F-15 Strike Eagle

[MVSpartan117]

My freind was telling me about a incident when a IAF F-15 got in a mid-air collison with a another plane (possibly a Mig), the F-15 lost a wing and a managed to fly back to base. I was wondering if anyone knew where I could get pics of this?

Thanks in advance

[RuSoKaR]

any more info when and were this happend?

[IDFM203]

This I believe is the third or forth time since I have been on this forum that this has been asked and well every time I just repost my response to it (but hey I don’t mind this question being asked over and over again ;) )

I belive this is what you were looking for :D



F15 Wingless Landing

On May 1st. 1983, a dogfight training took place between two F-15D's and four A-4N Skyhawks over the skies of the Negev desert in Israel.

The F-15D (#957, nicknamed 'Markia Shchakim', 5 killmarks) was used for the training of a new pilot in the squadron. Here is the description of the event as described in "Pressure Suit": "

At some point I collided with one of the Skyhawks, at first I didn't realize it. I felt a big strike, and I thought we passed through the jet stream of one of the other aircraft. Before I could react, I saw the big fire ball created by the explosion of the Skyhawk.

The radio started to deliver calls saying that the Skyhawk pilot has ejected, and I understood that the fire ball was the Skyhawk, that exploded, and the pilot was ejected automatically. There was a tremendous fuel stream going out of the wing, and I understood it was badly damaged.

The aircraft flew without control in a strange spiral. I re-connected the electric control to the control surfaces, and slowly gained control of the aircraft until I was straight and level again. It was clear to me that I should eject. When I gained control I said :

"Hey, wait, don't eject yet!". No warning light was on and the navigation computer worked as usual; I just needed a warning light in my panel to indicate that I missed a wing..." The instructor ordered me to eject.

The wing is a fuel tank, and the fuel indicator showed 0.000 so I assumed that the jet stream sucked all the fuel out of the other tanks. However, I remembered that the valves operate only in one direction, so that I might have enough fuel to get to the nearest airfield and land. I worked like a machine, wasn't scared and didn't worry. All I knew was: as long as the sucker flies, I'm gonna stay inside. I started to decrease the airspeed, but at that point one wing was not enough.

So I went into a spin down and to the right. A second before I decided to eject, I pushed the throttle and lit the afterburner. I gained speed and thus got control of the aircraft again. Next thing I did was lowering the arresting hook.

A few seconds later I touched the runway at 260 knots, about twice the recommended speed, and called the tower to erect the emergency recovery net. The hook was torn away from the fuselage because of the high speed, but I managed to stop 10 meters before the net. I turned back to shake the hand of my instructor, who urged me to eject, and then I saw it for the first time - no wing

The IAF (Israeli Air Force) contacted McDonnell Douglas and asked for information about the possibility to land an F-15 with one wing . MD replied that this is aero-dynamically impossible, as confirmed by computer simulations... Then they received the photo.... After two months the same F-15 got a new wing and returned to action. This is what "Flight international, 8 June 1985" wrote about the incident:

"The most outstanding Eagle save was by a pilot from a foreign air force. During air combat training his two seater F-15 was involved in a mid-air collision with an A-4 Skyhawk. The A-4 crashed, and the Eagle lost its right wing from about 2ft. outboard. After some confusion between the instructor who said eject, and the student who outranked his instructor and said no, the F-15 was landed at its desert base. Touching down at 290 kt, the hook was dropped for an approach and engagement. This slowed the F-15 to 100 kt, when the hook weak link sheared, and the aircraft was then braked conventionally.

It is said that the student was later demoted for disobeying his instructor, then promoted for saving the aircraft. McDonnell Douglas attributes the saving of this aircraft to the amount of lift generated by the engine intake/body and "a hell of a good pilot" .
http://tailslide.firelight.dynip.com/images/F15Wing1.jpg
http://tailslide.firelight.dynip.com/images/F15Wing2.jpg
http://tailslide.firelight.dynip.com/f15wing.asp

shalom :D

[MVSpartan117]

Thanks!

[IDFM203]

Your welcome :D

[Brozozo]

Amazing story.

[Falco]

Wow woot

[mustamato]

I say yeah right.

http://www2.helsinginsanomat.fi/kuvat/uutiset/2001/11/09/20011109oyo2i.jpg
One day a pair of Hornets were flying, one of the Hornets wings smashed
into the other plane and the wing broke of...

... the plane without one wing didn´t fly back to base.

[born_to_kill]

Mustamato seriously what is up your ass?

You'r always arguing with people with your stupid european views, just because your pilots wouldnt be able to land a wingless F-15 doesnt mean ours cant

[Ratamacue]

It happened mustamato. I was watching a show on the History Channel on the F-15, and they interviewed the pilot AND showed the post-landing photo. Crazy ****.

[born_to_kill]

testing sig :-*$

[dumdidum]

@Mustamato

If you are refering to the same incident as IDFM203, you are out sailing. The plane was landed and put back into service.

@born_to_kill

Seriously what is up your ass?

You dont know **** about the quality of american pilots compared to that of european pilots. So stop does idiot comments. And I didnt see mustamato complain about the pilot. Did he?

[born_to_kill]

what hte hell are you talking about?? Israeli pilots have the most experience and are considered to be the best.. im not just saying this out of my ass, go talk to any pilot from any countrie and he'll tell you about israel

[mustamato]

Ah, so it did happen. Well, it sure looks strange with one wing missing though.


what hte hell are you talking about?? Israeli pilots have the most experience and are considered to be the best.. im not just saying this out of my ass, go talk to any pilot from any countrie and he'll tell you about israel

And how many of the current IDF pilots have been in real aerial combat?

[Saranof]

Mustamato seriously what is up your ass?

You'r always arguing with people with your stupid european views, just because your pilots wouldnt be able to land a wingless F-15 doesnt mean ours cant

Sigh..
Isn't it strange, that whenever anyone from europe says something contradicting something an israeli says, it's because he's a stupid european?
I mean, it's only the israelis who do this..
Not that I mean that ALL israelis do this but..
Just saying.. :|

[Javehn]

testing sig :-*$

Hey , knock this off , will you ? Behave like a normal person . This isn't kinderguarden .

Yeled, titnaheg kmo ben adam , lama nizhbar hazain mimha . Ata lo ose rak bushot leatsmeha , ata ose lekulanu , ok ?


Sigh..
Isn't it strange, that whenever anyone from europe says something contradicting something an israeli says, it's because he's a stupid european?
I mean, it's only the israelis who do this..
Not that I mean that ALL israelis do this but..


This is just a little kid , we also can have those you know . But you , please don't protect Mustamato , he is wrong this time (and many others) . He is from your country , but that is irrelevant here .

[mustamato]

testing sig :-*$

Hey , knock this off , will you ? Behave like a normal person . This isn't kinderguarden .

Yeled, titnaheg kmo ben adam , lama nizhbar hazain mimha . Ata lo ose rak bushot leatsmeha , ata ose lekulanu , ok ?

Oooh, are we having a black sheep among the Israelis here? Their own Vacon :P

[IDFM203]

Ah, so it did happen. Well, it sure looks strange with one wing missing though.
ahh I love it when you contest a factual thing (I have seen you do this before, with the same predictable results).

Even after I bring a photos with an accompanying article that mentions it from a few sources and not just Israeli, and yet you still dispute it, well it only makes you look more foolish then you already are (sorry but there is no other to say this after this foolish contention of yours)



And how many of the current IDF pilots have been in real aerial combat? :roll: wow :roll: as you know from the past I surly am capable in getting into this in greater detail.

I will try not to do that now, though for now I will limit my post to three short points

First, there ARE still current IAF pilots in service flying NOW that have flown in the 1982 war where the IAF had a 83 to 1 kill ratio.

nuff said!! but I will go on for two more points..... :D

Secondly no other air forces have been in much Arial dog fighting for years now.

Thirdly in mock dogfights on different occasions against the German, U.S and I believe the British air forces (though I cant remember where I read that so I am not 100 percent sure on the british part) in recent times, the IAF was dominant in its “wins” in all those exercises.

Shalom :D

[Dalleer]

Hell, I must be the black sheep of the Finns around here then...

[Saranof]

Sigh..
Isn't it strange, that whenever anyone from europe says something contradicting something an israeli says, it's because he's a stupid european?
I mean, it's only the israelis who do this..
Not that I mean that ALL israelis do this but..


This is just a little kid , we also can have those you know . But you , please don't protect Mustamato , he is wrong this time (and many others) . He is from your country , but that is irrelevant here .


Yeah, he was wrong here, but he admitted it :)
I just think it's a bit annoying that all the israelis seem to converge on anyone who has a different opinion

[born_to_kill]

javehn


Mah ani asiti?? lama atem korim le yeled? lama ata sam zine ma a stummim a elle hoshvim

[Javehn]

Yeah, he was wrong here, but he admitted it
I just think it's a bit annoying that all the israelis seem to converge on anyone who has a different opinion

There is a little difference , mate . We are at war , mostly for survival , for the last 56 years , so we can allow ourselfes to be a little bit touchy ;) . The only thing you should be touchy about , is the very spooky and disturbing article i read, about some strange "relationships" between animals , and several Sweden people ;) :| :| .

[born_to_kill]

and listen mustamato your horse ****er,

its not that israelis cant take opinions, feel free to say ur opinion i could care less. but when its a proven fact, not just by israel but by plenty of countries and u still deny something... thats when we "converge"

[cazorp]

And how many of the current IDF pilots have been in real aerial combat?

Good point, but they have a good situation awareness - and they put training and many flight-hours to their pilots..

I'd say none, or very few..

If they havent got old pilots since the Yom Kippur War against Egypt back in -73-74 still flying.. I mean, Lebanon war in -82 is like saying that the Coalition fought 'real' dog-fights agains iraqi pilots during the Gulf War.. (correct me if I'm wrong..)


(#957, nicknamed 'Markia Shchakim', 5 killmarks)

Is probably retaliation or preventory actions on lebanese/palestine ground targets to suspected terrorists..

[born_to_kill]

687 enemy airplanes have been shot down in dogfights since Israel`s birth. Only 23 Israeli planes have been shot down by enemy planes since 1948 - a statistic which puts the dogfight victory ratio between Israel and its Arab neighbors at a whopping 30:1.
18 enemy planes were shot down in dogfights in the 1948 War of Independence. A single Israeli plane may have been shot down in a dogfight over the Galilee, but the exact circumstances of its demise were never established in certainty.
Seven enemy planes were shot down in the course of the Sinai Campaign, without a single Israeli plane being shot down.
In the Six Day War, 60 enemy planes and 12 IAF planes were shot down.
The War of Attrition saw 111 enemy planes and four Israeli planes shot down.
277 enemy planes were shot down in the Yom Kippur War - accounting for over a third of the IAF`s total kills since 1948. Of the planes lost by the IAF in the war, only five were shot down in dogfights.
88 enemy planes were shot down in the Peace for Galilee Campaign. Not one Israeli plane was shot down in a dogfight.
126 enemy planes were shot down in dogfights in the years between the wars - most of them in the 70`s.
The IAF lost only two planes in dogfights between the wars, in 1959 and in 1964. The stories of the IAF aircraft`s first kills are here by presented to you.

[IDFM203]

If they havent got old pilots since the Yom Kippur War against Egypt back in -73-74 still flying.. I mean, Lebanon war in -82 is like saying that the Coalition fought 'real' dog-fights agains iraqi pilots during the Gulf War.. (correct me if I'm wrong..) .. Listen as my number 2 point hints to and which I will repeat, in that case no military since ww2 has really fought and has had a lot of success (or great ratios) against other top air forces.

Also the coalition didnt have too many dogfights to begin with to even mention what you mentioned.

In Lebanon, Syria had top soviet planes and they had better training then what the Iraqi pilots had now.

I think the 83 to 1 threshing by the IAF against them should be respected and not discounted at all or as you have done.

Anyways his point is not a good one for I repeat my three points.

“First, there ARE still current IAF pilots in service flying NOW that have flown in the 1982 war where the IAF had a 83 to 1 kill ratio.

nuff said!! but I will go on for two more points..... :D

Secondly no other air forces have been in much Arial dog fighting for years now.

Thirdly in mock dogfights on different occasions against the German, U.S and I believe the British air forces (though I cant remember where I read that so I am not 100 percent sure on the british part) in recent times, the IAF was dominant in its “wins” in all those exercises.




"(#957, nicknamed 'Markia Shchakim', 5 killmarks)"

Is probably retaliation or preventory actions on lebanese/palestine ground targets to suspected terrorists.. Worng!! As far as I know there is no kill markings for gound hits in the IAF.

Those are air to air kills and most probably in the 1982 war against Syrian migs

Shalom :D

[hey]

I also want to join the qeustion,

Why , mustamato , it's so hard for you to belive that this f-15 managed to land with one wing?

Are you an f-15 aeronauticts or aerodynamics expert?
on what basis you say "I say yeah right."

because you heard about two hornets that had a collison??


please explain yourself

[mustamato]

please explain yourself

Dumbass.

http://tailslide.firelight.dynip.com/images/F15Wing1.jpg

[cazorp]

In Lebanon, Syria had top soviet planes and they had better training then what the Iraqi pilots had now.

"top Soviet planes" - Fulcrums?



I think the 83 to 1 threshing by the IAF against them should be respected and not discounted at all or as you have done.

Well, The F-15C/D-versions has a kill ratio 95-0 so far.. ;)




nuff said!! but I will go on for two more points..... :D

Secondly no other air forces have been in much Arial dog fighting for years now.


I'd say Korea was the last major dog fighting war, or perhaps Vietnam.. since the introducion of the soviet flewn MiG-21, gave those Phantom-pilots something to work with atleast...



Thirdly in mock dogfights on different occasions against the German, U.S and I believe the British air forces (though I cant remember where I read that so I am not 100 percent sure on the british part) in recent times, the IAF was dominant in its “wins” in all those exercises.


No statistics for training with USAF/Marine fighters? I mean, Tornados and Jaguars are not so good to compare with if you can compare with nations with the equivalent gear..

[hey]

"Why , mustamato , it's so hard for you to belive that this f-15 managed to land with one wing?

Are you an f-15 aeronauticts or aerodynamics expert?
on what basis you say "I say yeah right."

because you heard about two hornets that had a collison??"




answer the f*cking question!!!

this picture is not an answer!

[Ngati Tumatauenga]

Mustamato wrote,

Dumbass.

Yes you are. But its amusing to watch you continually make a fool of yourself.


