Is this the begining of the end of the F-22?

[vmpsmII]

From Yahoo! news:



U.S. Fighter Jet Could Die to Help Fund War

WASHINGTON (*******) - The Pentagon (news - web sites) may have to scrap its premier fighter jet program to help pay for the war in Iraq (news - web sites), Sen. John McCain, an influential member of the Armed Services Committee, said on Sunday.

"It's obvious that we're paying a heavy price, I think, for not having had enough troops there from the beginning," the Arizona Republican said on NBC's "Meet the Press."

McCain said both the U.S. Army and the Marine Corps must be expanded overall, a position at odds with President Bush (news - web sites)'s administration. The United States has about 135,000 troops in Iraq, a number that McCain, an influential member of the Armed Services Committee, said must rise.

As part of a broad overhaul of U.S. priorities, he said, the Pentagon may have to scrap the $71 billion Air Force program to buy F/A-22 air-to-air fighters built by Lockheed Martin Corp. .

"We may have to cancel this airplane that's going to cost between $250 million and $300 million a copy," said McCain, floating what could become a major new legislative hurdle to a top Air Force priority.

McCain led a drive that stalled what has become a $23.5 billion plan to lease up to 20 and buy up to 80 modified Boeing Co. 767s as mid-air refueling tankers. The plan is on hold pending reviews due next month at the Pentagon.

"We've got to change the way we do business and put the priority where it belongs," McCain said. "And that is making sure that we succeed in Iraq."

Republican Sen. Pat Roberts of Kansas, chairman of the Intelligence committee, said the United States needed more specially trained forces in Iraq.

"People that are in there have to know what the heck we're doing," Roberts said on the CBS program Face the Nation. "If we do have those troops, yes, let's send them."

The Air Force hopes to buy at least 277 F/A-22 fighters, which it describes as key to dominating the skies in future combat. It is about to enter operational testing en route to replacing the F-15C.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has resisted calls for any lasting increase in the U.S. occupation force in Iraq and argued against permanently boosting the size of U.S. armed forces unless sought by military commanders themselves.

Last week, Rumsfeld said the Pentagon may postpone the departure of some troops supposed to be heading home now. The Pentagon originally had planned to decrease the numbers to about 115,000 in coming months.

[memphiz]

that sucks

[mustamato]

Hm. A lot of flyboys that won´t vote for Bush then I guess.

[Brozozo]

F-22 is a useful program. Why scrap that? I'm sure DoD is spending money on something stupider like a new mousetrap or tactical snowboard, save money and scrap those.

[Joshisonfire]

Make sense. Troops in Iraq need more other urgent things. Reinvest in the program once the war is done and over with.

[Seoulstriker]

whenever soldiers die in combat, people talk about increasing troop numbers and cancelling programs. this will just blow over.

[memphiz]

F-22 is a useful program. Why scrap that? I'm sure DoD is spending money on something stupider like a new mousetrap or tactical snowboard, save money and scrap those.
a tactical snowboard would be cool though

[venture160]

i dont really see the need for it, cheaper planes like the JSF are just as capable and would still preserve our lead in aerospace technology. I'd rather take the gobloads of money and use it on the war on terrorism and Iraq, as well as unmanned fighters and bombers

[Obergefreiter]

I think that is part of the arguement. Does the Air Force need this plane or the JSF.

Since this aircraft is farther mor advanced and developed than the JSF, I think this will blow over.

There is no urgent need for the aircraft now, but if you wait until you need it, it is too late.

[Obergefreiter]

I think that is part of the arguement. Does the Air Force need this plane or the JSF.

Since this aircraft is farther mor advanced and developed than the JSF, I think this will blow over.

There is no urgent need for the aircraft now, but if you wait until you need it, it is too late.

[venture160]

I truly believe the F-22 is a relic of the cold war, we wont be fighting advanced nations for a long time to come, and when that time comes, the F-22 will be outdated.

[HELEX]

Seems that the Eurofighter will be the King of the Sky next few years...

[mustamato]

Yeah, it´s not like the F-15C could be described as "obsolete" when fighting
countries like Afghanistan and Iraq, and possibly countries like Syria, Iran and North
Korea. Well even against, say France, they could not be called "obsolete" even
though the Frenchies would shoot them down to some extenth.


Seems that the Eurofighter will be the King of the Sky next few years...

I guess the most modern Flankers are capable of kicking butt as well, as shown
by the American F-15 vs Indian Flankers a couple of months ago. Plus that they
are beautiful, so they will atleast dominate the beauty contests. Add to it that the
Russians also have Su-37, however I´m not sure about how it´s going with that,
I guess the Russians lack money as well.

