Spain´s new Leo2E

[foxtrot023]

http://mazalinos.wanadooadsl.net/images/mmg/10813812025171a.jpg
http://mazalinos.wanadooadsl.net/images/mmg/10813812045142a.jpg
http://mazalinos.wanadooadsl.net/images/mmg/10813812061573a.jpg
http://mazalinos.wanadooadsl.net/images/mmg/10813812079394.jpg

[Operation Ivy]

ewwwwwww :D

[He219]

Nice pic's, foxtrot023!
:D

What units will receive them and how many?

[Lysander]

Nice...how many is Spain going to get? They are built locally, right?

[MSpencer1313]

I'm starting to think the Leo2 might be better than the Abrams, but what the hell!
I don't really like the Leo2. The weaponry isn't as powerful, but sure, it can go faster... :roll:

I say M1A2 all the way.

[ecia81mm]

it is the prototype Leopard 2A6EX,brought for the parade of October 12,2002 . The Spanish leopardo 2E are painted of green.


foxtrot 023 te recomiendo que escanees la imagen que aparece el Leo en unas instalaciones valladas,se reconoce porque el carro solo lleva seis lanzafumigenos,ese si es un Leopardo 2E...

[foxtrot023]

Hi Lysander,

Yes, Spain will build 219+ in SBB-GD factories in Spain (after lenghty negotiations because the german didn´t want GD access to the Leo2 technology). then it seem it will upgrade the 108 Leo24 it has on loan from Germany to the Leo2E standard (A6) for a total of aprox. 327 Leo2E.

To HE219

Per units here will be the distribution:

Mecanized Division
Total: 207 MBTs (176 Leo 2E + 31 Leo 2A4)
Armored Brigade Guadarrama XII. - 88 Leo 2E
Mechanized Brigade Extremadura XI. - 44 Leo 2E
Mechanized Brigade Guzmán El Bueno X. - 44 Leo 2E

NTD - RCLAC Farnesio N° 12 - 31 Leo 2A4
BRC Castillejos II. - Total: 41 MBTs (Leo 2E), 62 VRC Centauro
RCAC Pavía N° 4. - 39 Leo 2E
RCLAC Numáncia N°9. - 31 VRC Centauro
RCLAC España N° 11. - 31 VRC Centauro

FAR - Rapid Response Force. - Total: 22 VRC Centauro.
RLC Lusitánia N° 8: 22 VRC Centauro

Area Defense Forces. - Total: 56 MBTs (Leo 2A4)
RCAC Montesa N° 3. - 26 Leo 2A4
RCAC Alcántara N° 10. - 26 Leo 2A4

Plus 16 Leo 2A4 to the Marine brigade.

The 4 Leo 2E and 9 Leo 2A4 that remain will go to the San Gregorio Academy and the M60ATT3 will go to OPFOR formation centre.

regards

[Haiw]

I'm starting to think the Leo2 might be better than the Abrams, but what the hell!
I don't really like the Leo2. The weaponry isn't as powerful, but sure, it can go faster... :roll:

I say M1A2 all the way.
Huh? Last thing I heard the newest Leo2s actually had a more powerfull gun than the Abrams.

[seventy6er]

The weaponry isn't as powerful :roll:


Why that? The Abrams uses the main-gun of the Leo. The latest Leo version (A6) even got an upgraded gun which is way better than the "old" gun (as still used in the Abrams).

Armor-nuts, correct me if I'm wrong.

[foxtrot023]

it is the prototype Leopard 2A6EX,brought for the parade of October 12,2002 . The Spanish leopardo 2E are painted of green.


foxtrot 023 te recomiendo que escanees la imagen que aparece el Leo en unas instalaciones valladas,se reconoce porque el carro solo lleva seis lanzafumigenos,ese si es un Leopardo 2E...

Esta?

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TgANA1sXEJXa3FiqiFyYkv6v4cSpWLtTYXKCNb4tTuWtg5CXLbkSqggX8Fr8PrSDviwc4xsa3KM74OO8D8iOV0Ki9jb6R!*ot6t1W7mGghxM2SHcDreG!w/Leopardo%205.1.JPG?dc=4675467207536606385

[Operation Ivy]

I'm starting to think the Leo2 might be better than the Abrams, but what the hell!
I don't really like the Leo2. The weaponry isn't as powerful, but sure, it can go faster... :roll:

I say M1A2 all the way.
Huh? Last thing I heard the newest Leo2s actually had a more powerfull gun than the Abrams.

Hmm didnt hear about that article mabe? :D and MSpencer why would you think the Leo is better then the Abrams :fork: :D

[foxtrot023]

I'm starting to think the Leo2 might be better than the Abrams, but what the hell!
I don't really like the Leo2. The weaponry isn't as powerful, but sure, it can go faster... :roll:

I say M1A2 all the way.

Speed is about the same, but the new gun and Ammo for the Leo2A6 makes it more powerfull (not to mention that the M1A2 used the previous leo gun).

They are very similar otherwise.

Regards

[Operation Ivy]

I'm starting to think the Leo2 might be better than the Abrams, but what the hell!
I don't really like the Leo2. The weaponry isn't as powerful, but sure, it can go faster... :roll:

I say M1A2 all the way.

Speed is about the same, but the new gun and Ammo for the Leo2A6 makes it more powerfull (not to mention that the M1A2 used the previous leo gun).

They are very similar otherwise.

Regards

Yes thank you Germany for the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore cannon :hug:

[MSpencer1313]

The Leo2 is better than the abrams, but not by much. Then you must factor in crews, and the Leo2 is only a better hunk of metal.
By far, US trained crews would surpass those operating the Leo2 currently, unless I've been misled by all the US Army and Marine Corps training programs? Hmm?

