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Clearday-TRForce
10-12-2006, 07:12 AM
BBC
http://xs107.xs.to/xs107/06414/screencdtrf.jpg.xs.jpg (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs107&d=06414&f=screencdtrf.jpg)


France to vote on 'genocide' law


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42190000/jpg/_42190046_turks.jpg
The French bill has brought strong protests in Turkey

The French parliament is due to vote on a law that would make it a crime to deny that Turkey perpetrated a genocide against Armenians in 1915-17.
Turkey says the law could seriously damage bilateral relations and French businesses fear a trade backlash.

Armenia says Ottoman Turks killed some 1.5m people in a systematic massacre, a claim strongly denied by Turkey.

The law would establish a one-year prison term and 45,000-euro ($56,400) fine for those denying genocide.

Free vote

Turkey has been warning France for weeks not to pass the bill.

Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said on Wednesday: "If this bill is passed, Turkey will not lose anything but France will lose Turkey. [France] will turn into a country that jails people who express their views."

The vote, in the lower house of the French parliament on Thursday morning, has been sponsored by the opposition Socialist party.

The ruling Union for a Popular Movement (UMP) is not backing the law, but has given its deputies a free vote, and analysts say it is likely to pass.

The law would still need the backing of the upper house and President Jacques Chirac, but French businesses are already fearing a backlash in trade with Turkey.

EU enlargement commissioner Olli Rehn said the bill was "counterproductive".

EU membership bid

The BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Istanbul says many Turks are angry at what they see as double standards in the EU, where opinions are sharply divided about Turkey's membership bid.

The official Turkish position states that many Christian Armenians and Muslim Turks died in fighting during World War I - but that there was no genocide.

France's President Chirac and Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy have both said Turkey will have to change that position and recognise the Armenian deaths as genocide before it joins the EU.

Turks argue that while the EU is pressuring Turkey to improve its legislation to ensure full freedom of speech France seems to be moving in the opposite direction.

Turkey's parliament is now considering a law that would make it a crime to deny French killings in Algeria in 1945 as genocide.

But Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan objected, saying: "We are not like those who clean dirt with dirt."

France has about 500,000 people of Armenian descent - thought to be the largest Armenian immigrant community in western Europe.

There are accusations in Turkey that the Armenian diaspora and opponents of Turkey's EU membership bid are using this issue to prevent Turkey joining the 25-member bloc.

The Socialist MP and former minister Jack Lang helped to draft an existing French law which recognises that Armenians suffered genocide in Turkey.

But he told the BBC's World Today programme that the new bill was unnecessary.

"I cannot give my vote to a completely stupid law which will punish somebody who expressed free judgement concerning historical facts. It's not acceptable.

"We have to help Turkey to accept, progressively, what was history. I think that this provocation of the French parliament will not help the consciousness in Turkey," he said.


BBC



France warned over 'genocide' law

A top EU official has urged France not to push ahead with a bill which he says could sour relations between the EU and aspiring member Turkey.
French MPs are due to discuss the bill - which would make it a crime to deny that Turkey perpetrated a genocide against Armenians - on Thursday.

Turkey's foreign minister threatened economic sanctions against France if the bill succeeds.

EU enlargement commissioner Olli Rehn said the bill was "counterproductive".

Mr Rehn warned that the adoption of the draft law would have very severe consequences for discussion of the Armenian question, saying "instead of opening, it will lock the debate in Turkey".

He said nothing was achieved by an ultimatum, and called instead for an open dialogue in Turkey itself, and between Turkey and neighbouring Armenia.

The two countries have a common border, but no diplomatic relations.

Armenians say the Ottoman Turks killed as many as 1.5 million Armenians in a planned genocide in 1915, during World War I.


The Turkish government strongly denies the allegations of genocide, saying many Armenians and Turks died in a conflict raging at that time.

EU entry

Turkish activists protested outside the French consulate in Istanbul on Sunday, while Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan declared the issue was "none of France's business".

Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul warned France could be barred from business projects in Turkey if the bill succeeded. "The French will lose Turkey," he said.

Mr Rehn made clear that recognition of the killings as genocide was not a condition for EU entry.

However French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy said he thought it should be.

He also told France Inter radio that Turkey must meet three conditions for the bill to be dropped, Reuters news agency reported.

