a sincere question

[Soulhunter]

can the US ever be wrong in anything? or is that inconceivable for most americans? they couldn't be blamed though, since their government definitely thinks they've got all wisdom of the world (if not directly from God even ...)

this is not meant to be a flame, I'm really interested.

[Whistler]

No.

[Kicius]

Life is much easier, when you have faith.

[Maine Finn]

can the US ever be wrong in anything? or is that inconceivable for most americans? they couldn't be blamed though, since their government definitely thinks they've got all wisdom of the world (if not directly from God even ...)

this is not meant to be a flame, I'm really interested.

Dear Lord. Are the general populace to be blamed for the errors of our Government? Just because we elect these people doesn't necessarily mean we agree and support everything they do. Hell, there is quite a bit of dissent around campus alone about the way the Government is proceeding with the current foreign policy.

Yes, the US can and has been wrong. I can't speak for the other Americans on the Forum, but I'm certainly not out to be staunchly "Pro-American" at the expense of logic and reason.

Maybe you might consider that before you post next time. Just a thought.

~Emily

[TriggerPuller]

can the US ever be wrong in anything? or is that inconceivable for most americans? they couldn't be blamed though, since their government definitely thinks they've got all wisdom of the world (if not directly from God even ...)

this is not meant to be a flame, I'm really interested.You really need to visit Montana more often cause you really havent got a clue about how we think. Give specific examples not broad generalizations!

TP

[cut]

We're all guilty of generalisations.

[fdt]

can the US ever be wrong in anything? or is that inconceivable for most americans? they couldn't be blamed though, since their government definitely thinks they've got all wisdom of the world (if not directly from God even ...)

this is not meant to be a flame, I'm really interested.Sweet provocative naivity... all but sincere.

[Maine Finn]

We're all guilty of generalisations.

Aye, but if we're able to provide reasons for certain generalisations (which is fairly hard) we stand less chance of being viewed as ignorantly biassed.

Or perhaps we might avoid generalisations entirely (good luck!) and simply pick on the individual(s) who are responsible for whatever it is that is being discussed. It's unfair, obviously, to condemn an entire people for the crimes of a few.

That said, I'm sure it's going to continue to happen, as it has in the past. History will repeat itself time and again, because some people choose not to learn the lessons of past mistakes.

Just my two bits on that. I'm going to catch a bus North. See you all later.

~Emily

[fdt]

We're all guilty of generalisations.Well, it's a general Discussion forum... anyway.

[Tributal]

When I lived in the U.S. I met a few people who could not take any sort of constructive criticism of the U.S. They saw it as though the very idea of questioning anything about the U.S. was by default anti-American sentiment. I tried to explain to them that no country is perfect, but the best way of preventing a country from being the best it can is to stop questioning it.

As citizens (of whatever country) we should always try to find our country's weaknesses and try to improve on them. It is only when we stand back and proclaim that it is perfect and that nothing can be improved that we're bound to go the same way as the Roman Empire (and many other lesser known countries, states and empires.)

A society that fears its critics is destined for failure (remember the USSR or the DDR anyone?)

[BlackRain]

Yes, Americans are wrong all the time. We pick the wrong allies. :D

Seriously, this is a good question. Europeans tend to think of Americans as buffoons who are poorly educated on world affairs/history and can not understand why Americans are so successful.

These misquided folks assume that Americans believe themselves right about everything. However, most Americans do not feel that way.

I evalute my thoughts/beliefs about Iraq and the war on terrorism daily.

When you are in the spotlight of world affairs, everyone is scrutizing and hyperanalyzing every American decision and how it affects on their particular country.

[Tributal]

The tricky thing too (and this is true for most countries) is that as administrations change the foreign policies change too - and at times that can really screw things up (someone who was a dear friend one day finds himself shut out the next - which makes for some really "hurt feelings.")

Also, though the US is getting better at it a lot of foreign policies were made to cure current problems without looking at the long-term results of said actions. Kind a like Nixon would have said that "F*ck it, the next guy needs to fix that mess." President Ford manages to keep things going, then Carter does his thing. Then there's Reagan, followed by Bush Sr, and then Clinton and now GW.

