Complete overview:Polish air defence system(pics & info)

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

First of all- defence of Polish airspace is divided between two units- WLiOP (Air and Air Defence Forces, they also controll fighter planes) and WOPL WL (Air Defence of the Land Froces). WLiOP are responsible for defence of important immovable targets- like cities, industrial centers, harbours etc. while WOPL's task is to secure the airspace over the units of Land Forces.

WLiOP
The command system:
The WLiOP comand system consist of: radar posts, four regional Command & Control Centres (ODN- Osrodek Dowodzenia i Naprowadzania) located in: Warsaw, Krakow, Poznan & Bydgoszcz, and finally the central command post- Centre of Air Operations (COP- Centrum Operacji Powietrznych). All radar posts, command centers, airbases and SAM units are connected with Dunaj system, compatibile with NATO air defence system- NATINADS.

http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/wiraze/w_numerzew/archiwumw/4-2002/dow3.jpg

http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/wiraze/w_numerzew/odnw2.jpg

21st ODN- Warsaw

SAM units:
WLiOP has 25 SAM squadrons: 20 use S-125M-SC Neva-SC, 2- S-200 Vega, 3 - 2K11 Krug.

http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/galeria/karat/obrazki/karat2.jpg

http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/galeria/karat/obrazki/karat4.jpg

http://www.modelarstwo.org.pl/pojazdy/dokumentacja/artykuly/cswliop/image010.jpg

http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/galeria/karat/obrazki/karat7.jpg

http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/galeria/karat/obrazki/karat5.jpg

http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/galeria/karat/obrazki/karat6.jpg

http://home.hetnet.nl/~fap4/images/tankstuff/s125_2.jpg
Neva-SC modernisation includes: placing launchers & radars on vechicles (launchers on T-55 chassis, radars on MAZ former SCUD launchers), and replacing old electronics with new digital systems.

http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/galeria/karat/obrazki/karat1.jpg

http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/wiraze/w_numerzew/009.JPG

http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/wiraze/w_numerzew/007.JPG
Krug launcher

http://www.wp.mil.pl/auths/73/files/krug.m1.jpg

http://www.wp.mil.pl/auths/73/%20files/krug.m2.jpg
Radar stations

http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/wiraze/w_numerzew/010.JPG
Reloading the missile

http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/wiraze/w_numerzew/012.JPG
Krug battery during winter excersise

http://www.wzu.pl/zasoby/wega-wyrzutnia.jpg
S-200 launcher

WOPL WL
The command system:
WOPL are a part of the Land Forces, so it's commanders are amenable to land forces units commanders. WOPL must secure the airspace over maneouvering units, so all command posts & launchers are mobile.
WOPL use Rega system, which consist of: Lowcza-3 division-level command vechicle, WD-2001- SAM squadron/battery command vechicle, Rega-3 & Rega-4- terminals located in each SAM launcher.

http://www.radwar.com.pl/zoom/Image057.jpg
The system

http://www.radwar.com.pl/pol/images/image058.jpg
Lowcza-3

http://www.radwar.com.pl/pol/images/image051.jpg
Lowcza-3K- based on military truck

http://www.radwar.com.pl/zoom/Image068.jpg
Interior

http://www.radwar.com.pl/zoom/Image072.jpg
screenshot :D

http://www.radwar.com.pl/pol/images/image053.jpg
WD-2001

http://www.radwar.com.pl/zoom/Image086.jpg
...and it's interior[/img]

It's a joint topic between me & perdurabo, so...

TO BE CONTINUED...

[HELEX]

Can you give us some Info about the Ranges of the different systems?

[perdurabo]

Ok my part are guns and rockets from WOPL WL
First pics of ewuipment(with little adon info)
S-60
Old 57mm AA guns moustly they are going to museums or are sold out but few of them will remain in service upgraded into Blenda system, witch consists of command and targeting truck (it cooperates with command systems Rega/Lowcza):
http://www.radwar.com.pl/pol/images/image055.jpg
inside
http://www.radwar.com.pl/pol/images/image091.jpg
targetting pod (completly passive optical systems that where developed for Loara):
http://www.radwar.com.pl/pol/images/image093.jpg
and S-60 itselfe (with modernized mechanics)
http://www.radwar.com.pl/pol/images/image054.jpg
in 1 battery there are 4 S60 and one Blenda truck and also power generator.

