Islam Permits Killing of Prisoners?

[SeanAshi]

1) A polytheist prisoner must be killed. No amnesty may be granted to him, nor can he be ransomed.
2) All infidel polytheists and the People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians) are to be killed. They may not be granted amnesty, nor can they be ransomed.
3) Amnesty and ransom are the only two ways to deal with prisoners.
4) Amnesty and ransom are possible only after the killing of a large number of prisoners.
5) The Imam, or someone acting on his behalf, can choose between killing, amnesty, ransom or enslaving the prisoner.
Killing a Prisoner for the Sins of Others is Permissible

In reaction to the arguments made by some critics that no one should be punished for the sins of others, the author maintains that Allah permits the killing of a prisoner because he is a prisoner, and all the more so if his killing for the sins of others serves an important Islamic interest, as well as a deterrent (to the enemy). He brings examples from actions of the Prophet. A state of war justifies actions of the sort that could guarantee the security of the soldiers of Islam. Moreover, only with such action is it possible to protect the honor of Muslims.(2)

In an article titled “Are Hostages Prisoners?” the author explains the concept of “hostages” in its modern application to local kidnapped individuals and foreigners who are held as a means of pressure to achieve specific goals. According to him, he who was kidnapped in accordance with Islamic law should be considered a hostage, and hence a prisoner, who should be treated in the manner that would bring benefits to the Muslims.
http://www.qoqaz.com/

[Truthsayer]

Ah, an anti-moslum/Islam-thread. How refreshing.

[born_to_kill]

how is it anti muslim, its truth

[Universal]

k listen to me, I'm gonna get something straight. Whenever you read something about Islam, and it sounds outrageous, then, it is a LIE. If you want info on the real religion, read their bible, the Quran. I have, and it tells a whole different story from what I've read on the net, in mags, or seen on TV ---> all of these speak bull****.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

k listen to me, I'm gonna get something straight. Whenever you read something about Islam, and it sounds outrageous, then, it is a LIE. If you want info on the real religion, read their bible, the Quran. I have, and it tells a whole different story from what I've read on the net, in mags, or seen on TV ---> all of these speak bull****.

Pretty much word universal woot

Ironically these are the same people that post these links as "facts", yet when in other situations they harshly nit pick links.

I bet I can find an article that says we've been living on mars for years, just because I found it doesnt mean its true.....

[Universal]

I read the entire thing, and not once did it say to kill anyone, or cause harm, or promote violence. The only thing I found regarding this issue, is that it said; only use force against someone when they use force on you, or try to take something of yours. Now I know some muslims in this world don't follow their religion's rules, that's because they are angry with this world, especially americans. That is why we call them extremists.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

1) A polytheist prisoner must be killed. No amnesty may be granted to him, nor can he be ransomed.
2) All infidel polytheists and the People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians) are to be killed. They may not be granted amnesty, nor can they be ransomed.
3) Amnesty and ransom are the only two ways to deal with prisoners.
4) Amnesty and ransom are possible only after the killing of a large number of prisoners.
5) The Imam, or someone acting on his behalf, can choose between killing, amnesty, ransom or enslaving the prisoner.
Killing a Prisoner for the Sins of Others is Permissible

In reaction to the arguments made by some critics that no one should be punished for the sins of others, the author maintains that Allah permits the killing of a prisoner because he is a prisoner, and all the more so if his killing for the sins of others serves an important Islamic interest, as well as a deterrent (to the enemy). He brings examples from actions of the Prophet. A state of war justifies actions of the sort that could guarantee the security of the soldiers of Islam. Moreover, only with such action is it possible to protect the honor of Muslims.(2)

In an article titled “Are Hostages Prisoners?” the author explains the concept of “hostages” in its modern application to local kidnapped individuals and foreigners who are held as a means of pressure to achieve specific goals. According to him, he who was kidnapped in accordance with Islamic law should be considered a hostage, and hence a prisoner, who should be treated in the manner that would bring benefits to the Muslims.
http://www.qoqaz.com/
Not in my version.

[American Patriot]

I read the entire thing, and not once did it say to kill anyone, or cause harm, or promote violence. The only thing I found regarding this issue, is that it said; only use force against someone when they use force on you, or try to take something of yours. Now I know some muslims in this world don't follow their religion's rules, that's because they are angry with this world, especially americans. That is why we call them extremists.

Maybe you read the wrong translation?

[Truthsayer]

how is it anti muslim, its truth

I will remember that when anyone posts anything about jews, a deal?

[Universal]

I read the entire thing, and not once did it say to kill anyone, or cause harm, or promote violence. The only thing I found regarding this issue, is that it said; only use force against someone when they use force on you, or try to take something of yours. Now I know some muslims in this world don't follow their religion's rules, that's because they are angry with this world, especially americans. That is why we call them extremists.

Maybe you read the wrong translation?

no american patriot, u pothead, I didn't read the wrong translations. :roll:

[foxtrot023]

I agree with universal, it is a BS info. Islam has been twisted by the sad f*cking terrorists, but history tells us it is no more evil or good than other religions (due to humans). Per example, I am a Christian and I believe my religion is good, however there were the crusades, bad popes, religious wars in Europe, the inquisitions, etc. Does that make Christianity bad? nope, it means some really evil people happened to be Christians. Same with Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and all other ISMs.

regards

[citizen-k]

Thats BS.

Christians did worse in their time, so? It's not a religious thing - it's a culture thing.

While in the US and Israel burning people and abusing their bodies is considered savage, Iraqis and Palestinians think its artistic and amusing.

(same goes for killing hostages etc...)

[foxtrot023]

Thats BS.

Christians did worse in their time, so? It's not a religious thing - it's a culture thing.



Nope. It is not the European ¨Culture¨, nor can you specify Chrsitians for being ¨bad¨. It is a peoples issue (as in person). If you are a rotten apple you will be no matter what.

regards

[MetalBoy]

Over the years different muftis (Islamic Judges) have issued fatwas (Islamic judicial findings) to situations, basing their interpretation of the Sharia, which is a collection of Islamic "rules" that are based on the teachings of the Koran. Thus you can ge a wide range of "Islamic laws" often which contradict each other.

This list of rules was probably issued by an extremist mufti or other fringe Islamic leader, and thus most Muslims probably do not practice it. So you can't really say all Muslims believe this or that. Although, I don't doubt a large number of Muslims do believe in the codes SeanAshi posted.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Christians did worse in their time, so? It's not a religious thing - it's a culture thing.

While in the US and Israel burning people and abusing their bodies is considered savage, Iraqis and Palestinians think its artistic and amusing.

(same goes for killing hostages etc...)
Never heard of Clifford Martin and Mervyn Paice then citizen-k, two off duty British Army sergeants who were abducted held for over 7 days and hung with piano wire from a tree their bodies were then ****y trapped. This act was committed by the Irgun. There was talk of their bodies showing signs of torture.

[HELEX]

Did you guys read the Bible recently? There is funny **** in it that beats this by miles.... :cantbeli:

[TriggerPuller]

Did you guys read the Bible recently? There is funny **** in it that beats this by miles.... :cantbeli:Dont even go there!

TP

[IDFM203]

Great post "citizen-k" !!



Christians did worse in their time, so? It's not a religious thing - it's a culture thing.

While in the US and Israel burning people and abusing their bodies is considered savage, Iraqis and Palestinians think its artistic and amusing.

(same goes for killing hostages etc...)
Never heard of Clifford Martin and Mervyn Paice then citizen-k, two off duty British Army sergeants who were abducted held for over 7 days and hung with piano wire from a tree their bodies were then ****y trapped. This act was committed by the Irgun. There was talk of their bodies showing signs of torture.……and you ever hear of Yehuda Lapidot, Meir Nakar, Yaakov Weiss?? probably not, well these were 3 Jewish defense fighters that were hung by the British and in response to that, irgun went and ordered the hanging of 2 British hostages, which are indeed, army sergeants Clifford Martin and Mervyn Paice. Oh and the action set off anti-Jewish riots across Britain.

Anyways I can go on about the British there in that time and point out all sorts of acts as I am sure you can point out some acts committed by us, however the Key here is that what the Irgun did was not acted nor accepted by most and in fact Irgun was an extreme minority with NOT a lot of support, where in fact the larger haganah and a few other organizations, were very much opposed to the Irgun for exactly the harsh way they did some things (btw me personally while I disagreed with some of their things, I at the same time fully support some of the necessary things that they did..but that is just me ;) )

So in Israel, most certainly do not except any inhuman behavior such as burning bodies or acting in other inhuman savage ways, and most certainly do NOT celebrate it when a few commit it, unlike in the Arab world where it is certainly celebrated by a lot and inhuman savage behavior towards the enemy is widely accepted and supported.