Well, when you keep swapping the policy between the Democrats and the Republicans, and always blaming the last guy for the failures of the current administration, you manage to create some very real problems on the international scene. Of course, this is true for all nations that have a democratic or republican system, only the U.S has much more influence than most so the waves spread so much further, and do at times end up being Tsunamis on some foreign shores.

[ibstolidude]

We're all guilty of generalisations.
true but we are not all guilty of acting on them.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

We're all guilty of generalisations.

What?, do you mean like...


concentration camps during the boer war? Don't be silly!

Doesn't that agree with your David Irving revisionist history?.

Well soulhunter, that ranks as one of the stupidest questions i've seen posted here. Pure flame war bait. I suggest this thread gets shut down before it gets out of control.

Oh, and what country do you come from soulhunter?.

Tell you what tributal, you tell me what country you come from, i'll relentlessly critisize it, never pointing out any good either you, or it has achieved and we'll see how that makes you feel. How about that then?.

[HELEX]

As far as some Americans in this Forum are concerned, they think they are right on everything.
Even after the recent events in Iraq they are talking of "single Terrorists" attacking the Coalition troops.
And they still believe they are the "liberators" of Iraq.
(And they still believe in this "wrong intelligence" story about WMD.)

But of course im talking not about all americans in this Place, some of them are not stupid.

[Ratamacue]

As far as some Americans in this Forum are concerned, they think they are right on everything.
Even after the recent events in Iraq they are talking of "single Terrorists" attacking the Coalition troops.
And they still believe they are the "liberators" of Iraq.
(And they still believe in this "wrong intelligence" story about WMD.)

But of course im talking not about all americans in this Place, some of them are not stupid.

And you don't think you're right about everything? Of course you're going to say you don't think you are, but that would be a lie, just like the WMD story.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Dear Lord. Are the general populace to be blamed for the errors of our Government? Just because we elect these people doesn't necessarily mean we agree and support everything they do.

Well good point Finn, but unfortuneatly alot of user's forget that. Civillians are not responsible for the actions of there military/government. They are responsible how-ever for electing those people into power.

Example:
Theres a few Iraqi's who are going to try to charge the US with war crimes. Wether its true or not is up to the courts to decide, which happens to be in Belguim. The article gets posted and hears one response.


SeanAshi wrote:
Belgium...bunch of f*** wankers

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11979

Did the people of Belgium uprise in Iraq and tell the Iraqi's to charge the Americans with war crimes? I think not....

Now of course this is just one really un-educated person who's probably lost touch with reality, I dont take ones opinion as the "whole countrys opinion". I wish I could say the same for others though...

[HELEX]

@Ratamacue

Well, of course I think Im right about everything. Like you....

Brain is really fair distributed among the People, everybody thinks he has enough. :D

[BlackRain]

WMD Revisted:

Helex seems to believe the Saddam did not have WMD.

Saddam has used chemical weapons both against Iran and his own people. In 1988 Saddam also used mustard and nerve agents against Iraqi Kurds at Halabja in northern Iraq. The only question that remains is, "Where are the WMD stockpiles now". We will eventually find them, they can just disappear into thin air.

http://www.kdp.pp.se/bad0080.jpg
March 17, 1988. Halabja Chemical Weapon Attack

If Saddam did not have WMD, Helex, then what caused this?

[Haiw]

Note the date.

[Truthsayer]

BlackRain >> And wouldn't he had invaded Kuwait and therefor de-stabelised the region, he would still have 'two thumbs up' from CIAs reports to the white house.


Point being? [...we all know Saddam was a harsch dictator. Even when he was recieving money and equipment from the US...]

[BlackRain]

What about the date.

The issue is whether or not WMD existed in the first place in Iraq.

There are alot of folks in Europe now that deny they even existed.

The U.N. , weapons inspectors, most European countries, and Saddam all publically stated that Iraq had WMD stockpiles after the Gulf War.

The question remains, "Where are the WMD now?"

Why are Iraqi scientists being killed by Saddam loyalists in Iraq currently for cooperating with Coalition forces if it is a non-issue.

Example: Silence on deaths of Iraqi scientists troubles lawmaker http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040405-120924-9364r.htm

[Universal]

WMD Revisted:

Helex seems to believe the Saddam did not have WMD.

