Signs That Shiites and Sunnis Are Joining to Fight Americans

[HELEX]

BAGHDAD, Iraq, April 8 — When the United States invaded Iraq a year ago, one of its chief concerns was preventing a civil war between Shiite Muslims, who make up a majority in the country, and Sunni Muslims, who held all the power under Saddam Hussein.

Now the fear is that the growing uprising against the occupation is forging a new and previously unheard of level of cooperation between the two groups — and the common cause is killing Americans.

"We have orders from our leader to fight as one and to help the Sunnis," said Nimaa Fakir, a 27-year-old teacher and foot soldier in the Mahdi Army, a Shiite militia. "We want to increase the fighting, increase the killing and drive the Americans out. To do this, we must combine forces."

This new Shiite-Sunni partnership was flourishing in Baghdad on Thursday. Convoys of pickup trucks with signature black Shiite flags flapping from their bumpers hauled sacks of grain, flour, sugar and rice into Sunni mosques.

The food donations were coming from Shiite families, in many cases from people with little to spare. And they were headed to the besieged residents of Falluja, a city that has now become the icon of the resistance, especially after the bombing on Wednesday of a mosque compound there.

"Sunni, Shia, that doesn't matter anymore," said Sabah Saddam, a 32-year-old government clerk who took the day off to drive one of the supply trucks. "These were artificial distinctions. The people in Falluja are starving. They are Iraqis and they need our help."

But it is not just relief aid that is flowing into the city.

According to several militia members, many Shiite fighters are streaming into Falluja to help Sunni insurgents repel a punishing assault by United States marines. Groups of young men with guns are taking buses from Shiite neighborhoods in Baghdad to the outskirts of Falluja, and then slipping past checkpoints to join the action. "It's not easy to get in, but we have our ways," said Ahmed Jumar, a 25-year-old professional soccer player who also belongs to a Shiite militia. "Our different battles have turned into one fight, the fight against the Americans."

American leaders had been concerned that the rival sectarian groups would not find a common cause. Now, it seems, they have found a common enemy. "The danger is we believe there is a linkage that may be occurring at the very lowest levels between the Sunni and the Shia," Lt. General Ricardo Sanchez, commander of the occupation forces, said on Thursday. "We have to work very hard to ensure that it remains at the tactical level."

He also said the call for unity is "clearly an attempt to take advantage of the situation."

Brig. Gen. Mark Hertling, an assistant commander of the First Armored Division, said military intelligence indicated that there might be some loose coordination between the renegade Shia movement of Moktada al-Sadr and a Sunni extremist group called Mohammed's Army in the western portions of Baghdad.

He said troops from the First Armored and the First Cavalry Divisions were conducting reconnaissance and offensive operations against fighters from both groups, who have converged on the road to Falluja.

The city, 35 miles west of Baghdad, has become the rallying cry of the resistance. It is in its fifth day of siege. Marines are trying to root out insurgents after four American security guards were ambushed there last week and their bodies were mutilated by a mob. American troops have been fighting house to house and mosque to mosque against a determined group of guerrillas. According to people inside Falluja, the situation is grim and getting grimmer.

"It's a disaster," said Sheik Ghazi Al Abid, a wealthy tribal leader, who was reached by telephone. "There's no food, no water, no electricity."

The sheik said it was so dangerous that bodies have been left on the streets because people are terrified to venture outside to collect them.

"Anybody who moves will get shot," the sheik said. "We need all the help we can get." He also said more than 300 people had been killed, hundreds more had been wounded, and medical supplies and blood were running low." There are so many injured civilians," the sheik said, "they don't know where to go."

In Baghdad, blood banks were packed. Imams at both Sunni and Shiite mosques put out a message that Falluja residents needed blood fast. On Thursday, a group of Shiite men formed a line at one Baghdad blood bank that wended out the door. The men were ready to get pricked with a needle for their Sunni brothers. "We share a cause now," said Mohammed Majid, a taxi driver. "Why not share our bodies?"

Pentagon officials said Thursday that they had no definitive figures on the size or scale of the Sunni or Shiite militias. That is largely because the militia movement seems too fluid, and it is splintered among several factions. "It's a mob mentality," said one intelligence official. "They are recruiting among a lot of unhappy people."

Shiite extremist groups have a long tradition of hiding their true strength, in large part because their history has been marked by persecution by Sunni elites in many Muslim countries. In southern Lebanon in the 1980's, for example, the Central Intelligence Agency was never able to get solid estimates of the number of Shiite fighters involved in Hezbollah or the Islamic resistance that eventually forced the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon, former United States intelligence officials said Thursday.