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/su-27-02l.jpg
Good old Su-37...

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Current/Su-30/Su-30d.jpg
Atleast the Su-27/30 is in use already, here with
four R-27RE1 and six R-73RDM2 air-to-air missiles.

[HELEX]

Yes, the Flanker is a true Beauty.... :D

But next generation modern figter platforms will be unmanned, so no cool fighter Pilots in future or only a few for Missions which unmanned Platforms are not able to do.

[MaDuce]

Unmaned fighter jets.....A Air Force nerds dream.
Old fly boy: Im my day I could do all kinds of tricks and I shot down 10 enemy fighters
New fly boy: I R teh l337 h@x0r fighTer pioliot wh0 could pWn j00.

[Merik]

Seems that the Eurofighter will be the King of the Sky next few years...


A F-15 can kick a EuroFighter's ass. So can a Sukhoi-27, 33, 35, 37.

As for the JSF, I read a interesting letter from a guy that is working on the program and he said its a piece of junk. Its waaay to overweight and over budget. The concept was really good he wrote, but was the corporations really started to get into it they made a lot of changes and that included a pot load of more money than they needed.

I agree with Seoul on the F/A-22 part also. This will surely blow over because they already have invested way too much in it to drop it now.

[Commander Cool]

This is BS, the F-22 is not gonna get scrapped, and McCain is an idiot, I don't even know why he calls himself a Republican, he acts like a Dem.

You guys don't understand that the F-22 is not just a plane, it is part of an entire offensive package, and the parts of this package depend on each other. For example, the JSF was not designed to go into battle alone, but in cooperation with other systems, one of which is the F-22. Therefore scapping the F-22 would make the JSF much less capable since the funcitons that the JSF depends on the F-22 for would not be possible. And besides, the F-22 is already wired into our budget for the future and it is nearing its completion, it would make absolutely no sense from an economic point of view to scrap the F-22.

And the F-15 cannot kick the EF's ass, the F-15 is a 25 yr old airframe and while its avionics are slightly newer, the EF2000 is an entirely new plane, incorporating new technology from scratch. I would say that the Eurofighter is 75% as capable as the F-22, and so is the French Rafale.

And while you guys are saying the F-22 is a "cold war relic", Russia, China and India are all developing 5th generation fighter planes (PAK-FA, J-12 and MCA).

[venture160]

I agree with Seoul on the F/A-22 part also. This will surely blow over because they already have invested way too much in it to drop it now.

we said the same thing about the commanche, seriously stop being blind about the future, what do we honestly need the F-22 for, someone present me a good, solid argument, other than it "kicks ass"

[AFACadet]

0% chance of that happening. The last post (while with some errors) is by far the most accurate.

[Kitsune]

A F-15 can kick a EuroFighter's ass. So can a Sukhoi-27, 33, 35, 37.



Hardly. The Typhoon is much more more advanced and superior. Only F22 can match it.
But Essentially the Raptors problem is the same of the Typhoon...It is an extremely expensive child of the cold war, not what is needed most.
But the US with their military welfare state can afford this prestige project. I doubt the F22 will be scrapped.

[wyrm_142]

Losing the F/A-22 very well could happen due to a prolonged conflict in Iraq.

Look at the shoddy state of the US military post Vietnam. Yes, part of that was due to social issues, but the fiscal cost also limited improvements to the fighting forces.

We'll end up with the F/A-22 or the JSF, not both.

[AFACadet]

Yes, both (does not matter if you look at the military, political, or internationally).


Either way though, the USAF has clearly stated that we would drop the JSF in a heartbeat if it meant saving the Raptor.


The Raptor is simply that important to the future of US military operations.


You can't plan for the future if you ONLY look at the past couple of years.

[Va_Dinger]

$250-$300 million a piece?

[Kilgor]

no way would they scrap the program this far into development.

Its just scaremongering.

the f22 will soon take over the 15 as the king of the sky

[AFACadet]

$250-$300 million a piece?


True price: 95 to an absolute worst case of 150 a piece. A far cry from the above quoted price.


Expensive? You bet--its the Raptors main weakness.



Worth it? Absolutly.


The Raptor is the only aircraft that can take out SA-12s and SA-20s quickly, safely, and with little risk. For those of you who don't know what those are, those weapons could tear right through the US Navy, Marine, and Air Force aircraft with the possible exception of the B-2.

So, how does that impact the rest of the military? Ask the Israelies when they first came into contact with the Egyption SAM umbrellas. They almost lost the war because of it (and only won after they figured out how to defeat it).

