Flag too true blue for American tastes

[digrar]

This isn't on.

http://www.couriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,9207551%255E953,00.html




Flag too true blue for American tastes
Anna **** in New York
07apr04
FOR more than 40 years, Australian expat Louise Hogberg has proudly flown the Australian flag from a succession of homes in Italy, California and on the US east coast.

But in the Florida community of Windermere, the 65-year-old yoga teacher and former Sydneysider faces a legal battle to keep it flying.

In what Mrs Hogberg describes as a "very, very bizarre" form of discrimination, she has been refused permission to display the Australian flag at her house in Windermere, a Citrus County estate north of Tampa.

Last year – two years after Mrs Hogberg and her husband Clarence, 82, moved in – the Windermere Garden Villas Home Owners Association board passed a community bylaw banning any flag apart from the Stars and Stripes from being flown without its express permission.

The Hogbergs applied to keep their Australian flag and were refused, but a request from their neighbours, retired US Lieutenant Colonel **** Jones and his wife, to fly the US Marine Corps flag, was granted immediately.

An announcement published in the Windermere community newsletter last month stated the Jones's request was authorised "with great appreciation for their years of military service" and went on to add "we are all honoured to have the Jones as our neighbours".

In a letter of appeal to be considered today by the Windermere board, Mrs Hogberg writes her husband served as a US Navy pilot in World War II and her first husband, Dr Donald Gibson, was a US Navy flight surgeon.

Seven of Mrs Hogberg's uncles fought alongside US troops in the Pacific during World War II and she writes, "I believe I should point out, in case you are unaware of the facts, that Australia was a staunch ally of the USA in WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and the Gulf Wars".

Mrs Hogberg writes "this is the first time in my life that I have felt discriminated against because of my Australian race/heritage/origin. Surely the Australian flag cannot be offensive to anyone for any reason in the USA."

Mrs Hogberg continues to fly the flag outside her house in defiance of a March 6 order from the board and the threat of legal action.

[Salty Dog]

she should just kill her neighbors.

[Maine Finn]

Even though that's a community bylaw, wouldn't it be subject to court review? It seems a little suppressive to me.

[Romulus]

Anna ****
rofl

This happens all the time in those Florida planned communities. Just last year a man was ordered by his community in Florida to remove the stars and stripes!!!! It was a big stink over here for about a week. But, if you move into these places and sign a contract saying you will not display any flags or certain lawn decorations you have to comply. Gay as it is, its the rules. Personally I got nothing against a Aussie flag flying nor a German, or UK one. It's a free country.


she should just kill her neighbors.

That would work too ;) .

[gaz]

I'm no expert on American legal matters but surely she has the right to fly the flag due to the First Amendment?

[Romulus]

Thats true. But if she signed an agreement stating that she can not fly a flag then she is bound to that contract. Planned Florida communities are funny like that. They make all these rules so people don't go painting their house red polka dots or installing a basketball court in the front yard. They want to keep things uniform. I think it is a sham too, but thats the price you pay when you decide to live in a planned community. Hence the reason I would never live in a subdivision or gated community, I don't like people telling me what and what not to do to my own house.

[gaz]

Good point, I hadn't considered the fact she may have signed a contract stating she'd adhere to the bylaws. Thanks.

[Ballistic]

Pathetic. Stupid rules made by stupid people. You would think that after all Australia has done for the US and vice versa our citizens or ex Pats living in America could enjoy the same freedoms Americans share and would be given the right the fly the flag of our country, not only for patriotism but for friendship and the strength of our alliance with the US on their own property. I would vertainly have no problem with a neighbour (if American) flying an American flag in their yard. Would'nt trouble me in the slightest.

Old people piss me off sometimes.

[Marmot1]

Wait a minute but AFAIK you cannot exclude your constitutional rights by contract, it's like signing with someone contract that he can kill you if he wish so.

Anyway it's shows how US is "Land of Freedom" :roll:

[Resevoir Hogs]

Well I'm not sure agreeing to not paint your house or display lawn ordements is excluding your constitutional rights. I do know the people in charge of that community have gone too far in this case. I'm sure if an American wanted to display the flag in Australia there wouldn't be ghey measures like this taken.

[hank]

Lot of misinformation here.

First, you cannot by contract agree to give up constitutional rights. Whoever said that is right.

Second, there is the possibility of court review here, but somebody has to sue. American courts do not get involved until there is a lawsuit. Our little Australian patriot would have to sue to get the "right" to fly her flag.