Shalom :D

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

and you ever hear of Yehuda Lapidot, Meir Nakar, Yaakov Weiss?? probably not, well these were 3 Jewish defense fighters that were hung by the British
Yes I have heard of the men and they were hung for their crimes "terrorist acts" we can can over the rights and wrongs of that time in Palastine time and time again but the facts stand that these men were in involved in acts of terror, and yes I accept that the Irgun did not have the full backing of the Jewish community in Palastine.

Oh and the action set off anti-Jewish riots across Britain.There was was some sporadic attacks on Jews in London and Manchester, you are way of the mark with this one though if you could provide proof from a British media source that there were anti Jewish riots across Britain.

[shorty]

Hey HELEX you know the funniest thing about the Bible???? It ALL happened......what a coincedence!! :fork:

[IDFM203]

Bacilluspolymyxa,

Hmm its quite clear that you have simply resorted to labeling them terrorists without even knowing exactly what these man were convicted for

I mean can you tell me how these men were implicated in terror acts?

You know, me I thought they were convicted for helping in a prison break in a MILITARY jail.

I mean did they target civilians? Is that what they were convicted for??

Listen other then a ridicules diversionary tacit (for bringing Irgun and Israel is always a tactic for people to get off the main topic) or an attempt at some warped moral equivalence between Israeli societies and Arab societies, you bringing of Irgun into this was quite absurd.

I mean besides me even going into how the British were implicit in a lot of the Arab terrorists attacks on Jewish civilians in how they allowed (and even at times encouraged) it to happen etc.. I can even dig up other conflicts from all sorts of times where some British solders have acted inhuman and savage.

However all that misses the point (or rather all these little trees, misses the forest)……….


The fact is that in the Israeli society (and I would assume in the British and in fact in all western societies) inhuman and savage acts against ones enemy are for the most part NOT done and when a few do engage in that (as in every society there are some “bad apples”) it is NOT celebrated or supported by most of the populations.

That is NOT the case for the most part in the Arab world, where in fact inhuman savage behavior against their enemies are quite prevalent and it IS celebrated and supported by a lot in their societies.

Lastly as for those anti Jewish riots in Britain, well what can I say, that is a quote I lifted from some site, now I tried to find out more about it and I am having a bit of trouble of finding any more info on what happened in Britain at that time against the Jews living there, so perhaps you can show me any credible site that says it was just “some sporadic attacks on Jews in London and Manchester” and I would then take that into consideration (though I will also do a bit more research on this in the near future as well)

Shalom :D

[citizen-k]

Christians did worse in their time, so? It's not a religious thing - it's a culture thing.

While in the US and Israel burning people and abusing their bodies is considered savage, Iraqis and Palestinians think its artistic and amusing.

(same goes for killing hostages etc...)
Never heard of Clifford Martin and Mervyn Paice then citizen-k, two off duty British Army sergeants who were abducted held for over 7 days and hung with piano wire from a tree their bodies were then ****y trapped. This act was committed by the Irgun. There was talk of their bodies showing signs of torture.

Ever heared about many other "Irgun" members who were hanged by the british? (and tortured in prison before that?)

There is still a difference between torturing a prisoner to get information then to torture him for fun. (not that I like any of the options...)

[citizen-k]

and you ever hear of Yehuda Lapidot, Meir Nakar, Yaakov Weiss?? probably not, well these were 3 Jewish defense fighters that were hung by the British
Yes I have heard of the men and they were hung for their crimes "terrorist acts" we can can over the rights and wrongs of that time in Palastine time and time again but the facts stand that these men were in involved in acts of terror, and yes I accept that the Irgun did not have the full backing of the Jewish community in Palastine.

Oh and the action set off anti-Jewish riots across Britain.There was was some sporadic attacks on Jews in London and Manchester, you are way of the mark with this one though if you could provide proof from a British media source that there were anti Jewish riots across Britain.

"terrorist acts"? rofl

Let me guess - they blew up a bus in London? ;)

Fighting an army who allows the Nazis to kill your people in gas chambers is different then blowing up school buses, don't you think?

[Javehn]

What is this rubish ? Why people don't stop writting rubbish here ?

If Islam was about that , then i would long ago stop writting here , sence i am surrounded with Arabic naighbours . It's a cultural problem , something that called "livane" , mid terrainian menthality , and Arab peninsula culture , that ivolved with the time . They have other values , and when they adopted Islam , they also adopted it to their needs (different Islam sects) . The saying , " Kal Al muslemien E7wah" - "All Muslim are brothers " didn't stop them for endless cult , tribal , land/water wars amongst themself . The mix of Islam and the culture give bearth to many fundamental views and action . But the text that was given , is total bull**** , i am sorry to say .

[stuntman]

1) A polytheist prisoner must be killed. No amnesty may be granted to him, nor can he be ransomed.
2) All infidel polytheists and the People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians) are to be killed. They may not be granted amnesty, nor can they be ransomed.
3) Amnesty and ransom are the only two ways to deal with prisoners.
4) Amnesty and ransom are possible only after the killing of a large number of prisoners.
5) The Imam, or someone acting on his behalf, can choose between killing, amnesty, ransom or enslaving the prisoner.
Killing a Prisoner for the Sins of Others is Permissible

In reaction to the arguments made by some critics that no one should be punished for the sins of others, the author maintains that Allah permits the killing of a prisoner because he is a prisoner, and all the more so if his killing for the sins of others serves an important Islamic interest, as well as a deterrent (to the enemy). He brings examples from actions of the Prophet. A state of war justifies actions of the sort that could guarantee the security of the soldiers of Islam. Moreover, only with such action is it possible to protect the honor of Muslims.(2)

In an article titled “Are Hostages Prisoners?” the author explains the concept of “hostages” in its modern application to local kidnapped individuals and foreigners who are held as a means of pressure to achieve specific goals. According to him, he who was kidnapped in accordance with Islamic law should be considered a hostage, and hence a prisoner, who should be treated in the manner that would bring benefits to the Muslims.
http://www.qoqaz.com/
I do not think he was attempting to be anti muslim, I think he is posting facts about the state of mind of the enemies of the west (US, Europe, Isreal, non muslims) so infact fear these people and stay vigilant!
Nice point backed with facts SeanAshi .

[SeanAshi]

I do not think he was attempting to be anti muslim, I think he is posting facts about the state of mind of the enemies of the west (US, Europe, Isreal, non muslims) so infact fear these people and stay vigilant!
Nice point backed with facts SeanAshi .Thank you! I got this info from a Chechen pro-terrorist website, my intentions were not to label all muslims as savages.
But the text that was given , is total bull**** , i am sorry to say .Of course it is, what do you expect from Chechens?

[Aegirsson]

The fact is that in the Israeli society (and I would assume in the British and in fact in all western societies) inhuman and savage acts against ones enemy are for the most part NOT done and when a few do engage in that (as in every society there are some “bad apples”) it is NOT celebrated or supported by most of the populations.

That is NOT the case for the most part in the Arab world, where in fact inhuman savage behavior against their enemies are quite prevalent and it IS celebrated and supported by a lot in their societies.


Man , after posting this kind of **** you can put your shalom in your ass.

Because you have seen twenty people with education/mental issues beating dead bodies you say all the arabic world agree with that? But who are you to judge millions of persons on the acts of 1% of our community?
And how can you compare third world countries whit poor education systems with western countries?
And finally you know what you are? One of this extremists, like arab or israelian radicals, you try to make of a territorial conflict a cultural/religious conflict. You are pathetic.

This board is touching the bottom.
[/quote]

[HELEX]

Hey HELEX you know the funniest thing about the Bible???? It ALL happened......what a coincedence!!

Yes sure rofl

The Bible was written a lot of time after the described events. So give a story 100 Years of mouth to ear transfer and look what happens. :lol:

[Marmot1]

and you ever hear of Yehuda Lapidot, Meir Nakar, Yaakov Weiss?? probably not, well these were 3 Jewish defense fighters that were hung by the British
Yes I have heard of the men and they were hung for their crimes "terrorist acts" we can can over the rights and wrongs of that time in Palastine time and time again but the facts stand that these men were in involved in acts of terror, and yes I accept that the Irgun did not have the full backing of the Jewish community in Palastine.

Oh and the action set off anti-Jewish riots across Britain.There was was some sporadic attacks on Jews in London and Manchester, you are way of the mark with this one though if you could provide proof from a British media source that there were anti Jewish riots across Britain.

"terrorist acts"? rofl

Let me guess - they blew up a bus in London? ;)

Fighting an army who allows the Nazis to kill your people in gas chambers is different then blowing up school buses, don't you think?
Which army do you have on mind? British?

