J.Carter suggests recent NK nuke test is Bush's fault

[fantomas]

what a scumbag. a gutless, pathetic failure, blames Bush and his policies on NK nuke test.


from nytimes

Solving the Korean Stalemate, One Step at a Time



By JIMMY CARTER
Published: October 11, 2006
ATLANTA
IN 1994 the North Koreans expelled inspectors of the International Atomic Energy Agency and were threatening to process spent nuclear fuel into plutonium, giving them the ability to produce nuclear weapons.
With the risk of war on the Korean Peninsula, there was a consensus that the forces of South Korea and the United States could overwhelmingly defeat North Korea. But it was also known that North Korea could quickly launch more than 20,000 shells and missiles into nearby Seoul. The American commander in South Korea, Gen. Gary Luck, estimated that total casualties would far exceed those of the Korean War.
Responding to an invitation from President Kim Il-sung of North Korea, and with the approval of President Bill Clinton, I went to Pyongyang and negotiated an agreement under which North Korea would cease its nuclear program at Yongbyon and permit inspectors from the atomic agency to return to the site to assure that the spent fuel was not reprocessed. It was also agreed that direct talks would be held between the two Koreas.
The spent fuel (estimated to be adequate for a half-dozen bombs) continued to be monitored, and extensive bilateral discussions were held. The United States assured the North Koreans that there would be no military threat to them, that it would supply fuel oil to replace the lost nuclear power and that it would help build two modern atomic power plants, with their fuel rods and operation to be monitored by international inspectors. The summit talks resulted in South Korean President Kim Dae-jung earning the 2000 Nobel Peace Prize for his successful efforts to ease tensions on the peninsula.
But beginning in 2002, the United States branded North Korea as part of an axis of evil, threatened military action, ended the shipments of fuel oil and the construction of nuclear power plants and refused to consider further bilateral talks. In their discussions with me at this time, North Korean spokesmen seemed convinced that the American positions posed a serious danger to their country and to its political regime.
Responding in its ill-advised but predictable way, Pyongyang withdrew from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, expelled atomic energy agency inspectors, resumed processing fuel rods and began developing nuclear explosive devices.
Six-nation talks finally concluded in an agreement last September that called for North Korea to abandon all nuclear weapons and existing nuclear programs and for the United States and North Korea to respect each other’s sovereignty, exist peacefully together and take steps to normalize relations. Each side subsequently claimed that the other had violated the agreement. The United States imposed severe financial sanctions and Pyongyang adopted the deeply troubling nuclear option.
The current military situation is similar but worse than it was a decade ago: we can still destroy North Korea’s army, but if we do it is likely to result in many more than a million South Korean and American casualties.
If and when it is confirmed that the recent explosion in North Korea was nuclear, the international community will once again be faced with difficult choices.
One option, the most likely one, is to try to force Pyongyang’s leaders to abandon their nuclear program with military threats and a further tightening of the embargoes, increasing the suffering of its already starving people. Two important facts must be faced: Kim Jong-il and his military leaders have proven themselves almost impervious to outside pressure, and both China and South Korea have shown that they are reluctant to destabilize the regime. This approach is also more likely to stimulate further nuclear weapons activity.
The other option is to make an effort to put into effect the September denuclearization agreement, which the North Koreans still maintain is feasible. The simple framework for a step-by-step agreement exists, with the United States giving a firm and direct statement of no hostile intent, and moving toward normal relations if North Korea forgoes any further nuclear weapons program and remains at peace with its neighbors. Each element would have to be confirmed by mutual actions combined with unimpeded international inspections.
Although a small nuclear test is a far cry from even a crude deliverable bomb, this second option has become even more difficult now, but it is unlikely that the North Koreans will back down unless the United States meets this basic demand. Washington’s pledge of no direct talks could be finessed through secret discussions with a trusted emissary like former Secretary of State Jim Baker, who earlier this week said, “It’s not appeasement to talk to your enemies.”
What must be avoided is to leave a beleaguered nuclear nation convinced that it is permanently excluded from the international community, its existence threatened, its people suffering horrible deprivation and its hard-liners in total control of military and political policy.
Jimmy Carter, the 39th president, is the founder of the Carter Center and the winner of the 2002 Nobel Peace Prize.

[nullterm]

What in the article wasn't true?

[SOG]

actually it was as funny as hell, i saw clintons appointee who handled north korea (or the lack of) on cnn yesterday mouthing that bush was failing to handle this on every level. then they asked this asshat who is a congressman in some state how he would handle it. he stated the north korean leader kim is misunderstood and feels lonely/isolated and we need to work with kim. im sorry a asshole who starves his people and ruthelessly runs them in a police state is ****ing misunderstood and needs to be coddled? are you kidding!? enough of the ****ing liberal "everyone is a victim" game. that worked out really great in california assholes!

[fantomas]

What in the article wasn't true?

the basic fact that lil kim isnt building nukes because he's now officially in the 'axis of evil'. he was building them when bubba clinton was busy cuddling and offering him food and fuel aid. carter is gutless piece of sh.t

[SOG]

What in the article wasn't true?

the Option A, Otopion B etc are thoughtfull thinking but more or less conjecture since this could pan out 100 hundred ways to sunday.

the half of the article which was conjecture on how a war would play out, how to handle the situation, you know, the commentary that subletely takes carefully aimed shots at the opposing admin while outlining "we have the answer" mentality. this is commonly used as a "i told you so" when anyone from an opposing party formulates one of a dozen thesis's and it pans out. thus the same sided party claims they were right all along and other articles showing how wrong and confused they were misteriously start vanishing from thier websites.


in otherwords, politics.

[HOLLiS]

Jimmy Carter and Al Gore has both agreed that Global warming was Bush's fault. Also they did a study and found out the leading cause geeks could not get dates with super hot chicks was Bush's fault too.

CNN report thats a two car accident on I-5 was Bush's Fault.

[Geezah]

If the Clinton Adminstration took care of the NK problem, then why is it still a problem??????

[nullterm]

I realise there's some really passionate Republicans on the forum, so I'll try to tread lightly. :)

There's an old saying, "It's not your fault, but it is your problem."

The fault really lies with Kim Jong Il. Clinton and Bush aren't forcing North Korea to pursue a nuclear program. That said, the responsibility for dealing with the situation does fall to the domain of president.

During Clinton's administration, the situation was eased... but not fixed. By all accounts, North Korea didn't perform a nuclear bomb test and working towards building stockpiles.

During Bush's administration, the situation very clearly worsened. North Korea openly resumed its nuclear weapon program and has now apparently tested one. Clinton has already been out of office for 6 years now. Naming the North as an "axis of evil" didn't make them decide to pursue nukes. But it did marginalize them alone into a corner. The regime is worried about it's own ability to maintain its power, so it went about dusting off the old saber to rattle it around for some attention.

So just looking at the timeline, it does seem that the situation developing does fall under Bush's responsibility. But the stakes are now higher that the test has occured. The threat is a military arms race in the region between North Korea, South Korea, Japan and China.

Now that NK has a nuke, Japan must now be thinking about bulking up it's military because the crazy dictator next door has already fired test missiles past their home.

China doesn't like a militarized Japan because they want to be the dominant military power in the region. They also don't want North Korean refugees flooding over the border if the regime collapses.

South Korea doesn't want an armed invasion or military attack against the North, because that will mean massive amount of artillery fired over the border killing scores of innocent South Koreans.