[HELEX]

M1A2 has better front protection for its more offensive use, Leo 2 has better roof protection against top attack in more defensive role.

[seventy6er]

Leo2A6 Gallery #1 (http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/leo2a6/leo2a6.htm)

Leo2A6 Gallery #2 (http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/leo2a6/gal1.htm)

Leo2A6 Gallery #3 (http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/leo2a6/gal2.htm)

[FallenAngel]

Yes thank you Germany for the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore cannon :hug:

That's right...on your knees :P :lol: Even though I am an American, I have got to admit the Germans know what they're doing when it comes to tanks.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Swedish version of the Leo2A5/6 is better than both German Leo2A5/6 and the US's M1A1/2 Abrams?

[foxtrot023]

The Leo2 is better than the abrams, but not by much. Then you must factor in crews, and the Leo2 is only a better hunk of metal.
By far, US trained crews would surpass those operating the Leo2 currently, unless I've been misled by all the US Army and Marine Corps training programs? Hmm?

Yes the differences are small indeed between both tanks. In regards to training, all Leo2 user nations are NATO, as well as the US, and they all have a similar training program. Perharps if someone could post the annual results of NATO tank crews competitions?

Regards

[MSpencer1313]

I've got no idea where to start looking. The fact that they're all NATO has little to do with the training aspect, except there's always joint training data.

[ecia81mm]

no esa no,apenas se ve el color,fijate que el terreno esta elevado y esta vallado,son unas instalaciones (solo 6 lanzafumigenos ese lleva los 8).

[foxtrot023]

Yes thank you Germany for the Rheinmetall 120mm smoothbore cannon :hug:

That's right...on your knees :P :lol: Even though I am an American, I have got to admit the Germans know what they're doing when it comes to tanks.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Swedish version of the Leo2A5/6 is better than both German Leo2A5/6 and the US's M1A1/2 Abrams?

The swedish version is the latest with all the gizmos and bells and whistles. However, Spain`s Leo2E is no slouch either, and even its software package (made by Indra) is going to be adopted by Germany for their Leo2A6 (I am unsure as to where that is standing, last i read, the germans were buying it).

Regards

[foxtrot023]

no esa no,apenas se ve el color,fijate que el terreno esta elevado y esta vallado,son unas instalaciones (apenas se ve el color del carro)(solo 6 lanzafumigenos ese lleva los 8).

Sin embargo, esa foto me la confirmo un amigo que es oficial en el EdT que era la version que iba a recibir la DIMZ. En fin.

Saludos,

[HELEX]

The M1 and the Leopard II are "Brothers", they came from the same research program. The design of the M1 was more offensive and that of the Leopard more defensive.

[Operation Ivy]

The M1 and the Leopard II are "Brothers", they came from the same research program. The design of the M1 was more offensive and that of the Leopard more defensive.

I actully enjoyed that post by you :hug: and your post count is at 666 p-)

[MSpencer1313]

Something that's not anti-american bull****?

ARMAGEDDON!!! HIT THE DECK!!!

[Longbranch]

If nothing else, the Abrams doesn't have the shot trap in the front of the turret that the Leo has.

[ecia81mm]

esta es...

This one is LEOPARDO 2E

http://usuarios.lycos.es/multiuso/Leo2E.jpg

[HELEX]

@Longbranch


If nothing else, the Abrams doesn't have the shot trap in the front of the turret that the Leo has.


There are no such things as shot traps agaist Sabot or ATGMS, they even "bite" in extremely sloped armor. It is not relevant.

[mustamato]

I don´t know why people still claim that the Swedish version is the most
advanced in the Leo 2-family. Of course much is secrets so I don´t know
for sure, but I do know that the latest German Leo 2 has a longer (more
powerful) main gun, and it´s several years newer which should show of
in the computers etc used. The first Swedish Leo 2 was delivered in 1997, so
technologically the computers etc should be from the mid-90´s.

[FallenAngel]

I don´t know why people still claim that the Swedish version is the most
advanced in the Leo 2-family. Of course much is secrets so I don´t know
for sure, but I do know that the latest German Leo 2 has a longer (more
powerful) main gun, and it´s several years newer which should show of
in the computers etc used. The first Swedish Leo 2 was delivered in 1997, so
technologically the computers etc should be from the mid-90´s.

The A6 does have a more powerful gun...but, again I might be wrong, most (read: almost all) the Leos in the German inventory are A5s?

[AVZ]

@ 76er: You know were the pic's have been shot????

Because I got a feeling I know the barracks were at least a few were shot.

[ecia81mm]

The most advanced leopard is the Spanish, for the present...

conditioning air,APU,new thermal cameras,Lince command and control, is a Leo 2A6 with greater armour protection.

[HELEX]

I heard of an ERA package for the Roof of the Leo 2A6 Turret, has anybody Pictures of that?

[Operation Ivy]

but I do know that the latest German Leo 2 has a longer (more
powerful) main gun

Are we talking about the 120mm, or has Germany moved to a 140mm?

[ecia81mm]

german Leopard A6 use 120/55. leopard 2 A4/A5 120/44.

[HELEX]

Its just longer.

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Leo2_Pics/Rheinmetall-New-120mm-L55.gif
The 120 mm L55 hyper-velocity gun: a 130 cm increase in barrel length plus other modifications resulted in a higher projectile velocity and increased KE-performance.


Here are 2 Prototypes with a 140mm

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Leo2_Pics/leo2_140mm_color.jpg

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/Leo2_Pics/leo2_140mm_color-2.jpg

[seventy6er]

@ 76er: You know were the pic's have been shot????