Saddam has used chemical weapons both against Iran and his own people. In 1988 Saddam also used mustard and nerve agents against Iraqi Kurds at Halabja in northern Iraq. The only question that remains is, "Where are the WMD stockpiles now". We will eventually find them, they can just disappear into thin air.

http://www.kdp.pp.se/bad0080.jpg
March 17, 1988. Halabja Chemical Weapon Attack

If Saddam did not have WMD, Helex, then what caused this?


Well who do you think supplied him with these weapons????????????? YOUR F****ING GOVERNMENT!

[Tributal]

Tell you what tributal, you tell me what country you come from, i'll relentlessly critisize it, never pointing out any good either you, or it has achieved and we'll see how that makes you feel. How about that then?.In the example I used I wasn't relentlessly criticizing the U.S. (you might have noticed that I said that "I met a few people.")

One of the things I discussed with one of these people was the social welfare system in the U.S. My point was that it needs to be revamped as it's not effective, it's being abused, and that many who really need the help are not getting it. Also, healthcare in the U.S. is expensive and unless you can afford it you don't have access to the best care. (Let's not get into a discussion on HMO's, okay.) In the discussion I was comparing and contrasting it against my native Sweden. But, this was apparently out of line. Instead of discussing how the system could be improved I was met with a list of all the freedoms Americans enjoy. Not that that would solve the problem, but whatever.

I know that there are many members of these boards (some are Swedish) who love nothing else than to spout out what's wrong about America and (as you mentioned) to do so without offering any ideas for improvements or giving credit where credit is due. My point however was that some of our U.S. members are able to sift through valid points (and disregard the pure BS that some people keep throwing at them) and to acknowledge where improvements can be made. Then there are others who would take a "Rosie O'Donnel is fat"-joke by anyone who isn't born in the U.S. as a deep insult. See what I'm saying?

Not that this will matter much to you, but I lived, worked and paid taxes in the U.S (sent in my last 1040NR-EZ in January) for the past 6 years, and I was there to share the grief of 9/11. And both through my job and on a personal level I helped others cope with what happened. Though I wasn't a citizen (or even a resident) I was outraged by what had taken place. I could see why the U.S. was attacked, and how it possibly could have prevented many many years ago, but that has nothing to do with the current situation. There are many things I disagree with in the U.S., but there are many things that I whole-heartedly support (the same is true for Sweden.) I have friends who I met in the U.S. who are now in Iraq, and had I been able to I would probably have joined them myself.

Feel free to rag on Sweden all you want - I'll more than likely agree with a lot of what you can come up with, but you might want to look into my other posts on these forums for a better view of my stance on the U.S. You're better off picking a more deserving target for your anger/frustration.

[HELEX]

All remaining WMDs were desroyed by the UN after desert Storm.
And as far as I know the were supplyed by US and he had the american ok to use them....

And they vetoed all affords of the UN to condamn their use in in a resolution.

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/18/features-crogan1.php

http://www.theinsider.org/mailing/article.asp?id=241

http://www.worldmessenger.20m.com/weapons.html

http://www.oilempire.us/saddam.html

http://www.ithaca.edu/politics/gagnon/talks/us-iraq.htm

So you better avoid this argument in Future rofl

[BlackRain]

WMD Revisted:

Helex seems to believe the Saddam did not have WMD.

Saddam has used chemical weapons both against Iran and his own people. In 1988 Saddam also used mustard and nerve agents against Iraqi Kurds at Halabja in northern Iraq. The only question that remains is, "Where are the WMD stockpiles now". We will eventually find them, they can just disappear into thin air.

http://www.kdp.pp.se/bad0080.jpg
March 17, 1988. Halabja Chemical Weapon Attack

If Saddam did not have WMD, Helex, then what caused this?


Well who do you think supplied him with these weapons????????????? YOUR F****ING GOVERNMENT!

Your jealousy, hatred, ignorance, or poor schooling blinds you to history.

You see my friend your statement is not well support by fact.