Bush has the same options that Clinton had, which comes down to diplomacy combined with other options, only the stakes are now much higher. And for all the Clinton blaming, I don't think that Bush fixed the situation either. In fact he just fanned the flames.

[Geezah]

The fault really lies with Kim Jong Il.

Exactly, NK is saying that if more sanctions are imposed they will get really really angry. Ok, they just tested a friggin nuke(or so they say), why, because we won't agree to one on one talks. Why should we, any talks should involve those that are affected the most by these a-holes, the people that have to live around them.
The only reason they want one on one talks is so they can thumb their noses at us, and turn tail and say kiss my arse.
All we hear from them constantly are threats as to how they will make us pay. It gets old.


Bush has the same options that Clinton had, which comes down to diplomacy combined with other options, only the stakes are now much higher. And for all the Clinton blaming, I don't think that Bush fixed the situation either. In fact he just fanned the flames.

In this case diplomacy did not work, it did not work during Clinton's time and will not work now or when Bush is no longer in office. The only thing it does is buy us some time, which does us no good as we all know where this will end up.

[nullterm]

Exactly, NK is saying that if more sanctions are imposed they will get really really angry. Ok, they just tested a friggin nuke(or so they say), why, because we won't agree to one on one talks. Why should we, any talks should involve those that are affected the most by these a-holes, the people that have to live around them.
The only reason they want one on one talks is so they can thumb their noses at us, and turn tail and say kiss my arse.
All we hear from them constantly are threats as to how they will make us pay. It gets old.



In this case diplomacy did not work, it did not work during Clinton's time and will not work now or when Bush is no longer in office. The only thing it does is buy us some time, which does us no good as we all know where this will end up.

I'd rather have that time than thousands of tubes firing Southward. During that bought time, more options could come up and possibly a resolution to fix the situation. Something that Bush didn't pursue during his 6 years till now.

What are the other options, other than diplomacy? The country is already strangled to poverty by sanctions. China already said that the noose is so tight, adding more won't make much of a difference.

Blockading might be an option, but it is very near an act of war. I don't know how the regime would react.

If the regime cared about the North Korean people, I think there would be more options available. But because they are so strongly self-interested, it doesn't leave many options.

I'm honestly hoping that China is the one that can help stabilize the situation. They have the best relationship with the North, but it's still not all roses.

[Angel]

Jimmy Carter and Al Gore has both agreed that Global warming was Bush's fault. Also they did a study and found out the leading cause geeks could not get dates with super hot chicks was Bush's fault too.

CNN report thats a two car accident on I-5 was Bush's Fault.

The grade on my Statistics test is his fault as well...

[MaydayJohnson]

theyve lost their minds dont believe a word

[WARPIG]

What in the article wasn't true?

Where are them missing facts?

Humanitarian aid sent to North Korea, ( a governement vehemently opposed to outside influence or help) is traded on the black market by the military, is allocated to citizens that the DPR deam "useful," is hampered so significantly by DPR intervention that many Humanitarian organizations discontinue programs.

Signing the "carter" agreement and then turning around and breaking that agreement.

Oct. 16, 2002, the administration of U.S. President George W. Bush disclosed that North Korea had admitted to having a program to enrich uranium for use in nuclear weapons. With its admission, North Korea, also known as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea or DPRK, abrogated the Agreed Framework signed in 1994 with United States, under which the North Koreans agreed to freeze their nuclear weapons program.

On Dec. 10, 2002, North Korea announced it would restart plutonium production and eject the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) inspectors who monitored North Korea's compliance with the Agreed Framework. On Jan. 10, North Korea withdrew from the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT), an international accord prohibiting the acquisition and proliferation of nuclear weapons.

In 1994, the administration of President Bill Clinton had begun preparations for military action against North Korea when former President Jimmy Carter traveled to North Korea in June and extracted a promise from Kim Jong Il to freeze nuclear production. The Agreed Framework was signed on Oct. 21, 1994.
Shortly after signing the agreement, North Korea began seeking nuclear weapons fuel through uranium enrichment. In the late 1990s, the United States began to receive scattered intelligence reports revealing a North Korean uranium enrichment program. Some evidence points to the existence of this program as early as 1987. This program apparently received new life in 1997 when Pakistan, strapped for cash by U.S. sanctions, began paying for its North Korean missile imports with uranium enrichment technology.

Weird how only partial facts are published as truths.

[c62]

Where are them missing facts?
...[snip]...
Weird how only partial facts are published as truths.
Welcome to Journalism 101. Don't lie per se, just tell only the truth that supports your bias(primarily left), leave the others out.

[WARPIG]

Welcome to Journalism 101. Don't lie per se, just tell only the truth that supports your bias(primarily left), leave the others out.

Don't forget about misdirection and the art of downplaying.

[California Joe]

Then W should have cowboyed the f*ck up and erased that little goofy Roy Orbison wannabe motherf*cker instead of his favorite Sunni. All he did was run his mouth a lot and rattle a sabre or two and give the damned Koreans an excuse to continue what they wanted all along in the eyes of the world. Diplomacy is all about weaseling, lying, ass kissing, threatening, etc...because the only thing that matters in the end is getting what you want. It is also about being patient. ie. the Berlin Wall.....We are not getting what we want in this deal.

[WARPIG]

Yeah.. I am watching the idiotic blame game on the tele right now. No real discussion about coming to a solution or how to deal with it. Some, but it is being drowned out by the idiots like Hannity and Oreilly. Sort of killing the only real media source that Republicans can lean on for "fair and balanced" coverage.

Fine, Bush called the play right, but still can't execute the play.

I've got a brother in Korea right now. I was planning on having him home for Christmas.

[BearInBunnySuit]

I realise there's some really passionate Republicans on the forum, so I'll try to tread lightly. :)

There's an old saying, "It's not your fault, but it is your problem."

The fault really lies with Kim Jong Il. Clinton and Bush aren't forcing North Korea to pursue a nuclear program. That said, the responsibility for dealing with the situation does fall to the domain of president.

During Clinton's administration, the situation was eased... but not fixed. By all accounts, North Korea didn't perform a nuclear bomb test and working towards building stockpiles.

During Bush's administration, the situation very clearly worsened. North Korea openly resumed its nuclear weapon program and has now apparently tested one. Clinton has already been out of office for 6 years now. Naming the North as an "axis of evil" didn't make them decide to pursue nukes. But it did marginalize them alone into a corner. The regime is worried about it's own ability to maintain its power, so it went about dusting off the old saber to rattle it around for some attention.

So just looking at the timeline, it does seem that the situation developing does fall under Bush's responsibility. But the stakes are now higher that the test has occured. The threat is a military arms race in the region between North Korea, South Korea, Japan and China.

Now that NK has a nuke, Japan must now be thinking about bulking up it's military because the crazy dictator next door has already fired test missiles past their home.

China doesn't like a militarized Japan because they want to be the dominant military power in the region. They also don't want North Korean refugees flooding over the border if the regime collapses.

South Korea doesn't want an armed invasion or military attack against the North, because that will mean massive amount of artillery fired over the border killing scores of innocent South Koreans.

Bush has the same options that Clinton had, which comes down to diplomacy combined with other options, only the stakes are now much higher. And for all the Clinton blaming, I don't think that Bush fixed the situation either. In fact he just fanned the flames.