Because I got a feeling I know the barracks were at least a few were shot.

Sorry, no idea...

[deutschersoldat]

what happens if this gets destroyed. is it unable to drive in the night then??
it must be easy to destry it, right? with one good aime shoot of a 5.56mm gun??

http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/leo2a6/Bild_059.JPG

[Parzival]

I'm starting to think the Leo2 might be better than the Abrams, but what the hell!
I don't really like the Leo2. The weaponry isn't as powerful, but sure, it can go faster... :roll:

I say M1A2 all the way.
What? The new Leopard 2 for example swedish A5 are more powerfull and and more equipped than any of the Abrams tank. And the german a6 leopard. God ,that is a powerfull tank!

[perdurabo]

what happens if this gets destroyed. is it unable to drive in the night then??
it must be easy to destry it, right? with one good aime shoot of a 5.56mm gun??

http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/leo2a6/Bild_059.JPG
.50 BMG maybe can damge it but 5.56 i doubt :)
It prabably has some steel covers when it isn't used
And AFAIK it has at least 3 backup targetting systems... :)

[foxtrot023]

what happens if this gets destroyed. is it unable to drive in the night then??
it must be easy to destry it, right? with one good aime shoot of a 5.56mm gun??

http://www.panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/leo2a6/Bild_059.JPG
.50 BMG maybe can damge it but 5.56 i doubt :)
It prabably has some steel covers when it isn't used
And AFAIK it has at least 3 backup targetting systems... :)

Not to mention how hard must it be to target it while the tank is moving, and even if you get that close, it isn`t exactly healthy to engage a MBT at that distance.

Regards

[hedgehog]

Here is a recent article about mine protection.

http://www.kmweg.de/english/news/news59.html

[hedgehog]

http://www.kmweg.de/english/news/news56.html

oops..forgot that one

[Operation Ivy]

german Leopard A6 use 120/55. leopard 2 A4/A5 120/44.

thank you ;) :D

[strvkomp]

[quote=MSpencer1313]I'm starting to think the Leo2 might be better than the Abrams, but what the hell!
I don't really like the Leo2. The weaponry isn't as powerful, but sure, it can go faster... :roll:

I say M1A2 all the way.

I say Leopard 2 A5S all the way.
The M1A2 has a gasturbine instead of a regular diesel engine. This gives the advantage that it's smaller which means that you can put more armor in the hull. However, the fuel consumtion of the M1A2 doesn't compensate for that. As I understand it, this has been a major problem in Iraq.

M1A2 does not have better frontprotection for its offensive roll, on the contrary. No modern anti tank weapon has the power to penetrate the
Leo 2 A5S in it's front.

M1A2 carry several different guns with different types of ammunition. The downput to this is that you get less storage capability for every kind of ammo. It's better to just have on type of small arms ammunition, as is the case of the Leo 2 who carries two Mg3, 7,62 machineguns.

The commander of the M1A2 does not have the sofisticated TCCS, tank commander control system, or in Swedish, LSS.

And no the periscop doesn't brake if you shoot 5,56 on it, neither does the gunners sight. The Leos periscope is also better protected. And why wouldn't you be able to drive in the dark? The driver has an imageenhanser(*spelling) which he quickly can put in place plus that the loader has on to, which is worn on the head.

All electrical components in the Leo are "fast wired" so if one brakes you just have to change that one component and its cord(if it's broken)

The commander of the M1A2 does not have is own Infra Red sight as the commander in a Leo 2 has.

So I think it's fare to say that Stridsvagn 122, Leopars 2 A5S is a better MBT than M1A2.
Wouldn't you agree?

//Strvkomp

[Truthsayer]

The Swedish Strv122S is under evaluation if the new 140mm cannon should be fitted.

The longer 120/55 is however not likely to be choosen right now, since the shorter barrel has an advantage in thick pine-tree forrests.

But again, everything about future plans is very hush-hush, so don't go spreading it around. ;)

[Operation Ivy]

[quote=MSpencer1313]I'm starting to think the Leo2 might be better than the Abrams, but what the hell!
I don't really like the Leo2. The weaponry isn't as powerful, but sure, it can go faster... :roll:

I say M1A2 all the way.

I say Leopard 2 A5S all the way.
The M1A2 has a gasturbine instead of a regular diesel engine. This gives the advantage that it's smaller which means that you can put more armor in the hull. However, the fuel consumtion of the M1A2 doesn't compensate for that. As I understand it, this has been a major problem in Iraq.
8 gallons to the mile
M1A2 does not have better frontprotection for its offensive roll, on the contrary. No modern anti tank weapon has the power to penetrate the
Leo 2 A5S in it's front.
hmmm do u happen to have any info on that
M1A2 carry several different guns with different types of ammunition. The downput to this is that you get less storage capability for every kind of ammo. It's better to just have on type of small arms ammunition, as is the case of the Leo 2 who carries two Mg3, 7,62 machineguns.
Abrams carries 40 tank rounds how many does the Leo carry? The Abrams has 3 mgs, 1 .50cal, 2 M240 7.62 mgs
The commander of the M1A2 does not have the sofisticated TCCS, tank commander control system, or in Swedish, LSS.
get back to you on that one
And no the periscop doesn't brake if you shoot 5,56 on it, neither does the gunners sight. The Leos periscope is also better protected. And why wouldn't you be able to drive in the dark? The driver has an imageenhanser(*spelling) which he quickly can put in place plus that the loader has on to, which is worn on the head.
tanks shouldnt fight at night ;)
All electrical components in the Leo are "fast wired" so if one brakes you just have to change that one component and its cord(if it's broken)
dont know about the Abrams on that one
The commander of the M1A2 does not have is own Infra Red sight as the commander in a Leo 2 has.
True, he shares it with the gunner, whats wrong with sharing
So I think it's fare to say that Stridsvagn 122, Leopars 2 A5S is a better MBT than M1A2.
Wouldn't you agree?
i would say slighty, the engine is the only real problem
//Strvkomp

