Russia vs. China

[eugenlitwin]

Russia


Country
China







Flag











$18,000,000,000


Yearly Military Expenditure (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_mil_exp.asp)
$81,480,000,000





18


Minimum Enlistment Age
18





35,247,049


Available Military Manpower (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_avail_mil_manpower.asp)
342,956,265





3,037,000


Total Military Personnel (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_act_mil_personnel.asp)
7,024,000





1,037,000


Active Frontline Personnel (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_frontline_personnel.asp)
2,255,000





7,331


Aircraft (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_aircraft.asp)
9,218





48,270


Armor (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_armor.asp)
13,200





30,045


Artillery (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_artillery.asp)
29,060





19,250


Missile Defense Systems (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_missile_defense.asp)
18,500





19,300


Infantry Support Systems (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_infantry_support.asp)
34,000





701


Navy Units (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_ships.asp)
284





1,199


Merchant Marine Units (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_merchant.asp)
1,700





10


Major Ports
7





9,150,000 (bbl per day)


Oil Production (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_oil_prod.asp)
3,504,000 (bbl per day)





2,800,000 (bbl per day)


Oil Consumption (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_oil_consum.asp)
6,391,000 (bbl per day)





69,000,000,000


Proven Oil Reserves (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_oil_proven.asp)
18,260,000,000





$130,000,000


Arms Exports (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_smallarms_export.asp)
$100,000,000





$12,000,000


Arms Imports (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_smallarms_import.asp)
$NR





537,289 Km


Roadways (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_roadways.asp)
1,809,829 Km





87,157 Km


Railways (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_railroads.asp)
71,898 Km





96,000 Km


Waterways (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_waterways.asp)
123,964 Km





17,075,200 Sq Km


Land Area (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_sqarea.asp)
9,596,960 Sq Km





1,730


Airports (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_airports.asp)
489





74,220,000


Labor Force (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_workforce.asp)
791,400,000





$1,539,000,000,000


Purchasing Power (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_purchasingpwr.asp)
$8,182,000,000,000





$181,300,000,000


Gold Reserves (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_gold_reserves.asp)
$795,100,000,000

[Victrix]

Russia:-*$ China

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

hhhmmm seems russia has another bear in the woods to be afraid of...and this time its a "panda" bear!

[KillerBD]

Russia:-*$ China

x2 Russia (the red guy):-*$ :-*$ :-*$ :-*$ :-*$ China (the blue guy)

[Pandy]

hhhmmm seems russia has another bear in the woods to be afraid of...and this time its a "panda" bear!

Ahhhhhhhhh, I hope it isn't me.

[Noble713]

Hmmmm, all that data and it left off one of the most important ones: # nuclear warheads. I think it's somewhere around 3,000+ for Russia and ~500 for China.

[9mmRifle]

They already had a short war during the Sino-Soviet split,
Mao and Stalin were friends but Mao denounced 'Khrushchevism'

There was even confrontation - China had detonated its first nuclear device in 1964 but it would have been no match for the USSR. Nixon and Kissinger had decided to support Mao against America's bigger enemy -those communist Ruskies
http://travel.ec-t.com/CityTravel/images/nixon-wushu.jpg

Relations have improved greatly with the more recent downfall of the Soviet Union which ended the Sino-Soviet split, the Chinese and Russians have grown a lot closer in recent years. Both Russia and China have found common interests with the United States as the sole superpower. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv5Nf0Ypro0
They signed a new twenty-year strategic treaty as the PRC and Russia fear an encroachment by the United States

[9mmRifle]

Russia



Country

China




Flag










$18,000,000,000



Yearly Military Expenditure (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_mil_exp.asp)

$81,480,000,000



18



Minimum Enlistment Age

18



35,247,049



Available Military Manpower (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_avail_mil_manpower.asp)

342,956,265



3,037,000



Total Military Personnel (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_act_mil_personnel.asp)

7,024,000



1,037,000



Active Frontline Personnel (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_frontline_personnel.asp)

2,255,000



7,331



Aircraft (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_aircraft.asp)

9,218



48,270



Armor (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_armor.asp)

13,200



30,045



Artillery (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_artillery.asp)

29,060



19,250



Missile Defense Systems (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_missile_defense.asp)

18,500



19,300



Infantry Support Systems (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_infantry_support.asp)

34,000



701



Navy Units (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_ships.asp)

284



1,199



Merchant Marine Units (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_merchant.asp)

1,700



10



Major Ports

7



9,150,000 (bbl per day)



Oil Production (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_oil_prod.asp)

3,504,000 (bbl per day)



2,800,000 (bbl per day)



Oil Consumption (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_oil_consum.asp)

6,391,000 (bbl per day)



69,000,000,000



Proven Oil Reserves (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_oil_proven.asp)

18,260,000,000



$130,000,000



Arms Exports (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_smallarms_export.asp)

$100,000,000



$12,000,000



Arms Imports (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_smallarms_import.asp)

$NR



537,289 Km



Roadways (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_roadways.asp)

1,809,829 Km



87,157 Km



Railways (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_railroads.asp)

71,898 Km



96,000 Km



Waterways (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_waterways.asp)

123,964 Km



17,075,200 Sq Km



Land Area (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_sqarea.asp)

9,596,960 Sq Km



1,730



Airports (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_airports.asp)

489



74,220,000



Labor Force (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_workforce.asp)

791,400,000



$1,539,000,000,000



Purchasing Power (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_purchasingpwr.asp)

$8,182,000,000,000



$181,300,000,000



Gold Reserves (http://www.globalfirepower.com/list_gold_reserves.asp)

$795,100,000,000

Eugenlitwin, Where did you get the info from ?

