I'm a stealth fighter pilot:)

[SerbPVO]

Hehehe...funny pic of the day;)

Welcome to Serbia!

http://www.beotel.yu/~fotogram/slike/nevidljivi_4m.jpg

An F-117 ejection seat in some field near town of Budjanovac.

[Lysander]

Almost looks like a scene from "Behind Enemy Lines". :) ;)

[intelligenzija]

is it true that that F-117 is now in russia?

[obd]

Well pieces of it might be...but we bombed the wreckage that the Serbian mogrols couldnt carry off real real fast......They did get some pieces though. Saw them in a Serb museum. Understandably, the Serbs are real proud of being the only nation to shoot down an Americna f-117, especially since they got their ass kicked and thier presidnet got arrested and taken off in chains so they kinda hang on to that as thier 15 minutes of fame.........oh well..........Muslums will rule them soon enough..

[obd]

Actually I shouldnt really say that. In some ways I understand why they did what they did....I just dont agree with thier methods and brutality but I can understand thier fear of living among so many Muslums.............even if I cant condone genocide.....

The problem is that the war really radicalized the Muslum population and drove them more towards militancy so now I must say that I kind of understand why so many Serbs are very angry at what NATO did...because now they face a Muslum populaiton which survived thier attempted genocide and was radicalized in the process and will likely seek revenge in thier own time..................not a place I would wanna be in......

[Ratamacue]

Is there proof that it was actually shot down? To my knowledge, the F-117 isn't a very stable platform, and as such it requires computers to perform tiny corrections in flight in order to fly well. If those systems were to fail, it's highly possible it could go down.

I'm not saying that it wasn't shot down, just offering another possibility. Was there any actual signs of being hit by a SAM on the wreckage?

[obd]

Actually Rata, your correct. There really is no proof that it was shot down.......but its likely anyway.........

[RuSoKaR]

Is there proof that it was actually shot down? To my knowledge, the F-117 isn't a very stable platform, and as such it requires computers to perform tiny corrections in flight in order to fly well. If those systems were to fail, it's highly possible it could go down.


rofl rofl rofl

You just descraced Ameican Air Force :cantbeli:

[MVSpartan117]

Is there proof that it was actually shot down? To my knowledge, the F-117 isn't a very stable platform, and as such it requires computers to perform tiny corrections in flight in order to fly well. If those systems were to fail, it's highly possible it could go down.


rofl rofl rofl

You just descraced Ameican Air Force :cantbeli:

what the feck are you talking about? Systems can fail...... And it is a possibility that it happened...


And I don't understand why you said that as you did with :cantbeli: and rofl , you fail to make any sense..

[Resevoir Hogs]

Does he think it's a bad thing we have aircraft with onboard thinking computers that make it easier for pilots to fight?

Maybe you're unaware of this Rusokar but the newest Sukoi fighters with swept forward wings also employ computers to keep the aircraft stable in flight (and they have a much higher failure rate thus far than US planes)

[RuSoKaR]

I am just showing two poin of views:
one is that americans are bulding stelth planes in which system fails ( ah.. I am talking BS it was shut down)


Man people just can't believe that Yugoslavs got their hands on the F-117 (useless plane for today) with the old piece of junk,

[MVSpartan117]

Your point of views a retarded, sorry.

Nothing is ever perfect, malfuntions happen... F-117s are incredible planes, but military equipment will never be malfuction-proof.




Man people just can't believe that Yugoslavs got their hands on the F-117 (useless plane for today) with the old piece of junk,

What hell is that suppose to mean? that what the whole threads about, but no one is sure wheather it was shot down or not.

[Groove]

Well - an French Officer spied for the Serbs and told them that a F117 will strike a target and when. The Serbs had help from russians and they did a setup of a radarstations triangle around the target.

They managed to detect the F117 and a serbian Mig made visual contact and shoot it down.

So without the French Officer and the russian Radar technology they would hit a ****.

Greetings !

groove

[RuSoKaR]

Groove and how would you know that?

[RSK]

Actually I shouldnt really say that. In some ways I understand why they did what they did....I just dont agree with thier methods and brutality but I can understand thier fear of living among so many Muslums.............even if I cant condone genocide.....

The problem is that the war really radicalized the Muslum population and drove them more towards militancy so now I must say that I kind of understand why so many Serbs are very angry at what NATO did...because now they face a Muslum populaiton which survived thier attempted genocide and was radicalized in the process and will likely seek revenge in thier own time..................not a place I would wanna be in......

Read on..
This is coming from the pen of a former NATO Major General
National Post (Canada) April 06, 2004

Comment A14

We bombed the wrong side?

Lewis MacKenzie


Five years ago our television screens were dominated by pictures of
Kosovo-Albanian refugees escaping across Kosovo's borders to the sanctuaries
of Macedonia and Albania. Shrill reports indicated that Slobodan Milosevic's
security forces were conducting a campaign of genocide and that at least
100,000 Kosovo-Albanians had been exterminated and buried in mass graves
throughout the Serbian province. NATO sprung into action and, in spite of
the fact no member nation of the alliance was threatened, commenced bombing
not only Kosovo, but the infrastructure and population of Serbia itself --
without the authorizing United Nations resolution so revered by Canadian
leadership, past and present.

Those of us who warned that the West was being sucked in on the side of an
extremist, militant, Kosovo-Albanian independence movement were dismissed as
appeasers. The fact that the lead organization spearheading the fight for
independence, the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), was universally designated a
terrorist organization and known to be receiving support from Osama bin
Laden's al-Qaeda was conveniently ignored.

The recent dearth of news in the North American media regarding the increase
in violence in Kosovo compared to the comprehensive coverage in the European
press strongly suggests that we Canadians don't like to admit it when we are
wrong. On the contrary, selected news clips on this side of the ocean
continue to reinforce the popular spin that those dastardly Serbs are at it
again.

A case in point was the latest crisis that exploded on March 15. The media
reported that four Albanian boys had been chased into the river Ibar in
Mitrovica by at least two Serbs and a dog (the dog's ethnic affiliation was
not reported).
Three of the boys drowned and one escaped to the other side.
Immediately, thousands of Albanians mobilized and concentrated in the area
of the divided city. Attacks on Serbs took place throughout the province
resulting in an estimated 30 killed and 600 wounded. Thirty Serbian
Christian Orthodox churches and monasteries were destroyed, more than 300
homes were burnt to the ground and six Serbian villages cleansed of their
occupants. One hundred and fifty international peacekeepers were injured.

Totally ignored in North America were the numerous statements from impartial
sources that said there was no incident between the Serbs, the dog and the
Albanian boys. NATO Police spokesman Derek Chappell stated on March 16 that
it was "definitely not true" that the boys had been chased into the river by
Serbs. Chappell went on to say that the surviving boy had told his parents
that they had entered the river alone and that three of his friends had been
swept away by the current. Admiral Gregory Johnson, the overall NATO
commander, further stated that the ensuing clashes were "orchestrated and
well-planned ethnic cleansing" by the Kosovo-Albanians. Those Serbs forced
to leave joined the 200,000 who had been cleansed from the province since
NATO's "humanitarian" bombing in 1999. The '"cleansees" have become very
effective "cleansers."

In the same week a number of individuals posing as Serbs ambushed and killed
a UN policeman and his local police partner. During the firefight one of
them was wounded which caused an immediate switch from Serbian to Albanian
as he screamed, "I've been hit"! The UN pursued the attackers and tracked
them to an Albanian-run farm where they discovered weapons and the wounded
Albanian who had died from his wounds. Four Albanians were arrested. Once
again, the ambush had been reported in the United States but not the
follow-up which clearly indicated yet another orchestrated provocation by
the Albanian terrorists.

Kosovo is administered by the UN, the very organization many Canadians have
indicated they would like to see take over from the United States in Iraq.
The fact the UN cannot order its civilian employees to go or stay anywhere
-- they have to volunteer -- combined with recent history that saw the UN
abandon Iraq after a single brutal attack on their compound in Baghdad and
the reality that Kosovo, under the organization's administration, is a
basket case, disqualifies it from consideration for such a role.

Since the NATO/UN intervention in 1999, Kosovo has become the crime capital
of Europe. The *** slave trade is flourishing.
The province has become an invaluable transit point for drugs en route to
Europe and North America. Ironically, the majority of the drugs come from
another state "liberated" by the West, Afghanistan. Members of the
demobilized, but not eliminated, KLA are intimately involved in organized
crime and the government. The UN police arrest a small percentage of those
involved in criminal activities and turn them over to a judiciary with a
revolving door that responds to bribes and coercion.

The objective of the Albanians is to purge all non-Albanians, including the
international community's representatives, from Kosovo and ultimately link
up with mother Albania thereby achieving the goal of "Greater Albania." The
campaign started with their attacks on Serbian security forces in the early
1990s and they were successful in turning Milosevic's heavy-handed response
into worldwide sympathy for their cause. There was no genocide as claimed by
the West -- the 100,000 allegedly buried in mass graves turned out to be
around 2,000, of all ethnic origins, including those killed in combat during
the war itself.

The Kosovo-Albanians have played us like a Stradivarius. We have subsidized
and indirectly supported their violent campaign for an ethnically pure and
independent Kosovo.We have never blamed them for being the perpetrators of
the violence in the early '90s and we continue to portray them as the
designated victim today in spite of evidence to the contrary. When they
achieve independence with the help of our tax dollars combined with those of
bin Laden and al-Qaeda, just consider the message of encouragement this
sends to other terrorist-supported independence movements around the world.


Funny how we just keep digging the hole deeper!

Maj-Gen. Lewis MacKenzie, now retired, commanded UN troops during the
Bosnian civil war of 1992.

(c) 2004 National Post . All Rights Reserved.