If they havent got old pilots since the Yom Kippur War against Egypt back in -73-74 still flying.. I mean, Lebanon war in -82 is like saying that the Coalition fought 'real' dog-fights agains iraqi pilots during the Gulf War.. (correct me if I'm wrong..)

I would have thought air combat was like any other sought. If some one is trained and armed then they are to be considered just as dangerous and capable as you are. No matter what country they come from. To think any other way would be ignorant and arrogant.




Is probably retaliation or preventory actions on lebanese/palestine ground targets to suspected terrorists..

Ignorant and arrogant.......

[AFACadet]

Its 100% true...

[DLodge]

what hte hell are you talking about?? Israeli pilots have the most experience and are considered to be the best.. im not just saying this out of my ass, go talk to any pilot from any countrie and he'll tell you about israel
From an American fighter pilot...

Are the Israelis the best? Well, that's all subjective...not something that's even really worth debating. Why do people think they're the best? All you've got to do is take a look at their combat record to know.
The Python IV is also one damned-fine missile.

[IDFM203]

Good post Ngati Tumatuenga :D


"In Lebanon, Syria had top soviet planes and they had better training then what the Iraqi pilots had now."

"top Soviet planes" - Fulcrums? yes I believe top soviet planes for that time.

They had them all I believe.

Click here for a more detailed list of those Israeli air to air kills and what kind of soviet planes they shot down (http://www.acig.org/)

(if it goes to the home page and not directly to the page that I wanted, then first click on the ACIG journal, then on the left click the middle east database then in the middle go to where it says Israeli air to air victories since 1974)


"
nuff said!! but I will go on for two more points..... :D

Secondly no other air forces have been in much Arial dog fighting for years now."

I'd say Korea was the last major dog fighting war, or perhaps Vietnam.. since the introducion of the soviet flewn MiG-21, gave those Phantom-pilots something to work with atleast... First of all in those wars, the ratios of success weren’t that big for either nations and certainly not as successful as the ratios in each of Israel’s wars that the IAF has shown.

Secondly I disagree for I would say the last is the 1982 war with lebanon for you can knock the Arabs all you want but they had very modern planes and they had training and it was by all accounts dog fighting as in the every sense of the word.

Just because Israel trashed them doesn’t mean that there was no air-to-air war.

For there was indeed and in fact there were numerous air to air combat engagements in that war and I don’t think since then have we seen anywhere near the number of air to air engagements in any of the wars since then in any conflict.




"Thirdly in mock dogfights on different occasions against the German, U.S and I believe the British air forces (though I cant remember where I read that so I am not 100 percent sure on the british part) in recent times, the IAF was dominant in its “wins” in all those exercises."

No statistics for training with USAF/Marine fighters? I mean, Tornados and Jaguars are not so good to compare with if you can compare with nations with the equivalent gear.. oh so you don’t belive what I said before :roll: ….ok no problem here check this out…… :D

First from the Associated press.


Israeli airforce beats German pilots in 'dogfight' exercise

The Associated Press Sep. 22, 2003
Israeli air force pilots handily beat their German counterparts in "dogfights" in the first ever air force exercise between the two countries, an Israeli military official said Monday.

The Israeli F-15 pilots, aided by special technology that Israel does not share or sell to other countries, beat the Germans by more than 100 "hits," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. In the past, Israel has beaten American air force pilots by similar margins, the officials added.

Israel purchases U.S. warplanes without battle technology, installing its own locally made systems into the aircraft.



The second is from the Jerusalem post (http://www.jpost.com/com/Archive/24.Sep.1999/News/Article-3.html) who actually got it from air force monthly magazine (and these results were also published at the time in Israeli papers in Hebrew)


Report: IAF whips US pilots in exercise

By ARIEH O'SULLIVAN
TEL AVIV (September 24) - A recent joint exercise between the IAF and US Navy Sixth Fleet pilots apparently resulted in a thorough routing of the US pilots, according to the latest edition of Air Force Monthly.
The American-based magazine said the exercise in question took place in the Negev skies and involved engagements between IAF F-16s and US Navy F-14s and F/A-18s.
Quoting Israeli military sources, the magazine said one of the exercises ended with the score of 40:1 in favor of the IAF. The magazine said Israel "downed" 220 aircraft for the loss of just 20 of its own.
It said that the results have not been officially published "to save the reputations of the US Navy pilots."
The magazine did not say when the exercise took place. But security sources said that the dogfights took place about three months ago. They said the exercise was the first time that Israeli pilots actually took part in the maneuvers and didn't just give logistical support. Israeli pilots have also flown with various flight academies as guests or students.
The IAF said it does not give detailed results of training exercises. But air force commanders were said to be incensed by the report. While refusing to confirm or deny the report, military sources said neither Israel or the US had officially released the "scores."
"We showed an arrogance we didn't mean to display," one senior IAF officer said.

hmm anything else ;) :D

Shalom :D

[MVSpartan117]

thats kinda funny! :lol:


Go USA! :D

[usa320]

I think the US and Israel are about equal in Aerial combat. They are both the best forces in the world. The US too has alot of assets that the IAF doesnt. The F-22, stealth aircraft, long range bombers.

But in sheer air to air combat it could go either way.

The RAF, Saudi Air Force and the Luftwaffe are probably right behind the US and Israel as far as best air forces go.

[Helly]

I think the 83 to 1 threshing by the IAF against them should be respected and not discounted at all or as you have done.

Well, The F-15C/D-versions has a kill ratio 95-0 so far.. ;)

Cazorp: more than half of those 95 kills are by Israeli F-15s.


~Helly

[IDFM203]

Indeed go USA and as well, go Israel! :D


I think the US and Israel are about equal in Aerial combat. hmm ;) …….. I think the edge would go to IAF pilots simply based on the fact of how well they have already proven themselves in mock dogfights against the U.S (as I showed before) and in how successful the air to air kill ratios Israel has had in all of its wars which I believe is higher then anyone period.

Also the training selection IMO is the worlds toughest for to even get in there is a whole long evaluation procces and the few that do make it have to look forward to a little over a 90 percent drop out rate, so only the very best of the best make it.

I believe that this is the toughest selection rate of anyone in the world and this indeed ensures that only the most skilled make it

All those combined make me come to the conclusion that I came up with for an event that will never and should never happen anyways!!

But that IAF edge is in air to air engagements when everything is equal but of course nothing is ever equal and indeed the size and scope and wide Varity of the U.S. fleet of air craft dwarfs the IAF and as such if it was a all out war with all assets in play, well then I would say it can go either way ;)

Just my opinion here………

Shalom :D

[DLodge]

Okay, since y'all are bringing up that old Air Forces Monthly article regarding the IAF/USN exercise I feel this point needs to be made...

Remember what the actual comparisons are -- are they talking about 1 v 1, BVR, WVR, ACM (2 v 1), 2 v x? It makes a BIG difference.
I'm guess they're talking about 1 v 1 BFM in this case. It's no secret that the Israeli Python IV missile is a better close-in weapon than the current AIM-9M that the USAF and USN are using -- we can talk about the reasons why then we step into the vault (e.g. they're classified), but this is precisely the reason we need the AIM-9X!

I'd be willing to bet my left nut that the first look shot capability of the Python IV is what caused the IAF's "victories" in the BFM that AFM published.

Realize that in a real "shootin' war", the chances of doing any real BFM are slim to none, so what matters are BVR tactics and ACM tactics (remember, ACM is not a blanket term covering all dogfighting like it was used in TOP GUN -- it implies tactics used between two or more blue fighters and a lesser amount of bandits, usually 2 v 1). Since this AFM study did not address this, it's not really a good yardstick of how the US and IAF would fare against each other.

I've posted before on the ridiculousness of using leaked exercise results to try and evaluate anything. Basically there are too many variables, from ROEs to tactics to the weapons that were simulated, etc., to draw conclusions about respective skill levels.

The IDF/AF is very good, and they have an A2A record and depth of experience that is unmatched. But it is pointless and useless to trot out silly stats from an exercise that you know nothing about and which took place 5 years ago as proof of anything. Hell, the Indian Air Force recently claimed that they beat U.S. F-15s in DACT by a 4-to-1 margin!

To sum up: ignore those exercise reports, they'll tell you nothing and if you try and use them in an argument with a real fighter pilot he (or she) will likely laugh in your face.

And as I said before, saying someone is "the best" is subjective and impossible. The IDF/AF is among the best, 'nuff said.

[IDFM203]

Hehe :D yes we go at this every now and then ;)


Yes indeed I would never take this to a fighter pilot nor would any IAF pilot ever bring these exercises up or even say he is better or what not.

I mean all those past U.S. pilot quotes you brought to me before or about ROE’s are great and such, but I haven’t nor can I bring you any Israeli pilot quotes for they don’t give interviews so the other side isn’t there to say what happned.

That article was leaked by someone and indeed that air force monthly article was written IMO as well in a very juvenile way but it was not the pilots saying that nor can you discount the huge ratios of what occurred there regardless of how you perceive it happened.


Now I was not in the air force and I don’t think you were as well and as such this isn’t any pilot or whatnot bragging or even talking about this. No we are soldiers (well I was, though I don’t know if you ever mentioned you were one) and military enthusiasts and as such all we are doing is engaging in some friendly conversations about this as is normal per this type of forum


Now yes, I can’t prove anything conclusively but as I outlined in the post above yours, there are a few factors that when combined IMO give IAF pilots the edge.

Shalom :D

[cazorp]

"top Soviet planes" - Fulcrums? yes I believe top soviet planes for that time.

They had them all I believe.

Click here for a more detailed list of those Israeli air to air kills and what kind of soviet planes they shot down (http://www.acig.org/)

[/quote]


I've checked you link, and found exactly what I was looking for, here:

http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_270.shtml

Ok, not similar aircrafts in any means, but i'd still say pretty handsome job by IDF ..

EDIT:

Oops, forgot to check "the other side"; http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_272.shtml

And I can even se downed IAF F-15 in Syrias statistics..

[Javehn]

There was downed IAF planes in that particular incident , but they all ... IAF UAV (by the way , Israel was first country to make UAV . Again ;) ) that were used as part of the battle there (it started by destroying Radar facilities , and SA batteries in Bekaa valley , and Syria launched an counterstrike on IAF planes ) . Syrian sources tryed to bust their heart ego (we all know what magnifficant stories heart Arab ego can produce) considered the downed UAV as Israeli F-15 planes . Most of those Syrian pilots was down even before they could see IAF planes .

To those who having a problem bellieving the sources(and i see it is a problem ) , and think it's a pile of Jewish propaganda , IAF have the best AAR (After mission research , or simply debreafing) system in the world (If USAF is learning the AAR method , can it tell you something ? ) . If i am not mistaken , the system of debreaf was allready active in that time , and i think i would better bellieve IAF , then any Arab source (the ones that claimed Jews getting thrown into medditerain sea by the Arab forces , when Israeli soldiers washed their feet in Suez canal) .

[AirZone]

If im not mistaken... boths IAF and USA navy pilots used the helm thingy that gives you ability to aim with your head (DASH helm?)

anyway... my question is if they used AIM9 vs python ? (it was python 4 back then not 5) or they used a special missile for training?

[DLodge]

If im not mistaken... boths IAF and USA navy pilots used the helm thingy that gives you ability to aim with your head (DASH helm?)
At the time USN Hornet squadrons had not yet acquired the JHMCS helmet-mounted display. They had no system comparable to the DASH.

anyway... my question is if they used AIM9 vs python ? (it was python 4 back then not 5) or they used a special missile for training?
They do not use "special missiles," that would defeat the purpose of the exercise. Both sides try to simulate as accurately as possible the performance of their own weapons.

It is no secret that the AIM-9M is vastly inferior to the Python IV/DASH combo. Any WVR combat would immediately place the American planes at a significant disadvantage because of their inferior equipment. Furthermore, reputable sources (U.S. pilots) have stated that the ROEs for the engagament discussed in Air Forces Monthly permitted the Israeli aircraft to take BVR shots on Hornets and Tomcats that could not, and that the U.S. planes were "configured double ugly" going up against IDF/AF planes that had just taken off with slick configurations. Not only that, the Israeli pilots reportedly counted "kills" on aircraft that had already been shot-down, inflating their kill ratio. In such a situation the IDF/AF would have had to be incompetent not to win by a large margin.

And before someone tells me that the USN pilots are distorting the truth to save face, well you should take note of the fact that the U.S. consistently "loses" in exercises to everyone from the Indian Air Force to the Bahrain Air Force to the Saudis.

Again, unless you know all the details, exercise reports are meaningless.

[DLodge]

I did some more research on the exercise and found a report from The Hook, the Journal of Carrier Aviation, regarding the performance of the USN versus the IDF/AF.

Admiral: My apologies for not addressing this issue sooner, but I've been very busy with the best job in the world (CAG), getting us settled on the Navy's newest carrier CVN 75, USS Harry S. Truman, and gathering parts/people for our deployment in Nov. George Michael has hit the nail on the head, and then some. Although I concur with the article's assertion that we need more/better adversary support for the Fleet, the newspaper article (I forget the author's name) was obviously not well researched, and he should be embarrassed to be a mouthpiece for the Israeli propaganda mill.

On our last cruise on Enterprise (CVN 65) in 98/99, we participated in the first officially sanctioned DACT det with the IAF. We sent Tomcats and Hornets to an Israeli base for a 10 day det, and we did get some excellent training that we have recommended to other air wings. However, the unclas version of what really transpired is as follows:

The kill ratio that started with approx. a 5 or 6 to 2 ratio in favor of the IAF (the claim of 20 to 1 is so absurd it doesn't deserve any more comment), ended after a steep learning curve to be pretty close to 1 to 1 at the end of the det. This is impressive when you consider that:

1. We sent in (with minimal adult supervision) no kidding nuggets, for the benefit of their training. Unlike their IAF counterparts who had a complete ACM workup in preparation for the det; our kids, after a month or two of cruise, were not even ACM current when we arrived in-country. 2. The scenarios were carefully scripted, in their backyard. Not only did the IAF get the low blocks (so we could look down at their brown camouflage against the desert floor), the roles were pre-briefed to offensive/defensive setups (ala USAF RTU sorties), with role reversals only allowed in the latter stages of the det.

In addition, suffice it to say we were not allowed by the scenario to optimize our real world tactics/weapons. On reflection, that is a probably a good thing since who knows what today's friend will do tomorrow.