[asch]

Hmmmm, all that data and it left off one of the most important ones: # nuclear warheads. I think it's somewhere around 3,000+ for Russia and ~500 for China.

source (http://www.cdi.org/nuclear/database/nukestab.html)
Suspected Strategic Nuclear Weapons
China:
20
Russia:
~ 6,000

Suspected Non-Strategic Nuclear Weapons
China:
390
Russia:
~ 4,000

Suspected Total Nuclear Weapons
China:
410
Russia:
~10,000

har
har
har!
:)


Eugenlitwin, Where did you get the info from ?
from www.globalfirepower.com

[fourenziks]

I would'nt mess with Russia, if I was China.

[RomanS]

hhhmmm seems russia has another bear in the woods to be afraid of...and this time its a "panda" bear!

Seems to me panda needs the food and gas to power its own ass

[chuckster]

One should be careful of comparing simple statistics. No doubt Russia could defeat China's hardware, but how do you occupy a nation of a billion and a half people on their own ground with much of it very rugged terrain. I think we're talking about the mother of all guriella wars.

[Victrix]

One should be careful of comparing simple statistics. No doubt Russia could defeat China's hardware, but how do you occupy a nation of a billion and a half people on their own ground with much of it very rugged terrain. I think we're talking about the mother of all guriella wars.

you respond in the same way, guerilla warfare...i think future warfare will be concentrated around precision navigation systems, and small groups of super special troops (on pills)....age of tanks, and mass scale invasion is all in the past...

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

Seems to me panda needs the food and gas to power its own ass

...and they've had no problem getting it from africa, south america and the middle east.

i also think these figures are VERY important...

CHINA

GDP (purchasing power parity):
$8.859 trillion (2005 est.)

GDP (official exchange rate):
$2.225 trillion (2005 est.)

GDP - real growth rate:
9.9% (official data) (2005 est.)

GDP - per capita (PPP):
$6,800 (2005 est.)

RUSSIA

GDP (purchasing power parity):
$1.589 trillion (2005 est.)

GDP (official exchange rate):
$740.7 billion (2005 est.)

GDP - real growth rate:
6.4% (2005 est.)

GDP - per capita (PPP):
$11,100 (2005 est.)

the only thing you could mention as a strength of russia is the GDP but then we'd have to compare these figures...

CHINA: Total Pop. 1,313,973,713 (July 2006 est.); Pop. Growth Rate: 0.59% (2006 est.) (however how long this holds up...who knows, there are plans in place to stabilize this growth rate)

RUSSIA: Total Pop. 142,893,540 (July 2006 est.); Pop. Growth Rate: -0.37% (2006 est.) (note there is a - in front)

the nukes are the only true difference in russia's defense but i dont think china would sit back and take it without launching whatever they've got right back at russia's cities. also im not entirely sure how much the PRC is willing to give out about the true size of their nuclear arsenal.

to me china and russia are completely uncomparable on a military or economic level.

got these from www.cia.gov and the world fact book there

[Pandy]

I'm with I'mOnlyHalfPolish, it's hard to compare the military forces between these two nations in a war. I would say in a land war, China would have the upper hand... but of course, it's gonna be a nuclear war, and Russia and China would get wipped by each other. Then good bye world economy.

[GazB]

One should be careful of comparing simple statistics. No doubt Russia could defeat China's hardware, but how do you occupy a nation of a billion and a half people on their own ground with much of it very rugged terrain. I think we're talking about the mother of all guriella wars.

Well the Japanese seemed to subdue them in 1936 pretty good.
I doubt the Russians would fight the Chinese for land so occupying land would not really be an issue. Considering US promises to help Taiwan China vs US is far more realistic.
Comparing a TOPOL to a chinese weapon is not really fair. The Russians could fire three or four warheads at each suspected launch site in China and wipe out all their weapons and retain most of their nuclear weapons to ensure noone else takes advantage of the situation.
Comparing a Blackjack to a Badger is amusing. While the Chinese have new Flankers most of their aircraft fleet are Mig-17 or -21 based. With their armour much is still based on the T-55.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

The Russians could fire three or four warheads at each suspected launch site in China and wipe out all their weapons and retain most of their nuclear weapons to ensure noone else takes advantage of the situation.

would we expect the chinese to not make any strategic first strikes?

although russia does a technological advantage in the fact that much of china's arsenal is bolstered by russian made hardware.