[budanski]

What this idiot (McCain) doesnt realize is that the cost for the development of the Raptor is already spent. Someone please notify the great senator that 12 have already been delivered with more to come.

Raptor is just one part of a complete battle package. "Eurofighter vs. Raptor" is mute.

[HELEX]

A F-15 can kick a EuroFighter's ass. So can a Sukhoi-27, 33, 35, 37.

No, the layout of SU-37 is old. The Eurofighter is more agile(Even better than Su-37 with thrust vectoring....), faster, has better radar and FLIR and is more "stealthy". The missiles are much more sophisticated(Ramjet) and have longer range.

And just one simple question: How many Su-33,35 and 37 has russia? The Su-37 is just a Prototype which tingles from Airshow to Airshow.... :lol:

Just compare cockpit layout:

Eurofighter

http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/cockpit_DSCN2056.jpg

Su-37

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/su37/images/su-37_7.jpg

[Merik]

Ok HELEX, we'll see. Whenever a Sukhoi and a Eurofighter go up against each other, dont come crying back to me.

[mustamato]

Just compare cockpit layout:

Eurofighter

http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/cockpit_DSCN2056.jpg

Su-37

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/su37/images/su-37_7.jpg

I don´t now much about modern fighters, but hm, that´s a small HUD to be
a new jet, on the Su-37. Compared to in example Swedish Gripen´s:

http://imagebase.saab.se/ibsaab/file/saab/Dig0/Dig024004_GI/low/Dig024004_GI.jpg

http://imagebase.saab.se/ibsaab/file/saab/F986/F98695/low/F98695.jpg
With Iris-T and Meteor missiles, ready to compete with the big boys.

[HELEX]

Ok HELEX, we'll see. Whenever a Sukhoi and a Eurofighter go up against each other, dont come crying back to me.

rofl

Can you tell me how many Su-33,35 and 37 Russia has or will have? p-)

[Russian Texan]

[quote]A F-15 can kick a EuroFighter's ass. So can a Sukhoi-27, 33, 35, 37.

No, the layout of SU-37 is old.
What do you mean by "layout"?

The Eurofighter is more agile(Even better than Su-37 with thrust vectoring....), faster
Oh really?!!! Darling, Su 37 is simply the MOST agile fighter jet ever, here are several vids for you to enjoy
http://www.ipilot.com/media/su-37-1.avi
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/rjc/videos/su37%5B01%5D.mpeg
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/rjc/videos/su37%5B02%5D.jpg
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/whispers/documents/super_flenker.mpeg
Can Eurofighter perform "Cobra", 720 degree turn without loss of altitude? Video please

has better radar and FLIR and is more "stealthy". The missiles are much more sophisticated(Ramjet) and have longer range.
Are you sure? Comparative data please...
Do you have any facts to back up your statement or is it another "European Tiger is the best attack chopper" argument by you filled with emotions and low on facts and data?


And just one simple question: How many Su-33,35 and 37 has russia?
More than Europe has Eurofighters rofl rofl rofl

F 22 outshines Eurofighter in electronics package while Su beats it in aerial performance, cost of maintence and price.

If you are going to argue, please provide data and sources, otherwise go away...

[Russian Texan]

[quote="mustamato"]
I don´t now much about modern fighters, but hm, that´s a small HUD to be
a new jet, on the Su-37. Compared to in example Swedish Gripen´s:

Well duh... 90% of your countryman wear glasses.....
You need larger screen to be able to see anything.
:roll:

[UkrainianAmerican]

EUROFIGHTER- the choice of a true gomosek.

[Merik]

[quote]A F-15 can kick a EuroFighter's ass. So can a Sukhoi-27, 33, 35, 37.

No, the layout of SU-37 is old.
What do you mean by "layout"?

The Eurofighter is more agile(Even better than Su-37 with thrust vectoring....), faster
Oh really?!!! Darling, Su 37 is simply the MOST agile fighter jet ever, here are several vids for you to enjoy
http://www.ipilot.com/media/su-37-1.avi
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/rjc/videos/su37%5B01%5D.mpeg
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/rjc/videos/su37%5B02%5D.jpg
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/politics/whispers/documents/super_flenker.mpeg
Can Eurofighter perform "Cobra", 720 degree turn without loss of altitude? Video please

has better radar and FLIR and is more "stealthy". The missiles are much more sophisticated(Ramjet) and have longer range.
Are you sure? Comparative data please...
Do you have any facts to back up your statement or is it another "European Tiger is the best attack chopper" argument by you filled with emotions and low on facts and data?


