...damn i just wanted to lead a coup thats all...guess ill have to scratch that off of my list of things to do before i die...

[ed316]

true...damn i just wanted to lead a coup thats all...guess ill have to scratch that off of my list of things to do before i die...

There's a thread for that ;)

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

[quote=I'mOnlyHalfPolish;1979119]...are the Hispanics of today somehow better than these people, The reason illegals from other countries don't just flock into the US is geographical They are not connected id not you bet you Buddy if the US was surrounded bu countries illegal immigration would be nuts. This does not mean Latinos are better or more deserving."geography"

exactly its mere geography but that should not be a deciding factor in who gets granted American citizenship.

[Jobu]

Let me get this straight, you just asked why people think illegal aliens are bad? Does illegal mean nothing to you?

[alvarezinfantry]

Overthrowing the legitimate democratically elected Mexican government will not solve anything. They are still bitching about Texas and southwest.

Illegals should not have priority over legals who wait YEARS to come to America.

I don't know who is doing your citizenship paperwork but some of my guys got their within six months and tey were legal immigrants to America. One was Vietnamese the other two were Filipinos.


the Immigration laws change because of the country of origin clause. Vietnamese and filipinos get legalised the fastest because of the military conflicts in the past, so do people from Guam. and other US defended territories.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

the Immigration laws change because of the country of origin clause. Vietnamese and filipinos get legalised the fastest because of the military conflicts in the past, so do people from Guam. and other US defended territories.

guamese (sp?) and puerto ricans are US citizens

[ed316]

the Immigration laws change because of the country of origin clause. Vietnamese and filipinos get legalised the fastest because of the military conflicts in the past, so do people from Guam. and other US defended territories.

You have a greencard and you been in the miliatry for awhile and you don't get priority? Did you file for citizenship due to military service or just civilian. Bush signed a lwa not long ago where US military personel have priority and make it easier to get.

People who are born on Guam are US citizens. Same as PR and US Virgin Islands.

[alvarezinfantry]

Let me get this straight, you just asked why people think illegal aliens are bad? Does illegal mean nothing to you?


the laws need to change the system is ineffective. When alcohol was illegal they found that prohibition was not working so they changed the law, so that it would make sense. the INS ways need to be rethought and made right. The system is obsolete and it is more than obvious that it does not work. can we agree on that?

[alvarezinfantry]

You have a greencard and you been in the miliatry for awhile and you don't get priority? Did you file for citizenship due to military service or just civilian. Bush signed a lwa not long ago where US military personel have priority and make it easier to get.

People who are born on Guam are US citizens. Same as PR and US Virgin Islands.


I have filed but i still have to wait the last thing i got from Ins said that it could still linger until Jan 2008. But its done.

[Jobu]

the laws need to change the system is ineffective. When alcohol was illegal they found that prohibition was not working so they changed the law, so that it would make sense. the INS ways need to be rethought and made right. The system is obsolete and it is more than obvious that it does not work. can we agree on that?


100% agree.

However, that's not an excuse for breaking our laws as they currently exist. Respect must be given if you want it returned. If the first thing you do is break our laws, don't expect to welcomed with open arms.

[Remington Rand]

I'm all for making everyone wait in line, but if you have served in the US military you should be fast tracked. Now that pretty much everyone who volunteers will face combat, you have to really love America to be in the military. Proof enough for me. If a soldier serves, he or she should be a citizen.

RR

[AOCBravo2004]

the laws need to change the system is ineffective. When alcohol was illegal they found that prohibition was not working so they changed the law, so that it would make sense. the INS ways need to be rethought and made right. The system is obsolete and it is more than obvious that it does not work. can we agree on that?

Comparing Prohibition to Illegal Immigration??? WTF.

[Mastermind]

Open the flood gates....we must wash all this grand Americanism away....multicultural...that's the future...all the poor and pitiful...let them in.... they almost certainly have all the answers...look how well they have managed their coutries back home...yes...let them all in....hahhahhahaha....They are such hard workers.....and, afterall, they only do the work the regal Americanos won't do.

And one day...we woke up and our country was gone. MM

[martinexsquaddie]

just invade mexico
cheap medics
vacation homes
its got a beach and they serve booze plus no muslims got to be a winner
:)

[alvarezinfantry]

Comparing Prohibition to Illegal Immigration??? WTF.