I think the reasoning behind the IAF version is that the Israeli's believe (rightly so) that a critical factor in their defense is to preserve the mystique of the "invincible" IAF fighter pilot. While the IAF is a very professional force and unmatched in dedication and discipline, one must look at their adversaries and the day/VFR environment they operate in. We have trained with and/or fought against every major air force in the Middle East, and should remember that in every case, the IAF is going up against "Jerry's Kids."

The bottom line is that our SFWTI/Top Gun trained JO's with their top-notch machines, weapons and superior training have no match anywhere on this planet! These kids are so good it's scary. I can only keep up with them after 25 years of Navy flying and 6000 hours in "pointy nose" airplanes, by cheating at every opportunity. I would put them up against any air force, any time and be absolutely certain we will come out on top.

Please feel free to pass this on, and edit if you see fit.

V/R, check 6, Brick.
To preempt the argument that my sources are not objective...notice that the U.S. never publicly tried to discredit the misinformation spread by certain IDF/AF personnel. The above info comes from a niche USN publication that will never reach the widespread audience of Air Forces Monthly or the Jerusalem Post, a publication furthermore that often criticizes the USN. If the Israelis really had demolished the Americans there is no doubt that The Hook would be demanding better air-to-air training. Given the lack of outcry in the naval aviation community following the exercise, I am inclined to believe what I posted.

[AirZone]

Very intersting...

But today its mostly BVR so it doesnt matter whos better, just whos faster while he uses his rader.

And about fighter pilots skill, well it depends alot about the squadron(israeli pilots are like top gun pilots... to be a fighter pilots you have VERY intese training, selection, very hard tests so only the BEST of the BEST like idf said are going into fighter training and only the top of them finish it much like top gun), weapons(i bet israel used DASH/Python but still it doesnt matter as long some one on your six it doesnt matter if you have AIM9 or Pyhton same **** in close combat), plane (F16 is probably better than F14 and F18 in close combat.. more "cat like"), ROE (i read some where that they did the same scenrio twice, one for IAF pilots and one for USA pilots)

anyway i know theres israeli pilots in topgun.. care to free some info about it ?


and what really should be intersting is top gun pilots against IAF pilots

with the same weapons,plane etc.. (like F16C and AIM9?)

but you forgot one thing... today its mainly hi-tec
only in the days of six days war/vietnam or lets go to korea and WW2 you really had to have skill hell even WWI with legendry aces.. becuase back then you didnt have all the fancy hi-tec **** with fly-by-wire...the day of the old dog fights is over *sighs*

[usa320]

I think the edge would go to IAF pilots simply based on the fact of how well they have already proven themselves in mock dogfights against the U.S (as I showed before) and in how successful the air to air kill ratios Israel has had in all of its wars which I believe is higher then anyone period.


In a 1v1 dogfight with guns and winders i think the IAF would have the advantage. But in Modern air war as a whole, the US has the advantage.

AWACS, Satellite, Datalink, UAV's... More intelligence means better ability to kill the enemy... Plus chances are the IAF wouldnt even make it into the air... See many air forces wait for the enemy air force to come up and fight. The US just destroys all the planes on the ground before they even know what the hell is going on. Usually B-2's and F-117's take out the C3I and AD facilities, then F-15E's and F-14D's roll in and level every plane on the tarmack and crater the **** out of all the runways.

[DLodge]

anyway i know theres israeli pilots in topgun.. care to free some info about it
I've never heard of Israeli pilots participating in Top Gun (now incorporated into the Naval Strike and Air Warfare Center or NSAWC). They are regular participants in Red Flag, a "a realistic combat training exercise involving the air forces of the United States and its allies...that provides a peacetime 'battlefield' within which our combat air forces can train. Inside this battlefield, aircrews train to fight together, survive together and win together." Earlier this year 4 IDF/AF F-16s deployed to Red Flag 04-3, and in years past F-16s, F-15Is and F-15Ds have been involved as well. From what I can tell (Red Flag results are classified) the Israelis are very highly regarded and everyone gains tremendously from the training opportunity.

As this is a photo section, allow me to provide some pics from Red Flag 02-04, which occured in September 2002 (you Israelis have some of the best paint schemes I've ever seen!)...

http://www.air-and-space.com/20020910%20Nellis/4%2015%20F-15I%20701%20IAF%20right%20front%20landing%20l.jpg
Boeing-McDonnell-Douglas F-15D Buzzard, 701 of 106 Squadron, Ha'Baz Ha'Sh'niyah (Second Eagle Squadron), of the Heyl Ha'avir (Israel Defense Force/Air Force)

http://www.air-and-space.com/20020910%20Nellis/9%2025%20F-15I%20701%20IAF%20right%20side%20take%20off%20l.jpg
Boeing-McDonnell-Douglas F-15D Buzzard, 701 of 106 Squadron, based at Tel Nof, assigned to the air superiority role

http://www.air-and-space.com/20020910%20Nellis/4%2018%20F-15I%20715%20IAF%20right%20front%20landing%20l.jpg
Boeing-McDonnell-Douglas F-15D Buzzard, 715 of 106 Squadron

http://www.air-and-space.com/20020909%20Nellis/1%2028%20F-15I%20733%20IAF%20left%20front%20take%20off%20l.jpg
Boeing-McDonnell-Douglas F-15D Buzzard, 733 of 133 Squadron

http://www.air-and-space.com/20020905%20Nellis/2%2017%20F-15I%20IAF%20733%20left%20side%20tail%20landing%20l.jpg
Boeing-McDonnell-Douglas F-15D Buzzard, 733 has an eagle head on the inboard side of the vertical stabilizer and the insignia of 133 Squadron on the outboard of the stabilizers

http://www.air-and-space.com/20020906%20Nellis/9%2035%20F-15I%20269%20IAF%20right%20rear%20landing%20l.jpg
Boeing-McDonnell-Douglas F-15I Thunder, 269 of 69 Squadron, Ha'patishim (The Hammers), based at Hatzerim

http://www.air-and-space.com/20020910%20Nellis/2%2009%20F-15I%20269%20IAF%20right%20side%20take%20off%20l.jpg
Boeing-McDonnell-Douglas F-15I Thunder, 269 of the Israel Defense Force/Air Force

http://www.air-and-space.com/20020910%20Nellis/2%2012%20F-15I%20271%20IAF%20right%20side%20take%20off%20l.jpg
Boeing-McDonnell-Douglas F-15I Thunder, 271 of the Israel Defense Force/Air Force

[SeanAshi]

ahhh F-15 much better aircraft then the mig-29 ;)

[DLodge]

Pics from Red Flag 03-04...

http://www.tailslides.co.uk/Red%20Flag/RF03-04/Images/036%20F-16D%20109sq%20tailslides%20(Medium).jpg

http://www.tailslides.co.uk/Red%20Flag/RF03-04/Images/355%20F-16C%20117sq%20tailslides%20(Medium).jpg

http://www.tailslides.co.uk/Red%20Flag/RF03-04/Images/386%20F-16C%20110sq%20tailslides%20(Medium).jpg

http://www.tailslides.co.uk/Red%20Flag/RF03-04/Images/619%20105sq%20F-16D%20tailslides%20(Medium).jpg

Incidentally, there's an IMAX movie to be released in May about Red Flag feautring IDF/AF F-16s among others. I dunno if it'll be released in Israel though.

[AirZone]

I think the edge would go to IAF pilots simply based on the fact of how well they have already proven themselves in mock dogfights against the U.S (as I showed before) and in how successful the air to air kill ratios Israel has had in all of its wars which I believe is higher then anyone period.


In a 1v1 dogfight with guns and winders i think the IAF would have the advantage. But in Modern air war as a whole, the US has the advantage.

AWACS, Satellite, Datalink, UAV's... More intelligence means better ability to kill the enemy... Plus chances are the IAF wouldnt even make it into the air... See many air forces wait for the enemy air force to come up and fight. The US just destroys all the planes on the ground before they even know what the hell is going on. Usually B-2's and F-117's take out
the C3I and AD facilities, then F-15E's and F-14D's roll in and level every plane on the tarmack and crater the f*** out of all the runways.

If you are talking about techonolgy... believe me we are in a good place

AWACS ? check
Satellites ? check
Datalink ? check
UAV's ? double check (you buy some from us)

mabye we dont have a stealth fighters (sooner or later everyone will have one) but in tech we are one of the leading countries (mainly because we are small and we depend more on quailty and skill than on mass numbers)

but overall yeah USA airforce, navy and marines are just huge so no one has a chance to go against them...

and DLodge.. god the pics are c00l
i want to be an IAF pilot :|
but i did bad on my math tests (i could have done better)
so im trying my luck in S13 (like Seal Team 6) selection pash...

but god flying a F15I (bro of my friend is a F15I pilot)
is a dream =]

[IDFM203]

Dlodge

First le me say thanks for your pics.

Do you have any more info on the IAF’s participation in red flag for I heard about it but I don’t know much about their participation there.

Ok now two points I should address and one of them is a repeat.

First of all the IAF kill results were not published like that Jerusalem postby their staff.

The jpost got it from air force monthly so the way it was written goes to them and not to jpost.
‘
Secondly in the Hebrew papers I remember when it was published and it got very small details or it got small attention as well.

I mean it was not in the front page and it was only a small box simply saying that IAF beat the U.S. in exercises by a kill ratio etc…..and that was it


Lastly as to your pilots quotes or articles that you brought down.

Again” I mean all those past U.S. pilot quotes you brought to me before or about ROE’s are great and such, but I haven’t nor can I bring you any Israeli pilot quotes for they don’t give interviews so the other side isn’t there to say what happned”

I mean when two top air forces face off against each ther (unlike some of the other air forces that you have faced ;) ) I find it hard to believe that one would have different ROEs then the other for then how does a air force learn.

The way you learn is by going up against the best at exactly the same ROE’s and then from that you can evaluate any changes or how each doing in order to improve for the future or see what needs improving if any is needed.

I am sorry but after reading your account from a admiral and some of HIS wording it seems to me like he is trying to save face at the expense of a lopsided result at the hands of the IAF (I mean even some of his language there and wording were in the same tone and bravado as that Jpost article in which you are discounting)


But again we don’t have any IAF pilots here so I guess you have that and that is it, and anyone can draw their own conclusions.


In a 1v1 dogfight with guns and winders i think the IAF would have the advantage. But in Modern air war as a whole, the US has the advantage.

hmm I kind of said that before to you ;) ...here I repeat my last post to you.


Indeed go USA and as well, go Israel! :D


I think the US and Israel are about equal in Aerial combat. hmm ;) …….. I think the edge would go to IAF pilots simply based on the fact of how well they have already proven themselves in mock dogfights against the U.S (as I showed before) and in how successful the air to air kill ratios Israel has had in all of its wars which I believe is higher then anyone period.

Also the training selection IMO is the worlds toughest for to even get in there is a whole long evaluation procces and the few that do make it have to look forward to a little over a 90 percent drop out rate, so only the very best of the best make it.

I believe that this is the toughest selection rate of anyone in the world and this indeed ensures that only the most skilled make it

All those combined make me come to the conclusion that I came up with for an event that will never and should never happen anyways!!

But that IAF edge is in air to air engagements when everything is equal but of course nothing is ever equal and indeed the size and scope and wide Varity of the U.S. fleet of air craft dwarfs the IAF and as such if it was a all out war with all assets in play, well then I would say it can go either way ;)

Just my opinion here………

Shalom :D

Lastly to cazorp

Hmm if that is all you got, then I rest my case :D




Next……… ;)

Shalom :D

[tacticalmanta]

bottom line, the US sixth fleet air wing held training actions with the IAF in the lat 90's. The result.. Israel had a 40:1 kill ratio in the air. End of story.

[DLodge]

bottom line, the US sixth fleet air wing held training actions with the IAF in the lat 90's.
This is true.

The result.. Israel had a 40:1 kill ratio in the air. End of story.
No.

The Israeli Air Force, for whatever reason, has a vested interest in making itself seem unbeatable, hence the skewed ROEs and the inflated claims. A 40:1 kill ratio is so unbelievable as to be absolutely ridiculous to anyone with any knowledge of modern air combat. I highly doubt you could find any Israeli pilot who would repeat that figure with a straight face.

[tacticalmanta]

sorry, the 40:1 ratio is a fact. I was there and there was big embarassment because Israeli pilots were ordered to keep the numbers close. The ratio is the official result, like it or not.

[mustamato]

sorry, the 40:1 ratio is a fact.

You know, facts are preferably backed up with a printed source. And since you
claim that there is a "official result", well...

[tacticalmanta]

How did some many stupid kids get on this board?

http://www.jpost.com/com/Archive/24.Sep.1999/News/Article-3.html

[mustamato]

How did some many stupid kids get on this board?

http://www.jpost.com/com/Archive/24.Sep.1999/News/Article-3.html

"Quoting Israeli military sources, the magazine said one of the exercises
ended with the score of 40:1 in favor of the IAF."'

As I said, do you have any printed source?

[tacticalmanta]

that is a printed source. Perhaps you want an official Israeli document? Yeah, that's a realistic request.

[DLodge]

sorry, the 40:1 ratio is a fact. I was there and there was big embarassment because Israeli pilots were ordered to keep the numbers close. The ratio is the official result, like it or not.
So the 40:1 ratio is true, fine. it was obviously produced by an exercise whose ROEs and restrictions gave the Israelis a huge and insurmountable advantage from the beginning. I wonder why the IDF/AF source never mentioned the overall outcome of the entire training period, just the outcome of one exercise out of many?

Not that this is anything new, as I said before, the U.S. routinely "loses" in exercises against countries which have clearly inferior equipment and pilots(not that that's true of Israel). Just a few months ago several Indian newspapers published articles detailing how USAF F-15Cs had been beaten by Indian Su-30s by a whopping a 4-to-1 kill ratio! That "fact" is about as telling as the 40-to-1 figure repeatedly being mentioned.

And since you were "there," perhaps you can give us some more insight. In The Hook, the CAG for the Air Wing participating mentioned that by the end of the training the kill ratio had stabilized at one-to-one. Is that not a fact also?

[tacticalmanta]

funny thing is that Israel hs superior pilots.. and superior equipment. Israel avionincs a far superior to US ones. Same reason Clinton would not allow Israel to buy F-16's with Elbit avionics... So Israel had to gut the electronics and upgrade them.

This is the same reason the US Marines have a close quarters combat school in Israel.. taught by Israelis.

