Why Iraq and Afghanistan for the US differ...

[Rebel 7]

Some people wonder why the situation in Afghanistan in Iraq differ so much. Why in one nation (Afghanistan), there are no uprisings, the US are supported by the population, the US have many allies, they are seen as security enforcers, and are not considered enemies and in another nation (Iraq) the opposite is true to an extent. Afghanistan is a whole different country (aside the geographic location). Afghanistan was destroyed by almost 25 years of war (10 years with the Soviets) and almost 15 years fighting Pakistani proxy militias (ie. Gulbudeen, Taliban, etc.) Throughout those 25 years, the Afghans realized the value of peace, the brutality of war, and how harsh the reality is of having a so-called Muslim nation (Pakistan) be responsible for the utter destruction of Kabul, of the ancient Buddah statues, and other historic landmarks in Kabul. The Afghans developed a great deal of hatred for Arabs and Pakistanis who were seen as the main enemies in the war against the Taliban which the Northern Alliance was spearheading long before 9-11. The Taliban was composed of Pakistanis (including army personnel), Arabs, Chechens, Chinese, Indonesians, Malaysians, Sudanese, Morrocans, and a few other African nations. After Sept. 11, the Americans too saw what the Afghans had experienced for 15 years....that terrorists and lunatics raised in madrassas in Pakistan were a common enemy and could wreak havoc if not killed or contained. Thus, the US began to take serious what the NA commander Ahmad Shah Massoud had said months and years before Sept. 11...that if these terrorists are not contained and Pakistan not brought under control, that they will not only bring death and destruction in Afghanistan, but in the US and the rest of the West as well. Afghans with the US worked to break the front lines of the Taliban which resulted in the retreat of the Taliban from Kabul in a matter of hours. Today, the Afghans realize that without US support, the Taliban may not have been defeated as quickly since the Taliban had the backing of Saudi millionaires and the Pakistani army and government. While I was in Afghanistan, I saw and developed a great deal of respect for both US and Nato soldiers who would stand in the heat of the sun to provide security, would joke with the locals and help those in need of medicine and aid. The locals would joke and chat with the US soldiers and I was happy to see that my Afghans were thankful for the American involvement in helping Afghanistan reach peace and establish a stable government. Had they not, Pakistan would have continued its proxy war in Afghanistan which would have meant further death and destruction for the Afghans. There are no uprisings in Afghanistan for the simple fact that almost 6 years of brutality by the Taliban on the Afghans and Sept. 11 has brought both Afghans and Americans together in realizing a common enemy.

Iraq however is a whole different story. Arabic people are very nationalistic and feel invaded if a foreign country attempts to bring about some form of stability using military means. Ever since the war between Israel and Palestine, Arabs have continued to develop a great deal of hatred for Americans, seeing them as the main ally of Israel who they see as an enemy to the Arab world. Many Arab families have raised their children with the view that America is the "Great Satan" and that they are only out there to kill, hence the reason for the uprisings even though Saddam was worse and they should at least be thankful that now they can speak out without having their tongues cut off. The Iraqi people seem to either have temporarily forgotten how brutal the Saddam regime was or their arrogance and nationalism exceeds their common sense. I am amazed when I watch video clips of Japanese hostages and even a Canadian Arab who has been taken hostage. These people don't care for their own kind, let alone foreigners. It seems that years of living under a savage regime has made the population immune to the meaning of humanity. It truly sickens me when I see so many Iraqis running in the streets throwing rocks at US soldiers who ousted a man (Saddam) that would have skinned all these Iraqi protestors alive had they been doing the same protests against him. Ironic that the same ignorant mullahs whom the US gave the freedom to speak (which they couldn't under the Saddam regime) are now using that freedom to speak against the US. I would not have so much against the Iraqis but for the lack of attempts made by the population in showing that they do support the US involvement in bringinga stable government in Iraq. I mean lets be serious, if the US left Iraq today, the people of Iraq would slaughter one another for power of the government. It is extremely sad that the a significant portion of the Iraqi population don't realize this fact and think that the US leaving Iraq is a good thing.