[Violet Fashion by Mindy]

The Chinese/Mongals (Putting them in the same boat for arguments sake) tried and tried and tried and tried and tried some more. To invade Russia. For alot of they suceeded. However time and time again the Russians managed withstand the Asian and Muslim onslaught for that matter. And carved out a nice little empire for itself.

History has a habit of repeating itself.

[Opening Batsman]

Is it just me, or is that website saying the North Korea has more military personell than it does available military manpower?

[Noble713]

Well the Japanese seemed to subdue them in 1936 pretty good.


I think the Japanese were only holding about 1/10th of what is considered "China" (basically all the worthwhile bits along the coast). They never had the manpower to press farther so I'm not sure that's a good example.

[czaba]

only oil can be a reason for war, i think nobody use strategic nuclear weapon, only non-strategic to stop invasion:bash:

[eugenlitwin]

hhhmmm seems russia has another bear in the woods to be afraid of...and this time its a "panda" bear!


Full of steroids panda. rofl


China today has almost 7 times bigger
GDP


GDP (purchasing power parity):
$8.859 trillion (2005 est.)

GDP (official exchange rate):
$2.225 trillion (2005 est.)

RUSSIA

GDP (purchasing power parity):
$1.589 trillion (2005 est.)

GDP (official exchange rate):
$740.7 billion (2005 est.)

[eugenlitwin]

only oil can be a reason for war, i think nobody use strategic nuclear weapon, only non-strategic to stop invasion:bash:

Not just a ole or gas, territory as well check out XVIII century maps and modern, for China Russia one more barbarian state which cut piece of china in moment when china was not on the top.

[BCE_CYKU]

source (http://www.cdi.org/nuclear/database/nukestab.html)
Suspected Strategic Nuclear Weapons
China:
20
Russia:
~ 6,000

Suspected Non-Strategic Nuclear Weapons
China:
390
Russia:
~ 4,000

Suspected Total Nuclear Weapons
China:
410
Russia:
~10,000

har
har
har!
:)


from www.globalfirepower.com (http://www.globalfirepower.com)

just one problem bratan, the chinese are already conquering Russia, and it hurts me to say this, but they are entering Siberia and settling there, I heard that there are whole towns of them there, thats expansion, no need for nukes, artillery or the army

while Russia is dying drinking real alcohol and the fake **** (in the news recently) and spreading smoking and drinking propoganda in its movies

I am not saying this with pleasure, on the contrary I'd love to see Russia prosper in other ways not just economy, I'd love to see Russians give up on drinking and smoking I'd love to see the population go up instead of down, but at the moment the future doesnt look to bright

[eugenlitwin]

the chinese are already conquering Russia, and it hurts me to say this, but they are entering Siberia and settling there, I heard that there are whole towns of them there, thats expansion, no need for nukes, artillery or the army

while Russia is dying drinking real alcohol and the fake **** (in the news recently) and spreading smoking and drinking propoganda in its movies

I am not saying this with pleasure, on the contrary I'd love to see Russia prosper in other ways not just economy, I'd love to see Russians give up on drinking and smoking I'd love to see the population go up instead of down, but at the moment the future doesnt look to bright[/quote]


I know it, nobody even know haw many Chinese are living behind of the Ural...
PS Way Putin accept slow occupation?

[Flamming_Python]

I wouldn't say it's a threat yet. There aren't actually as many illegal Chinese as many of the newspapers and small-time politicians claim. In fact it is closer to 300,000 - 400,000 in Russia, but of those, most either work in Russia and then go back to China, or they are shuttle traders, with comparitvly few Chinese settling down to live in the country.

There are many Chinese gangs and criminal organisations (Triads) in the far east of Russia especially, a region which is increasingly tied to the Chinese economy. All the more reason to create incentives in order for Russians to stop leaving and instead move there and start working, as well as include a greater role for Japan and South Korea in the economy of the region.

I believe that all these steps will be done in time, along with curbing the number of Chinese entering the country (something that is already being focussed on). I personally think that Chinese people have far less problems with assimilating into native cultures than many other illegal peoples that Russia is currently getting. Granted it may become a problem in the future, but for now Putin has much more pressing concerns to deal with, and links and trade are booming with China right now, so no-one wants to upset the balance.

There is a certain paranoia about China, but I am not concerned. The age of empires is over, and Russian territory will remain Russian. After all, Russia has a habit of balancing out its politics, and provided we don't get a stupid leader, I feel that the most that will happen is that the area will become dominated economically and possibly culturally (and even this is not all that likely provided appropriate policies are implemented), but not politically.

[eugenlitwin]

I wouldn't say it's a threat yet. There aren't actually as many illegal Chinese as many of the newspapers and small-time politicians claim. In fact it is closer to 300,000 - 400,000 in

Where did you find this information?