Israel lacks in sea power (though during '73, the IN had more missles afloat than the Soviet Med and Black sea fleets combined.. the US wasn't even in the running). However, the full exercise was this air exercise and the carrier group had the advantage.

Stop digging for excuses and just accept the fact that Israel has the best fighter pilots in the world.

[IDFM203]

sorry, the 40:1 ratio is a fact. I was there and there was big embarassment because Israeli pilots were ordered to keep the numbers close. The ratio is the official result, like it or not.
So the 40:1 ratio is true, fine. it was obviously produced by an exercise whose ROEs and restrictions gave the Israelis a huge advantage from the beginning. I wonder why the IDF/AF source never mentioned the overall outcome of the entire training period, just the outcome of one exercise out of many? yes and you can prove that there were different ROE’s :roll:

Oh and that was no IAF source but rather a air force monthly written by someone that was there….this isn’t any official thing nor would the IAF engage in any official posting of these things.

Hell most of the IAF don’t speak about this, and I find it ironic that a lot of the USN pilots and others are indeed speaking out…the fact that a lot of them spoke out tells me that the story has some truth to it for why else would they be backpeddeling so publicly ;)

No without any Israeli pilots confirming that, all that you have brought down seems like at your end someone is trying hard to save face

You know because your air force as well like to have that air force invincibility rep ;)



Not that this is anything new, as I said before, the U.S. routinely "loses" in exercises against countries which have clearly inferior equipment and pilots(not that that's true of Israel). indeed as I can understand perhaps different ROE’s for weaker and inferior equipments.

But again ”I mean when two top air forces face off against each other (unlike some of the other air forces that you have faced ) I find it hard to believe that one would have different ROEs then the other for then how does a air force learn.

The way you learn is by going up against the best at exactly the same ROE’s and then from that you can evaluate any changes or how each doing in order to improve for the future or see what needs improving if any is needed"

Shalom :D

[DLodge]

funny thing is that Israel hs superior pilots.. and superior equipment. Israel avionincs a far superior to US ones. Same reason Clinton would not allow Israel to buy F-16's with Elbit avionics... So Israel had to gut the electronics and upgrade them...Stop digging for excuses and just accept the fact that Israel has the best fighter pilots in the world.
Actually Clinton was trying to provide American companies with business since we were paying for the F-16s anyway. And part of the reason Israel upgrades all its planes domestically is because the U.S. doesn't allow much of the most sophisticated American technology to be exported.

Why don't you address my points instead of spouting off about how "superior" Israeli pilots and equipment are? What about the one-to-one kill ratio? Was the Captain lying?

[DLodge]

You know because your air force as well like to have that air force invincibility rep
As I keep mentioning, almost everytime U.S. fighters participate in an air combat exercise on foreign soil there are breathless news accounts of how the Americans were badly beaten. The U.S. never replies, because official DoD policy is to not comment on exercises.



But again ”I mean when two top air forces face off against each other (unlike some of the other air forces that you have faced ) I find it hard to believe that one would have different ROEs then the other for then how does a air force learn.

The way you learn is by going up against the best at exactly the same ROE’s and then from that you can evaluate any changes or how each doing in order to improve for the future or see what needs improving if any is needed"
They're not "facing off," they're training together in order to improve their combat performance. Why would they have unrestricted ROEs? That would accomplish nothing, since Israel is never going to fight the U.S. The point is for one side to simulate a potential opponent the other side might face. That is how air combat exercises are run, everytime, everywhere.


Oh and that was no IAF source but rather a air force monthly written by someone that was there….this isn’t any official thing nor would the IAF engage in any official posting of these things.

Hell most of the IAF don’t speak about this, and I find it ironic that a lot of the USN pilots and others are indeed speaking out…the fact that a lot of them spoke out tells me that the story has some truth to it for why else would they be backpeddeling so publicly
The source was from the IDF/AF according to the Jerusalem Post. And no U.S. pilots or U.S. military personnel breathed a word about the exercise to the general media. All my info comes from candid emails and an internal publication of The Tailhook Association.

[tacticalmanta]

It's laughable that you think Israeli avionics are far superior to U.S. ones. Are you more of an authority on this subject than Jane's? Or Aviation Week?

Why don't you address my points instead of spouting off about how "superior" Israeli pilots are to everyone else in the world? What about the one-to-one kil ratio? Was the Captain lying?

No, because Israel offered to allow US companies to manufacture the system. The system is simpley better. Accept it, or be wrong; it's your choice.

If it wasn't Israel would not be upgrading their planes to it now at additional expense!

[IDFM203]

You know because your air force as well like to have that air force invincibility rep
As I keep mentioning, almost everytime U.S. fighters participate in an air combat exercise on foreign soil there are breathless news accounts of how the Americans were badly beaten. The U.S. never replies, because official DoD policy is to not comment on exercises.
as well as the IAF does not either.

oh and I already explained the differences between facing the IAF and other air forces that you have faced and how things are different with the IAF at least IMO






But again ”I mean when two top air forces face off against each other (unlike some of the other air forces that you have faced ) I find it hard to believe that one would have different ROEs then the other for then how does a air force learn.

The way you learn is by going up against the best at exactly the same ROE’s and then from that you can evaluate any changes or how each doing in order to improve for the future or see what needs improving if any is needed"
They're not "facing off," they're training together in order to improve their combat performance. Why would they have unrestricted ROEs? That would accomplish nothing, since Israel is never going to fight the U.S. The point is for one side to simulate a potential opponent the other side might face. That is how air combat exercises are run, everytime, everywhere. put it this way. However you want to frame it, I don’t think the IAF had an advantage in ROE’s as you claim.

However it is done, and rather the ROE’s switch off for different training positions I don’t think that the IAF througout the exercises were given diffenrt ROE’s to give it any advantage,

On all exercises they swish off and there are all sorts of changes for one side to the other for both to get a feel for all sorts of different combat situations in order to train and learn from


Your assertion that the IAF had ROE;s to its advantage the whole time is simply bogus and untrue.

And indeed they are there to learn from each other but just like in inter service training where you have two teams where each team acts like an enemy to the other, the same with these exercises.

But of course we are on the same team and I do have respect for the U.S. pilots and I do consider them to be amongst the best in the world, just not THE best.



And the source was from the IDF/AF according to the Jerusalem Post. And no U.S. pilots or U.S. military personnel breathed a word about the exercise to the general media . no it was according to air force monthly. The jpost took everything from that publication.

As for U.S, officials commenting, well I see you brought down a few sources from them so that is what I was referring to, while I cant do any such thing from the IAF perspective for they don’t talk about it much. (Though there is a article about it in their website but it doesn’t mention any scores)

Shalom :D

[DLodge]

No, because Israel offered to allow US companies to manufacture the system. The system is simpley better. Accept it, or be wrong; it's your choice.
Exactly which F-16 purchase are you referring to? Because you mention Clinton it must be Peace Marble V then? And what system are you referring to? The mission computer? The stores management system? The HUD?

As for "simply better," then this holds true; some Israeli systems are better than their American counterparts, some American systems are better than they're Israeli counterparts. Were I to design a "perfect" fighter it would consist of components from many different countries, not just the U.S. I don't think any country has a monopoly on "the best" avionics, weapons, airframes, etc.

[DLodge]

However it is done, and rather the ROE’s switch off for different training positions I don’t think that the IAF througout the exercises were given diffenrt ROE’s to give it any advantage,

On all exercises they swish off and there are all sorts of changes for one side to the other for both to get a feel for all sorts of different combat situations in order to train and learn from


Your assertion that the IAF had ROE;s to its advantage the whole time is simply bogus and untrue.
I never asserted that, and I don't think it's true. If you read the Jerusalem Post and Air Forces Monthly article carefully, you'll see it mentions that in one of the exercises the Israelis had a 40:1 kill ratio. There is no mention of the others, which doubtless had different ROEs and different results.

As far as being "the best," as I said before that's a subjective thing and impossible to measure. I think that Israel probably would have an advantage over most American aircraft in the WVR air-to-air arena simply because almost all Israeli fighters have the Python IV (or V)/DASH and only two squadrons of F-15Cs carry the AIM-9X/JHMCS. Beyond that it's impossible to say.

They're certainly extremely professional and capable, I'm just reluctant to crown anyone (including U.S. pilots) with the mantle of "the best."

[IDFM203]

If you read the Jerusalem Post and Air Forces Monthly article carefully, you'll see it mentions that in one of the exercises the Israelis had a 40:1 kill ratio. There is no mention of the others, which doubtless had different ROEs and different results. . Actually I am pretty sure that YOU didn’t read it carefully ;)


Quoting Israeli military sources, the magazine said one of the exercises ended with the score of 40:1 in favor of the IAF. The magazine said Israel "downed" 220 aircraft for the loss of just 20 of its own

So no, the same results in other exercises as well!!!!! :D

As for ROE’s I don’t think the IAF had better ones throughout the exercises, I just don’t buy that and I don’t think it would happen.


As far as being "the best," as I said before that's a subjective thing and impossible to measure. I think it might be hard to prove but I disagree that its hard to measure

I think a logical case can be made to back up what I said.

I think between the two I belive the edge would go to IAF pilots and that they are THE best simply based on the fact of how well they have already proven themselves in mock dogfights against the U.S (as I showed before) against Germany and I believe against Britain (though I cant prove that last one) and in how successful the air to air kill ratios Israel has had in all of its wars which I believe is higher then anyone period.

Also the training selection IMO is the worlds toughest for to even get in there is a whole long evaluation procces and the few that do make it have to look forward to a little over a 90 percent drop out rate, so only the very best of the best make it.

I believe that this is the toughest selection rate of anyone in the world and this indeed ensures that only the most skilled make it

All those combined make me come to the conclusion that I came up with for an event that will never and should never happen anyways!!

So I think a case can be that IAF pilots are indeed THE best!!

Shalom :D

[DLodge]

Well I guess we'll have to just disagree then. The impression I get from American pilots who've flown with the IDF/AF is that the Israeli pilots are very good, but not really any better than the other top air force's in the world.

...the Israeli's believe (rightly so) that a critical factor in their defense is to preserve the mystique of the "invincible" IAF fighter pilot. While the IAF is a very professional force and unmatched in dedication and discipline, one must look at their adversaries and the day/VFR environment they operate in. We have trained with and/or fought against every major air force in the Middle East, and should remember that in every case, the IAF is going up against "Jerry's Kids."
I agree with the above quote. I don't buy into the "Israeli superiority" hype.

[AirZone]

DLodge, i rememeber i read about in IAF monthly...USA pilots did comment about how IAF pilots did great thing with the F16 and they never knew how "cat-like" is the F16... i think i saw IAF pilots talking too anyway about the ROE it was very simple..they did it twice..1 to USA advantage and 1 to IAF advantage... simple as that...like IDFM said, the ROE was even ! i remember it clearly how they wrote

how IAF won in "wargames" against USA
200+ to 20+-

about DASH/Pyhton... im kinda sure the IAF didnt use the DASH helm.. but against the german they used DASH/Pyhton (or mabye even JHMCS...thats the name right?) because the german had similar system in thier MIG29

[IDFM203]

Well I guess we'll have to just disagree then. The impression I get from American pilots who've flown with the IDF/AF is that the Israeli pilots are very good, but not really any better than the other top air force's in the world. gee OF COURSE they would say that.

Btw notice that no IAF pilots says better or even said any quote like you said above.

Interesting as to why American pilots would be so jumpy and the fact that they say what I expect them to say (if they comment which IMO they should not even comment at all) IMO only shows that what I say has a lot of relevance to it.


...the Israeli's believe (rightly so) that a critical factor in their defense is to preserve the mystique of the "invincible" IAF fighter pilot. While the IAF is a very professional force and unmatched in dedication and discipline, one must look at their adversaries and the day/VFR environment they operate in. We have trained with and/or fought against every major air force in the Middle East, and should remember that in every case, the IAF is going up against "Jerry's Kids."
yes exactly as to the immaturity and bravado that I was referring to before and which is the same (admitingly) immature tone as the airforce monthly/jpost article that you are so defensive about.


Well I believe my case that I made and the facts disagree with HIS opinion

Oh and again we have no IAF people here to say their opinions so its IMO pointless to bring up their opinions on what happened to counter the results if we don’t have anyone from the IAF here to talk about it as well.

Oh and its quite clear that the U.S. also has a rep to maintain for if not they wouldnt be so vigorous in their defense here.

Shalom :D

[DLodge]

how IAF won in "wargames" against USA
200+ to 20+-
I'm sorry but this number is pure fantasy. A kill ratio that high against the USN is absurd. If you want to ask some pilots go ahead, they'll tell you the same thing.

As I said before, the IDF/AF is extremely professional and has an enviable combat record. But I don't think they're "the best." They're simply among "the best."

[tacticalmanta]

hehe, that was the count.. even if you stop and pull your hair, the number won't change

[DLodge]

Oh and its quite clear that the U.S. also has a rep to maintain for if not they wouldnt be so vigorous in their defense here.
Honestly speaking, only I am vigorous in the defense of the U.S. The American pilots really couldn't care less. They train with the Israelis guys a lot, they know that the IDF/AF pilots aren't as superior as they're often made out to be in Israel and they also know that the IDF/AF pilots know they're not as superior as they're often portrayed to be. Neither side seems to engage in the debate.

It's only silly kids like me who discuss it!

[tacticalmanta]

vice-versa.. Israeli pilots train the US. The US draws it's tactics from Israel. Precisely why a USAF captain joined the IAF and not the other way around.

[IDFM203]

Honestly speaking, only I am vigorous in the defense of the U.S. The American pilots really couldn't care less. They train with the Israelis guys a lot, they know that the IDF/AF pilots aren't as superior as they're often made out to be in Israel and they also know that the IDF/AF pilots know they're not as superior as they're often portrayed. Neither side seems to engage in the debate.

It's only silly kids like me who discuss it!hehe :D well you have brought some U.S. navy sources to make a defense so it is them as well, not to mention your claim of speaking to pilots and them telling you their opinions (which IMO of course they would say that)


btw this whole they know this and they know that is just thier obvious opinions, which is not backed up by the case I made nor by the factual results that had happened.

But of course no pilot from either country will debate this to each other for it is indeed not professional and hell they don’t need to, they have us doing it for them ;) (as both of us were not in any air force)

Shalom :D

[DLodge]

vice-versa.. Israeli pilots train the US. The US draws it's tactics from Israel. Precisely why a USAF captain joined the IAF and not the other way around.
Ummmm, okay. Israeli pilots train their U.S. counterparts? Where? Who? When? How often? I'm sure it's happened before, but I doubt it happens very much.