Not comparing to Prohibition simply comparing to something that did not function. The Ins law and legalisation system simply fails to function the way it needs to. Like prohibition it was a system of law that did not function. so is the current INS system. I needs to evolve into something that does work.

[alvarezinfantry]

Open the flood gates....we must wash all this grand Americanism away....multicultural...that's the future...all the poor and pitiful...let them in.... they almost certainly have all the answers...look how well they have managed their coutries back home...yes...let them all in....hahhahhahaha....They are such hard workers.....and, afterall, they only do the work the regal Americanos won't do.

And one day...we woke up and our country was gone. MM


1. take some Spanish lessons!! you are jacking it up. I got the english down perfect.

2. define Americanism? do you even know what that is? Not to be confused with ignorism or red-neckism, and please don't tell me that There is a definite American culture, because there is not.

3. true Americanism was killed a long time ago remember! Most of the only true and real Americans were killed along with the only true and American culture. Go to a reservation speak to a real American Indian and see for yourself what its like to be purely and truly 100% American.
because tho you may have been born here. and be "American " so you think . You really are not. Your way back family tree had to immigrated here some time ago.

[alvarezinfantry]

I'm all for making everyone wait in line, but if you have served in the US military you should be fast tracked. Now that pretty much everyone who volunteers will face combat, you have to really love America to be in the military. Proof enough for me. If a soldier serves, he or she should be a citizen.

RR


If you are a Mexican male or any male from any country other than the US age 18 to 30 and you want to become a US citizen you must do this.

1.Enlist in the US armed forces for a mandatory enlistment of 3 years minimum.

2. the individual must successfully pass basic training and can only join the MOS of infantrymen.

3. pas a language and American history exam, and be honorably discharged from service or chose to reenlist.

After accomplishing these tasks the individual is awarded US Citizenship.
Then and only then can the individual apply for automatic citizenship for his spouse and children only. and be given the option to enrol his immediate relatives in the INS naturalization process, but they will have to go through the regular way.

Does this sound like a plan?

[alvarezinfantry]

If you are a Mexican male or any male from any country other than the US age 18 to 30 and you want to become a US citizen you must do this.

1.Enlist in the US armed forces for a mandatory enlistment of 3 years minimum.

2. the individual must successfully pass basic training and can only join the MOS of infantrymen.

3. pas a language and American history exam, and be honorably discharged from service or chose to reenlist.

After accomplishing these tasks the individual is awarded US Citizenship.
Then and only then can the individual apply for automatic citizenship for his spouse and children only. and be given the option to enrol his immediate relatives in the INS naturalization process, but they will have to go through the regular way.

Does this sound like a plan?


as for women the same should apply but the infantry part. They should be able to join and follow the same procedure but must join a critical MOS that women can be a part of. like Medic for example.

[loganinkosovo]

Damn Gringos. If they put up the Fence, Mexico would actually have to start taking care of their own people! How Dare we!

[alvarezinfantry]

Damn Gringos. If they put up the Fence, Mexico would actually have to start taking care of their own people! How Dare we!


DO you smoke crak? just wondering man some peoples childern and the junk they say LOL man you are killing me.

[Satellite Weapon]

New wall not expected to stop migrants http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=523580&category=&BCCode=&newsdate=10/7/2006

[Remington Rand]

Overthrowing the legitimate democratically elected Mexican government will not solve anything. They are still bitching about Texas and southwest.

Illegals should not have priority over legals who wait YEARS to come to America.

I don't know who is doing your citizenship paperwork but some of my guys got their within six months and tey were legal immigrants to America. One was Vietnamese the other two were Filipinos.

True on both accounts. Overthrowing the government isnt right, no matter how bad it is. And, illegals should not have priority over those who waited in line. That is so backwards. It penalizes law abiding people and rewards those to break the law. Is that who we want in this country? Only those who follow the laws should be let in...like virtually all Americans did. My ancestors waited in line at Ellis Island...they didnt sneak in. RR

[Mastermind]

@ AlvarzI....Well, "Americanism" seems to be what all the Mexicans want right now...isn't it? They hate their own country so much the run like rabbits north to us "feelthy gringos" don't they?

