Ever wondered how many tanks, soldiers and fighters EU have?

[mustamato]

And i don't think EU has more tanks than US, not a chance.

I become interested in how it was so checked it up, I saw that Haiw did something
similar already, but anyway.

Sources I used:
http://disarmament2.un.org/cab/register.html
http://www.bundesheer.at/truppendienst/milint/td_milint-overview.php?id_r=1

Some problems: Especially in the UN list, some countries have listed everything
with armour (ex. M109 artillery) as "armoured combat vehicles" while other countries
only have listed IFV´s (and APC´s to some extenth) as it. Also it is of course
impossible to have a exactly up to date list. But it should be something like this:

Belgium: Battle tanks 143. Armoured combat vehicles 894
Denmark: Battle tanks 248. Armoured combat vehicles 323
Germany: Battle tanks 2398. Armoured combat vehicles 3998
Greece: Battle tanks 1723. Armoured combat vehicles 2269
Spain: Battle tanks 687. Armoured combat vehicles 2341
France: Battle tanks 1069. Armoured combat vehicles 3565
Ireland: Battle tanks 0. Armoured combat vehicles 113
Italy: Battle tanks 699. Armoured combat vehicles 2692
Luxembourg: Battle tanks 0. Armoured combat vehicles - not listed
Netherlands: Battle tanks 300. Armoured combat vehicles 1430
Austria: Battle tanks 172. Armoured combat vehicles 728
Portugal: Battle tanks 187. Armoured combat vehicles 378
Finland: Battle tanks 268. Armoured combat vehicles 1176
Sweden: Battle tanks 280. Armoured combat vehicles 2244
Great Britain: Battle tanks 594. Armoured combat vehicles 5098
Czech Republic: Battle tanks 541. Armoured combat vehicles 1984
Estonia: Battle tanks 0. Armoured combat vehicles 24
Cyprus: Battle tanks 154. Armoured combat vehicles 476
Latvia: Battle tanks 3. Armoured combat vehicles 15
Lithuania: Battle tanks 0. Armoured combat vehicles 97
Hungary: Battle tanks 170. Armoured combat vehicles 1345
Malta: Battle tanks 0. Armoured combat vehicles - not listed
Poland: Battle tanks 947. Armoured combat vehicles 2766
Slovenia: Battle tanks 76. Armoured combat vehicles 98
Slovakia: Battle tanks 278. Armoured combat vehicles 1009

EU´s combined amount of battle tanks: 10937
EU´s combined amount of armoured combat vechicles: 35063

And the three EU candidate countries that may join EU some day

Turkey: Battle tanks 4205. Armoured combat vehicles 4293
Romania: Battle tanks 1272. Armoured combat vehicles 3086
Bulgaria: Battle tanks 1434. Armoured combat vehicles 1954

And just as a comparison:

China: Battle tanks: 8300 Armoured combat vehicles 4100
USA: Battle tanks: 7837. Armoured combat vehicles 25164
Russia: Battle tanks 21820. Armoured combat vehicles 29025

[MaDuce]

Thats useful info to know when the EU merges into one nation.

[venture160]

I agree, the EU will become very powerfull once they are able to greater harmonize their political system

[Jack Mehoff]

EU becomes a nation? :lol:

[venture160]

no, a system of federated states, like Imanuel Kant envisioned

[Catch22]

Heh guys - just look at Russia's score :roll: Remember the Cold War doctrine? :lol:

[mustamato]

EU becomes a nation? :lol:

Well, would be quite impossible to become a nation considering that it within
EU lives hundreds of different nations. But it can become a state. And just to
clarify, a nation and a state is two completely different things.

[venture160]

yea well russia was a economic ****storm and they couldn't keep up, but the EU on the other hand has an economy that is bigger than ours.

[duck]

...And that will happen soon after Hell freezes over. There is no way Britain and France or Germany and Italy will "harmonize" their foreign policy.

[Fioraon]

Thats useful info to know when the EU merges into one nation.

Useful for what? Euros have no spine.

[MaDuce]

Thats useful info to know when the EU merges into one nation.

Useful for what? Euros have no spine.

True good call on keeping the Pound for the UK.

[Catch22]

@ mustamato

Quite like "United States" differs from "United Nations" ;)

[mustamato]

By the way, both Romania and Bulgaria (candidate countries to EU) still have
SU-100´s as a "tactical reserve" I learned when putting that list together. Hm,
some modern shiat:

http://www.battlefield.ru/tanks/su100/su100_1.jpg

http://www.battlefield.ru/tanks/su100/su100_7.jpg
World war 2 picture


@ mustamato

Quite like "United States" differs from "United Nations" ;)

When I studied political history at a University once I had a professor that used
to complain on that, "it´s stupid that they call it UN, say one state that allows
all nations within the state to be represented?".

[Brozozo]

yea well russia was a economic ****storm and they couldn't keep up, but the EU on the other hand has an economy that is bigger than ours.

Their economy isn't as big as the American one yet I believe, but that's not the point...

[venture160]

umm according to the economist it is, and if its not now by a fraction of a percent, it will be in the future

[Haiw]

Thats useful info to know when the EU merges into one nation.

Useful for what? Euros have no spine.

True good call on keeping the Pound for the UK.
Tell that to all the companies in the UK that are missing out on profit because they don't have the Euro...

[duck]

How many carrier battle groups will China have in 20 years time?

Who cares about tank numbers.

[venture160]

china might have 1, if that. I think everyone should read the first chapter of Joseph S. Nye's book, soft power, and goes through all the powerfull countries int he world that might challenge american dominance, and the EU is by far the nearest in a timeframe sense challenger, most people dont expect china to really challenge the US for another 50 years

[Hydro]

EU superstate, argh....I love Europe to bits, beautiful countries, beautiful people, but I hate Euro-politics so much... I'd rather things stayed as they are, really...

[HELEX]

So what is your Problem with europe?

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Its not how many of whatever type of weapon you have that counts, its what your soldiers are capable of that makes the difference.

The US military is trained to a certain standard using specific doctrine.

The EU member countries mostly train to different standards using their own doctrine which isn't necessarily compatible.

[Romulus]

So what is your Problem with europe?

I'm guessing the same problem you got with the US.

[Soulhunter]

Sorry, I wanted to be quiet ... but is this becoming a 'who's got the biggest ****' thread?

[HELEX]

I'm guessing the same problem you got with the US.

No that is not possible, we didnt start an illegal attack war justified by lies in recent time. :lol:

[Hydro]

So what is your Problem with europe?