And just one simple question: How many Su-33,35 and 37 has russia?
More than Europe has Eurofighters rofl rofl rofl

F 22 outshines Eurofighter in electronics package while Su beats it in aerial performance, cost of maintence and price.

If you are going to argue, please provide data and sources, otherwise go away...


Thanks RT. p-)

[Brozozo]

What's the current fighter/interceptor being used by the Russian air force right now? Is it still the MiG-29?

[HELEX]

What do you mean by "layout"?

Used material and aerodynamic configuration. Eurofighter is designed for agility, and you know you wont find any exact data in net about turnrate of Su-37 or Eurofighter. And the shown manuevers uf the Suchoi are totally useless in modern aerial combat.

Some Videos:

http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/eurofighter-ila2002-berlin.rm

http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/thefutureofairpower.rm

http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/eurofighter_01.ram

http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/eurofighter_02.ram

http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/eurofighter_03.ram


has better radar and FLIR and is more "stealthy". The missiles are much more sophisticated(Ramjet) and have longer range.
Are you sure? Comparative data please...
Do you have any facts to back up your statement or is it another "European Tiger is the best attack chopper" argument by you filled with emotions and low on facts and data?

Here is Data, can you give some about Su-37?:

http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/sensorik.htm


And just one simple question: How many Su-33,35 and 37 has russia?
More than Europe has Eurofighters

How many has russia? As far as I know only Prototypes... They can not afford them.
But Germany alone will have 180 Typhoon

And about maintenance, the experience with the MIG-29 has shown very short livespans of nearly every Part, they needed much maintenance...

Just gime me data to compare p-)

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/tech.html

[wyrm_142]

What's the current fighter/interceptor being used by the Russian air force right now? Is it still the MiG-29?

Su-27, in some mod form. The best flankers out there in operational service belong to the Indian Air Force. I'm talking total package, iron and pilots.

[Skaman]

Commance, f22, I suspect OICW or whatever it is, will come next. The US government is wise to scrap these money hogs.

[HELEX]

And Just for info, a Thrust Vectoring Control is available for the Eurofighter.

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/engines.html?switch#rigpics

And the system is far more sophisticatet... :roll:

[Russian Texan]

What do you mean by "layout"?

Used material and aerodynamic configuration.
Every airplane, for the last 100 years, had wings, tails and fuselage if that is what you mean..

Eurofighter is designed for agility,
So is Sukhoj...

and you know you wont find any exact data in net about turnrate of Su-37 or Eurofighter.
But I can looked at the videos of both and form my opinion about agility capabilities of both.

And the shown manuevers uf the Suchoi are totally useless in modern aerial combat.
But you are the one who emphasized agility point...
BTW, what maneuevers would be usefull in the modern day aerial combat?


Some Videos:

http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/eurofighter-ila2002-berlin.rm

http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/thefutureofairpower.rm

http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/eurofighter_01.ram

http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/eurofighter_02.ram

http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/eurofighter_03.ram
Not impressed, nothing special...


has better radar and FLIR and is more "stealthy". The missiles are much more sophisticated(Ramjet) and have longer range.
Are you sure? Comparative data please...
Do you have any facts to back up your statement or is it another "European Tiger is the best attack chopper" argument by you filled with emotions and low on facts and data?

Here is Data, can you give some about Su-37?:

http://www.airpower.at/flugzeuge/eurofighter/sensorik.htm
Well, you are the one who proclaimed Eurofighters superiority to anything in existence, so I presumed you are familiar with the data for both aircraft...or do you base "Eurofighters superiority" on the fact that you live in the country that has to buy them?



And just one simple question: How many Su-33,35 and 37 has russia?
More than Europe has Eurofighters

How many has russia? As far as I know only Prototypes...
You "know" wrong.

They can not afford them.
How do you know what Russia can and can't afford, the only people who know for sure are in the Russian government, the rest is pure speculation and guessing...

But Germany alone will have 180 Typhoon
Will have or already has?

They are already outperformed by existing aircraft and by the time they enter into service - they might be obsolete, sorry...
I can also say that Russia will have 1000 Su 37, get my point....?


And about maintenance, the experience with the MIG-29 has shown very short livespans of nearly every Part, they needed much maintenance...
Are you talking about that East German squadron of 20 year old Mig 29As?
Which car would require more maintance: with a 1000 miles on the odometer or with 1000000 miles?

Just gime me data to compare p-)
But you have already said that Eurofighter is better, so you have to have data for both, right?

