Anyone here do "practical shooting"?

[Trident-za]

I've been considering doing a handgun "combat" training course for some time.

Pros: better weapon proficiency, more liklihood of having a firearm being useful if it comes to the crunch.

Cons: being associated with idiotic rambo types who WANT to kill people.

After my friend was shot and killed, I gave this a bit more thought - having a weapon (as he did) doesn't help much unless you have sufficient training (static targets are NOT sufficient) and regularly practise the skills. I know that the "practical shooting" sport exists in USA, not sure about South Africa. I did, however, find some combat shooting courses available to the public.

I've pretty much convinced myself it's worth doing (even though I hope like hell it's never necessary to implement the skills).... just curious if any of you practise the "sport" and/or have opinions on this topic.


P.S. I should add that I have no interest in "appearing" to be some hardcore shooter or Rambo dude, I'm only interested in results if it's necessary (please God, no)

[James]

I teach practical shooting (among other things) to the U.S. Military, and it is something I practice quite a bit.

Practice different positions, and use both hands, together and alone. If you are right handed, learn to do everything you need to to operate your firearm with just your left hand.

Just a thought. I hope it goes well for you. Stay safe.

[James]

Oh - invest in a good holster and mag carrier/reload carrier as well.

[Trident-za]

Thank you James.

Since you are on my list of people to "pay attention to", I guess I'd better pay attention :lol:

Damn, the thought of shooting left-handed fills me with dread! I rate myself as an above-average "snap-shooter"..... but I not sure i could hit the sky if I used my left hand :roll: Reality-training is the key, I guess....

[Herrmannek]

If I would have a gun, practical shuting this would be only training I would choose, as far realsitic as possible, with multiple human looking targets moving if available...Target shooting to round targets is senseless.

[Trident-za]

An odd question, but...

I've fired numerous weapons, from assault rifles to anti-tank missles, but the weapon that scares me the most is the old handgun.... it' so small, so easy to point in the wrong direction. And I SERIOUSLY dislike the concept of letting the hammer drop to "safe" a weapon with a round in the chamber! Anyone else feel the same? Or am I just being paranoid?

[Herrmannek]

Buy p7, you can't see hammer there, and when loosing grip striker is slowly decoking to the safe position....

[James]

An odd question, but...

I've fired numerous weapons, from assault rifles to anti-tank missles, but the weapon that scares me the most is the old handgun.... it' so small, so easy to point in the wrong direction. And I SERIOUSLY dislike the concept of letting the hammer drop to "safe" a weapon with a round in the chamber! Anyone else feel the same? Or am I just being paranoid?

If the pistol is DA/SA (Berettas and Sigs, for instance) the safety is more properly called a de-cocking lever. Those pistols were designed in such a way that it is completely safe to use the decocking lever to release the hammer.

I carry a M-1911, which is SA. I carry it with the hammer back and on safe. I would not release the hammer with a round in the chamber on that.

[Trident-za]

OK, my weapon is DA... iguess it's just the THOUGHT of dropping the hammer which scares me......

BTW, I still find my fear really odd.... I've never been nervous of a weapon before this. I prefer carrying it with a round in the chamber, hammer down, but I always "put" in the weapon in this state on a firing range with the weapon facing forward, "just in case" :lol:

[James]

If you don't mind my asking, what kind of pistol do you have?

[Trident-za]

It's a CZ 83, 9mm "short".

The reason I chose it is: it "fit" my hand :) I fired a number of hand guns in testing, and this weapon felt best. I know it has less stopping power than a .45 or 9mm, but I figured a gun I was confident of hitting the bad guy with was worth more than a "cannon" I wasn't sure I'd hit with...

[ibstolidude]

I teach practical shooting (among other things) to the U.S. Military, and it is something I practice quite a bit.

Practice different positions, and use both hands, together and alone. If you are right handed, learn to do everything you need to to operate your firearm with just your left hand.

Just a thought. I hope it goes well for you. Stay safe.

Practice drawing with both hands form the position you will normally carry. Don't spend your life on it but be sure you can do it.

practice weapon retention and shooting from anchor point while protecting yourself.

BALL AND DUMMY w/ a buddy.

[Beowulf]

You have the right attitude. You don't ever want to have to use those skills, but it's good to be able to if the need arises.

You carry for the "what if" you should have the training that goes with it.

[csqnsas]

James?

Do you do one-handed shooting. load, chamber a round and fire with only one hand?


i.e. reload and recock(of course you don't need to recock) but can you with one hand?

[ibstolidude]

You have the right attitude. You don't ever want to have to use those skills, but it's good to be able to if the need arises.

