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Celareon
04-11-2004, 03:04 PM
For those that take the time to read this, I hope you find it at the very least, interesting. With all the friction between Europeans and Americans on this board, hopefully this will help.

Does the West still exist? For the past two years, the United States has been at war, but attempts to elevate America’s foe to a new common enemy has been largely divisive. Islamic fundamentalism, international terrorism and WMDs have not had the same unifying effect as yesterday’s soviet threat because Europe and the United States have increasingly differed on how to confront them.

America has adopted the foreign policy most akin to Germany in the late-nineteenth-century, placing dramatic displays of military might at the heart of its strategy. Europeans have behaved more like early-twentieth-century American idealists, advocating measured and principled foreign interventions. Even though Europeans and Americans have different interests, values and sensibilities, both sides still need one another and must work toward a new plan of action to tackle today’s issues.

It seems as if the United States has lost its cultural inferiority complex, the best universities in the world-the places where the brightest students from China, Japan, even Germany, want to go-are now in the United States. Today, in the eyes of many Americans, Europe is neither a subject nor an object of history; it has become a theme park, a museum, a charming place to visit and above all a growing source of irritation.

If the United States has not become an empire in the way that France and Britain were a century ago, an American imperial project of sorts has emerged, focused on the Middle East, and this project has become irksome to Europeans.

During the soviet years, both Europe and the US supported the Status quo against a revisionist Soviet Union, and now the US west is revisionist, while Europe’s west remained mired in introspection and is mistrustful of change.

It is as if, divided over its institutional and geographic future, Europe feels that it must exist as an alternative to the United States-a different and better west, seen in recent anti-war demonstrations the emergence of a European society that chooses to define itself negatively against the United States. Unlike anti-American sentiments in the past, this breed of anti-Americanism is not so much a reaction to what the United States does as a reaction to what it represents.

When French President Jacques Chirac spectacularly opposed the war in Iraq, while clearly not speaking in the name of most European governments, he was in tune with European public opinion.
It is all too easy for Washington to view Europe with indifference, yet the United States still badly needs Europe-although not for the reasons it thinks. Washington seems to view Europe as being somewhere between its deputy sheriff and its cleaning lady. “America fights, Europe funds, the UN feeds,” the thinking goes.

The United States needs Europe-and not just for its intelligence networks, sophisticated judicial systems, humanitarian efforts or police. Europe is the best protection the US has against its inner evils-its isolationism, its ignorance of the way others feel and think.
One of the first of these lessons –a particularly pertinent one for American administrators in Iraq-is that no power should ever define what is good for others without those people being involved.

Europe needs the United States at least as much. Europe should never solely rely on the US military machine, and it must have a credible military instrument it if wants to be taken seriously by Washington. But the not-so-secret dream of the French government to counterbalance US military power would be a nightmare for a majority of the governments in the new Europe of 25 member states.

It is unfortunate the popular anti-Americanism has been encouraged by some European Governments; as if the most conservative, ideological, religious, and nationalist elements of the Bush administration’s thinking were the only ideas found in the United States. The truth is that for many Europeans, America is still a land of opportunity, excellence and economic dynamism. A more balanced assessment, rather than today’s overwhelming negative caricature, is essential in constructing the new transatlantic partnership.

In building a new model of cooperation, Europe should learn from the United States’ ambition, and the United States form Europe’s modesty. Responsible revisionism-a better alternative to imperial revisionism-can only be achieved if Americans and Europeans start working and planning together.

The worst case-scenario would be for America’s west to turn into an oversized Prussia-bullying, brooding, and obsessed with military might-and Europe’s west into an oversized Switzerland-selfish and parochial, wrapped in neutrality. To avert this result, positive rather than negative, definition of transatlantic identity must be invoked by leaders on both continents. To this end, both sides together must lead the way in reforming the UN, so that it becomes an institution with teeth, genuinely respected by the international community.

In conclusion, both sides must make a determined effort to transcend their natural prejudices, overcoming petty inferiority or superiority complexes. Europeans must accept the United States’ unique international status and Americans must rediscover the virtues of modesty and self-restraint. Let us hope that the bitter rivalry witnessed in the aftermath of September 11, 2001, will go down as a temporary emotional rupture, rather than as the end of a constructive transatlantic partnership.

The previous “essay” was a hasty summary of an article I interpreted written by Dominique Moisi, senior adviser to the Institut Francais des Relations Internationales.

Discuss.

HELEX
04-11-2004, 04:34 PM
Its a good article, but...


Europeans must accept the United States’ unique international status and Americans must rediscover the virtues of modesty and self-restraint.

...Europe has to end this unique international Status. A balance of Power is needed.

Aussie E
04-11-2004, 05:50 PM
The only way to balance this power is economically. And in my opion it will be the billions of consumers in Asia that will be the balance, not Europe. Lennon (John, not the communist) once said that if you want to defeat Wall Street, don't bomb them, join them and defeat them from the inside. It's the only way the world will be able to slow the juggernaught that is the American economy, even with all the damage of the 9/11 attacks America's economy and technological might is one of if not the strongest in the world.

Celareon
04-11-2004, 05:59 PM
Entertain this for a moment, an expanded statement by the articles author:

Reconciling the international legal order with the reality of American hegemony will be difficult. Europe will have to accept that at times the revisionist instincts of the United States can be legitimate, that the world's status quo cannot simply be taken for granted.