[Javehn]

The fact is that in the Israeli society (and I would assume in the British and in fact in all western societies) inhuman and savage acts against ones enemy are for the most part NOT done and when a few do engage in that (as in every society there are some “bad apples”) it is NOT celebrated or supported by most of the populations.

That is NOT the case for the most part in the Arab world, where in fact inhuman savage behavior against their enemies are quite prevalent and it IS celebrated and supported by a lot in their societies.


Man , after posting this kind of **** you can put your shalom in your ass.

Because you have seen twenty people with education/mental issues beating dead bodies you say all the arabic world agree with that? But who are you to judge millions of persons on the acts of 1% of our community?
And how can you compare third world countries whit poor education systems with western countries?
And finally you know what you are? One of this extremists, like arab or israelian radicals, you try to make of a territorial conflict a cultural/religious conflict. You are pathetic.

This board is touching the bottom.


Let me tell you something . I have seen more then 20 people acting like a savages . Or like people that don't know what they fighting for , and they act , just because some long bearded goat ****ing Mufti that never read a book in his life except the Kuran talled him so . I saw ENTIRE CITY COVER UP FOR A BUNCH OF CRIMINAL MURDERERS (it's called city of Jenin , if you don't take my word for it ) . Sometimes those criminals didn't even waited that the kids who cover them with their body move , and started to fire , causing they one people to go kabum . With all , do respect , as i said it's a cultular rather religios matter , and that's creates a different society . Very different , then you know Aigerson , from what , perhaps Sweden ?? Most of them really don't care allready about the land , and they just cinicly use the keys of the old houses . They just do it because they talled to . Hate everybody . There is a member of this forum , that have a land registered to his family in Syria (now Lebanon) from Authoman era . I don't see someone that gonna return it in the near future , but you don't see him bitching about it .

You don't know **** about Arab , middle east , Kavkaz or midterrain culture , so you can take your Tjena and shove it back up your ass .
I haven't saw one post of IDFM203 that suggest he is turning the conflict to something else , then it is , only you .

So , Hej då ... :roll: Please don't start bitching back like a little child .

[khukuri]

So in Israel, most certainly do not except any inhuman behavior such as burning bodies or acting in other inhuman savage ways, and most certainly do NOT celebrate it when a few commit it, unlike in the Arab world where it is certainly celebrated by a lot and inhuman savage behavior towards the enemy is widely accepted and supported.

Shalom :D


i agre with most of ehat you write but thi sis not true, those irakis who celebrated that act are also an miniority just like the miniority whi supported irgun.

And its not widely accepted an supported. I wonder where you get this from? ive lived in three arab countries and I know what I am talking about. The only thing you know as an israeli about arabs are those who either throw stones at you or terrorists

[Javehn]

And its not widely accepted an supported. I wonder where you get this from? ive lived in three arab countries and I know what I am talking about. The only thing you know as an israeli about arabs are those who either throw stones at you or terrorists

Nice , what Arab countries you been ?? :lol:

I have also to say , that many Israeiles do see Arabs in somewhat different light then it is . If i haven't lived in Arabic surrounding , and studying with them , i would perhaps had a complete different mindset about them . But unfortunatly , many Arabs have very corrupted view on the west , or Israel . I am sorry that i can't get you the transcript of my MIRC conversation that i had today between me and a Palestinian from Lebanon . That was very enlighting . And very very sad . I remember also talking with some Palestinian kids , and i have to say that history of any kind isn't exactly their strong side . All that was repeated is : "You are bad , you killed Jesus (As a Muslim profit) , you killed profits , Jews are Nazies (the last one was ammusing , because they changed their view of Nazies from bad to good , when they start talking how good Nazism wanted to kill Jews , because they were bad) .
Now , really , it's sad it has to be this way in 21 century .

[foxtrot023]

And its not widely accepted an supported. I wonder where you get this from? ive lived in three arab countries and I know what I am talking about. The only thing you know as an israeli about arabs are those who either throw stones at you or terrorists

Nice , what Arab countries you been ?? :lol:

I have also to say , that many Israeiles do see Arabs in somewhat different light then it is . If i haven't lived in Arabic surrounding , and studying with them , i would perhaps had a complete different mindset about them . But unfortunatly , many Arabs have very corrupted view on the west , or Israel . I am sorry that i can't get you the transcript of my MIRC conversation that i had today between me and a Palestinian from Lebanon . That was very enlighting . And very very sad . I remember also talking with some Palestinian kids , and i have to say that history of any kind isn't exactly their strong side . All that was repeated is : "You are bad , you killed Jesus (As a Muslim profit) , you killed profits , Jews are Nazies (the last one was ammusing , because they changed their view of Nazies from bad to good , when they start talking how good Nazism wanted to kill Jews , because they were bad) .
Now , really , it's sad it has to be this way in 21 century .

Javehn

As was mentioned above, both jewish views on arabs and arabs views on jewish are warped because of the conflict. In one of the countries that I`ve lived on, Panama, I saw jewish businessmen eating with arab businessmen, making joint ventures, joking together, etc. in perfect armony. Think about all things you guys share (and you do), like per example food types and similar prohibitions on what type of foods you may eat.

Bear in mind that when 7 spanish intelligence officers were killed in an ambush, some kids also jumped on the bodies (although they thought they were americans), think of the bastards that place the bombs on Madrid, so my view on some muslims isn`t exactly rosy. However if we blame ALL arabs for the crimes of few, then the terrorists have won, because their goal is a cultural confrontation, and it is to create hate (thats were they recruit from). Personally, I `ve said it before, wipe out terrorists from the surface of our planet, but let`s not generalize.

Regards

[IDFM203]

The fact is that in the Israeli society (and I would assume in the British and in fact in all western societies) inhuman and savage acts against ones enemy are for the most part NOT done and when a few do engage in that (as in every society there are some “bad apples”) it is NOT celebrated or supported by most of the populations.

That is NOT the case for the most part in the Arab world, where in fact inhuman savage behavior against their enemies are quite prevalent and it IS celebrated and supported by a lot in their societies.


Man , after posting this kind of **** you can put your shalom in your ass.


Blah blah blah……………….

You are pathetic.

This board is touching the bottom

:roll: Besides you being so off on what I know or what I think about this conflict or about the region that I live in, you starting off like some deranged child and then pretending that you are some intellectual on this, is quite absurd and only tells me (and hopefully others) that your posts cant be taken seriously and as such I wont.

You want a debate, act like it, and though if you are going to spew ridicules garbage and mix in juvenile name calling, as you have done, then understand that it is YOU that has brought this forum to its bottom that it has become.



Now at least the next poster, even though I disagree with him, he was at least mature enough to not huf and puf like some deranged child, as you have shown yourself to be.





So in Israel, most certainly do not except any inhuman behavior such as burning bodies or acting in other inhuman savage ways, and most certainly do NOT celebrate it when a few commit it, unlike in the Arab world where it is certainly celebrated by a lot and inhuman savage behavior towards the enemy is widely accepted and supported.

Shalom :D


i agre with most of ehat you write but thi sis not true, those irakis who celebrated that act are also an miniority just like the miniority whi supported irgun.

And its not widely accepted an supported. I wonder where you get this from? ive lived in three arab countries and I know what I am talking about. The only thing you know as an israeli about arabs are those who either throw stones at you or terrorists Well first of all I know a lot about the Palestinian society that we face and I stand by my statements,

And no I don’t base it on people that throw stones or on terrorists, I am referring to how a lot in the Palestinian society openly celebrate any savage acts against their enemies (Like Israel) and when an act is committed, it is not condemned but rather supported by most or a lot.

(Oh and just one finall note on the pali’s, you say stones being thrown as if me getting shot at constantly by them never happened….a lot more goes on then just mere stone throwing)

I also know a lot about Israel’s immediate neighbors and how they have acted in wars and how their societies have acted in support for a lot of the savagery that was shown by them

I think it’s a gross fallacy when people in the west constantly label people that celebrate or support these kind of acts as extremists for I think IMO that is a gross underestimation of the true percentage of people that do it.

As for others, first of all you don’t know who I am or where I am from. I suggest you don’t assume what I know but rather stick to what I write and not on how you think I know my stuff based on where I live.

I mean besides the fact that I know plenty of people (mostly Jews but I know a few Arabs as well) that have LIVED in a lot of different Arab nations, I also know how Israeli prisoners were treated in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, or how a lot in their societies acted, and there are other factors as well that all come to gather to form an opinion.

Of course I cannot prove to you what I said, for that is impossible, but from my view, people in the Arab world certainly celebrate this kind of behaviors much more frequently and in much larger percentage of their populations then in Israel or in other western societies.