Had I seen the situation in Iraq repeated in Afghanistan where Afghans were throwing rocks at US and NATO soldiers, and chanting for the death of US and NATO soldiers, I too would have been disgusted by my Afghans, since as an Afghan I realize how signifcant the destruction of the Taliban and Al Qaida played in bringing peace in Afghanistan and weakened the terrorist threat against the US and the rest of the West.

Although there are more reasons for why Iraq and Afghanistan have had different results for the US.....the above are some of those reasons.....

[Resevoir Hogs]

Why in one nation (Afghanistan), there are no uprisings, the US are supported by the population

http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=World&cat=Afghanistan

Not that I'm saying there isn't a difference in the level of insurgents and uprisings in Iraq and Afghanistan. But what you said about no uprisings in Afghanistan is just false.

In Iraq
From what I can tell this uprising is less of a majority rebellion by the entire population and more of a factional force working with another factional force to gain power for themselves. This guy Sadr is just as bad as Saddam was. And a religious Shi'ite ruled state would be just as oppressive as the socialist Sunni run state of the last few decades.

[Rebel 7]

Why in one nation (Afghanistan), there are no uprisings, the US are supported by the population

http://story.news.yahoo.com/fc?cid=34&tmpl=fc&in=World&cat=Afghanistan

Not that I'm saying there isn't a difference in the level of insurgents and uprisings in Iraq and Afghanistan. But what you said about no uprisings in Afghanistan is just false.

In Iraq
From what I can tell this uprising is less of a majority rebellion by the entire population and more of a factional force working with another factional force to gain power for themselves. This guy Sadr is just as bad as Saddam was. And a religious Shi'ite ruled state would be just as oppressive as the socialist Sunni run state of the last few decades.


Not that I'm saying there isn't a difference in the level of insurgents and uprisings in Iraq and Afghanistan. But what you said about no uprisings in Afghanistan is just false.


It isn't false. What the Yahoo news report claims is that Rashid Dostum was fighting another commander for control of a province NOT the US soldiers. This isn't the type of uprising I was talking about in my post. You may see local Afghan commanders fighting one another for control of certain areas (ie. Ishmael Khan in Herat a few weeks ago, etc.)...but this is less common now since the Afghan government is beginning to develop a strong army. As well, you overlooked this part of the article: "Ludin said Dostum had contacted Kabul on Thursday and insisted he was not trying to challenge Karzai's authority and that he had not sent fighters into Faryab." There seems to be contradicting reports about what Dostum is doing or saying thus your news report isn't even reliable enough to make a sound conclusion. However, with that said, the type of uprisings I am talking about (ie against the US soldiers and against the American involvement in Afghanistan) is not happening in Afghanistan to even 10% of the extent that it is happening in Iraq.


From what I can tell this uprising is less of a majority rebellion by the entire population and more of a factional force working with another factional force to gain power for themselves.

I agree....but the extent of the rebellion is strong and locals are taking part in it......this isn't about soldiers of one group fighting the US.....it involves a great deal of locals too......

[Kitsune]

Rebel7,
You seem not to relize, that the Pakistani are close allies of the US and that the installment of the Taliban has been a joint Pakistani/US effort.
You may of course believe what you want, but the sad truth is, that the Americans are by no means popular in Afghanistan. Of course theire may be those who like them, but they are not a majority.
Many Afghanis want the Americans to leave, thats a fact. And the same goes for the other foreigners.

I know it from a friend of mine, who was in Afghanistan. The Germans have been very popular at first, but this popularity is dwindling. They are seen more and more as the helpers of the Americans (who are actually quite unpopular) and of the quite despised Karsai regime (which is actually quite powerless). Even in Kabul there are nearly no pictures of Karsai (but lots of pictures of Massoud, who is revered by the Afghanis).