"...The result might amount to something like the acceptance of two Monroe Doctrines, with the transatlantic partners each holding sway in interest. Europeans would concentrate on Europe, with a special emphasis on the Balkans and Mediterranean, and the United States would have priority in the Americas and Asia. Both west’s would support moderate leaders and promote the rule of law in their respective spheres of influence. They would collaborate in the Middle East, and the two sides would come together to develop a new strategy of intervention in Africa."

cut
04-11-2004, 06:28 PM
With France and Britain in europe, they are not likely to turn into a neutral place.

Korth
04-11-2004, 08:48 PM
Reconciling the international legal order with the reality of American hegemony will be difficult.

International legal order?

Law is force. So the international legal order is American law (for now) until a stronger power can impose its law on the world.

Korth
04-11-2004, 08:50 PM
The USA is only a Western country in that much of its population and culture came from Europe. But immigration and diversity is making it less and less of a Western nation (this is true for much of Europe too).

cut
04-11-2004, 08:50 PM
The fairer the law the least people you will have fighting the law.

Korth
04-11-2004, 08:51 PM
The fairer the law the least people you will have fighting the law.

Right and wrong is subjective. Different societies have different values. Of course the law with a few decades of social engineering can shape morality.

An example would be homo******ity. Not too long ago it was considered immoral behavior, but the social engineers and the laws are changing that.

Celareon
04-11-2004, 08:54 PM
"Ever wondered how many tanks, soldiers and fighters EU have?"

Within this thread are the kind of responses that i posted this article for.
The ignorant US vs. EU posts.

I'm trying to stay neutral here, but Europeans and Americans need to realize that we're the same. Our cultures are nearly identical due to globalization. Sure, there are distinct cultural differences, but for all intensive purposes our cultures are very, very similar.

Whether you want to admit it, Europe needs the US and will need them for the forseeable future, and I admit it, the US needs Europe as well, Unilateralism can't last for long, the government must realize that even the invincible US needs friends in the world.

The threat of an actual conflict between the EU and US is so indescribably small in my opinion, that its not even worth discussing.

Korth
04-11-2004, 08:57 PM
I think it is possible for the US to pull out of NATO and become more isolationist. They will continue to fight their enemies, but they will do so unilaterally.

cut
04-11-2004, 09:02 PM
The fairer the law the least people you will have fighting the law.

Right and wrong is subjective. Different societies have different values. Of course the law with a few decades of social engineering can shape morality.

An example would be homo******ity. Not too long ago it was considered immoral behavior, but the social engineers and the laws are changing that.

Of all states the US should be the best placed at making "international law" that doesn't piss other states off, I'm not suggesting going soft.

let me give you a relatively microcosm example, the "ten for two" laws in the US in the 60s or 70s, people would be sent to jail for ten years for having two joints on them, which is a very harsh penalty for such a crime, this has changed and now it's the drug dealers not the users that spent the long sentences in jail. That is because when "ten for two" there was more resistence to it then there is now, meaning that more people would protest against it causing more trouble then it was worth.


sorry I can't explain that better but, the more understanding the "international laws" administered by the US can be the lesser the strain or the problems in implementing the laws.

cut
04-11-2004, 09:04 PM
The threat of an actual conflict between the EU and US is so indescribably small in my opinion, that its not even worth discussing.

of course the conflict of opinion is blown out of proportion, but that's because it's new and unexpected.

Celareon
04-11-2004, 09:06 PM
"...possible for the US to pull out of NATO..."

Anything is possible, but the fact that the US just warmly welcomed what was it, 10? new nations into NATO, the chance of the US withdrawing from NATO is about the same as Andorra declaring war on france tommorow.

Korth
04-11-2004, 09:07 PM
What changed in the US durin the 1960's is that marijuana use became popular. In the 1970's it can even be said to have become mainstream.

This is why the ten for two laws became "unjust", these harsh penalties were considered fair when marijuana use was rare.

cut
04-11-2004, 09:13 PM
"...possible for the US to pull out of NATO..."

Anything is possible, but the fact that the US just warmly welcomed what was it, 10? new nations into NATO, the chance of the US withdrawing from NATO is about the same as Andorra declaring war on france tommorow.

The US only stands to gain from NATO, the EU wouldn't carry on NATO if the US left, that permanent alliance with the US is all the EU needs out of NATO.

Celareon
04-11-2004, 09:17 PM
are you so sure that the European Union would want, or even need NATO if the United States decided to withdraw?

France and Germany seem intent on making the EU a military force to be reckoned with outside of NATO, the US exerted considerable pressure during the negotiations with the EU over a seperate European military command structure, and in the end NATO remained the dominant military planning and organizing body in Europe, so if the US left, who would remain that would be powerful enough or have the interest in keeping NATO alive?

cut
04-12-2004, 01:10 PM
are you so sure that the European Union would want, or even need NATO if the United States decided to withdraw?

France and Germany seem intent on making the EU a military force to be reckoned with outside of NATO, the US exerted considerable pressure during the negotiations with the EU over a seperate European military command structure, and in the end NATO remained the dominant military planning and organizing body in Europe, so if the US left, who would remain that would be powerful enough or have the interest in keeping NATO alive?

No I don't think they would. It was a typo.