He called for a bilateral commission between Armenia and Turkey to discuss their history; for Turkey to reopen its borders with Armenia; and for Ankara to allow discussion of the "genocide" within Turkey.

The bill could be supported by French politicians looking to curry favour with France's large Armenian community, says the BBC's Oana Lungescu in Brussels.

But Mr Sarkozy - who has opposed the idea of Turkey's accession to the EU - has also been accused of trying to stir up anti-Turkish sentiment just as the EU is considering Ankara's progress on harmonisation.

BBC



regards,
CDTRF

Navor
10-12-2006, 07:16 AM
"If this bill is passed, Turkey will not lose anything but France will lose Turkey. [France] will turn into a country that jails people who express their views."

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Tell this to a German Neo Nazi.He would be so happy to deny Jewish Holocaust,because it is his right to express his own opinion.

snark.si
10-12-2006, 07:28 AM
I hope that turkey will never yoin EU

pepito
10-12-2006, 07:48 AM
I hope that turkey will never yoin EU

i hope too

Clearday-TRForce
10-12-2006, 07:50 AM
All Turkish news and tvs show angry face to France. Now There will be a new period beginning.

Hurriyet Online
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_newsimages/2289413.jpg

BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6043730.stm
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40967000/jpg/_40967138_breaking_news_203.jpg

NTVMSNBC
http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/248976.jpg

SABAH
http://www.sabah.com.tr/2006/10/12/im//66536A75EF7887428CE1CDCFb.jpg

LE FIGARO & LE MONDE; We did a terrible mistake.

French International Relations and Strategy Institute Specialist Diddier Billion: This is really unacceptable mistake. How bad.

CNN TURK
http://www.cnnturk.com/images/anasayfa/fransameclis_26t1yeni.jpg


CENGIZ CANDAR IN BUGUN

The draft law is actually a clear sign that "the anti-Turkey rebellion in the EU" has begun. That's why we cannot and must not see today's vote and its results exclusively in terms of relations between Turkey and France. This contains dimensions that can turn into a Turkey-EU issue, and the opposition against Turkey in the EU has begun to present an ugly face.


HASAN CEMAL IN MILLIYET

In Europe there are not only those who want to keep Turkey outside of the EU. There are also those who defend Turkey's EU membership in terms of the contribution it will make to the political, economic and strategic interests of Europe. That is why staying on track and continuing the journey to Europe is certainly to Turkey's benefit.


EMIN COLASAN IN HURRIYET

As long as we keep begging the Europeans on the way towards the EU, many more genocide tales, and many other issues and embarrassing obstacles will be set before us. Those who do not see this are either liars attempting to deceive the nation or the ignorant ready to sell their country to the EU.


MEHMET ALI BIRAND IN POSTA

Let us not provoke those Turkish people who cannot control their reactions. Let us tell France to "stop" but do that within civilised limits. Let us not humiliate ourselves nor incite xenophobia in Turkey.


OKTAY EKSI IN HURRIYET

We stress that France is a disgrace to the civilised world. However, it is a precondition for Turkey, which tells others that "what you are doing is shameful in terms of freedom of expression" first of all to get rid of its own sources of shame.


ILHAN SELCUK IN CUMHURIYET

France is not alone in this move. The West has changed towards Turkey! If France punishes those who say that "there was no Armenian genocide" it will be a shameful historical document and permit us to perceive the new realities of the world.


SAHIN ALPAY IN ZAMAN

Ankara is getting ready to retaliate against France if it turns the denial of the "Armenian Genocide" into a crime. Even if we assume that the EU politicians and elites are not so stupid as to take steps that will push Turkey away from Europe, it seems inevitable that Turkey-EU relations will go through a tense period in the future.