Next there are ZU-23-2 and ZUR-23-2S and ZUR-23-2TG(also caled KG) (ZU are only 2x23mm AA guns on one pod and ZUR S has also 2 S-2(Striela) rockets and TG has 2xGrom AA rocets[polish product experts say that it's better than Stinger])
2S
http://www.obr.tarnow.pl/pl/images/opracowania/zur-23-2ss.jpg
2KG/2TG
http://www.obr.tarnow.pl/pl/images/opracowania/zur23_2kgs.jpg
http://www.serwis-militarny.net/foto/gp/jod1.jpg
they can be mounted on Star truck as Hibernyt system
http://www.obr.tarnow.pl/pl/images/opracowania/hibneryts.jpg
http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/wiraze/w_numerzew/archiwumw/21-2001/test6.jpg
ZSU-23-4 Shilka moust of them will be phased out and Loara A takes their place but few of them will be upgraded (to be a bridge until LoaraA comes fully in service)
basic Shilka:
http://www.pancerni.to2.pl/zestplot/ZSU-23-4-1.jpg
http://kolo.wha.la/~hkt/grafikawlop/szylka2.jpg
afther modernization ZSU-23-4MP Biala ("the withe one")
it has new optical targetting pod passive only, with optics developed in Loara program also new APU(eingine gained around 30%power more and fumes has lower temp and it can work longer) and whole electronics and it can be pinned up to Rega/Lowcza, also it has added Grom rockets containers (2containers with 2rockets)
http://pvo.guns.ru/images/expo/mspo2002/ZSU-23-4MP_Missile_Poland_MSPO_02.JPG
AA man protable rockets
Striela S2(phased out and replaced by Grom -"Thunder")
http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/wiraze/w_numerzew/archiwumw/21-2001/test2.jpg
Grom (new AA rocket - well frome 90' developed in Poland)
(**** i can't find any:/)
POPRAD(new toy 4xgrom plus optical targetting systems on Iveco small truck)
http://www.radwar.com.pl/pol/images/image049.jpg
and its pod:
http://www.radwar.com.pl/pol/images/image115.jpg
LoaraA (replacment for Shilka and Loara R will be rocket version to replace Osa and Kub systems but it will go to production afther 2007/2010 or so)
http://www.radwar.com.pl/pol/images/image099.jpg

Osa AK(will be upgraded)
http://kolo.wha.la/~hkt/grafikawlop/osa2.jpg
http://kolo.wha.la/~hkt/grafikawlop/osa3.jpg
Kub
http://www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl/wiraze/w_numerzew/archiwumw/21-2001/test3.jpg
http://www.valm.sk/kub.jpg
with radar:
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/straightflush01.jpg

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

S-125M Neva:

Basic tactical and technical characteristics of the missile
- effective range of detection and automatic target tracking (target radar cross-section: 1m2):
for low altitude target = 40 km / 28 km;
for medium altitude target = 70 km / 40-45 km
- max limit of destruction zone: 25 km
- min limit of destruction zone: 3.5 km
- max target engagement altitude: 18km
- min target engagement altitude: 20m
- target bearing parameters: 16.5km
- effective range for the surface and sea-based targets: 3.5-17km

2K11 Krug:

Maximum target speed 2880 kph. 5 minutes from arrival at a new location to launch readiness; 5 minutes required to depart in 'shoot and scoot' mode. Two missiles per launcher. Data are Russian source. Total Mass: 2,450 kg. Core Diameter: 0.86 m. Total Length: 8.80 m. Span: 2.56 m. Standard warhead mass: 150 kg. Maximum range: 45 km. Boost Propulsion: Solid rocket. Boost engine: 4 x solid rocket. Cruise engine: Ramjet. Guidance: Semi-active radar homing + command link. Maximum speed: 3,060 kph. Minimum range: 11 km. Ceiling: 23,500 m. Floor: 3,000 m. Surveillance Radar: Long Track/E. Tracking Radar

S-200 Vega:

Maximum target speed 4300 kph. One missile per launch vehicle. Western sources mixed this missile up with the Dal system, later code-named Gammon, with lateral boosters. Vega/Dubna code names used as well. Total Mass: 2,800 kg. Core Diameter: 0.86 m. Total Length: 10.60 m. Span: 2.90 m. Maximum range: 150 km. Boost Propulsion: Solid rocket. Cruise Propulsion: Solid rocket. Guidance: Semi-Active Radar Homing + Radio command. Maximum speed: 4,900 kph. Ceiling: 20,000 m.

