Iraqi (Arab) mentality/mind-set, a problem?

[UkrainianAmerican]

I have been pondering this for some time. Is it possible that the biggest problem with Iraq, and the Arab world in general is their midset and outlook? It seems that this is a good explanation for the lack of Western style democracy throughout the Arab world.
Your opinions?

P.S. This is not meant as a flamebait, I want a serious discussion if possible.
Thanks.

[Commander Cool]

Most definitely.

I was watching on TV yesterday, there were 3 Japanese people (not soldiers, but civilian aid workers, they looked very young, in their early 20's) and a bunch of masked Arabs were holding large knives against their throats, and the Japs were screaming in fear, and the Arabs were shouting "Allah Allah Allah!" and there was a whole bunch more Arabs in the background jumping up and down and shouting. You have to wonder, what exactly is going through these people's minds? How do they think? How do they reason? The strange thing is, it's not a cultural problem but a genetic one. I go to college with a lot of Arabs who have lived in the US for most of their lives, and they are otherwise intelligent civilized people, but when discussing current events in the middle east they cheer when Americans are killed, and I specifically remember how about 3 years ago an Arab suicide bomber blew up several Israeli kids, and one Arab girl who I had always thought was intelligent called him a martyr. I don't think there is anything we can do about the way the Arabs are, we can't change them. The only solution is to keep out of their business and keep them out of ours, and use maintain overwhelming military superiority over them, because if they ever become more powerful than us (the west), we're all doomed. That's why I'm an isolationist, I believe some people just shouldn't mix.

[Sergei]

I have been pondering this for some time. Is it possible that the biggest problem with Iraq, and the Arab world in general is their midset and outlook? It seems that this is a good explanation for the lack of Western style democracy throughout the Arab world.
Your opinions?

P.S. This is not meant as a flamebait, I want a serious discussion if possible.
Thanks.

Yep, it is not a flamebait, just a stupid question.
You question their mindset, they question yours, go figure who is more righteous. There is no good or bad here, nor white and black. They are a different culture, you either accept it or you will be repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

[soldierandy]

There is no good or bad here, nor white and black. They are a different culture

:( incredible...

[UkrainianAmerican]

I have been pondering this for some time. Is it possible that the biggest problem with Iraq, and the Arab world in general is their midset and outlook? It seems that this is a good explanation for the lack of Western style democracy throughout the Arab world.
Your opinions?

P.S. This is not meant as a flamebait, I want a serious discussion if possible.
Thanks.

Yep, it is not a flamebait, just a stupid question.
You question their mindset, they question yours, go figure who is more righteous. There is no good or bad here, nor white and black. They are a different culture, you either accept it or you will be repeating the same mistakes over and over again.
Some cultures are less civilized and rational then others.

[Brozozo]

I have been pondering this for some time. Is it possible that the biggest problem with Iraq, and the Arab world in general is their midset and outlook? It seems that this is a good explanation for the lack of Western style democracy throughout the Arab world.
Your opinions?

P.S. This is not meant as a flamebait, I want a serious discussion if possible.
Thanks.

I agree. IMO they're a backwards breed, living very much the same way they lived 500 years ago with some additions of technology provided by their western colonizers. Those people havn't made any serious advancememnts in the past 800 or so years by themselves.

Their way of thinking is also all f*cked up. They seem to have a fetish with killing themselves. 98% of the world's terrorist groups are muslim/arab, I can only think of 2 serious non-arab groups: the IRA (some would argue, but their activities have almost ceased recently) and ETA (the Basque in Spain). For some reason they feel the need to blow themselves up when things arn't going their way, just look at the Palestinanians.

And for some reason they believe they are superior to non-arabs. How? If the west hadn't colonized them or if they didn't have oil they would be living in the same way their ancestors did, in camel-**** huts. In a century or so when oil is a thing of the past due to fuel cells etc. we'll see how those towel-heads get along without having anything to sell, you'll see them on every WorldVision episode..."sponsor a former terrorist for a dollar a day..."

They just suffer from a grossly false superority complex, how are they better when we f*cked them up twice in 12 years? C'mon.. :roll:

[Commander Cool]

Exactly. I'm not racist but the idea that "all cultures are equal" is just a bunch of PC BS.

[HELEX]

Some cultures are less civilized and rational then others.

But in their eyes we are less civilized with our open culture(****, Drugs,Hooker, consume, crime, Divorces, serial Killers.... ).

And who says we are right? God? :lol:

[UkrainianAmerican]

Some cultures are less civilized and rational then others.

But in their eyes we are less civilized with our open culture(****, Drugs,Hooker, consume, crime, Divorces, serial Killers.... ).

And who says we are right? God? :lol:
Our accomplishments do.
What has the Arab Culture accomplished in the last 500 years besides terrorism?

[soldierandy]

Some cultures are less civilized and rational then others.

But in their eyes we are less civilized with our open culture(****, Drugs,Hooker, consume, crime, Divorces, serial Killers.... ).

And who says we are right? God? :lol:

you haven't met the Arabs have you? They got all of the above matey all of it..

[soldierandy]

Some cultures are less civilized and rational then others.

But in their eyes we are less civilized with our open culture(****, Drugs,Hooker, consume, crime, Divorces, serial Killers.... ).

And who says we are right? God? :lol:

you haven't met the Arabs have you? They got all of the above matey all of it...

PS what is wrong with **** anyway? :lol:

[cut]

Most definitely.

I was watching on TV yesterday, there were 3 Japanese people (not soldiers, but civilian aid workers, they looked very young, in their early 20's) and a bunch of masked Arabs were holding large knives against their throats, and the Japs were screaming in fear, and the Arabs were shouting "Allah Allah Allah!" and there was a whole bunch more Arabs in the background jumping up and down and shouting. You have to wonder, what exactly is going through these people's minds? How do they think? How do they reason? The strange thing is, it's not a cultural problem but a genetic one. I go to college with a lot of Arabs who have lived in the US for most of their lives, and they are otherwise intelligent civilized people, but when discussing current events in the middle east they cheer when Americans are killed, and I specifically remember how about 3 years ago an Arab suicide bomber blew up several Israeli kids, and one Arab girl who I had always thought was intelligent called him a martyr. I don't think there is anything we can do about the way the Arabs are, we can't change them. The only solution is to keep out of their business and keep them out of ours, and use maintain overwhelming military superiority over them, because if they ever become more powerful than us (the west), we're all doomed. That's why I'm an isolationist, I believe some people just shouldn't mix.