Lastly let me make something clear, I do not say all do this and if I gave that impression before then I retract it for indeed I have Arab friends or I have met many civilized and peaceful Arabs, and in no way am I saying they are all are terrorists or that all are supportive of savage behaviors, however I guess where me and some others here will disagree is on some of you labeling this a few and a extreme minority where I think its got a much bigger percentage that support it and certainly in wars and in conflicts, the Arab forces treat their prisoners much more inhumanly and savagely then anything Israel has done for the most part.


Shalom :D

[One?]

ISLAM PROHIBITS THE KILLING OF PRISONERS.


Prisoners of war must be treated the same way you treat your brother. Meaning you can't beat them, torture, or do anything that would harm them physically. So don't post BS that you got from I don't know where.

[Whistler]

ISLAM PROHIBITS THE KILLING OF PRISONERS.


Prisoners of war must be treated the same way you treat your brother. Meaning you can't beat them, torture, or do anything that would harm them physically. So don't post BS that you got from I don't know where.

I guess all the guys in Iraq, Pakistan, Lebanon, etc missed that memo.

[foxtrot023]

No, only the @sshole terrorists and similar animals did miss it.

[citizen-k]

and you ever hear of Yehuda Lapidot, Meir Nakar, Yaakov Weiss?? probably not, well these were 3 Jewish defense fighters that were hung by the British
Yes I have heard of the men and they were hung for their crimes "terrorist acts" we can can over the rights and wrongs of that time in Palastine time and time again but the facts stand that these men were in involved in acts of terror, and yes I accept that the Irgun did not have the full backing of the Jewish community in Palastine.

Oh and the action set off anti-Jewish riots across Britain.There was was some sporadic attacks on Jews in London and Manchester, you are way of the mark with this one though if you could provide proof from a British media source that there were anti Jewish riots across Britain.

"terrorist acts"? rofl

Let me guess - they blew up a bus in London? ;)

Fighting an army who allows the Nazis to kill your people in gas chambers is different then blowing up school buses, don't you think?
Which army do you have on mind? British?

Open a history book, look for 'exodus', ok? (Google will do as well)

(A boat with 4554 people on board which was sent back to Germany during the war)

[SeanAshi]

Prisoners of war must be treated the same way you treat your brother. Meaning you can't beat them, torture, or do anything that would harm them physically. So don't post BS that you got from I don't know where.One don't tell me I already know this ;) , but apparently the Chechens are not aware your suppose to treat your prioners like your brother, unles if you treat your brother in such ways are beheading them, blowing off fingers with guns, shooting them in the head, cutting their genitalia off...I could go on but I wont.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Prisoners of war must be treated the same way you treat your brother. Meaning you can't beat them, torture, or do anything that would harm them physically. So don't post BS that you got from I don't know where.One don't tell me I already know this ;) , but apparently the Chechens are not aware your suppose to treat your prioners like your brother, unles if you treat your brother in such ways are beheading them, blowing off fingers with guns, shooting them in the head, cutting their genitalia off...I could go on but I wont.

Nice to see you group every Chechen together and all call them butchers when its only the acts of a few that give them such a bad reputation.

I'm absolutely sick of people stereotyping everyone, especially SeanAshi.

[One?]

well just because they are muslim doesn't mean they have to follow the rules. Most of them don't. Or some of them translate the text in a way that helps their political agenda.

[SeanAshi]

I'm absolutely sick of people stereotyping everyone, especially SeanAshi.Stereotype is human nature, we all stereotype people ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð even you.
well just because they are muslim doesn't mean they have to follow the rules. Most of them don't. Or some of them translate the text in a way that helps their political agenda.My apologies for this insensitive thread that unfairly portrays the Muslim faith.

[ßå$tĮТHÏ¿ð]

Theres a difference though SeanAshi.


the Chechens are not aware your suppose to treat your prioners like your brother, unles if you treat your brother in such ways are beheading them, blowing off fingers with guns, shooting them in the head, cutting their genitalia off.

Ok by saying just "the Chechens" you bundled a large group of people together. If you said Chechen extremists / Chechen rebels you would've been more on point.

Catch my drift?

[SeanAshi]

Gotcha..I will be more discrete in future post.

[Resevoir Hogs]

Man this is such a stupid thread, someone should lock it.
Killing of prisoners is not only a practice used by Islamic extremists. The KKK does the exact same thing and celebrates it. Evil exists in all cultures.

[TALOS]

Theres a difference though SeanAshi.


the Chechens are not aware your suppose to treat your prioners like your brother, unles if you treat your brother in such ways are beheading them, blowing off fingers with guns, shooting them in the head, cutting their genitalia off.

Ok by saying just "the Chechens" you bundled a large group of people together. If you said Chechen extremists / Chechen rebels you would've been more on point.

Catch my drift?
Your points valid but would have more ooomph if for instance the muslim clerics around the globe would actually tell their people in their own language that these "extremists" do not represent islam and are reprehensible rather than glorifying their martyrdom. Just a thought ;)

[S'13]

Open a history book, look for 'exodus', ok? (Google will do as well)

(A boat with 4554 people on board which was sent back to Germany during the war)

Actually the Exodus Ship Incident took place in 1947, however is a good example of the thoughtlessness which was customary to the British at the time of the mandate.
A more suitable example would be the case of the Struma (in the year 1942) which sailed from Constanza in Rumania.
The ship had 769 immigrants aboard and was anchored in Turkey while making its way to the Land of Israel, however the British refused to grant permission for the ship to enter the Land of Israel and so the Turkish authorities sent the ship back to the Black Sea.
On the following day a mighty explosion was heard and the ship went down. Much later it was determined the ship had been sunk by a torpedo from a Russian submarine. Only one passenger, David Stoliar, survived and eventually reached Palestine. Among the dead were 103 children.

[Mark_Aspen]

I don't know that I buy the "its just a few bad apples" argument anymore, but I also wouldn't categorize Muslim or Arab society as savage and wanton either. I would go so far as to say they believe in and operate by a set of norms that don't reach "western" standards. Do they treat POws any differently than say the Japanese did in WWII? There are certainly cases of Israeli POWs being executed, particularly pilots, but there have never been Malmedy like episodes in the major Arab Israeli wars. The major standout incidents are irregular actions; Deir Yassin (4/9/1948) by the Irgun and Stern groups, the Hadassah Convoy massacre (4/13/1948) on the way to Mt. Scopus, and the murder of the defenders of the Etzion Block of settlements after they'd surrendered (5/14/1948). In general the Arab armies behaved better than Arab guerillas, irregulars or whatever one calls them.

Having just finished two books on the defense and capture of Wake Island in 1941, I'm left with the obsevations, 60 years later of the surviving Americans. On the whole, they're not bitter about most of their treatment, it wasn't much different than what the average Japanese soldier experienced. Maybe thats what happens with the Arabs. How well is the Egyptian or Syrian conscript treated by his own command structure?

[cut]

Open a history book, look for 'exodus', ok? (Google will do as well)

(A boat with 4554 people on board which was sent back to Germany during the war)

Actually the Exodus Ship Incident took place in 1947, however is a good example of the thoughtlessness which was customary to the British at the time of the mandate.
A more suitable example would be the case of the Struma (in the year 1942) which sailed from Constanza in Rumania.
The ship had 769 immigrants aboard and was anchored in Turkey while making its way to the Land of Israel, however the British refused to grant permission for the ship to enter the Land of Israel and so the Turkish authorities sent the ship back to the Black Sea.
On the following day a mighty explosion was heard and the ship went down. Much later it was determined the ship had been sunk by a torpedo from a Russian submarine. Only one passenger, David Stoliar, survived and eventually reached Palestine. Among the dead were 103 children.

on what grounds did we refuse to grant permission? an evil whim?

[Mark Sman]

47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.

[S'13]

Open a history book, look for 'exodus', ok? (Google will do as well)

(A boat with 4554 people on board which was sent back to Germany during the war)

Actually the Exodus Ship Incident took place in 1947, however is a good example of the thoughtlessness which was customary to the British at the time of the mandate.
A more suitable example would be the case of the Struma (in the year 1942) which sailed from Constanza in Rumania.
The ship had 769 immigrants aboard and was anchored in Turkey while making its way to the Land of Israel, however the British refused to grant permission for the ship to enter the Land of Israel and so the Turkish authorities sent the ship back to the Black Sea.
On the following day a mighty explosion was heard and the ship went down. Much later it was determined the ship had been sunk by a torpedo from a Russian submarine. Only one passenger, David Stoliar, survived and eventually reached Palestine. Among the dead were 103 children.

on what grounds did we refuse to grant permission? an evil whim?

Not an evil whim, but the appeasement of the Arabs...

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Sorry for the late reply IFDM203 I was looking at new property.