There are many Chinese gangs and criminal organisations (Triads) in the far east of Russia especially, a region which is increasingly tied to the Chinese economy. All the more reason to create incentives in order for Russians to stop leaving and instead move there and start working, as well as include a greater role for Japan and South Korea in the economy of the region.

I believe that all these steps will be done in time, along with curbing the number of Chinese entering the country (something that is already being focussed on). I personally think that Chinese people have far less problems with assimilating into native cultures than many other illegal peoples that Russia is currently getting. Granted it may become a problem in the future, but for now Putin has much more pressing concerns to deal with, and links and trade are booming with China right now, so no-one wants to upset the balance.

There is a certain paranoia about China, but I am not concerned. The age of empires is over, and Russian territory will remain Russian. After all, Russia has a habit of balancing out its politics, and provided we don't get a stupid leader, I feel that the most that will happen is that the area will become dominated economically and possibly culturally (and even this is not all that likely provided appropriate policies are implemented), but not politically.



Are u sort of official here?rofl

[Flamming_Python]

Are u sort of official here?rofl

Yes. In fact I am a spokesman for Vladimir Putin himself, despite living in Britain. But I am authorised to speak with full authority of the things I read in reliable sources, and what I hear when I talk to other Russians.

Sorry eugenelitwin, but looks like your wet dream of Russia being destroyed will have to wait a few decades more rofl

[Wall]

Nobody would win, simple.

[eugenlitwin]

Yes. In fact I am a spokesman for Vladimir Putin himself, despite living in Britain. But I am authorised to speak with full authority of the things I read in reliable sources, and what I hear when I talk to other Russians.

Sorry eugenelitwin, but looks like your wet dream of Russia being destroyed will have to wait a few decades more rofl

bull ****t why do u think so?
I wish to long live you and your county...p-)

[Switek]

Nobody would win, simple.

Chuck Norris would...

[Saranof]

I thought there was a rule against quote, "Russian vs whoever" threads? Mainly because they are retarded.

[Flamming_Python]

bull ****t why do u think so?
I wish to long live you and your county...p-)

Just making a joke mate relax :)

Seriously though, why did you create this topic? America has an economy that is bigger than China's and Russia's, as well as having double the manpower of the RF, but you wouldn't say that America would be capable of conquering Russia, so why China?

Such threads are rubbish, as though the demographic and economic arguement is a good one (and a genuine concern for many Russians) for the long-term, the chances of a Chinese military victory are remote.

Right now China would not be able to defeat even Russia's conventional forces, much less occupy the territories, supress the insurgency in the regions (impossible due to the size of Russia's far east alone), and press on the attack further to the Ural mountains (logistically impossible) in order to stem re-inforcements from the West. Within a few decades it is quite possible that China's conventional military capability would surpass Russia's, but this will still of course assume that the Russian Nuclear arsenal somehow vanishes into thin air when the Chinese invade.

[eugenlitwin]

Just making a joke mate relax :)

Seriously though, why did you create this topic? America has an economy that is bigger than China's and Russia's, as well as having double the manpower of the RF, but you wouldn't say that America would be capable of conquering Russia, so why China?

Such threads are rubbish, as though the demographic and economic arguement is a good one (and a genuine concern for many Russians) for the long-term, the chances of a Chinese military victory are remote.

Right now China would not be able to defeat even Russia's conventional forces, much less occupy the territories, supress the insurgency in the regions (impossible due to the size of Russia's far east alone), and press on the attack further to the Ural mountains (logistically impossible) in order to stem re-inforcements from the West. Within a few decades it is quite possible that China's conventional military capability would surpass Russia's, but this will still of course assume that the Russian Nuclear arsenal somehow vanishes into thin air when the Chinese invade.


Tray with google Tibet, Ugur China, let say China can do many things what US could t…

PS
Topic China vs India is better?

[StukaJr]

Col. Andy Tanner: Six hundred million screaming Chinamen.
Darryl Bates: Last I heard, there were a billion screaming Chinamen.
Col. Andy Tanner: There *were*.
[throws whiskey on the fire]

Otherwise - this thread is ret4rd3d.

[TR1]

1,) this thread is retarded
2.) the chinese would be turned into minced meat if they ever tried to fight a war..........and we are not talking about a nuclera war here. The Russian navy has a clear advantage, the RuAF would sweap the skie of PLAF planes, I won;t even start talking about the comparison between Russian and Chinese air defenses, and the Russian ground forces as a whole are far better equipped with more modern technology.
oh yeah, and 3.) the chance of a war between the two nations in the near future is nil, both countries value the current friendship.