:cantbeli:

let me show you how rediculous this is.


I was watching on TV yesterday, and I heard that someone in a minivan fired a machine gun at a 17-year-old student as he walked down the street, killing him and injuring two other people in a nearby bar.
You have to wonder, what exactly is going through these people's minds? How do they think? How do they reason? The strange thing is, it's not a cultural problem but a genetic one. The only solution is to keep out of their business and keep them out of ours, and use create overwhelming military superiority over them, so that they are no longer more powerful than us , otherwise we're all doomed. That's why I'm an isolationist, I believe some people just shouldn't mix.

BTW that shooting happen in West Philedelphia and is in today's news.
Here's another one.

I was watching on TV a year ago, and I saw how a sniper went around the washington area killing innocent people. You have to wonder, what exactly is going through these people's minds? How do they think? How do they reason? The strange thing is, it's not a cultural problem but a genetic one. The only solution is to keep out of their business and keep them out of ours, and use create overwhelming military superiority over them, so that they are no longer more powerful than us , otherwise we're all doomed. That's why I'm an isolationist, I believe some people just shouldn't mix.

There you think a few people in a country are representative of a race. As for some other arabs you know supporting the insurgents, you would still support the troops after a my lai type incident.


The strange thing is, it's not a cultural problem but a genetic one

this little gem, is racism, when you put problem and genetic together when talking of a different race, that's what it is. Especially if you get to that point through prejudice and generalisation.

[HELEX]

@RussianAmerican

You dont have to convince me, I just showed their point of view....

...so you have to convince them.

[cut]

Some cultures are less civilized and rational then others.

But in their eyes we are less civilized with our open culture(****, Drugs,Hooker, consume, crime, Divorces, serial Killers.... ).

And who says we are right? God? :lol:

you haven't met the Arabs have you? They got all of the above matey all of it...

PS what is wrong with **** anyway? :lol:

he's right though and it's not just arabs who think that.

[UkrainianAmerican]

@RussianAmerican

You dont have to convince me, I just showed their point of view....

...so you have to convince them.
Their honor/shame mentality wont let accept the fact that their culture is ****.
Hell, if their daughters have premarital ***, they get murdered by their fathers.

[Soulhunter]

that's not entirely true. the arabs got somewhat stuck in a western medieval mentality, but they weren't always like that. just check your history books (although some americans don't care about history, perhaps because their own only dates back a few hundred years?), but the arabs were great scientists for example during the middle ages. Then they were way more sophisticated and educated than the europeans (US didn't exist yet). They were skillfull doctors, architects and mathematicians.

You're using their numbers! 1,2,3 etc were an arab invention. Otherwise you would still be using the roman I, II, III etc ...

But someday their culture somehow stalled and even went backwards. I don't know why though. Would need to look that up :roll:

Today, they're blinded by hatred and religion coupled with historical, political errors made by the west ... So it's definitely not in the genes, but in the culture. And at some point, their culture, for whatever reason derailed a bit.

And let's not forget there are a lot of moderate Arabs as well. And the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is also VERY important and needs to be solved before any real change can happen down there ...

[Soulhunter]

@RussianAmerican

You dont have to convince me, I just showed their point of view....

...so you have to convince them.
Their honor/shame mentality wont let accept the fact that their culture is ****.
Hell, if their daughters have premarital ***, they get murdered by their fathers.

That's sort of the same mentality that christians had some hundreds of years ago. Luckily the western wolrd has evolved since then and become more secular. Although especially in the US there are worrying signs of christian fundamentalism :bash:

[Commander Cool]

It's not a "few" people in the country, it's the vast majority of them. Whereas criminals in our culture are a small minority. Big difference don't you think? Call it racism if you must, but the facts speak for themselves. How else do you explain the reason for Arabs who were born here, still supporting terrorist attacks against civilians? You can't say it's a cultural problem if they were born here. It might not be politically correct to say this, but some groups of people are by nature more violent and less moral than others.

[cut]

It's not a "few" people in the country, it's the vast majority of them. Whereas criminals in our culture are a small minority. Big difference don't you think? Call it racism if you must, but the facts speak for themselves. How else do you explain the reason for Arabs who were born here, still supporting terrorist attacks against civilians? You can't say it's a cultural problem if they were born here. It might not be politically correct to say this, but some groups of people are by nature more violent and less moral than others.

right that's it, you don't know what you're talking about. It is like in any country a MINORITY who do these things, there would be just as many if it was the US that was occupied. The reason why arabs that are born in the US still root for the success of other arabs is because they are of the same origin and because that is a trait of the immigrants that feel least accepted in their family.

Indian muslims in India who have lived in India for 40 generations as muslims after they were converted, still support Pakistan when they play india in cricket. Because despite India's aspiration as a secular country they aren't quite there.

[UkrainianAmerican]

that's not entirely true. the arabs got somewhat stuck in a western medieval mentality, but they weren't always like that. just check your history books (although some americans don't care about history, perhaps because their own only dates back a few hundred years?), but the arabs were great scientists for example during the middle ages. Then they were way more sophisticated and educated than the europeans (US didn't exist yet). They were skillfull doctors, architects and mathematicians.

The PROBLEM is that they STAYED there, while the West improved.



You're using their numbers! 1,2,3 etc were an arab invention. Otherwise you would still be using the roman I, II, III etc ...

WRONG! They were invented by Indians (Modern day Indians Pakis, bangladeshis). When the Caliphate spread to india, they "borrowed" it and claimed as their own. This is a historical fact. But hell what do I know? I am just a stupid fatass American.


But someday their culture somehow stalled and even went backwards. I don't know why though. Would need to look that up :roll:

There we go. A proof that they are backwards.


