FBI agents slip into Canada without approval: report

[ed316]

FBI agents slip into Canada without approval: report

Last Updated: Thursday, October 5, 2006 | 8:12 AM ET

CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/credit.html)


An internal FBI audit shows that U.S. agents carry out investigations in Canada, often without the knowledge or approval of the Canadian government.
The most recent audit by the Federal Bureau of Investigation's inspector general, done in 2004, documents the growth of FBI operations in Canada since 2001.

It says the FBI has given agents in its Buffalo field office clearance to conduct "routine investigations" up to 50 miles into Canadian territory.

It also says that about 30 per cent of FBI agents crossing the border to work in Canada failed to get "country clearance." In other words, they didn't get Canada's approval.
The inspector general's report documents 135 unapproved FBI crossings and says there is no sign the crossings will stop.

Canadian officials say they have made no protest to the U.S. government about FBI agents operating without permission on Canadian soil.
According to the report, the FBI has struggled to keep up with its Canadian workload despite opening two new branch offices. It pursues thousands of leads a year in Canada, far more than in any other country except the United States.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/10/05/fbi-border.html

[Clayton Gold]

I dont see this a too big of a deal, unless Canadian citizens were to start being arrested here and brought to the US without our Government's consent.

[mudbunny]

If Canada made enough of a stink about it, we would stop, but it is mutually beneficial so as long as the results are positive, they'll remain calm about it.

[Firetxmi]

This reminds me of a thread where Mexican troops crossed a couple hundred yards into Texas.....

[Atlantic Friend]

I dont see this a too big of a deal, unless Canadian citizens were to start being arrested here and brought to the US without our Government's consent.

Well, it starts with "to hell with Canadian authorizations", so who knows if the next step isn't "to hell with Canadian sovereignty" ? ;)

More seriously, what exactly is achieved here by this violation of procedures that couldn't be achieved through normal channels ?

If it's not a big deal, why not go through proper procedures and ask for Canada's authorization ?

[Hollis]

Well, it starts with "to hell with Canadian authorizations", so who knows if the next step isn't "to hell with Canadian sovereignty" ? ;)

More seriously, what exactly is achieved here by this violation of procedures that couldn't be achieved through normal channels ?

If it's not a big deal, why not go through proper procedures and ask for Canada's authorization ?

OH NO, the French bought in to the domino theory.......

If the Canadians know about it, then it is no big deal, why try to make it something more. Heck red tape could take months. Maybe the RCMP is also working with the FBI. Mutual aid is not a unknown factor here in the states.

As Mudbunny said, it may be seen as mutually beneficial to each country.

[Atlantic Friend]

OH NO, the French bought in to the domino theory.......

If the Canadians know about it, then it is no big deal, why try to make it something more. Heck red tape could take months. Maybe the RCMP is also working with the FBI. Mutual aid is not a unknown factor here in the states.

As Mudbunny said, it may be seen as mutually beneficial to each country.

As a matter of fact I very much believe in the "today Canada, tomorrow the World" theory - but only as long as you can laugh maniacally in a convincing manner after uttering that sentence, that goes without saying.

Yes, maybe these operations are mutually beneficial, but last time I checked being mutually beneficial didn't prevent the use of proper channels. I still fail to see what is achieved without Canadian approval that couldn't be acheived with it.

So yes, you tell me "there's red tape, and that is time-consuming". Yes, it is - administrative procedures always are. But come on, these "clandestine" (for lack of a better word) operations are routine inquiries, it's not as if it was about raiding an Al-Qaeda weapon cache there, so a little red tape should be tolerated. When you put a little oil in the administrative machine, its wheels turn faster. Is that so hard ?

[Hollis]

Atlantic Friend, I don't know what all that is require to for the red tape machine to allow the FBIs to cross the border. May be nothing.

I am not paranoid about the various agencies in the US. I have been to some FBI schools, known several inspectors and have had friends who went the the FBI academy. Sense the later 70's with Hoover being gone, no worries.

They may have permissions. Jurisdictions here can work very close with each other and not require the Pro forma red tape that other may require.

The FBI agents across the border may have very close working relationship with the RCMP. It maybe a convenient working relationship. Maybe all is required is a heads up at some later time.