Helex, you are not a serious/interesting person to talk to or argue with....
If I ever feel the need to talk/learn about aircraft, I'll talk to GazB or AFA cadet. I am sorry, but you posses neither knowledge nor credibility.

[AFACadet]

/disjointed post sorry, but I'm putting down what I see in sorta order to when I see them/


The Typhoon is significantly more agile than the Su-27 (or any other version).

The Typhoon is more maneuverable than the Su at high-speeds


The Su is more maneuverable than the Typhoon at low speeds
(note, if you didn't figure it out, there is a difference between agility and maneuverability).


Yes, many of the airshow demos of the Su do not show proper combat tactics. They show what the airframe can do (and it is very impressive), but many to most won't/can't be used in combat.

Either way, the age of ACM is dying out. The name of the game now is BVR and weapon, sensor range, and RCS is what's important now.


The Typhoon has a lower RCS (much lower from the front), than any Su version. Reason is of the much smaller size of the Typhoon and that the design was specifically made to be low RCS (once again, especially from the front). The Su-27 was designed at a time when RCS was not much of an issue and besides for glopping RAM like material on various spots (which hasn't happened), there is nothing anyone can really do to lower it.

Russia has no Su-37s (which either crashed or were converted back to Su-35s). There are a few Su-35s in service, but they are in the service of the Russian Knights.

Yes, the design of the Su-27 is old. I keep saying Su-27 because that's the basis of all Su versions. Its just like the F-15. Its getting old. You can upgrade the avionics of the Albino or Mud Hen as much as you want, but the airframe is still old.


The size of the HUD has less importance than many people think. How many of you have sat in front of a HUD with it turned on and saw what you can see? Sure, a bigger one is better, but its not a war winner.


I'm still undecided what I would rather take in a BVR fight, a Su-30 MKsomething or a Typhoon.

The Su has a much more powerful radar and longer ranged weapons (right now) and straight up longer range, but the Typhoon has a much lower RCS, more advanced avionics, and more capable newer generation radar. I would probably pick the Typhoon right now based on its overall avionics advantage and smaller RCS which are much more important than maneuverability at BVR ranges. WVR, its still a toss up (even more so when the ASRAAM come into service).

Yes, the Indians have by far the best Sus in service right now (Su-30 MKI)




EDIT: No the Typhoon does not have TVCs available now, nor will they be available for production aircraft (if ever) well into the future. The Typhoon will not match the Su with TVC at low speed manuverability until that happens.

[Russian Texan]

And Just for info, a Thrust Vectoring Control is available for the Eurofighter.
Available or is it going to be a standard package?
How many flights Eurofighter equiped with TVD made, video please.

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/engines.html?switch#rigpics

And the system is far more sophisticatet... :roll:
And you statement is based on ....?

Eurofigher with TVD is still a "future project" while Su 37 with TVD has flown at the '97 airshow....

[usa320]

cheaper planes like the JSF

From development to entering service, the JSF will cost far more than the F-22.

The need for the JSF has lessened as F-16's and A-10's are given new upgrades, and the F/A capability is added to the F-22.

If you ask me, keep upgrading the current fleet (which is more than capable) and add the F/A-22. Frankly, id be surprised if the F-35 enters service before 2025.

The B-52 began flying in 1952. It will still be flying in 2050. Theres no reason for A-10's and F-16's to be replaced by JSF's when they can get decades more use out of them and still have the best damn planes in the world.

If you ask me i think they should scrap the MV-22 before the F/A-22. At least its still in development. The F/A-22 is already entering service, so to scrap it now after a handful of planes are already in service would be stupid. A handful of ex- eagle drivers at Tyndall are already training on the 22 as we speak.

To be honest though im not sure how well they will do with the F-22. The F-22 is replacing a unit that flew the F-15A/C. That plane was made for AA combat only...intercept. It could carry some Mk82's, but thats about it for AG. Now these pilots, who have trained for air to air for their whole career not only need to get used to flying the new plane, but they need a crash course in AG combat now because of the F/A-22's attack capability, which is rather potent, carrying JDAMs and GBu-24's, with plans to add JSOWS. I think they should have selected F-15E and F-16C pilots to fly it first. This way they would have the AG training.

[usa320]

As for the competitors, id be shocked if the EF2000 and Rafael ever entered service in large numbers. There development has stretched for decades, burried under beaurocracy and budget woes.

The Su-30MK, the MiG-29M, The Su-34 and Su-37 are all great planes, but Russia just does not have the resources (capital) to build and operate a decent number of them.

[Russian Texan]

What's the current fighter/interceptor being used by the Russian air force right now? Is it still the MiG-29?