Today, they're blinded by hatred and religion coupled with historical, political errors made by the west ... So it's definitely not in the genes, but in the culture. And at some point, their culture, for whatever reason derailed a bit.

Agreed.


And let's not forget there are a lot of moderate Arabs as well. And the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is also VERY important and needs to be solved before any real change can happen down there ...
Not as many as I wouldve liked, but once again this is not about ARABS its about their culture, for I dont believe genes have anything to do with it. (Christian Arabs seem a LOT more westernized, and they have no problem integrating into our way of life, for example)

[Commander Cool]

Although especially in the US there are worrying signs of christian fundamentalism
Who make up what, 0.0001% of the US population? They're so small in number they're not even worth mentioning. And also, they don't intentionally kill civilians.

[Brozozo]

that's not entirely true. the arabs got somewhat stuck in a western medieval mentality, but they weren't always like that. just check your history books (although some americans don't care about history, perhaps because their own only dates back a few hundred years?), but the arabs were great scientists for example during the middle ages. Then they were way more sophisticated and educated than the europeans (US didn't exist yet). They were skillfull doctors, architects and mathematicians.

You're using their numbers! 1,2,3 etc were an arab invention. Otherwise you would still be using the roman I, II, III etc ...

But someday their culture somehow stalled and even went backwards. I don't know why though. Would need to look that up :roll:

Today, they're blinded by hatred and religion coupled with historical, political errors made by the west ... So it's definitely not in the genes, but in the culture. And at some point, their culture, for whatever reason derailed a bit.

And let's not forget there are a lot of moderate Arabs as well. And the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is also VERY important and needs to be solved before any real change can happen down there ...

All those accomplishments occured more than 800 years ago. Since then their culture and progression has stalled. Look at 14th century rural village in Saudi Arabia (or whatever it was called) and look at one now, they very well may be identical.

[UkrainianAmerican]

@RussianAmerican

You dont have to convince me, I just showed their point of view....

...so you have to convince them.
Their honor/shame mentality wont let accept the fact that their culture is ****.
Hell, if their daughters have premarital ***, they get murdered by their fathers.

That's sort of the same mentality that christians had some hundreds of years ago. Luckily the western wolrd has evolved since then and become more secular. Although especially in the US there are worrying signs of christian fundamentalism :bash:Agreed with everything but the last part.
Have you EVER been to US?
Ever been in the South?
If not, well maybe you should consider coming here, and froming your opinions after the fact.

[Soulhunter]

no, it's because they think that a certain thing is fundamentally wrong (israelo-palestinian problem) and that 'transcends their environment'. They identify themselves with that cause or problem wherever they live.

I think you can't really understand if you don't try to see it from their side. I don't say they're right though! But this whole thing goes on for so long that both sides are so deep into hatred that rationality doesn't have a chance.

And that's the problem the US is facing in Iraq! You can't just impose a western democracy like that one day to the other. That's the reason why they'll fail if they don't adapt their strategy.

[Commander Cool]

but the arabs were great scientists for example during the middle ages. Then they were way more sophisticated and educated than the europeans (US didn't exist yet). They were skillfull doctors, architects and mathematicians.

You're using their numbers! 1,2,3 etc were an arab invention. Otherwise you would still be using the roman I, II, III etc ...

But someday their culture somehow stalled and even went backwards. I don't know why though. Would need to look that up
Didn't their achievments and inventions stop just at the same time that they became Muslim (around 700 AD)? Nah, that has to be just a coincidence...

[Brozozo]

but the arabs were great scientists for example during the middle ages. Then they were way more sophisticated and educated than the europeans (US didn't exist yet). They were skillfull doctors, architects and mathematicians.

You're using their numbers! 1,2,3 etc were an arab invention. Otherwise you would still be using the roman I, II, III etc ...

But someday their culture somehow stalled and even went backwards. I don't know why though. Would need to look that up
Didn't their achievments and inventions stop just at the same time that they became Muslim (around 700 AD)? Nah, that has to be just a coincidence...

:cantbeli: Wow, it's true, great point!

[Soulhunter]

russianamerican: yes, I've been 3x to the US. And in general I like the country a lot. I just dont like its extremes, neither on the left nor on the right. The ****-producing nutheads as well as the religious-conservative gives me the creeps.

[Bootneck]

let me show you how rediculous this is.


I was watching on TV yesterday, and I heard that someone in a minivan fired a machine gun at a 17-year-old student as he walked down the street, killing him and injuring two other people in a nearby bar.
You have to wonder, what exactly is going through these people's minds? How do they think? How do they reason? The strange thing is, it's not a cultural problem but a genetic one. The only solution is to keep out of their business and keep them out of ours, and use create overwhelming military superiority over them, so that they are no longer more powerful than us , otherwise we're all doomed. That's why I'm an isolationist, I believe some people just shouldn't mix.

BTW that shooting happen in West Philedelphia and is in today's news.
Here's another one.

I was watching on TV a year ago, and I saw how a sniper went around the washington area killing innocent people. You have to wonder, what exactly is going through these people's minds? How do they think? How do they reason? The strange thing is, it's not a cultural problem but a genetic one. The only solution is to keep out of their business and keep them out of ours, and use create overwhelming military superiority over them, so that they are no longer more powerful than us , otherwise we're all doomed. That's why I'm an isolationist, I believe some people just shouldn't mix.

There you think a few people in a country are representative of a race. As for some other arabs you know supporting the insurgents, you would still support the troops after a my lai type incident.


Again, the two examples you cited are aberrant criminal behavior in Western society. We arrest, prosecute and punish people for committing these acts. There's a difference, just like there IS a right and wrong.

[Soulhunter]

brozozo: I don't think so, they were already muslims when they were renowned for their scientific achievements. What were they before they were muslims??

but Islam got distored over time and their culture somewhat regressed ...

[UkrainianAmerican]

russianamerican: yes, I've been 3x to the US. And in general I like the country a lot. I just dont like its extremes, neither on the left nor on the right. The ****-producing nutheads as well as the religious-conservative gives me the creeps.
WELL?
Where did you manage to see the extremists?
The only thing I can think of is you went to Times Square and saw some Green Piss (tm) activists and got scared. :D
I dont blame ya.