Personally there are enough Bash the USA in the Canadian government to raise holy hell if there was something "Clandestine" going one. In LE work there are a lot of sensitive investigations that are kept undercover, for very simple reason, they don't want the bad guys knowing about it.

Again the FBI are not the bad guys.. Unless you are doing something you should not be doing.

[Daniel San]

I don't think the question is whether the FBI investigating in Canada benefits both countries. It is rather a matter of diplomatic curteousy to ask the permission of a country when carrying out investigations on its territory, especially when it is for their common good!

[khukuri]

I don't think the question is whether the FBI investigating in Canada benefits both countries. It is rather a matter of diplomatic curteousy to ask the permission of a country when carrying out investigations on its territory, especially when it is for their common good!

not mention that soe failed to get clearence

[Atlantic Friend]

Again the FBI are not the bad guys.. Unless you are doing something you should not be doing.

I'm not saying they are - just that they cross the line when they begin to operate on foreign territory without the consent of the local government. The potential disadvantages of the method outweighs its potential advantages, IMHO.

I don't think the US would be too thrilled to discover, say, that Mexican federales (or other foreign LEOs) routinely venture as far as 50 miles into US territory to operate wihtout US approval - or knowledge.

[California Joe]

I used to know about 15 ways to get into Canada. My Uncle the ex rum runner showed me. We used to go up there and buy beer in high school. Higher alcohol content....p-)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Again the FBI are not the bad guys.. Unless you are doing something you should not be doing.So it would be fair to say that you are very comfortable with police officers from other countries conducting investigations without State Dept or / and local LE consent.

[Mr.K]

Now imagine Canada arrests them and acuses them of spying! :)

[Bombtrack]

Yankees go home

[RECON DOC]

They're looking for a secret Poutine recipe.

[Gibby]

I used to know about 15 ways to get into Canada. My Uncle the ex rum runner showed me. We used to go up there and buy beer in high school. Higher alcohol content....p-)

My first strip club forray took place in Canada, just over the border(Windsor). We were wee ones. That trip we learned of the great injustice of the cover charge. The $20 cover charge to be exact.

Seriously though. I get the impression that the red tape in Canada when it comes to us paticularly, would be staggering.

[Hollis]

So it would be fair to say that you are very comfortable with police officers from other countries conducting investigations without State Dept or / and local LE consent.


Ever heard of INTERPOL........

There are formal and informal consent. the negative people posting are ASSUMING.... there is no consent, formal or informal, no working arrangement, and that Canada has forbidden it.

Bacc, I what ever........ Canada is a good neighbor of the US, we share common borders.... I have met RCMPs in the US. I have no problem with them.

Also LOOK at range of operation, It is not like the RCMPs are in San Diego Calif. or the FBIs are in the all over Canada.


Funny thing is the people bitching the most are not even Canadains.

[StukaJr]

There is an episode of Twin Peaks about that...

[Yoman]

As long as they are not arresting people here I have no problem with it. As long as we can do that same with them.

[Firetxmi]

I guess as long as they are not arresting people, and we allow the same informal courtesy to them then its somewhat fair. Although think of the pandoras box this could open....

Think of if we are doing the same in Mexico... We might have to let them come here and do their own thing (within 50 miles)... Oh lord...

[name already taken]

I used to know about 15 ways to get into Canada. My Uncle the ex rum runner showed me. We used to go up there and buy beer in high school. Higher alcohol content....p-)

In Canada alcohol content is calculated by volume and in the States it is calculated by weight. Since alcohol has less density than water, a 5% american beer makes a 4% Canadian beer.

I don't mind clandestine visitors tasting our beer, in fact we would not mind an invasion of them, but I have a little something about clandestine FBI agents coming here for my own good.

Suppose they were terrorists ?

When the British Navy has a couple ships open for visit in the Old Port in Montreal, there's always a couple of Canadian MPs doing nothing in the area. And we have the same Queen as those British friends on our quarters.

[newb]

There is an episode of Twin Peaks about that...

LOL! did Cooper ever get into Canada? wasn't it that one of the bad guys with French sounding name was Canaian?

[Holmer]

Would they be allowed to carry firearms across the border


Normally NO...however, US police forces are routinely permitted to carry/transport firearms into Canada for various reasons...they only need a letter of permission from the CPFO (chief provincial firearms officer) to do so. I would doubt they would get permission to carry while conducting FBI type of investigations on Canadian soil.