More S-125M-SC pics:
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img004/s-125m-poland-07.jpg
T-55 based launcher

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img004/s-125m-snr-125-03.jpg
Radar/command vechicle interior

[Marmot1]

"GROM"http://www.mesko.com.pl/images/zolnierz_z_wyrzutnia_small.gif
http://www.mesko.com.pl/images/Grom_platform.jpg
http://www.mesko.com.pl/images/grom_poc.gif
http://www.mesko.com.pl/images/grom_wyz.gif
http://www.mesko.com.pl/images/grom_ms_small.gif


Tactical and technical data


(Set weight) 16,5 kg
(Missile weight) 10,5 kg
(Calibre) 72 mm
(Average flight speed) 650 m/s
(Ambient performance temperature range) -35 oC ÷ +50 oC

Range of target

(Altitude of target) 10 ÷ 3500 m
(Min. distance) 400 ÷500 m
(Max. distance) 5500 m

Course parameter

(Jet aircraft) do (to) 2000 m
(helicopters and piston engine aircraft) (to) 3000 m
(Time to prepare set to operational position) max. 15 s.

(Anti-aircraft missile set has been used in Polish Army Forces since 1995)

Producent:
http://www.mesko.com.pl/ramka3_ang.htm

[Kingpin]

Сколько не называй кошку собакой все равно всем видно, что она кошка :)

Какой в жопу Гром! Игла! :)

[Herrmannek]

Kingpin, maybe it looks like igla but it isn't........

[mack pl]

Сколько не называй кошку собакой все равно всем видно, что она кошка :)

Какой в жопу Гром! Игла! :)haha, its not Igla, its GROM ;)

[Kingpin]

How it called by you, my polish dudes? Plagiarism! You first said this word!

[Marmot1]

Сколько не называй кошку собакой все равно всем видно, что она кошка :)

Какой в жопу Гром! Игла! :)

First of all I am not a dog, maybe you have some on fammily but not me.
Secondly it is Grom not Igla basicaly tube and main rocket body is from igla but new warhead, new seeker,polish fierdly/enemy identifier,new targeying system so there is very little from Igla left... of course from outside it looks similar but it is compettly diferet... and polish seeker is much more effective since some technology used in it (dont know exactly since it is secret but it is some king of Nitrogeg cooling or something like that so it ismuch more dificult to "foul" rocket)

[mack pl]

Who said plagiarism?Im not some expert,so i could only said its not Igla,"dude"(I dont like this word).GROM is different weapon(well maybe some parts are the same,but its not 100% russian product).But if you have different opinion I dont care ;)BTW maybe some others polish guys try to explain this thing,im not expert :( Regards.

[Kingpin]

Remember Buran discussion?

[Marmot1]

How it called by you, my polish dudes? Plagiarism! You first said this word!
Plagiarism is when you copy something without licence (like you)... And we have licence for T-72,AK family, Striela 2m, SA-18, and for a lot more stuff... and we PAID for them

[Marmot1]

Remember Buran discussion?

And did you paid for copying US shuttle? ;) or B-29 or Concord?

[haze99]

Nein! Nyet! No! You no more use USSR industrial complex numbers! You are NATO now!

You must relearn!

S-125 Neva (SA-3 Goa )

S-200 (SA-5 Gammon )

Kub (SA-6 Gainful )

Osa Ak (SA-8B Gecko )

Grom (SA-18 Grouse)

[Catch22]

It is my wish to meet one day
this mastermind person
who is responsible for all
these NATO codenames
for OPFOR vechicles
He must have a specific
sense of humour :roll:

All those Foxbats, Gainfuls, Flankers, Frogfoots...

[Lysander]

Does anyone else have problems with the pictures posted by Brzeczyszczykiewicz? Almost all of them show up as red X for me.

Marmot1...What is that truck pictured in the "GROM" section? Not the Iveco, but the black pickup truck like one.

[Catch22]

You mean that black Mercedes G?

[Lysander]

You mean that black Mercedes G?

This one...
http://www.mesko.com.pl/images/Grom_platform.jpg[/img]

[Catch22]

Heh - silly me :cantbeli: first I understood you mean GROM as a unit not AA missile :P

[RuSoKaR]

Fighter: NATO name starts with 'F' (e.g, Frogfoot, Flanker, Fulcrum)
Bomber: B (Badger, Bear, Bison, Blackjack, Blinder, Backfire)
Transport: C (Candid, Cub, Condor)
Helicopters: H (Hip, Hind, Helix, Hokum, Halo, Havoc)


And weapons are:
SA-N-** (Surface to Air - Naval)
SS-N-** (Surface to Surface - Naval)
SS-** (Surface to Surface)
AA-** (Air to Air)
Does this help?

[Catch22]

It did a bit... thanks Rusokar - however calling SU 24 or 25 a "Fighter" doesnt fit into my general idea of a fighter plane. ;)

[wholagun]

The ZSU-23-4MP Biala can't rotate 360 degrees can it? It can only fire in one direction without the entire chasis having to move, correct?

[Catch22]

Where you got this idea from Wholagun? It rotates its turret normally full 360 - just as shilka does.