You carry for the "what if" you should have the training that goes with it.
and don't forget to add the "Beowulf Gansta Gat" -
1) remove shirt
2) put on gold fronts
3) play "boys in the hood"
4) place weapon over head and slightly forward / just within the top of your field of view when normaly looking forward
5) can weapon 90 degress to right or left (to the inside of body)
6) empty clip - pushing weapon forward as you squeeze trigger to "compensate"
7) say "sup' now foow"
8) crack open the 40 and give a spill for the homies.

[Maine Finn]

You have the right attitude. You don't ever want to have to use those skills, but it's good to be able to if the need arises.

You carry for the "what if" you should have the training that goes with it.
and don't forget to add the "Beowulf Gansta Gat" -
1) remove shirt
2) put on gold fronts
3) play "boys in the hood"
4) place weapon over head and slightly forward / just within the top of your field of view when normaly looking forward
5) can weapon 90 degress to right or left (to the inside of body)
6) empty clip - pushing weapon forward as you squeeze trigger to "compensate"
7) say "sup' now foow"
8) crack open the 40 and give a spill for the homies.


rofl

[Flagg]

And I SERIOUSLY dislike the concept of letting the hammer drop to "safe" a weapon with a round in the chamber! Anyone else feel the same?

Definitely.....I was just using a Sig 226 last week and the decocking lever(as James identified) is an excellent design feature. I think it just takes a bit of getting used to using it.


Or am I just being paranoid?

I'm with you......you can never be too paranoid...and you can never afford to become complacent around firearms.

When using the decocking lever of the Sig I still point it downrange/towards the ground/etc., just to be "sure"..although I'm familiar with the design of the lever....I still can't allow myself to completey trust it ;)

You mentioned your lower comfort level with handguns as opposed to rifles or support weapons...I noticed it here in NZ as well.

In NZ, civilian handgun licenses/permits are not nearly as common as rifle permits...the average Joe Bloggs(guys and girls) seem quite comfortable with rifles...but handguns seem to carry a "dangerous" vibe to many here(even permitted handgun holders must keep handguns at gun club....not the home), in my opinion.

Trident, any possibility of contacting through your army "bro network" any current or ex-SADF personnel offering tactical handgun training?

It sounds like I'm in the same boat as you......experienced handgun target shooter, but not practical shooter.

If James is willing to share in an open forum(and I understand he could potentially be reluctant with some of our audience), I'd be keen to learn some of his practical shooting "best practices".

[Flagg]

and don't forget to add the "Beowulf Gansta Gat" -
1) remove shirt
2) put on gold fronts
3) play "boys in the hood"
4) place weapon over head and slightly forward / just within the top of your field of view when normaly looking forward
5) can weapon 90 degress to right or left (to the inside of body)
6) empty clip - pushing weapon forward as you squeeze trigger to "compensate"
7) say "sup' now foow"
8) crack open the 40 and give a spill for the homies.

Thanks ibstoli...EXACTLY the best practices I was looking for!

But I think you forgot #9, make sure yo' biggie big baggie pants is hangin' roun' yo' ankles

[Trident-za]

This is turing into a really great thread - thanks guys for all the replies.

Flagg, I've found a combat hand-gun course done by an ex-SADF, ex-SAP (the police), ex-bodyguard type (he was at one point a bodbyguard for Nelson Mandela I believe). Dunno how much use it will be for you, NZ is a seriously looooong swim from SA :)

http://home.mweb.co.za/do/dongold/flashpoint.htm

P.S. For anyone who explores the site and see's his pictures - he is now pretty damn old, and seriously out of shape. As I understand it, his son has taken over most of the training (the son is ex- police "Task Force", I believe - for those who know what I'm talking about - enuff said)

[Trident-za]

What happens on the street? Due to the powerful "magnetic pull" of the SNS during the fight-or-flight response, the subject's wide eyes stay glued to the threat, unable to be torn away to focus on the front sight. Simultaneously, his body is forced to face the attacker squarely in a low crouch (which instantly destroys the carefully maintained platform taught by his instructor). His hands become fumble-fingered and clumsy, making trigger-squeeze impossible. because he is not accustomed to shooting in this (natural) condition, his shots go wide. Another throw-away cop bites the dust...

It is true that unnatural methods can be reinforced if trained & practiced long enough on a regular basis by special forces personnel and firearm enthusiasts but we as trainers are mainly dealing with ordinary citizens and uniformed street cops.

Besides, it is more probable that a subject trained in "unnatural" methods would attempt to revert to his training in a violent confrontation but his performance would not be efficient due to the "magnetic pull" of the SNS.

We therefore need to teach skills that are as unperishable as possible. As we all know, the natural instincts that have been with us for millions of years are unperishable.