[Soulhunter]

I was in Montana and there were some verrrry creepy people :)

As for terrorists, of course I didn't see them. The fundamentalists in the US are more subtle than that! And they have John Ashcroft working for them ;)

[duck]

If Iraqis and Moroccans commit terrorist acts "on behalf of Palestinians", shouldn't Americans and Europeans be rioting every time a Christian is killed or oppressed in Saudi-Arabia, Nigeria or Pakistan? Or is´this the kind of solidarity that is based on what is known as "racism" in the Western World? ( Arabs support arabs, blacks/whites/asians support...?)

[UkrainianAmerican]

If Iraqis and Moroccans commit terrorist acts "on behalf of Palestinians", shouldn't Americans and Europeans be rioting every time a Christian is killed or oppressed in Saudi-Arabia, Nigeria or Pakistan? Or is´this the kind of solidarity that is based on what is known as "racism" in the Western World? ( Arabs support arabs, black/white/asian support...?)
In Sudan 2 million christians got slaughtered.

[cut]

let me show you how rediculous this is.


I was watching on TV yesterday, and I heard that someone in a minivan fired a machine gun at a 17-year-old student as he walked down the street, killing him and injuring two other people in a nearby bar.
You have to wonder, what exactly is going through these people's minds? How do they think? How do they reason? The strange thing is, it's not a cultural problem but a genetic one. The only solution is to keep out of their business and keep them out of ours, and use create overwhelming military superiority over them, so that they are no longer more powerful than us , otherwise we're all doomed. That's why I'm an isolationist, I believe some people just shouldn't mix.

BTW that shooting happen in West Philedelphia and is in today's news.
Here's another one.

I was watching on TV a year ago, and I saw how a sniper went around the washington area killing innocent people. You have to wonder, what exactly is going through these people's minds? How do they think? How do they reason? The strange thing is, it's not a cultural problem but a genetic one. The only solution is to keep out of their business and keep them out of ours, and use create overwhelming military superiority over them, so that they are no longer more powerful than us , otherwise we're all doomed. That's why I'm an isolationist, I believe some people just shouldn't mix.

There you think a few people in a country are representative of a race. As for some other arabs you know supporting the insurgents, you would still support the troops after a my lai type incident.


Again, the two examples you cited are aberrant criminal behavior in Western society. We arrest, prosecute and punish people for committing these acts. There's a difference, just like there IS a right and wrong.

who is there to arrest the people in Iraq? It's a war zone. Beside I don't know what you're trying to say..

[Soulhunter]

duck, well, western christians don't seem to care about those killings ...

it's probably because most westerners are more secular and less fanatic than most muslims. they're rather like we were during the crusades!

[IDFM203]

no, it's because they think that a certain thing is fundamentally wrong (israelo-palestinian problem) and that 'transcends their environment'. They identify themselves with that cause or problem wherever they live.
yes indeed they view it as wrong and focus on it alot, however it doesn’t mean its right.

There are 22 Arab nations and Iran in the middle east and they use tiny Israel as some distraction for all of the own abysmal failings for the most part that these nations have become in this modern world.

Even the UN ranks the Arab world to be the lowest productivity region in the entire world.

In fact I ask, other then finding some oil and making Persian rugs what has these 22 Arab nations produced of world quality for the world market?

So of course they focus on Israel and indeed that is problem, but that is their own problem for doing so more so then anything Israel does.

Yes centuries ago the Arabs were a bit successful (as indeed a lot of cultures and regions can attest to past success) though the fact is that in the past couple of hundred years of modernity, the Arab world has stayed back in those times of yesteryear and because of their own culture and outlook on things, they have failed to bring their nations up to this modern world.

Blaming one little nation like Israel in part for this is simply preposterous (but yet they do it amongst blaming other but themselves)

The fact is that Israel is here to stay and their continued refusal to accept Israel (a lot still don’t) and their focusing on that instead of really trying to fix their own nations problems and trying to find new and different solutions to them, where instead as of yet, they instead mirror in old and useless blaming and that (amongst a few other factors) is only going to keep them in a perpetual state of backwardness that a lot of the Arab world is in today.

IMO, More then anyone else, they have nothing but themselves to blame for this.

Shalom :D

[UkrainianAmerican]

duck, well, western christians don't seem to care about those killings ...

it's probably because most westerners are more secular and less fanatic than most muslims. they're rather like we were during the crusades!
YEP.

[Soulhunter]

russianamerican: how many american christians got bothered by the fact that 2 million sudanese christians got killed? how many american presidents intervened?

the muslims have a much more "we-way" of thinking, the sense of community is greater with them I guess ... they've got a sense of common struggle

[UkrainianAmerican]

russianamerican: how many american christians got bothered by the fact that 2 million sudanese christians got killed? how many american presidents intervened?

the muslims have a much more "we-way" of thinking, the sense of community is greater with them I guess ... they've got a sense of common struggle
You dont have to tell me that.

[Soulhunter]

idfm: I agree that their behavior in recent times isn't what we would call intelligent ... but I can't say why their culture declined so drastically.

I believe there's a reason for everything, but since I don't know the reason in this specific case, I can't really judge.

I think there must be a way that the east and the west can live together and co-operate. The problem is that it's probably not easy and needs a lot of compromises on both sides. I don't believe in a black and white world. And therefore think that the US is bound to fail in Iraq.

[TriggerPuller]

Soulhunter, next time you come to the US give me a shout out I would love to have a little talk with you!!

TP

[cut]

that's not entirely true. the arabs got somewhat stuck in a western medieval mentality, but they weren't always like that. just check your history books (although some americans don't care about history, perhaps because their own only dates back a few hundred years?), but the arabs were great scientists for example during the middle ages. Then they were way more sophisticated and educated than the europeans (US didn't exist yet). They were skillfull doctors, architects and mathematicians.

The PROBLEM is that they STAYED there, while the West improved.