[TALOS]

Thats actually interesting as hell, I have a little researching to do I see. I never heard this side of things, except for the part about the three boys.
Thx rsk

[REMOV]

Is there proof that it was actually shot down?Yes, the shrapnel holes in wings and fuselage. AFAIR it was shot down by missile(s) with prefragmented warhead.

http://arhiva.inet.co.yu/ratslike/rat28/f117-28-1veliki.jpg
http://www.yurope.com/kosovo/images/F117-2.jpg
http://users.net.yu/~stopwar/actions/f117/f117a.jpg

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

So what?. They attack you, so you attack them. Or you attack them so they attack you.

Your region has been like that for hundreds if not thousands of years. It'll never change because you don't WANT it too. You people get off on baiting each other and anyone around you. Thats what the point of this thread is, to bait the Americans on this forum with pictures of a downed F-117.
None of you ever show a balanced veiw of your countries actions, ie RSK post's a photo yesterday of an apparent of an atrocity in Kosovo, but doesn't post any photos of serb war crimes in the same country.

And of course its NEVER your fault. Its ALLWAYS the evil Americans/muslims/western media etc, etc, who are to blame.
And its the same with Croats, Bosnians, Albanians, etc. No matter what any of you do, no matter how horrific the crime, its ALLWAYS justified because the other side deserved it.

Do you feel content knowing your pathetic attitudes are going to perpetuate your regions misery for the forseeable future?. The irony is that no matter how much difference you see between yourselves you are all so very much alike.

What sad little people you are.

[MaDuce]

Hehehe...funny pic of the day;)

Welcome to Serbia!

http://www.beotel.yu/~fotogram/slike/nevidljivi_4m.jpg

An F-117 ejection seat in some field near town of Budjanovac.

O I thaught you where say by the tread title that that serbia had a new air craft. I mean that pic looks like a typical serbian plane in its entirety.

[RSK]

Thats actually interesting as hell, I have a little researching to do I see. I never heard this side of things, except for the part about the three boys.
Thx rsk

No problem!

[SerbPVO]

is it true that that F-117 is now in russia?



Nah, most of the plane is in the basement of the Serbia & Montenegro Aeronautical Museum.

And why would Russia even want this garbage?

[He219]

Yu Mig-29:
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/mig29nikolic03.jpg
http://airbase.ru/forum/smilies/biggrin.gif

We discussed this once before:

It was a combination of lazyness and a spy.

The flight profiles were not being changed enough and the flight profile of previous missions was leaked to the Serbs (some say by a french officer opposed to the war, but it was never made public) and they guessed when and where the next plane was coming. They fired a barage of optical guided SA-3s and got lucky.

The Stealth on the F-117 is old but not obsolete (to countries that operate old tech like Serbia and Iraq). Its flat faceted design is because the computing power needed to calculated angles and shapes with curved surfaces was not available when it was made. Like the B-2 and F-22, the F-117 isn't radar invisible... they all redirect the reflections from a radar away from the radar... ie if you point your radar directly at an F-22 from front on the radar waves are directed sideways away from your radar so you don't get a reflection. Bi static radars (ie seperate emitter and receivers) can detect and track stealth aircraft, just as metric wave radars can... a stealth aircraft like a B-2 and F-22 and F-117 use shape to deflect the radar waves away from the source... a metric wave radar has a signal so long that it can't detect the shape of the aircraft, so the whole aircraft would resonate a return, which can be used to detect the presence. (accuracy in range is so poor for metric wave radars they are only used to detect the presence of targets and to direct fighters to the vicinity... accuracy in range is about 1-2km + or - ).

I should point out that:

"They fired a barage of optical guided SA-3s and got lucky. "

Doesn't mean they were new SA-3s with optical seekers... it just means the SA-3s control system and radar network couldn't see where the F-117 was all the time with enough accuracy to guide a missile to it. (some reflections from other radars might be gathered by another radar, but without knowing anything about when that signal was sent range would be unknown and only general direction cuold be worked out... ie without range, direction, and speed you know it is there but not accurately enough to track it and send a missile or plane to "join it".)

Knowing the rough flight plan, altitiude and timings for the F-117, they simply send up a whole lot of missiles to the place they expected it to be and detonated them at the expected height.

http://airbase.ru/cache/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/200x150/NN3.JPG
Large (http://airbase.ru/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/NN3.htm)

http://airbase.ru/cache/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/200x150/f117hit-28mar1999_1.jpg
Large (http://airbase.ru/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/f117hit-28mar1999_1.htm)

http://airbase.ru/cache/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/200x150/f117hit-28mar1999_2.jpg
Large (http://airbase.ru/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/f117hit-28mar1999_2.htm)

http://airbase.ru/cache/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/200x150/NN5.JPG
Large (http://airbase.ru/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/NN5.htm)

http://airbase.ru/cache/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/200x150/NN1.JPG
Large (http://airbase.ru/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/NN1.htm)

http://airbase.ru/cache/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/200x150/NN4.JPG
[b]Large (http://airbase.ru/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/NN4.htm)

http://airbase.ru/cache/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/200x150/f117hit-28mar1999_3.jpg
Large (http://airbase.ru/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/f117hit-28mar1999_3.htm)

http://airbase.ru/cache/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/200x150/f117hit-28mar1999_5.jpg
Large (http://airbase.ru/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/f117hit-28mar1999_5.htm)

http://airbase.ru/cache/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/200x150/NN2.JPG
Large (http://airbase.ru/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/NN2.htm)

http://airbase.ru/cache/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/200x150/NN6.JPG
Large (http://airbase.ru/wars/1999-youg/f-117/img/NN6.htm)

From Jane's Defense:

The F-117 aircraft were following the same bombing route to their targets, and the Yugoslav defenders picked up on this and moved SAM sites along the paths of the incoming raids. The F-117 was downed by a massive multi-missile salvo of SA-3s. One or more of them detonated near enough to the F-117 to damage it with flying shrapnel. They at no time achieved a radar lock onto the F-117.
EA-6B jamming aircraft assigned to protect the F-117 was too distant to provide effective jamming, though in the manner the F-117 was attacked, jamming would not have been affective as the SAMS were fired unguided ballistically.

The lessons learned from the incident investigation place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the operational planners as they allowed themselves to fall into a predictable pattern by sending a sub-sonic aircraft over similar routes at around the same times leading to what is now called a "sambush" to occur. On the positive side of the equation, the USAF was able to breathe a large sigh of relief that the stealth-side of the equation was not a factor in this incident as actual SAM operators present during the shoot down who were interviewed after the fall of Slobodan Milosevic and his government have admitted to investigators they were not able to lock onto the aircraft with radar but simply fired "at" the aircraft in a manner similar to WW2 anti-aircraft fire, only using far more powerful and deadly SA-3's.

[MaDuce]

is it true that that F-117 is now in russia?



Nah, most of the plane is in the basement of the Serbia & Montenegro Aeronautical Museum.

And why would Russia even want this garbage?

Ya serbia needs it more as their current resorces are concentrated on drug, prostitute, and jihadist production.

[RuSoKaR]

It is hard to see the truth over here everyone believes in different things, but whats done that done.

The other thing is when two sides doing bad things and only the other one have to pay for that, isn't because of the same reason WWII started?

[MaDuce]

It is hard to see the truth over here everyone believes in different things, but whats done that done.

The other thing is when two sides doing bad things and only the other one have to pay for that, isn't because of the same reason WWII started?
LoL thats confusing so its prolly the reason for WW1. Assians kill some one who is linked by allianced to some one who is a sworn enemy to some one becuase they stole the stero system from their honda civic etc..

[RuSoKaR]

It is hard to see the truth over here everyone believes in different things, but whats done that done.

The other thing is when two sides doing bad things and only the other one have to pay for that, isn't because of the same reason WWII started?
LoL thats confusing so its prolly the reason for WW1. Assians kill some one who is linked by allianced to some one who is a sworn enemy to some one becuase they stole the stero system from their honda civic etc..

Na you missed the point, the point is that Germany had to pay off debhts, and it lost it's territories, also it's people suffered a lot, Germany paid for the WWI while other sides did the same terrable things as Germany did.

[Ratamacue]

Is there proof that it was actually shot down?Yes, the shrapnel holes in wings and fuselage. AFAIR it was shot down by missile(s) with prefragmented warhead.

Alright, thanks REMOV. I was just throwing out another possibility into the air, I had never really looked closely at the pictures of it after being shot down.

[Saranof]

So what?. They attack you, so you attack them. Or you attack them so they attack you.

Your region has been like that for hundreds if not thousands of years. It'll never change because you don't WANT it too. You people get off on baiting each other and anyone around you. Thats what the point of this thread is, to bait the Americans on this forum with pictures of a downed F-117.
None of you ever show a balanced veiw of your countries actions, ie RSK post's a photo yesterday of an apparent of an atrocity in Kosovo, but doesn't post any photos of serb war crimes in the same country.

And of course its NEVER your fault. Its ALLWAYS the evil Americans/muslims/western media etc, etc, who are to blame.
And its the same with Croats, Bosnians, Albanians, etc. No matter what any of you do, no matter how horrific the crime, its ALLWAYS justified because the other side deserved it.

Do you feel content knowing your pathetic attitudes are going to perpetuate your regions misery for the forseeable future?. The irony is that no matter how much difference you see between yourselves you are all so very much alike.

What sad little people you are.


I agree on that.
If it's gonna get better, you have to want things to get better for a start.

[Groove]

Groove and how would you know that?

Its was in the news in Germany.

[Merik]

The pilot of the aircraft has a brief article on his experience of being the only F-117 pilot to ever be shot down in this months Air & Space Smithsonian magazine. I suggest you guys read it.

[usa320]

I am just showing two poin of views:
one is that americans are bulding stelth planes in which system fails ( ah.. I am talking BS it was shut down)


Man people just can't believe that Yugoslavs got their hands on the F-117 (useless plane for today) with the old piece of junk,

Anyone with that poor of spelling loses any priviledge of discussing technical things like Fly-by wire controls and stealth technology.