Hmm its quite clear that you have simply resorted to labeling them terrorists without even knowing exactly what these man were convicted for
They were convicted of freeing 41 terrorists, 30 Irgun and 11 Lehi from Acre Prison in 4/05/1947, I admit that I do not know what each of these men was guilty of but we can be sure it was not tax evasion or theft of donkey's. I do know who one of the freed Irgun men was Eitan Livini one time chief of operations who supervised each operation from the moment the target was selected, through the planning to the implementation stage. Livini was sent clandestinely to Europe to organize action against British targets there, and returned to Palestine in May 1948.


Listen other then a ridicules diversionary tacit (for bringing Irgun and Israel is always a tactic for people to get off the main topic) or an attempt at some warped moral equivalence between Israeli societies and Arab societies, you bringing of Irgun into this was quite absurd.

I disagree, the only reason I brought the Irgun into the discussion was because "citizen-k' took the moral high ground with this statement below.

While in the US and Israel burning people and abusing their bodies is considered savage, Iraqis and Palestinians think its artistic and amusing.


I mean besides me even going into how the British were implicit in a lot of the Arab terrorists attacks on Jewish civilians in how they allowed (and even at times encouraged) it to happen etc..
Mostly myth and about as absurd as "The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion" which we all know not to be true.


I can even dig up other conflicts from all sorts of times where some British solders have acted inhuman and savage.
I don't doubt it, we can be real b*stards, though I feel we have grown up a lot over the years.


I am having a bit of trouble of finding any more info on what happened in Britain at that time against the Jews living there, so perhaps you can show me any credible site that says it was just “some sporadic attacks on Jews in London and Manchester” and I would then take that into consideration (though I will also do a bit more research on this in the near future as well)

Most of the information that I have read on this subject was from two books one on Jewish migrants to the UK from the Baltic states 1800's to the 1980's and one on anti semitism in Europe, both were borrowed.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Fighting an army who allows the Nazis to kill your people in gas chambers is different then blowing up school buses, don't you think?
If the army you are referring to is the British Army the one that fought tooth and nail against the Nazi's then I think your concept of morality is warped, I am sorry we did not fight harder against the Nazi's while your country men were disrupting our supply lines.:roll: I am glad that many in Palestine put aside their grievances with the British for a while and fought alongside us against Fascism.

[Saranof]

Did you guys read the Bible recently? There is funny **** in it that beats this by miles.... :cantbeli:

True. Islam is actually in content more "liberal" than christianity.

EDIT: So alhough Islam is still a pretty violent religion (the christian, jewish and musilm religions all are) it's not as if it's something strange.
A funny thing, over here, if a woman gets raped (for example) by a man from a muslim country it's because of his religion, but if it's a swede, it's not. Funny.

[IDFM203]

Sorry for the late reply IFDM203 I was looking at new property. property as in a house? So where and how much? p-)

Remember it’s all about location, location, location

(Well that’s it for the obvious advice on real estate ;) )


"Hmm its quite clear that you have simply resorted to labeling them terrorists without even knowing exactly what these man were convicted for"


They were convicted of freeing 41 terrorists, 30 Irgun and 11 Lehi from Acre Prison in 4/05/1947, I admit that I do not know what each of these men was guilty of but we can be sure it was not tax evasion or theft of donkey's. Indeed as the British there also weren’t involved in any tax invasion or theft of donkeys.

IMO if they targeted civilians then indeed they were terrorists, but so far I haven’t seen any of that and you certainly didn’t bring anything to back up your claims before that they were terrorists.

Also Irgun and Lehi were not all terrorists and in fact most usually only targeted military targets.

Now of course there is some acts that they did other wise and that was later and not committed by all and indeed those acts were condemned by most and not supported by most.


"Listen other then a ridicules diversionary tacit (for bringing Irgun and Israel is always a tactic for people to get off the main topic) or an attempt at some warped moral equivalence between Israeli societies and Arab societies, you bringing of Irgun into this was quite absurd.



I disagree, the only reason I brought the Irgun into the discussion was because "citizen-k' took the moral high ground with this statement below. well IMO he was right for again of course we have some bad acts, as well as you have, but IMO those are not the norm and certainly are much rarer then what you see in the Islamic Arab world and also when one of us (us, you, anyone in the western world) commites an unacceptable act, they are for the most part NOT celebrated and supported and in fact MOST openly condemn any such acts and IMO that is NOT the case in a lot of the Arab world



"I mean besides me even going into how the British were implicit in a lot of the Arab terrorists attacks on Jewish civilians in how they allowed (and even at times encouraged) it to happen etc.."


Mostly myth and about as absurd as "The Protocols Of The Elders Of Zion" which we all know not to be true. ..
Just because you claim and linked the British actions in Palestine as false to the protocols of Zionism which are indeed false, doesn’t mean that it’s false

I can get into it, and bring down dates and incidents to back up what I said, but that is off topic and like with you bringing the Irgun, it is just bringing little trees while missing the big forest.

"I can even dig up other conflicts from all sorts of times where some British solders have acted inhuman and savage."


I don't doubt it, we can be real b*stards, though I feel we have grown up a lot over the years. Indeed as we all have (and even then, with us, we for the most part did NOT support any such acts when a few of us committed them), though the Arab world IMO has not.


"I am having a bit of trouble of finding any more info on what happened in Britain at that time against the Jews living there, so perhaps you can show me any credible site that says it was just “some sporadic attacks on Jews in London and Manchester” and I would then take that into consideration (though I will also do a bit more research on this in the near future as well)

Most of the information that I have read on this subject was from two books one on Jewish migrants to the UK from the Baltic states 1800's to the 1980's and one on anti semitism in Europe, both were borrowed.Can you tell me the books names.

Anyways, my sources said widespread riots and your books said isolated incidents.

Perhaps we will need some better documented proof to back up my or your claims for as of yet, not me or you can back up our assertions.

Anyways there are plenty of books with all sorts of differing opinions and more research needs to be done to be more confident on what you or I are claiming about what happened against the Jews in Britain then.

Shalom :D

[chauncy republicans]

Your points valid but would have more ooomph if for instance the muslim clerics around the globe would actually tell their people in their own language that these "extremists" do not represent islam and are reprehensible rather than glorifying their martyrdom. Just a thought ;)
Actually a lot of them do...recently... over 70 palestinian intelectuals tried to send a peaceful mesage to angered palestinians. There is also the cleric in Iraq, sistani who preaches the use of non-violent protests to combat the coalition's "injustices". There are many others, but most people in the West dont find these stories very interesting, so they are never reported by the media. Try and educate yourself, instead of blind yourself by ingnorant stereo-types, and you will fair a lot better in debate!

[StealthMode]

I got this off of one of you guys posting this several months back.

This religon is a problem.... it is one major reason we do not have peace in the world. How can people live peaceful lives when there religon put this crap in there heads!

You can verify this as FACT by going to the following site, which offers 3 scholarly translations of each clause. I have done so, and regardless of independant translation, THIS is what is meant and said regardless of being extreme or not. My arab co worker trys to defend it by saying, "It is the uneducated who believe and understand sayings in the Koran as such, and they become extreme." I dont care if your hidding in a cave and the only thing you can do is read, or if your educated at a university, THIS IS WHAT IT SAYS, no other way to view it.... :slap:

Verify yourself: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/


Islam, the religion of peace…

"Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Koran 5:51)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

"If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them [infidels]" (Koran 8:65).

Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (Koran 9:3)

"Fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5)

Our God tells us to "fight the unbelievers" and "He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them" (Koran 9:14).

"Until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Koran 9:29)

"Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place" (9:39).

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"Murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:40)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)

"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)

"strike off the heads of the disbelievers" (Koran 47:4)

"Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)

"You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' " (Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177)

The Prophet killed the men of the Jewish tribe Bani Quraiza (some 600 to 800 of them) and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims All the other Jews of Medina were exiled. (Bukhari 5:59:362)

The Prophet had the date-palms of the Jewish tribe of Bani-Al- Nadir burnt and cut down. "It was with Allah's permission" (Koran 59:5)

The Prophet said to Sa'd, :The Bani Quraiza have agreed to accept your verdict" Sa'd said, "Kill all their men and take their women and children as slaves" The Prophet replied, "You have judged according to God's Judgment" (Bukhari 5:59:447)

"The Christians say: The Christ is the son of Allah; "Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:29)

These are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them." (Sura 9:30)

"Unbelievers are those who say: 'God is one of three.' There is but one God. If they do not desist from so saying, those of them that disbelieve shall be sternly punished." (Surah 5:73)
:bash: stupid religon, change my mind if you can

[chauncy republicans]

I wonder who translated that!? Maybe Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson? :cantbeli: Try reading quran for yourself, then make an opinion!

[Spearin]

Maybe you read the wrong translation?

Every post you make reinforces my idea that you are extremely ignorant.