[Abolith]

Hmmmm, all that data and it left off one of the most important ones: # nuclear warheads. I think it's somewhere around 3,000+ for Russia and ~500 for China.

um no Russia has the following:

Strategic Nuclear Weapons: ~6,000

Nonstrategic Nuclear Weapons: 6,000-13,000

Total Nuclear Weapons: 12,000-19,000

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

1,) this thread is retarded
2.) the chinese would be turned into minced meat if they ever tried to fight a war..........and we are not talking about a nuclera war here. The Russian navy has a clear advantage, the RuAF would sweap the skie of PLAF planes, I won;t even start talking about the comparison between Russian and Chinese air defenses, and the Russian ground forces as a whole are far better equipped with more modern technology.
oh yeah, and 3.) the chance of a war between the two nations in the near future is nil, both countries value the current friendship.

yes but the war would be absolutely devastating for the russian people in cost of lives lost, whereas the chinese seem to have plenty to spare

im going to restate this again...russia and china CANNOT be compared either militarily nor economically, its impossible.

i think a more interesting thread would be a russia v. turkey, NATO, or ME country (maybe iran, obviously this wouldnt happen but just for scholarly considersation)

[TR1]

yes but the war would be absolutely devastating for the russian people in cost of lives lost, whereas the chinese seem to have plenty to spare

im going to restate this again...russia and china CANNOT be compared either militarily nor economically, its impossible.

i think a more interesting thread would be a russia v. turkey, NATO, or ME country (maybe iran, obviously this wouldnt happen but just for scholarly considersation)
yes, Russia can be compared to China, militarly. Russia has plenty of means at it disposal to wipe out conventional Chinese forces, now ever many they number. Infantry numbers mean only so much. In terms of actual effective equipment, Russia has the edge in quality or quantity. of course, if it goes NBC, China is absolutely doomed.

and I dont think a comparison with any other country (outside of the US) would be interesting.....Iran??????? nothing compared to Russian strength, of course, once again, not even including nuclear. Turkey? impresive, but not even close to RF forces.

[eugenlitwin]

yes, Russia can be compared to China, militarly. Russia has plenty of means at it disposal to wipe out conventional Chinese forces, now ever many they number. Infantry numbers mean only so much. In terms of actual effective equipment, Russia has the edge in quality or quantity. of course, if it goes NBC, China is absolutely doomed.

and I dont think a comparison with any other country (outside of the US) would be interesting.....Iran??????? nothing compared to Russian strength, of course, once again, not even including nuclear. Turkey? impresive, but not even close to RF forces.

Topic is not just military face off, we can discus other aspects of possible confrontation as well

[Flamming_Python]

Russia has the edge in quality or quantity. of course, if it goes NBC, China is absolutely doomed.

and I dont think a comparison with any other country (outside of the US) would be interesting.....Iran??????? nothing compared to Russian strength, of course, once again, not even including nuclear. Turkey? impresive, but not even close to RF forces.

Russia STRONG! Plastered all over. Let's put in one of those battle bear pictures for good measure :D

Russia will win any conventional war on its own territory especially, but HalfPolish is right in a way, Russia will have to sacrfice manpower that is all the more valuable these days. When the battles are done and dusted, the victory would come at a huge price that could cripple Russia with the current demographic situation taken into account.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

Russia STRONG! Plastered all over. Let's put in one of those battle bear pictures for good measure :D

Russia will win any conventional war on its own territory especially, but HalfPolish is right in a way, Russia will have to sacrfice manpower that is all the more valuable these days. When the battles are done and dusted, the victory would come at a huge price that could cripple Russia with the current demographic situation taken into account.

yeah im not russophobe bashing just taking into consideration the numbers...the chinese are a very powerful nation, and economically greater than russia

i guess the argument you could make is they're lacking in miltary technology, perhaps strategic missiles, obviously nukes (although i think they have deceiving numbers) and hardware (aircraft and armor)

however any war, just by shear loss of man/economic power would be absolutely utterly devastating for russia in terms of loss. russia just does not have the demographic power comparable with china. we could make an argument in favor of russia now (although it would still devastate mother russia) but in the near future chinese economic might will soon equal military might and they will be unstoppable.

the chinese GDP is around $8 trillion USD...the US GDP is around $12 trillion GDP, so you would be fool hearty to think that they are not the grand world power behind the US. there are very few countries with vast economic wealth on this planet that do not have powerful militaries, like the US, we are no different than russians we just have more money!

[Flamming_Python]

yeah im not russophobe bashing just taking into consideration the numbers...the chinese are a very powerful nation, and economically greater than russia

i guess the argument you could make is they're lacking in miltary technology, perhaps strategic missiles, obviously nukes (although i think they have deceiving numbers) and hardware (aircraft and armor)

however any war, just by shear loss of man/economic power would be absolutely utterly devastating for russia in terms of loss. russia just does not have the demographic power comparable with china. we could make an argument in favor of russia now (although it would still devastate mother russia) but in the near future chinese economic might will soon equal military might and they will be unstoppable.

the chinese GDP is around $8 trillion USD...the US GDP is around $12 trillion GDP, so you would be fool hearty to think that they are not the grand world power behind the US. there are very few countries with vast economic wealth on this planet that do not have powerful militaries, like the US, we are no different than russians we just have more money!