I don't have a problem with Europe. I love Europe. It's got some lovely countries in it. I hate European politics. I don't like how Brussels likes poking it's nose into everything. It's like someone being convicted in a British court, then they go to the European Courts and get their conviction overturned, because they're two different justice systems, it's the incessant bitching and whining over trivial ****ty things like "Who owns the cow ****e in the Alsace region?" And of course the infinitely legendary "Regulation EU banana curviness" and so on... I just think Brussels tries to satisfy everyone, and ends up satisfying no-one.

Maybe I'm just one of those Brits who subconciously feels the sovereignty and government of this country is under threat...;)

[HELEX]

Sorry, I wanted to be quiet ... but is this becoming a 'who's got the biggest ****' thread?

No, there is no need to discuss this question: I have.

[Soulhunter]

ok

[Haiw]

Sorry, I wanted to be quiet ... but is this becoming a 'who's got the biggest ****' thread?

No, there is no need to discuss this question: I have.
He meant biggest *****, not biggest dildo...

[HELEX]

Wanna see it?

[Haiw]

No thanks, I'd rather be spared from nightmares for the rest of my life...

[Hydro]

For a board that Seoulstriker resides on, HELEX's dildo probably wouldn't raise any eyebrows...

[HELEX]

Sure? Orang Utans are not that impressive in size.....

[Guttorm]

I'd post one of those "this thread is gay" pictures, but it's been done sooo many times before...

It started out informative and ok, but then it just turned into EU vs US vs RUSSIA vs CHINA

:|

*humming* "why can't weee be friends, why can't we be friends"

[Catch22]

Guttorm - would you after reading all his recent posting find befriending HELEX possible? Or rather worth the time spent? I'd rather go rune-craving along mustamato than hope our Teutoburgian* poster wont ruin another thread :|

* Poor Varus, he really should kicked Hermans ass then, maybe HELEX wolud be polite, and generally more amiable nowadays... :roll:

[Shadow]

I am curious how many soldiers we have in europe.
Anybody got the numbers?

[mustamato]

I am curious how many soldiers we have in europe.
Anybody got the numbers?

Well, here is the amount of soldier the EU countries have after mobilization, regular
soldiers + reserves, this also included the paramilitary units, in example the carabinieri
in Italy. And how many birds protects them in the air, fighter planes and I also included training
aircraft that can be used as light attack, in example the BAe Hawk/Alpha etc. Again the problem
is that the numbers is not to 100% up to date, so give or take a few here and there, but it
is sometime like his, but feel free to correct me:

Belgium: 151080 soldiers. 90 fighter planes.
Denmark: 86300 soldiers. 68 figher planes.
Germany: 671900 soldiers. 456 figher planes.
Greece: 450170 soldiers. 486 fighter planes.
Spain: 471950 soldiers. 228 fighter planes.
France: 692740 soldiers. 572 fighter planes.
Ireland: 258000 soldiers. 7 fighter planes.
Italy: 547750 soldiers. 342 fighhter planes.
Luxembourg: 1512 soldiers. 0 fighter planes.
Netherlands: 82630 soldiers. 157 fighter planes.
Austria: 106600 soldiers. 52 fighter planes.
Portugal: 300930 soldiers. 66 fighter planes.
Finland: 490000 soldiers. 105 fighter planes.
Sweden: 295900 soldiers. 354 fighter planes.
Great Britain: 458530 soldiers. 427 fighter planes.
Czech Republic: 60200 soldiers. 75 fighter planes.
Estonia: 25950 soldiers. 0 fighter planes.
Cyprus: 70750 soldiers. 9 fighter planes.
Latvia: 24400 soldiers. 0 fighter planes.
Lithuania: 44950 soldiers. 10 fighter planes.
Hungary: 124100 soldiers. 68 fighter planes.
Malta: 1900 soldiers. 0 fighter planes.
Poland: 612000 soldiers. 240 fighter planes.
Slovenia: 73100 soldiers. 14 fighter planes.
Slovakia: 577000 soldiers. 84 fighter planes.

EU´s combined amount of soldiers: 6680342 (6.7 million)
EU´s combined amount of fighter planes: 3454

And the three EU candidate countries that may join EU some day

Turkey: 1046000 soldiers. 505 fighter planes.
Romania: 648900 soldiers. 313 fighter planes.
Bulgaria: 414260 soldiers. 105 fighter planes.

And just as a comparison:

China: 3610000 soldiers. figher planes 5000(?)
USA: 2568300 soldiers. fighter planes - ? (someone care to contribute?)
Russia: 2150000 soldiers. fighter planes - ? (someone care to contribute?)

[duck]

How many soldiers can each of these countries airlift, with their equipment, say to North Africa if needed? For a peace-keeping/enforcement operation lasting 3-6 months, without outside support?

How many would agree to go?

[perdurabo]

i think we should count romania and bulgaria as 90% in (maybe in 2008 or somthing like that but in)
Turkey out it would destroy whole budget of EU...

and what about transport planes ships military budgets etc...maybe we should make a total counting about EU now (+EU future countrys just litle below...)
and total counting of bigger countrys that can be world superpower or regional superpower (Russia China India USA, any else?)
Also GDP would be niece...;-)

[haze99]

Musatmato, if I am battling insurgents, I will take a SU-100 or T-34/85 for support any day of the week!!
So when will the EU decide on the EU Armed Forces uniforms?

[mustamato]

Musatmato, if I am battling insurgents, I will take a SU-100 or T-34/85 for support any day of the week!!

So true, also I guess that both in Bulgaria, and especially in Romania the leadership
had fears of revolution under the cold war, and well, then those old tank destroyers
could have been handy. But their protection is somewhat obsolete of course,
and firepower.

http://www.marttitikka.net/images/bosnia/Kuva305.jpg
That T-34/85 outside Doboj, Bosnia. Don´t know what happened to
it, hm, maybe it hit a anti-tank mine?

http://www.marttitikka.net/images/bosnia/Bos010c.jpg

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7094&start=0

If I was a dictator in a poor country I would rather buy a couple of Stingrays
or something like that, they are cheap and still usefull to more than only fighting
insurgents.

http://www.army-technology.com/contractor_images/textron/image-4.jpg


So when will the EU decide on the EU Armed Forces uniforms?

Well, probably not in our lifetime. But maybe we will see some kind of standardized
EU-badges or something like that (as the ones in the Eurocorps), but adapting
a standardized as the US Army BDU, well probably not.