[ShadowNeo]

"Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191)
Hmmm, I don't believe in any real faith, and I have several Muslim friends. I wonder why they haven't decided to kill me yet?


"Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians"

Strange, my Muslim friends happen to have close friendships with those of other religions. One of my best friends happens to have a Christian girlfriend.

Islam can be just as applicable to modern times as any other religion, and modern day Muslims, from my experience, generally see Islam as a set of general rules, rather than orders which they must follow.

It, quite frankly, disgusts me to see the one-sided opinion some people here have of the Muslim faith in general.

[TALOS]

I wonder who translated that!? Maybe Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson? :cantbeli: Try reading quran for yourself, then make an opinion!
Have you read the quran? can you read arabic? what do you use as a translation? :cantbeli:
You are quite caustic and snotty in your posts but please back up what you say, that goes for this comment of yours also:

Actually a lot of them do...recently... over 70 palestinian intelectuals tried to send a peaceful mesage to angered palestinians. There is also the cleric in Iraq, sistani who preaches the use of non-violent protests to combat the coalition's "injustices". There are many others, but most people in the West dont find these stories very interesting, so they are never reported by the media. Try and educate yourself, instead of blind yourself by ingnorant stereo-types, and you will fair a lot better in debate!
Sending a message to people saying, " dont be so upset" is different than saying " what you are doing is WRONG!"
You show me where thay have done that, back up your own comments Chauncey.

[StealthMode]

I cannot read arabic. And I have only referenced the quran, never read it.

I just went to this site and it offered 3 scholarly translations that all seemed to make the same conclusion on the qurans meaning.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

I may have been a little bit blunt, I also have Islamic friends.. and we have great discussion and learn from eachother.

The difference is, most educated people just ignore those aspects of the religon and the jihad garbage. They realize that there are other things in life to enjoy and live for, and IGNORE certain aspects of the quran.

And Islamic Shiria law and many things in the quran DO NOT FIT OR APPLY AT ALL in the progressive, evolving, civilized society. It may have had its place in the past, but in no way can it be positive for the future development of the world.

I have Islamic friends and learn from them, and they tell me about their religon. However, I still believe it is full of arrogance and hate against others. Just RESEARCH THE LINES IN IT, and FIND TRANSLATIONS, you CAN NOT REALLY miss some of it.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

property as in a house? So where and how much? p-)

Remember it’s all about location, location, location
Still in South West Scotland and not to expensive as I want to keep some money from this sale to buy a plot of land for a new home that I should be able to afford in about 3 years (hope).


IMO if they targeted civilians then indeed they were terrorists, but so far I haven’t seen any of that and you certainly didn’t bring anything to back up your claims before that they were terrorists.

Also Irgun and Lehi were not all terrorists and in fact most usually only targeted military targets.

Yes IDFM203 you are correct Irgun and Lehi (Stern Gang) conducted most of there operations against British military targets but were involved in the killings of Arab civilians, many of those attacks were acts of retribution.
I do not have the exact numbers of civilian dead in Irguns operations but at Baldat al-Shaikh 31/01/1947 60 dead, Dair Yasin 10/04/1948 150-200? dead, The King David Hotel, it was a valid military target but there was a loss of civilian life Jewish,Arab and British, the December 13th bombings in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Lydda 18 dead.
I think we can safely assume that the Irguns and Lehi's activities come under the umbrella of terrorist acts rather than acts of insurrection, the Haganah must have seen the Irguns activities as a hindrance to their own operations or else the Yishuv would not have commissioned the "Hunting Season" there was great disgust at the time among Haganah members of Irguns and Lehi (Stern Gang) methods.
I think we could be splitting hairs IDFM203 but a terrorist is a terrorist unless you would call one HAMAS fighter who targets military targets in Israel a legitimate combative and a HAMAS fighter who blows up civilians on a bus a terrorist.
The names of the books I fail to remember but the one on Baltic Jews was self published in the UK but it may have been bought in Israel as it had a ink stamp on the inside cover in Hebrew script (the sort of stamp a book seller would use) the other book on anti-semitism I also can't remember but I might be able to borrow it again. About the anti-Jewish riots in Britain there are no decent articles of reference on this topic on the internet though I have heard of the riots between the Fascists and the combined might of Communists, anti-fascists and outfits such as the 43 Group in the East End of London at the same time so riots of some sort there may have been. Its worth remembering that the relationship between the Jewish community and others in the East End were very cosy and every time the BUF appeared in the area they were attacked by all as they were seen as a common enemy by a largely Labour voting neighbourhood.

[citizen-k]

Fighting an army who allows the Nazis to kill your people in gas chambers is different then blowing up school buses, don't you think?
If the army you are referring to is the British Army the one that fought tooth and nail against the Nazi's then I think your concept of morality is warped, I am sorry we did not fight harder against the Nazi's while your country men were disrupting our supply lines.:roll: I am glad that many in Palestine put aside their grievances with the British for a while and fought alongside us against Fascism.

1. Jews fought along with the British army against the Nazi's (especially in Africa + paratroopers who were sent to Europe) - there was a special british unit for Jews from Israel.
2. Palestinians (Arabs) were the allies of Nazi Germany...
3. Jews DID NOT disrupt supply lines to Europe or to Africa
4. Jews fought against the british mandate and the siege on immigrants.

If you really have no idea about the history of the british mandate in Israel - ask.

[One?]

2. Palestinians (Arabs) were the allies of Nazi Germany...

To my knowledge, hitler wanted to wipe out the arabs after the jews....

[ExtraT]

Islam permits everything that is deemed necessary by the Imams.

So, let's cut the crap about what's in Kuran, and what's not - it makes no f*cken difference.

Oh yeah, have you heard the latest news? Iraqis are using the mosque's towers as sniper nests. I guess they haven't read any of these things about "holiness" of Islam. rofl

[S'13]

2. Palestinians (Arabs) were the allies of Nazi Germany...

To my knowledge, hitler wanted to wipe out the arabs after the jews....

Maybe but that doesn't mean the Arabs didn't cooperate with the Nazis...

http://www.masada2000.org/mufti-Nazi.jpg
A picture taken in 1943 of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin el-Husseini reviewing Bosnian-Muslim troops - a unit of the "Hanjar (Saber) Division" of the Waffen SS which he personally recruited for Hitler.

[ExtraT]

2. Palestinians (Arabs) were the allies of Nazi Germany...

To my knowledge, hitler wanted to wipe out the arabs after the jews....

Where did you hear that bull****?

And don't tell me that Arabs weren't allied with the Nazis - it's a well documented fact.

[citizen-k]

another picture:

http://www.masada2000.org/mufti1.jpg



What is the Arab fascination with Hitler and Nazism? Maybe it's more deeply rooted that we had realized. On November 25, 1941 the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, went to visit Hitler in Germany. This in and of itself was not so unusual for, during much of World War II, leading Muslims including Haji Amin al-Husseini (Arafat's uncle!) collaborated with the Nazis. The Arab leader was assured by Hitler that once he [Hitler] ridded Europe of its Jews, he would do the same throughout Palestine. Although Heir Hitler is no longer with us, the Arab world is still bent on finishing his work! The Mufti commented, ""Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world."

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

1. Jews fought along with the British army against the Nazi's (especially in Africa + paratroopers who were sent to Europe) - there was a special british unit for Jews from Israel.
I am well aware of this, thus
I am glad that many in Palestine put aside their grievances with the British


2. Palestinians (Arabs) were the allies of Nazi Germany...
True though many Arabs could sense that it was their turn next.


3. Jews DID NOT disrupt supply lines to Europe or to Africa
You are aware of diversionary warfare tactics are you not, well blowing up oil pipelines in Haifa and general sabotage is a form of diversionary warfare tying down valuable manpower and hampering the war effort. I can accept that Irguns anti British efforts were at a low ebb during WW2 due to lack of support amongst the Jewish community in at the time. The Haganah were more far sighted and progressive and did much to keep the Irgun down during the war years.




If you really have no idea about the history of the british mandate in Israel - ask.
Looking at some of your recent posts I won't be asking you anything unless I need to know more details on Syrian goat shagging.

Fighting an army who allows the Nazis to kill your people in gas chambers
I still would like an explanation to this statement, maybe you don't think we tried hard enough?

[ExtraT]

Fighting an army who allows the Nazis to kill your people in gas chambers
I still would like an explanation to this statement, maybe you don't think we tried hard enough?

1. Deliberate denial of entry for Jewish refugees into Palestine. This, BTW, goes against British own policy of "establishing a homeland for Jews in Palestine"
2. Repeated refusal by British army to bomb German death camps. If gas chambers and railway leading to death camps were to be destroyed, this would have meant 1000s of jews saved.