Both Mig and Su compliment each other.
Think F16 (Mig29) and F15 (Su27)

The dedicated interceptor is Mig 31.

[AFACadet]

[They should have selected the] F-16C pilots to fly it first.

Who told you they weren't?


EDIT: of course the first few weren't, but there are hundreds of slots left. F-16 pilots are high on the list for their side-stick, avionics, and dual-role experence.

[HELEX]

And Just for info, a Thrust Vectoring Control is available for the Eurofighter.
Available or is it going to be a standard package?
How many flights Eurofighter equiped with TVD made, video please.

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.net/Eurofighter/engines.html?switch#rigpics

And the system is far more sophisticatet... :roll:
And you statement is based on ....?

Eurofigher with TVD is still a "future project" while Su 37 with TVD has flown at the '97 airshow....



Just read it, the russian system is able to deflect up an down and as you can see in Video not very fast.


A further development of the Su-35 is the Su-37, the newest superagile fighter powered by engines with a thrust vector control system. The system is integrated with the remote control system of the aircraft. The engine nozzles deflect in pitch by 15 degree up and down with the aid of two couples of hydraulic jacks mounted on each engine. The angular rate of the nozzles is up to 30 degrees per second. The system permits deflection of the nozzles in the same and different directions.


But TVD:


These trials demonstrated full, 360° deflection angles of 23.5° with a slew rate (the rate at which the nozzle can be directed) of 110°/s and a side force generation of some 20kN (equal to approximately to one third of the total EJ200 baseline output).

So will you now finally answer my question: How many Su-33,35 aun 37 operates russia rofl

From Flymig.com:


Su-37 Prototypes have been built, but the aircraft has not entered production

And only 10 Prototypes of Su-35 have been built...(www.suchoj.com)

Nothing but a Paper tiger again :lol:

Typhoon is in full scale Production....

[AFACadet]

Once again, the TVC of the Typhoon are only in the test stage. It will be years (if ever) before they are put on real aircraft. Until that time (and once again, if ever), it does not matter if the TVCs have a 500 degree/second rate, if they don't have them installed, its meaningless. The Su will still have the advantage at various speeds because of that.

[HELEX]

The Su will still have the advantage at various speeds because of that.

They will have nothing, because its only 1 working Prototype....

[AFACadet]

Dude, the Su-30MKK and Su-30MKI are in FULL rate production. The MKIs have TVCs and the MKKs will be getting them soon...


Combined public total for all MKK and MKI versions are around 160 at least.

[usa320]

The one thing that will always put SU and MiG over American fighters is their ability to maintain, and operate stabily at high AOA. The American fighter that can operate at the highest AOA is the F/A-18E at 30 degrees angle of attack. Thats in a steep climb, and it would reduce speed and combat effectiveness. The Su-27 on the other hand can in certain circumstances excede 50 degrees angle of attack.

Really though, its a pointless argument, as Russia and the US will never do war, and planes will never have dogfights again. It will all be AMRAAMs and Archers.

[AFACadet]

No, the Raptor busted through all those barriers by a wide margin (both Russian and American). While the Raptor can't do a Cobra, it can pull higher AoAs (+60, -50), has 2/3 higher pitch rate (up to 60 degrees/second), and a higher sustained AoA (as in flying at that condition and speed for minutes or hours--same as the max AoA above). The airframe can also take unlimted AoAs, during flight condition (like the Su-37) and still function, but this will not be tested in flight since its useless to the Raptor.


EDIT: I'm not talking about the 90 to 120 degree AoAs during Cobras or related manuvers since those only happen for a second or two and the mass of the aircraft itself brings it through the maneuver.



I'll be one of the first to say these are also an airshow maneuvers. Looks pretty, and shows how great the airframe is, but #1 and #2 are worthless in combat.

[mustamato]

Well duh... 90% of your countryman wear glasses.....
You need larger screen to be able to see anything.

Seriously, I know that you Russians have problems with controlling yourself
and easily grab the bottle, but you shouldn´t write here when you are drunk.

[droopy]

F-22 is a useful program. Why scrap that? I'm sure DoD is spending money on something stupider like a new mousetrap or tactical snowboard, save money and scrap those.

Usefull for what you already have the best airforce in the world and none AF comes even close.
You have F-117,B-2,UAV`s armed with Hellfires and so on.
I would agree with that i would develop systems more appropriate for low intensity conflict.

[UkrainianAmerican]

Well duh... 90% of your countryman wear glasses.....
You need larger screen to be able to see anything.