Russia has a defense pact with most of the ex-Soviet nations, so in case of war they will likely combine their forces and manpower with that of the Russians.

But then to repeat a since long-overdosedand****ounceddeadonthescene cliche, numbers aren't everything. Russia does have its own plan for development which is based on high-teching the whole place out. Sounds funny even to me to imagine a hi-tech Russia, but with any luck the economy can keep growing and growing due to increasing efficency. Russia's growth has not just been from increased investment, but rather from the very well managed sale and acquisition of it's own resources. It owns a massive pipeline system stretching all across Eurasia, and has within recent years acquired numerous other infastructures and assets all around the continent. Of course I am aware that China owns a lot more than Russia around the world, but it lacks control over key Eurasian infastructure and vital trades (for now at least), rather focusing its aquisitions on commericial business assets (or am I wrong here?), few of which are in Russia or the rest of the former USSR

China on the other hand, is highly dependent on foreign investment from corporations in other countries, and on natural resources of all kinds for its own industries, much of which it gets from Russia. In a war or even a seriously tense situation, both will dry up. It's most sophisticated weapon systems and arms are bought from Russian arnament industries, and while China does have a large domestic military-industrial complex, it lacks sophistication for now, and a great chunk of it's existing armed forces rely on agreements with Russia in order to continue to supply key components, spare parts and improvements/modernisations.

The oil which China will depend on in order for it's mechanized forces to advance largely comes from both Russia and the Middle East, with the later accounting for a larger percentage (although this is a trend that is changing due to the new pipeline). In any kind of conflict, the central asian oil will stop flowing for sure, and the oil from Persia and the Gulf can be sabotaged.

[Asheren]

You forget one thing they are much closer to your oil fields. If they hit hard you will have no luxury to step back like you had with Germans. Anyway most propably it would immediatly escalate to point of nuclear war that would devastate both sides. In the end both sides would end in yanks shadow and thei superpower status would be over. Something unacceptable for both nations. Just this one reason is important enough to make any consideration of china vs russia war dumb.

[Flamming_Python]

You forget one thing they are much closer to your oil fields. If they hit hard you will have no luxury to step back like you had with Germans. Anyway most propably it would immediatly escalate to point of nuclear war that would devastate both sides. In the end both sides would end in yanks shadow and thei superpower status would be over. Something unacceptable for both nations. Just this one reason is important enough to make any consideration of china vs russia war dumb.

Russia's oil fields are all around the place, but the majority of developed ones that produce are in Western Siberia AFAIK. So the Chinese will have a long way to go...

I agree with the rest of your post, and it is quite true that Russia vs. China will not happen while there are other contendors around that may benefit from a war of that magnitude. So hopefully never then. p-)

[TR1]

Russia STRONG! Plastered all over. Let's put in one of those battle bear pictures for good measure :D

Russia will win any conventional war on its own territory especially, but HalfPolish is right in a way, Russia will have to sacrfice manpower that is all the more valuable these days. When the battles are done and dusted, the victory would come at a huge price that could cripple Russia with the current demographic situation taken into account.

ummm, no not Russia strong, but reality. i am not going to understate Russia's advantages over China............simply because of MP.nets obsession with ingorance regarding Russian military strength.

[STIG]

if (China declares war on Russia)
{
China gets turned into a parking lot;
}
else if (Russia declares war on China)
{
China gets turned into a parking lot;
}

[TR1]

if (China declares war on Russia)
{
China gets turned into a parking lot;
}
else if (Russia declares war on China)
{
China gets turned into a parking lot;
}

finally, someone sees the truth/.

[STIG]

finally, someone sees the truth/.

Long time no see pieboy..whats up?

[Onslaught]

if (China declares war on Russia)
{
China gets turned into a parking lot;
}
else if (Russia declares war on China)
{
China gets turned into a parking lot;
}

Simple as that.

[kogyi_99]

Hmm..

China Vs. Russia

China Vs. India

China Vs. USA

China Vs. Japan

and so on.. what else then? China vs. Fiji?

Make me wonder why you people are so obsessed with that imaginary war on china against other world powers. What a waste of time. We all know that china is strong compares to ordinary countries but among the world powers they are the least strongest. So stop all that nonsense and don't waste your time.

Everytime I read thread like this, it's all the same.. how china will lose..how much chinamen will die.. how much less nuclear weapon china possess than others.. how china will become parking lot, etc..
it maybe true but this is getting old and totally silly IMO..

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

well i guess i'll have to agree to disagree...

however if there is a future asian war this could be one of the more popular "what if's" along with the korean peninsula and india v. pakistan, so its kind of interesting to debate.

i would assume that a war b/n china and russia would be quick and brutal. if drawn out though i would have to put the favor towards russia. if it went nuke then we all know who would win that war.

[9mmRifle]

Well the Japanese seemed to subdue them in 1936 pretty good.