As long as they are not arresting people here I have no problem with it. As long as we can do that same with them.


Basically, they would never be able to do so as a FBI Agent...however, some US LEOs are kinda of deputised as Canadian Officers and are recognized the same as their Canadian counterparts while on Canadian soil. Examples of this are some US Wildlife and Conservation Officers. I believe New York State and Maine have a reciprocal agreement with Ontario and some east coast provinces.

[Hollis]

Normally NO...however, US police forces are routinely permitted to carry/transport firearms into Canada for various reasons...they only need a letter of permission from the CPFO (chief provincial firearms officer) to do so. I would doubt they would get permission to carry while conducting FBI type of investigations on Canadian soil.




Basically, they would never be able to do so as a FBI Agent...however, some US LEOs are kinda of deputised as Canadian Officers and are recognized the same as their Canadian counterparts while on Canadian soil. Examples of this are some US Wildlife and Conservation Officers. I believe New York State and Maine have a reciprocal agreement with Ontario and some east coast provinces.


Holmer thanks for adding that information especially for the cronic "USA is completely Evil" crowd.

[CanuckZ]

Would they be allowed to carry firearms across the border

Canada has very restrictive gun laws that do not apply to foreign operatives. Go figure.

[Paul in Saudi2]

Well, as long as they don't arrest Canadians and hand them over to another country for torture.

[CanuckZ]

Think about where you are dude...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/sampson/

[California Joe]

In Canada alcohol content is calculated by volume and in the States it is calculated by weight. Since alcohol has less density than water, a 5% american beer makes a 4% Canadian beer.

I don't mind clandestine visitors tasting our beer, in fact we would not mind an invasion of them, but I have a little something about clandestine FBI agents coming here for my own good.

Suppose they were terrorists ?

When the British Navy has a couple ships open for visit in the Old Port in Montreal, there's always a couple of Canadian MPs doing nothing in the area. And we have the same Queen as those British friends on our quarters.

I agree with you. I think it's just bad manners. It's not a way you treat friends and longtime allies.

[Holmer]

The real truth is this is minor crap blown up by the media and I would guess it is routine in nature for both sides. I have seen Border Patrol marine officers in CDN territorial waters and I know officers from my agency routinely go incognito into the US. Are they conducting clandestine operations? No....they are simply trying to get bad guys.

Any agent wanting or needing to conduct operations on CDN soil need and should get permission to conduct LEO type of operations while on the north side. But if an agent omits the permission stage and wants to do a residential drive-by for intell...I would gather any border officer or RCMP officer could care very little. The end result is to get the bad guy. Now if they were keeping secret files on different political figures that could be a problem...unless of course they are those nasty liberal politicians....then I say go for it.

[name already taken]

FBI agents slip into Canada without approval: report

Last Updated: Thursday, October 5, 2006 | 8:12 AM ET

CBC News (http://www.cbc.ca/news/credit.html)


An internal FBI audit shows that U.S. agents carry out investigations in Canada, often without the knowledge or approval of the Canadian government.
The most recent audit by the Federal Bureau of Investigation's inspector general, done in 2004, documents the growth of FBI operations in Canada since 2001.

It says the FBI has given agents in its Buffalo field office clearance to conduct "routine investigations" up to 50 miles into Canadian territory.

It also says that about 30 per cent of FBI agents crossing the border to work in Canada failed to get "country clearance." In other words, they didn't get Canada's approval.
The inspector general's report documents 135 unapproved FBI crossings and says there is no sign the crossings will stop.

Canadian officials say they have made no protest to the U.S. government about FBI agents operating without permission on Canadian soil.
According to the report, the FBI has struggled to keep up with its Canadian workload despite opening two new branch offices. It pursues thousands of leads a year in Canada, far more than in any other country except the United States.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/10/05/fbi-border.html


There are rumors that the Bush "republican" administration would like to build a wall like the one between US and Mexico (Berlin wall ?), between US and Canada. Both sides of the border are protesting, Northern New England: New-York state, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine and Quebec, Ontario, New Brunswick, saying it's going to make local commercial exchanges (aka: strong beer), more difficult and less fluid.

This is probably part of the first throes of this protest and it's no small potatoes.