[perdurabo]

Well, probably not in our lifetime. But maybe we will see some kind of standardized
EU-badges or something like that (as the ones in the Eurocorps), but adapting
a standardized as the US Army BDU, well probably not.
Maybe we will see one type of cammo also ?? (not Atypes etc but only field use...)

[SerbPVO]

Where is is Serbia & Montenegro?
We got over 3000 tanks.

[mustamato]

Where is is Serbia & Montenegro?
We got over 3000 tanks.

... and still not members of the European Union.

[SerbPVO]

Well, you think Turkey is gonna join before us?

[mack pl]

i think slovakia have only 57000 soldiers, not 577000.

[mack pl]

Well, you think Turkey is gonna join before us?Defiantely yes.Turkey is more important for UE than Serbia.BTW I think you should join EU and NATO, slavic brothers :)

[SerbPVO]

Seriously, I think Russia, Ukraine and Belarus have a better chance of joinin EU than TUrkey.

Turkey has nothing in common with Europe.

[mustamato]

i think slovakia have only 57000 soldiers, not 577000.

Oh yes of course, typo, it was based on "The regular forces are 33 000
people. (including 3 000 people in units and institutions of the central subordination).
The reserve (National Guard) - 20 000 people."

And Turkey is a candidate country while Serbia is not, that says a lot atleast
to me. Turkey doesn´t need help to the amount that Serbia does, from a economic
and political point of view I would like to see Turkey in the EU, well Serbia as well
some day, but they better fix all that **** they have in their country first.

[fdt]

Number of troops, tanks, planes, APC's, carriers, rockets, nukes... all this counts when it deterrs someone from attacking or when You have a chance to use it somehow... According to presently presented EU defense doctrine we don't treat Russia as a potential enemy (they are our friends :)), we don't want wage a war with US... and we still want to strenghten our military potential... I don't get it... We declare Russia and US our friends and allies or... all that talk is BS, because in fact we are to prepare to deter or fight one of those two... otherwise what would we need so many tanks for? What we need so big military potential if we are not planning nor willing to use it (as we declare...:)). If such a thing as "military doctrine" of EU exists: what are the potential threats we should prepare for? Who is envisaged as our future target of our tanks, Tiger helos, Eurofighter planes and carriers? Anyone knows?

[perdurabo]

Number of troops, tanks, planes, APC's, carriers, rockets, nukes... all this counts when it deterrs someone from attacking or when You have a chance to use it somehow... According to presently presented EU defense doctrine we don't treat Russia as a potential enemy (they are our friends :)), we don't want wage a war with US... and we still want to strenghten our military potential... I don't get it... We declare Russia and US our friends and allies or... all that talk is BS, because in fact we are to prepare to deter or fight one of those two... otherwise what would we need so many tanks for? What we need so big military potential if we are not planning nor willing to use it (as we declare...:)). If such a thing as "military doctrine" of EU exists: what are the potential threats we should prepare for? Who is envisaged as our future target of our tanks, Tiger helos, Eurofighter planes and carriers? Anyone knows?
first we don't have one military but combined militarys of almoust 20countrys Poland itselfe needs about 1000tanks and more than 2-3tousand of APCs to cover our land ... but if we combine all our militarys we would need troops near borders and ships on sea shore also aircrafts on borders ... maybe in 100 yrs EU will become one country with one military then numbers of troops will be much lower inside ....

[Thor]

Turkey will probably never join the EU.

The same goes for Russia.

[tooms]

Turkey will probably never join the EU.

The same goes for Russia.

I agree.
France doesn't want Turkey in EU now ( probably in the futur too).

What are the other EU countries governments opinion ?

[infinite]

The EU is useless. It doesn't matter how many troops, or tanks, or fighter planes the countries have - the majority of it is old, outdated and useless, the troops (as a general rule, not counting Britian, France, Germany etc) have less/inferior training, and they can't move any of their troops or equipment in a timely fashion. The US can put 2700 troops on the ground anywhere in the world within 18 hours. 'Nuff said.

[-Max2-]

The EU is useless. It doesn't matter how many troops, or tanks, or fighter planes the countries have - the majority of it is old, outdated and useless, the troops (as a general rule, not counting Britian, France, Germany etc) have less/inferior training, and they can't move any of their troops or equipment in a timely fashion. The US can put 2700 troops on the ground anywhere in the world within 18 hours. 'Nuff said.

Congrats. You won the Ignorant post of the Month Award...

[mustamato]

The EU is useless. It doesn't matter how many troops, or tanks, or fighter planes the countries have - the majority of it is old, outdated and useless, the troops (as a general rule, not counting Britian, France, Germany etc) have less/inferior training, and they can't move any of their troops or equipment in a timely fashion. The US can put 2700 troops on the ground anywhere in the world within 18 hours. 'Nuff said.

1.) Less inferior training? Tell me one country in EU where the training of the
soldiers makes them crappy soldiers, seen from a individual point of view.

2.) Yes, if we look at the EU countries air forces in example, most of the airplanes
are soooo obsolete, Hornets, Falcons, Mirages, Gripens, and in the near future
Eurofighters and what not. The "eurotank", Leopard 2 is a real piece of **** as well,
:roll:

3.) Well I don´t see why EU should have the cability to airlift 6.7 million soldiers
to Mongolia or some other strange place. But the cabilities to move large amounts
of troops to in example a hotspot in northern Africa exists. Within 24 hours
thousands of troops would be in place, from the rapid reaction units. Deploying
troops doesn´t take that long, what takes time is the politicians debating wether
to do it or not.

4.) Conclusion, you are the one that is useless

[cut]

Turkey will probably never join the EU.

The same goes for Russia.

I agree.
France doesn't want Turkey in EU now ( probably in the futur too).

What are the other EU countries governments opinion ?

The french are the only ones that are strongly against it, I don't think the german's are overly keen, what with all the turkish they have in their country. The British government (Blair) would like Turkey to join if they can change and meet EU standards (economy, politcal freedoms and political rights), Marocco is another country that could potentially join the EU. Blair is keen (and was before iraq too) keen on expanding europe to any country that can meet the high entry standards, particularly if it shows there is no prejudice and brings us closer to the arab world.

I think there is no reason why marocco or turkey should not be allowed in if they don't meet our standards, they have much to offer. I don't think marocco would fit into plans of a federalised state system, but as part of a european trading block I don't see why not.

[Ichhabe]

The US can put 2700 troops on the ground anywhere in the world within 18 hours. 'Nuff said.