French Government's Rejection Fails, Bill Accepted
http://www.zaman.com/2006/10/12/parliament2_b.jpg

MILLIYET
http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2006/10/12/resim/akapak122953.jpg

AA NEWS
Shame On you France!!! (http://www.aa.com.tr)

YENISAFAK
http://www.yenisafak.com/resim/manset/fransa_parlamentosu1_mns0d809a710d7795ce.jpg

STAR
http://www.stargazete.com/starextra/resimler/dunya/fransiz_meclis008.jpg



http://galeri.milliyet.com.tr/2006/10/12Protestolar_dunyaya_boyle_yansidi/16.jpg
http://galeri.milliyet.com.tr/2006/10/12Protestolar_dunyaya_boyle_yansidi/9.jpg
http://galeri.milliyet.com.tr/2006/10/12Protestolar_dunyaya_boyle_yansidi/6.jpg
http://galeri.milliyet.com.tr/2006/10/12Protestolar_dunyaya_boyle_yansidi/1.jpg

Chimera
10-12-2006, 07:51 AM
Clearday, I hope that now you will understand we don't want Turkey to join UE.

Concerning the boycott of french companies and products, ... the last country that tried to do it, was the US in 2003. And they just failed because of one thing: globalization.

Clearday-TRForce
10-12-2006, 07:55 AM
Clearday, I hope that now you will understand we don't want Turkey to join UE.

Concerning the boycott of french companies and products, ... the last country that tried to do it, was the US in 2003. And they just failed because of one thing: globalization.


I see...But you made a very bad mistake. You will see it at the end of this game. You forcibly try to bloke a country with using armenian people's feelings. And I very much now, you dont care armenians but you really care Turks and afraid to see us into heart of EU. It is not very important and yeah it is a global world and you will increasingly see the Turks into every part of Europe. You can not make something.

MG 3
10-12-2006, 08:06 AM
French in Armenia 'genocide' row


French in Armenia 'genocide' row

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42190000/jpg/_42190046_turks.jpg The French bill has brought strong protests in Turkey

The French parliament has adopted a bill making it a crime to deny that Armenians suffered "genocide" at the hands of the Turks, infuriating Turkey.
The bill, which would make genocide denial punishable by a year in jail and a 45,000-euro ($56,400) fine, will now be passed to the Senate and president.
Turkey has threatened to retaliate with economic sanctions against France.
Armenia says Ottoman Turks killed 1.5 million people systematically in 1915 - a claim strongly denied by Turkey.
Free vote
Turkey has been warning France for weeks not to pass the bill.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gifhttp://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif The opposition against Turkey in the EU has begun to present an ugly face http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif


Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said on Wednesday: "If this bill is passed, Turkey will not lose anything but France will lose Turkey. [France] will turn into a country that jails people who express their views."
The vote, in the lower house of the French parliament on Thursday morning, was sponsored by the opposition Socialist party.
The ruling Union for a Popular Movement (UMP) did not back the law, but gave its deputies a free vote.
It passed by 106 votes to 19.
EU membership bid
The BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Istanbul says many Turks are angry at what they see as double standards in the EU, where opinions are sharply divided about whether Turkey should be allowed to join.
The official Turkish position states that many Christian Armenians and Muslim Turks died in fighting during World War I - but that there was no genocide.

France's President Chirac and Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy have both said Turkey will have to change that position and recognise the Armenian deaths as genocide before it joins the EU.
Turks argue that while the EU is pressuring Turkey to improve its legislation to ensure full freedom of speech France seems to be moving in the opposite direction.
EU enlargement commissioner Olli Rehn urged France not to adopt the bill, which he said was "counterproductive".
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42178000/jpg/_42178885_deadpic203.jpg Arguments have raged for decades about the Armenian deaths


Turkish politicians on Wednesday considered a law that would make it a crime to deny that French killings in Algeria in 1945 were genocide.
But Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan objected, saying: "We are not like those who clean dirt with dirt."
France has about 500,000 people of Armenian descent - thought to be the largest Armenian immigrant community in western Europe.
There are accusations in Turkey that the Armenian diaspora and opponents of Turkey's EU membership bid are using this issue to prevent Turkey joining the 25-member bloc.
The Socialist MP and former minister Jack Lang helped to draft an existing French law which recognises that Armenians suffered genocide in Turkey.
But he told the BBC's World Today programme that the new bill was unnecessary. "I cannot give my vote to a completely stupid law which will punish somebody who expressed free judgement concerning historical facts. It's not acceptable. "We have to help Turkey to accept, progressively, what was history. I think that this provocation of the French parliament will not help the consciousness in Turkey," he said.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6043730.stm

Here we go!!! Looks like turkey isn't going to join the EU any time soon.