Seriously, I know that you Russians have problems with controlling yourself
and easily grab the bottle, but you shouldn´t write here when you are drunk.
I think that has upset you. :petting:

[Yard Ape]

Since this aircraft is farther mor advanced and developed than the JSF, I think this will blow over.
You have F-117,B-2,UAV`s armed with Hellfires and so on. Moot arguments as the F-22 is designed as an Interceptor/Air Supremacy fighter. It is not a bomber/attack aircraft.



We'll end up with the F/A-22 or the JSF, not both.
Either way though, the USAF has clearly stated that we would drop the JSF in a heartbeat if it meant saving the Raptor.This would be bad. They serve opposite rolls and the JSF will likely be of more importance in future US conflicts.

[Ratamacue]

The JSF has more importance with the Navy and Marine Corps than the Air Force. The USAF would probably prefer to keep the Raptor alive than the JSF.

[Yard Ape]

I doubt the Army would like to see the Air Force drop the JSF in favour of the F-22.

[Merik]

You know the funny thing is that we are all arguing over these new aircraft and the "agility" when in modern air combat as of today it wont get you anywhere. The reason? All the aircraft being mentioned have mostly been designed for BVR and "look-down, shoot-down" capabilities. That way they are denieing(sp?) the enemy of getting in close for dog-fights.

[Ratamacue]

You know the funny thing is that we are all arguing over these new aircraft and the "agility" when in modern air combat as of today it wont get you anywhere. The reason? All the aircraft being mentioned have mostly been designed for BVR and "look-down, shoot-down" capabilities. That way they are denieing(sp?) the enemy of getting in close for dog-fights.

Obviously they still have it in mind though, because what happens if you DO get in a dogfight? The F/A-22 has been designed with thrust-vectoring specifically for that event, not just so it can do fancy moves in air shows. Also remember that a more agile aircraft is more able to evade a missile coming in on them. The best countermeasure isn't chaff nor flare, but rather doing the right movements at the right time in combination with chaff or flare.

[usa320]

doubt the Army would like to see the Air Force drop the JSF in favour of the F-22.

They would love it. THe reason being that would mean the replacement for the A-10 would get canned, forcing them to add new hardware to the hog, which is the soldiers best friend in the air.

The F/A-22 wont get cancelled. Maybe fewer will be produced, but cancelling the program would be pointless seeing as most the money has already been spent and several are already in service at Tyndall AFB.

[M1A2U2]

Hm. A lot of flyboys that won´t vote for Bush then I guess.



Hm. sorry mustamato but Bush has nothing to do with whether or not the f22 gets the boot. That is 100% up to congress. I dont mean to ruin your attempt to gather negative things about Bush but if anything, because john mcain is promoting this, this will be looked on by a favorable light for republicans. Learn something about US Gov before you open your mouth moron

[Yard Ape]

doubt the Army would like to see the Air Force drop the JSF in favour of the F-22.

They would love it. THe reason being that would mean the replacement for the A-10 would get canned, forcing them to add new hardware to the hog, which is the soldiers best friend in the air.But, it also means still living with the F-16, F-18, AV-8B . . .
Maybe it is a case for a renewed small USAAF.


The F/A-22 wont get cancelled. Maybe fewer will be produced, but cancelling the program would be pointless seeing as most the money has already been spent and several are already in service at Tyndall AFB.I know some other NATO countries contributed to the development. Have any expressed interest in buying the F-22?

[rob]

doubt the Army would like to see the Air Force drop the JSF in favour of the F-22.

They would love it. THe reason being that would mean the replacement for the A-10 would get canned, forcing them to add new hardware to the hog, which is the soldiers best friend in the air.But, it also means still living with the F-16, F-18, AV-8B . . .
Maybe it is a case for a renewed small USAAF.


The F/A-22 wont get cancelled. Maybe fewer will be produced, but cancelling the program would be pointless seeing as most the money has already been spent and several are already in service at Tyndall AFB.I know some other NATO countries contributed to the development. Have any expressed interest in buying the F-22?

i dont believe so. it is too expensive for most buyers(out side the us and china i dont think anyone would even consider it) and i dont think the us would be happy with letting other countries buy the plane that is supposed to give them control of the air.

[cold0]

/disjointed post sorry, but I'm putting down what I see in sorta order to when I see them/


The Typhoon is significantly more agile than the Su-27 (or any other version).

The Typhoon is more maneuverable than the Su at high-speeds


The Su is more maneuverable than the Typhoon at low speeds
(note, if you didn't figure it out, there is a difference between agility and maneuverability).