Nature does it all. Her only requirement is that we align the manmade tool with our instincts and keep it aligned!

Exclusively teaching sighted fire to promote defensive performance is a futile attempt to "de-nature" nature!




The above makes a lot of sense to me.

[Flagg]

I had a browse on the site and, from what little I know, it seems quite sensible.

The gyst I get of it is:

Eliminate all non-essential "target shooting" actions

Treat the weapon almost like a garden hose.....point it, shoot it....since your target is likely very close

At least that's my take on it.......

[Beowulf]

You have the right attitude. You don't ever want to have to use those skills, but it's good to be able to if the need arises.

You carry for the "what if" you should have the training that goes with it.
and don't forget to add the "Beowulf Gansta Gat" -
1) remove shirt
2) put on gold fronts
3) play "boys in the hood"
4) place weapon over head and slightly forward / just within the top of your field of view when normaly looking forward
5) can weapon 90 degress to right or left (to the inside of body)
6) empty clip - pushing weapon forward as you squeeze trigger to "compensate"
7) say "sup' now foow"
8) crack open the 40 and give a spill for the homies.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid110/p25a31f53a12207ed53763986b1f215f5/f915db38.jpg

wussup foo

[wyrm_142]

and don't forget to add the "Beowulf Gansta Gat" -
1) remove shirt
2) put on gold fronts
3) play "boys in the hood"
4) place weapon over head and slightly forward / just within the top of your field of view when normaly looking forward
5) can weapon 90 degress to right or left (to the inside of body)
6) empty clip - pushing weapon forward as you squeeze trigger to "compensate"
7) say "sup' now foow"
8) crack open the 40 and give a spill for the homies.

I've shot both AK's and 12G shotguns from the hip, yet I have no desire to try and shoot like a homie.

On the bit about decocking levers - my father who shot 1911's as his sole semi auto sidearm, took quite a bit of proding to use the decocker lever on my USP's.

[Beowulf]

my f-in pic won't work...damnit

[mocking_loudly_died]

my f-in pic won't work...damnit

I can see it gangster g.

[Beowulf]

sweet

[Flagg]

Yo Yo Yo, Beo's in da Hoooooooooooooooooouse!

Ya know wha I'm sayin'?

[James]

James?

Do you do one-handed shooting. load, chamber a round and fire with only one hand?


i.e. reload and recock(of course you don't need to recock) but can you with one hand?

Yes. A while back I went through a course where I was required to do everything with my strong hand (right for me) tucked in the back of my belt. It took some getting used to, but it is possible. THe idea behind it is that if you are right handed, and for some reason lose the use of that arm or hand (getting shot for instance) you are able to stay in the fight.

[James]

You have the right attitude. You don't ever want to have to use those skills, but it's good to be able to if the need arises.

You carry for the "what if" you should have the training that goes with it.
and don't forget to add the "Beowulf Gansta Gat" -
1) remove shirt
2) put on gold fronts
3) play "boys in the hood"
4) place weapon over head and slightly forward / just within the top of your field of view when normaly looking forward
5) can weapon 90 degress to right or left (to the inside of body)
6) empty clip - pushing weapon forward as you squeeze trigger to "compensate"
7) say "sup' now foow"
8) crack open the 40 and give a spill for the homies.

Fo shizzle.

[James]

What happens on the street? Due to the powerful "magnetic pull" of the SNS during the fight-or-flight response, the subject's wide eyes stay glued to the threat, unable to be torn away to focus on the front sight. Simultaneously, his body is forced to face the attacker squarely in a low crouch (which instantly destroys the carefully maintained platform taught by his instructor). His hands become fumble-fingered and clumsy, making trigger-squeeze impossible. because he is not accustomed to shooting in this (natural) condition, his shots go wide. Another throw-away cop bites the dust...

It is true that unnatural methods can be reinforced if trained & practiced long enough on a regular basis by special forces personnel and firearm enthusiasts but we as trainers are mainly dealing with ordinary citizens and uniformed street cops.

Besides, it is more probable that a subject trained in "unnatural" methods would attempt to revert to his training in a violent confrontation but his performance would not be efficient due to the "magnetic pull" of the SNS.

We therefore need to teach skills that are as unperishable as possible. As we all know, the natural instincts that have been with us for millions of years are unperishable.

Nature does it all. Her only requirement is that we align the manmade tool with our instincts and keep it aligned!

Exclusively teaching sighted fire to promote defensive performance is a futile attempt to "de-nature" nature!




The above makes a lot of sense to me.

Definitely. Basic marksmanship is great, but it is only a platform on which to build. Learn the basics, then learn some more advanced techniques, then practice, practice, practice. Shooting is a perishable skill.