You're using their numbers! 1,2,3 etc were an arab invention. Otherwise you would still be using the roman I, II, III etc ...

WRONG! They were invented by Indians (Modern day Indians Pakis, bangladeshis). When the Caliphate spread to india, they "borrowed" it and claimed as their own. This is a historical fact. But hell what do I know? I am just a stupid fatass American.

actually you are wrong the use of numbers in the arab pre-dates the invasion of india.

[Soulhunter]

TP, was that a threat?

[UkrainianAmerican]

that's not entirely true. the arabs got somewhat stuck in a western medieval mentality, but they weren't always like that. just check your history books (although some americans don't care about history, perhaps because their own only dates back a few hundred years?), but the arabs were great scientists for example during the middle ages. Then they were way more sophisticated and educated than the europeans (US didn't exist yet). They were skillfull doctors, architects and mathematicians.

The PROBLEM is that they STAYED there, while the West improved.



You're using their numbers! 1,2,3 etc were an arab invention. Otherwise you would still be using the roman I, II, III etc ...

WRONG! They were invented by Indians (Modern day Indians Pakis, bangladeshis). When the Caliphate spread to india, they "borrowed" it and claimed as their own. This is a historical fact. But hell what do I know? I am just a stupid fatass American.

actually you are wrong the use of numbers in the arab pre-dates the invasion of india.
Invasion of India by whom?
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Indian_numerals.html

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Soulhunter, next time you come to the US give me a shout out I would love to have a little talk with you!!

TP
Does he get to meet you in the back lot of a little cafe on the other side of the border. :D
Anyways "a little cafe on the other side of the border" that line is out of The Way Of The Gun.

[cut]

that's not entirely true. the arabs got somewhat stuck in a western medieval mentality, but they weren't always like that. just check your history books (although some americans don't care about history, perhaps because their own only dates back a few hundred years?), but the arabs were great scientists for example during the middle ages. Then they were way more sophisticated and educated than the europeans (US didn't exist yet). They were skillfull doctors, architects and mathematicians.

The PROBLEM is that they STAYED there, while the West improved.



You're using their numbers! 1,2,3 etc were an arab invention. Otherwise you would still be using the roman I, II, III etc ...

WRONG! They were invented by Indians (Modern day Indians Pakis, bangladeshis). When the Caliphate spread to india, they "borrowed" it and claimed as their own. This is a historical fact. But hell what do I know? I am just a stupid fatass American.

actually you are wrong the use of numbers in the arab pre-dates the invasion of india.
Invasion of India by whom?
the persians

http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Indian_numerals.html
theory not fact, hence the repetition of the word hypothesies




Ever heard of the sumerians? http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/MESO/SUMER.HTM

you'll never guess where they lived.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Yeah Persians are not arabs.
So what is the point you are trying to make?

[Soulhunter]

And wasn't the Garden of Eden supposed to in Iraq, the land between Euphrates and Tigirs? ;)

[UkrainianAmerican]

And wasn't the Garden of Eden supposed to in Iraq, the land between Euphrates and Tigirs? ;)
GODD THING they got exiled!
:lol:

[IDFM203]

idfm: I agree that their behavior in recent times isn't what we would call intelligent ... but I can't say why their culture declined so drastically.

I believe there's a reason for everything, but since I don't know the reason in this specific case, I can't really judge.

I think there must be a way that the east and the west can live together and co-operate. The problem is that it's probably not easy and needs a lot of compromises on both sides. I don't believe in a black and white world. And therefore think that the US is bound to fail in Iraq.Interesting post.

I personally think the U.S. will also fail in Iraq (though not for a lack of trying) but I don’t think that has anything to do with how they view the U.S. or what not.... like with blaming Israel, those are all excuses where all they are doing is masking up their own backwards outlook on things and their own failings.

To me one of the big problems In the Arab world is their dictatorships that have a stranglehold on their societies and those dictatorships are borne of a backward culture and as such it is they that play a big part that keeps their societies in that backwardness that IMO is a real problem.

Of course IMO after the U.S. went in to neutralize any WMD or chemical weapons threat (and lets not get into this here for that is my opinion) they went about trying to make a better change (removing a dictator) and I think it’s a noble effort but I think after years of living under a dictatorship and a lot of their culture is still mired in a backwardness (with all their tribes and different religious sects etc..) I think the change is too quick and it will fail before it can happen (though I would love to be proven wrong on this)

Of course nothing is black and white and yes the west can compromise and IMO they have, but I think the Arab world and unfortunately also a lot in the west (left wing to be a bit more specific ;) ) choose to blame first the west when they should be first blaming the real problems and that is these dictatorships (and also these hate filled preachers in the mosques) that is the real reason why these nations are as backward as they are (again the UN ranks the Arab world to be the lowest in world productivity then any other region) and no amount of west compromise or west this or west shouldn’t have done that, can change the fact that regardless, those dictatorships play a huge part in why these nations are as backward as they have become.

Removing these dictatorships (which yes I understand isn’t going to happen anytime soon) is a big first step into getting these societies on a road of modernity (though understand that it is indeed a long road but a road that cant ever begin to happen when these dictatorships are still in place)


Oh and lastly I cant leave out these hate filled preachers in the mosques that along with these dictatorships focus their populations on outside powers and constantly blame them rather then ever looking internally and focusing on how they have ONLY or for the MOST part, nothing but themselves to blame for what their nations have become.

I personally am extremely pessimistic for I feel there has been too many years as such and even removing these dictatorships, the Arab world psyche is so imbedded in their backwardness that I cant see this region changing for the better any time soon, no matter what the west does or doesn’t do.

Shalom :D

[Brozozo]

brozozo: I don't think so, they were already muslims when they were renowned for their scientific achievements. What were they before they were muslims??

but Islam got distored over time and their culture somewhat regressed ...

Islam wasn't established as a religion until 650-700 AD. At that point their culture slowed down until it came to a stop in the middle ages and has stayed their since. Before they were Muslims they were probably part of of some polythiest (multiple gods) cult....anyways, not the most remarkable and prosperous of cultures.