Those former officials pointed out that the practice of Taqiyya — dissembling about one's religion, especially in times of danger — is particular to Shiism. That secretive tradition has made Shiite groups extremely difficult for intelligence officers to penetrate, the former C.I.A. officers said.

Until last week, the Shiite groups had mostly sat out the resistance. Many Sunni fighters were loyal to Mr. Hussein. That alienated Shiites, who had been ruthlessly persecuted by the former Iraqi leader.

All that changed this week when Mr. Sadr activated his militia at the same time Falluja faced its biggest battle. Now, the two sides have joined. There were even reports on Thursday of armed men from Falluja escaping to Shiite neighborhoods in Baghdad. Mr. Hussein is no longer mentioned. Fighting the infidels is.

[FinnishMF]

It's going to be hard times for Americans.
:|

[Soulhunter]

yep ... I wonder where the Iraqis have hid all their roses for the liberators.

Send Bush,Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Rice and Perle to the front line! Let's see if they're still so arrogant over there or if they'll be sissies!

[fdt]

Put this other way: Sadrist insurgents can't find a wider support within own religious community (Sistani fraction) so they choose to join the Saddam regime loyal sunni minority... If they loose Yanks gonna put them into jail... if they will succeed and push Yanks off the Iraq, they will be soon slaughtered by their new "allies".

[Soulhunter]

The Sistani fraction is holding still right now because they hope to get elections soon. Of course they'll win those and then they'll try to dictate the new constitution. And if anyone, especially the Puppet Council, wants to prevent that, you'll see what happens ...

The US is in a big quagmire there.

[fdt]

The Sistani fraction is holding still right now because they hope to get elections soon. Of course they'll win those and then they'll try to dictate the new constitution. And if anyone, especially the Puppet Council, wants to prevent that, you'll see what happens ...

The US is in a big quagmire there.Michalek, Arturek or Zenus?

[Soulhunter]

is that your whole answer?

[HELEX]

Put this other way: Sadrist insurgents can't find a wider support within own religious community (Sistani fraction) so they choose to join the Saddam regime loyal sunni minority... If they loose Yanks gonna put them into jail... if they will succeed and push Yanks off the Iraq, they will be soon slaughtered by their new "allies".

This is the worst case of "I see it in the way I want to see it" ive ever seen. :roll:

[Soulhunter]

agreed, Helex

[fdt]

Put this other way: Sadrist insurgents can't find a wider support within own religious community (Sistani fraction) so they choose to join the Saddam regime loyal sunni minority... If they loose Yanks gonna put them into jail... if they will succeed and push Yanks off the Iraq, they will be soon slaughtered by their new "allies".

This is the worst case of "I see it in the way I want to see it" ive ever seen. :roll: Feeling is mutual. My post was provoked by Yours, and was supposed to be it's exact opposition. You are far too easy in making biased conclusions before the circumstances clear up. Wait few days and then we will continue the topic...[/quote]

So lets continue this a more medium cool manner...


http://www.*******.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4823046
Iraq Cleric Offers Peace Terms, U.S. Forces Poised
Wed Apr 14, 2004 06:00 AM ET
By Gleb Bryanski
NEAR NAJAF, Iraq (*******) - U.S. forces tightened their grip around one of Iraq's holiest cities, Najaf, on Wednesday after vowing to kill or capture a rebel Shi'ite cleric.

But an envoy appointed by Moqtada al-Sadr said the wanted cleric had asked him to convey peace proposals to the Americans.

Russia said it would airlift out more than 800 of its nationals and citizens of ex-Soviet states to escape a hostage free-for-all and worsening violence sweeping Iraq.

The 2,500-strong 3rd Brigade Task Force, along with Spanish and Polish troops, set up what U.S. officers called an exclusion zone around Najaf and sent out reconnaissance patrols from Forward Operating Base Duke, 20 km (13 miles) west of the city.

The Najaf buildup was proceeding hours after President Bush vowed to stay the course in Iraq and said a June 30 handover to Iraqi sovereignty would go ahead.

"Sayyed Moqtada made positive proposals to end the crisis. I cannot disclose the details. He realizes that an armed confrontation is not in anybody's interest," Sadr's envoy, Abdelkarim al-Anzi, now in Baghdad, told ******* by telephone.

Anzi said he had met Sadr in Najaf on Tuesday.

The U.S. military has branded Sadr an outlaw and pledged to kill or capture the cleric, who has taken refuge near Najaf's Imam Ali shrine, sacred to the world's Shi'ite Muslims.

