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04-09-2004, 10:37 AM
'Missile error' led to RAF deaths

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38996000/jpg/_38996159_patriot203.jpg http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38997000/jpg/_38997751_gr4_203.jpg

Known faults in the US Army's Patriot missile system may have caused an RAF plane to be accidentally shot down in Iraq last year, the BBC has found.

The US originally suggested a problem with the Tornado aircraft itself led to the friendly fire incident near Kuwait.

But Radio 4's Today programme has uncovered evidence that the US unit which fired the missile knew there was an error in the Patriot system.

RAF findings on how the two airmen died have not been made public.

An RAF report on the March 2003 incident is believed to have been forwarded to the Ministry of Defence but the MoD says it cannot comment until the report is finalised.

Journalist

The two airmen killed - Flight Lieutenant David Rhys Williams and Flight Lieutenant Kevin Barry Main - both served with 9 Squadron, RAF Marham.



The army Patriots were mistakenly identifying friendly aircraft as enemy tactical ballistic missiles
Robert Riggs
Embedded US journalist

US journalist Robert Riggs was embedded with the Patriot unit which shot down their RAF Tornado.

He told the Today programme how the US Army responded to the incident.

"The soldiers that we talked to said that the British Tornado was identified as an enemy missile and the story that the army put out to its own soldiers in the hours after that incident was they were blaming the British flight crew."

Mr Riggs said the US Army claimed the RAF airmen had not turned on equipment which tells radar systems like patriot whether a plane is a friend or an enemy.

"But what the army never disclosed publicly at the time was that the army Patriots were mistakenly identifying friendly aircraft as enemy tactical ballistic missiles", he added.

Robert Riggs told BBC reporter Gordon Correra such misidentifications were occurring dozens of times a day in the army unit he was with.

Lessons learned

Ted Postol, Professor of Science Technology and National Security Policy at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and former scientific advisor to the US Navy, told Today that aircraft - whether identified as friend or foe - do not look like missiles.

"A ballistic missile travels at higher altitudes and at higher speeds and in either an ascending or descending trajectory, which is highly predictable.


These accidents have shown that this is a problem with the Patriot system, not with pilot error, not with identification systems
Philip Coyle
Former US assistant secretary of defence

"So there's no way, if they accurate track information, that they would misidentify an aircraft or a ballistic missile", he said.

Philip Coyle, a US assistant secretary of defence for testing and evaluation between 1994 and 2001, told the programme: "The Patriot system is designed to be pretty much automatic.

"These accidents have shown that this is a problem with the Patriot system, not with pilot error, not with identification systems."

Gordon Correra said a "lessons learned" report put together by the US Army after the war confirms that non-existent ballistic missiles appeared in the Patriot system.

The document also points to a lack of training for operators on how to deal with problems and the fact that Patriots had never been tested across the kind of ranges and in the kind of confused airspace experienced in the Gulf.

It says knowledge that false identification of ballistic missiles was occurring was not shared by the Patriot units that first operated in the Gulf with those that arrived later.


Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/uk/3613319.stm

Published: 2004/04/09 08:26:31 GMT

© BBC MMIV


:fork:

shrek
04-09-2004, 11:16 AM
I cannot say much because I work on this system but that's not how it happened and that has been published as well. These "officially" published reports are always forgotten when someone can sensationalize the story a little with omissions.


Imagine a radar with over 400 tarets currently in it's view. One target consistently fails to ID itself and has nothing turned on to ID it as friendly. That target then begins exhibiting missile-like characteristics and is diving toward the 1000 or so of your fellow soldiers camped nearby that you are protecting. What would you do? Fratracide happens!


Funny, no one ever mentions the 9 missiles that we shot down saving countless lives including those of a room full of our highest commanders. The debris from that missile landed on the roof of the command center it got so close. Funny ow that is never mentioned in the news! Why you ask? Because it isn't sensational and doesn't sell penile disfunction pills or whatever ad is attached to the page or station that the story is running on!!!

cut
04-09-2004, 11:46 AM
I cannot say much because I work on this system but that's not how it happened and that has been published as well. These "officially" published reports are always forgotten when someone can sensationalize the story a little with omissions.

First off a little disclaimer.. I don't claim to know what happened, I'm just pointing out my opinion.

I seems to me to be asking for trouble to put out anything less than a decent explanation for an event that is of obvious importance to brits.

Did you work with these recently? I was under the impression that working patriots would be a job for less widely experienced soldiers.



Imagine a radar with over 400 tarets currently in it's view. One target consistently fails to ID itself and has nothing turned on to ID it as friendly. That target then begins exhibiting missile-like characteristics and is diving toward the 1000 or so of your fellow soldiers camped nearby that you are protecting. What would you do? Fratracide happens!

Do you get missiles travelling as slow as the tornado was?
There were two other planes from that squadron flying so close that they had to move evasively to avoid the missile, and were close enough when it exploded to see and feel it? Do missiles fly in such close proximity? Were the other two aircraft IDed? If yes why fire so close to them? And if not was that two missiles through the net for the patriot team?

I am not relying on second hand information for this, that is what the wing leader from that flight said, because the life of the 9 squadron pilots was was being followed before and after the incident for the BBC documentary "fighting the war".



Funny, no one ever mentions the 9 missiles that we shot down saving countless lives including those of a room full of our highest commanders. The debris from that missile landed on the roof of the command center it got so close. Funny ow that is never mentioned in the news! Why you ask? Because it isn't sensational and doesn't sell penile disfunction pills or whatever ad is attached to the page or station that the story is running on!!!

Every missile that was shot down was mentioned, mostly anti-shipping missiles weren't they? I do remember hearing of one landing near the command center. The reason why they don't make a deal out of that now is because no-one died. Am I right in thinking an american plane was shot down by a patriot missile aswell?

This story was on the BBC they have no ads whatsoever. So selling penile disfunction pills doesn't come into it. ;)

Truthsayer
04-09-2004, 03:22 PM
Once again, instead of an goverment saying "Sorry, we ****ed up, we will correct this" they blaim the victim. Nice job!


And people ask why I'm cynical.

shrek
04-09-2004, 07:35 PM
The government has said "Sorry, we ****ed up", so many times that I am tired of hearing about it. Why haven't you heard it enough? Because, once again, it is not popular news.

We are not blaming anybody. However, if you can help us find another word to say that an RAF pilot broke approx. six rules of the theater, Left his corridor and all this while he knew he was being tracked by PATRIOT, let me know. It's not blame, it's fault, and we share it equally!