Yeah...I say open the gates and I mean it...But, the law needs to be obeyed....as it was for my immigrant forefathers...they didn't "sneak" in! They stood in line and got their permission just like everyone else..Chinese, Polish, Hungarian, Jew or Brit...you name it. But, anyone who decides they will just "sweem a reever" should be caught and sent back. It should not only be illegal to bust in like that...but it should be illegal to hire them (which it really is...but the law is not enforced). I see these Mexican labor bums standing around gas stations and nurserys for work....more power to them...that's a damn hard life. I have also been inside the "labor houses" here where up to fifty illegals are living in squalid conditions and are virtual slaves to the Mexican people who run those houses....this I have seen many times with my own eyes right here in Las Vegas. If worker immigration was made legal and proper...I can assure you these houses would dry up overnight. And a worker could work without fear of INS ...they could get driver licenses....so long as they remain citizens of their own nation. So there is a very strong force of undergound here that preys on your lovely little "illegals" and you don't seem to care on bit about that.

Open the gates...let 'em all in....then there would be a kind of truth to the matter, now wouldn't there?

MM

[haze99]

Good to have you here MM!
as for alvarezinf, the "Indian" tribes here were not American. Nor were they "Native" to the continent, they had migrated here centuries earlier. They were spread over a vast area having different customs, tribal laws and agreements. (they sure as hell were not unified.) America does have a distinct culture (It is Multi-Racial, not multi-cultral) The American culture was formed from Judeo-Christian principles found in the Bible. (not hindu, buddhist or muslim.) Thus we inherit values that make the American culture unique and benefical for all. (is it perfect? No, though you are free to move to Antartica!) We have a common language English, just as many other countries have one as well. Though others may be spoken in that country, they have a one distinct language which to work by.
If American is suppose to take care of its citizens, why is it that Mexico is not suppose to take care of its own? And why is it that any comment made about this, is attacked as being racist or ignorant?

[sferrin]

because its there and its true. Racism is for real and the notion that you can say lets build a alligator trench and junk like that is ludicrous. I am a Proud US INFANTRY soldier, I can fight and die along side Americans but I'm not allowed to vote. America need to get it straight. America needs Immigrant workers. and America needs to see the facts. Latinos are a vital part of the US Armed forces and a vital part of the US labor force.

They can do it legally or they can f--k off. Or is there some reason you feel they should be above the law?

[Ordie]

The American culture was formed from Judeo-Christian principles found in the Bible.

George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Benjamin Franklin, and Cornelius Harnett were Deist.



Deism is belief in the existence of a personal God, with disbelief in Christian teaching, or with a purely rationalistic interpretation of Scripture... sought to construct a natural religion by the light of reason alone, totally discrediting revelation.

—Webster's New International Dictionary of the English Language (G. & C. Merriam, 1924)

[Mastermind]

Well, that takes care of seven of the thousands who made The United States of America happen. The important thing was, the "Diests"(...which I happen to be one, also) did not go about murdering anyone and everyone who was NOT a Diest like them...they believed whole heartedly in the freedom of everyone to worship as they please without interference from the state! and that alone may be what made the American way unique and longed for by just about everyone else in the world.

MM

By the way...excellent commentary there Haze99.

[Jobu]

George Washington was a devout christian. Calling him a deist is a flat out lie. The guy was a member of the church board at Pohick, an Episcopalian.

[Ordie]

George Washington was a devout christian. Calling him a deist is a flat out lie. The guy was a member of the church board at Pohick, an Episcopalian.

He was also a Freemason.

[Jobu]

One of the requirements for joining the freemasons is that you believe in God.

Devout Episcopalians certainly fit the description.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

Good to have you here MM!
as for alvarezinf, the "Indian" tribes here were not American. Nor were they "Native" to the continent, they had migrated here centuries earlier. They were spread over a vast area having different customs, tribal laws and agreements. (they sure as hell were not unified.) America does have a distinct culture (It is Multi-Racial, not multi-cultral) The American culture was formed from Judeo-Christian principles found in the Bible. (not hindu, buddhist or muslim.) Thus we inherit values that make the American culture unique and benefical for all. (is it perfect? No, though you are free to move to Antartica!) We have a common language English, just as many other countries have one as well. Though others may be spoken in that country, they have a one distinct language which to work by.
If American is suppose to take care of its citizens, why is it that Mexico is not suppose to take care of its own? And why is it that any comment made about this, is attacked as being racist or ignorant?

RACIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok kidding, great post though