It seems like your are located where decissions are made: I dare you to put them directly on the spot of the South Pole. I double dare you. :D

[foxtrot023]

Turkey will probably never join the EU.

The same goes for Russia.

I agree.
France doesn't want Turkey in EU now ( probably in the futur too).

What are the other EU countries governments opinion ?

The french are the only ones that are strongly against it, I don't think the german's are overly keen, what with all the turkish they have in their country. The British government (Blair) would like Turkey to join if they can change and meet EU standards (economy, politcal freedoms and political rights), Marocco is another country that could potentially join the EU. Blair is keen (and was before iraq too) keen on expanding europe to any country that can meet the high entry standards, particularly if it shows there is no prejudice and brings us closer to the arab world.

I think there is no reason why marocco or turkey should not be allowed in if they don't meet our standards, they have much to offer. I don't think marocco would fit into plans of a federalised state system, but as part of a european trading block I don't see why not.

Morrocco and Turkey will join the EU about the same time Mexico and Guatemala become the US 52 and 53 state (being Canada the 51).

As a matter of fact, Mexico has more chances to join the US than Turkey and Morrocco have of joining the EU.

[cut]

Turkey will probably never join the EU.

The same goes for Russia.

I agree.
France doesn't want Turkey in EU now ( probably in the futur too).

What are the other EU countries governments opinion ?

The french are the only ones that are strongly against it, I don't think the german's are overly keen, what with all the turkish they have in their country. The British government (Blair) would like Turkey to join if they can change and meet EU standards (economy, politcal freedoms and political rights), Marocco is another country that could potentially join the EU. Blair is keen (and was before iraq too) keen on expanding europe to any country that can meet the high entry standards, particularly if it shows there is no prejudice and brings us closer to the arab world.

I think there is no reason why marocco or turkey should not be allowed in if they don't meet our standards, they have much to offer. I don't think marocco would fit into plans of a federalised state system, but as part of a european trading block I don't see why not.

Morrocco and Turkey will join the EU about the same time Mexico and Guatemala become the US 52 and 53 state (being Canada the 51).

As a matter of fact, Mexico has more chances to join the US than Turkey and Morrocco have of joining the EU.

Don't be so sure

[Korth]

The Turks and Moors are not European, so it is not logical that they join the EU.

If they do join, then the union is no longer a European one.

[cut]

The Turks and Moors are not European, so it is not logical that they join the EU.

If they do join, then the union is no longer a European one.

Why not, why do we have to stick to "Europe" no-one knows where the real borders or europe are, Europe used to be where the white people live, but that doesn't really matter.

Whatever happens Europe is the central part, other countries can tap in and contribute if it is wort it for us, why not.

[Korth]

I read you earlier posts cut, you love Islam and diversity more than you love the West.

If the Turks and Moors are going to join the Union, then don't call it the
European union.

[cut]

I read you earlier posts cut, you love Islam and diversity more than you love the West.

If the Turks and Moors are going to join the Union, then don't call it the
European union.

I love Islam? I never wrote that, I love no religion. I love the West, and therefore if the morrocco or turkey became part of the European union, they'd be so westernised they'd be considered part of the west. The only reason are talking about these two is because they have moved towards the west a lot in the past decade(s)

If the Turks and Morroccans join the European union, they will be EUROPEANS. It's not like they can join tomorrow, by the time they join they wouyld be VERY westernised, they'd have to be, they'd be more european than arab, african, or middle eastern.

[foxtrot023]

If the Turks and Morroccans join the European union, they will be EUROPEANS. It's not like they can join tomorrow, by the time they join they wouyld be VERY westernised,

Even if westernized, they can`t be europeans for many reasons, but I`ll start with the obvious one: Geographically, they are not even in Europe (even with the small toehold of Turkey´s).

Regards

[cut]

If the Turks and Morroccans join the European union, they will be EUROPEANS. It's not like they can join tomorrow, by the time they join they wouyld be VERY westernised,

Even if westernized, they can`t be europeans for many reasons, but I`ll start with the obvious one: Geographically, they are not even in Europe (even with the small toehold of Turkey´s).

Regards

The whole point of my argument, why does it matter when they become European/Western in every way but positionally or ethnically.

I think there is no reason why countries that WANT to be part of the EU and become western can not join the EU. It is often said that Australia is like part of Europe politically and culturally. This is what these countries would be like if they made the grade.

[foxtrot023]

The problem is that muslim nationals raise worries (yes, that is generalizing, but...) and security concerns. I think that the only muslim nation that can achieve something is Turkey, and even then they will grant Turkey a free trade agreement (similar to the one between Mexico and the US), wait and see.

Regards

[MEGR]

Never realized Russia had so many tanks..

[cut]

The problem is that muslim nationals raise worries (yes, that is generalizing, but...) and security concerns. I think that the only muslim nation that can achieve something is Turkey, and even then they will grant Turkey a free trade agreement (similar to the one between Mexico and the US), wait and see.

Regards

of course this is years, even decades in the future, but Turkey and Marrocco are the most westernised of the countries just outside conventional european boundaries, that are likely new-comers when all the european countries that want to join have joined.

[foxtrot023]

The problem is that muslim nationals raise worries (yes, that is generalizing, but...) and security concerns. I think that the only muslim nation that can achieve something is Turkey, and even then they will grant Turkey a free trade agreement (similar to the one between Mexico and the US), wait and see.

Regards

of course this is years, even decades in the future, but Turkey and Marrocco are the most westernised of the countries just outside conventional european boundaries, that are likely new-comers when all the european countries that want to join have joined.

Morrocco? They have less than 60% of the population with water! In the recent earthquake the king didn`t even went to see the Rif (region were it ocurred), and never mind the absolutist monarchy. No way jose!

[Korth]

Forget tanks, the EU needs a real navy.

A navy can project force around the world, especially when there are large aircraft carriers and amphibious assault ships with lots of marines.

[mustamato]

Forget tanks, the EU needs a real navy.

A navy can project force around the world, especially when there are large aircraft carriers and amphibious assault ships with lots of marines.

Ok, and what´s wrong with leasing civilian freight ships?

http://www.product-sources.com/Images/Sea%20Freight%20Photo.jpg
I wonder how many tanks would fit in this one. Hm.

[cut]

The problem is that muslim nationals raise worries (yes, that is generalizing, but...) and security concerns. I think that the only muslim nation that can achieve something is Turkey, and even then they will grant Turkey a free trade agreement (similar to the one between Mexico and the US), wait and see.