It makes sense that we would draw some tactics from the Israelis, you have far more experience in air-to-air combat than we do simply because of your geographical location.

And maybe the U.S. Captain just wanted to live in Israel? You know, aliyah and everything...

You believe that the Israeli Air Force is the best in the world. Fine, I can't disabuse you of that notion.

Like IDFM said, this is all based on opinions (hence is subjective) and is silly. Real pilots couldn't care less, they're too busy trying to figure out how to defeat the threats they might actually engage in a war with.

[IDFM203]

You believe that the Israeli Air Force is the best in the world. Go ahead, I can't disabuse you of that notion. and the same with us in that we cant disabuse you from what you believe though the difference is that I made a case for it (and it wasn’t just the lopsided results in the exercise that was my case but there was more) whereas you didnt nor cant!


Like IDFM said, this is all based on opinions (hence is subjective) and is silly. Real pilots couldn't care less, they're to busy trying to figure out how to defeat threats they might actually engage in a war with.well not exactly, for I didn’t say it was all based on opinions, rather that most of YOUR claims are based on only opinion but mine has more then that as my case and facts and events have shown (which are not on opinions).

(like the results in exercises, the air to air ratios in wars, the over 90 percent drop out rate etc…)

And yes no pilot from either air force will say who is better (for sure no IAF pilot will say that) or even engage in this kind of debate, but that cant stop us from doing so ;)

Shalom :D

[DLodge]

I've had enough debating. IDF, you asked for some more Red Flag images?

Here are some from 03-04...

http://www.f-16.net/PhotoGallery/album08/aax.sized.jpg
IDF/AF F-16D block 40, #673, seen here at the Nellis ramp for Red Flag 03-4 (Photo by JetMech)

http://www.f-16.net/PhotoGallery/album08/aay.sized.jpg
IDF/AF F-16D block 30, #036, seen here at the Nellis ramp for Red Flag 03-4 (Photo by JetMech)

And because they're so good looking, I've included more F-16 pics that aren't from Red Flag....

http://www.f-16.net/PhotoGallery/album08/afz.jpg

http://www.f-16.net/PhotoGallery/album08/aga.sized.jpg

http://www.f-16.net/PhotoGallery/album08/agb.sized.jpg

http://www.f-16.net/PhotoGallery/album08/abd.jpg

[IDFM203]

IDF, you asked for some more Red Flag images?

Thanks for bringing them here, though they aren’t showing up.

Anyways no worries I am familiar with that site so I will check it out.

Btw do you post on that site as well? And if so what is your screen name there?

Shalom :D

[DLodge]

Naw, I don't post there but I do visit it frequently.

Anyway, as this is thread is titled "F-15 Strike Eagle," I thought it'd be appropriate to post these awesome pics (that desert camo job sure beats dark grey!)...

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mrigby/Dcp_1890.jpg

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mrigby/Dcp_1893.jpg

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mrigby/Dcp_1894.jpg

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mrigby/Dcp_1895.jpg

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mrigby/Dcp_1897.jpg

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mrigby/Dcp_1898.jpg

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mrigby/Dcp_1903.jpg

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mrigby/Dcp_1905.jpg

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mrigby/Dcp_1896.jpg

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mrigby/Dcp_1900.jpg

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/mrigby/Dcp_1901.jpg

[Flagg]

Stop digging for excuses and just accept the fact that Israel has the best fighter pilots in the world.

That's like saying the Dallas Cowboys are the greatest football players in the world or California has the most beautiful women in the world...face it......it's not a defensible argument if you know much of anything about flying.....civil or tactical

Ask any fighter pilot in the world the following question.......

If you pit two fighter pilots in roughly comparable aircraft, who wins?

Every fighter pilot will ask....."Which pilot has the most flying hours? Because he/she will win every time."

[IDFM203]

Ok I realize now that its open season from some on this forum on tacticalmanta and on everything that he writes and I guess that’s up to him and all you guys but that doesn’t mean that everything he writes is wrong (even if he is a little more aggressive in his wording then some ;) )




Stop digging for excuses and just accept the fact that Israel has the best fighter pilots in the world.

That's like saying the Dallas Cowboys are the greatest football players in the world or California has the most beautiful women in the world...face it......it's not a defensible argument if you know much of anything about flying.....civil or tactical

Ask any fighter pilot in the world the following question.......

If you pit two fighter pilots in roughly comparable aircraft, who wins?

Every fighter pilot will ask....."Which pilot has the most flying hours? Because he/she will win every time." and if they have equal amounts of flying time?

Anyways I disagree that its not a defensible argument…I would say that perhaps it might be impossible to prove unless actual real combat between both but still I believe it is a defensible argument based on the case I made before (which I will repeat).

You see you say flying hours and I would say that they probably have equal amounts, I mean granted its an assumption but these are two very modern air forces and as such I can only imagine that they have the maximum flying hours that can be (or close to it)

You see my contention is indeed that the IAF on percentage has the most skilled fighter pilots in the world and as such his statement above is indeed correct

I say that based on three factors (of course another factor is the training hours and the intense training and no one can say that the IAF doesn’t have some of the most intense of any and I gather the same can be said for the USAF as well)

The first is the actual combat experience where it has proven itself as such where it has the most successful air to air combat success ratios of any other air force (Oh and there is still pilots flying now that fought in 1982 where the IAF had a 83 to 1 kill ratio)

The second is the mock exercises against the U.S. Germany, Britain (again on Britain I am not 100 percent sure that this even happened) where the IAF was extremely dominant in “defeating” the opposing air forces.

Lastly is the pilot training selection where IMO is the worlds toughest for to even get in there is a whole long evaluation process and the few that do make it have to look forward to a little over a 90 percent drop out rate, so only the very best of the best make it.

I believe that this is the toughest selection rate of anyone in the world and this indeed ensures that only the most skilled make it

All this combined IMO has made me come to the conclusion that I have come to.

On one final note, of course no IAF pilot or the U.S. pilot will engage in this kind of debate to each other but that doesn’t mean that we cant have a little fun here and that is all that I am doing :D

Shalom :D

[DLodge]

The first is the actual combat experience where it has proven itself as such where it has the most successful air to air combat success ratios of any other air force (Oh and there is still pilots flying now that fought in 1982 where the IAF had a 83 to 1 kill ratio)
If you want to examine combat records, take a look at the U.S. military's for once. Since Vietnam, where admittedly we lost the plot a bit, the U.S. has not lost a single airplane in A2A combat. I don't know how many kills we've scored, but since very few people would even dare to fight against us, our total is artificially small. I contend that if we had the plethora of opportunities that Israel did, our combat success ratio would be just as good.

The second is the mock exercises against the U.S. Germany, Britain (again on Britain I am not 100 percent sure that this even happened) where the IAF was extremely dominant in “defeating” the opposing air forces.
This is invalid for several reasons. For one, there is continued disagreement over whether the Israelis played "fair" in these exercises or exaggerated their kill ratios to perpetuate the myth of IDF/AF invincibility. There is also nothing to compare the Israeli "scores" against, since the U.S. never leaks reports regarding its air combat exercises. For all you or I know USAF and USN pilots might have just as impressive results against the Germans and British.

Lastly is the pilot training selection where IMO is the worlds toughest for to even get in there is a whole long evaluation process and the few that do make it have to look forward to a little over a 90 percent drop out rate, so only the very best of the best make it.I believe that this is the toughest selection rate of anyone in the world and this indeed ensures that only the most skilled make it
It's impossible to compare two different training programs without more detailed information. For one thing I'm curious what exactly the "90% dropout rate" refers to. Is that selection for fighters? For combat aircraft? 90% of selectees for which part of the course drop out? Mentioning figures without providing information on exactly what they refer to is useless. Furthermore, measuring dropout rate is not necessarily a measure of pilot skill. Just because more people fail doesn't mean the end product is any better.

[IDFM203]

”The first is the actual combat experience where it has proven itself as such where it has the most successful air to air combat success ratios of any other air force (Oh and there is still pilots flying now that fought in 1982 where the IAF had a 83 to 1 kill ratio)”


If you want to examine combat records, take a look at the U.S. military's for once. Since Vietnam, where admittedly we lost the plot a bit, the U.S. has not lost a single airplane in A2A combat. I don't know how many kills we've scored, but since very few people would even dare to fight against us, our total is artificially small. I contend that if we had the plethora of opportunities that Israel did, our combat success ratio would be just as good. Well first, I am counting in all of modern combat and in the time you had terrible results in vietnam or not as good ratios as……., we had very good ones in air to air combat in the Yom kipper and in the 1967 war (remember I am talking ONLY about air to air)

Secondly even since Vietnam, we had the Lebanese war were we dominated and had some of the best air to air ratios that has ever existed.

Now yes the U.S. hasn’t had much air to air since Vietnam, but the fact that the IAF has is an added advantage in training and in experience and in fact some of those very pilots that flew in 1982 still fly now.


”The second is the mock exercises against the U.S. Germany, Britain (again on Britain I am not 100 percent sure that this even happened) where the IAF was extremely dominant in “defeating” the opposing air forces”


This is invalid for several reasons. For one, there is continued disagreement over whether the Israelis played "fair" in these exercises or exaggerated their kill ratios to perpetuate the myth of IDF/AF invincibility. There is also nothing to compare the Israeli "scores" against, since the U.S. never leaks reports regarding its air combat exercises. For all you or I know USAF and USN pilots might have just as impressive results against the Germans and British. no there is no disagreement on whether the Israelis played fair, that is merely you speculating and frankly I find it hard to believe and I find it implausible that the IAF would be given an advantage like that…..it doesn’t need it ;)


Just because you speculate on something doesn’t mean that the facts and the results are wrong or should be in doubt

Now if you brought any proof to that then I would reconsider but you haven’t and as such the 220 to 20 results stand!!

Secondly you say the U.S. never leaks scores and yet you tell me about India.

And even if it doesn’t, other sdo and these things get reported somehow (I mean the IAF also didn’t release any results)

As for other results against other air forces, well for all I know the opposite happened, I mean we don’t know and again its mere speculation on what if’s

Btw I didn’t make my case on ONLY this for it is only a part of the overall case.


”Lastly is the pilot training selection where IMO is the worlds toughest for to even get in there is a whole long evaluation process and the few that do make it have to look forward to a little over a 90 percent drop out rate, so only the very best of the best make it.I believe that this is the toughest selection rate of anyone in the world and this indeed ensures that only the most skilled make it”


It's impossible to compare two different training programs without more detailed information. For one thing I'm curious what exactly the "90% dropout rate" refers to. Is that selection for fighters? For combat aircraft? 90% of selectees for which part of the course drop out? Mentioning figures without providing information on exactly what they refer to is useless. Furthermore, measuring dropout rate is not necessarily a measure of pilot skill. Just because more people fail doesn't mean the end product is any better. First to your last point.

No what you don’t get is that those who made it already have already passed numerous tests and evaluations and were qualified enough to make it (its not just anybody that comes and they are part of the 90 percent, no they are part of the small percent out of many that apply that make it and then out of that small percent you have that 90 percent dropout rate) and as such understand that those who fail it as part of the 90 percent are really all very capable pilots (or could be in other air forces) just the IAF has a higher standard (I believe the highest) that cuts out those that aren’t 100 perfect (for lack of any better way of describing it)

A for you other points. Well firstly I don’t know nor can I give you details info about the two training programs for even if I did know that is OPSEC and secondly we aren’t talking about comparing different training programs for I already said before that I can assume that they are about the same in intensity and flying hours etc… all I am saying is that it is well known that the IAF has a 90 percent drop out rate and I believe last time we got into this, you or someone said that no matter how you look at it, the USAF does not have any such high drop out rate nor is the pilot selection as tough as the IAF

Shalom :D

[cold0]

If you want to examine combat records, take a look at the U.S. military's for once. Since Vietnam, where admittedly we lost the plot a bit, the U.S. has not lost a single airplane in A2A combat. I don't know how many kills we've scored, but since very few people would even dare to fight against us, our total is artificially small. I contend that if we had the plethora of opportunities that Israel did, our combat success ratio would be just as good.


No exactly; US Navy lost a F/A-18C during the first night of IIPGW, shooted down by Iraqi MIG-25, It's the only US loss in air-to-air combat from december 1972.
For the combined USAF/US NAVY victories, the american fighters have shooted down, 4 Lybian fighters, 41 Iraqi aircrafts (during IIPRW, plus 2 after the war), 5 Serb MIG-29s during the 1999, and 5 J-21 during the 1994, plus 5-7 "claimed" victories.

No bad... :D

[DLodge]

No exactly; US Navy lost a F/A-18C during the first night of IIPGW, shooted down by Iraqi MIG-25, It's the only US loss in air-to-air combat from december 1972.
Right, Spike Speicher, I totally forgot. Nevertheless it's an admirable record and both the Israeli and U.S. A2A kill ratios are so lopsided that I don't think they indicate anything except that both countries' are exceptionally proficient at air combat.


no there is no disagreement on whether the Israelis played fair, that is merely you speculating and frankly I find it hard to believe and I find it implausible that the IAF would be given an advantage like that…..it doesn’t need it
American pilots have stated that the Israelis counted kills multiple times, in other words inflating their kill counts by "shooting down" planes that were already out of the fight. Even if that is untrue I presented several sources, some of whom either took part in or were given classified reports about the exercise in question, who all of them state that the ludicrous 40:1 ratio is BS and that the truth is both sides were pretty evenly matched. The only source for the questionable 40:1 or 220:20 figures as reported by the Jerusalem Post, Air Forces Monthly and other periodicals is an anonymous IDF/AF member. I'm inclined to disbelieve those numbers in light of further and more pursuasive evidence (and also because they're impossibly high).

As for the 90% dropout rate, well I don't give it much weight. Without an in-depth examination of the training methods for both countries it is impossible to determine which is more selective. And even if Israel is more selective, which they could be only because they have many fewer pilot slotss available, that doesn't mean that their pilots are any better than those who were selected differently in other Air Force's.

Regarding the intensity of training, allow me to present again a portion of The Hook article I quoted earlier. Now let me remind you that the purpose behind the article was to argue for an improvement in USN air combat training. It would actually have been in the authors' benefit to prove that the IDF/AF pilots had swept the floor with the U.S. fighter jocks, but he says this instead...