[...]

http://www.*******.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4822312
BAGHDAD (*******) - An Iraqi envoy appointed by Moqtada al-Sadr said on Wednesday the Shi'ite cleric had asked him to convey a set of peace proposals to U.S. officials.
Sadr's supporters have been rising up against the U.S.-led occupying forces in south and central Iraq.

"Sayyed Moqtada made positive proposals to end the crisis. I cannot disclose the details. He realizes that an armed confrontation is not in anybody's interest," Abdelkarim al-Anzi told *******.


So Sadr seems to be: not the brave anti american freedom fighter, no bloodthirsty shia muslim fanatic, not the bravest of all Iraqis, not the unifier of the anti occupational resistance.... but an ordinary cold blooded mofo politician. Political business first... In this region politics is not the matter of polls, tv appearance or elections but the number of AKs, RPGs and ammo.... pluc some bucks too (but it's a world universal politicians gimmick). There also seems that he doesn't care a lot about his "alleged new sunni allies".

[Soulhunter]

ok, fdt .. that'll be interesting

[HELEX]

Yes, let's hope the best (for all, not for one side) :roll:

[fdt]

ok, fdt .. that'll be interestingNo, it won't be interesting... it will be clear.

[fdt]

is that your whole answer?Bullseye? :lol:

[fdt]

Put this other way: Sadrist insurgents can't find a wider support within own religious community (Sistani fraction) so they choose to join the Saddam regime loyal sunni minority... If they loose Yanks gonna put them into jail... if they will succeed and push Yanks off the Iraq, they will be soon slaughtered by their new "allies".

This is the worst case of "I see it in the way I want to see it" ive ever seen. :roll: Feeling is mutual. My post was provoked by Yours, and was supposed to be it's exact opposition. You are far too easy in making biased conclusions before the circumstances clear up. Wait few days and then we will continue the topic...[/quote]

So lets continue this a more medium cool manner...


http://www.*******.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4823046
Iraq Cleric Offers Peace Terms, U.S. Forces Poised
Wed Apr 14, 2004 06:00 AM ET
By Gleb Bryanski
NEAR NAJAF, Iraq (*******) - U.S. forces tightened their grip around one of Iraq's holiest cities, Najaf, on Wednesday after vowing to kill or capture a rebel Shi'ite cleric.

But an envoy appointed by Moqtada al-Sadr said the wanted cleric had asked him to convey peace proposals to the Americans.

Russia said it would airlift out more than 800 of its nationals and citizens of ex-Soviet states to escape a hostage free-for-all and worsening violence sweeping Iraq.

The 2,500-strong 3rd Brigade Task Force, along with Spanish and Polish troops, set up what U.S. officers called an exclusion zone around Najaf and sent out reconnaissance patrols from Forward Operating Base Duke, 20 km (13 miles) west of the city.

The Najaf buildup was proceeding hours after President Bush vowed to stay the course in Iraq and said a June 30 handover to Iraqi sovereignty would go ahead.

"Sayyed Moqtada made positive proposals to end the crisis. I cannot disclose the details. He realizes that an armed confrontation is not in anybody's interest," Sadr's envoy, Abdelkarim al-Anzi, now in Baghdad, told ******* by telephone.

Anzi said he had met Sadr in Najaf on Tuesday.

The U.S. military has branded Sadr an outlaw and pledged to kill or capture the cleric, who has taken refuge near Najaf's Imam Ali shrine, sacred to the world's Shi'ite Muslims.

[...]

http://www.*******.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4822312
BAGHDAD (*******) - An Iraqi envoy appointed by Moqtada al-Sadr said on Wednesday the Shi'ite cleric had asked him to convey a set of peace proposals to U.S. officials.
Sadr's supporters have been rising up against the U.S.-led occupying forces in south and central Iraq.

"Sayyed Moqtada made positive proposals to end the crisis. I cannot disclose the details. He realizes that an armed confrontation is not in anybody's interest," Abdelkarim al-Anzi told *******.


So Sadr seems to be: not the brave anti american freedom fighter, no bloodthirsty shia muslim fanatic, not the bravest of all Iraqis, not the unifier of the anti occupational resistance.... but an ordinary cold blooded mofo politician. Political business first... In this region politics is not the matter of polls, tv appearance or elections but the number of AKs, RPGs and ammo.... pluc some bucks too (but it's a world universal politicians gimmick). There also seems that he doesn't care a lot about his "alleged new sunni allies".

BTW sorry for posting it twice... mistakenly edited one of my previous posts instead of making a new one...

[ExtraT]

So Sadr seems to be: not the brave anti american freedom fighter, no bloodthirsty shia muslim fanatic, not the bravest of all Iraqis, not the unifier of the anti occupational resistance.... but an ordinary cold blooded mofo politician.