[Lysander]

It did a bit... thanks Rusokar - however calling SU 24 or 25 a "Fighter" doesnt fit into my general idea of a fighter plane. ;)

Kind of like the F-117. ;)

[RuSoKaR]

F-117 is a fighter?

[wholagun]

Where you got this idea from Wholagun? It rotates its turret normally full 360 - just as shilka does.

Well I don't know anything about it, meh..

I don't know just looked like it couldn't rotate. What kind of caliber are those guns?

[Marmot1]

Where you got this idea from Wholagun? It rotates its turret normally full 360 - just as shilka does.

Well I don't know anything about it, meh..

I don't know just looked like it couldn't rotate. What kind of caliber are those guns?

4X 23mm :-)

It rotate fully, or my memory is bad (I had ocasion to ride one and play with turreat few years ago (sorry no shooting :( )

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

Does anyone else have problems with the pictures posted by Brzeczyszczykiewicz? Almost all of them show up as red X for me.

I know... the site which host the photos (www.czasopismawlop.mil.pl) is temporarily down.

But yesterday it worked... :oops:

[Maciek]

F-117 is a fighter?

I read that F-117 can use AIM-120 AMRAAM

[perdurabo]

Nein! Nyet! No! You no more use USSR industrial complex numbers! You are NATO now!

You must relearn!

S-125 Neva (SA-3 Goa )

S-200 (SA-5 Gammon )

Kub (SA-6 Gainful )

Osa Ak (SA-8B Gecko )

Grom (SA-18 Grouse)
dude
SA-18 is for Igla AA's but Grom isn't Igla! it has even better seeker than Stinger...
And we won't leave proper names for some supid....#$^@$%&@ :D

[haze99]

Perdurabo, no big problem, just know that if you are around US soldiers or Marines and use that terminology. We will look at you sort of crazy!? :| Plus, the Brits would not know what you are refering to either!

That is why the NATO staff created this NATO-verisal coding (back in the 1950's) Why?
Let's say, that there had been a war with the Warsaw Pact (say in 1982). And I as a US soldier, am operating with a Danish Artillery unit or Spanish Calvary unit. If one of them spotted a SA-8 (you call Osa Ak) and radioed it to me. I would know exactly what he saw! There would be NO confusion.

You must unlearn !@#$%^&*Warsaw Pact names! You NATO now!

[perdurabo]

Perdurabo, no big problem, just know that if you are around US soldiers or Marines and use that terminology. We will look at you sort of crazy!? :| Plus, the Brits would not know what you are refering to either!

That is why the NATO staff created this NATO-verisal coding (back in the 1950's) Why?
Let's say, that there had been a war with the Warsaw Pact (say in 1982). And I as a US soldier, am operating with a Danish Artillery unit or Spanish Calvary unit. If one of them spotted a SA-8 (you call Osa Ak) and radioed it to me. I would know exactly what he saw! There would be NO confusion.

You must unlearn !@#$%^&*Warsaw Pact names! You NATO now!
rofl rofl rofl
so use the same system for all in other way it's stupid for one you use oryginal names but for slavic names you make some codenames IT'S STUPID!
you can use Stinger name yes? so we can use Grom name...

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

You must unlearn !@#$%^&*Warsaw Pact names! You NATO now!

They aren't any 'Warsaw Pact names' :P They're original names given to them by their constructors.And in Polish it's easier to say "kub" than "gainful" .

But I'm quite sure that during international excersises our soldiers use 'SA-xx' codenames.

[Lysander]

F-117 is a fighter?

Not that I know of. AFAIK it is a bomber, but it has an "F" designation.

[tony6]

Some LOARA pictures:
http://www.radwar.com.pl/zoom/Image097.jpg
http://www.radwar.com.pl/zoom/Image101.jpg
http://www.radwar.com.pl/zoom/Image091.jpg

[wholagun]

http://www.radwar.com.pl/zoom/Image101.jpg

in this pic, doesn't anyone else see how the back of the Loara is carry most of the weight. the front end looks ok, but the back track is dug into the sand. Thats what I was talking about when I said previous how the back end is carrying more weight then the front.

[perdurabo]

http://www.radwar.com.pl/zoom/Image101.jpg

in this pic, doesn't anyone else see how the back of the Loara is carry most of the weight. the front end looks ok, but the back track is dug into the sand. Thats what I was talking about when I said previous how the back end is carrying more weight then the front.
this is still prototype man serial products will have little difrent chasis with better weight composition.

[Maciek]

in this pic, doesn't anyone else see how the back of the Loara is carry most of the weight. the front end looks ok, but the back track is dug into the sand. Thats what I was talking about when I said previous how the back end is carrying more weight then the front.

No. It is ok. When you drive through loose sand the first wheel will be always higher then the last wheel. Every next wheel will sink in sand more then the previous.