We sent in (with minimal adult supervision) no kidding nuggets, for the benefit of their training. Unlike their IAF counterparts who had a complete ACM workup in preparation for the det; our kids, after a month or two of cruise, were not even ACM current when we arrived in-country. ...The bottom line is that our SFWTI/Top Gun trained JO's with their top-notch machines, weapons and superior training have no match anywhere on this planet! These kids are so good it's scary. I can only keep up with them after 25 years of Navy flying and 6000 hours in "pointy nose" airplanes, by cheating at every opportunity.

[IDFM203]

Before I go on I just want to make clear that I have nothing but resect for the U.S. pilots and I do consider them to amongst the best,…this debate here for me does not negate what I just said


No exactly; US Navy lost a F/A-18C during the first night of IIPGW, shooted down by Iraqi MIG-25, It's the only US loss in air-to-air combat from december 1972.
Right, Spike Speicher, I totally forgot. Nevertheless it's an admirable record and both the Israeli and U.S. A2A kill ratios are so lopsided that I don't think they indicate anything except that both countries' are exceptionally proficient at air combat. Indeed both are exceptionally proficient now but I cant see how you can compare kill ratios….in every war against the same types of soviets planes that you fought against, the IAF has had a dominate air to air kill ratio, that is NOT the case for the USAF in all of its wars and also in general the IAF has much more air to air kills.

But yeah both indeed are top air forces and that is never in doubt, what we are arguing about is who is THE……….well you know ;)

American pilots have stated that the Israelis counted kills multiple times, in other words inflating their kill counts by "shooting down" planes that were already out of the fight. Even if that is untrue I presented several sources, some of whom either took part in or were given classified reports about, the exercise in question. All of them state that the ludicrous 40:1 ratio is BS and that the truth is both sides were pretty evenly matched. First of all when have American pilots stated anything and how many have and where have they done so??

I haven’t seen where you brought down proof of any advantage to IAF pilots exercises and those U.S. pilots talking are either saving face or rather there wasn’t any pilots talking.

Also understand that the IAF did not give out any official results but rather it was leaked from someone that was there.

The IAF doesn’t need to pad any results and certainly wouldn’t make up a 220 to 20 score if it didn’t have any truth to it.

I mean even without this exercise or lopsided results, the IAF rep. is ok and I strongly take issue with your ridicules comment before that the IAF needs this for their rep.…. believe me their rep. is intact even without any such exercise and your insistence on what you said is IMO mere juvenile defensive face saving.

Lastly if you look at the comment in red, it seems like they are contradicting themselves (and actually goes along with what I have been saying) and as such I have to even further question the above statements in generel.

As for the 90% dropout rate, well I don't give it much weight. Without an in-depth examination of the training methods for both countries it is impossible to determine which is more selective. well we already established that both have almost the same rigorous training and intensity.

(I mean I might feel that the IAF has more but for the sake of arguments I put it at even, I mean no one can argue that the IAF training is not top notch or intense)

So selection is a factor (not the only fact in my case but a factor nonetheless) as to the actual quality of the pilots and IMO the tougher the selection rate (and 90 percent IMO is the highest out there) the better quality of pilots in terms of skill and other things an air force has


And even if Israel is more selective, which they could be only because they have many fewer pilot slotss available, yes indeed there are fewer pilot slots selected but still that ensures that every pilot is top quality or of better quality (remember its not quantity that counts but quality that makes all the difference) for indeed the USAF and USN have more slots and IMO that forces them not to have such a high drop out rate and that results in IMO a bit less of a emphasis on nothing but the very best of the best make it in all of its slots.


Regarding the intensity of training, allow me to present again a portion of The Hook article I quoted earlier. Now let me remind you that the purpose behind the article was to argue for an improvement in USN air combat training. It would actually have been in the authors' benefit to prove that the IDF/AF pilots had swept the floor with the U.S. fighter jocks, but he says this instead... hahah ;) that is no proof whatsoever and I am sorry to say this but in fact I just look at him as trying to save face and I am reinforced by that by the juvenile language and petty bravado that he displayed in the way he wrote that article which it is clear that it cant be taken seriously.

Secondly……….

We sent in (with minimal adult supervision) no kidding nuggets, for the benefit of their training. yeah like the IAF even needs this :roll:

Listen this is BS for its not like the IAF even needs any nuggets for training and to insinuate as such is absurd and frankly not believable.

I mean if it did happen did the IAF know about it? Did he say anything to that effect?

The IAF and the USAF and USN are top air forces and with top air forces I find it very hard to believe and frankly implausible that the U.S. would give nuggets for our benefit.

No when two top air forces train they do so at top level for ONLY with that can one find out their weakness and what they need to improve on and so forth.

Shalom :D

[DLodge]

Indeed both are exceptionally proficient now but I cant see how you can compare kill ratios….in every war against the same types of soviets planes that you fought against, the IAF has had a dominate air to air kill ratio, that is NOT the case for the USAF in all of its wars and also in general the IAF has much more air to air kills.
There haven't been enough air-to-air encounters against the same type of Russian aircraft to accurately measure anything. According to acig.org, the bulk of IDF/AF kills since 1974 (for reasons of comparison) were against Mig-21s and Mig-23s with a few Su-22s and Mig-25s scattered amongst them. I don't need to tell you that none of those aircraft are particularly suited to air combat. They are all at least a generation behind the IDF/AF aircraft, primarily F-16s and F-15s. The IDF/AF has only scored 2 (or possibly 4, depending on what you want to believe) kills against a worthy opponent, the Mig-29. On the other hand, besides killing practically defenseless aircraft, the U.S. has shot down either 10 or 12 Mig-29s, some of which were armed with the very latest in A2A missile technology (during the various Balkan conflicts). That's not to say that the Israelis couldn't kill loads of Mig-29s because they obviously could, but it shows that the kill ratios are not directly comparable.

And to go back to the Vietnam War is pointless since the entire U.S. air combat training program was revamped afterwards. If you compared the IDF/AF and the USAF/USN in 1966 I'd say the Israelis were far superior, the same is not true today.


I haven’t seen where you brought down proof of any advantage to IAF pilots exercises and those U.S. pilots talking are either saving face or rather there wasn’t any pilots talking.
From a USN Hornet pilot...

The 10:1 kill ratio posted by the IAF is bogus for a couple of reasons. First the IAF set up the ROE for those engagements such that they were allowed BVR shots and the Navy/Marine Corps team was not. Secondly, the Hornets and Tomcats were flying from the boat and as such were on a fuel ladder that limited the amount of time they could spend in blower. To top it off the Hornets were configured double ugly (two external fuel tanks, one on the belly and one on a wing station) which imposes an AOA limit. The IAF was launching last minute from their own airfields and were typically in slick configurations. I think you will find that the ratios are more even when the rules of the fight are more even. I take nothing away from the IAF guys but I would put a top Air Farce or Navy pointy nosed dude against them anytime in a fair fight.
And the article I posted from The Hook, which was written by a USN CAG with 6000 hours in pointy-nosed jets. I doubt he would be so immature as to feel the need to "save face" by lying in print. That's two sources, both of whom happen to say exactly the same thing, versus one anonymous IDF/AF source who leaked something to Air Forces Monthly. Who would you believe?


Lastly if you look at the comment in red, it seems like they are contradicting themselves (and actually goes along with what I have been saying) and as such I have to even further question the above statements in generel.
How is it contradictory? Everything I've posted says the IDF/AF and the USN/USAF are about even.


The IAF doesn’t need to pad any results and certainly wouldn’t make up a 220 to 20 score if it didn’t have any truth to it.
I think it was partially true, due to the ROEs, restrictions and equipment differences I mentioned before. And the IDF/AF doesn't need to pad any results but a lone patriotic individual who wants to make a splash in the next month's edition of AFM might...


that is no proof whatsoever and I am sorry to say this but in fact I just look at him as trying to save face and I am reinforced by that by the juvenile language and petty bravado that he displayed in the way he wrote that article which it is clear that it cant be taken seriously.
And the crazy kill ratio figures can be? They're simply ludicrous, beyond absurd. With equal ROEs the IDF/AF could never post such high numbers unless they were going up against a fleet of Spads and Sopwith Camels. It's inconceivable. If the IDF/AF had actually massacre the Navy guys the ratio would still only be somewhere around 6:1 or 7:1.


yes indeed there are fewer pilot slots selected but still that ensures that every pilot is top quality or of better quality (remember its not quantity that counts but quality that makes all the difference) for indeed the USAF and USN have more slots and IMO that forces them not to have such a high drop out rate and that results in IMO a bit less of a emphasis on nothing but the very best of the best make it in all of its slots
I'm still skeptical about what exactly the 90% figure refers to, but no matter. IMO the USN and USAF are as selective as they need to be (which is pretty damn selective) to ensure that every pilot is extremely capable. And that seems to be born out by the fact that the IDF/AF and American forces look to be about equal.


yeah like the IAF even needs this :roll:
Listen this is BS for its not like the IAF even needs any nuggets for training and to insinuate as such is absurd and frankly not believable.
You misunderstand the article, the nuggets were sent in not to help the IDF/AF but because the nuggets, being rookie pilots, don't have as much ACM training as the other squadron members and need to maximize their training opportunities. Because the USN did not see the exercise as anything more than an opportunity to learn (not as a grudge match between the two top air forces in the world) they felt it would be best if the pilots who could benefit the most from the training got to participate.


No when two top air forces train they do so at top level for ONLY with that can one find out their weakness and what they need to improve on and so forth.
This is just plain wrong. If they trained at the top level they'd get nothing out of the exercise because everyone would stay BVR and fire off MRMs 'till they were all dead. Nobody would learn a thing! When the two top air forces train, when any air forces train, they do so in rigidly controlled scenarios designed to hone specific aspects of each other's fighting ability. That is an incontrovertible fact and I can provide numerous quotes if you'd like.

[IDFM203]

There haven't been enough air-to-air encounters against the same type of Russian aircraft to accurately measure anything. The bulk of IDF/AF kills since 1974 (for reasons of comparison) were against Mig-21s and Mig-23s with a few Su-22s and Mig-25s scattered amongst them.

And to go back to the Vietnam War is pointless since the entire U.S. air combat training program was revamped afterwards. If you compared the IDF/AF and the USAF/USN in 1966 I'd say the Israelis were far superior, the same is not true today. well first of all since Vietnam the U.S. hasn’t faced much at all in terms of real air to air.

Secondly Israel did face and it wasn’t only mig 21 and mig 23’s

Thirdly regardless, the air to air war in 1982 was before any advanced pythons or things like that and as such it was indeed a air to air war which relied a lot on pilot skill and training more so then anything.

Fourthly, in the times of Vietnam, which is really what I was referring to with the same types of aircraft (for after you didn’t really have any air to air combat), the USAF wasn’t very successful in air to air while Israel in the same time of Yom kipper war and the 1967 was indeed very successful in air to air.

Now you say since then you have improved well you haven’t proved that (ok you didn’t get much opportunities) and yes in exercises the IAF was dominate

Also remember the higher pilot selection where all combined IMO makes a case for what I say

And again yes you haven’t had much air to air but we have and that IMO that is a bit of a advantage in training and in experience to have in your pilot training, not to mention that there are still pilots that fly now that were involved in those air to air engagements in 1982

On the other hand, besides killing practically defenseless aircraft, the U.S. has shot down 13 Mig-29s, some of which were armed with the very latest in A2A missile technology (during the various Balkan conflicts). either way this is very limited air to air combat and it doesn’t even come close to the amount of air to air combat that the IAF saw in 82.

So just for accuracies sake……………..As for Mig-29’s actually in 1988 Israeli planes shot down two Syrian Mig-29’s and again in 2001 where again IAF planes shot down two Mig-29’s

As for the U.S. well as far as I know the U.S. in air to air combat only shot down five Mig-29’s and that was in 1999.

If you have a source that counters mine then post it here for I am not saying mine is the all knowing truth on this, though I would like to see another source if indeed it was 13 (I took my stats from ACIG.org link)



From a USN Hornet pilot... First out of curiosity, where was this published and how can I verify that he was a pilot that took part in those exercises?

Secondly I find it a bit unprofessional that he would comment but that is just me.

Thirdly from the way he wrote it seemed like he was saving face where he used bravado phrases like “I would put a top Air Farce or Navy pointy nosed dude against them anytime in a fair fight” I read something like that and the wording that he used and IMO it just discredits what he wrote and IMO it shows a lack of majority and professionalism to phrase it as such.

Also the emphasis that he uses seems too defensive for me to outright believe and it seems like he feels like he needs to uphold the rep of the USN and as such of course he is making excuses as he makes.

On final thing on what he wrote.

He writes “I think you will find that the ratios are more even when the rules of the fight are more even” or “First the IAF set up the ROE for those engagements such that they were allowed BVR shots and the Navy/Marine Corps team was not” which implies that the engagements were not even and that the IAF were given certian advantages and that is what I was referring to before by contradictions by your or his (I wasn’t sure who said this) statment before when you posted “the truth is both sides were pretty evenly matched” which now insinuates that it was fair afterall.

Besides all this, again for ROE’s I find it hard to believe and frankly implausible that the IAF would be given this or that we would need it for we don’t.

Now I don’t have any IAF pilot to talk about this for they don’t discuss this publicly so with all due respect I guess you have your mind made up and I have mine.

From my perspective all I see is spin from some in the USN!!


And the article I posted from The Hook, which was written by a USN CAG with 6000 hours in pointy-nosed jets. I doubt he would be so immature as to feel the need to "save face" by lying in print. That's two sources, both of whom happen to say exactly the same thing, versus one anonymous IDF/AF source who leaked something to Air Forces Monthly. Who would you believe? Well someone is lying, now it can either be him, the air force monthly or those military sources that they quote.

Either way there is no definitive proof, however I can see the need if those results were accurate as I wrote before, I can defiantly see the need for a defensive saving face or rather I shall use the word spin on it.


And if you haven’t ever seen anyone in the military put a spin on things (especially when things go “bad”), well then you are not living in this planet that’s for sure.

Listen I say saving face you say not, and perhaps I used the wrong term but again to me it seems like he is using a spin on it and to me IMO I can defiantly see why and that is most defiantly plausible (I mean its not like anyone in the military hasn’t ever used spin before :roll: ;) )

”Lastly if you look at the comment in red, it seems like they are contradicting themselves (and actually goes along with what I have been saying) and as such I have to even further question the above statements in general”

How is it contradictory? Everything I've posted says the IDF/AF and the USN/USAF are about even. I meant before in terms of ROE’s and such where it now says that they were evenly matched.