Anywho, the wreckage was bombed to bits, but the canopy was recovered as was the ejection seat. That about it though. SOme of the airframe MAY have made it to Russia, but only in small, burned pieces.

The plan COULD have crashed due to a flight control problem, but most errors in the FBW controls were fixed after the first gulf war after several mid-life upgrades and MEP packages. so far the best argument ive seen is that the serbs just listened carefully and fired as much AAA in that direction as they could, and got a lucky shot. The reports about that massive SA-2 salvo with frag warheads is just as convincing. No guidance, just firing up as many fragmenting missiles as possible.



Nah, most of the plane is in the basement of the Serbia & Montenegro Aeronautical Museum.

And why would Russia even want this garbage?

Nah, most of the plane got destroy by an airstrike.

Russia would want that garbage because that very piece of Garabage eliminated your country's ability to wage war. Your electrical grid, your communications network. Military intelligence, command and control. All taken out in a few days by that "garbage".

BIg whoop, the serbs got lucky and shot down one plane with a ****load of missiles. We shot down at least 4 of theirs, with one missile each.

[0#256]

I am just showing two poin of views:
one is that americans are bulding stelth planes in which system fails ( ah.. I am talking BS it was shut down)


Man people just can't believe that Yugoslavs got their hands on the F-117 (useless plane for today) with the old piece of junk,

Anyone with that poor of spelling loses any priviledge of discussing technical things like Fly-by wire controls and stealth technology.

Anywho, the wreckage was bombed to bits, but the canopy was recovered as was the ejection seat. That about it though. SOme of the airframe MAY have made it to Russia, but only in small, burned pieces.

The plan COULD have crashed due to a flight control problem, but most errors in the FBW controls were fixed after the first gulf war after several mid-life upgrades and MEP packages. so far the best argument ive seen is that the serbs just listened carefully and fired as much AAA in that direction as they could, and got a lucky shot. The reports about that massive SA-2 salvo with frag warheads is just as convincing. No guidance, just firing up as many fragmenting missiles as possible.



Nah, most of the plane is in the basement of the Serbia & Montenegro Aeronautical Museum.

And why would Russia even want this garbage?

Nah, most of the plane got destroy by an airstrike.

Russia would want that garbage because that very piece of Garabage eliminated your country's ability to wage war. Your electrical grid, your communications network. Military intelligence, command and control. All taken out in a few days by that "garbage".

BIg whoop, the serbs got lucky and shot down one plane with a ****load of missiles. We shot down at least 4 of theirs, with one missile each.
You are so full of sh'it! :lol:
Ps. YOU got to CHECK you OWN spelling BEFORE you START talking about OTHERS! :backhand:

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Just what the forum needs, another fukwit Finn.

[Sierra]

LMAO!

:D

[xjym2002]

I'm totally stealthy! ;)

[edit] even the picture getting stealthy!

[edit] finally it appears.
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/790/joke_invisible_plane.jpg

[OzMan]

I don't really believe that the plane was shot down by a missile, even if it had a disintegrating warhead or whatever. It just doesn't make sense to me that a poor state like Serbia could have the technology (second-hand Soviet-era missiles) to missile down an F-117. It would be more believable to me if it were shot down by AAA, considering the size of the holes, and the amount of AAA that it's possible to put in the air (remember Desert Storm?). I think the Serbs were trying to shoot down the space shuttle with a peashooter, and got lucky.

I could just ask my uncle what really happened to it, and I'm sure he could give write me a friggin' book about it. He was one of the technology developers for the F-117 project, and was one of the last people to sign the aircraft off for final approval.

And those who call the F-117 a piece of junk/****, you can f*** off. Yes, it does have several disadvantages that I could easily name, but it is still a vital, unique, and necessary airborne combat asset. It has without a doubt paved the way for a new breed of aircraft, and by the late '80s, it sent the military aircraft industry into the 21st century. And it also earned it's developement team the Collier Trophy, the industry's most prestigious award. You can't earn one of those by spitting out a piece of worthless ****.

[0#256]

Just what the forum needs, another fukwit Finn.
Hello?
The guy is talking about "randomly fired fragment missiles"? WTF is that?
Even serbs are not that unprofessional. :lol:

We all have seen pictures of the canopy, ejection seat and some other parts on serbial soil. If it was the seat that counts, I think they would have carpet bombed it with the B52!

[Merik]

I don't really believe that the plane was shot down by a missile, even if it had a disintegrating warhead or whatever. It just doesn't make sense to me that a poor state like Serbia could have the technology (second-hand Soviet-era missiles) to missile down an F-117. It would be more believable to me if it were shot down by AAA, considering the size of the holes, and the amount of AAA that it's possible to put in the air (remember Desert Storm?). I think the Serbs were trying to shoot down the space shuttle with a peashooter, and got lucky.

I could just ask my uncle what really happened to it, and I'm sure he could give write me a friggin' book about it. He was one of the technology developers for the F-117 project, and was one of the last people to sign the aircraft off for final approval.

And those who call the F-117 a piece of junk/****, you can f*** off. Yes, it does have several disadvantages that I could easily name, but it is still a vital, unique, and necessary airborne combat asset. It has without a doubt paved the way for a new breed of aircraft, and by the late '80s, it sent the military aircraft industry into the 21st century. And it also earned it's developement team the Collier Trophy, the industry's most prestigious award. You can't earn one of those by spitting out a piece of worthless ****.

Doesnt matter what shot it down because it got shot down. But like I said, the pilot even stated that it was a SAM.

[Metak]

F117 was shot down by these missiles. Two were fired, first one missed, second one did it's job.
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/straightflush01.jpg

[spectre5]

Come on, admit that your systems are not ****-proof. They have failed and will fail, that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

Anyway, what's with this fukwit thingie? :bash:

t.
Antti

[percell_086]

There was a french officer who was spying, my dad said that too ( he was in the region at the time) + it was all on the news back then, but i don't know if the stealth fighter was shot down or not, but second, wath happend to the pilot? Is he OK?

Percell

[Metak]

Russia would want that garbage because that very piece of Garabage eliminated your country's ability to wage war. Your electrical grid, your communications network. Military intelligence, command and control. All taken out in a few days by that "garbage".




No, it didn't eliminate Serbia's ability to wage war. Air attacks were succesful against large non-moving targets such as bridges, barracs, power plants, communications network,etc. but they didn't do much dammage to our command posts and mobile units, especially no to the military inteligence. This is what they hit:

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/yugotank01.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/375000/images/_377943_tank300.jpg
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/mig29kit5.jpg
(decoys)
They destroyed some tanks and APCs but the most of our equipment was well hiden in tunnels, caves, undergroud hangars, etc where it was safe and waiting NATO ground invasion.
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/tunnelmig21b.jpg
(underground hangar)

[Truthsayer]

I heard that it could be as high as 80% decoys that where hit and posted on the news and shown from NATO-debriefing videos. Anyone has more accurate numbers?

[Metak]

I don't know, but here are some articles about decoys. My favorite decoy is microwave oven :lol: :D
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/377943.stm
http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/counterpunch01.htm

[Sergei]

Russia would want that garbage because that very piece of Garabage eliminated your country's ability to wage war. Your electrical grid, your communications network. Military intelligence, command and control. All taken out in a few days by that "garbage".



If Yugoslavia had all the gadgets of Russia, NATO commanders would **** their pants on the idea of discussing a bombardment of Yugoslavia. Take a note. You know that NATO and USA bomb only small defenseless countries.
F-117 is definetely a garbage because it is only invisible to US radars. And its aerodynamics sucks big time. It wasn't nicknamed "lame goblin" for nothing. Against a strong PVO those "goblins" would be a sacrificial lamb.

[-Max2-]

If Yugoslavia had all the gadgets of Russia, NATO commanders would **** their pants on the idea of discussing a bombardment of Yugoslavia. Take a note. You know that NATO and USA bomb only small defenseless countries.
F-117 is definetely a garbage because it is only invisible to US radars. And its aerodynamics sucks big time. It wasn't nicknamed "lame goblin" for nothing. Against a strong PVO those "goblins" would be a sacrificial lamb.

Iraq in 1991 was not really a "small defenseless country". They had a lot of modern equipment and an enormous army and they were easily defeated...

And go tell to the Iraqi generals that the F-117 is a garbage... ;)

[MaDuce]

Don't mind him he is SerbPVO's butt buddy they are prolly going to Chechneya together.

[ibstolidude]

If Yugoslavia had all the gadgets of Russia, NATO commanders would **** their pants on the idea of discussing a bombardment of Yugoslavia. Take a note. You know that NATO and USA bomb only small defenseless countries.
F-117 is definetely a garbage because it is only invisible to US radars. And its aerodynamics sucks big time. It wasn't nicknamed "lame goblin" for nothing. Against a strong PVO those "goblins" would be a sacrificial lamb.
You talk out your ass.

1) - If Yugo had all the gadgets of russian then the US would not limit it-self to the manner of bombing or approval that was restricted by NATO.

2) IF means **** all - IF you had a light saber you would be cool - IF you knew what you were talking about your post would be better IF IF IF

3) The F117 is how many years old? with how many years old is the technology?

4) it isn't the people who fly/design it do not call it the "lame goblin" it has been called the "wobblin goblin" or "wobbly goblin"

5) The same style of computer stabilisation is required on several designs of SU and other world aircraft - anything with movable canards, forward swept wings, thrust vectoring and several other modern features.

6) in over 3000 combat sorties - 1 has been lost due to enemy action. Considering it was used against some of the most heavily protected targets in Iraq in 91 (1250+ sorties) that is non too shabby.

Yugoslav Army's Air Force Commander, 3-star general Spasoje Smiljanic said ref: the downing of Vega31 "Do not ask me how". It was mistakes made on the part of the US planners/pilot and excellant capitalization of the opportunity by the VJ forces.


The most humoruous are the reports from the wreckage and the old man who "began to explain to us how simple it was to produce paint which makes things invisible. "I know about these things because I used to be a mechanic."" Old people are funny.