At present it does not look good. The "nation building" effort is more of a PR stunt, Karsai will not outlast the Bush government by long, so he has between one and 5 years, depending who wins the US elections.
The efforts of ISAF are mostly to help the simple people, and while this help is well done and appreciated, I fear it will not last.
Warlords and tribal leaders rule Afghanistan, as they always have. And sadly, blood will be spilled again in your country.

[Rebel 7]

Rebel7,
You seem not to relize, that the Pakistani are close allies of the US and that the installment of the Taliban has been a joint Pakistani/US effort.
You may of course believe what you want, but the sad truth is, that the Americans are by no means popular in Afghanistan. Of course theire may be those who like them, but they are not a majority.
Many Afghanis want the Americans to leave, thats a fact. And the same goes for the other foreigners.

I know it from a friend of mine, who was in Afghanistan. The Germans have been very popular at first, but this popularity is dwindling. They are seen more and more as the helpers of the Americans (who are actually quite unpopular) and of the quite despised Karsai regime (which is actually quite powerless). Even in Kabul there are nearly no pictures of Karsai (but lots of pictures of Massoud, who is revered by the Afghanis).

At present it does not look good. The "nation building" effort is more of a PR stunt, Karsai will not outlast the Bush government by long, so he has between one and 5 years, depending who wins the US elections.
The efforts of ISAF are mostly to help the simple people, and while this help is well done and appreciated, I fear it will not last.
Warlords and tribal leaders rule Afghanistan, as they always have. And sadly, blood will be spilled again in your country.


You seem not to relize, that the Pakistani are close allies of the US and that the installment of the Taliban has been a joint Pakistani/US effort.

<smile> I am more aware of that than you might think....


You may of course believe what you want, but the sad truth is, that the Americans are by no means popular in Afghanistan. Of course theire may be those who like them, but they are not a majority.
Many Afghanis want the Americans to leave, thats a fact. And the same goes for the other foreigners.

Have you been to Afghanistan? Before you make assumptions based on what the media tells you, do your own investigation...you might be surprised by what you find. The fact of the matter is that the media destorts things to a HIGH degree.... Before going to Afghansitan, I thought I would be visiting a country with very little infrastructure intact after 25 years of war, with very little development since that is how the media depicts it....I was astonished to find booming businesses, crowded markets, a capital that had more homes and buildings being develop a day than I had ever seen in my life. Let me inform you why the the majority of Afghans LIVING in Afghanistan DON'T want the Americans to leave.
1) If the Americans left, the commanders may end up fighting one another for control thus destablizing the central government.
2) If the US isn't there as a watchdog providing security, the Pakistani government will revive the Taliban and send them back into Afghanistan to fight its proxy war and help create a satellite nation out of Afghanistan in case war breaks out between India and Pakistan (this is a fact many Afghans are aware of).
3) Without US involvement, the people realize that Afghanistan will become a forgotten nation like it was after the Soviet withdrawal which they DO NOT want.

You may have spoken to a few Afghans here in the West but here is something you might not be aware of. Afghans in the West who have only faded memories of Afghanistan when they were children and left during the 80's and 90's are not realistic about the situation there. I went there and got a personal look at the situation there and nationalism breds stupidity if we let it take over our better judgement. Of course I am Afghan and prefer that MY OWN AFGHANS run the country and provide security...but with the crisis the country has faced for 25 years, that is NOT possible and a foreign super-power is needed to provide temporary security until the government is stable enough and a strong 100,000+ army is formed...till then to hell with nationalism and self-pride....I prefer a good future for my nation even if it requires foreign intervention rather than have my nation destroyed by my own people or other so-called Muslim countries (ie. Pakistan).....


I know it from a friend of mine, who was in Afghanistan. The Germans have been very popular at first, but this popularity is dwindling. They are seen more and more as the helpers of the Americans (who are actually quite unpopular) and of the quite despised Karsai regime (which is actually quite powerless). Even in Kabul there are nearly no pictures of Karsai (but lots of pictures of Massoud, who is revered by the Afghanis).