No they didn't, Japan even though it had a mighty military machine fighting impoverised chinese, and massacring civilians like Hitler did the Japanese still only managed to control a few costal Chinese cities and N.E Manchuria, the vast areas of China remained rebel territory. That's why the US and China were buddies during WW2 and Chinese used to even rescue downed US pilots.

[CPL Trevoga]

China and Russia, despite being close neighbors had very few conflicts and you could say they have pretty good relationship. Nuclear war Russia vs China would probably turn the whole world into a iced covered parking lot.

I'd say that we all should learn English for now, but learning Chinese is very beneficial. Russians I know, who speak Chinese do quite well.

[Kilgor]

I do find it interesting that Russia keeps its T-90 fleet in siberia.

[bigjeff]

Well actually china got most of its military equipment from russia,which mostly r not the newest models.

[TR1]

I do find it interesting that Russia keeps its T-90 fleet in siberia.
this is true. most of the T-90s, BMP-3s, BTR-90s and other new equipment, including Ka-50 choppers has gone to units in the far east.

[eugenlitwin]

Russia pursues its destiny in the great northeast

LOOK EAST
Bill Sharp

OFTEN confused with Siberia, the Russian Far East (Dalny Vostok Rossii, in Russian) lies in between Siberia and Russia's Pacific coast, forming the northeastern corner of Asia. The taiga-, tundra- and farmland-dominated RFE constitutes one-third of Russia's total land mass. With a population of 7 million, representing more than 25 ethnicities, the population density of one-plus person per square kilometer is one of the lowest in the world.
http://starbulletin.com/2006/08/13/editorial/artsharp.jpgReminiscent of American westward expansion, the conquest of Siberia and the RFE is graphically portrayed in a telling painting in the Russian Museum in St. Petersburg depicting a Cossack officer brandishing his gleaming saber as he unmercifully cuts down a resisting native. Leading Russia's manifest destiny eastward of the Ural Mountains were hunters, trappers, runaway serfs and criminals who established small encampments and villages of ethnic Russians that soon began to multiply as the market for fur in European Russia grew.
Territorial expansion led to more territorial expansion at others' expense.
In 1689 the first of what Chinese call the "unequal treaties," the Treaty of Nerchinsk, was signed with the weak Ching Dynasty ruling China, resulting in the loss of Outer Manchuria to Russia. From 1856 to 1857, Russia seized Chinese territory north of the Amur River (Heilongjiang in Chinese). A painting in the Khabarovsk Regional History Museum strikingly illustrates the signing of the Treaty of Aigun in 1858 between overly confident Russian Empire builder Count Nikolai Muravyov and a demure Ching Dynasty official. In 1860 all land east of the Ussuri River was ceded to Russia, thus extending Russia from the Baltic to the Pacific. As the Trans-Siberian Railroad continued expanding to hold European and Asian Russia together, more and more Russians transplanted themselves in the RFE.
http://starbulletin.com/2006/08/13/editorial/special2.html

PS
In May 2006, China completed construction on the Three Gorges Dam, the largest hydroelectric dam in the world. More than a million people will be displaced when the area is flooded. In July 2006, China opened a $4.2-billion, 710-mile-long railway from Qinghai Province to the Tibetan capital of Lhasa. The highest railway in the world, it ascends as high as 16,500 ft, requiring all compartments to have regulated oxygen levels. The railway will increase ethnic Chinese migration into Tibet, which many see as a deliberate attempt to dilute Tibetan culture.

[Universe]

hmm thats pitiful that Germany is being overtaken by India on the globalfirepower website.

[Saranof]

Yes, we must fight back against the onslaught of the telemarketers!

[Onslaught]

hmm thats pitiful that Germany is being overtaken by India on the globalfirepower website.

Who would have thought that, half a century ago? Hard to believe...

[TR1]

Yes, we must fight back against the onslaught of the telemarketers!
lol.......India surpassing Germany, not yet at least.

[Universe]

definitely not in quality of Military technology maybe in manpower.

[TR1]

definitely not in quality of Military technology maybe in manpower.

manpower, certainly. but manpower isnt everything.

[Universe]

You need both manpower and quality to win wars and maybe a few nukes if ure desperate.

[Saranof]

Earning your title well I see?

[Mastermind]

There are other statistics that I think are important... population density and distribution, food imports and exports, farm land and food production. All the military posturing in the world won't do you any good without food or (in modern warfare terms) a poor population distribution with limited numbers of very isolated high population densities. A great number of China's people are totally agrarian and hardly skilled at the things that make a modern society work. Another huge number are located in terribly dense population centers that are struggling for resources. Also, china is still grasping for self sufficiency in food production with good farm land at a premium. Russia has a well educated middle class, large numbers of moderate population densites (well distributed) and vast areas of productive farm land and a distribution system that is adequate. China is still struggling with proper infrastructure and communications.

With her advantage in nuclear weapons, should china ever force Russia into a desperate or even seemingly despearate situation militarily, there will be no question of occupying China...it will quickly be made uninhabitable.