Countries That Supplied Iraq

KEY

A = nuclear weapon program
B = biological weapon program
C = chemical weapon program
R = rocket program
K = conventional weapons, military logistics, supplies at the Iraqi Ministry of Defense, and building of military plants



USA

1. Honeywell (R, K)

2. Spectra Physics (K)

3. Semetex (R)

4. TI Coating (A, K)

5. Unisys (A, K)

6. Sperry Corp. (R, K)

7. Tektronix (R, A)

8. Rockwell (K)

9. Leybold Vacuum Systems (A)

10. Finnigan-MAT-US (A)

11. Hewlett-Packard (A, R, K)

12. Dupont (A)

13. Eastman Kodak (R)

14. American Type Culture Collection (B)

15. Alcolac International (C)

16. Consarc (A)

17. Carl Zeiss - U.S (K)

18. Cerberus (LTD) (A)

19. Electronic Associates (R)

20. International Computer Systems (A, R, K)

21. Bechtel (K)

22. EZ Logic Data Systems, Inc. (R)

23. Canberra Industries Inc. (A)

24. Axel Electronics Inc. (A)

"In addition to these 24 companies home-based in the USA are 50 subsidiaries of foreign enterprises which conducted their arms business with Iraq from within the US. Also designated as suppliers for Iraq's arms programs (A, B, C & R) are the US Ministries of Defense, Energy, Trade and Agriculture as well as the Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos and Sandia National Laboratories."



China
1. China Wanbao Engineering Company (A, C, K)

2. Huawei Technologies Co. Ltd (K)

3. China State Missile Company (R)



France

1. Commissariat a l'Energie Atomique (A)

2. Sciaky (A)

3. Thomson CSF (A, K)

4. Aerospatiale and Matra Espace (R)

5. Cerbag (A)

6. Protec SA (C)

7. Thales Group (A)

8. Societé Général pour les Techniques Nouvelles (A)



Great Britain

1. Euromac Ltd-Uk (A)

2. C. Plath-Nuclear (A)

3. Endshire Export Marketing (A)

4. International Computer Systems (A, R, K)

5. MEED International (A, C)

6. Walter Somers Ltd. (R)

7. International Computer Limited (A, K)

8. Matrix Churchill Corp. (A)

9. Ali Ashour Daghir (A)

10. International Military Services (R) (part of the UK Ministry of Defence)

11. Sheffield Forgemasters (R)

12. Technology Development Group (R)

13. International Signal and Control (R)

14. Terex Corporation (R)

15. Inwako (A)

16. TMG Engineering (K)

17. XYY Options, Inc (A)



USSR/Russia

1. Soviet State Missile Co. (R)

2. Niikhism (R)

3. Mars Rotor (R)

4. Livinvest (R)

5. Russia Aviatin Trading House (K)

6. Amsar Trading (K)



Japan

1. Fanuc (A)

2. Hammamatsu Photonics KK (A)

3. NEC (A)

4. Osaka (A)

5. Waida (A)



The Netherlands

1.Melchemie B.V. (C)

2. KBS Holland B.V. (C)

3. Delft Instruments N.V. (K)



Belgium

1. Boehler Edelstahl (A)

2. NU Kraft Mercantile Corporation (C)

3. OIP Instrubel (K)

4. Phillips Petroleum (C)

5. Poudries Réunies Belge SA (R)

6. Sebatra (A)

7. Space Research Corp. (R)



Spain

1. Donabat (R)

2. Treblam (C)

3. Zayer (A)



Sweden

1. ABB (A)

2. Saab-Scania (R)


Source: Die Tageszeitung, No. 6934, 19 Dec 2002, page 3. See the original in German.

Note: The 80 German companies named in the dossier were not included in this list.

What about Germany's Role in Weapons of Mass Destruction??

The biggest offending European nation in supplying illicit arms to Iraq is Germany, reports G2, even while Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has joined France's Prime Minister Jacque Chirac as the leading cheerleaders for giving international arms inspectors more time to determine if Iraq is in violation of United Nations resolutions.

According to the latest issue of G2 Bulletin, Iraq's own reports to the United Nations Security Council show that German firms made up the bulk of suppliers for Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs.

"Even while playing the role of peacemaker looking only for solid proof of arms violations by Iraq, German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder knows the truth – that he and his country have provided much of the equipment and expertise Iraq has needed to reinvigorate its efforts to build weapons of mass destruction," the newsletter reports.