Not trying to sound like an asshole :D correct me if you need to :hug:

[dejawolf]

AFAIK, the TC on the M1A2 has his own little CITV periscope on the left side of the turret, with 50x zoom and thermals.

the leopard 2 has 42 main gun rounds.
also, i've heard the leopard 2A4 has a better thermal imager than the M1A1, but i don't know about the more modern 2a6EX vs M1A2.

talking about shot traps, there's a quite big one right underneath the front turret of the M1 tank. it goes far steeper into the frontal armour than on the leopard.

[stuntman]

MSpencer1313, Ivy, this is for you guys!
The Leohttp://gallery.cybertarp.com/albums/userpics/14008/GCS0001%7E0.jpg
US Marine
http://gallery.cybertarp.com/albums/userpics/14008/GCS0002%7E0.jpg
He fires
http://gallery.cybertarp.com/albums/userpics/14008/GCS0003%7E0.jpg
Delivery
http://gallery.cybertarp.com/albums/userpics/14008/GCS0004%7E0.jpg
Result
http://gallery.cybertarp.com/albums/userpics/14008/GCS0005%7E0.jpg
Leo better hahahaha
Enjoy and http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:TGIzKTCKPlkJ:www.snipeme.com/downloads/tryandstop.jpg

[foxtrot023]

Stuntman

Were can you download scenarios for Operation Flashpoint?

Thanks

[Shadow]

Does anybody know how many tank we have in europe?

[perdurabo]

The Swedish Strv122S is under evaluation if the new 140mm cannon should be fitted.

The longer 120/55 is however not likely to be choosen right now, since the shorter barrel has an advantage in thick pine-tree forrests.

But again, everything about future plans is very hush-hush, so don't go spreading it around. ;)
140mm is dead project, only new light 120 is on the way for smaller vehicles...
you know that in forrest when you ride you turn turret on the back to not get it demaged? and i highly doubt about tank duel in forest because its range would shortened and ATGMs ppl could easly make trap and destroy it...

[Haiw]

Does anybody know how many tank we have in europe?
More than they have in the US. :P

[strvkomp]

8 gallons to the mile

8 gallons to the mile, yes, in good conditions on flat surfaces. Considering my tank consumed 80 liter of diesel for every 10 kilometers in two meters of snow in minus -37C, I don't even want to think about what the M1 would consume under the same circumstances.

hmmm do u happen to have any info on that

Chobham armour is a composite armour developed at the British tank research centre on Chobham Common. Although the exact composition of Chobham armour remains a secret, it appears to be a combination of ceramic layered between armor steel plating, a combination that is excellent at defeating high explosive anti-tank (HEAT) rounds.

The exact nature of the protection offered by this layering remained a mystery for some time, but it was eventually revealed that Chobham armour works in a manner somewhat similar to reactive armor. When the armor is hit by a HEAT round the ceramic layer shatters under the impact point, forming a dust under high pressure. When the HEAT round "burns through" the outer layers of armor and reaches the ceramic, the dust comes flying back out the hole, slowing the jet of metal.

Modern tanks also have to face KE-penetrator rounds of various sorts, which the ceramic layer is not particularily effective against. For this reason many modern designs include additional layers of heavy metals to add more density to the overall armor package. The metal used appears to be either tungsten or, in the case of later M1 Abrams tanks, depleted uranium.

The effectiveness of Chobham armour was demonstrated in the first Gulf War, where no Coalition tank was destroyed by Iraqi armor. In some cases the tanks in question were subject to multiple point-blank hits by both KE-penetrators and HEAT rounds, but the lower power of the T-72 and T-64 guns left them completely incapable of penetrating the armor. To date only one Chobham protected tank has been defeated in combat, an M1 that was hit by an advanced dual-warhead HEAT wire guided missile in the second Gulf War.

Chobham armour is used on the Challenger II, the Leopard II and the M1 Abrams series of tanks.

From Wikipedia encyclopedia


Abrams carries 40 tank rounds how many does the Leo carry? The Abrams has 3 mgs, 1 .50cal, 2 M240 7.62 mgs

The Leo 2 carry 42 + 1 rounds of ammunition. It has special storagespots for 7,62, a total of 4, 750 rounds. Plus that you can store even more 7,62 ammo in different comparments if you mock around a bit.

get back to you on that one

You do that. To have an LSS is a crucial advantage. It is a system with feutures allowing the commander to send data, see every freindly unit on a map, give waypoints to the driver, set the radio frekvens(spelling), check the fuel level etc etc etc.

tanks shouldnt fight at night ;)

Considering that was a stupid thing to say, I have no comment.

dont know about the Abrams on that one

I don't think the Leo and the M1 has the same type of setup here. But I do suspect it is somthing similar.

True, he shares it with the gunner, whats wrong with sharing

Whats wrong with that? I'll tell you. You lose observation, observation is the key in tank warfare, the first one to shot wins. In artic conditoins an extra infra red scope is vital, not only at night but also in daytime. The tankcommander has the ability to when seing a target press a button and the turret will lock on the point on which he is aiming then he can either mesure laser and shoot or give the turret back to the gunner so that he can take the shot.

i would say slighty, the engine is the only real problem

The engine isn't the only "real problem". The M1A2 is a very good and able MBT but it is not better than the Leopard 2 A5S.