Sorry for repeating the long post but I think it's worth it. Especially the part about it being Jong Il's fault rather than Clinton or Bush.
<<--Insert clapping icon.

[BearInBunnySuit]

Yeah.. I am watching the idiotic blame game on the tele right now. No real discussion about coming to a solution or how to deal with it. Some, but it is being drowned out by the idiots like Hannity and Oreilly. Sort of killing the only real media source that Republicans can lean on for "fair and balanced" coverage.

Fine, Bush called the play right, but still can't execute the play.

I've got a brother in Korea right now. I was planning on having him home for Christmas.

Well, at least he's not in Afghanistan or Iraq and I been to Korea so I know he's in good hands. And don't worry, you will be able to celebrate Christmas with him. I really don't see anything happening on the peninsula aside from a lot of rhetoric and threats going back and forth.

[fantomas]

I really really really hate Fox news, CNN and the rest of the mindless morons chattering away about mindless bull**** instead of doing their job and reporting actual news. american media sucks big time.

[Satellite Weapon]

Welcome to Journalism 101. Don't lie per se, just tell only the truth that supports your bias(primarily left), leave the others out.

mid term elections coming, time for everyone to put a spin on this korea incident

[loganinkosovo]

Send the Peanut-Pecker back over to North Korea to "Fix" the situation like he did last time. He can take Slick Willy with him.

A week after the Clueless Duo start to "Fix" the problem the fat-a$$ed Four-eyed Freak will be testing Neutron bombs.

Carter should go back to pounding nails for the useless.

Every American President when voted out of office has shut the F@ck Up and went off to do other things with the Glaring Exception of these two useless F@ucker. No Class, No Wits, No Balls. That about sums it up.

[fantomas]

Send the Peanut-Pecker back over to North Korea to "Fix" the situation like he did last time. He can take Slick Willy with him.

A week after the Clueless Duo start to "Fix" the problem the fat-a$$ed Four-eyed Freak will be testing Neutron bombs.

Carter should go back to pounding nails for the useless.

Every American President when voted out of office has shut the F@ck Up and went off to do other things with the Glaring Exception of these two useless F@ucker. No Class, No Wits, No Balls. That about sums it up.


absolutely useless. sat for an entire ****ing year doing absolutely nothing when our people got kidnapped by the iranians. to top it off, jimmah is a godamn pacifist. He really believes that ****. Nixon was a Quaker, but cmon, he lived in the real world. Carter actually believed his own bull****

[JKD]

absolutely useless. sat for an entire ****ing year doing absolutely nothing when our people got kidnapped by the iranians.

Having the military attempt an armed rescue is doing absolutely nothing?

[Herrmannek]

I also think Bush should go for NK instead of Iraq. But I know that today not then. NK will be much harder to beat, but rebuilding process and democratisation would be much more easy... on Other hand Iraq was easy to enter but other matters make it realy unstable...

[chauncy republicans]

Having the military attempt an armed rescue is doing absolutely nothing?

Their upset because he did'nt negotiate with the hostage takers like Reagan did.

[Mark Sman]

We are not getting what we want in this deal.

And theirin lies the rub. What do we want?

Basically, nothing from North Korea.

They chose a path June 25, 1950 and haven't come up for air since. All of NK's neighbors, more or less, have changed their path since then. Most of them have done OK or significantly better since 1950.

The US has no interest in violent little egomaniacs with nothing to trade and no will to become part of the real world.

Ignore them. Let them blow themselves up.

Cause the first nuke that flies out of those borders to anywhere will be followed up with a 10 million man Chinese version of regime change.

Yeah, the lips cover the teeth. Until the lips start talking trash that the teeth don't want to get shattered over.

NK needs to STFU. Basically this is not the US's problem.

China created it, armed it (back in the day) and fostered it since. Let them F'in well deal with it.

Not our AOR.

BTW this whole incident represents a significant loss of face to the Chinese. They are not happy. But the Chinese would love to see us drawn into a military action on the Korean peninsula that degrades our reputation and ability in the region.

NEWSFLASH: Not going to happen. NK is still their problem.

[Satellite Weapon]

No link between AQ Khan-N Korea nuke test: Pak http://www.business-standard.com/common/storypage_c.php?leftnm=11&bKeyFlag=IN&autono=16081 "Pakistan deplores the announcement by Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea that it conducted a nuclear test. In our view this is a destabilising development in the region," Foreign Office Spokesperson Tasnim Aslam said.

North Korea nuclear problem created during Clinton era http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2006/10/11/news_opinion/letters/c1b30fedd5e2bb4986257203006f1f10.txt

On whose watch? Three presidents saw North Korea develop bomb http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003300623_korea12.html

Former president Kim Dae-jung on October 11 criticized U.S. policy as being responsible for North Korea’s nuclear test, and urged Washington to hold direct talks with the communist nation. http://www.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_international/163863.html

[budgie]

A lot of people are still trying to pin this on Clinton six years after he left office. Even some in the administration say that it was Clinton's 'all carrots no sticks' approach that encouraged and emboldened Kim.

Well Bush has had six years to clean up whatever mess was perceived in NK and instead he's been running around Iraq like a headless chicken. This mess happened on his watch.

[Geezah]

That's just it, Clinton did not do Sweet FA, so why should Bush follow Clinton's example.

[Clarsachier]

that 'lil Kim just took out some 'regime change' insurance. Good going neocon tough guys - you've really got 'em shaking in their boots. :roll:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/needtoknow/2006/10/bush_made_a_big_mistake.html

The Bush Administration, like it or not, is responsible for this colossal failure of diplomacy. The Bush Administration not only has refused to open up diplomatic talks with North Korea but it is largely responsible for this action in setting a precedent with Iraq. What I mean by this is, aside from any partisan points of view, the UN is regarded as the International Community's voice and diplomat. The UN speaks with the force of the nations of the world behind it and resolved when it works at its best. The Bush Administration chose in 2003 to tell the world and the UN that the US was accountable to no one. The US chose the idea of pre-emptive war in Iraq despite International outrage. Weather one agrees with this or not is really beside the point. The US (the Bush Administration) said it was above the UN and that no one had the right to tell it what it could or could not do. The US has never ever, under any President or Party rule, taken such a brazen position to the world body or the international community. Kofi Annan at the time warned the Bush government of the dangerous precedent it would be setting. The Bush administration not only ignored the Secretary General's warning but defied the Security Council itself. China, Russia, and France are all on the Security Council and despite their objections the US went ahead with the Iraq War based on its pre-emptive strike policy.

[Satellite Weapon]

A lot of people are still trying to pin this on Clinton six years after he left office. Even some in the administration say that it was Clinton's 'all carrots no sticks' approach that encouraged and emboldened Kim.

Well Bush has had six years to clean up whatever mess was perceived in NK and instead he's been running around Iraq like a headless chicken. This mess happened on his watch.

So what can be done to fix this mess ?

[XShipRider]

One option, the most likely one, is to try to force Pyongyang’s leaders to abandon their nuclear program with military threats and a further tightening of the embargoes, increasing the suffering of its already starving people. Two important facts must be faced: Kim Jong-il and his military leaders have proven themselves almost impervious to outside pressure, and both China and South Korea have shown that they are reluctant to destabilize the regime.
(emphasis added by me)

When you, as dictator, and your military leaders claim all the food aid it's
quite easy to be "impervious to outside pressure." Your "starving
people" don't have the stamina to resist or overthrow you. What a
concept!