Regards

of course this is years, even decades in the future, but Turkey and Marrocco are the most westernised of the countries just outside conventional european boundaries, that are likely new-comers when all the european countries that want to join have joined.

Morrocco? They have less than 60% of the population with water! In the recent earthquake the king didn`t even went to see the Rif (region were it ocurred), and never mind the absolutist monarchy. No way jose!

oh yeah look at spain was a dictatorship for ages and you joined the EU not long after. I say just you wait.

[Korth]

Forget tanks, the EU needs a real navy.

A navy can project force around the world, especially when there are large aircraft carriers and amphibious assault ships with lots of marines.

Ok, and what´s wrong with leasing civilian freight ships?

http://www.product-sources.com/Images/Sea%20Freight%20Photo.jpg
I wonder how many tanks would fit in this one. Hm.

Leased freight ship are fine for carrying supplies, but they are not amphib assault ships.

Even so, you still need a large surface fleet to protect those troop transports and to deliver shore bombardment to prep the landing area for the amphibious assault.

[mustamato]

Leased freight ship are fine for carrying supplies, but they are not amphib assault ships.

Even so, you still need a large surface fleet to protect those troop transports and to deliver shore bombardment to prep the landing area for the amphibious assault.

When exactly and in which scenario would that be needed?

[Korth]

Leased freight ship are fine for carrying supplies, but they are not amphib assault ships.

Even so, you still need a large surface fleet to protect those troop transports and to deliver shore bombardment to prep the landing area for the amphibious assault.

When exactly and in which scenario would that be needed?

Force projection. Anytime, anywhere.

Sailing a fleet in international waters close to the target is enough to smooth out diplomatic solutions to global problems. If diplomatic solutions fail, then there is the military option.

[Loco]

oh yeah look at spain was a dictatorship for ages and you joined the EU not long after. I say just you wait.
Some prominent european politician said accurately, in my opinion, that is alway the people that don´t like EU or don´t support the idea of a developped EU that support the joining of countries like Turky or Marroq to EU. Regarding Spain, this wasn´t a dictatorship for ages, but for decaded, you don´t exagerate in a demagogic way. And we were under a dictatorship with the help of western democracies when spanish people fought with naked hands agains fascits. Cut, you british, please, my grandspas knew what was being under a Stuka before yours. And you know it´s quite different comparing dictatorships like Marroq with Franco´s dictatorship. It´s not only a question of regime, but of culture and human development. Marroq, still, it´s in many ways a medioeval country.

[StarvingStudent47]

Leased freight ship are fine for carrying supplies, but they are not amphib assault ships.

Even so, you still need a large surface fleet to protect those troop transports and to deliver shore bombardment to prep the landing area for the amphibious assault.

When exactly and in which scenario would that be needed?

You ask why transport ships need escort?

http://pages.zdnet.com/vancell/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/stuka8x.jpg

You ask why transport ships need heavily armed ships for beach bombardment, and military landing craft to deliver the goods? Gosh, I can think of a few times when the folks we were fighting didn't want us to land...

http://userpages.umbc.edu/~khirsc1/images/d-day.jpg

[perdurabo]

turkey marocco or russia in EU rofl rofl rofl rofl
(russia will never wan't that they wan't to be superpower alone without any Poles Spaniards Italians Germans etc saying them what to do, also it wolud mean that they would have the biggest power in parliment because they have bigger population and land i can't see Paris and Berlin letting that happen)
Turkey and Marocco belong tu muslim world not to european just look how womens are threaten there how streets look alike etc. if you look at streets of budapest or vilnus you will see only small difrence beatwin tham and london paris or berlin we on estern europe are only poorer than westerners but it will change in next 10-20 yrs ....

[SiFiOn]

And i don't think EU has more tanks than US, not a chance.

I become interested in how it was so checked it up, I saw that Haiw did something
similar already, but anyway.

Sources I used:
http://disarmament2.un.org/cab/register.html
http://www.bundesheer.at/truppendienst/milint/td_milint-overview.php?id_r=1

Some problems: Especially in the UN list, some countries have listed everything
with armour (ex. M109 artillery) as "armoured combat vehicles" while other countries
only have listed IFV´s (and APC´s to some extenth) as it. Also it is of course
impossible to have a exactly up to date list. But it should be something like this:

Belgium: Battle tanks 143. Armoured combat vehicles 894
Denmark: Battle tanks 248. Armoured combat vehicles 323
Germany: Battle tanks 2398. Armoured combat vehicles 3998
Greece: Battle tanks 1723. Armoured combat vehicles 2269
Spain: Battle tanks 687. Armoured combat vehicles 2341
France: Battle tanks 1069. Armoured combat vehicles 3565
Ireland: Battle tanks 0. Armoured combat vehicles 113
Italy: Battle tanks 699. Armoured combat vehicles 2692
Luxembourg: Battle tanks 0. Armoured combat vehicles - not listed
Netherlands: Battle tanks 300. Armoured combat vehicles 1430
Austria: Battle tanks 172. Armoured combat vehicles 728
Portugal: Battle tanks 187. Armoured combat vehicles 378
Finland: Battle tanks 268. Armoured combat vehicles 1176
Sweden: Battle tanks 280. Armoured combat vehicles 2244
Great Britain: Battle tanks 594. Armoured combat vehicles 5098
Czech Republic: Battle tanks 541. Armoured combat vehicles 1984
Estonia: Battle tanks 0. Armoured combat vehicles 24
Cyprus: Battle tanks 154. Armoured combat vehicles 476
Latvia: Battle tanks 3. Armoured combat vehicles 15
Lithuania: Battle tanks 0. Armoured combat vehicles 97
Hungary: Battle tanks 170. Armoured combat vehicles 1345
Malta: Battle tanks 0. Armoured combat vehicles - not listed
Poland: Battle tanks 947. Armoured combat vehicles 2766
Slovenia: Battle tanks 76. Armoured combat vehicles 98
Slovakia: Battle tanks 278. Armoured combat vehicles 1009

EU´s combined amount of battle tanks: 10937
EU´s combined amount of armoured combat vechicles: 35063

And the three EU candidate countries that may join EU some day

Turkey: Battle tanks 4205. Armoured combat vehicles 4293
Romania: Battle tanks 1272. Armoured combat vehicles 3086
Bulgaria: Battle tanks 1434. Armoured combat vehicles 1954

And just as a comparison:

China: Battle tanks: 8300 Armoured combat vehicles 4100
USA: Battle tanks: 7837. Armoured combat vehicles 25164
Russia: Battle tanks 21820. Armoured combat vehicles 29025

Where did u find all these numbers. According to my knowledge are the numbers for the Netherlands (tanks and armoured combat vehicles) a bit overrated. Don't know the exact numbers nowadays, but 300 tanks is more like in the cold war episode....