//Strvkomp

PS: You never ever advance through forrest or any other enviorment with the turret at six 'o clock to protect the main gun. The gunner has no observation and you have no ability to defend yourself. An absurd thought.
DS

[[AFSOC]]

SPanish army looks a lot like the German ARMY Eh??

Anybody else agreE?

[Parzival]

Does anybody know how many tank we have in europe?
More than they have in the US. :P
I think he mean EU, And i don't think EU has more tanks than US, not a chance.

[mustamato]

Does anybody know how many tank we have in europe?
More than they have in the US. :P
I think he mean EU, And i don't think EU has more tanks than US, not a chance.

"Not a chance"? Have ever had right in anything? EU consists of these countries,
(the three last countries are candidate countries that may join soon):

Belgium
Denmark
Germany
Greece
Spain
France
Ireland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Austria
Portugal
Finland
Sweden
Great Britain
Czech Republic
Estonia
Cyprus
Latvia
Lithuania
Hungary
Malta
Poland
Slovenia
Slovakia
Bulgaria
Romania
Turkey

And you think that US have more tanks than all those?

[Parzival]

This is for you guys!

Abraam vs Swedish Skyttesoldat

http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload2/444.JPG

http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload2/dd.JPG

http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload2/tggg.JPG
Kabooom!!!!!!!!!

[Haiw]

Does anybody know how many tank we have in europe?
More than they have in the US. :P
I think he mean EU, And i don't think EU has more tanks than US, not a chance.

"Not a chance"? Have ever had right in anything? EU consists of these countries,
(the three last countries are candidate countries that may join soon):

Belgium
Denmark
Germany
Greece
Spain
France
Ireland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Austria
Portugal
Finland
Sweden
Great Britain
Czech Republic
Estonia
Cyprus
Latvia
Lithuania
Hungary
Malta
Poland
Slovenia
Slovakia
Bulgaria
Romania
Turkey

And you think that US have more tanks than all those?
Doesn't Germany alone have almost as much or even more tanks than the US?

[foxtrot023]

Germany used to have 2300 MBTs (Leo2) in the late 90s. Future plans are to have 750 Leo2A6 for combat and 750 Leo2A4 for training and everyday ¨wear¨.

Regards

[Parzival]

Does anybody know how many tank we have in europe?
More than they have in the US. :P
I think he mean EU, And i don't think EU has more tanks than US, not a chance.

"Not a chance"? Have ever had right in anything? EU consists of these countries,
(the three last countries are candidate countries that may join soon):

Belgium
Denmark
Germany
Greece
Spain
France
Ireland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Austria
Portugal
Finland
Sweden
Great Britain
Czech Republic
Estonia
Cyprus
Latvia
Lithuania
Hungary
Malta
Poland
Slovenia
Slovakia
Bulgaria
Romania
Turkey

And you think that US have more tanks than all those?
I said EU right know so
Belgium
Denmark
Germany
Greece
Spain
France
Ireland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Austria
Portugal
Finland
Sweden
Great Britain

And i don't think they got more tanks than US. Maybe they use more tanks, but i don't think they really got more tanks.

[Haiw]

Does anybody know how many tank we have in europe?
More than they have in the US. :P
I think he mean EU, And i don't think EU has more tanks than US, not a chance.

"Not a chance"? Have ever had right in anything? EU consists of these countries,
(the three last countries are candidate countries that may join soon):

Belgium
Denmark
Germany
Greece
Spain
France
Ireland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Austria
Portugal
Finland
Sweden
Great Britain
Czech Republic
Estonia
Cyprus
Latvia
Lithuania
Hungary
Malta
Poland
Slovenia
Slovakia
Bulgaria
Romania
Turkey

And you think that US have more tanks than all those?
I said EU right know so
Belgium
Denmark
Germany
Greece
Spain
France
Ireland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Austria
Portugal
Finland
Sweden
Great Britain

And i don't think they got more tanks than US. Maybe they use more tanks, but i don't think they really got more tanks.

Okay, now if you'd actually do some research before you open your mouth for once instead of producing random crap... :roll:

http://topgun.rin.ru/cgi-bin/texts.pl?category=state&mode=select&lng=eng (2001 numbers I believe)
Now let's start counting:

US: 7620 Abrams (all configurations) (so we'll just be comparing MBTs then).

EU:
Belgium, 132
Denmark, 238
Germany, 2521
Greece, 733
Spain, 688
France, 809
Ireland, cheap bastards don't seem to have MBTs.
Italy, 1349
Luxembourg, cheap bastards don't have any MBTs either.
Netherlands, 320
Austria, 277
Portugal, 187
Finland, 230
Sweden, 500
UK, 636
-------------
8620


Europe has more tanks (oh, and I have my doubts about the 7620 US number, last thing I heard on Discovery Channel was around 2500, but hey, you get my point; we have more tanks.

[Parzival]

Does anybody know how many tank we have in europe?
More than they have in the US. :P
I think he mean EU, And i don't think EU has more tanks than US, not a chance.

"Not a chance"? Have ever had right in anything? EU consists of these countries,
(the three last countries are candidate countries that may join soon):

Belgium
Denmark
Germany
Greece
Spain
France
Ireland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Austria
Portugal
Finland
Sweden
Great Britain
Czech Republic
Estonia
Cyprus
Latvia
Lithuania
Hungary
Malta
Poland
Slovenia
Slovakia
Bulgaria
Romania
Turkey

And you think that US have more tanks than all those?
I said EU right know so
Belgium
Denmark
Germany
Greece
Spain
France
Ireland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Austria
Portugal
Finland
Sweden
Great Britain

And i don't think they got more tanks than US. Maybe they use more tanks, but i don't think they really got more tanks.