But yeah ok so you mean just in general, correct? and not on these exercises , ok I got you, well I disagree (as my case shows)

The IAF doesn’t need to pad any results and certainly wouldn’t make up a 220 to 20 score if it didn’t have any truth to it”


I think it was partially true, due to the ROEs, restrictions and equipment differences I mentioned before. And the IDF/AF doesn't need to pad any results but a lone patriotic individual who wants to make a splash in the next month's edition of AFM might... perhaps but I can also see how some in your end would want to put a spin on things.

Listen without any official IAF pilot conversations to confirm or deny, I guess your quotes are as suspect to me as mine our to you.

I mean all we have is one side and to me that looks like spin.

There isn’t anything else I can add to that.


And the crazy kill ratio figures can be? They're simply ludicrous, beyond absurd. With equal ROEs the IDF/AF could never post such high numbers unless they were going up against a fleet of Spads and Sopwith Camels. It's inconceivable. If the IDF/AF had actually massacre the Navy guys the ratio would still only be somewhere around 6:1 or 7:1. listen don’t speak to an Israeli about numbers and how impossible they are…I mean with your logic, we should have never have won a war with how outnumbered and in years past even out technologied (yes new made up word) we were.

Anything can happen and in fact the score indeed is so outrages that no one would be foolish enough to lie about it if for precisely the reason that of course no one would believe him.

I mean if I were lying I would make a believable score and not this

To me it is so outrages that I actually believe those scores :D

Oh and again you can’t prove at all that we had different ROE’s


I'm still skeptical about what exactly the 90% figure refers to, but no matter. IMO the USN and USAF are as selective as they need to be (which is pretty damn selective) to ensure that every pilot is extremely capable..indeed the USAF is as selective as they need to be, there is no argument there.

I would say the IAF is as well, my argument is that the IAF is more selective and as such on percentage we filed a higher quality in terms of pilot skill then the USAF or any others.



You misunderstand the article, the nuggets were sent in not to help the IDF/AF but because the nuggets, being rookie pilots, ok thanks for explaining that word.

Well first of all how do you know the IAF didn’t send their nuggets as well.

I know in infantry exercises against various U.S. forces (Like the Marines) the IDF sends in their first year soldiers in unit that are called in Hebrew “tz’ereem” and not the more experienced ones and its from regular units and not from its best units.

I mean I find it very illogical that the IAF would go in this with a hige adavnatge for that doent benefit the IAF at all.

This is supposed ot be a mutual benifical excerscie to see where both can learn from or see where both need to improve or what not and not for the IAF to have an advantage and then beat up on the kids for that doesn serve the IAF training at all.


No IMO it was fair and BOTH had the same types of conditions or close to it and well the results are as such simply because the IAF outperformed……….ahh you know what I am saying ;)



Because the USN did not see the exercise as anything more than an opportunity to learn (not as a grudge match between the two top air forces in the world) they felt it would be best if the pilots who could benefit the most from the training got to participate. Indeed the same with the IAF and they approach it the same way and as such I find it very hard to believe and frankly inconceivable that the IAF would be given huge advantages for that is NOT conducive to a learning environment for one side as I explained above

Understand that this grudge match is only between me and you (which you clearly as well are fully engaged in this with me) and not between these pilots or even between personal from both air forces (as me and you were not in either air forces).

No when two top air forces train they do so at top level for ONLY with that can one find out their weakness and what they need to improve on and so forth.

This is just plain wrong. If they trained at the top level they'd get nothing out of the exercise because everyone would stay BVR and fire off MRMs 'till they were all dead. Nobody would learn a thing! No you misunderstand what I mean, what I meant is that at top levels for top air forces is where they switch off and do all sorts of different sceneries with all sorts of advantages and disadvantages given or taken away on a rotating bases between the two so that BOTH can learn from and my contention that in the whole exercises they BOTH got a fair mix of all different situations and a fair mix of all different advantages and disadvantages and both had at times advantages and disadvantages and to believe that IAF pilots the whole time had a advantage IMO is faulty and implausible and not believable at all.

Shalom

[DLodge]

Alright, I guess at this point all we are arguing over is semantics. Unfortunately we've both run out of sources, so neither of us is able to really make a new impression on the other's opinion. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And just for the record, I have tremendous admiration for the IDF/AF. As the article I posted says, the Heyl Ha'avir is "a very professional force and unmatched in dedication and discipline." I personally wouldn't put them any higher than the various U.S. air arms in terms of overall capability, but they are the only ones in the world I can see consistently matching us in performance and equipment across the board. You feel they're the best bar none, okay. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Currently my ambitions are oriented towards flying for the U.S. military, but who knows what will happen down the road? Someday I might make aliyah...

[DLodge]

BTW, even if I don't the IDF/AF is "the best" I sure as hell think your paint schemes are. That F-15I looks amazing!

[IDFM203]

Yeah we will just have to agree to disagree, though I still think my OVERALL case I made still stands strong ;) :D

Anyways I will give you that you were a strong “adversary” here on this forum and in this debate and my hats off to you for that.

I enjoyed it :D

Just understand that I love the U.S and its military and I have nothing but great respect for it and all of its personal and certainly its pilots.

I want to make clear that was never in doubt.

I want to wish you good luck on a future career in flying for the U.S. Military and perhaps you can report back here after you go through a joint exercise to finally once and for all give us a first hand account to put this exercise debate to a rest ;) :D

As for making aliyah, yeah certainly by all means, though don’t expect it to be easy to make it into the IAF for again the selection rate is ……….etc. etc… ;)

But of course either through you being a pilot in your air force to making aliyah to just being a tourist, I am sure you will be in Israel one day!

Btw my turn to play dumb, are you perhaps Jewish are was that (aliyah) a total joke?

Shalom :D

.

[DLodge]

Yeah good times, I certainly learned a lot about the IDF.

I'm half-Jewish on my dad's side. I never had a bar'mitzvah either so I'm not really Jewish.

[born_to_kill]

The law of return states that if you have at least one jewish grandparent you count as jewish.... So you could make Aliya if you really wanted to

[cold0]

So just for accuracies sake……………..As for Mig-29’s actually in 1988 Israeli planes shot down two Syrian Mig-29’s and again in 2001 where again IAF planes shot down two Mig-29’s

As for the U.S. well as far as I know the U.S. in air to air combat only shot down five Mig-29’s and that was in 1999.

If you have a source that counters mine then post it here for I am not saying mine is the all knowing truth on this, though I would like to see another source if indeed it was 13 (I took my stats from ACIG.org link)


So, if you know acig.org ( probably the best internet site dedicated to air combat :D ), IDFM203, it's better that you read all the "kills reports".
Under US Air-to-Air Victories during the Operation Desert Storm
you will find other 5 victorie against Fulcrum, + another (22 January '91), without references, and another claimed, but not confirmed, in during Souther Watch (January '93).
So USAF have 10 kills + 2 probable against hte Fulcrum.

Regards,

[DLodge]

Alright, I did some further searching about the exercise we've been arguing about and came up with this...

This story started with an (unsigned) article published in AFM, issue September 1999, under the title:

ISRAEL SLAYS TOP GUNS
A recent joint exercise between the IDF/AF and the US Navy 6th Fleet pilots apparently resulted in a through routing of the USN pilots. Israeli pilots have not participated in joing exercises before (sic), though they have flown with various flight academies as students or guests.

The exercise in question recently took place in the Israeli Negev skies and saw US Navy 6th Fleet pilots carry out a combat ismulation against the Israelis.

The exercise involved engagements between israel F-16s and US Navy F-14 and F/A-18 fighters. The results have not been officialy published, reportedly in order to save the reputations of the USN pilots, but unofficial Israeli military sources report one of those dogfights ended with the score of 40:1 in favour of the Israeli pilots. Islrael claims to have "downed" 220 USN aircraft for the loss of just 20 of its own aircraft. The IDF/AF has refused to comment on these reports.



On 24 September 1999 - obviously after the author has got his copy of AFM - the Jerusalem Post published the following article:

IAF whips US pilots in exercise
By Arieh O'Sullivan

TEL AVIV - A recent joint exercise between the IAF and US Navy Sixth Fleet pilots apparently resulted in a thorough routing of the US pilots, according to the latest edition of Air Force Monthly.

The American-based magazine said the exercise in question took place in the Negev skies and involved engagements between IAF F-16s and US Navy F-14s and F/A-18s.

Quoting Israeli military sources, the magazine said one of the exercises ended with the score of 40:1 in favor of the IAF. The magazine said Israel "downed" 220 aircraft for the loss of just 20 of its own.

It said that the results have not been officially published "to save the reputations of the US Navy pilots."

The magazine did not say when the exercise took place. But security sources said that the dogfights took place about three months ago. They said the exercise was the first time that Israeli pilots actually took part in the maneuvers and didn't just give logistical support. Israeli pilots have also flown with various flight academies as guests or students.

The IAF said it does not give detailed results of training exercises. But air force commanders were said to be incensed by the report. While refusing to confirm or deny the report, military sources said neither Israel or the US had officially released the "scores."

"We showed an arrogance we didn't mean to display," one senior IAF officer said.

Interestingly, there should be indications, that the information about this exercise was "leaked" shortly before the House Armed Forces Services Committee was to vote on funds for F-22!




On r.a.m. newsgroup, a retired USN Cdr. P. C. Chisholm commented the whole as follows:

"Maybe we oughta let Isreal pay for their own military, and see how they do....

The USN guys were probably more concerned about getting aboard than playing games with the IAD.

When I flew the F-14, against the Egyptians in an 'exercise', they claimed they kicked our butts also, but we had to fly a LONG way to get there, had no wartime tanking support and they broke every ROE that we agreed upon beforehand, just to get gun camera film from the Mig-21s of the F-14.

These exercises mean little....The exercises, they didn't test anything of importance that would be needed during a conflict. They just turned into touchy-feely things. I even flew a mission against the Egyptians with a smelly Eqyptian general in my trunk (F-14). All he said on the ICS was 'yes' and then barfed, quite fun...This dude was supposedly a MIG-21 Ace from the '73 war....just doin a little tailchase. maybe because he had so much room back there, instead of a Mig21 cockpit, or maybe he was hung over or sumthin. Even got a no-grade (a very bad note for landing aboard carrier) when I came back aboard, trying to talk to this guy and listen to his ICS yaking.... After wandering around Alexandria and seeing how they do biz...wonder how they shot anybody down in former conflicts...

Isreal, in spite of our paying for thier military, spy on us, are rude to us. When USN guys went to Isreal to learn how to fly the KFIR, they were treated like prisoners, not allowed to walk around the base w/o an escort, not allowed to go anyehere but to fly, eat, sleep. To say the Isrealis are grateful is an overstatement...."




Subsequently, there were fierce discussions regarding this "news", with one side explaining about the IDF/AF being "invincible in dogfights" - or not, while those defending the USN said, Tomcats and Hornets would "certainly win" in the BVR regime.

The exercise in question happened in March 1988, and was organized between the fighter squadrons of the CVW-3 (i.e. VF-32 with F-14Bs, and F/A-18s from VFA-37 and VFA-105), then embarked aboard the USS Enterprise, but for this exercise stationed on one of the Israeli airfields (obviously Lt.Cdr. (ret.) Chisholm did not know about this).

In 2001 there was finally an answer to these reports, published in the USN's "Hook" magazine:


Admiral: My apologies for not addressing this issue sooner, but I've been very busy with the best job in the world (CAG), getting us settled on the Navy's newest carrier CVN 75, USS Harry S. Truman, and gathering parts/people for our deployment in Nov. George Michael has hit the nail on the head, and then some. Although I concur with the article's assertion that we need more/better adversary support for the Fleet, the newspaper article (I forget the author's name) was obviously not well researched, and he should be embarrassed to be a mouthpiece for the Israeli propaganda mill.

On our last cruise on Enterprise (CVN 65) in 98/99, we participated in the first officially sanctioned DACT det with the IAF. We sent Tomcats and Hornets to an Israeli base for a 10 day det, and we did get some excellent training that we have recommended to other air wings. However, the unclas version of what really transpired is as follows:

The kill ratio that started with approx. a 5 or 6 to 2 ratio in favor of the IAF (the claim of 20 to 1 is so absurd it doesn't deserve any more comment), ended after a steep learning curve to be pretty close to 1 to 1 at the end of the det. This is impressive when you consider that:

1. We sent in (with minimal adult supervision) no kidding nuggets, for the benefit of their training. Unlike their IAF counterparts who had a complete ACM workup in preparation for the det; our kids, after a month or two of cruise, were not even ACM current when we arrived in-country. 2. The scenarios were carefully scripted, in their backyard. Not only did the IAF get the low blocks (so we could look down at their brown camouflage against the desert floor), the roles were pre-briefed to offensive/defensive setups (ala USAF RTU sorties), with role reversals only allowed in the latter stages of the det.

In addition, suffice it to say we were not allowed by the scenario to optimize our real world tactics/weapons. On reflection, that is a probably a good thing since who knows what today's friend will do tomorrow.

I think the reasoning behind the IAF version is that the Israeli's believe (rightly so) that a critical factor in their defense is to preserve the mystique of the "invincible" IAF fighter pilot. While the IAF is a very professional force and unmatched in dedication and discipline, one must look at their adversaries and the day/VFR environment they operate in. We have trained with and/or fought against every major air force in the Middle East, and should remember that in every case, the IAF is going up against "Jerry's Kids.

The bottom line is that our SFWTI/Top Gun trained JO's with their top-notch machines, weapons and superior training have no match anywhere on this planet! These kids are so good it's scary. I can only keep up with them after 25 years of Navy flying and 6000 hours in "pointy nose" airplanes, by cheating at every opportunity. I would put them up against any air force, any time and be absolutely certain we will come out on top.

Please feel free to pass this on, and edit if you see fit.

V/R, check 6, Brick."


The story - as usually - looks very much different from the other side.



The background behind this story is the same as it often happens during similar exercises: the training is staged for different puposes (of political, tactical, exercising nature etc.). In this case, the USN pilots - most of which were novices and inexperienced any way (not to talk about the endemic lack of air-to-air training in the USN since years) - were sent to Israel to train dogfighting. They were not permitted to use (i.e. simulate the use) AIM-54s, nor to fire Sparrows over certain ranges, so to learn certain things.