[seventy6er]

Groove and how would you know that?

Because he can READ (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9908/27/nato.spy.01/)... :roll:

[spectre5]

COol :D

[usa320]

No, it didn't eliminate Serbia's ability to wage war. Air attacks were succesful against large non-moving targets such as bridges, barracs, power plants, communications network,etc. but they didn't do much dammage to our command posts and mobile units, especially no to the military inteligence. This is what they hit:

It didnt destroy every piece of armor or every group of troops on the ground. That wasnt its mission. That falls to the A-10, the Jaguar, the Harrier...

But what it did do is cause significant damage to ther serbian infrastructure and C3I, causing enough damage to eliminate their ability to efficiently and accurately coordinate their forces.

Thats US strategy. You dont go after each and every soldier and tank- you go after leadership, command and control. Military industry.

You dont cut off an arm of the beast, you cut off its head.

[SerbPVO]

You destroyed THIRTEEN of our tanks.
So much for destroying "Serbia's ability to wage war".

Serbia's military defense industry is actually 10x better now than it was before 1999.
So much for destroying our industrial capacities.

[MaDuce]

LOL Serbia's defense industry still sucks I mean killing Albanian villigers doesn't take much advanced tech so it was never nessescary.

[FinnishMF]

LOL Serbia's defense industry still sucks I mean killing Albanian villigers doesn't take much advanced tech so it was never nessescary.
If you don't know anything about the situation..

Shut the **** up


:cantbeli:

[RomanS]

this is awesome
keep going guys, I enjoy it a lot.

[MaDuce]

this is awesome
keep going guys, I enjoy it a lot.
You are the grandmaster flame warrior..nice tro see ya back.

[RomanS]

I am retired now

I enjoy reading more. :lol:

[FinnishMF]

this is awesome
keep going guys, I enjoy it a lot.
You enjoy just watching flamewars? :cantbeli:

Come on.. take part :D

[RomanS]

this is awesome
keep going guys, I enjoy it a lot.
You enjoy just watching flamewars? :cantbeli:

Come on.. take part :D

no WAY man

I took a break, did my hajj, and now will stay in a clean spirit. Maybe later. But right now I'm loving this stuff more than anything.

[MaDuce]

this is awesome
keep going guys, I enjoy it a lot.
You enjoy just watching flamewars? :cantbeli:

Come on.. take part :D

You would have to get a certain some on to rejoin the boards for him to do that.

[Midav]

If Yugoslavia had all the gadgets of Russia, NATO commanders would **** their pants on the idea of discussing a bombardment of Yugoslavia. Take a note. You know that NATO and USA bomb only small defenseless countries.
F-117 is definetely a garbage because it is only invisible to US radars. And its aerodynamics sucks big time. It wasn't nicknamed "lame goblin" for nothing. Against a strong PVO those "goblins" would be a sacrificial lamb.

You mean "Wobbly Goblin". The reason it was given the name, is because without its FBW (fly by wire) system, the aircraft would be uncontrollable.

The goblin pun comes from its look, last I heard.

In any case, one F-117 was downed out of how many mission sorties flown again?

Stealth has done good so far. It was never meant to be invisible. Rather, it's meant to be the next best thing to invisible.

I laughed when I saw those t-shirts that read "Sorry, we didn't know it was invisible".

Hey, neither did we ;)

[seventy6er]

You destroyed THIRTEEN of our tanks.
So much for destroying "Serbia's ability to wage war".

Serbia's military defense industry is actually 10x better now than it was before 1999.
So much for destroying our industrial capacities.

Come on. You can't believe what you're saying. Wake up kid!!

[ibstolidude]

You destroyed THIRTEEN of our tanks.
So much for destroying "Serbia's ability to wage war".

Serbia's military defense industry is actually 10x better now than it was before 1999.
So much for destroying our industrial capacities.
um, perhaps you should do some research on some of the reasons why it has improved...

I mean really.

[SerbPVO]

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v127/Pupin11/stealthSorry.jpg

http://mitya.pp.ru/anato/f117.jpg

[Midav]

http://img41.photobucket.com/albums/v127/Pupin11/stealthSorry.jpg

http://mitya.pp.ru/anato/f117.jpg

That's the "invisible" F-117.

Let's just give Lockheed more credit than is already due.

;)

As said, one out of how many? Ven's site reported a while back three were downed, as was a B-2 and hundreds of NATO aircraft.

[MaDuce]

O well they did their job in the end
http://naoruzanje.paracin.co.yu/m84-8.jpg
Serbian M-84A

[RATKO]

last pic is from war in Croatia not Kosovo

[usa320]

You destroyed THIRTEEN of our tanks

You didnt destroy any of ours.

YOur argument is moot. The F-117's mission isnt to destroy tanks. It is to kill the people giving them their orders and destroy the facilities that direct the operation of the military.

See there is interdiction, which would be attacking enemy forces. Supply lines. Ammo dumps, Fuel depots. Airfield. This is generally the job of F-15E's, Harriers, A-10's, F-16's, F-18's...Tornados.

Then theres CAS, which is destroying enemy ground forces in support of allied forces. That is done by A-10's, Harriers, helicopters, Jaguars. Sometimes F-16C's.

Then there is SEAD. Suppression of Enemy AIr defense. This is attacks against radar systems, SAM sites, AAA pieces.This is carried out by many aircraft.

And lastly there is strategic strike. That is the job of the F-117. Bombing powerplants, command, control, communications sites. Leadership facilities. Government facilities. Defense MInistry headquarters. ect... This is done by F-117's. F-14D's. F-15E's. This is not done to eliminate enemy tanks. It is done to destroy the enemies ability to give those tanks orders.

F-117's did an amazing job destroying serb Command and control and government bases of operation. Thats there job. Not to destroy tanks.

Not that youll understand that...because your lack of understanding of aerial warfare comes from your closed minded political beliefs.

[usa320]

Ven's site reported a while back three were downed, as was a B-2 and hundreds of NATO aircraft.

Vens site is full of ****...i recall one posting describing Afghan air to air kills against American F-14's.

:roll:

[RATKO]

Not that youll understand that...because your lack of understanding of aerial warfare comes from your closed minded political beliefs.
And you have military experience or you have read this somewhere?

[RATKO]

[RATKO]

Vens site is full of ****...i recall one posting describing Afghan air to air kills against American F-14's.
yes it is full of **** anti american propaganda

[DLodge]

Just to clarify some points for all the Serbs out there who are congradulating themselves on their performance during Operation Allied Force:

At the start of the war Yugoslavia possessed a significant air defense capability...

Yugoslavia’s air defenses were dominated by surface-to-air missile (SAM) batteries equipped with thousands of Soviet-made SAMs, including three SA-2 battalions; 16 SA-3 battalions, each with numerous launchers directed by LOW BLOW fire-control radars; and five SA-6 regiments fielding five batteries each, for a total of 25 SA-6 batteries directed by STRAIGHT FLUSH radars. These radar-guided SAMs were supplemented by around 100 vehicle-mounted SA-9 and several SA-13 infrared SAMs, along with a profusion of man-portable infrared SAMs, some 1,850 antiaircraft artillery (AAA) pieces, and numerous stockpiled reserve weapons and buried communications lines. Backing up these defenses, the Yugoslav air force consisted of 238 combat aircraft, including 15 MiG-29 and 64 MiG-21 fighterinterceptors. Although the Yugoslav IADS employed equipment and technologies that dated as far back as the 1960s, albeit presumably with selected upgrades, its operators knew U.S. tactics well and had practiced air defense drills and honed their operational techniques for more than four decades. They also had the benefit of more equipment and better training than did the Bosnian Serbs in 1995. Finally, they enjoyed the advantage of being protected both by mountainous terrain and by the cover of inclement weather when the air war began. ...In commenting on this layered and redundant air defense net, USAF chief of staff General Michael Ryan, who earlier had commanded Operation Deliberate Force over Bosnia in 1995, frankly conceded in congressional testimony before the start of the operation that “these guys are very good” and that friendly aircraft and aircrew losses were “a distinct possibility.” Ryan added that Yugoslavia’s IADS made for a “very substantive air defense capability” and that the Serbs maintained a “very professional army and air defense corps.” Because of the assessed robustness of the Yugoslav IADS, Pentagon planners were said to have estimated before opening night that NATO could lose as many as 10 aircraft in the initial wave of strikes.
Despite all that the Yugoslav military managed to shootdown a grand total of two manned Allied aircraft. Considering that prewar loss estimates ran into the double figures, it's fairly obvious that Serb performance was abysmal.

How about the Serb Air Force, with its collection of Mig-29s and Mig-21s?

Numerous enemy fighters, including at least a dozen MiG-29s, sought to engage attacking NATO aircraft the first night.18 One MiG-29 was reported to have fired an R-73 (NATO code-named AA-10 Alamo) radar-guided missile toward an ingressing NATO fighter in an ineffectual attempt to get off a counteroffensive shot. Two MiG-29s were downed by USAF F-15s and one by a Dutch F-16. In addition, a MiG-21 was believed to have crashed during an attempt to land. Only rarely did Serb fighters rise to challenge NATO aircraft after that. ...The third afternoon, a USAF F-15C downed two more MiG-29s, which evidently had lost contact with their ground controller and inadvertently strayed into Bosnian airspace. Although their intended NATO targets were never positively determined, it was the subsequent conclusion of the allied air commander, Lieutenant General Short, that the Serb pilots had simply lost any semblance of air situation awareness and, as a result, set themselves up as easy prey for the F-15.
Hmmm, sounds like a pretty professional air force to me.

As for the ground attack portion of the war, once NATO agreed to allow less restricted bombing of Serb facilities the effects really began to be felt...