Okay, now if you'd actually do some research before you open your mouth for once instead of producing random crap... :roll:

http://topgun.rin.ru/cgi-bin/texts.pl?category=state&mode=select&lng=eng (2001 numbers I believe)
Now let's start counting:

US: 7620 Abrams (all configurations) (so we'll just be comparing MBTs then).

EU:
Belgium, 132
Denmark, 238
Germany, 2521
Greece, 733
Spain, 688
France, 809
Ireland, cheap bastards don't seem to have MBTs.
Italy, 1349
Luxembourg, cheap bastards don't have any MBTs either.
Netherlands, 320
Austria, 277
Portugal, 187
Finland, 230
Sweden, 500
UK, 636
-------------
8620


Europe has more tanks (oh, and I have my doubts about the 7620 US number, last thing I heard on Discovery Channel was around 2500, but hey, you get my point; we have more tanks.
Well, My opinion was what I think. I did never said I was sure. And I don't trust 100% at this site. For example the militaryt budgets are totally wrong in some case. But, they have probaly right with the tanks.

[Parzival]

Does anybody know how many tank we have in europe?
More than they have in the US. :P
I think he mean EU, And i don't think EU has more tanks than US, not a chance.

"Not a chance"? Have ever had right in anything? EU consists of these countries,
(the three last countries are candidate countries that may join soon):

Belgium
Denmark
Germany
Greece
Spain
France
Ireland
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Austria
Portugal
Finland
Sweden
Great Britain
Czech Republic
Estonia
Cyprus
Latvia
Lithuania
Hungary
Malta
Poland
Slovenia
Slovakia
Bulgaria
Romania
Turkey

And you think that US have more tanks than all those?
Turkey will never join EU, Why do you think that?, Only a little bit of the country belongs to Europe. It´s a muslim country and it will never join EU. I don´t think Romania will join EU niether.

[Icarus_222]

Greece, 733

Greece is currently re-aligning it's armour so that it totals 1250 tanks (Leo2GR, Leo2A4, Leo1A5, M-48A5MOLF), and the current number is WELL ABOVE 1250 let alone 733.

[foxtrot023]

Greece is currently re-aligning it's armour so that it totals 1250 tanks (Leo2GR, Leo2A4, Leo1A5, M-48A5MOLF), and the current number is WELL ABOVE 1250 let alone 733.

Are the Leo2GR already built and handed over to Greece? It was only recently elected as the greek MBT. Likewise with the Leo2A4, I am not aware that Greece had some (can you produce more data, thanks)

regards

[GrimmyRX]

The Leo2 is better than the abrams, but not by much. Then you must factor in crews, and the Leo2 is only a better hunk of metal.
By far, US trained crews would surpass those operating the Leo2 currently, unless I've been misled by all the US Army and Marine Corps training programs? Hmm?

Actually, in many of the more recent Tank VS Tank J.E's the US has had with Canada, I do believe that Canada's tankers have won.

(Canada uses upgraded Leo1's :lol: )

[Operation Ivy]

Didnt win this year buddy ;)

[wholagun]

Didnt win this year buddy ;)

yeah this year it went to the yanks

I wonder whats gonna happen to the competition now that we're getting rid of our tanks?

[stuntman]

This is for you guys!

Abraam vs Swedish Skyttesoldat

http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload2/444.JPG

http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload2/dd.JPG

http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload2/tggg.JPG
Kabooom!!!!!!!!!

You bastard! By the way are those Swiss soldiers? Because I have no Swiss troops to fight I'm tired of beating the french. So please I would love the link to that mod the trooper looks good! thx
And to who ever it was who asked about capturing screen shots! Just down load the software from here, http://www.boumchalak.de/Tools/GCS/Download/download.html

[Truthsayer]

The illustration is incorrect ocourse (ofcourse, why wouldn't it, it's from Mr Bacon).

The AT-4 doesn't take out an MBT.

It takes a whole bunch of them. (14-16 in the front for example.)

[stuntman]

The illustration is incorrect ocourse (ofcourse, why wouldn't it, it's from Mr Bacon).

The AT-4 doesn't take out an MBT.

It takes a whole bunch of them. (14-16 in the front for example.)

I agree that the AT4 can not take out a m1a2 tank but I think he was attempting to answer my leo attack all in fun.

[Truthsayer]

Yes, but he should have used the MBT LAW, RB 56 or other carried weaponry we have, that _could_ have taken out the tank in one hit. :)

[Icarus_222]

Are the Leo2GR already built and handed over to Greece? It was only recently elected as the greek MBT. Likewise with the Leo2A4, I am not aware that Greece had some (can you produce more data, thanks)

regards

No they are not yet my friend. The Leo1A4's which were part of the deal for 170 Leo2GR's should begin arriving late this year (183 in total). Both will replace the M-60 series and the older M-48's.

[stuntman]

Yes, but he should have used the MBT LAW, RB 56 or other carried weaponry we have, that _could_ have taken out the tank in one hit. :)

Sounds cool any pics of what it looks like and whos the maker?
Does it have Jav power or more thx?

[seventy6er]

Doesn't Germany alone have almost as much or even more tanks than the US?

No, in our "Best" times we had 2.437 Leo1A5 and 2.100sth Leo2 plus some hundreds old M48. That was in the end of the 80s, earl 90s. 5.500 MBTs total... After reunification in 1990, we got some thousand T-72/T55, but I think we never got more MBTs than the USA (I think they got sth around 8.000)...