The German intelligence agency BND is believed to have served as a silent partner in a Hamburg front company, Water Engineering Trading or WET, which facilitated the export of materiel needed for such arms, the report says. Half of the precursor materials and a majority of the tools and the technology for their conversion into weapons were sold to Iraq by German firms -- both prior to and after the 1991 Gulf War.

The German firm Preussag is the leading supplier of chemical agents and production equipment to Iraq, according to documents turned over to the U.N. by Baghdad. Preussag is a subsidiary of Europe's largest travel agent and tour operator TUI. It is also a company that has been very supportive of Schroeder. In early 1998, when Schroeder was running for re-election as prime minister of the state of Lower Saxony, he had the state buy 51 percent of Preussag's troubled steel division to the tune of $500 million, claiming that 12,000 jobs were at stake. Schroeder went on to win the crucial election, setting him up to become chancellor.

Included on the Iraqi suppliers' lists are other German corporate names: Hoechst, Daimler-Benz, Siemens, Kloeckner, Carl Zeiss, Schott Glas, Karl Kolb-Pilot Plant and WTB (Walter Thosti Boswau). The WTB undertaking was supported by a credit guarantee for several hundred million German marks by Hermes, a German government export and credit insurer. Rhein-Bayern supplied Iraq with eight mobile toxicological labs housed in sand-colored, camouflage-painted Magirus trucks.

Germany may be the biggest offender in Europe, but it is not alone as a weapons supplier to Iraq. Western intelligence sources marked more than 20 countries as "Iraqi arms embargo busters" and the list could be longer, according to G2. The suppliers have been using mainly Syrian or Lebanese ports as ways for passage to Iraq.

According to U.N. officials and American military intelligence collected by the Defense Intelligence Agency, "a powder-like agent" entered Iraq legally late in 2002, G2 reports. The U.N. had approved the import of 25 metric tons of a material designated for the Samara pharmaceutical industry in the framework of the "oil for food program." The material, called Aerosil, is an important ingredient in the manufacturing of various types of chemical weapons, including nerve gas. More than 100 metric tons of this material, manufactured in Germany, were bought and delivered just before the first Persian Gulf War. A sensitive British intelligence document claims that a similar product, described as "silicon diaroxide," arrived in Iraq more recently. Analysts say that this "powder-like substance" is also used to produce the VX agent capable of endangering the lives of persons even when wearing protective suits. According to the British, there is no way to determine the exact quantities of VX in Iraqi hands, G2 reports.

Croatia, Serbia, Albania, Slovakia, Macedonia and Montenegro continue to provide Iraq with conventional weapons, according to G2 sources. Ukraine is believed to have sold more than $100 million worth of military equipment to Iraq.

[Tributal]

All remaining WMDs were desroyed by the UN after desert Storm.All they could find. I doubt the UN found all WMD's that Iraq possesed. However, I also doubt the Iraqi WMD thread was as severe prior to the invasion as we were lead to believe.

I will not get into a discussion on whether or not the WMD threat was a valid reason for invasion. Iraq is no longer under Saddam's rule so the question of whether or not we should've gone in in the first place is a moot point.

[fdt]

All remaining WMDs were desroyed by the UN after desert Storm.
And as far as I know the were supplyed by US and he had the american ok to use them....

And they vetoed all affords of the UN to condamn their use in in a resolution.

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/03/18/features-crogan1.php

http://www.theinsider.org/mailing/article.asp?id=241

http://www.worldmessenger.20m.com/weapons.html

http://www.oilempire.us/saddam.html

http://www.ithaca.edu/politics/gagnon/talks/us-iraq.htm

So you better avoid this argument in Future rofl Yeah condemning this and condemning that... that makes all of us feel better... Our consciousness needs such a relief after what we did... What we did? We all have created a monster... We are all white stupid people... German companies have sold Saddam chemicals and chemical installations (agricultural :lol: ), Yanks provided him with financing and bio-weapons components, French have sold him nuclear technologies and a *****load of weapons, so did Russians, Czechs, Poles, Italians, Brazilians... etc

Now there is a moronic bidding, who has proposed more resolutions condemning... ufffff.... and who has vetoed more resolutions condemning..... c'mon.... I ask... who did something, any little thing to stop that MOFO before GW I? Huh....? Enlighten me...