I understand, that commiting already overstretched resources to bombing of deathcamps was, maybe, alittle unrealistic. But denying refugees to enter THEIR homeland is simply inexcusable.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

But denying refugees to enter THEIR homeland is simply inexcusable.
I agree.

[citizen-k]

1. Jews fought along with the British army against the Nazi's (especially in Africa + paratroopers who were sent to Europe) - there was a special british unit for Jews from Israel.
I am well aware of this, thus
I am glad that many in Palestine put aside their grievances with the British


2. Palestinians (Arabs) were the allies of Nazi Germany...
True though many Arabs could sense that it was their turn next.


3. Jews DID NOT disrupt supply lines to Europe or to Africa
You are aware of diversionary warfare tactics are you not, well blowing up oil pipelines in Haifa and general sabotage is a form of diversionary warfare tying down valuable manpower and hampering the war effort. I can accept that Irguns anti British efforts were at a low ebb during WW2 due to lack of support amongst the Jewish community in at the time. The Haganah were more far sighted and progressive and did much to keep the Irgun down during the war years.




If you really have no idea about the history of the british mandate in Israel - ask.
Looking at some of your recent posts I won't be asking you anything unless I need to know more details on Syrian goat shagging.

Fighting an army who allows the Nazis to kill your people in gas chambers
I still would like an explanation to this statement, maybe you don't think we tried hard enough?

As for syrian goats, well, I saw it happen ;)

I did not mean that the british army did not fight "hard enough" against the Nazi's or that it had anything to do with what happened in Nazi Germany. All I said was that a small part (as you know) fought against the british army (and the british army only - buses did not explode in London) only in attempt to allow immigration of Jews from Europe. (where they were murdered in gas chambers...)

I didn't try to accuse the British army - I only tried to emphasize the difference between the Jewish"fight" against occupation to the Palestinian one. (which doesn't include gas chambers but do have burning school buses)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I did not mean that the british army did not fight "hard enough" against the Nazi's or that it had anything to do with what happened in Nazi Germany. All I said was that a small part (as you know) fought against the british army (and the british army only - buses did not explode in London) only in attempt to allow immigration of Jews from Europe. (where they were murdered in gas chambers...)

I didn't try to accuse the British army - I only tried to emphasize the difference between the Jewish"fight" against occupation to the Palestinian one. (which doesn't include gas chambers but do have burning school buses)
Fair enough :) I am now busy preparing a list of questions on goat ***. :lol: Shame you did not take any photos of that incident the propaganda value would have been huge. ;)

[One?]

Don't say all arabs. Are you telling me mauritanians were involved? or those in yemen?

Thats the mufti of palestine. He cooperated with hitler maybe to kick out the british. I wasn't there so I can't realy say what they discussed.

[citizen-k]

I did not mean that the british army did not fight "hard enough" against the Nazi's or that it had anything to do with what happened in Nazi Germany. All I said was that a small part (as you know) fought against the british army (and the british army only - buses did not explode in London) only in attempt to allow immigration of Jews from Europe. (where they were murdered in gas chambers...)

I didn't try to accuse the British army - I only tried to emphasize the difference between the Jewish"fight" against occupation to the Palestinian one. (which doesn't include gas chambers but do have burning school buses)
Fair enough :) I am now busy preparing a list of questions on goat ***. :lol: Shame you did not take any photos of that incident the propaganda value would have been huge. ;)

It was filmed!

I don't think it will be published due to the nature of the cameraman ;)

[chauncy republicans]

Sending a message to people saying, " dont be so upset" is different than saying " what you are doing is WRONG!".
How do you know what was said!? There are many clerics, muftis, ayatolas, mulahs, whatever you want to call them preach non-violent and passive sermons a long with total condemnation of acts of violence. Maybe you should watch more c-span instead of Fox news then you wont have to ask for sources or evidence and you can hear it for yourself.
And as for translation...no I don't speak Aribic, but it is (the Quran) translated to English. *I.E. Not the 700 club version in which it says to kill all "Jews and Christians".

[Airborneranger4israel]

Ah, an anti-moslum/Islam-thread. How refreshing.

Althought the subject matter might be offensive. (i personally don't know because i don't know the source of the information) it is true in some sects of islam. For example in the radical ****e and shia movements led by shia cleric Moqtada al-Sadr.

But your point is well taken that we should be carefull not to blame the muslim population for terrorism. The majority of muslims do not support armed jihad.

[Airborneranger4israel]

Also if forgot to say that there are many islamic fundamentalist groups using mosques and religous buildings as sniper nests and entrenchments for their militia/ terrorists. Also they use schools which should be used to help educated the children and not expose them to violence and savagery.

[IDFM203]

”property as in a house? So where and how much? p-)

Remember it’s all about location, location, location”

Still in South West Scotland and not to expensive as I want to keep some money from this sale to buy a plot of land for a new home that I should be able to afford in about 3 years (hope). Good luck on that, for hell when I visit in three years I expect a nice guess room to stay at ;) :D



I think we can safely assume that the Irguns and Lehi's activities come under the umbrella of terrorist acts rather than acts of insurrection, no I disagree for MOST of their acts were aginst MILITARY targets and in some of the cases you outlined before they had warned all civilians to leave.

Now I am not excusing all their acts as I will explin a bit futher down………


”IMO if they targeted civilians then indeed they were terrorists, but so far I haven’t seen any of that and you certainly didn’t bring anything to back up your claims before that they were terrorists.

Also Irgun and Lehi were not all terrorists and in fact most usually only targeted military targets.”

Yes IDFM203 you are correct Irgun and Lehi (Stern Gang) conducted most of there operations against British military targets but were involved in the killings of Arab civilians, many of those attacks were acts of retribution. yes and the Arabs were involved in much more acts of killings against civilians and the British allowed that to go on without much defense for the Jews living there.

Hell how do you think these Jewish defense organizations even came about?, someone had to finally defend Jews and it sure as hell weren’t the British who were going to or even willing to do it.

Anyways like I said before, most of their acts were aginst military targets but yes some were against civilians and as such they were NOT accepted by most Jews and in fact most condemned those organizations for exactly their harsh tactics and when an act was committed it was NOT celebrated by most

MOST Israelis back then did not support any acts against civilians and did not celebrate it when one was committed, this is in stark contrast to the Arab terrorist organization that targeted civilians a lot and had almost full support by most Arabs.

(btw some of the acts you listed there by irgun, have a bit more details to it then just killing civilians but I will save it for other conversations for its little trees as compered to the bigger forest as I have explined before)



I think we could be splitting hairs IDFM203 but a terrorist is a terrorist unless you would call one HAMAS fighter who targets military targets in Israel a legitimate combative and a HAMAS fighter who blows up civilians on a bus a terrorist. ahh yes indeed I do recognize that a hamas fighter that only targets military targets is not a terrorist.
(I have said that in the past)

For me indeed one that purposely and intentionally targets civilians is a terrorist!!

Hamas MOST of the times purposely and intentionally targets civilians and not military targets,

That was not the case for irgun or lehi where MOST of their targeting were against MILITARY targets.

So no we aren’t spilliting hairs, but rather YOU are ;)


About the anti-Jewish riots in Britain there are no decent articles of reference on this topic on the internet Ok so you found nothing to back up what you said before.

Listen my Jewish sources say it was widespread riots and I have no reason not to believe them.

I was thinking that if you had concrete sources to back up your claims perhaps I should take a look at it but I haven’t seen it.

Now indeed you can say the same with my claims. So I guess we will have to end off merely with I agree to disagree and you have your view and I have mine.

Life moves on :D

Shalom :D

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Good luck on that, for hell when I visit in three years I expect a nice guess room to stay at ;) :D
You will have to give me fair warning as my Scottish/Iranian Jewish friend might not see eye to eye on politics and the last thing I want is a blazing row in Hebrew over supper.



Listen my Jewish sources say it was widespread riots and I have no reason not to believe them.
Give me some time on this one as its sort of interesting and worth looking into.

So I guess we will have to end off merely with I agree to disagree and you have your view and I have mine.
We agree to disagree IDFM203 though I do agree that the Mandate was less than fair.