[MaDuce]

Arabs yearn for the days when their empire streched from the Middle East across Africa to Spain. So they are trying to use the same mentalty.

[Soulhunter]

IDFM: interesting post as well.

I think one more reason for their hatred is fear (again, that fear may be well-founded or not). Fear that the westernization will destroy their culture, beliefs, identity, whatever ... And one more factor is that in the past centuries their contact with the western world left some trauma/scars too. The west humiliated them on numerous times etc. I think that's one of the reasons they got so phlegmatic.

They (as well as others) should all go to the shrink or a self-motivation course ;)
Or at least need to get kicked in the ass to wake up (But not in a Bush sense of way!!!) and realize that they've fallen in a deep sleep and could do much more for themselves and for the rest of the world.

This whole problem is rather complex and more bright people then me have talked about it and looked for solutions ;)

[Mark_Aspen]

Jeez. There's a whole lot of sociological, anthropological and historical stuff we can boot around. The Arabs are definitely communal or clan based. There's always been the adage, “Me against my brother; my brother and I against my cousin; my cousin and I against the rest of the world.” Othrs hae mentioned the role Islam plays and that can't be over-stated. We (the West) make the mistake and assume that Moslems can or will practice Islam the way we tend to practice Christianity or Judaism; something that can be tucked away at home, or on Saturdays and Sundays. In the US, If your kids go to a private religious school, it still has mandated secular requirements and grooms people to take a role in the mainstream. The aberrations in the US might be the Amish and Mennonites, but they aren't imbued with a fanatical stream. I'm automatically excluding things like the Christian Identity movement because they have nothing to do with faith.

We miss the point that Islam isn't just a religion that is left at the door when you go to work. Compound that with crushing poverty, state leadership that isn't in touch with the Ahmed-in-the-street, and they're anyone's to play with. If Ben-Gurion had gotten to them first there'd be 22 million Zionists controlling the world's oil. Why are non-Arab Moslem states more successful than their Arab "cousins?" I don't think the poverty can be understated. The behavior of South Central LA after Rodney King is another example of mob behavior taking over; same in NYC in 1977. I think the UK had some of the same in the late 90s.

What seperates poor Moslems from the others though, is the seemingly inflexibility imposed on Islam by today's clerics.

[Soulhunter]

brozozo: you're wrong. up until te 15th century or so, the arab culture was very high. and most of that time more sophisticated then the western one.

that's a fact. if you like it or not.

[Soulhunter]

mark, right on the spot!

they, in general, take their religion more serious or more "to the letter" than most christians (or jews? can't speak for them). the west is rather secular with a christian foundation. but most don't really care, and even less would fight!, for their religion.

which in my opinion is a good thing since I believe religious fanatism or arrogance is one of the most dangerous things that can happen to society.

[MaDuce]

They are also a traditionaly nomadic culture who speaks the luanguage of force. Tribes would raid other tribes camps loot their stuff and rape and forcably marry the deafeated cheifs wife/duaghter. So it is only logical that you respond with a launguage they understand.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Jeez. There's a whole lot of sociological, anthropological and historical stuff we can boot around. The Arabs are definitely communal or clan based. There's always been the adage, “Me against my brother; my brother and I against my cousin; my cousin and I against the rest of the world.” Othrs hae mentioned the role Islam plays and that can't be over-stated. We (the West) make the mistake and assume that Moslems can or will practice Islam the way we tend to practice Christianity or Judaism; something that can be tucked away at home, or on Saturdays and Sundays. In the US, If your kids go to a private religious school, it still has mandated secular requirements and grooms people to take a role in the mainstream. The aberrations in the US might be the Amish and Mennonites, but they aren't imbued with a fanatical stream. I'm automatically excluding things like the Christian Identity movement because they have nothing to do with faith.

We miss the point that Islam isn't just a religion that is left at the door when you go to work. Compound that with crushing poverty, state leadership that isn't in touch with the Ahmed-in-the-street, and they're anyone's to play with. If Ben-Gurion had gotten to them first there'd be 22 million Zionists controlling the world's oil. Why are non-Arab Moslem states more successful than their Arab "cousins?" I don't think the poverty can be understated. The behavior of South Central LA after Rodney King is another example of mob behavior taking over; same in NYC in 1977. I think the UK had some of the same in the late 90s.

What seperates poor Moslems from the others though, is the seemingly inflexibility imposed on Islam by today's clerics.
Agreed 100%. But the poverty is not OUR (the Wests) fault.

[cut]

Yeah Persians are not arabs.
So what is the point you are trying to make?

the sumarians are the ancestors of modern day iraqis that the point I@m trying to make.

[Mark_Aspen]

Thanks for the agreements. I thought of a parallel. Sometime during the Ottoman period of rule in Palestine, the Turks paased an ordinance. If, during the Sharav (Hamsin) a man kills his wife, he won't be held accountable for a capital offence. What's interesting is, the British never took the ordinance off the books, and I don't know if we did (Israelis). Though I haven't heard of anyone using the Hamsin defense. The sharav is heated wind that blows out of the desert, complete with particulate matter. The breeze offers no respite from the heat, it makes it worse.

During the mid 1980 Israel suffered a spate of fatal accidents, all during the summer months with drivers falling asleep during long highway stretches. As a result, the Ministry of Transportation had passed an ordinance requiring all cars being imported (there is no domestic production) to have air-conditioning.

My point is, we automatically assume a given set of responses or methods to problem-solving, and that others will apply them too.

[Soulhunter]

Yes, I think you must adapt to the local situation. You can just import a democracy just like that. There must be a way to democratize that part of the world, but I doubt that this invasion will really help that goal. I would be happy to be proven wrong though.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Yeah Persians are not arabs.
So what is the point you are trying to make?

the sumarians are the ancestors of modern day iraqis that the point I@m trying to make.
Which has nothing to do with the fact that Indians invented the numerals we use today, but nice try at covering your ass :)

[UkrainianAmerican]

During the mid 1980 Israel suffered a spate of fatal accidents, all during the summer months with drivers falling asleep during long highway stretches. As a result, the Ministry of Transportation had passed an ordinance requiring all cars being imported (there is no domestic production) to have air-conditioning.