Third, whether or not there is a contract involved here, this is at least a PUD (Planned Uraban Development) and at worst a Condiminium (it says Homeowners Assocation and both Condos and PUDs have these). Either way, there is a provision that ties the deed to a document that restricts property owners right to do certain things in return for certain things. Like i.e. I'll have a tile roof and no flags in return for lawn maintenance and uniformity of roofs to keep property values up. Courts have unanimously upheld these types of arrangements.

Fourth, this type of restriction, one where you say "you can't say X here and now" are called "time, manner, place" restrictions. They are given the most leeway. The thinking is - we aren't saying she can't express her love for Australia, just not here and now. The US SC has said on numerous occasions that speech that is protected and thus not "bannable" can nonetheless be limited in time and place. The leading case deals with the protesting of a particular sheriff in FL. The speech was highly political and the sheriff said to protestors "you can do this but only here and not here". OK by the US SC.

Fifth, this is even arguable that this is political speech. Its just a flag and she is doing nothing else even remotely related to expressing political beliefs. Even then the "time-place" problem would probably allow the homeowner's association to ban it, but this is sketchy.

Lastly - this type of organization, a HOA, gets lots of leeway as long as they don't mess with race and the availability of housing. This lady should move if she does not like it. I doubt very seriously that she would even get past the motion to dismiss stage if she sued, meaning her suit would get dismissed even before trial. Not a very sympathetic plaintiff and not a very convincing rights infringement argument.

Feel free to ask more questions about this.

hank

[Merik]

Sounds like Hank is a lawyer or close to one lol. Thanks for the info Hank. p-)

[memphiz]

she should just kill her neighbors.
i agree :D i should hang my brothers huge USSR flag outside my window, and piss off my neighbours

[TriggerPuller]

Anna ****
rofl

This happens all the time in those Florida planned communities. Just last year a man was ordered by his community in Florida to remove the stars and stripes!!!! It was a big stink over here for about a week. But, if you move into these places and sign a contract saying you will not display any flags or certain lawn decorations you have to comply. Gay as it is, its the rules. Personally I got nothing against a Aussie flag flying nor a German, or UK one. It's a free country.


she should just kill her neighbors.

That would work too ;) .Yeah I remember that story pretty sad. This is not descrimination or anything like that it is just the fookin stupid rules of an anal homeowners Assoc.

TP

[Mark Sman]

Deed restriction is for mummble mummble mummbles.

Yeah, this has happened before down here in Florida, and elsewhere. Gotta watch what you sign.

My neighborhood has no restrictions beyond city code. As in "No you can't have a 60-foot-tall trebuchet as a lawn ornament." Or so says the guy from code enforcement.

You can fly a CCCP flag if you so choose.

A real ball bustin' buddy of mine used to fly this flag. When people asked he'd tell them it was Bonnie Blue, which it is.
http://www.lizmichael.com/bonniebl.jpg
Nobody would get it, which probably was for the beast.

[American Patriot]

Sure these home owners associations can be a little authoritarian but OUR country is still better than YOURS. :backhand:

[UkrainianAmerican]

Yeah, we got no beef with Aussies, just a homeowners association full of Senile Old people. Can't blame them.

[mocking_loudly_died]

I've never been much for flagging waving people, it's what’s in your heart that matters - I don't feel the need to go to other nations and shove any foreign patriotism down their throats. I say push the old bag down some stairs and tell her to stop wasting peoples time on non-issues.

[memphiz]

:D
http://www.kameda-lab.org/private/flags/img/canada.jpg

[UkrainianAmerican]

I've never been much for flagging waving people, it's what’s in your heart that matters - I don't feel the need to go to other nations and shove any foreign patriotism down their throats. I say push the old bag down some stairs and tell her to stop wasting peoples time on non-issues.
Its not that shes a flag-waiver. Its the fact that she herself signed a contract which implied that she HERSELF waived the right to display a flag of her choice. If she didnt agree with it, then dont live in that particular community, and then sue.

[to free the oppressed]

http://www.lizmichael.com/bonniebl.jpg
Looks like the Somilan flag.

[Yard Ape]

not exactly though: http://www.lizmichael.com/aboutbbf.htm

More like this one: http://www.lizmichael.com/cbf.gif

[Mark Sman]

If someone flew an Aussie flag in my neighborhood, my first instinct would be to find out how much beer they had in their fridge.

Yeah, my buddy with the Bonnie Blue used to get a helluva kick out of flying it in a predominantly black neighborhood. Its a funny thing about symbols. If he had flown the stars and bars, there would have been hell to pay, but noone ever said anything about his flag.