No...China and Russia are going to continue to be life long non-warrior neighbors unless someone completely loses a mind.MM

[Kilgor]

this is true. most of the T-90s, BMP-3s, BTR-90s and other new equipment, including Ka-50 choppers has gone to units in the far east.

Of course, I dont blame Russian mistrust of "europe" as it has been invaded numerous times from the west. However, chinas rise to super power status will complicate matters. This does not mean china will attack russia, however it would be foolish not to keep a eye on them. Basing advanced new equipment in the east is a military reality of the emerging chinese military complex.

btw, i think that site that compares the worlds military based on sheer numbers isnt worth a pound of horse turd.

[chidozie]

CHINA STRONG!!!..even though russian might have more nukes, when it comes down to it how many nukes do u really need to demolish a countries infastructure...about 60. a missle deffence system can only hit so many nukes. and i think america will come to the aide of russia b/c china is more of an economic threat..

[Flamming_Python]

Of course, I dont blame Russian mistrust of "europe" as it has been invaded numerous times from the west. However, chinas rise to super power status will complicate matters. This does not mean china will attack russia, however it would be foolish not to keep a eye on them. Basing advanced new equipment in the east is a military reality of the emerging chinese military complex.

btw, i think that site that compares the worlds military based on sheer numbers isnt worth a pound of horse turd.

Kilgor I never thought that I would be able to agree with you on even ONE thing, much less a whole post! :)


CHINA STRONG!!!..even though russian might have more nukes, when it comes down to it how many nukes do u really need to demolish a countries infastructure...about 60. a missle deffence system can only hit so many nukes. and i think america will come to the aide of russia b/c china is more of an economic threat..

And you can be sure that Russia will retaliate with 6000, making a full-scale attack pointless. However there may well be border battles, proxy wars and regional or seperatist conflicts that one or the other side will support if the relations ever deteriorate to that point.

[I'mOnlyHalfPolish]

i guess my thinking always goes this way...for every one russian life there are 13 chinese (roughly)...however i think the russians have some strategic advantages and disadvantages (like the size of their country, good and bad) etc...anyhow i still think the chinese will soon dwarf the russians and even the russians at their greatest military power during the soviet times.

[fuzzyramirez]

All that info. is available in detail at:
www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

[9mmRifle]

lol.......India surpassing Germany, not yet at least.
According to 'Strategypage' they are
LOL
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2004617.asp
Top Ten By Combat Power
United States
China
Israel
India
Russia

[Noble713]

According to 'Strategypage' they are
LOL
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2004617.asp
Top Ten By Combat Power
United States
China
Israel
India
Russia

Damn, where is that giant blue "WHAT THE FVCK" smiley when I need it.....

[Smersh]

Damn, where is that giant blue "WHAT THE FVCK" smiley when I need it.....
this is completely ridicilous. whats with these stupid "combat power" comparisons.

[TR1]

btw, i think that site that compares the worlds military based on sheer numbers isnt worth a pound of horse turd.
yep. and as we can see strategy page isnt worth a look either, dumb numbers mean nothing....especially when the numbers are wrong.

[Mastermind]

There really are other factors. One I like is the "Willingness" factor. You can have all the military power ten times over, nukes, super aircraft carriers, nuclear subs, rockets, bombers, fantastic satellite weapons, robotic fighters and tanks...and they are not worth the asphalt they are parked on or the water they float in if the nation that has them is unwilling to use them. Think U.S.A.!

[Sergei]

If you want a close example of what Sino-Russian war would look like, take a look at the incident at Damanskiy Island. 3000 invading Chinese troops cut down by "Grad" salvo then bulldozers drove the bodies to the Chinese territory.
That killed the chinese desire for some land grab.
Khrushev was a stupid ukrainian but he never took **** from anybody.

[Mastermind]

^And that is really the way wars should be fought...That kind of thing tells the enemy all they need to know about your willingness to join battle and exactly what you think of them.

Had it been the USA, we would have given up the land rather than resort to all that sordid "murder"; Paid compensation to the enemy families for their loss; Put all the GI's on trial who had even thought about discharging their weapons; We would have first used "non-lethal" means...such as tear gas and rubber bullets; If we had had to resort to actual deadly means, we would have made sure our projectiles were environmentally friendly; We would have used pinpoint guided munitions that would have cost 3.5 million each for every enemy dead (must avoid collateral damage); If we had taken any dead (almost certainly from "friendly fire"), we would have posted protestors along their funeral paths and called them "Murderers" and "Baby Killers"; Congress, in the aftermath, would have passed a resoultion titled, "Never Again!"; Had we actually been successful at defending our territory and the effort had resulted in tens of enemy dead, San Francisco and Seattle would have seceeded from the Union in protest. Of course, we would then immediately apologize to the invading nation and give them "Most Favored Nation" trading status.MM

[Universe]

Wasn't the Demansky island called "Jin Baw Waw" by the Chinese ?

[DeltaWhisky58]

Do not open any more of these "What if" threads - failure to comply will result in infractions.