Massoud is well respected because while Karzai was in Pakistan, Massoud was in the mountains of Panjshir defending the country from the Taliban and Al Qaida. He deserves to be revered more than Karzai. However, with that said, Massoud was martyred and no longer alive to hold claim to a government position, thus Karzai has no one popular enough to oppose him. Karzai is a Pashtun who is not a racist that will throw aside the other ethnic groups (ie Tajik, Hazara, Uzbek, etc.) and only allow his ethnic group to doimate government positions and affairs. It is true that Karzai is slowly losing support but it is up to him to show the people that he can be trusted as a good and honest leader. I am a supporter of Karzai myself while I do respect Massoud for his struggle.
The pictures are only symbolic and show respect for a martyr......

[Rebel 7]

Rebel7,
You seem not to relize, that the Pakistani are close allies of the US and that the installment of the Taliban has been a joint Pakistani/US effort.
You may of course believe what you want, but the sad truth is, that the Americans are by no means popular in Afghanistan. Of course theire may be those who like them, but they are not a majority.
Many Afghanis want the Americans to leave, thats a fact. And the same goes for the other foreigners.

I know it from a friend of mine, who was in Afghanistan. The Germans have been very popular at first, but this popularity is dwindling. They are seen more and more as the helpers of the Americans (who are actually quite unpopular) and of the quite despised Karsai regime (which is actually quite powerless). Even in Kabul there are nearly no pictures of Karsai (but lots of pictures of Massoud, who is revered by the Afghanis).

At present it does not look good. The "nation building" effort is more of a PR stunt, Karsai will not outlast the Bush government by long, so he has between one and 5 years, depending who wins the US elections.
The efforts of ISAF are mostly to help the simple people, and while this help is well done and appreciated, I fear it will not last.
Warlords and tribal leaders rule Afghanistan, as they always have. And sadly, blood will be spilled again in your country.


Warlords and tribal leaders rule Afghanistan, as they always have. And sadly, blood will be spilled again in your country.

Bro, I strongly hope and pray that this doesn't happen.

[ibstolidude]

Rebel7,
You seem not to relize, that the Pakistani are close allies of the US and that the installment of the Taliban has been a joint Pakistani/US effort.
You may of course believe what you want, but the sad truth is, that the Americans are by no means popular in Afghanistan. Really!! having spent a year there I would beg to differ the MAJORITY of the people are fine with the US presence you forget that pashtuns in the east and southern border are not the entire country. Of course theire may be those who like them, but they are not a majority.
Many Afghanis want the Americans to leave, thats a fact. And the same goes for the other foreigners.

I know it from a friend of mine, who was in Afghanistan. I know it from myself ask around here to the other A-stan vets on the board The Germans have been very popular at first, but this popularity is dwindling. They are seen more and more as the helpers of the Americans (who are actually quite unpopular) and of the quite despised Karsai regime (which is actually quite powerless) the majority of the people (not warlord's soldeirs) want a STRONGER central government, the weapons to be collected and warlords removed, however they agree the central government is without power AND THAT IS THEIR complaint. Even in Kabul there are nearly no pictures of Karsai (but lots of pictures of Massoud, who is revered by the Afghanis).
- I will agree that MUCH MUCH more effort needs to be placed on real efforts to rebuildand assist the government, especially in the form of money.

This issue of the US support for the Talibs has been addressed...the Taliban did not even exist druing the US assistance.

Amazingly enough the bulk of the warlords that support the US actions in Afghanistan are drawn from those who we supported during the Soviet invasion... The bulk of the Al Qaeda are insurgents that made their appearance many years after the Soviet occupation/attempt. Few Al Qaeda are Afghan...actually the bulk of the Talibs were either not afghan or they were young refugees that fled to Pakistan during the Soviet occupation/war...there they were "students" of several madrassa's and trained/support by the Pakistani Intel Service...the real problem was not the US involvement but the US abondonment setting the stage for the warlord rulling system that remains today...that warlord ruling system allowed the rise of the Taliban with the support of the PIS.

Considering the support the US had in Afghanistan prior to the US invasion..considering that student exchanges, US schools, emabssy, small US community all were located in Kabul prior to the soviet invasion...it was probably very prudent to lend US support. Continued support may have prevented the insurgents from locating in Afghanistan.