[mustamato]

Force projection. Anytime, anywhere.

Sailing a fleet in international waters close to the target is enough to smooth out diplomatic solutions to global problems. If diplomatic solutions fail, then there is the military option.




Leased freight ship are fine for carrying supplies, but they are not amphib assault ships.

Even so, you still need a large surface fleet to protect those troop transports and to deliver shore bombardment to prep the landing area for the amphibious assault.

When exactly and in which scenario would that be needed?

You ask why transport ships need escort?

http://pages.zdnet.com/vancell/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/stuka8x.jpg

You ask why transport ships need heavily armed ships for beach bombardment, and military landing craft to deliver the goods? Gosh, I can think of a few times when the folks we were fighting didn't want us to land...

http://userpages.umbc.edu/~khirsc1/images/d-day.jpg

No I didn´t ask why "transport ships needs escort", I asked why we need transport
ships in the first place, and I said that they could just as well be leased.

Honestly I think the times have changed since ww2. But since we are bringing
out the heavy artillery here I just say Fallschirmsjäger. Of course they can´t
occupy all too much by themself (which were learnt in example in Crete), but
they can set up a "beach head", which has been shown several times when
paratroopers have captured airfields (Rangers in Grenada, French Foreign Legion
in Congo etc etc), after which reinforcments can be flown/shipped in.

http://www.eagle19.freeserve.co.uk/eben1.gif
This famous photograph shows men of Assault Group Granite (Fallschirmjägers) sharing a
cigarette after the fighting where the fortress Eben Emael and the bridges over the Albert Canal were captured

http://www.wargamesdirectory.com/images/gallery/para.jpg
Fallschirmjager re-enactors

[Schwabo Elite]

The list, especially the data from the UN is woefully outdated. Germany doesn't have that number of tanks, not even with all the reserve units in long-term bunkering (some Leo I and early lots of Leo II).

by the way Germany is going to discard a huge percantage of its tank forces in favor of saving a lot of money. The EU will only slowly and only over the next 1 or 2 decades be able to have a reasonable force projection power. We still lack cooperation and sea/air transport, though air transport will be solved within a reasonable short time. IF/When the EU grows together more closely, the individual armies will cut their tank numbers as well, since multi-national units will become more favoured. Don't forget that alot of the listed tanks are older or incompatible with new standards. The Romanian and Bulgarian tanks are ajoke, only a small percanage is operational, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, the Baltic countries and Czech have only very few, if any at all, up to date tanks.

SE

[Adno_sk]

Here is my info:
Military budget of the EU countries (without Turkey, Bulgaria & Rumunia) :
169 billions $

Turkey - 10,8 billion $
Rumunia & Bulgaria - 1.295 billion $

But look at the USA and Canada, they have together 308,6 billion $ military budget (USA 300 bill.$ Canada 8 bill. $) !
And here is some other number about the strength of the USA tanks and fighter planes:
USA: 8023 tanks & 6004 fighter planes

According my informations (from our newspaper) EU has 2.3 mil. soldiers and USA 1.3 mil soldiers

Best regards from Slovakia!

[mack pl]

The list, especially the data from the UN is woefully outdated. Germany doesn't have that number of tanks, not even with all the reserve units in long-term bunkering (some Leo I and early lots of Leo II).

by the way Germany is going to discard a huge percantage of its tank forces in favor of saving a lot of money. The EU will only slowly and only over the next 1 or 2 decades be able to have a reasonable force projection power. We still lack cooperation and sea/air transport, though air transport will be solved within a reasonable short time. IF/When the EU grows together more closely, the individual armies will cut their tank numbers as well, since multi-national units will become more favoured. Don't forget that alot of the listed tanks are older or incompatible with new standards. The Romanian and Bulgarian tanks are ajoke, only a small percanage is operational, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary, the Baltic countries and Czech have only very few, if any at all, up to date tanks.

SEWell, if you think only german tanks are ok, thats mean only Poland in eastern Europe have some REAL tanks-128 Leo2 A4 ;)

[foxtrot023]

oh yeah look at spain was a dictatorship for ages and you joined the EU not long after. I say just you wait.

But we were a western country, meaning Christian, wrote the same alfabet, used the same calendar, looked similar, etc.

But I see your point and I am sure you see mine, let us leave it at this.

Best Regards

[cut]

oh yeah look at spain was a dictatorship for ages and you joined the EU not long after. I say just you wait.

But we were a western country, meaning Christian, wrote the same alfabet, used the same calendar, looked similar, etc.

But I see your point and I am sure you see mine, let us leave it at this.

Best Regards

The whole world uses the christian calendar now, religion shouldn't come into it we have protestants and catholics and orthodox in europe, turkey can join if they become western as I have said about a million times, spaniards look more like turks then they do swedes, appearance is nothing.

[Ichhabe]

oh yeah look at spain was a dictatorship for ages and you joined the EU not long after. I say just you wait.

But we were a western country, meaning Christian, wrote the same alfabet, used the same calendar, looked similar, etc.

But I see your point and I am sure you see mine, let us leave it at this.

Best Regards

The whole world uses the christian calendar now, religion shouldn't come into it we have protestants and catholics and orthodox in europe, turkey can join if they become western as I have said about a million times, spaniards look more like turks then they do swedes, appearance is nothing.

Thanks for the clarification cut. You see, I always thought spaniards was looking like,...eeeh,..spaniards.

And the Spanish women. Ai Ai AII!!! ;)

[cut]

oh yeah look at spain was a dictatorship for ages and you joined the EU not long after. I say just you wait.

But we were a western country, meaning Christian, wrote the same alfabet, used the same calendar, looked similar, etc.

But I see your point and I am sure you see mine, let us leave it at this.

Best Regards

The whole world uses the christian calendar now, religion shouldn't come into it we have protestants and catholics and orthodox in europe, turkey can join if they become western as I have said about a million times, spaniards look more like turks then they do swedes, appearance is nothing.

Thanks for the clarification cut. You see, I always thought spaniards was looking like,...eeeh,..spaniards.