Hmmm... Has anyone ever doubted that?

[rokus2595]

So Sadr seems to be: not the brave anti american freedom fighter, no bloodthirsty shia muslim fanatic, not the bravest of all Iraqis, not the unifier of the anti occupational resistance.... but an ordinary cold blooded mofo politician. Political business first... In this region politics is not the matter of polls, tv appearance or elections but the number of AKs, RPGs and ammo.... pluc some bucks too

It saddens me when i think about iraq. The resistance to the US occupation is genuine, and is made up of the sort of people that would take up arms after they have had enough. We would do the same if our countries were invaded, told that we could elect our representatives as long as it is ok with the occupying powers, and oh by the way we are here to stay whether you like it or not.

Then you would understand that the whole democratization of iraq is a facade. The iraqis understand that now, and they are doing what the majority of us would do in the same situation.



So Sadr seems to be: not the brave anti american freedom fighter, no bloodthirsty shia muslim fanatic, not the bravest of all Iraqis, not the unifier of the anti occupational resistance

So what is Sadr? he has shown that he is an anti american fighter, maybe not the bravest but that is hard to quantify anyway, I would think that that term would apply to those civilians that decide to fight knowing full well how outgunned they are; perhaps not the unifier of the anti occupational resistance, but definitely a catalyst for it.


but an ordinary cold blooded mofo politician. Political business first... In this region politics is not the matter of polls, tv appearance or elections As opposed to Bush?



but the number of AKs, RPGs and ammo.... pluc some bucks too It is easier to commit injustices when we believe we are dealing with savages. The iraqis are not savages, they are just occupied. Have you in your country ever been occupied? me neither: let's ask the iraqis, not the americans.

and the iraqis are talking, but we are choosing not to listen:

"We have orders from our leader to fight as one and to help the Sunnis," said Nimaa Fakir, a 27-year-old teacher and foot soldier in the Mahdi Army, a Shiite militia. "We want to increase the fighting, increase the killing and drive the Americans out. To do this, we must combine forces."

"Sunni, Shia, that doesn't matter anymore," said Sabah Saddam, a 32-year-old government clerk who took the day off to drive one of the supply trucks. "These were artificial distinctions. The people in Falluja are starving. They are Iraqis and they need our help."

"It's not easy to get in, but we have our ways," said Ahmed Jumar, a 25-year-old professional soccer player who also belongs to a Shiite militia. "Our different battles have turned into one fight, the fight against the Americans."

"We share a cause now," said Mohammed Majid, a taxi driver. "Why not share our bodies?"

[fdt]

It saddens me when i think about iraq. The resistance to the US occupation is genuine, and is made up of the sort of people that would take up arms after they have had enough. We would do the same if our countries were invaded, told that we could elect our representatives as long as it is ok with the occupying powers, and oh by the way we are here to stay whether you like it or not.

Then you would understand that the whole democratization of iraq is a facade. The iraqis understand that now, and they are doing what the majority of us would do in the same situation.


Please... You wanted to say that if Yanks would occupy canada You would go and prepare the suicide attacks on Quebecquouise, because they are catholics...? (as in Karbala)


So what is Sadr? he has shown that he is an anti american fighter, maybe not the bravest but that is hard to quantify anyway, I would think that that term would apply to those civilians that decide to fight knowing full well how outgunned they are; perhaps not the unifier of the anti occupational resistance, but definitely a catalyst for it.

Yeah... anti american fighter rofl . He sent some naive followers to death, sitting in safe place. Now many of them are dead, but he offers political negotiations. He wants his position strenghtened he aims his ass in some golden throne.


but an ordinary cold blooded mofo politician. Political business first... In this region politics is not the matter of polls, tv appearance or elections As opposed to Bush?

I must say I love this mumbo jumbo.... What Bush mistakes have to do with that now. I admit I was against the waging the war against Iraq, but now my then anti war feeling (such as Yours) is completely pointless. The war has begun and the question is not who was right, but how to make Iraq a normal place. Pointing at Bush or Blair or someone else is TODAY completely pointless... or You really think it's still April 2003...


It is easier to commit injustices when we believe we are dealing with savages. The iraqis are not savages, they are just occupied. Have you in your country ever been occupied? me neither: let's ask the iraqis, not the americans. Wrong, my country was occupied for almost 50 years in this century. I know what it's like... My country has freed itself as the right time came... with no violence.

BTW have You ever thought of taking the olive branch and become an voluntary hostage? You still have Your chance...