[TALOS]

Sending a message to people saying, " dont be so upset" is different than saying " what you are doing is WRONG!".
How do you know what was said!? There are many clerics, muftis, ayatolas, mulahs, whatever you want to call them preach non-violent and passive sermons a long with total condemnation of acts of violence. Maybe you should watch more c-span instead of Fox news then you wont have to ask for sources or evidence and you can hear it for yourself.And as for translation...no I don't speak Aribic, but it is (the Quran) translated to English. *I.E. Not the 700 club version in which it says to kill all "Jews and Christians".
Well I dont speak arabic so even if I listened to c-span I would have to trust someone elses translation. Interesting though that every translation I have seen of what has been said has never been "the insurgents are WRONG, what they are doing OFFENDS Islam and the people of Islam" and you and I both know they never will, either because they approve of it or are just afraid of the extremists makes no difference. Until they start condemning the insurgents for their terrorist acts and senseless murders it will always have popular support from the little people.

edit:
There are many clerics, muftis, ayatolas, mulahs, whatever you want to call them preach non-violent and passive sermons a long with total condemnation of acts of violence
Oh, and its easy to say those exist when neither of us speak arabic, but who do they direct those statements at? The Americans, or the insurgents?
I know that in recent days that may actually be true of Sistani, but from what I hear the clerics say they will oppose any action by the US in Najaf. They have not condemned Mucktard per se and if they have its been in private not from their (pulpits?)

[IDFM203]

Good luck on that, for hell when I visit in three years I expect a nice guess room to stay at ;) :D
You will have to give me fair warning as my Scottish/Iranian Jewish friend might not see eye to eye on politics and the last thing I want is a blazing row in Hebrew over supper. hey man, so you don’t think I have any “lefty” friends or that I only eat dinner with like minded people.

Gees I know how to behave my self especially when I am a guest

Listen we can talk about sports the weather fishing etc… :D (you be surprised I can talk about other things besides politics ;) )

And even if we get into politics I know how to recognize my surroundings and keep it on a low respectful level regardless of how your friend might react.

Anyways I can take a hint when it is given to me p-) ….fine, recommend a nice hotel if you can? ;)

"Listen my Jewish sources say it was widespread riots and I have no reason not to believe them.”

Give me some time on this one as its sort of interesting and worth looking into. indeed.

Btw even if what you say is true, that is still unjustified to happen in your nation at that time.

But yeah I think it was widespread riots and you say not…..I guess we will both need to do more research on this.

(if I find anything I will come back to this thread)

Shalom :D

[Airborneranger4israel]

Although this argument can go on forever i think we should look at it in perspective. I mean we are all pretty much people in the military and we are all the good guys. It is stupid to be having endless arguments amoungst ourselves.
Lets not let the enemy (terrorists) cause us to turn on each other.

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

I think you will find the Scottish / Iranian Reform Jewish Left Wing Feminist mix a bit scary though if you give me time I can work on her. :)

[Mr Gently Benevolent]

Although this argument can go on forever i think we should look at it in perspective. I mean we are all pretty much people in the military and we are all the good guys. It is stupid to be having endless arguments amoungst ourselves.
Lets not let the enemy (terrorists) cause us to turn on each other.
But we like it. :)

[IDFM203]

I think you will find the Scottish / Iranian Reform Jewish Left Wing Feminist mix a bit scary though if you give me time I can work on her. :)Nothing I havent handled before ;)

Belive me when you find out my mix, it will make her's seem A LOT less scary ;)

Shalom :D

[TALOS]

I think you will find the Scottish / Iranian Reform Jewish Left Wing Feminist mix a bit scary though if you give me time I can work on her. :)
WOW. sounds like my mother in law :oops: THAT IS SCARY

[786mine]

1) A polytheist prisoner must be killed. No amnesty may be granted to him, nor can he be ransomed.
2) All infidel polytheists and the People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians) are to be killed. They may not be granted amnesty, nor can they be ransomed.
3) Amnesty and ransom are the only two ways to deal with prisoners.
4) Amnesty and ransom are possible only after the killing of a large number of prisoners.
5) The Imam, or someone acting on his behalf, can choose between killing, amnesty, ransom or enslaving the prisoner.
Killing a Prisoner for the Sins of Others is Permissible

In reaction to the arguments made by some critics that no one should be punished for the sins of others, the author maintains that Allah permits the killing of a prisoner because he is a prisoner, and all the more so if his killing for the sins of others serves an important Islamic interest, as well as a deterrent (to the enemy). He brings examples from actions of the Prophet. A state of war justifies actions of the sort that could guarantee the security of the soldiers of Islam. Moreover, only with such action is it possible to protect the honor of Muslims.(2)

In an article titled “Are Hostages Prisoners?” the author explains the concept of “hostages” in its modern application to local kidnapped individuals and foreigners who are held as a means of pressure to achieve specific goals. According to him, he who was kidnapped in accordance with Islamic law should be considered a hostage, and hence a prisoner, who should be treated in the manner that would bring benefits to the Muslims.
http://www.qoqaz.com/

Its a bunch of crap, atleast there is one good point, anything posted at http://www.qoqaz.com/ are lies! :D

[Argyll]

The topic has gone way "off topic" and once again the Arab Israeli situation has dominated a topic that had nothing to do with it.

Either get it back on topic or it gets locked

[SeanAshi]

Islam prohibits the killing of prisoners? Tell that to Nick Berg's family.

[Truthsayer]

Islam prohibits the killing of prisoners? Tell that to Nick Berg's family.

Those people are extremist and ****ing scum. Not 'religious' people, more then 'we are the people of God and are always right since he is right'.

The 'average' extremist mofo that is.

[RomanS]

Islam prohibits the killing of prisoners? Tell that to Nick Berg's family.

Those people are extremist and f*** scum. Not 'religious' people, more then 'we are the people of God and are always right since he is right'.

The 'average' extremist mofo that is.

SO what are good muslims are doing about this right now?
As far as I know you need resourses, money, and a hell a lot of SUPPORT to stay in business, fight and cut heads. They sure do have a lot of everything there.

[Truthsayer]

Islam prohibits the killing of prisoners? Tell that to Nick Berg's family.

Those people are extremist and f*** scum. Not 'religious' people, more then 'we are the people of God and are always right since he is right'.

The 'average' extremist mofo that is.

SO what are good muslims are doing about this right now?
As far as I know you need resourses, money, and a hell a lot of SUPPORT to stay in business, fight and cut heads. They sure do have a lot of everything there.


"What where the average american doing before the Oklahoma bombing?"

Last time I checked not all americans was living in a cabine in Montana (Una Bomber) or conspiring the overthrow the goverment. So how could they exist? (Don't bother answering it, it's an retorical question if you ever heard about them.)

[RomanS]

Truthsayer, how about your walk the walk about my offer in our PM?

[Truthsayer]

Truthsayer, how about your walk the walk about my offer in our PM?

No, I'm marrried, but thanks anyway.

[One?]

What is the pope doing in the case of christian militants attacking muslims in Sudan?


Just because he is catholic doesn't mean he controls other sects of christianity. Same with Islam.


And if islam prohibits something and you break that rule then obviously you aren't a muslim its as simple as that.

[EvanL]

What is the pope doing in the case of christian militants attacking muslims in Sudan?


Just because he is catholic doesn't mean he controls other sects of christianity. Same with Islam.


And if islam prohibits something and you break that rule then obviously you aren't a muslim its as simple as that.smartest thing to ever come out of your mouth since joining.
thank you

[RomanS]

[quote=PermskiiOMON]Truthsayer, how about your walk the walk about my offer in our PM?


No

Thought so

[Truthsayer]

Truthsayer, how about your walk the walk about my offer in our PM?


No

Thought so

Falsefying qoutes should be an banna'ble offence.

Not that that seems to bother you, with your own board opening up and all. (For the 'real' men, huh?)

[RomanS]

Truthsayer, how about your walk the walk about my offer in our PM?


No

Thought so

Falsefying qoutes should be an banna'ble offence.

Not that that seems to bother you, with your own board opening up and all. (For the 'real' men, huh?)

No, for anyone who wants to get more detailed information about Russian Arms, and military.

The page is being made by my very close friend active sniper from OMSN. The page will have a forum where Mikhail Dragunov, Kalashnikov's family, and other Russian weapon designers will be able to answer and talk about Russian guns and military.

Anyone can join, even mustamato. But any Russian, or US bashing will be delt with VERY QUICKLY.

[EvanL]

Truthsayer, how about your walk the walk about my offer in our PM?


No

Thought so

Falsefying qoutes should be an banna'ble offence.

Not that that seems to bother you, with your own board opening up and all. (For the 'real' men, huh?)

No, for anyone who wants to get more detailed information about Russian Arms, and military.

The page is being made by my very close friend active sniper from OMSN. The page will have a forum where Mikhail Dragunov, Kalashnikov's family, and other Russian weapon designers will be able to answer and talk about Russian guns and military.

Anyone can join, even mustamato. But any Russian, or US bashing will be delt with VERY QUICKLY.
OMSN?
is that like your friends on MSN?
;)

[Beowulf]

The topic has gone way "off topic" and once again the Arab Israeli situation has dominated a topic that had nothing to do with it.

Either get it back on topic or it gets locked

locked

"lockapalooza" will continue until things settle down a bit.