Whatever the case, the attack moved NATO over a new threshold and brought the war, for the first time, directly to the Serbian people. By the end of the seventh week, there began to be reports of Yugoslav officials openly admitting that the country was on the verge of widespread hardship because of the air war’s mounting damage to the nation’s economy, which had already been weakened by almost four years of international sanctions imposed for Serbia’s earlier role in the war in Bosnia. The destruction of one factory in Krujevac that produced automobiles, trucks, and munitions resulted in 15,000 people being put out of work, plus 40,000 more who were employed by the factory’s various subcontractors. Attacks against other factories had similar effects on the Yugoslav economy. By the time Allied Force had reached its halfway point, the bombing of infrastructure targets had halved Yugoslavia’s economic output and deprived more than 100,000 civilians of jobs. Local economists reported that the effect was more damaging than that of the successive Nazi and allied bombing of Yugoslavia during World War II, when the country was far more rural in its economic makeup. A respected economist at Belgrade University who coordinated a group of economists from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and World Bank, Mladjan Dinkic, called the results of the bombing an “economic catastrophe,” adding that while the Serb population would not die of hunger, “our industrial base will be destroyed and the size of the economy cut in half.”
So the war ended up making the economy stronger huh? Riiiight.

Some totals...

According to the final air operations database later compiled by Hq USAFE, 421 fixed targets in 11 categories were attacked over the 78-day course of Allied Force, of which 35 percent were believed to have been destroyed, with another 10 percent sustaining no damage and the remainder suffering varying degrees of damage from light to severe. The largest single fixed-target category entailed ground-force facilities (106 targets), followed by command and control facilities (88 targets) and lines of communication, mostly bridges (68 targets). Other target categories included POL-related facilities (30 targets), industry (17 targets), airfields (8 targets), border posts (18 targets), and electrical power facilities (19 targets). In addition, 7 so-called counterregime targets were assessed as having sustained overall light damage. Finally, 60 targets were associated with Serb air defenses in two categories (radars and launch equipment), out of which two of three SA-2s, 11 of 16 SA-3s, and 3 of 25 STRAIGHT FLUSH radars associated with the SA-6 were assessed as having been destroyed.
Sounds like a rout to me.

As far as accomplishing its objectives, NATO air power achieved that in spades...

One account called Operation Allied Force “one of history’s most impressive air campaigns.” Another suggested that if the cease-fire held, the United States and its allies would have accomplished “what some military experts had predicted was impossible: a victory achieved with air power alone.” A Wall Street Journal article declared that Milosevic’s capitulation had marked “one of the biggest victories ever for air power,” finally vindicating the long-proclaimed belief of airmen that “air power alone can win some kind of victory.” And the New York Times called the operation’s outcome “a success and more—a refutation of the common wisdom that air power alone could never make a despot back down.”8 These and similar views were aired by many of the same American newspapers that, for the preceding 11 weeks, had doubted whether NATO’s strategy would ever succeed without an accompanying ground invasion. Similarly, defense analyst Andrew Krepinevich, a frequent critic of claims made by air power proponents, conceded that “almost alone, American air power broke the back of the Yugoslav military and forced Slobodan Milosevic to yield to NATO’s demands.
I just wanted to put those quotes on the table so, despite what has been posted on this thread, everyone knows just how badly the Serbs were defeated.

If you want to check my quotes, just head over to http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1365/

[Red]

I have tried not to get involved with posts posted by some serbian/albanian forum members but i cant help but notice how bitter they are toward the US,i dont blame you though,i would be bitter towards a country that kicked my ass but please tone it down,your stupid posts are getting more insane by the day. Yes ok serbia bagged themselves an F-117 but you guys lost the war.You can hang around wearing you bitterness on your sleeves while the americans have moved on.Your posts are nothing but factless, unproven,mindless dribble that is getting kind of irritating,if you have nothing else to say then i suggest that you hold your peace and quit flooding this board with your mindless dribblle.But hey thats just my opinion, the single black man that i am.

[Vitez]

This is a list of NATO aircraft damaged and destroyed by the Yugoslav Air Force and Air Defence Forces (YuAF&ADF) during the aggression on Yugoslavia between 24 March and 6 June 1999. It does not include UAVs.

24.03 - 20:35 - near Titel
Historical event for both Yugoslav Air Force and MiG-29. Maj. Nebojša Nikolić (now Lt.Col.) shot down an F-16 before being shot down himself. This was the first kill of the war and the first by a MiG-29. He received the Medal for Bravery. It was also the first kill by the Yugoslav Air Force since WW2.

25.03 - 01:00 - Sarajevo, Bosnia (Rajlovac airfield)
USAF F-15E damaged in dogfight with MiG-21. Landed at Sarajevo airfield spewing thick smoke. Confirmed by NATO. The incident was confirmed by LtCdr Sheena Thomson of SFOR during a joint NATO-SFOR press conference on 03-25-99. You can read the complete transcript of the press conference here.

26.03 - 17:20 - village Donja Trnova, 15km southwest of Bijeljina, Republic of Srpska, Bosnia
USAF F-15E. Crew was killed. The plane was hit by an air-to-air missile near Lazarevac, fired by Slobodan Peric flying MiG-29A.

26.03 - Zrenjanin
A group of eight British Harrier fighter jets came under heavy AAA fire while on a mission over Yugoslavia on 26-03-99. All of the Harriers are said to have returned to the Gioia del Colle base. However, several aircraft are believed to have been heavily damaged. According to the British Ministry of Defence, the Harriers had to turn back to their base before completing their mission.

27.03 - 20:38 - Budjanovci
One USAF F-117A, serial number 82-0806/'HO' from 49th Fighter Wing, 8th Fighter Squadron, based at Holloman, New Mexico was shot down. Aircraft was shot down by Col. Gvozden Djukic's air defense unit (official report).

01.04 - 03:05 - Zagreb, Croatia
Emergency landing of one damaged F-117A. Event reported by Radio Zagreb of Croatia.

04.04 - Sarajevo, Bosnia (Rajlovac airfield)
According to Air Forces Monthly (June 1999, p. 92), one USAF F-16C from the 31st Fighter Wing made an emergency diversion to Sarajevo airport, Bosnia-Herzegovina

06.04 - 02.30 - Aleksinac
F-16. My cousin watched it fall to the ground.

06.04 - 23:37 - Vozdovac, Belgrade
Dogfight between Yugoslav Mig-21 and US F-15. F-15 crashed near Avala mountain. Confirmed by an eyewitness.

07.04 - 02:00 - Podgorica
French Mirage 2000. Missile missed but pilot ejected anyway.

07.04 - 23:55 - Novi Sad
Belgian F-16Bof Belgian 349sqn. 42 year old pilot and 28 year old female co-pilot captured. Plane was shot down by Aleksandar Sunjka with M-55A3B1 20mm AA gun.

16.04 - 23:30 - Skopje, Macedonia (Petrovec airfield)
Emergency landing of one heavily damaged USAF A-10 serial number 81-0984/'SP' from 52nd Fighter Wing, 81st Fighter Squadron. Plane was hit with two portable SAMs. According to NATO spokesman, aircraft suferred oil pressure failure and was diverted to Petrovec for an emergency landing.

19.04 - early morning - Sarajevo (Rajlovac airfield)
Emergency landing by one Danish F-16A. Plane was damaged by a SAM but according to NATO, it was due to a serious engine problem in the early hours of the morning while flying a combat air patrol mission to protect SFOR troops in Bosnia.

25.04 - Sarajevo, Bosnia (Rajlovac airfield)
According to Air Forces Monthly and confirmed by NATO, one USAF F-15 made an emergency landing escorted by another F-15, due to a faulty hydraulic pump (possibly caused by SAM hit).

30.04
An F-117A of the 49th Fighter Wing was damaged during strike mission by a nearby explosion of an SA-3 SAM, "...causing loss of part of the tail section, but the aircraft was able to return safely to Spangdahlem air base, Germany." (source: Air Forces Monthly, July 1999, p. 75)

01.05 - 14:15 - Adriatic Sea
One USMC AV-8B from 26th MEU / VMA-231 ditched in the Adtriatic, close to the amphibious ship USS Kearsarge (LHD-3). According to NATO it crashed after losing power while preparing to land on return from a 'training mission'. The pilot ejected safely and was recoverd by a helicopter from the ship after about five minutes in the water. Yugoslav ADF claimed a hit on an AV-8B over Kosovo that day prior to NATO announcement.


02.05 - 04:00 - Nakucani near Sabac
One USAF F-16CG serial number 88-0550/'AV' from 31st Fighter Wing, 555th Fighter Squadron "Triple Nickel" based at Aviano, Italy was shot down. Aircraft was downed by Col. Gvozden Djukic's air defense unit but NATO's report says it suferred an engine failure over Metlic, while returning from a combat mission and crashed near the village of Nakucani. The pilot (probably Lt.Col. Guy "Guide" Dahlbeck) ejected and was rescued 18 km east of Kozluk by an allied combat SAR team some two hours later and returned to Aviano in good condition.

02.05 - 18:00 - Skopje, Macedonia (Petrovec airfield)
Emergency landing of one USAF A-10A serial number 81-0967/'FT' from 23rd Fighter Wing, 74th Fighter Squadron. Many eyewitnesses reported that the aircraft appeared to have serious damage to one of its engines (right engine relative to the pilot) and a wing. Several missiles were still attached to the underwing pylons, creating a danger of explosion and a panic among local residents. The pilot of the aircraft was reported to have been injured. Some 40 minutes after the crash, the aircraft was towed by a NATO vehicle to the Petrovec airport.

05.05 - morning - 75km NE of Tirana, Albania
US Army AH-64A Apache from 12th Aviation Brigade/11th Aviation Group/C Troop/6th Squadron/6th Cavalry Regiment crashed. The pilot Chief Warrant Officer 3 David A. Gibbs and the gunner Chief Warrant Officer 2 Kevin L. Reichert were killed. According to a German newspaper Welt am Sonntag, NATO's classified report cited a SAM hit as a possible reason for the crash. Article here.