And the Spanish women. Ai Ai AII!!! ;)

You're not wrong there's this spannish girl I know and she is sooo hot, shame I probably won't get to meet her again. :(

[wholagun]

I wouldn't expect anything much from the 10 new central European countries, we 10 got bigger problems then military....well maybe Poland can be exempted, but the other 9 I don't expect to see anything big as they are small as well so contribution won't be as big, but they can still modernize quite well and be part of larger force.

[perdurabo]

i wonder why eu would need force projection somwhere else than in europe and near there? we are quite peacefull and doctrine of eu countrys is much defensive prabably EU won't fight wars in let's say India or China or America(both south and north) maby in mediterenian sea region but thats all...

[foxtrot023]

The whole world uses the christian calendar now, religion shouldn't come into it we have protestants and catholics and orthodox in europe,

Guess what do they have in common....they are all CHRISTIANS.


, spaniards look more like turks then they do swedes, appearance is nothing.

That is a gross generalization, and shows you are not informed. Per example, I am 1.85 mts and blond, yet I am from Spain. Here is a source for you-


spain ethnic makeup: composite of Mediterranean and Nordic types
(source:http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sp.html#People)

This is getting pointless. Only time will tell.

[cut]

The whole world uses the christian calendar now, religion shouldn't come into it we have protestants and catholics and orthodox in europe,

Guess what do they have in common....they are all CHRISTIANS.
do you realise how much protestants hated catholics in this country for centuries?




, spaniards look more like turks then they do swedes, appearance is nothing.

That is a gross generalization, and shows you are not informed. Per example, I am 1.85 mts and blond, yet I am from Spain. Here is a source for you-

so? My point is looks are not a bar to joining the EU.




spain ethnic makeup: composite of Mediterranean and Nordic types
(source:http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sp.html#People)

This is getting pointless. Only time will tell.

Yes, I'm not saying that these countries will join, but I think there is no reason why they should not be allowed to ( if they meet the conditions obviously).

[perdurabo]

they will not join because they will never meet EU standards and also they are too much diffrent in culture and if they would join whole EU budget would colapse.
and there is also one big reason EU is called European Union not European +Asia or European+Africa union....

[wholagun]

lets keep the European Union "European", the min you let non Europeans join you will really go down a slippery slope and the whole thing will backfire in our faces and we'll have to start from scratch (after another big European war) yet again. Turkey, isn't in Europe, they have european related history but they are not in Europe. I'd prefer Turkey over Morraco in the EU. Its not that I got a problem with Kus Kus (I rather like it) but they are not European, the culture history and mentallity is different. Europe has a common history, common religion, simular arcitecture, values etc etc. Moracco doens't.

Secondly, 10 new Central/Baltic countries are joinging the EU. That will put a huge ass drain on the EU funding. How can Turkey, Romania, and Bulgaria all poorer countries then the current 10 joining. Turkey's richhest pay be rich, but their poorest are poorrest the poorest farmers even in Poland. :| I don't think that expansion should go ahead until we get the 10 new countries somewhat on thier own feet and reform the CAP system. now thats wishful thinking I now, but thats ideally what I wanna see.

Russia joing the EU i wouldn't have a problem cause they are after all European, but would they want too? Would they meet the standards? Same legal system? Would they want the loss of sovereignty? I doubt it.

[Fioraon]

Will a future union military be professional or drafted from a selected age group?

[wholagun]

Will a future union military be professional or drafted from a selected age group?

i'd put my money on professional as already European countries are mostly professional except for a few

[Marmot1]

Leased freight ship are fine for carrying supplies, but they are not amphib assault ships.

Even so, you still need a large surface fleet to protect those troop transports and to deliver shore bombardment to prep the landing area for the amphibious assault.
Well you can have transport and shore bombardment in one :-)
http://www.mw.mil.pl/Desant2.jpg
http://www.mw.mil.pl/Desant1.jpg
It can be clasified as LST, 9 MBT (or a lot more IFV) + infanty on each ship and we have 5 of them
Also it is capable to "prepare" beach before landing (see pic No2.)
and to self defence 4 ZSU-23 MR and 8 Striela 2M launchers
(BTW it is not some old crap -15 years old is the oldest one)
There is room for 135 Soldiers with equipment under the deck so basicaly Polish fleet is capable to deliver over 650 soliders supported with 45 MBT at once using only this ships and we have more landing ships...
http://private.psi.com.pl/pmw/lublin/wrobel.jpg
http://private.psi.com.pl/pmw/lublin/rampa.jpg

[-Max2-]

Countries like Morocco will NEVER join the EU. Its aberrant to see that some people want non-Europeans countries in an association of European countries. Its simply stupid... :cantbeli:

Morrocans have NOTHING in common with Europeans...


Russia joing the EU i wouldn't have a problem cause they are after all European, but would they want too? Would they meet the standards? Same legal system? Would they want the loss of sovereignty? I doubt it.

Its unlikely to happen. Both the Europeans and Russians dont want of Russia in the EU. Russia is big enough to be its own continent. However, a "privileged partnership" between EU and Russia is possible...

[Brzeczyszczykiewicz]

More proj.767 pics:

Strong Resolve 2002:
http://www.orppoznan.republika.pl/images/ok3.jpg

http://www.orppoznan.republika.pl/images/fotonor/ok3.jpg

http://www.orppoznan.republika.pl/images/fotonor/ok10.jpg

Blue Game:
http://www.orppoznan.republika.pl/images/fotob/f1.jpg

http://www.orppoznan.republika.pl/images/fotob/f2.jpg

http://www.orppoznan.republika.pl/images/fotob/f3.jpg

http://www.orppoznan.republika.pl/images/fotob/f4.jpg

http://www.orppoznan.republika.pl/images/fotob/f16.jpg

http://www.orppoznan.republika.pl/images/fotob/f18.jpg

http://www.orppoznan.republika.pl/images/fotob/f19.jpg[/list]

[wholagun]

European countries are ordering new AM400s i think thats what they are called, European version of the C17. Ships can be built, its not like Europe lacks the tech or the $$$ to do it. Its more a political then anything. Transport capabilities can easily be built.

To those people that say that Europe is weak and that it can't even transport its own troops - if you makes you guys sleep better at night thinking its a permanent problem go ahead and think that, but that doesn't change the fact that your still nieve and lack long term vision.