[Truthsayer]

Yes, but he should have used the MBT LAW, RB 56 or other carried weaponry we have, that _could_ have taken out the tank in one hit. :)

Sounds cool any pics of what it looks like and whos the maker?
Does it have Jav power or more thx?

Ofcourse.

Been posted before, but here goes:

RB 56 : Robot 56

http://www.soldf.com/rb56.html


MBT LAW
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/mbt_law/
http://www.ets-news.com/MBT.htm


The best link for both is ofcourse this:
http://www.saab.se/dynamics/node4697.asp?exhibitionid=16
(RB 56 is called BILL 2 outside the military here.)

That link contains movies for both systems, aswell as AT-4CS (Confined Space), Carl-Gustaf, RBS 70, Torpedo 2000 and AT-4.

[Parzival]

This is for you guys!

Abraam vs Swedish Skyttesoldat

http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload2/444.JPG

http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload2/dd.JPG

http://upl.silentwhisper.net/uplfolders/upload2/tggg.JPG
Kabooom!!!!!!!!!

You bastard! By the way are those Swiss soldiers? Because I have no Swiss troops to fight I'm tired of beating the french. So please I would love the link to that mod the trooper looks good! thx
And to who ever it was who asked about capturing screen shots! Just down load the software from here, http://www.boumchalak.de/Tools/GCS/Download/download.html
No, This is Swedish soldiers http://www.swepack.tk Do you have more US marines addons? Because I am a little bit tired to fight against the russians and americans and there army how it loooks 1985, and here i come with swedish high-tech. So it would be more funny to fight against a little bit more equipped americans and russians. And I can see at that picture, this is the new uniofroms for the Marines, so you most play with modern US-soldiers.

[stuntman]

Yeah thx so much! The mods are great. So try these modern US Armyhttp://www.atwar.net/download.php?view.3565 You will crap your pants with these!
This is the modern USMC and RussianMC pack You will love the Javelyn and the russian rpg-7 has two types of rounds. (this pack is my favorite) http://www.atwar.net/download.php?view.3361
http://www.digitalgrenade.com/subs/usmc/shots/shot1.jpg
http://www.digitalgrenade.com/subs/usmc/shots/shot6.jpg
http://www.digitalgrenade.com/subs/usmc/shots/shot8.jpg
http://www.digitalgrenade.com/subs/usmc/shots/shot9.jpg
And this websitehttp://www.atwar.netHas alsmost every nation and most weapons and vehicles! Enjoy..

[Parzival]

thank you stuntman,
You can download the swepack here :
http://sfp.silentheroes.net/downloads.php?langauge=eng

and check the screenshots here:
http://sfp.silentheroes.net/fotogalleri/fotogalleri.php?katalog=screens&rubrik=screens&showPic=ALL&langauge=eng

[esl]

M1A2 has better front protection for its more offensive use, Leo 2 has better roof protection against top attack in more defensive role.

how do you know that? ever thing I've read says the latest Leopard tank is the best protected armor!

[HELEX]

The M1 uses a lot of depleted uranium in its Armor, the Leopard not. The Leopard was constructed to fire from partly covered locations.

[wholagun]

is the plan to build the Bundeswehr a new tank in 2015 still holding strong or no?

[Andyman]

awesome pics p-)

[scoone]

Great pics woot

[HELEX]

is the plan to build the Bundeswehr a new tank in 2015 still holding strong or no?

Right now nobody knows.... its a funding question....

[Przezdzieblo]

The M1 uses a lot of depleted uranium in its Armor, the Leopard not. The Leopard was constructed to fire from partly covered locations.

M1A1HA and above. Those tanks have DU armour, but Leopards 2 A5 and above have Chobham 2 - probably better than first generation of this armour. In case of Leo 2 A5/A6 (and Strv 122, of course) you can see more than one meter of armour on the turrets front ;)

M1A2 and Leopard 2 A5/A6 armour protection is comparable, but probably the newest versions of German tank have a bit better.

[catdat]

True, he shares it with the gunner, whats wrong with sharing

Whats wrong with that? I'll tell you. You lose observation, observation is the key in tank warfare, the first one to shot wins. In artic conditoins an extra infra red scope is vital, not only at night but also in daytime. The tankcommander has the ability to when seing a target press a button and the turret will lock on the point on which he is aiming then he can either mesure laser and shoot or give the turret back to the gunner so that he can take the shot.

The US Army took a look at the Fire Control of the Leo and determined that they didn't want to lose the degree of control that US TC's have. I can't tell you how many times I've said "gunner, three tanks, left tank" then popped down and took a look and the gunner is lasing on the wrong one. If I had been pre-occupied finding the next target with the Leo system I would not have noticed the gunner's error. I'm not knocking the Leo, I've fired one during CATT at Graf and it's neat as hell. The Leo's system definately lets you engage multiple targets faster than the M1. Engaging the correct target is just as important though.


S: You never ever advance through forrest or any other enviorment with the turret at six 'o clock to protect the main gun. The gunner has no observation and you have no ability to defend yourself. An absurd thought.

Actually there are two instances when this may occur.
1) The last tank in a column advancing through woods would have it's gun over the rear - This is SOP.
2) If the woods are thick enough and I've got small trees and such to take out I'd move the gun over the rear to protect my boresight and zero. Hit one good size tree and lose zero what good will that do you the rest of the mission? Tanks in heavy woods must be careful when moving the turret around and the gunner is usually not going to be engaging his control over the turret. The TC will use his controls to move the gun to avoid obstacles.

splash out

[esl]

The M-1A2 armor rating is at 800mm KE resistance while the LEOPARD 2A4 is rated at 700mm KE and the leopard2 A5 is rated at 1100mm KE resistance.