Yes, many of the airshow demos of the Su do not show proper combat tactics. They show what the airframe can do (and it is very impressive), but many to most won't/can't be used in combat.

Either way, the age of ACM is dying out. The name of the game now is BVR and weapon, sensor range, and RCS is what's important now.


The Typhoon has a lower RCS (much lower from the front), than any Su version. Reason is of the much smaller size of the Typhoon and that the design was specifically made to be low RCS (once again, especially from the front). The Su-27 was designed at a time when RCS was not much of an issue and besides for glopping RAM like material on various spots (which hasn't happened), there is nothing anyone can really do to lower it.

Russia has no Su-37s (which either crashed or were converted back to Su-35s). There are a few Su-35s in service, but they are in the service of the Russian Knights.

Yes, the design of the Su-27 is old. I keep saying Su-27 because that's the basis of all Su versions. Its just like the F-15. Its getting old. You can upgrade the avionics of the Albino or Mud Hen as much as you want, but the airframe is still old.


The size of the HUD has less importance than many people think. How many of you have sat in front of a HUD with it turned on and saw what you can see? Sure, a bigger one is better, but its not a war winner.


I'm still undecided what I would rather take in a BVR fight, a Su-30 MKsomething or a Typhoon.

The Su has a much more powerful radar and longer ranged weapons (right now) and straight up longer range, but the Typhoon has a much lower RCS, more advanced avionics, and more capable newer generation radar. I would probably pick the Typhoon right now based on its overall avionics advantage and smaller RCS which are much more important than maneuverability at BVR ranges. WVR, its still a toss up (even more so when the ASRAAM come into service).

Yes, the Indians have by far the best Sus in service right now (Su-30 MKI)




EDIT: No the Typhoon does not have TVCs available now, nor will they be available for production aircraft (if ever) well into the future. The Typhoon will not match the Su with TVC at low speed manuverability until that happens.

Good work AFAcadet :D ! At last, someone has technical knowledge in aircrafts matter!!! :D

[Thor]

They can not afford them.
How do you know what Russia can and can't afford, the only people who know for sure are in the Russian government, the rest is pure speculation and guessing...

Come on ms Russian Texan, everyone know that Russia is a poor ****hole country. I've been there, you can buy anything (including Russian Texan's mother and sister) for a few bucks.

[Russian Texan]

They can not afford them.
How do you know what Russia can and can't afford, the only people who know for sure are in the Russian government, the rest is pure speculation and guessing...

Come on ms Russian Texan, everyone know that Russia is a poor ****hole country. I've been there, you can buy anything (including Russian Texan's mother and sister) for a few bucks.

Well, I live in the US right now and can buy anything aswell...
So how about you give me a phone number of you mother and sister and we'll see if I can afford them?

My dear moron, I don't know when and where you have been to Russia, if you ever were there but there are plenty of places here in the US that look much worse than anything I have seen overthere, trust me...

If you feel like having a private "friendly" conversation or would like to relay to me phone numbers of you mother and sister - please PM me, lets keep this thread on topic.

[Thor]

They can not afford them.
How do you know what Russia can and can't afford, the only people who know for sure are in the Russian government, the rest is pure speculation and guessing...

Come on ms Russian Texan, everyone know that Russia is a poor ****hole country. I've been there, you can buy anything (including Russian Texan's mother and sister) for a few bucks.

Well, I live in the US right now and can buy anything aswell...

I think the fact that you don't oppose my description of your naitive country sayes it all.

[UkrainianAmerican]

They can not afford them.
How do you know what Russia can and can't afford, the only people who know for sure are in the Russian government, the rest is pure speculation and guessing...

Come on ms Russian Texan, everyone know that Russia is a poor ****hole country. I've been there, you can buy anything (including Russian Texan's mother and sister) for a few bucks.

Well, I live in the US right now and can buy anything aswell...

I think the fact that you don't oppose my description of your naitive country sayes it all.
I think the fact that you turn a discussion about airplanes, into PERSONAL attacks on on RT's mother and sister, says it all about your upbringing.
:bash:

[HELEX]

Russia is a developing country right now, it will need at least 50 years to recover from what communism did to your country and the mindset of its People.

If everything is fine, why did you move to the US?

[Russian Texan]

I think the fact that you don't oppose my description of your naitive country sayes it all.
Can you read between the lines?

I don't think that you have ever been in Russia or you would never wrote what you did....
What's a point of me opposing your description of my native country, is it going to change anything in Russia?

And I also think that the fact that you refuse to provide me with the contact information of your mother and sister says that they are butt ugly and you are ashemed of them...(see how it works...)