[esl]

Here is my info:
Military budget of the EU countries (without Turkey, Bulgaria & Rumunia) :
169 billions $

Turkey - 10,8 billion $
Rumunia & Bulgaria - 1.295 billion $

But look at the USA and Canada, they have together 308,6 billion $ military budget (USA 300 bill.$ Canada 8 bill. $) !
And here is some other number about the strength of the USA tanks and fighter planes:
USA: 8023 tanks & 6004 fighter planes

According my informations (from our newspaper) EU has 2.3 mil. soldiers and USA 1.3 mil soldiers

Best regards from Slovakia!


Interesting figures but I doubt Canada would allow its self to side with Amercia against Europe. More likely they would say thanks but no thanks.

When you calculate USA figures remember that 1/5 is wasted on nukes . Also the actual spending on arms is only 1/3 of the budget while the rest is wages . Are euro wages comparable to USA wages in US dollars?

[-Max2-]

About force projection, France has also the NTCD program of amphibious ships:


The BIP multi-purpose carriers from the DCN are a family of amphibious ships based on a common design. This program known in France as the NTCD (Nouveau Transport de Chalands de Débarquement/ New LPDs) has been launched in 1997 by the DCN Internationale. This carrier can accommodate aircraft/ helicopters such as the AV-8B Harrier II, JSF and NH-90 NFHs. Four kinds of ship have been studied : the BIP 19, the BIP 13, the BIP 10 and the BIP 8. The aircraft will be used as a support for marines while helicopters & LCACs (Landing Craft Air Cushioned) will ferry freight and troops.
Two ships will be built from 2002 by the DCN in cooperation with Les Chantiers de l'Atlantique, they will replace the Ouragan class LPD (Ouragan and Orage). The French secretary of defence Alain Richard confirmed the launch of the program during Euronaval' 98. In May 2000, the project has started, two ships the Mistral and the Tonnerre will be bought, and commissioned by 2004 and 2006 within the Naval Action Force based at Toulon.


http://homepage.eircom.net/~steven/images/bip1.jpg

[perdurabo]

but not military budget it counts because it can be incrised in time of crisis but whole GDP of country and it's population when almoust all europe will be in EU, and eu will be much closer more like one country than union then i'd say we have the moust powerfull country on that planet, much bigger population than russia or USA(only india or china would be bigger) much higher GDP than russia usa china or india.

[Marmot1]

Here is my info:
Military budget of the EU countries (without Turkey, Bulgaria & Rumunia) :
169 billions $

Turkey - 10,8 billion $
Rumunia & Bulgaria - 1.295 billion $

But look at the USA and Canada, they have together 308,6 billion $ military budget (USA 300 bill.$ Canada 8 bill. $) !
And here is some other number about the strength of the USA tanks and fighter planes:
USA: 8023 tanks & 6004 fighter planes

According my informations (from our newspaper) EU has 2.3 mil. soldiers and USA 1.3 mil soldiers

Best regards from Slovakia!


Interesting figures but I doubt Canada would allow its self to side with Amercia against Europe. More likely they would say thanks but no thanks.

When you calculate USA figures remember that 1/5 is wasted on nukes . Also the actual spending on arms is only 1/3 of the budget while the rest is wages . Are euro wages comparable to USA wages in US dollars?
Yep and remember that having troops abroad like US have in Europe ,Korea,Middle East cost much more than having them at home thus large part of US budget goes to pay for troops not fot equipment

[wholagun]

^^^^French

>>>>>Polish plan for logistics ship.

http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/8042/utl02.jpg

[perdurabo]

About force projection, France has also the NTCD program of amphibious ships:


http://homepage.eircom.net/~steven/images/bip1.jpg
also spain will build big amphibious ship and has on or two Galicia class dok ships netherland has one or two rotterdam clas ships britain has ocean dok ship and britain has 3small cariers and 2 or 3 new bigger cariers will be build france has CdG spain has 1 small and also italy has one small carier and one helo carier, poland will build atleast 1-2 logistics ships that can acomodate around 4helos or one brigade of tanks in each... combined armory of EU is veery big and powerfull and mainly new stuff only very few is older than 20yrs and mainly in countrys like Poland witch are quite fast modernising their army...

[-Max2-]

Belgium also planned to buy a NTCD amphibious ship (in cooperation with Luxemburg) but those stupid socialists cancelled the order... :bash:

[perdurabo]

Belgium also planned to buy a NTCD amphibious ship (in cooperation with Luxemburg) but those stupid socialists cancelled the order... :bash:
yep almoust all EU gov are socialists we should change them to more liberal-conservatist :>

[mmackem]

The UK is building 4 possibly 5 17,000ton Rotterdam class LPD's, as well as 2 20,000ton Albion class LPD's.
Britain already has a 20,000ton helicopter carrier, and 3 20,000ton light carriers which can operate as amphibious assualt ships.
Plus the CVF project for 2 60,000ton carriers.

4 X Enforcer(Rotterdam) (17,000t)
http://www.scheldeshipbuilding.com/pics/scheld1.jpg

HMS Ark Royal (20,000t)
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/rn/data/gallery/full/1081337893f.jpg
HMS Invincible (20,000t)
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/rn/data/gallery/full/988974816f.jpg
HMS Illustrious & HMS Ocean (Both 20,000t)
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/rn/data/gallery/big/1016459030b.jpg

HMS Albion (21,000t)
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/rn/data/gallery/full/1079613586f.jpg
HMS Bulwark (21,000t)
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/rn/data/gallery/full/1059053281f.jpg

CVF-01 HMS Queen Elizabeth (60,000t)
CVF-02 HMS Prince of Wales (60,000t)
http://frn.beedall.com/cvfimagesbig/cvf-cca1.jpg

[Korth]

Why do those British ships of war have the red circle painted on the side?

It makes me think of the Japanese flag.

[foxtrot023]

And this is Spain´s new LHD:

http://www.mde.es/mde/infoes/armamento/images/buque.JPG

27,500 Tn displacement and capability for 900 combat troops. Together with the 2 Rotterdam LPD ships (actually, The Rotterdam and Galicia class was a joint development between Spain and Holland).

Together with a full brigade of Inf. de Marina (Marines for those who aren´t spanish speakers), it gives Spain good amphibious capabilities.

Regards

[foxtrot023]

And this is Spain´s new LHD:

http://www.mde.es/mde/infoes/armamento/images/buque.JPG

27,500 Tn displacement and capability for 900 combat troops. Together with the 2 Rotterdam LPD ships (actually, The Rotterdam and Galicia class was a joint development between Spain and Holland).

Together with a full brigade of Inf. de Marina (Marines for those who aren´t spanish speakers), it gives Spain good amphibious capabilities.

Regards

[foxtrot023]

sorry for the repeat