How is the M1a2 better armor?

[HELEX]

@esl

Where did you get this ratings?

[Javehn]

Actually there are two instances when this may occur.
1) The last tank in a column advancing through woods would have it's gun over the rear - This is SOP.
2) If the woods are thick enough and I've got small trees and such to take out I'd move the gun over the rear to protect my boresight and zero. Hit one good size tree and lose zero what good will that do you the rest of the mission? Tanks in heavy woods must be careful when moving the turret around and the gunner is usually not going to be engaging his control over the turret. The TC will use his controls to move the gun to avoid obstacles.

Yes , i agree , and even more . No sane company Co will go inside forest with the company at the first, without clearing it first , by infantry , and set defensive perimeter . If the situation calls to do it , and there is no infantry attachment to the mission , i would enter the forest with preventive fire . But in normal situation , the defence is set before the tanks enter the forest , and in dence places , i would rather traverse turret to 6 o'clock to preserve GPS and FLIR sighting .


The US Army took a look at the Fire Control of the Leo and determined that they didn't want to lose the degree of control that US TC's have. I can't tell you how many times I've said "gunner, three tanks, left tank" then popped down and took a look and the gunner is lasing on the wrong one. If I had been pre-occupied finding the next target with the Leo system I would not have noticed the gunner's error. I'm not knocking the Leo, I've fired one during CATT at Graf and it's neat as hell. The Leo's system definately lets you engage multiple targets faster than the M1. Engaging the correct target is just as important though.

Can you tell please more about this subject ? I now , that Leo2AX don't have TC Joystick control over the turret , and if Commander wants to point the gunner in the direction , he have a Periscope with Master-Slave Periscop-Bore system . What would you say is more effective ? The M1 TC Joystick control , that gives from one side better control to traverse the turret , or Leo2AX Periscope system , that allows multiply target aquire ?


On the Way .

[catdat]

Can you tell please more about this subject ? I now , that Leo2AX don't have TC Joystick control over the turret , and if Commander wants to point the gunner in the direction , he have a Periscope with Master-Slave Periscop-Bore system . What would you say is more effective ? The M1 TC Joystick control , that gives from one side better control to traverse the turret , or Leo2AX Periscope system , that allows multiply target aquire ?

Javehn - the M1 probably works much the same as your Merkava from the standpount of how your sights and controls work. Both TC and gunner sight are slaved to the same target. When TC engages his "joystick" (what we call the commander's power control handle) he overides the gunner's control.
On the other hand, on the Leo2 the system is as you state above and the TC can switch between the gunner's view and an independent sight. This allows the TC to aquire an additional target at the same time as the gunner is engaging. This of course saves time but at the expense of control unless the TC is not using that option.
I guess it all comes down to the trust factor but I'd hate for my gunner to light up the tank that's not pointing at me in error. You don't get many second chances.

From my Position!

[esl]

@esl

Where did you get this ratings?

FAS website reports 700mm KE & 1000mm HEAT for the Leopard 2 tank while a russian site notes 700mm KE and 850mm HEAT. It could be that the hull is the lower figure?

German tanker told me 1100mm for the A5 and since the heavy armor on the L2A5 is thick [ Tanknet source measured it at two plates 2-3cm thick at large angle] this adds atleast 200mm to what the L2A4 offers or more than 900mm . So that might be right when you add the effects of spaced armor?

A serbian engineer told me 800mm for the M-1A2 and a similar figure was reported by a chinese source.


Heres a link to a old russian discussion on tank armor and on the page is a diagram where the LEO-2 armor is detailed.

http://forums.airbase.ru/index.php?s=d6efb726ffe44641b74ddd7308c985ed&showtopic=9376&st=0

[strvkomp]

With the strv 122 you can't fire the main gun with the turret at six o' clock. When the turret it fully operational a number of pre set "blocks" automaiclly start. One is that you can only fire the gun from twenty to eight til twenty past four. Another is that the main gun automaticlly elevates over the hull in case it's dumped and the turret is rotating, this to avoid it from chrashing it into the hull.


Actually there are two instances when this may occur.
1) The last tank in a column advancing through woods would have it's gun over the rear - This is SOP.
2) If the woods are thick enough and I've got small trees and such to take out I'd move the gun over the rear to protect my boresight and zero. Hit one good size tree and lose zero what good will that do you the rest of the mission? Tanks in heavy woods must be careful when moving the turret around and the gunner is usually not going to be engaging his control over the turret. The TC will use his controls to move the gun to avoid obstacles.

splash out

[Upfrontreporting]

Had the destinct pleasure of crawling all over a Leo 2A5 last week at the Danish Army Combat School, I'm fairly convinced that the Leo is up to any task that could be expected to be given to it on a mordern battlefield.
I got a really thorough walkthrough of said vehicle.

Got nice High-res of it too :D

[seventy6er]

Post em!!!

[Javehn]

A little thanks to German . In our Tank Museum in Israel (Called Lathrun) added new tank to collection , German Leopard 1A1 . Thanks for the donation (i hope very much i am not mistaken here ) ...

[strvkomp]

Is that the Leopard where the TC joystick looks and feels like a dildo? (and yes I'm serious)

[Javehn]

I am not shure , perhaps i will visit it soon , and i would tell you how it feels exactly :lol:

http://waronline.procentr.org/Waronline_photo/leopard_01_right.jpg

[strvkomp]

Yup, thats the one alright, if I'm not badly mistaken.