The name of the taliban alone is cause enough for understanding from where the "movement" came. The name means - students - named for the groups/movement of students/ refugees from the afghan wars living in Pakistan. They first became a force in Afghan politics in 1994, when the country was in the throes of a civil war between north and south. Many Afghans welcomed a new movement that seemed honest, devout, and eager to impose order, an end to the decades of war - still to day the most common reason many of the "simple people" of afghanistan have forsaken the old government - they seek a return to a degree of normalacy.

It is a common misconception that is often used to critise the US policies, when in fact the US did little to directly support the Taliban's goals..it is wonderful to think that the monstrous apetite of the US's involvment/meddling on other countries came back to bite them, but the reality does not support it in THIS case...although many faliures to curtail the regime or to take steps to prevent the events and failures of US policies in Afghanistan were not taken/failed and warrant great critisism, many people prefer to make up their cases and instead claim the US created the Taliban.

Too many people try and claim "you don't know history if you don't agree with me." The reality is much different.

I posted the following previously about the Taiban's rise to power:
"It was impossible for the US to support the Taliban during the 80's as the Taliban rose to power in Kabul in 1996.
Anticipating the cop-out of" the US supported those that became the Taliban" -The majority of the leaders and upper ranks of the Taliban was comprised of Afghans who originally grew up in refugee camps in Pakistan and were taught this fiery brand of fundamentalist Islam in Madrases. -hence the name "Talib" - "student"
If any US situation created, which aided in the creation of the Taliban, it would be the US withdrawal of support from Afghanistan when at the time of percieved Soviet failure.. as the soviets withdrew (89) (and strong US aid subsided) the soviet placed government (Nagil Bila) continued until overthrown in 1992.. the country fell back into a "warlord" system that in essence was a series of fiefdom's lacking a central government of power...these faction began fighting for the central government control... it was a digression of a hundred years, the economy was shot, the infastructure was destroyed ... the warlords fell into seeking vegencance upon each other and claiming/spreading their own area's of influence. Ethnic division bred into this internal wafare.

Fighting subsequently continued among the various mujahidin factions, giving rise to a state of warlordism that was an opportunity the Taliban took. The Taliban was comprosed of the Pashtun ethnic group which comprised 45% of the population - the next closest group the Tajiks 24%. Backed by foreign sponsors ( arab money and the Pakistani intelligence services that helped train them), the Taliban developed as a political force and eventually seized power. The Taliban were able to capture most of the country, approx 90% at it's peak. They took Kabul in 1996 - gained the seat of power and began a rule impossing Sharia—Muslim law—.

There was certainly a failure of US policy during the end of the Soviet occupation, but lets call apples, apples and oranges, oranges...the US did not back the Taliban movement. The arguement could be made that our efforts to arm the Mujahedin throught the use of the Pakistani Intelligence service as a"proxy", resulted in the growth of the PIS which went on to aid the Taliban, but to claim the US supported the Taliban is just plain false.

The entire mess of a country results from the arbitrary design of borders without regard to ethnic groups during the end of the British occupation in 1919."

If you would like to argue that the US weapons that were given tot hte Mujihadeen during the 80's were used against the US...not quite. Certainly some of the weapons survuved, the majority of weapons used against the US forces were soveit siezed, Iranian made, Pakistani, Chinese ordandance, or improvised... there has yet to be a case of coalition aircraft being hit with US stinger missles/ utilizing carbon copy batteries. In case you have not been to afghanistan see the UserSubmitted section for what an Afghan ammo dump looks like - little of what we left lasted the 10+ years until our return.

The Taliban which was not supported by UBL until after their existance and struggle to power began; sought funding from Saudi Arabi and Pakistan....eventually UBL who's beliefs in strict muslim law mimiced the taliban's rhetoric..began a realationship with the Taliban..to include offering monetary support, some leadership, and described by many as an iconic figure. With his involvement and "leadership" (yes Mullah Omar was the leader) also began to trickle in to the Taliban ideology the beliefs the UBL holds towards the west. Other than that foriegn aid the Taliban chief iternal forms of support were from drug trade and smuggling taxations.