I do not believe for a second North Korea simply "re-started" processing
fuel rods because Bush labeled them a member of the "axis of evil." Nor
do I think the food, fuel and other aid that was flowing previously was
going to KJI's "starving people." He probably never stopped processing
right under the nose of the UN inspectors.

This guy, like so many others, fattened himself and his military machine
to ensure the masses could not rise up against him.

Frankly, I don't care what happens on the peninsula. If he's got the
bomb and the wherewithall to use it there will be no stopping him. But
wouldn't it be convenient if he could garner enough support worldwide
to blame it all on the US? Or better yet, blame it on that evil George
Bush and Co.?

We need China and Russia on board for any potential plan. They're too
close geographically to ignore or leave out of the process. It's a given
that South Korea and Japan are already engaged.

[Jobu]

If Kim and his cronies are impervious to outside pressure, how exactly is this Bush's fault?

Jimmy Carter, you're still a moron.

[c62]

Think it was more or less stated already but...

It's not Bush or Clinton's fault. The US President(both past and present) can not control what some nut job on the other side of the planet does. Crazy people tend to do crazy things, and short of war there is nothing we can do about it. It wasn't Bush or Clinton's fault that AQ decided to drive some planes into our buildings, it was Osama's fault. He ordered it. Same is true with North Korea. Both Presidents tried two different approaches and neither worked. Clinton tried appeasement(more or less) and Bush tried ignoreing them(more or less), and guess what Bush-haters, they both failed to make even the smallest improvement in the NK situation. Kim Jong is crazy and he will continue to do crazy things no matter who is in the white house(dem or rep).

[dangerclose]

Nothing propels a democrat to prominence than utter failure.

Thank you Jimmy Carter.


You absolutely sucked as president and trusting the north koreans to keep their word? Genius!

[WARPIG]

(emphasis added by me)

When you, as dictator, and your military leaders claim all the food aid it's
quite easy to be "impervious to outside pressure." Your "starving
people" don't have the stamina to resist or overthrow you. What a
concept!

I do not believe for a second North Korea simply "re-started" processing
fuel rods because Bush labeled them a member of the "axis of evil." Nor
do I think the food, fuel and other aid that was flowing previously was
going to KJI's "starving people." He probably never stopped processing
right under the nose of the UN inspectors.

This guy, like so many others, fattened himself and his military machine
to ensure the masses could not rise up against him.

Frankly, I don't care what happens on the peninsula. If he's got the
bomb and the wherewithall to use it there will be no stopping him. But
wouldn't it be convenient if he could garner enough support worldwide
to blame it all on the US? Or better yet, blame it on that evil George
Bush and Co.?

We need China and Russia on board for any potential plan. They're too
close geographically to ignore or leave out of the process. It's a given
that South Korea and Japan are already engaged.

Actually, that is the case here. North Koreas starving masses are not the ones that have recieved the aid. There are more than a few reports from those aid organizations that detail how not only did the DPR retard the ability for the aid personnel to get help where it was needed, but that the aid was seized and mismanaged on a regular basis. Those that have not starved to death are involved in the exodus to China as illegal aliens. Those people are subjected to extraordinary harship and inhumane treatment from both sides.


Jimmy Carter brokered an agreement to stop North Korea's weapons grade processing in 1994. It was later learned that he either never discontinued or simply restarted the programs very soon after the agreement. It has been going on through the latter part of the 90's.

[XShipRider]

Actually, that is the case here. North Koreas starving masses are not the ones that have recieved the aid. There are more than a few reports from those aid organizations that detail how not only did the DPR retard the ability for the aid personnel to get help where it was needed, but that the aid was seized and mismanaged on a regular basis. Those that have not starved to death are involved in the exodus to China as illegal aliens. Those people are subjected to extraordinary harship and inhumane treatment from both sides.


Jimmy Carter brokered an agreement to stop North Korea's weapons grade processing in 1994. It was later learned that he either never discontinued or simply restarted the programs very soon after the agreement. It has been going on through the latter part of the 90's.

I thought that's what I said but I probably didn't word it very well.:)

[Pandy]

It doesn't matter what happened back in the past. Kim doesn't care who was in the white house, he wanted the bomb so he'll have some power in regional issues. If Al Gore was elected president in 2000, he would have the same problem in 2002-2003, and most likely caved into North Korean demands. I don't like Bush one bit, but on this issue, I'm behind him.

[Eddy]

If Al Gore was elected president in 2000, he would have the same problem in 2002-2003, and most likely caved into North Korean demands. I don't like Bush one bit, but on this issue, I'm behind him.

Can you prove that ?

[sferrin]

I really really really hate Fox news, CNN and the rest of the mindless morons chattering away about mindless bull**** instead of doing their job and reporting actual news. american media sucks big time.

As opposed to who? Al Jazeera? The BBC?

[sferrin]

that 'lil Kim just took out some 'regime change' insurance. Good going neocon tough guys - you've really got 'em shaking in their boots. :roll:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/needtoknow/2006/10/bush_made_a_big_mistake.html


What an idiot (not you, the blog writer). How in the hell does it benefit the US to buckle under to blackmail and extortion? That's all it is. You can gold plate the turd and call it "diplomacy" but it still smells like sh!t to me.

[California Joe]

The issue is, we don't need a crazy twat in North Korea having the bomb. Because he's f*cking crazy, duh. Period. Full stop. So the next issue becomes, how do we stop Mr. bouffant hair from getting it? Have some jackass, rattle his cage at every opportunity and proclaim him "evil" in an ignorant southern drawl because everyone that grows up in Kennebunkport Maine has that folksy Texas air about them? Of course. Nice diplomacy. News flash, the North Koreans are not the Democrats and if you f*ck with them they will probably freak the f*ck out and launch nukes at you as opposed to having Joe Lieberman give you a good talking to.

[sferrin]

Can you prove that ?

Can you prove he wouldn't have? Or how 'bout John "my days in Cambodia are seared, SEARED in my brain" Kerry? I shudder to think where we'd be if he'd lied his way into office. People b!tch that we should have taken care of NK instead of Iraq but where would we be today if we had? Well there would still be the oil for food fiasco going and France still selling Iraq weapons. Chances are Iraq and Iran would have found a mutual enemy in the US while we were off fighting a little tinpot dictator. And today we'd have the pacifist left pontificating about Bush's failure in the Middle East and how he should have taken care of it instead of going after a relatively harmless Kim Jong :roll:

[sferrin]

The issue is, we don't need a crazy twat in North Korea having the bomb. Because he's f*cking crazy, duh. Period. Full stop. So the next issue becomes, how do we stop Mr. bouffant hair from getting it? Have some jackass, rattle his cage at every opportunity and proclaim him "evil" in an ignorant southern drawl because everyone that grows up in Kennebunkport Maine has that folksy Texas air about them? Of course. Nice diplomacy. News flash, the North Koreans are not the Democrats and if you f*ck with them they will probably freak the f*ck out and launch nukes at you as opposed to having Joe Lieberman give you a good talking to.

So what would you do buy him off? Yeah that worked for Clinton real good.

[California Joe]

Antagonizing crazy people does not work. Poking a pitbull with a stick to act like you're a tough guy is just plain stupid. He didn't test nukes while Clinton was bullsh*tting him. When are you guys going to get it that Bush may be right but he doesn't have the right to tell retards what to do with their countries. It's goddamned politics, not a "who's the next Charlemagne" contest.