13.05 - 04:25 - Nova Pazova
One B-52H hit and damaged. Aircraft then headed toward Dobanovci where it crashed. 17 people killed.

17.05 - 15:30 - between Brestovik and Smederevo
One French Mirage 2000 that crashed on a highway Belgrade-Obrenovac. Pilot ejected and captured shortly after.

20.05 - 03:03 - Borca near Belgrade
One large NATO aircraft. Story confirmed by numerous eyewitnesses. At 06:00 news, a source from the federal ministry acknowledged the downing of one large NATO bomber. Later on, it was acknowledged that it was a B-52H Stratofortress. Interesting to notice is that according to spotters from Fairford airbase, UK, one B-52H, serial number 61-0020, assigned to 96th BS (part of 2nd BW at Barksdale, Louisiana) took-off that day but never came back.

30.05 - 00:30 - Ivanovo nr Belgrade
One aircraft (according to report from Romania, French Mirage 2000) hit with Strela-2M portable SAM. Plane jettisoned its fuel tank nearIvanovo and its armament near villages Idvor and Kovacica. Romanian sources say that the aircraft crashed near Temisoara in Romania.

31.05 - 14:10 - Sabac
One aircraft hit by a missile. Immediately after that, plane jettisoned its fuel tank and headed for Bosnia airspace. From the report of local villagers, plane crashed in the eastern part of Bosnia, near Bijeljina. By the remains of the fuel tank, the aircraft is an F-16. Whole incident was televized by RTS.

07.06 - 00:30 - area between Slankamen and Indjija
One large bomber was shot down. Witnesses claim that the aircraft had four jet engines. Aircraft managed to evade the first SAM, but exploded after a direct hit by a second one. Crew probably killed. Interesting to notice is that according to Fairford spotters, one B-1B, serial number 85-0074, assigned to 77th Bombing Squadron, 28th Bombing Wing, based at Ellsworth, South Dakota took-off but never came back.

[Red]

And where did you get your information from?please post links to a CREDIBLE source.

[Red]

This is a list of NATO aircraft damaged and destroyed by the Yugoslav Air Force and Air Defence Forces (YuAF&ADF) during the aggression on Yugoslavia between 24 March and 6 June 1999. It does not include UAVs.

24.03 - 20:35 - near Titel
Historical event for both Yugoslav Air Force and MiG-29. Maj. Nebojša Nikolić (now Lt.Col.) shot down an F-16 before being shot down himself. This was the first kill of the war and the first by a MiG-29. He received the Medal for Bravery. It was also the first kill by the Yugoslav Air Force since WW2.

25.03 - 01:00 - Sarajevo, Bosnia (Rajlovac airfield)
USAF F-15E damaged in dogfight with MiG-21. Landed at Sarajevo airfield spewing thick smoke. Confirmed by NATO. The incident was confirmed by LtCdr Sheena Thomson of SFOR during a joint NATO-SFOR press conference on 03-25-99. You can read the complete transcript of the press conference here.

26.03 - 17:20 - village Donja Trnova, 15km southwest of Bijeljina, Republic of Srpska, Bosnia
USAF F-15E. Crew was killed. The plane was hit by an air-to-air missile near Lazarevac, fired by Slobodan Peric flying MiG-29A.

26.03 - Zrenjanin
A group of eight British Harrier fighter jets came under heavy AAA fire while on a mission over Yugoslavia on 26-03-99. All of the Harriers are said to have returned to the Gioia del Colle base. However, several aircraft are believed to have been heavily damaged. According to the British Ministry of Defence, the Harriers had to turn back to their base before completing their mission.

27.03 - 20:38 - Budjanovci
One USAF F-117A, serial number 82-0806/'HO' from 49th Fighter Wing, 8th Fighter Squadron, based at Holloman, New Mexico was shot down. Aircraft was shot down by Col. Gvozden Djukic's air defense unit (official report).

01.04 - 03:05 - Zagreb, Croatia
Emergency landing of one damaged F-117A. Event reported by Radio Zagreb of Croatia.

04.04 - Sarajevo, Bosnia (Rajlovac airfield)
According to Air Forces Monthly (June 1999, p. 92), one USAF F-16C from the 31st Fighter Wing made an emergency diversion to Sarajevo airport, Bosnia-Herzegovina

06.04 - 02.30 - Aleksinac
F-16. My cousin watched it fall to the ground.

06.04 - 23:37 - Vozdovac, Belgrade
Dogfight between Yugoslav Mig-21 and US F-15. F-15 crashed near Avala mountain. Confirmed by an eyewitness.

07.04 - 02:00 - Podgorica
French Mirage 2000. Missile missed but pilot ejected anyway.

07.04 - 23:55 - Novi Sad
Belgian F-16Bof Belgian 349sqn. 42 year old pilot and 28 year old female co-pilot captured. Plane was shot down by Aleksandar Sunjka with M-55A3B1 20mm AA gun.

16.04 - 23:30 - Skopje, Macedonia (Petrovec airfield)
Emergency landing of one heavily damaged USAF A-10 serial number 81-0984/'SP' from 52nd Fighter Wing, 81st Fighter Squadron. Plane was hit with two portable SAMs. According to NATO spokesman, aircraft suferred oil pressure failure and was diverted to Petrovec for an emergency landing.

19.04 - early morning - Sarajevo (Rajlovac airfield)
Emergency landing by one Danish F-16A. Plane was damaged by a SAM but according to NATO, it was due to a serious engine problem in the early hours of the morning while flying a combat air patrol mission to protect SFOR troops in Bosnia.

25.04 - Sarajevo, Bosnia (Rajlovac airfield)
According to Air Forces Monthly and confirmed by NATO, one USAF F-15 made an emergency landing escorted by another F-15, due to a faulty hydraulic pump (possibly caused by SAM hit).

30.04
An F-117A of the 49th Fighter Wing was damaged during strike mission by a nearby explosion of an SA-3 SAM, "...causing loss of part of the tail section, but the aircraft was able to return safely to Spangdahlem air base, Germany." (source: Air Forces Monthly, July 1999, p. 75)

01.05 - 14:15 - Adriatic Sea
One USMC AV-8B from 26th MEU / VMA-231 ditched in the Adtriatic, close to the amphibious ship USS Kearsarge (LHD-3). According to NATO it crashed after losing power while preparing to land on return from a 'training mission'. The pilot ejected safely and was recoverd by a helicopter from the ship after about five minutes in the water. Yugoslav ADF claimed a hit on an AV-8B over Kosovo that day prior to NATO announcement.


02.05 - 04:00 - Nakucani near Sabac
One USAF F-16CG serial number 88-0550/'AV' from 31st Fighter Wing, 555th Fighter Squadron "Triple Nickel" based at Aviano, Italy was shot down. Aircraft was downed by Col. Gvozden Djukic's air defense unit but NATO's report says it suferred an engine failure over Metlic, while returning from a combat mission and crashed near the village of Nakucani. The pilot (probably Lt.Col. Guy "Guide" Dahlbeck) ejected and was rescued 18 km east of Kozluk by an allied combat SAR team some two hours later and returned to Aviano in good condition.

02.05 - 18:00 - Skopje, Macedonia (Petrovec airfield)
Emergency landing of one USAF A-10A serial number 81-0967/'FT' from 23rd Fighter Wing, 74th Fighter Squadron. Many eyewitnesses reported that the aircraft appeared to have serious damage to one of its engines (right engine relative to the pilot) and a wing. Several missiles were still attached to the underwing pylons, creating a danger of explosion and a panic among local residents. The pilot of the aircraft was reported to have been injured. Some 40 minutes after the crash, the aircraft was towed by a NATO vehicle to the Petrovec airport.

05.05 - morning - 75km NE of Tirana, Albania
US Army AH-64A Apache from 12th Aviation Brigade/11th Aviation Group/C Troop/6th Squadron/6th Cavalry Regiment crashed. The pilot Chief Warrant Officer 3 David A. Gibbs and the gunner Chief Warrant Officer 2 Kevin L. Reichert were killed. According to a German newspaper Welt am Sonntag, NATO's classified report cited a SAM hit as a possible reason for the crash. Article here.

13.05 - 04:25 - Nova Pazova
One B-52H hit and damaged. Aircraft then headed toward Dobanovci where it crashed. 17 people killed.

17.05 - 15:30 - between Brestovik and Smederevo
One French Mirage 2000 that crashed on a highway Belgrade-Obrenovac. Pilot ejected and captured shortly after.

20.05 - 03:03 - Borca near Belgrade
One large NATO aircraft. Story confirmed by numerous eyewitnesses. At 06:00 news, a source from the federal ministry acknowledged the downing of one large NATO bomber. Later on, it was acknowledged that it was a B-52H Stratofortress. Interesting to notice is that according to spotters from Fairford airbase, UK, one B-52H, serial number 61-0020, assigned to 96th BS (part of 2nd BW at Barksdale, Louisiana) took-off that day but never came back.

30.05 - 00:30 - Ivanovo nr Belgrade
One aircraft (according to report from Romania, French Mirage 2000) hit with Strela-2M portable SAM. Plane jettisoned its fuel tank nearIvanovo and its armament near villages Idvor and Kovacica. Romanian sources say that the aircraft crashed near Temisoara in Romania.

31.05 - 14:10 - Sabac
One aircraft hit by a missile. Immediately after that, plane jettisoned its fuel tank and headed for Bosnia airspace. From the report of local villagers, plane crashed in the eastern part of Bosnia, near Bijeljina. By the remains of the fuel tank, the aircraft is an F-16. Whole incident was televized by RTS.