What are we doing now to repair what we screwed before...? Some shake their spears, some shake their vetoes. Some try to make business and some collateral democracy, some jealous they can't do business are cheering all the bloody **** that happens to the civilians and soldiers who are there.... delaing or not with the **** made by politicians in the names of all of us (noone is excluded). What good comes out of killing civilians? What good comes out of stupidly denying the fact that Iraq is occupied and it's people need any help.... for the sake of some moronic understanding of international legitimacy and hurt ambitions of some old farts in presidential and chancellor's palaces?

There is no good cowboys vs bad indians as there is no galant freedom fighters vs the empire... there is lots of sh*it to be cleaned... for the sake of our and Iraqi children.

It's no time to point at each other... it's time to do smth.... at least smth.

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

One of the things I discussed with one of these people was the social welfare system in the U.S. My point was that it needs to be revamped as it's not effective, it's being abused, and that many who really need the help are not getting it. Also, healthcare in the U.S. is expensive and unless you can afford it you don't have access to the best care. (Let's not get into a discussion on HMO's, okay.) In the discussion I was comparing and contrasting it against my native Sweden. But, this was apparently out of line. Instead of discussing how the system could be improved I was met with a list of all the freedoms Americans enjoy. Not that that would solve the problem, but whatever.

I know that there are many members of these boards (some are Swedish) who love nothing else than to spout out what's wrong about America and (as you mentioned) to do so without offering any ideas for improvements or giving credit where credit is due. My point however was that some of our U.S. members are able to sift through valid points (and disregard the pure BS that some people keep throwing at them) and to acknowledge where improvements can be made. Then there are others who would take a "Rosie O'Donnel is fat"-joke by anyone who isn't born in the U.S. as a deep insult. See what I'm saying?

Not that this will matter much to you, but I lived, worked and paid taxes in the U.S (sent in my last 1040NR-EZ in January) for the past 6 years, and I was there to share the grief of 9/11. And both through my job and on a personal level I helped others cope with what happened. Though I wasn't a citizen (or even a resident) I was outraged by what had taken place. I could see why the U.S. was attacked, and how it possibly could have prevented many many years ago, but that has nothing to do with the current situation. There are many things I disagree with in the U.S., but there are many things that I whole-heartedly support (the same is true for Sweden.) I have friends who I met in the U.S. who are now in Iraq, and had I been able to I would probably have joined them myself.

Feel free to rag on Sweden all you want - I'll more than likely agree with a lot of what you can come up with, but you might want to look into my other posts on these forums for a better view of my stance on the U.S. You're better off picking a more deserving target for your anger/frustration.

Excellent post tributal. To be fair i didn't intend that solely for you(even though I put your name there), but i'm getting fed up with seeing the same people post the same ****, ranting and raving about the US.
soulhunter, fantassin, mustamato, universal, helex, etc continuely critize the US and its policies whilst ignoreing their own countries shortcomings. The majority of the time they can't back up their claims with any rational evidence.

I'm not a US apologist in the least, my country has banned nuclear weapons and ships from our shores for many years and I agree and support that decision fully. That stance upsets America and has done for years.
Our country was one of the first to support the war on terror with combat troops deployed to Afghanistan within weeks of 9/11. But on the other hand we did not support the American decision to invade Iraq without the support of the UN. We have however deployed combat engineers to assist with reconstruction.

[MaDuce]

WMD Revisted:

Helex seems to believe the Saddam did not have WMD.

Saddam has used chemical weapons both against Iran and his own people. In 1988 Saddam also used mustard and nerve agents against Iraqi Kurds at Halabja in northern Iraq. The only question that remains is, "Where are the WMD stockpiles now". We will eventually find them, they can just disappear into thin air.

http://www.kdp.pp.se/bad0080.jpg
March 17, 1988. Halabja Chemical Weapon Attack

If Saddam did not have WMD, Helex, then what caused this?

Well who do you think supplied him with these weapons????????????? YOUR F****ING GOVERNMENT!
Yes the secert Amercian shadow government and the Seceret Society of Zionists work together to bring about all the worlds evils don't they Universial. It's funny really HELEX at least always trys to backup his arguments and does it in a civil manner but but you and the One always go on flamming tiraids blamming every on the US and the Jews.