[Geezah]

^Was he in a position to test nukes while Clinton was in the office, after all it's been Kim's goal to go nuclear?

[Will938]

The grade on my Statistics test is his fault as well...

Bush invented the Standard Deviation Formula and gave you a rigged Z-Table. Oh Shi.........

[Will938]

Antagonizing crazy people does not work. Poking a pitbull with a stick to act like you're a tough guy is just plain stupid. He didn't test nukes while Clinton was bullsh*tting him. When are you guys going to get it that Bush may be right but he doesn't have the right to tell retards what to do with their countries. It's goddamned politics, not a "who's the next Charlemagne" contest.

He was too busy assembling them while clinton was in office.

Does anyone have a reasonable plan to get what we want?

[sferrin]

Antagonizing crazy people does not work. Poking a pitbull with a stick to act like you're a tough guy is just plain stupid. He didn't test nukes while Clinton was bullsh*tting him. When are you guys going to get it that Bush may be right but he doesn't have the right to tell retards what to do with their countries. It's goddamned politics, not a "who's the next Charlemagne" contest.

So maybe we just ignore him. I gave some other guy **** for suggesting it but maybe it wasn't such a bad idea. If we acceed to Kim's demands it only encourages him and he still ends up doing whatever he wants anyway only we helped him out by giving him things. Personally I wish we'd kept some of those Mk41s around (the 25 Mt variety). If the pitbull won't stop biting we could always put him to sleep.

[Satellite Weapon]

that 'lil Kim just took out some 'regime change' insurance. Good going neocon tough guys - you've really got 'em shaking in their boots. :roll:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/needtoknow/2006/10/bush_made_a_big_mistake.html


The United Nations Security Council voted 15 to 0 to adopt a resolution that punishes North Korea for a suspected nuclear-bomb test Oct. 9 and demands that the communist nation not conduct any further tests.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=akViVZ9b9UP0&refer=home
The measure bars the sale or transfer of missiles, warships, tanks, attack helicopters and combat aircraft, as well as missile- and nuclear-related goods to the North Korean government. It calls for UN member nations to conduct ``inspection of cargo'' going to or from North Korea.

North Korea says it has successfully carried out a nuclear test, but that does not necessarily mean it is now capable of firing a nuclear bomb at a target

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38106000/jpg/_38106238_jongilap150.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6033577.stm
One of the most complicated parts of the process involves miniaturising a nuclear device so it can fit on a missile.

[budgie]

So what can be done to fix this mess ?

Aaah I have a suggestion and it's going to rattle a few cages but lets be honest there is no military option at this stage.

First why not bombs?
1) Not enough knowledge on which facilities to hit
2) No guarantee it will decapitate the regime
3) The North will incinerate Seoul -even with conventional weapons before they go down
4) Good chance China might step in

The 3rd is a no brainer: South Korea is a vibrant modern economy and like Taiwan a model of democratic freedom in the region. Seoul is also by my estimate, home to about one quarter of the hottest women on the planet. Although the north would lose a confrontation, the damage done to South Korea's and the region's political and ecnomic fabric would be devestating.

The fourth one is somewhat more controversial. China doesn't like Kim but it likes having a nasty little dictatorial buffer state between itself and blatantly free South Korea. Not to mention the US bases in South Korea. propping up Kim's regime is insurance against the near term nuisance of hundreds of thousands of economic refugees fleeing the collapse of the regime to the border region of China. but it is also a longer term guardian against the DMZ moving a few hundred miles north under a unified Korea. They don't want the US on their border.

So how to deal with it? Brace yourselves.

Sanctions. No i mean real ones this time.

Yup, the only weapon that the North truly fears. After seeing Saddam and Milosevic fall, regimes like Iran and N. Korea fear a military regime change. Nuclear weapons and threat of toasting Seoul, Tokyo or Seattle are their insurance against this. But Nuclear weapons cannot prevent an economic meltdown from within. Kim knows this which is why he's always brandished the nuclear card while demanding more aid.

North Korea's economy is already fragile. It is just barely propped up by food and fuel aid from abroad. They make some money off trading drugs, counterfeit money and weapons technology. Still allowing the food aid to get in while strangling off all other forms of income will eventually lead to a collapse. Unfortunately Kim will starve more of his people first, but perhaps the world needs to be ready for that. China will object because they don't want the regime gone altogether, but alone, they probably don't have the altruism to support the state in its entirety.

A properly enforced blockade and other sanctions could conceivably cause the regime to collapse, when people have really had enough. The north won't lash out because war will only hasten its demise. When the troops came for Saddam, he hunkered down and found a hiding place. His army gave up in droves. It's unlikely the North could even convince enough of its starving troops to go on the offensive. I imagine there'd be mass defections.

But trust me, economic power is what the North doesn't have. They need to be hit where they are weakest.

Don't like the sound of that? well option two is a no brainer. The US needs to sit down and have some hard, bilateral talks ( its refusal to commit to talks may have given the regime the time it needs to build a nuclear program). This will involve carrots and sticks. it will involve at some point concessions to China. It may een involve living with a nuclear north.

I don't see any easy way out of this at all, but either forcing a collapse or learning to live with Kim and his weapons are probably the only options on the table. War this time, just won't work.

[WARPIG]

Sanctions are happening. And, per the recent media blurbs, more are coming.

As far as China liking the buffer to keep Koreans from fleeing the economic fall out of a unification.. there are already record numbers of Korean refugees fleeing NK for food. I don't think Koreans would flee to China, other asian countries maybe.. but not China as much.

[Satellite Weapon]

Coulter blame Clinton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMp8GsW_dlo
http://www.youtube.com/v/vMp8GsW_dlo
Malveaux blame Bush
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2NYTU5vs14
http://www.youtube.com/v/f2NYTU5vs14

[TheKiwi]

Can't beleive that I'm agreeing with Budgie, but I am. Sanctions could crush NK - if China goes through with them.

One other thing that would **** over the little dictator (but one we'll never see) would be for the US to completely remove their forces from South Korea (could still have a very strong defense agreement though). NK needs the US forces there to act as an incipient threat, ready to cross the border and march on Pyongyan at a moments notice. Without that immediate threat, it's very hard to justify 50% of you population starving while keeping a million man army on stand-by.

[c62]

Can't beleive that I'm agreeing with Budgie, but I am. Sanctions could crush NK - if China goes through with them.

One other thing that would **** over the little dictator (but one we'll never see) would be for the US to completely remove their forces from South Korea (could still have a very strong defense agreement though). NK needs the US forces there to act as an incipient threat, ready to cross the border and march on Pyongyan at a moments notice. Without that immediate threat, it's very hard to justify 50% of you population starving while keeping a million man army on stand-by.Nice of you to blame the US for Kim Jong's actions. I don't get why people continuely excuse bad behaivor by brutal dictators and place the blame on countries(people) who stand up to bullies. Appeasement has a long and distinguished history of failing completely. Why do people always assume if you can get the bad guy to just like you then he will leave you alone?

[XShipRider]

I have an idea. Let's all blame everyone else while Kim Jong nukes South
Korea. Then we can start the blame game all over again.

[TheKiwi]

Nice of you to blame the US for Kim Jong's actions. I don't get why people continuely excuse bad behaivor by brutal dictators and place the blame on countries(people) who stand up to bullies. Appeasement has a long and distinguished history of failing completely. Why do people always assume if you can get the bad guy to just like you then he will leave you alone?