Clearday-TRForce
10-12-2006, 08:07 AM
It writes "Freedom of Speech is broken by France - Historical Mistake"
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/_newsimages/2289434.jpg

It writes "Turkey stand up, Foreign Ministery: Relations Under Heavy Harm
http://www.milliyet.com.tr/2006/10/12/resim/akapak133503.jpg


REUTERS
France risks Turkish wrath with Armenia vote

CNN
French vote on Turkey's WWI role

Guardian Unlimited
Turkey warns France over Armenian genocide bill

"Liberty, Equality, Stupidity," Turkish daily Hurriyet said in a headline on Thursday, reflecting widespread Turkish anger and irritation over the vote.

The opposition against Turkey in the EU has begun to present an ugly face

Cengiz Candar
Turkish commentator

Clearday-TRForce
10-12-2006, 08:14 AM
CUMHURIYET headline "Declaration of War"

http://image.haber7.com/haber/42281.jpg

How strange,at the same time I see a news in BBC. :)
LATEST news: Turkish writer Orhan Pamuk wins Nobel Literature Prize. More soon.

-Id
10-12-2006, 08:21 AM
I hope that turkey will never yoin EU

Exactly and this law is a step in the good direction.

LOL@ turkey chest beating.

LOL@ turkey denying Armenian genocide.

Clearday-TRForce
10-12-2006, 08:25 AM
Exactly and this law is a step in the good direction.

LOL@ turkey chest beating.

LOL@ turkey denying Armenian genocide.

Yes and you show your hypocripsy and breed discrimination among people. This is your manner. Is it a christianity value? I think it is not. These are yours.

Jagdtiger
10-12-2006, 08:30 AM
well this measure of the french government may be harsh and some may see this as a reason to protest on the streets and burn french flags..ect...

but hey they eu said that the ermenian genocide happened so what´s wrong about passing a law about that??? shure it is understandable why the turks go furious because they don´t accept reality
the radicals use propaganda to increase the hatred towards the french which will probably result in more battles in the urban areas
but to be honest...we´ve waited for something like this to come and now it´s here and we´ve got to thank france for that.....

Jehuty
10-12-2006, 08:31 AM
Turkish journalists should write dramas. I don't think much people in France are loosing sleep about it, which is not the case of the turks apparently...

Fiber
10-12-2006, 08:34 AM
I personally think it is wrong to legislate such things. It is a personal choice to be ignorant.

Where do you draw the line on what "truths" you should legislate?

pepito
10-12-2006, 08:34 AM
Turkish journalists should write dramas. I don't think much people in France are loosing sleep about it, which is not the case of the turks apparently...

yes nobody in France are loosing sleep about it
nobody in france cares about turkey

Jagdtiger
10-12-2006, 08:37 AM
yes nobody in France are loosing sleep about it
nobody in france cares about turkey

oh we care about them quite a bit cause they wanna join the eu :)

Clearday-TRForce
10-12-2006, 08:54 AM
well this measure of the french government may be harsh and some may see this as a reason to protest on the streets and burn french flags..ect...

but hey they eu said that the ermenian genocide happened so what´s wrong about passing a law about that??? shure it is understandable why the turks go furious because they don´t accept reality
the radicals use propaganda to increase the hatred towards the french which will probably result in more battles in the urban areas
but to be honest...we´ve waited for something like this to come and now it´s here and we´ve got to thank france for that.....



it is more true to write "or your agenda" "or your reality" not us.

Clearday-TRForce
10-12-2006, 08:56 AM
I personally think it is wrong to legislate such things. It is a personal choice to be ignorant.

Where do you draw the line on what "truths" you should legislate?



Unfortunately, there are fews of yours around to think fairly and rightly. How can a country use law to indicate historical things? what a stupidity?

Clearday-TRForce
10-12-2006, 09:02 AM
There are some quick actions among the Turkish people. Everybody phones others, they angrily say "don't buy any french goods or foods", they gives french lists to the forums,newspapers...There is a really strange,furious things happening here. p-)

DeltaWhisky58
10-12-2006, 09:10 AM
Clear instructions were issued by a moderator in the other thread on this subject - you chose to ignore them - face the consequences.

Both threads will be locked, infractions have been issued. Do not open any further discussions on this topic.