[Tributal]

Excellent post tributal.Thank you.



To be fair i didn't intend that solely for you(even though I put your name there), but i'm getting fed up with seeing the same people post the same ****, ranting and raving about the US.Gotcha. I do get fed up with thte constant US bashing too (I also get fed up with the constant bickering between some of our Balkan members as well.)


soulhunter, fantassin, mustamato, universal, helex, etc continuely critize the US and its policies whilst ignoreing their own countries shortcomings. The majority of the time they can't back up their claims with any rational evidence.I'm with ya.

[ronin2172]

i like to consider myself a level headed individual and i have had some good discussions on this site the short time i have been here, but i must agree i am tired of people always bashing the US at every opportunity in just about every forum. They slam the US for it's shady politics amd such. But excuse me what country doesn't have shady, corrupt politicians?

Ok the case for WMD was overstated, most of us agree on that. Did Iraq provide a imminent threat to the US....in my estimation...no. But to say in the same breath that the US with it's self serving,ethicaly corrupt government should have waited for the shining light that is the UN to work it's course is BS.

What about the UN oil for food program , which Saddam so obviously used to flaunt the oil embargo to the estimated tune of 100 billion dollars (that's billion with a B boys and girls) and the fact that one of the main co conspiritors in the scheme was TotalfinaElf....i'm sure our european friends recognize that name. It just happens to be one of the biggest oil companies in the world based in france. And doesn't that concern have strong connections to the french government in the same way gauloises cigarettes does (or at least did?). Hmmm...That puts the strong french resistance to the war in Iraq in a different prospective ? And why hasn't there been any investigation into this, because the UN has sealed the documents concerning the whole matter. Not the actions of an honest upstanding organization in my view. Governments only seal documents when they have something to hide.

The UN weapons inspectors....how many times did we see iraqi's truck out trailer after trailer of things just before the arrival of UN weapons inspectors, who of course found nothing. Even that 'left wing' propoganda outlet (sarcasm folks!lol) CNN reported on that.

These same ones who criticise the US for going into this war for oil seem to forget about the long line of European companies who are owed money by Saddam. They want their money ( the total is in the billions)...no way they would be able to recoup their losses with him out of power. Then again i'm sure that these factors didn't influence your governments to object to the war at all. I guess you forgot about that huh?

So before you villify us take a look at your own complicity in the whole matter. We all need to take the blame on this one.

[ronin2172]

i like to consider myself a level headed individual and i have had some good discussions on this site the short time i have been here, but i must agree i am tired of people always bashing the US at every opportunity in just about every forum. They slam the US for it's shady politics amd such. But excuse me what country doesn't have shady, corrupt politicians?

Ok the case for WMD was overstated, most of us agree on that. Did Iraq provide a imminent threat to the US....in my estimation...no. But to say in the same breath that the US with it's self serving,ethicaly corrupt government should have waited for the shining light that is the UN to work it's course is BS.

What about the UN oil for food program , which Saddam so obviously used to flaunt the oil embargo to the estimated tune of 100 billion dollars (that's billion with a B boys and girls) and the fact that one of the main co conspiritors in the scheme was TotalfinaElf....i'm sure our european friends recognize that name. It just happens to be one of the biggest oil companies in the world based in france. And doesn't that concern have strong connections to the french government in the same way gauloises cigarettes does (or at least did?). Hmmm...That puts the strong french resistance to the war in Iraq in a different prospective ? And why hasn't there been any investigation into this, because the UN has sealed the documents concerning the whole matter. Not the actions of an honest upstanding organization in my view. Governments only seal documents when they have something to hide.

The UN weapons inspectors....how many times did we see iraqi's truck out trailer after trailer of things just before the arrival of UN weapons inspectors, who of course found nothing. Even that 'left wing' propoganda outlet (sarcasm folks!lol) CNN reported on that.

These same ones who criticise the US for going into this war for oil seem to forget about the long line of European companies who are owed money by Saddam. They want their money ( the total is in the billions)...no way they would be able to recoup their losses with him out of power. Then again i'm sure that these factors didn't influence your governments to object to the war at all. I guess you forgot about that huh?

So before you villify us take a look at your own complicity in the whole matter. We all need to take the blame on this one.