I don't blame the US for this at all. Far from it. I'm just pointing out the the little dictator is using the US presence as his excuse for spending all his money on NK's armed forces, leaving nothing for food etc etc. Remove that and he'll crap his pants. I'd suggest that if the US even threatened to pull out of South Korea, his first move would be to pull another stunt like this to make them stay.

[Clarsachier]

by the most powerful country on the planet.

There's cause and effect'; it's not exactly 'irrational paranoia' for him to want to want a deterrant.

If this wasn't a major reason he's paying the price of sanctions, embargoes and strained relations with his allies then, what exactly is his motive?

Why wasn't it a response to a valid threat?

So far, I havn't heard any better, logical explaination. But I'm listening.

[c62]

I don't blame the US for this at all. Far from it. I'm just pointing out the the little dictator is using the US presence as his excuse for spending all his money on NK's armed forces, leaving nothing for food etc etc. Remove that and he'll crap his pants. I'd suggest that if the US even threatened to pull out of South Korea, his first move would be to pull another stunt like this to make them stay.
By the same logic we should remove our forces from A-stan. Afterall US presence is the excuse the Talibans are using for attacking. The same with Iraq, postwar Germany, and others. Kim Jong is going to spend all his money on his military, that's what keeps him in power. Remove US forces from the pennisula and there will be reunification, no doubt, the North will most likely overrun the South.

Brutal dictators don't need excuses for doing crazy things. When are you guys going to understand that giveing into to tyranny only encourages more tyranny?

[TheKiwi]

By the same logic we should remove our forces from A-stan. Afterall US presence is the excuse the Talibans are using for attacking. The same with Iraq, postwar Germany, and others. Kim Jong is going to spend all his money on his military, that's what keeps him in power. Remove US forces from the pennisula and there will be reunification, no doubt, the North will most likely overrun the South.

Brutal dictators don't need excuses for doing crazy things. When are you guys going to understand that giveing into to tyranny only encourages more tyranny?

You really arn't getting this are you. Kim Jong lies awake in bed at night, pissing his panties worried that the US will withdraw its troops. What would his population demand if there was no 'threat' of attack from the US? Its not a big celebration thats for sure. More like food and a TV. And when they didn't get it, its Romania all over again, with Kim Jung getting a last ciggie and a blindfold if he's lucky.

The North overrun the South? Highly unlikely. This is not the 1950's, the SK's are proud of their country and what its acheived. They'd fight like tigers for it. They have better kit and a bigger population. If they tried anything like that, they'd go from the 6th biggest army in the world to the 2nd biggest army in Korea in no time.

[Satellite Weapon]

I have an idea. Let's all blame everyone else while Kim Jong nukes South
Korea. Then we can start the blame game all over again.
McCain: "I'd just commit suicide" if Democrats take control of Senate
http://www.radioiowa.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=03E7B0DB-FF7D-4899-91E5B88F33DB97C6&dbtranslator=local.cfm

will Donald do the same ?http://www.bellyfuzz.com/uploaded_images/HaraKiri-Don-746573.jpg

[SnakeBiteLeader]

More posturing by the Democrats (dare I say "fear mongering"?)
This latest test hasn't changed anything but draw attention to the region. Fundamentally, the situation remains as it always was.

[XShipRider]

More posturing by the Democrats (dare I say "fear mongering"?)
This latest test hasn't changed anything but draw attention to the region. Fundamentally, the situation remains as it always was.

You're probably more right than you know.

What bothers me is the usual Washington-think. Namely, they always
look to lay blame rather than fix the darn problem!

[c62]

You really arn't getting this are you. Kim Jong lies awake in bed at night, pissing his panties worried that the US will withdraw its troops. What would his population demand if there was no 'threat' of attack from the US? Its not a big celebration thats for sure. More like food and a TV. And when they didn't get it, its Romania all over again, with Kim Jung getting a last ciggie and a blindfold if he's lucky.

The North overrun the South? Highly unlikely. This is not the 1950's, the SK's are proud of their country and what its acheived. They'd fight like tigers for it. They have better kit and a bigger population. If they tried anything like that, they'd go from the 6th biggest army in the world to the 2nd biggest army in Korea in no time.
(Ok, finally got some time to anwer this) I totally get this, KJ doesn't want us there so he can expand his power/control over the pennisula. His population can demand anything they want at anytime, right up until the tanks start rolling(Tianamenn ring a bell). The army doesn't only defend against external threats, it also protects against internal ones as well. Kim keeps the bread buttered for the military, so the military will keep the populace in line. Kim Jong isn't some misunderstood dictator who will do the right thing as soon as the US allows him to.

I have no doubt the SKs will fight bravely for their country, but I'm looking at it from a numbers game. It will take a while to train recruits. I doubt they will get pushed as far south as the last time, but they will have to absorb a massive blow early on, and Seoul isn't that far from the border.

[Noble713]

I have no doubt the SKs will fight bravely for their country, but I'm looking at it from a numbers game. It will take a while to train recruits. I doubt they will get pushed as far south as the last time, but they will have to absorb a massive blow early on, and Seoul isn't that far from the border.

The SK army is about 3/4ths the size of the NK one, but with the following advantages:

1) Virtually assured air superiority. ROKAF operates some of the most advanced F-15s in the world, nevermind the USAF assets in Japan.

2) Extensive fortifications and seriously rugged and restrictive terrain. Does a number for delaying enemy offensives. I've also heard that many of the passes and bridges leading towards Seoul are rigged with explosives.

3) Qualitative superiority across the board. From training to logistics to C&C. Force multipliers FTW!!!

Take a look at OPLAN 5027:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/oplan-5027.htm

[Satellite Weapon]

(Ok, finally got some time to anwer this) I totally get this, KJ doesn't want us there so he can expand his power/control over the pennisula. His population can demand anything they want at anytime, right up until the tanks start rolling(Tianamenn ring a bell). The army doesn't only defend against external threats, it also protects against internal ones as well. Kim keeps the bread buttered for the military, so the military will keep the populace in line. Kim Jong isn't some misunderstood dictator who will do the right thing as soon as the US allows him to.

I have no doubt the SKs will fight bravely for their country, but I'm looking at it from a numbers game. It will take a while to train recruits. I doubt they will get pushed as far south as the last time, but they will have to absorb a massive blow early on, and Seoul isn't that far from the border. I remember seeing an article before, it of course stated that the US and S.Korean forces would win such a conflict but not without massive losses. Millions of Koreans either injured or dead and a loss of 30,000 US troops in a number of hours. When I first saw this I thought it was a ridiculous statement but the article had some really good points. No matter how these DPRK 'wargames' are played out it never goes well, one problem being Kim's missile and WMD program (biological/nuclear/chemical), another being the proximity of the S.Korean capital Seoul to N.Korea. Back in the 60s the DPRK didn't have any real missile or WMD program and the population of Seoul was only about 2 million. Today there are about 10 million in this vibrant city and with 40% of the Korean people lying so close to the DMZ, which means it the North has the ability to shell Seoul into dust.

[budgie]

The SK army is about 3/4ths the size of the NK one, but with the following advantages:

1) Virtually assured air superiority. ROKAF operates some of the most advanced F-15s in the world, nevermind the USAF assets in Japan.

2) Extensive fortifications and seriously rugged and restrictive terrain. Does a number for delaying enemy offensives. I've also heard that many of the passes and bridges leading towards Seoul are rigged with explosives.