07.06 - 00:30 - area between Slankamen and Indjija
One large bomber was shot down. Witnesses claim that the aircraft had four jet engines. Aircraft managed to evade the first SAM, but exploded after a direct hit by a second one. Crew probably killed. Interesting to notice is that according to Fairford spotters, one B-1B, serial number 85-0074, assigned to 77th Bombing Squadron, 28th Bombing Wing, based at Ellsworth, South Dakota took-off but never came back.
you know what,this is going to be my last post on this ****ty topic but with all due respect,i think that a lot of you serbian and albanina dudes have lots of issues that ya'll need help with.Get over it,you can list all the aircraft that were destroyed by serbian forces all you want,but it does not change anything,NATO kicked your asses and you need to take into account that the air strikes were limited but i am not going to sit here and start debating this pointless topic with you,i can clearly see that you are as biased as an ass munch and you refuse to see the light but i dont care.The fact of the matter is that NATO beat you all fair and square now get over it.

[AFACadet]

rofl


oh, that was good



Please sir, may I have another! :lol:

[Red]

This post is directed towards the other "sane" members of this forum,dont you guys get tired of arguing with these serbian and albanina dudes with unbridled hate towards the US?I have tried to avoid them but this thread is just unbelieveable.I would love it if other forum members would ignore these guys that come on here and start ranting jibberish.I wish that could happen.

[Red]

rofl


oh, that was good



Please sir, may I have another! :lol:
Can you put this dude out of his misery.He clearly has his facts all muddled up.

[Vitez]

you know what,this is going to be my last post on this ****ty topic .

Yeah right. :roll:

[AFACadet]

rofl


oh, that was good



Please sir, may I have another! :lol:
Can you put this dude out of his misery.He clearly has his facts all muddled up.

I would if I could, but it won't do any difference. I remember last year how one of these guys (from the country, not above), was trying to say how a B-2 got shot down.







I saw it fly over with my own eyes a few days before.

*shrug* What can you do?

[DLodge]

No AFA, you're all wrong! We're silly naive victims of a NATO conspiracy!

Are most Serbs as delusional as some of the ones that post on this forum?

And Vitez do you mind posting the site you got your list from? Or the press conference with Lt.Cdr. Sheena Thomson of SFOR where he says an F-15E was damaged in a dogfight with a Mig-21?

[Vitez]

Can somebody translate this?

http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/tass112.htm

[DLodge]

Can somebody translate this?

http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/tass112.htm
I put it into Babelfish, and lo and behold, it discusses the missing B-2A loss! I knew someone would mention that.

But I'm still waiting on the press conference...

[AFACadet]

http://www.aeronautics.ru/ is total BS. I know someone who knows about the guy who runs that site. :roll:

[DLodge]

25.03 - 01:00 - Sarajevo, Bosnia (Rajlovac airfield)
USAF F-15E damaged in dogfight with MiG-21. Landed at Sarajevo airfield spewing thick smoke. Confirmed by NATO. The incident was confirmed by LtCdr Sheena Thomson of SFOR during a joint NATO-SFOR press conference on 03-25-99. You can read the complete transcript of the press conference here.
I found that press conference. Not only did Lt. Cdr. Sheena Thomson (who actually does exist) never even participate in it but there is no mention of any dogfight between a Mig-21 and an F-15E. Read it for yourself here http://www.nato.int/kosovo/press/p990325a.htm

Hell, I dunno why I'm even arguing with you. The rest of the list is so ludicrous that a blind man could see it's a work of fiction.

[Midav]

Can somebody translate this?

http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws002/tass112.htm

That's one of Ven's sites. The other was natodown.com or something of the like where he claimed a couple of years ago that literally hundreds of NATO aircraft were shot down and pilots killed/captured.

Not very believable, considering the lack of evidence...

[juhae]

This post is directed towards the other "sane" members of this forum,dont you guys get tired of arguing with these serbian and albanina dudes with unbridled hate towards the US?
To me it seems as if the same problems could be seen on the both extremes of the spectrum, so to say... Surely not only some of the "serbian and albanian" members should have a long look in the mirror?

[Ichhabe]

I have tried not to get involved with posts posted by some serbian/albanian forum members but i cant help but notice how bitter they are toward the US,i dont blame you though,i would be bitter towards a country that kicked my ass but please tone it down,your stupid posts are getting more insane by the day. Yes ok serbia bagged themselves an F-117 but you guys lost the war.You can hang around wearing you bitterness on your sleeves while the americans have moved on.Your posts are nothing but factless, unproven,mindless dribble that is getting kind of irritating,if you have nothing else to say then i suggest that you hold your peace and quit flooding this board with your mindless dribblle.But hey thats just my opinion, the single black man that i am.

Belive me on this; They will still be bitter about this in 2504. They will never forget this. In the Balcans they remeber forever. Idiots.

[seventy6er]

Belive me on this; They will still be bitter about this in 2504. They will never forget this. In the Balcans they remeber forever. Idiots.

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0304/spezial/Fool/appl.gif

[Metak]

LOL Serbia's defense industry still sucks I mean killing Albanian villigers doesn't take much advanced tech so it was never nessescary.
:roll:
This sucks. Same as if I say "USA defense industry still sucks I mean killing Taliban villigers doesn't take much advanced tech so it was never nessescary."
Do you undertand the point?

[MaDuce]

I have tried not to get involved with posts posted by some serbian/albanian forum members but i cant help but notice how bitter they are toward the US,i dont blame you though,i would be bitter towards a country that kicked my ass but please tone it down,your stupid posts are getting more insane by the day. Yes ok serbia bagged themselves an F-117 but you guys lost the war.You can hang around wearing you bitterness on your sleeves while the americans have moved on.Your posts are nothing but factless, unproven,mindless dribble that is getting kind of irritating,if you have nothing else to say then i suggest that you hold your peace and quit flooding this board with your mindless dribblle.But hey thats just my opinion, the single black man that i am.

Belive me on this; They will still be bitter about this in 2504. They will never forget this. In the Balcans they remeber forever. Idiots.
Due to their arab like tribal mentality.

[Metak]

You destroyed THIRTEEN of our tanks

You didnt destroy any of ours.

YOur argument is moot. The F-117's mission isnt to destroy tanks. It is to kill the people giving them their orders and destroy the facilities that direct the operation of the military.

See there is interdiction, which would be attacking enemy forces. Supply lines. Ammo dumps, Fuel depots. Airfield. This is generally the job of F-15E's, Harriers, A-10's, F-16's, F-18's...Tornados.

Then theres CAS, which is destroying enemy ground forces in support of allied forces. That is done by A-10's, Harriers, helicopters, Jaguars. Sometimes F-16C's.

Then there is SEAD. Suppression of Enemy AIr defense. This is attacks against radar systems, SAM sites, AAA pieces.This is carried out by many aircraft.

And lastly there is strategic strike. That is the job of the F-117. Bombing powerplants, command, control, communications sites. Leadership facilities. Government facilities. Defense MInistry headquarters. ect... This is done by F-117's. F-14D's. F-15E's. This is not done to eliminate enemy tanks. It is done to destroy the enemies ability to give those tanks orders.

F-117's did an amazing job destroying serb Command and control and government bases of operation. Thats there job. Not to destroy tanks.

Not that youll understand that...because your lack of understanding of aerial warfare comes from your closed minded political beliefs.


Supply lines- Nato destroyed some, but we had many more. Units were exelent supplied
Ammo dumps- Nato destoyed decoys and empy buildings. Real ammo dumps were hidden in caves, tunnels, etc. Units had a lot of ammo.
Fuel depots - only affected civilians. Army had enough fuel.
Airfields- Destoying them did not make much changes. Our Air Force could do a little agains aviation of 19 countries that attacked.
"F-117's did an amazing job destroying serb Command and control and government bases of operation"--As I know only one REAL command post was destoyed. One air force general was killed during inspectio of front lines.
"It is done to destroy the enemies ability to give those tanks orders."- They gave orders to tanks from first to last day of bombing.
"Quote:
You destroyed THIRTEEN of our tanks


You didnt destroy any of ours. "
Don't be silly-Your tanks weren't engaged.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pristina' Corpus which was deployed in Kosovo & Metohija lost 0,7% Of it' soldiers and less than 2% of it's equipment, despite combined attacs of Albanian terrorist (including their western instructirs, merceneries, mujahedeens, etc.) and NATO air strikes.

[Metak]

I have tried not to get involved with posts posted by some serbian/albanian forum members but i cant help but notice how bitter they are toward the US,i dont blame you though,i would be bitter towards a country that kicked my ass but please tone it down,your stupid posts are getting more insane by the day. Yes ok serbia bagged themselves an F-117 but you guys lost the war.You can hang around wearing you bitterness on your sleeves while the americans have moved on.Your posts are nothing but factless, unproven,mindless dribble that is getting kind of irritating,if you have nothing else to say then i suggest that you hold your peace and quit flooding this board with your mindless dribblle.But hey thats just my opinion, the single black man that i am.

Belive me on this; They will still be bitter about this in 2504. They will never forget this. In the Balcans they remeber forever. Idiots.


Easy, guys. I dont see any hate, just an ordinary discussion.

[Metak]

I have tried not to get involved with posts posted by some serbian/albanian forum members but i cant help but notice how bitter they are toward the US,i dont blame you though,i would be bitter towards a country that kicked my ass but please tone it down,your stupid posts are getting more insane by the day. Yes ok serbia bagged themselves an F-117 but you guys lost the war.You can hang around wearing you bitterness on your sleeves while the americans have moved on.Your posts are nothing but factless, unproven,mindless dribble that is getting kind of irritating,if you have nothing else to say then i suggest that you hold your peace and quit flooding this board with your mindless dribblle.But hey thats just my opinion, the single black man that i am.

Belive me on this; They will still be bitter about this in 2504. They will never forget this. In the Balcans they remeber forever. Idiots.
Due to their arab like tribal mentality.