Israel has long higway stretches?
:P
Who wouldve thought?
:lol:

[cut]

Yeah Persians are not arabs.
So what is the point you are trying to make?

the sumarians are the ancestors of modern day iraqis that the point I@m trying to make.
Which has nothing to do with the fact that Indians invented the numerals we use today, but nice try at covering your ass :)

AS I said that is theory. You said that in response to soulhunter pointing out that arabs had given us a lot; writing, astronomy, mathematics, physics read the page on sumarians that I posted.

I'm not covering my "ass" you suggested that hypothetical theory that the number system came from india, which may or may not be true, the numbers we use come from the arab world.

Now if you want to tell me that the invention of the use of numbers came from india, then let me point out that although our alphabet it roman, it is the arabs who invented writing. It's up to you, it's win-win for me either way.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Yeah Persians are not arabs.
So what is the point you are trying to make?

the sumarians are the ancestors of modern day iraqis that the point I@m trying to make.
Which has nothing to do with the fact that Indians invented the numerals we use today, but nice try at covering your ass :)

AS I said that is theory. You said that in response to soulhunter pointing out that arabs had given us a lot; writing, astronomy, mathematics, physics read the page on sumarians that I posted.

I'm not covering my "ass" you suggested that hypothetical theory that the number system came from india, which may or may not be true, the numbers we use come from the arab world.

Now if you want to tell me that the invention of the use of numbers came from india, then let me point out that although our alphabet it roman, it is the arabs who invented writing. It's up to you, it's win-win for me either way.
Its not a theory. Even my P.C. history book said that.

[aktarian]

But someday their culture somehow stalled and even went backwards. I don't know why though. Would need to look that up :roll:


Mongol invasion. Arabs and Persia never recovered from that.

[Soulhunter]

interesting, will look that up. thanks

[cut]

Yeah Persians are not arabs.
So what is the point you are trying to make?

the sumarians are the ancestors of modern day iraqis that the point I@m trying to make.
Which has nothing to do with the fact that Indians invented the numerals we use today, but nice try at covering your ass :)

AS I said that is theory. You said that in response to soulhunter pointing out that arabs had given us a lot; writing, astronomy, mathematics, physics read the page on sumarians that I posted.

I'm not covering my "ass" you suggested that hypothetical theory that the number system came from india, which may or may not be true, the numbers we use come from the arab world.

Now if you want to tell me that the invention of the use of numbers came from india, then let me point out that although our alphabet it roman, it is the arabs who invented writing. It's up to you, it's win-win for me either way.
Its not a theory. Even my P.C. history book said that.

I'll look in to it, the other 5 points still stand, are you going to ignore them as usual?

[UkrainianAmerican]

Yeah Persians are not arabs.
So what is the point you are trying to make?

the sumarians are the ancestors of modern day iraqis that the point I@m trying to make.
Which has nothing to do with the fact that Indians invented the numerals we use today, but nice try at covering your ass :)

AS I said that is theory. You said that in response to soulhunter pointing out that arabs had given us a lot; writing, astronomy, mathematics, physics read the page on sumarians that I posted.

I'm not covering my "ass" you suggested that hypothetical theory that the number system came from india, which may or may not be true, the numbers we use come from the arab world.

Now if you want to tell me that the invention of the use of numbers came from india, then let me point out that although our alphabet it roman, it is the arabs who invented writing. It's up to you, it's win-win for me either way.
Its not a theory. Even my P.C. history book said that.

I'll look in to it, the other 5 points still stand, are you going to ignore them as usual?
What points?

[IDFM203]

Yes, I think you must adapt to the local situation. You can just import a democracy just like that. There must be a way to democratize that part of the world, but I doubt that this invasion will really help that goal.I cant think of any other way to do it then to invade and remove that dictator (or removing other dictators)

Now even that cant guarantee a democracy (and yes as I have explained before, I as well think this is doomed to failure) but it can at least be the best effort in doing so

I mean how do you see it happening other then forcibly removing a dictator?

But yes as I have explained before, I think it wont happen due to their backward psyche that they have been living with in that region for a number of years now, in part due to their own backward dictatorships and in part to their own backward culture which most follow (where it is steeped in traditions and customs of another era in time) which if we aren’t being PC about, is a very backward culture where it makes its people that follow it, have a backward outlook on all that they do and how they govern themselves even if these dictatorships were removed.





On a less "serious" matter……… ;)



As a result, the Ministry of Transportation had passed an ordinance requiring all cars being imported (there is no domestic production) to have air-conditioning.
well that isn’t exactly true ;)

I believe in the 70's Israel came out with their own locally produced car.

I cant remember the name but I am almost positive that there was in fact an Israeli made car.

If any one can find a pic or info on it I would be most appreciative.

Shalom :D

[todd]

Read a good book once, that listed 5 symptoms of Countries you should steer clear of. These symptoms were:

1. Reliance on a tribal system (don't give that job to the best suited person, give it to good ole Uncle Ali!).
2. An all encompassing, oppressive monotheistic religion (Sure God wanted us all to be miserable until the day we die right?).
3. Low value placed on education (Name a world beating Saudi university).
4. Low value placed on work (Hard work being for the poor and immigrants of course - corruption is much more satisfying).
5. Low value placed on women (Hey, why not write-off 50% of your potential work force in one fell swoop?).

Just thought they were good points for discussion. Wonder how many symptoms the Middle-East has?

[cut]

Yeah Persians are not arabs.
So what is the point you are trying to make?

the sumarians are the ancestors of modern day iraqis that the point I@m trying to make.
Which has nothing to do with the fact that Indians invented the numerals we use today, but nice try at covering your ass :)

AS I said that is theory. You said that in response to soulhunter pointing out that arabs had given us a lot; writing, astronomy, mathematics, physics read the page on sumarians that I posted.

I'm not covering my "ass" you suggested that hypothetical theory that the number system came from india, which may or may not be true, the numbers we use come from the arab world.