3) Qualitative superiority across the board. From training to logistics to C&C. Force multipliers FTW!!!

Take a look at OPLAN 5027:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/oplan-5027.htm

Also the ROk has a compulsory service system so they have potentially millions of reserves with proper (if basic) training. However I doubt it will come to that. If Sanctions are enforced properly then either one of two things will happen.

a) Kim will cave and give up his programs; or

b) Kim`s regime will collapse - probably in a `palace coup` because he can no longer afford to keep a large priviledged political and military inner circle living in luxury

Kim knos this and his number one priority is protecting his own a$$ so he`ll chose option a. He is extremely unlikely to lash out - after all the best Saddam could do was hunker down, cooperate with inspectors and hope that he wouldn`t get attacked, then and flee town when he did.

Kim doesn`t want to end up like Saddam but he doesn`t want to end up dead either. He`ll make the right choice.

[sferrin]

by the most powerful country on the planet.

There's cause and effect'; it's not exactly 'irrational paranoia' for him to want to want a deterrant.

If this wasn't a major reason he's paying the price of sanctions, embargoes and strained relations with his allies then, what exactly is his motive?

Why wasn't it a response to a valid threat?

So far, I havn't heard any better, logical explaination. But I'm listening.

So was Khadafy (or however you spell his name today) and he saw the light. Now his country is on it's way to much better days. Hell they're even in talks for new French Rafales.

[sferrin]

You're probably more right than you know.

What bothers me is the usual Washington-think. Namely, they always
look to lay blame rather than fix the darn problem!

It's all about votes.

[Clarsachier]

So was Khadafy (or however you spell his name today) and he saw the light. Now his country is on it's way to much better days. Hell they're even in talks for new French Rafales.

So, are your saying that has something to do with the U.S. administration?

Like maybe, Qadaffi frightened scared when Saddam went down? :)

Fear of the U.S.'s might didn't have anything to do with it. It was something Qadaffi respects more than our military, - $$$$$.

I wanted to bring in the point that Bush & cronies don't admit responsibility
for any of their int'l policy mistakes. Yet they try to take credit & imply that Libya's position had something to do with fear of the U.S. admin.

The admin's propaganda machine is very careful to imply that but without actually obviously lying straight out. They were riding the coat tails of the EU's initiative.

[c62]

So, are your saying that has something to do with the U.S. administration?

Like maybe, Qadaffi frightened scared when Saddam went down? :)

Fear of the U.S.'s might didn't have anything to do with it. It was something Qadaffi respects more than our military, - $$$$$.

I wanted to bring in the point that Bush & cronies don't admit responsibility
for any of their int'l policy mistakes. Yet they try to take credit & imply that Libya's position had something to do with fear of the U.S. admin.

The admin's propaganda machine is very careful to imply that but without actually obviously lying straight out. They were riding the coat tails of the EU's initiative.
If it was about $$$$$ as you alledge, why did it just so happen right after Saddam's regime went down. Not before, not long after, a rather strange coincidence if you ask me. Most likely it was a combination of money and timing. Quadaffi realized it time to make changes and decided to make a few bucks along the way.

Noble713, I never said SK would lose, just they'll take a big hit before turning things around. I do believe SK would be victorious in the end for a number of reasons.

[lightcav]

For all the Clinton bashing thats gone around since NK tested a nuke. The simple truth is Bush has been president for 6 years and has done nothing to descalate the NK situation.

At least during Clinton's administration NK didn't test any nukes. People might say that Clinton didn't do anything to stop NK from developing nuclear weapons but we know for sure that Bush hasn't done anything.

All Bush has done is made our military weak in a war we cannot and will never win while making us a big huge target to every deranged psycho beit Iran, NK, or Al qaeda. Everyone hates the US now because of what Bush has done. He is a ****in bull in a china shop.

[SnakeBiteLeader]

For all the Clinton bashing thats gone around since NK tested a nuke. The simple truth is Bush has been president for 6 years and has done nothing to descalate the NK situation.

At least during Clinton's administration NK didn't test any nukes. People might say that Clinton didn't do anything to stop NK from developing nuclear weapons but we know for sure that Bush hasn't done anything.


What would you have done to alleviate tensions in the region/prevent a test?

[lightcav]

What would you have done to alleviate tensions in the region/prevent a test?


Try and find out what North Korea wants. Then start from there. I think that war is not an option because tens of thousands would die. All we really have left is diplomacy. What does NK want? No body ever say's maybe they just want some respect. How much does that cost? Maybe we should find out.

I think we need to develop intimate relations with NK gain their trust, infiltrate their goverment and slowly take it over. I'm pretty sure we could provide them with superior weapons and more food then China or Russia. I think it is an oppurtunity to make a powerful ally and put some pressure on China and Russia for a change.

Maybe Kim Jung Il has a really small penis and all he wants is some playboy bunnies to come over and tell him its huge. We'll never find out if we don't ask.

[XShipRider]

At least during Clinton's administration NK didn't test any nukes. People might say that Clinton didn't do anything to stop NK from developing nuclear weapons but we know for sure that Bush hasn't done anything.

The argument, right or wrong, is that Clinton was the enabler by giving
them the technology. The recent test being the culmination of NK's
techno' leap since that time.

But I digress, Washington needs to fix the problem not lay blame.

[lightcav]

The argument, right or wrong, is that Clinton was the enabler by giving
them the technology. The recent test being the culmination of NK's
techno' leap since that time.

But I digress, Washington needs to fix the problem not lay blame.


How the bleep did Clinton give them the technology? Maybe they are smart enough to develop a nuke on their own. Or maybe they got the technology from China and Russia, nations that talk to them not ignore them. Why hasn't Bush gotten off his lazy ass and done something during the last 6 years he's been in office?

If NK is so evil and Bush is soo tough why doesn't he put his money where his mouth is and do something? Bush is a ****ing pussy.

Do you think we would have invaded Iraq if we knew they had WMD? Hell no because maybe they would use them on us. Thats why we did invade Iraq because we knew they didn't have WMD and we could kick their ass. We just didn't count on the insurgents and civil war. Bush is a ****ing bully and a pussy. He would never confront somebody that is a real threat like NK.

[SnakeBiteLeader]

Try and find out what North Korea wants. Then start from there. I think that war is not an option because tens of thousands would die. All we really have left is diplomacy. What does NK want? No body ever say's maybe they just want some respect. How much does that cost? Maybe we should find out.

I think we need to develop intimate relations with NK gain their trust, infiltrate their goverment and slowly take it over. I'm pretty sure we could provide them with superior weapons and more food then China or Russia. I think it is an oppurtunity to make a powerful ally and put some pressure on China and Russia for a change.

Maybe Kim Jung Il has a really small penis and all he wants is some playboy bunnies to come over and tell him its huge. We'll never find out if we don't ask.


You don't seem to be very well-informed on the topic. Another victim of News Media alarmism, perhaps?

1. Kim wants to survive as the DPRK's leader. He wants his power. But he's also unpredictable, threatening, and a liability. Kim is in a box, or rather at the end of his rope. Due to international pressure he's running out of options fast which is why he's making so much noise lately.
And the fact is, the US can do little in terms of diplomacy because we don't trade with the North. Outside of military force we have very little leverage in the situation.