Certainly the US has a slew of policies that need revision and critique, but to make false claims and then critique others for their lack of history knowledge does not help... **If we wish to lambast the US on the issue then perhaps the reoccuring "fingerprint" of Saudi Arabia should be discussed and the lack of US concern of this continued appearance


According to Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA), who spent time with Afghani freedom fighters, as early as 1988 "bin Laden was so crazy that he wanted to kill Americans as much as he wanted to kill Russians."
More from the Senator and out right critic of current/former US policies in Afghanistan/war on terror

If a CIA officer tried to give money to bin Laden, he probably would not have lived through the experience. The arch-terrorist was known for his violent anti-Americanism. Dana Rohrabacher, now a Republican congressman from California, told me about a trip he took with the mujahideen in 1987. On that trek, his guide told him not to speak English for the next few hours because they were passing by bin Laden’s camp. “If he hears an American, he will kill you.”

"“Personally neither I nor my brothers saw any evidence of American help,” bin Laden told British journalist Robert Fisk in 1993. In 1996, Mr. Fisk interviewed bin Laden again. The arch-terrorist was equally adamant: “We were never, at any time, friends of the Americans. We knew that the Americans supported the Jews in Palestine and that they are our enemies.”"

From Victor Hansons' research:
"In the course of researching my book on Bill Clinton and bin Laden, I interviewed Bill Peikney, who was CIA station chief in Islamabad from 1984 to 1986, and Milt Bearden, who was CIA station chief from 1986 to 1989. These two men oversaw the disbursement for all American funds to the anti-Soviet resistance. Both flatly denied that any CIA funds ever went to bin Laden. They felt so strongly about this point that they agreed to go on the record, an unusual move by normally reticent intelligence officers. Mr. Peikney added in an e-mail to me: “I don’t even recall UBL [bin Laden] coming across my screen when I was there.”"

http://www.robert-fisk.com/usama_bin_ladin_in_sudan1996.htm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,98115,00.html

[786mine]

2) If the US isn't there as a watchdog providing security, the Pakistani government will revive the Taliban and send them back into Afghanistan to fight its proxy war and help create a satellite nation out of Afghanistan in case war breaks out between India and Pakistan (this is a fact many Afghans are aware of).


Rebel 7, I am not sure what you are trying to convey. Most of your replies have been how Pakistan and the U.S. have destroyed Afghanistan, etc. Well, if it were not for the actions of Pakistan and U.S. the Russians would have defeated the Afghanis soon.

Why would the Pakistani government create a satellite nation on its east border and fight a war on its western border with almost a million troops? That does not make sense to me. I am also not sure where you are getting your facts.

[2RHPZ]

EDIT

[ibstolidude]

Rebel7,
You seem not to relize, that the Pakistani are close allies of the US and that the installment of the Taliban has been a joint Pakistani/US effort. Double horsehit - you do not know your history - at best you could argue that material support left over from the Muj went to the Talibs (that did not exist during the time of US assitance)
You may of course believe what you want, but the sad truth is, that the Americans are by no means popular in Afghanistan. Horse**** - certainly you know more than I - I was only there for 10 months or so Of course theire may be those who like them, but they are not a majority.
Many Afghanis want the Americans to leave, thats a fact. And the same goes for the other foreigners. And many want them to stay
I know it from a friend of mine, who was in Afghanistan. The Germans have been very popular at first, but this popularity is dwindling. They are seen more and more as the helpers of the Americans (who are actually quite unpopular) Horse**** - it is like everywhere else in the world it depends are where, when and who. I can assure you were very welcome by the "simple" people in most of the locations, even those that were the least permissive and of the quite despised Karsai regime (which is actually quite powerless). Even in Kabul there are nearly no pictures of Karsai (but lots of pictures of Massoud, who is revered by the Afghanis).