Now if you want to tell me that the invention of the use of numbers came from india, then let me point out that although our alphabet it roman, it is the arabs who invented writing. It's up to you, it's win-win for me either way.
Its not a theory. Even my P.C. history book said that.

I'll look in to it, the other 5 points still stand, are you going to ignore them as usual?
What points?


You said that in response to soulhunter pointing out that arabs had given us a lot; writing, astronomy, mathematics, physics read the page on sumarians that I posted.

I'm not covering my "ass" you suggested that hypothetical theory that the number system came from india, which may or may not be true, the numbers we use come from the arab world.

Now if you want to tell me that the invention of the use of numbers came from india, then let me point out that although our alphabet it roman, it is the arabs who invented writing. It's up to you, it's win-win for me either way.

those points

[S'13]

I believe in the 70's Israel came out with their own locally produced car.

I cant remember the name but I am almost positive that there was in fact an Israeli made car.

If any one can find a pic or info on it I would be most appreciative.

Shalom :D


The Susita :D
http://www.britmandate.com/carmel.jpg

http://voenavto.almanacwhf.ru/slovo/image001.jpg


Carmel and Susita were fiberglass-shelled cars that were made popular in Israel during the 60's and 70's mainly because Government agencies were forced to buy them, thus releasing onto the market thousands of low-priced second hand vehicles. Although their style and finish left something to be desired, Carmel/Susita's incorporation of Ford and Hillman engines made them reliable cars which kept their value for years. The manufacturing of these cars ceased during the 80's, and Israel has currently no car industry

[rokus2595]

I have been pondering this for some time. Is it possible that the biggest problem with Iraq, and the Arab world in general is their midset and outlook? It seems that this is a good explanation for the lack of Western style democracy throughout the Arab world.
Your opinions?


democracy is the doctrine where the majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group. The problem in Iraq is that the Americans don't want that to happen, they want to give the illusion of a democratic process while in reality retaining control over every thing else. A democratic iraq would mean having the Iraqis choose their own leaders, yet the Americans are not allowing that , because supposedly, the iraqis are not ready yet. I wonder, ready for what?

ready to elect their own leaders? or
ready to accept those appointed by the Americans as their leaders....what the uprising has shown is the Iraqis are for sure NOT ready to accept those picked by the Americans as their leaders, and rightly so.

[Universal]

My barber is from Iraq, he backs the US all the way in this war. He was a soldier in the first gulf war, one night him and other guys escaped their base camp and surrendered to the americans. He hates Saddam very much and he's happy the americans finally got rid of him, but he also knows that the americans didn't go to Iraq just to get Saddam and free the iraqi people. I believe him, why would you spend billions of dollars, waste lives from your own country and go through all the sacrifices of war unless you want something in return or you f***ed with something and you're trying to fix it.

[One?]

You people don't understand do you? NO ONE WANTS TO BE OCCUPIED. they don't give a fuk if you are trying to buil iraq or not. Their oil can build iraq.


You kicked saddam out, good, now leave. thats what most iraqis are saying. No one is denying democracy, but they sure will not let go of their culture just because the US says so.

[Universal]

You people don't understand do you? NO ONE WANTS TO BE OCCUPIED. they don't give a fuk if you are trying to buil iraq or not. Their oil can build iraq.


You kicked saddam out, good, now leave. thats what most iraqis are saying. No one is denying democracy, but they sure will not let go of their culture just because the US says so.

You are one of the very few wise men on these forums. I salute you.

[Truthsayer]

Although especially in the US there are worrying signs of christian fundamentalism
Who make up what, 0.0001% of the US population? They're so small in number they're not even worth mentioning. And also, they don't intentionally kill civilians.

According to the 'Moral Majority' they represent(ed) 70 million voters in the US of A.

Take it up with Rev. Jerry Falwell.

Note: The Moral Majority was officially disbanded 1989, but their structure is very much alive, under the guidance of Pat Robertson.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Majority

[GrimmyRX]

Although especially in the US there are worrying signs of christian fundamentalism
Who make up what, 0.0001% of the US population? They're so small in number they're not even worth mentioning. And also, they don't intentionally kill civilians.

*cough* KKK *cough*

[chauncy republicans]

They seem to have a fetish with killing themselves. 98% of the world's terrorist groups are muslim/arab,
Prove it! Post sources!

[UkrainianAmerican]

They seem to have a fetish with killing themselves. 98% of the world's terrorist groups are muslim/arab,
Prove it! Post sources!
Have you been living under a rock?

[martinexsquaddie]

Smarter people than I, claim islam ran into the buffers in the 1500 or so when the Ventians ( city state of venice) kicked turkish butt in a naval battle so stopping the westward expansion of the ottoman Empire.
That combined with nothing similar to the renassiance aka the age of reason. put a big dent in islamalic interlectuall development.
By the time of the 19th century islamic states became the football of european nations empire building. After ww1 ottoman empire fell apart,
after ww11 the state of israel imposed by the west and failure of pan arab unity Failing miserbly to retake arab land and lose jersualem into the bargin.
So fundamentalists have this religion which is THE ONE TRUE FAITH but arab muslim countrys are either poverty stricken or rich and ineffective saudi isn't exactly seen as a world power is it?
So there very very angry and not really equipped with critical thinking tools to help. Jewish and christian traditions encourage arguement.
As far as I know islam encourages rote learning and obeidiance not a good way to encourage innovation

[EchoSierra2]

Let's not forget to put in place a WalMart. Install Pepsi Machines all over the Place and Giv'em MTV. Let's show them that TRUE POWER is in Capitalism, not in straping TNT or C4 on thier chests. Forget those 27 virgins in the after life, get'em now drink some pepsi and watch Yo MTV Raps. In one Generation they will see the error in their ways.

[soldierandy]

get'em now drink some pepsi and watch Yo MTV Raps

I'd rather go with hardcore Islam :lol:

[martinexsquaddie]

pass the c4 overcoat I feel a jihad coming on :roll:

[MaDuce]

Its a pretty good educated as the KKK has 3000 members but in the middle east it seems that they are starting weapons training in every preschool.