[Fotch]

and the iraqis are talking, but we are choosing not to listen:

"We have orders from our leader to fight as one and to help the Sunnis," said Nimaa Fakir, a 27-year-old teacher and foot soldier in the Mahdi Army, a Shiite militia. "We want to increase the fighting, increase the killing and drive the Americans out. To do this, we must combine forces."

"Sunni, Shia, that doesn't matter anymore," said Sabah Saddam, a 32-year-old government clerk who took the day off to drive one of the supply trucks. "These were artificial distinctions. The people in Falluja are starving. They are Iraqis and they need our help."

"It's not easy to get in, but we have our ways," said Ahmed Jumar, a 25-year-old professional soccer player who also belongs to a Shiite militia. "Our different battles have turned into one fight, the fight against the Americans."

"We share a cause now," said Mohammed Majid, a taxi driver. "Why not share our bodies?"

Yes, yes...3 opinions a majority makes. :roll: . Not so much.

Try to remember who is running these militias:
A) The Sunni/Shia Clerics, whose very power base is threatened by the Coalition.
B) The criminal element, same reasoning as (A).
C) The 'insurgent element', who simply wish to keep the entire country unstable and fighting as it kills off more of the 'infadels'.

I for one do not believe that the majority of the population is against a democratic system being put into place though I am certain that 99% of the Iraqi population has no idea what that REALLY means. These people have never known (except for Babylonian times perhaps) what real freedom is but I am sure that the majority of the population would enjoy a taste of it. Bringing these militias into the open is the best thing that could have happened for the Coallition: their enemy is now in the open. Destroy the core and the rest of the opposition will fade away.

[ExtraT]

It saddens me when i think about iraq. The resistance to the US occupation is genuine, and is made up of the sort of people that would take up arms after they have had enough.


Had enough of what, exactly?



We would do the same if our countries were invaded, told that we could elect our representatives as long as it is ok with the occupying powers, and oh by the way we are here to stay whether you like it or not.


Oh, really? Did Germany throw out the Allies after WWII? Did Japan rise up against US occupation forces?



Then you would understand that the whole democratization of iraq is a facade. The iraqis understand that now, and they are doing what the majority of us would do in the same situation.


Interesting, How is it that you're speaking for the WHOLE of iraqi people right now? Do you really think that ALL or even MOST Iraqis want religious fanatics governing them?
The fact is, this "insurrestion" is not as popular as some would let us believe! If it really was a general uprising, the tactical situation for Coalition forces would have been GRAVE. There aren't that many of them there to effectively repel something like that, concidering how much weapons are floating around over there.

This is not an uprising - it's an insurrection funded and controlled from the outside. And the fact that Sadr wants negotiating means one thing - he's beaten. His militia is contained and, to a large extent, destroyed. He knows that if Coalition enters Najaf, he is finished, probably even dead. So he's trying to bargain for his life.



So what is Sadr? he has shown that he is an anti american fighter ....


Sadr is Iran's puppet. Iran is using him (and paying him) to destablize situation in Iraq enough, so that they can take control there. It's Iran's wet dream, it's as simple as that. They always wanted to do this - why do you think Saddam was after the Shia's all the time? Or, maybe you forgot the Iran-Iraq war?



As opposed to Bush?


Why do stupid SOBs like always to bring up Bush in conversations like that? It's not about Bush, it's about Sadr, so stick to the bloody point!



It is easier to commit injustices when we believe we are dealing with savages.


So, you believe that they are not savages? (I'm talking about the terrorists, not all Iraqis)
Don;'t you know that taking hostages is a war crime? Or, maybe, you think that torturing killing and mutilating civilians is "civilized"?



and the iraqis are talking, but we are choosing not to listen:
....
....



I'm sorry, but anybody who is at least alittle bit versed in the Middle Eastern mentality will immidately see that this is pure bull****. History has shown time and again, and without any exceptions, that inter clan hatred is always there to stay. More so, to large extent it's the same everywhere on this planet. THERE IS NO WAY SUNNIS AND SHIITES WILL FORGET THER BLOOD FEUD. There are already rivers of blood in between them, and they won't forget it. They can postpone it alittle, if the incentive (money) is right (which seems to be the case here), but you can always count it to reemerge as soon as this incentive loses it's strength.

If the Coalition is driven out (I don't believe that even for a second), then Iraq will plunge into a bloody civil war, with astronomical casualties. And then Iran will move in. And believe me, that is the last thing ANYBODY in their right mind would want - to let Iran get all these resources. Even without them they are pretty dangerous.

[Fotch]

Extra...I like the way you think. :P

Don't get too worked up when the children on the board start posting. They will get into the real world some day and have the shades pulled back from their eyes.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

http://www.danzigercartoons.com/img/2004/dancart1978.jpg