Yeah sure, you lived in Serbia so you know our mentalty.
Don't insult.
http://users.net.yu/~skid/webs/kuracpalac/wargames/yu99slike/images/jdikic-02_jpg.jpg

[DLodge]

Supply lines- Nato destroyed some, but we had many more. Units were exelent supplied
Ammo dumps- Nato destoyed decoys and empy buildings. Real ammo dumps were hidden in caves, tunnels, etc. Units had a lot of ammo.
Fuel depots - only affected civilians. Army had enough fuel.
Airfields- Destoying them did not make much changes. Our Air Force could do a little agains aviation of 19 countries that attacked.
"F-117's did an amazing job destroying serb Command and control and government bases of operation"--As I know only one REAL command post was destoyed. One air force general was killed during inspectio of front lines.
"It is done to destroy the enemies ability to give those tanks orders."- They gave orders to tanks from first to last day of bombing.
So let's pretend that this revisionist history is true. If the NATO air strikes accomplished little against the wily Serb forces, why did Milosevic capitulate?

[martinexsquaddie]

whatever you say serbs commited the biggest warcrime in europe since ww11 in Srebencia and eventually got put back in there box for good. start up again and your get bombed again goes for all your murderous little pals in the rest of the balkans too.
its the 21st centuary join the rest of europe in not killing your neighbour
its easy even the British the French and the Germans have managed for over 50 years. rofl
and we really went for it :lol:

[Metak]

Supply lines- Nato destroyed some, but we had many more. Units were exelent supplied
Ammo dumps- Nato destoyed decoys and empy buildings. Real ammo dumps were hidden in caves, tunnels, etc. Units had a lot of ammo.
Fuel depots - only affected civilians. Army had enough fuel.
Airfields- Destoying them did not make much changes. Our Air Force could do a little agains aviation of 19 countries that attacked.
"F-117's did an amazing job destroying serb Command and control and government bases of operation"--As I know only one REAL command post was destoyed. One air force general was killed during inspectio of front lines.
"It is done to destroy the enemies ability to give those tanks orders."- They gave orders to tanks from first to last day of bombing.
So let's pretend that this revisionist history is true. If the NATO air strikes accomplished little against the wily Serb forces, why did Milosevic capitulate?

Overall ratio was 600:1. Whole Nato had 600 times more power (+ Albanian terrorists) than Serbia alone, that's why.

[Metak]

whatever you say serbs commited the biggest warcrime in europe since ww11 in Srebencia and eventually got put back in there box for good. start up again and your get bombed again goes for all your murderous little pals in the rest of the balkans too.
its the 21st centuary join the rest of europe in not killing your neighbour
its easy even the British the French and the Germans have managed for over 50 years. rofl
and we really went for it :lol:
Are you sure about war crimes? If you want i'll send you PM about Nato crimes in Yugoslavia
"start up again and your get bombed again goes for all your murderous little pals in the rest of the balkans too."
Is this some kind of threat? Russians had same problems with Cechenya. Why didn"t NATO bomb them? No enough balls, eh?

[MaDuce]

whatever you say serbs commited the biggest warcrime in europe since ww11 in Srebencia and eventually got put back in there box for good. start up again and your get bombed again goes for all your murderous little pals in the rest of the balkans too.
its the 21st centuary join the rest of europe in not killing your neighbour
its easy even the British the French and the Germans have managed for over 50 years. rofl
and we really went for it :lol:
Are you sure about war crimes? If you want i'll send you PM about Nato crimes in Yugoslavia
"start up again and your get bombed again goes for all your murderous little pals in the rest of the balkans too."
Is this some kind of threat? Russians had same problems with Cechenya. Why didn"t NATO bomb them? No enough balls, eh?
Russia is after terrorist scum so we have no reason to bomb Russia.

[DLodge]

Are you sure about war crimes?
Yes, and so is every news source in the free world. Why don't you look up "Kosovo, 1999" at *******, Associated Press, The New York Times, The London Times, The Wall Street Journal, CNN, BBC, Le Monde, La Tribune, The Moscow Times, Der Spiegel, etc.

Oh wait, are they all involved in a NATO conspiracy to distort the truth?

[goldman]

Whole Nato had 600 times more power (+ Albanian terrorists) than Serbia alone, that's why.[/quote]

Albanian terrorist!, what ta hell are you talk about, i mean wow this really offends as being an albanian, have the kla ever put bombs in belgrade or else where in kosovo or serbia killing innocent women and children. I was there when serb military and paramilitary units entered my neighberhood in pristina three weeks after the nato bombing and dont you dare call my people terrorists you peice of ****.

[DLodge]

Overall ratio was 600:1. Whole Nato had 600 times more power (+ Albanian terrorists) than Serbia alone, that's why.
600:1 what? What's a power ratio? A measure of bullets? Of bombs?

Anyway, according to you that "power" was mostly ineffectual. You said yourself that command and control remained functioning, that the oil supplies weren't hurt, that only 13 tanks were destroyed, etc.

[RATKO]

Klecka?
Radonjicko jezero?
That cafe in Pec?
What did UCK there?

[RATKO]

BTW Yugoslavia is same size as Kentucky

[ibstolidude]

Let me forewarn, a digression to the Albanian v/s Serb warfare of the past month will NOT be tolerated - take it to PM or go elsewhere.

[DLodge]

Klecka?
Radonjicko jezero?
That cafe in Pec?
What did UCK there?
I assume you're referring to civilian casualties caused by NATO bombs that missed their target?

Human Rights Watch, a very legitimate nonprofit organization that is most certainly not pro-American estimates that "as few as 488 and as many as 527 Yugoslav civilians were killed as a result of NATO bombing."
http://hrw.org/reports/2000/nato/
Now I suppose you'll trot out the tired old statistics the Yugoslav government tried to claim, which were between 1,200 and 5,000. Obviously one of the two sources here has a vested interest in exaggerating civilian casualties, and it's not HRW.

In comparison, the numbers of Albanians massacred or forced to become refugees runs into the tens of thousands. Whole villages were slaughtered, women raped, children killed in the most vicious ways imaginable. Those facts are inescapable. Just look them up on any one of a hundred news sites.


BTW Yugoslavia is same size as Kentucky
What of it? Israel is only 2 and 1/2 times the size of Rhode Island.

ibstolidude, I hope this post is acceptable. I refrained from making personal/racist attacks and tried to stay on topic but obviously you reserve the right to delete it if you consider it to be too inflamminatory.

[RATKO]

No i was refering to war crimes commited by UCK

[DLodge]

No i was refering to war crimes commited by UCK
Sorry, my mistake. But they say two wrongs don't make a right; in no way do the (admittedly) horrific tactics of some Albanians excuse the Serb government for its organized campaign of war crimes.

If the U.S. decided to wipe out an entire Taliban village to avenge the Twin Towers we would most definitely be in the wrong...

[MaDuce]

In comparison, the numbers of Albanians massacred or forced to become refugees runs into the tens of thousands. Whole villages were slaughtered, women raped, children killed in the most vicious ways imaginable. Those facts are inescapable. Just look them up on any one of a hundred news sites.

Melosivec(sp) likes leading Hitler style.

[juhae]

[So let's pretend that this revisionist history is true. If the NATO air strikes accomplished little against the wily Serb forces, why did Milosevic capitulate?
I read an interesting bit from the news some months ago, it speculated that the international court at Hague may not achieve much against Milosevic in the end, since they've had problems while trying to blame M. for the atrocities in Kosovo, and have been forced to include events in Croatia and Bosnia, which in turn introduces another problem - he won't be the only one guilty anymore.

Furthermore, as there's a very strong sentiment against the countries which previously bombed Serbia (I figure I'm right here, given what I've read, and what I've observed from the behaviour of our serbian members here.), Milosevic is playing a smart man's game. When he's blamed of killing civilians, he deflects the questions by showing pictures of how NATO killed Serbian civilians, which in turn puts the public opinion to question why none of the officials responsible for the bombings are not in the court as well.

I'm rather interested to see how the situation can develope, as it's almost a textbook example of a Catch-22 right now.

[Metak]

Whole Nato had 600 times more power (+ Albanian terrorists) than Serbia alone, that's why.

Albanian terrorist!, what ta hell are you talk about, i mean wow this really offends as being an albanian, have the kla ever put bombs in belgrade or else where in kosovo or serbia killing innocent women and children. I was there when serb military and paramilitary units entered my neighberhood in pristina three weeks after the nato bombing and dont you dare call my people terrorists you peice of ****.[/quote]

No, they didn't put bombs in Belgrade, but they did all over Kosovo & Metohija. They killed innocent women and children, do you want pics on PM?
Albanian terrorists - have a look:
http://www.balkanpeace.org/our/our02.shtml
http://www.balkanpeace.org/our/our09.shtml

UCK in quotations
"Ten years ago we were arming and equipping the worst elements of the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan - drug traffickers, arms smugglers, anti-American terrorists…Now we're doing the same thing with the KLA, which is tied in with every known middle and far eastern drug cartel. Interpol, Europol, and nearly every European intelligence and counter-narcotics agency has files open on drug syndicates that lead right to the KLA, and right to Albanian gangs in this country."
former DEA agent and author Michael Levine
Quoted in the New American Magazine, May 24, 1999

"American intelligence agents have admitted they helped to train the Kosovo Liberation Army before NATO’s bombing of Yugoslavia".
Tom Walker and Aiden Laverty, ‘CIA Aided Kosovo Guerrilla Army’, Sunday Times, 12 March 2000

[Royal]

Let me forewarn, a digression to the Albanian v/s Serb warfare of the past month will NOT be tolerated - take it to PM or go elsewhere.

There are plenty of us here who know first hand about the war crimes commited by the UCK and VJ/MUP or for that matter the Armija BiH, HVO ARSK etc. etc. etc.

Take it to bloody PM :bash:

[usa320]

dogfight between a Mig-21 and an F-15E

The MiG-21 wouldnt even get close enough.

The F-15E has the second best A-A radar of any US airplane, second only to the F-14D.

Combine that with the 20m range of the AIM-120, and its safe to say the MiG-21 would be shot down before it got within 2 miles to engage with guns.

Also, i dont recall ANY MiG-21's engaging in That operation. The only planes i know that engaged in AA combat were 4 MiG-29's, which were shot down by F-15C's.