2. Pull the old switcheroo, eh? How do you think Japan, ROK, and China would feel about that? Not very good, I can tell you that. And considering they are some of our biggest partners, I don't think that would be the wisest of choices.

What you're basically saying that the US ought to cater to Kim's wishes because he has a penchent for making trouble- awarding him for bad behavior. I've said it before, the situation in Korea hasn't really changed-it's just getting more attention than usual.

[lightcav]

The US should use NK's aggressiveness to our advantage and play both sides. China and Japan treat us like **** when it comes to trade. They are more like trade enemies than trade partners. We buy all their crap and they don't by any of ours.

If lil Kim just wants power give it to him and make him point it at China and Japan.

We should tell Kim hey you want tanks and planes and aircraft carriers? Let us set up bases in NK.

[SnakeBiteLeader]

How the bleep did Clinton give them the technology? Maybe they are smart enough to develop a nuke on their own. Or maybe they got the technology from China and Russia, nations that talk to them not ignore them. Why hasn't Bush gotten off his lazy ass and done something during the last 6 years he's been in office?

If NK is so evil and Bush is soo tough why doesn't he put his money where his mouth is and do something? Bush is a ****ing pussy.

Do you think we would have invaded Iraq if we knew they had WMD? Hell no because maybe they would use them on us. Thats why we did invade Iraq because we knew they didn't have WMD and we could kick their ass. We just didn't count on the insurgents and civil war. Bush is a ****ing bully and a pussy. He would never confront somebody that is a real threat like NK.



NK is no threat the US, he's a threat to Japan, the ROK, and China (by proxy). If Bush had "done something" we'd be looking at a situation where there would be casualties bordering on the millions from Seoul to Tokyo. Do you think it's a good idea for the US to be responsible for that?

The North Korean situation will work itself out because Kim is being left with fewer options with every day that passesThe more agitating he does, the less likely it is that he'll get what he needs to stay in power. With this latest test even China has turned it's back on him. I for one would call that progress.
plan is that he'll be deposed and replaced by someone a bit more malleable, and things seem to be right on track.


Your analysis is superficial, at best.

[SnakeBiteLeader]

The US should use NK's aggressiveness to our advantage and play both sides. China and Japan treat us like **** when it comes to trade. They are more like trade enemies than trade partners. We buy all their crap and they don't by any of ours.

If lil Kim just wants power give it to him and make him point it at China and Japan.

We should tell Kim hey you want tanks and planes and aircraft carriers? Let us set up bases in NK.


Oh now you're really making sense.:bash:

[lightcav]

Well, if its true that Kim is on the ropes then we should just let the thing play out and try and reunite the two koreas when he leaves.

[SnakeBiteLeader]

Well, if its true that Kim is on the ropes then we should just let the thing play out and try and reunite the two koreas when he leaves.

Glad to see such a change of heart. Next time educate yourself on the topic before chiming in.

[lightcav]

All I'm saying is that there are many options with NK that haven't been pursued. You might laugh at my thoughts but they are a lot more creative than most. And creativity along with patience as you advocate are the keys to a successful resolution.

[Clarsachier]

Well, if its true that Kim is on the ropes then we should just let the thing play out and try and reunite the two koreas when he leaves.


Exactly what was said about Kim -1.

[SnakeBiteLeader]

All I'm saying is that there are many options with NK that haven't been pursued. You might laugh at my thoughts but they are a lot more creative than most. And creativity along with patience as you advocate are the keys to a successful resolution.


Creativity only counts if it's plausible.

[SnakeBiteLeader]

Exactly what was said about Kim -1.


Different situation. We're talking about a deposition, not a succession.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/dprk/kim-jong-il.htm

[SnakeBiteLeader]

[edit].....................................................

[Satellite Weapon]

Try and find out what North Korea wants. Then start from there. I think that war is not an option because tens of thousands would die. All we really have left is diplomacy. What does NK want? No body ever say's maybe they just want some respect. How much does that cost? Maybe we should find out.

I think we need to develop intimate relations with NK gain their trust, infiltrate their goverment and slowly take it over. I'm pretty sure we could provide them with superior weapons and more food then China or Russia. I think it is an oppurtunity to make a powerful ally and put some pressure on China and Russia for a change.

Maybe Kim Jung Il has a really small penis and all he wants is some playboy bunnies to come over and tell him its huge. We'll never find out if we don't ask.

I don't think their will be trust between the US and North Korea, and a huge problem is Kim Jong Il doesn't want to relinquish his DPRK throne.

[Satellite Weapon]

http://www.youtube.com/v/iChiSbV4aQQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iChiSbV4aQQ

S Korea takes first step on sanctions
http://www.thewest.com.au/aapstory.aspx?StoryName=328492
South Korea announced it would ban the entry of North Koreans who are part of Pyongyang's nuclear weapons program, the first step taken by Seoul to adhere to UN sanctions.
The decision came after North Korea said any action by Seoul under the UN resolution would "drive the inter-Korean relations to a catastrophe" and would be "a grave provocative act" which could lead to war.
US President George W Bush said Pyongyang's threats were aimed only at dividing the five nations that have been in talks with North Korea on ending its nuclear program.

[Satellite Weapon]

http://www.youtube.com/v/D67lpS5mH-s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67lpS5mH-s



South Korea's military is observing movements at a site in North Korea where the communist country is believed to have conducted its first nuclear test, indicating possible preparations for another test, Yonhap news agency reported Saturday.
http://www.forbes.com/business/businesstech/feeds/ap/2006/10/27/ap3127115.html

The report, citing multiple unnamed military officials, said South Korea is closely monitoring movements of trucks and North Korean soldiers at the site in Punggye-ri in the country's remote northeast.

[giggler]

Carter did nothing but buy NK time to slowly inch its way toward the bomb.

[Satellite Weapon]

Second N Korean vessel detained for safety violations http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2006/10/28/2003333736

[9mmRifle]

The argument, right or wrong, is that Clinton was the enabler by giving
them the technology. The recent test being the culmination of NK's
techno' leap since that time.

But I digress, Washington needs to fix the problem not lay blame. very true .

[number nine]

That is gross simplification, nations don't want to be weak and helpless and technologically backward. Only thing problematic is that North Korean nuclear program is military oriented. Keep in mind that making a nuke is less complex endeavor than making a nuclear reactor, so any nation capable of making a nuclear reactor on it's own is also able to make workable nuclear weapon in relatively short time.

If we compare bomb and a reactor, for both you need to initiate fission. In latter case you have to control chain reaction also.

[Satellite Weapon]

North Korea called Japanese officials “political imbeciles” on Saturday for saying they will not accept Pyongyang as a nuclear power, less than a week after the reclusive communist state agreed to return to international arms talks on its atomic program.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/world/20061104-1007-koreas-nuclear.html
In typically harsh rhetoric, North Korea also condemned the United States as “fanatic warmongers who destroy peace and security on the Korean peninsula.”

Pentagon targets Kim’s nuclear sites
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2437937,00.html

[Satellite Weapon]

Carter Says Claim That North Korea Cheated `Completely False' The Bush administration claim that North Korea cheated or reneged on a 1994 agreement with the U.S. to freeze its nuclear program is ``completely false and ridiculous,'' former U.S. President Jimmy Carter said. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=apDsgnbh1Ses&refer=home Carter, a Democrat who helped broker the agreement with the North Koreans on behalf of then-President Bill Clinton, said the pact was ``observed pretty well by both sides'' for eight years.