[TriggerPuller]

Overstated WMD's? Saddam is unaccoutable for so much **** it's ridiculous. 16 resolutions and he doesnt comply. Why? We have to be proactive we cannot ever let 9/11 happen again. We will take no more chances with our peoples lives. How fuucking hard is this for people to understand. We were not proactive in getting UBL and look what happened.Maybe when these wankers who sympathize and quit being so naive that the Muslims arent after them will change their tune when their mothers and children are murdered!! Some of the anti-American guys around here are smart but they havent got one single fuucking clue about what the radical Muslims want to do. I will not apologize for any of these fuucks that wants to declare war on MY country!!!! You should thank god that we are doing what we do or they would have hit the UK and or who knows what else by now. Who tipped the French that a bomb was going to go off in their country yesterday.............yep the CIA!!! The French Gov is sympathetic to them and they are still not safe! Guess who the EU will ask for help when the big one hits one of their major cities? Fuuckin hypocrites! rant over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TP

Iraq wasnt an imminent threat? Well either was UBL and look what went down.

[ronin2172]

Allow me to retort.

WMD's were used to justify the war and the fact remains that none have been found, why who knows.

And they said Saddam was an imminent threat to the US, honestly that is hard to imagine. How was he a threat? Iraq had no more support for terrorism than Syria and Iran (in fact less). Don't Compare Saddam and UBL. Saddam was dead set against islamic radicals (remember he fought an 8 year war against Iran). Saddam is all about Saddam the man wore thousand dollar Armani suits and drove around in Mercedes, he fleeced his country for billions. He only cares for money and becoming the next Nasser. He doesn't give one sh** about any of the ideals that obl and other radicals want. The main country he threatened overtly was israel and they could deal with him easily (remember the raid on saddam's nuclear reactor in 1982 anyone?)OBL and Al Quaeda remains the imminent threat to this country.

Yes Saddam was slime who needed to be taken down, but we already have one fight (which isn't over yet) and a military stretched to the breaking point. Our resources are not infinite, we have to pick and choose where and how we strike. Our closest allies the british will not be able to undertake another signifigant military deployment for at least 6 years!

What if North korea decides to go for broke and attacks the south? What if China says f**k it and goes after taiwan. How can we react to that if we are in A'stan, engaged in Iraq, signifigant deployments in Europe, Sf in Colombia, Indonesia, etc. We are in a war where the primary enemy cannot be fought with armies, and tanks, and billion dollar submarines. It took Israel more than ten years and many lives to get all of the men responsible for Munich (and they knew who all the people responsible were). Israel was never able to eliminate hezbollah. This war requires patience, precision, guile, and ruthlesness.

Saddam was surrounded with no fly zones in the north and south of iraq. U had significant military forces in turkey Saudi and Kuwait. God knows how many satelites were looking down on him. A naval blockade in the persian gulf. Any time a US or British plane was lit up by radar the site was destroyed and it made the news. Iraq constantly complained to the world media about this and that. What terrorist in his right mind wants to operate out of or have connections to any country with that much heat? A terrorist wants to be based out of a country that has relativley good relations, and for the most part is an afterthought to the global media spotlight. Hell Saddam was the spotlight. How often was A'stan in the news pre 9/11? After the soviets pulled out we promptly forgot about it. Poor, with a belligerent government A'stan was disney world to terrorists. That's where we slipped up, and UBL was always an imminent threat, The terrorists who targeted the WTC the first time were linked to him, the ones who hijacked the Air France plane to marseille were linked to him. The khandahar towers bombing was linked to him, the USS Cole, the bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. How many terrorists have a link to Saddam? Name one, and if u can then name one who actually did anything in the last ten years.

Having said all that my original point (in my previous post) was that those anti american posters who are reveling in the situation in iraq need to suck a big fat d*ck!

[Beowulf]

can the US ever be wrong in anything? or is that inconceivable for most americans? they couldn't be blamed though, since their government definitely thinks they've got all wisdom of the world (if not directly from God even ...)

this is not meant to be a flame, I'm really interested.

Not meant to be a flame my ass. You take your crap somewhere else.

Just b/c your post on PMC's wasn't seen by many (especially TP) is the only reason you're still posting here.