Let me make one thing clear: I do not intend to "defend" the USN pilots. I had too many negative experiences with them (as opposed by so many pilots from so many other air forces), and consider (at least most of them) them ignorants par excellence. But, facts are facts. One of the facts in this case is that there is an (un-written) rule not to talk about the "results" of such exercises in the public. When, just for example, an Austrian Draken-pilot only indicated in an interview for the press here that the Drakens beat RAF Harriers in a similar exercie (as we later found out with x:0 result), he was grounded, and almost court-martialed. In Israel, there is obviously no similar rule - especially not when there is something that can be used to support the usual "The Sun comes out in the East, and the IDF/AF rules the skies" theory.


Anyway, shortly after this exercise, the VF-32 sent four F-14Bs out of the Ionian Sea to "strike" a simulated target in Israel: a trip of 1.100km in one way. The Tomcats were armed with LGBs, AIM-54s, Sparrows, and Sidewinders - i.e. heavily loaded.

Not a single IDF/AF fighter sent to intercept them managed to come close enough to use own missiles.

Of course, that time there was no similar report about "Slain Top Guns" in the press anywhere...
_________________
Tom Cooper
Editor, ACIG.org
This dude is an arrogant prick, and much of his info is often incorrect/questionable. That said, I do think he's correct in this instance and the point he makes regarding the "un-written" rule about disclosing exercise results strikes me as being spot-on.

[DLodge]

More from Tom Cooper:

Regarding exercises with the Israelis...

in general it is so that before any such exercises the leading officers of both sides met to agree the RoEs. These include the place of exercise, communications, safety and rescue measures, purpose and results of the exercise, number of engagements and number of involved aircraft, etc. Usually, the exercises have very strict rules, with each side attempting to train specific elements from its sylabdus.

Based on interviews with dozens of pilots that participated in such exercises, I can only conclude that their RoEs do not usually really resemble any kind of "real" situations: such exercises are rather organized in order to train the pilots only for specific situation that could happen - but which would always be a part of a "larger picture" we usually consider "real". Consequently, most of such exercises should be considered as "unserious" or at least "unreal" by the outsiders. The insiders know why they do them the way they do.

Now, with their confined airspace and problems with identification, for example, the Israelis prefer close-in combats, while the US forces - with their superior information-gathering - prefer stand-off, medium-range engagements.

When these two met, then usually in order the US forces to give their pilots some "proper" training in short-range combats: this fits the Israelis usually very fine, as they can thus "hone" their skills against a very potent - albeit certainly not a "perfect" opponent.

Then such things "happen" like some idiots using the "results" of such exercises for claiming the IDF/AF "superior even to USN/USAF units".

This, however, is a load of nonsence: winners from such exercises are really both sides. The US-pilots get also some very serious close-range experience, while the Israelis learn what to expect from an opponent depending on the MRAAMs and having superior information-gathering systems. Even more so, such exercises are of immense use for the development of future tactics and further R+D for systems and weapons.

That's the same like what is being done currently in India - and directly opposite to a situation where RAF Harriers met Austrian Drakens and then permanently lose in dogfights: that was a case where the RAF learned nothing, then, instead of doing a brainstorming, and learning their lessons, they started to bitterly complain around - so much, that the matter eventually became public (at least in Austria).

Take that case as a negative example for the profis: the one when the CVW-17 and the IDF/AF exercised in march 1999 was actually a highly positive example for both involved sides, and a very negative when it comes to the publicity - especially as somebody on the Israeli side proved a stupid that couldn't keep his mouth shut, but was spreading useless nonsence around.
_________________
Tom Cooper
Editor, ACIG.org
Again, while I question much of Tom's factual information, I do agree with his more abstract points about how exercises are organized and run.

[cold0]

More from www.acig.org (what a wealth of information )


I know that you would like it!!! :D

[IDFM203]

Boy I thought we laid this to rest :roll:

Ok understand a few things.

I said before if you read it, that I do NOT consider ACIG.org to be the all knowing truth (for they shortchange IAF kills where other sources have it a bit higher then the number they have) and frankly after reading the articles from Tom and some of those pilots, and the language and rhetoric that they used (which went far above just talking about these air to air exercises) its quite clear that USN and its countryman are out in full spin mode.

Can I prove it, no, but the language is so outrages and so full of negative putdowns of the IAF and even Israel and such bravado for the USN that for me to take what Tom or what some of the pilots wrote seriously would be absurd.

It simply reeks of spin.

Anyways be it Tom or a USN pilot or anyone that’s not Israeli, talking about this is pointless for I have not nor can I bring any Israeli pilots here to say their version or what their perceptions of the U.S. or the USN are, for they don’t talk about it for its unprofessional to publicly talk about it and as such they don’t.

Secondly again there was no official IAF announcements or anything of this kind, it was leaked by someone that was there and frankly after reading your articles, he or those air force monthly/jpost articles IMO seems more reasonable then some of the spin and bravado rhetoric in defense of the USN that I have seen from Tom and others.

Thirdly I want to repeat my point to one of the statements that you highlighted in bold ”Then such things "happen" like some idiots using the "results" of such exercises for claiming the IDF/AF "superior even to USN/USAF units” and while I fully understand why you highlighted this phrase, understand that I never used this as a sole barometer for my claims. NO, it was just a part of my OVERALL case that had much more factors then just these exercises to make my case. I hope that is very clear to you.

I love the U.S. but I have come to realize that a lot of Americans cant deal with anything short of them being the best in everything and while I certainly applaud that attitude and IMO it should indeed be something to strive for (and indeed in a lot of places you are the best), I got news for you, your not in everything and IMO the IAF pilots have over the years and in numerous factors proven themselves to be the best in the world and it just seems that some very proud Americans, no matter what, refuse to accept that reality.

Oh well…………….. :roll:

Shalom :D

[cold0]

The kill ratio that started with approx. a 5 or 6 to 2 ratio in favor of the IAF

IDFM203, I'm not american so I don't have any interests in defending the DLodge, or the US Navy, point of view.

But I think that a kill ratio of 3 to 1 for the IAF is indeed a good result, expecially if you think that both sides have fighter with similar capacities (F-14, F-18 vs IAF F-16) and very well trained pilots. Frankly a 20 to 1 results it's less credible.

Just remember that it's only an exercise and that the rules of engangement can give an edge at one side; and remeber the pride of every fighter pilot, no one like to loose!!! :D

Regards,

[IDFM203]

cold0,

Well ok I hear you and I respect what you wrote (as I do with Dlodge as well, just I disagree), but I still have two hang-ups of this.

First is this ROE's that I just don’t believe was given to the IAF as some gift or whatnot or that thoughout the exercize the IAF was at an advanatge the entire time.

Secondly I mean you or others say two things, you say first it wasn’t that high score (3 to 1) and then you say if it was, then the ROE's were not the same and frankly all that reeks of pure spin.

Oh and indeed I will admit that 3 to 1 isn’t bad as well if that’s the real score.

Ok your not American, and either way I don’t have the Israeli pilots here to say their views as some of the U.S. pilots have been outspoken here and as such I am in this conversation at a disadvantage.

To me the way and style of things that have been written, just reeks of pure spin, there is no other way I can define it.

I mean the language used and the rhetoric IMO was too defensive and too much full of bravado for the USN that I can only conclude what I did.

And yes indeed what you wrote “the pride of every fighter pilot, no one like to loose” and that is what I am seeing here ;)

Shalom :D

[cold0]

Hi IDFM203,


First is this ROE's that I just don’t believe was given to the IAF as some gift or whatnot or that thoughout the exercize the IAF was at an advanatge the entire time.

Secondly I mean you or others say two things, you say first it wasn’t that high score (3 to 1) and then you say if it was, then the ROE's were not the same and frankly all that reeks of pure spin.



No, exactly. I have said the the ROE, during an exercise, can give an edge for a side, but I haven't said that this give a IAF a clear advantage.
In fact, today, we don't know exactly the ROE used during this exercise.

For example we know that, probably, all the engagement are within the visual range, but we don't know if the IAF fighters have used their Dash Helmet/Pyton IV combo, something that is far superior to US Navy AIM-M

Another example, during the exercise COPE INDIA the USAF send his best F-15C (with the new AESA radar, and the new AIM-9X) but forbide his pilots to use the ARMRAAM and the helmet mounted display!!

Even during OEF the US Navy forbide her pilots to make BVR engagements with the french Rafales, only to no "spoil" the limits of her active radar guided missiles. And in WVR scenario, the Rafales cleary won.

What I have said is that, even if combat ratio was "only" 3 to 1 (and US Navy admitted it), is cleary a good result and another proof of marvelous abilities of IAF pilots.


To me the way and style of things that have been written, just reeks of pure spin, there is no other way I can define it.

I mean the language used and the rhetoric IMO was too defensive and too much full of bravado for the USN that I can only conclude what I did.


I haven't found the article of Tom Cooper and the phrases of US pilots so offensive against the IAF pilots; but it's just my 2 $.

Personaly,I think that every air force (even USAF/US Navy) see the IAF with awe and respect, and the results (published in a magazine, no official) of an exercise cannot change this opinion.

Regards,

[IDFM203]

Ok not much I can add that I have already said (and perhaps indeed we do view some of their comments a bit differently and read them again for it wasnt merley offensive aginst the IAF that had me conclude that it was spin) and I hear what you are saying as well.

I just want to repeat two points. The first is that in no way did I make these exercises the cornerstone of my case, it was just a part and only a part of the OVERALL case that I made.

Also I want to repeat that in no way do I not think that the USN and USAF pilots are not amongst the best in the world for indeed they are and I have full respect for their skills and the U.S. military in general.

Anyways Shalom to you :D

[cold0]

Ok not much I can add that I have already said (and perhaps indeed we do view some of their comments a bit differently and read them again for it wasnt merley offensive aginst the IAF that had me conclude that it was spin) and I hear what you are saying as well.

I just want to repeat two points. The first is that in no way did I make these exercises the cornerstone of my case, it was just a part and only a part of the OVERALL case that I made.

Also I want to repeat that in no way do I not think that the USN and USAF pilots are not amongst the best in the world for indeed they are and I have full respect for their skills and the U.S. military in general.

Anyways Shalom to you

Please to have exchange my opinions with you :D !

Regards,

[IDFM203]

ditto to you as well!! :D

Shalom :D

[Fox2]

Ehehe, seems like there is a conversation similar to this every so often, eh, IDFM203? ;)

[IDFM203]

Fox2,

hehe :D yes and gee its always with DLodge as well ;)

He is proud of his air force, I am proud of mine (and I believe I made strong case OVERALL to back up what I said ;) )and well the end result is this repeated debate on exactly the same thing every now and then between both of us.

Hey at least there is no flame wars and we are respectful towards each other as indeed regardless of my arguments, I DO have full respect for the USAF and USN, just I think that the IAF etc. etc.. ;) :D

Shalom :D

[Fox2]

I was more referring to our little discussion about it some time ago! :D

[IDFM203]

I was more referring to our little discussion about it some time ago! :Doops sorry about the wrong reference :oops: well yes indeed, but in that thread he was very prevalent as well ;) , correct?

Shalom :D

[Fox2]

but in that thread he was very prevalent as well ;) , correct?

I think so. But it's always you vs. an American on the same old "incident"! ;)

[IDFM203]

but in that thread he was very prevalent as well ;) , correct?

I think so. But it's always you vs. an American on the same old "incident"! ;) again an American is usualy that one person ;)

hey man it takes two to tango here, so dont lay it all on me ;)

Shalom :D

[Fox2]

hey man it takes two to tango here, so dont lay it all on me

That was not my intention. :P

I just noticed, always this one training exercises comes up, between the USN and IAF pilots. It happens every few months, I think, in some quasi-related aviation topic.

[DLodge]

Boy I thought we laid this to rest :roll:
As did I. Sorry for stirring it up again but I juse couldn't resist :D


I said before if you read it, that I do NOT consider ACIG.org to be the all knowing truth (for they shortchange IAF kills where other sources have it a bit higher then the number they have) and frankly after reading the articles from Tom and some of those pilots, and the language and rhetoric that they used (which went far above just talking about these air to air exercises) its quite clear that USN and its countryman are out in full spin mode.
I agree with your assessment of www.acig.org. Having read more of the site, and having asked others' opinions, I now see it as being rife with questionable facts and Tom Cooper as being both arrogant and ignorant.

I do agree with some of his points, however, which is why I haven't deleted my quotes from him.

Also...

after reading the articles from Tom and some of those pilots, and the language and rhetoric that they used (which went far above just talking about these air to air exercises) its quite clear that USN and its countryman are out in full spin mode.
Judging by his language and rhetoric I think Tom is unjustifiably predjudiced against the USN...

Let me make one thing clear: I do not intend to "defend" the USN pilots. I had too many negative experiences with them (as opposed by so many pilots from so many other air forces), and consider (at least most of them) them ignorants par excellence.
That doesn't sound like anyone with a high opinion of the United States Navy.

Anyway, just wanted to straighten some things out. As I said before, I think the argument is dead. You'll believe what you want and I'll believe what I want and, well, that's all there is too it.

Shalom :D

[cold0]

I agree with your assessment of www.acig.org. Having read more of the site, and having asked others' opinions, I now see it as being rife with questionable facts and Tom Cooper as being both arrogant and ignorant.

I do agree with some of his points, however, which is why I haven't deleted my quotes from him.

Just remember that acig.org is an open; the famous list of air-to-air Kills, for example, are changed with the info send by the readers (cleary if they are reasonable and no absurd "cliams").
The same thing happens for the articles.

See, for example, the article about the air battle on 10 may 1972, the NVPA claims against B52 or the "voices" about the Tornado shoot down by a MIG-23 during IIPGW.

So, in my opinions, acig is more "open minded" that many other military site, and IDFM203 can "bring justice" to IAF in the Kills list (I have just finished Osprey Mirage/Nesher volume and I'm really impressed :D )

For Tom Cooper, yes, he is "blunt" sometime; but I don't know many "famous" aviation journalists that are ready to talk and discuss
about his work.

Regards,

Regards,

[DLodge]

The ACIG forum is pretty good; there are lots of idiots and a few smart folks so the challenge is to pay attention only to the ones who know what they're talking about. Despite some highly questionable info, the database is valuable as well, if only because there's nothing else like it on the web. Some of the ACIG articles aren't bad either.

Regarding Tom: let's say that some people within the fighter pilot community think he's full of BS. I don't want to get into details but apparently he made some fantastic claims and didn't take kindly to their corrections. I have found Steve Davies over on www.f-15e.net to be both a better, more accurate writer and just as willing to answer questions online (and without Tom's acerbic sarcasm).

Anyway, that's just my opinion based on what I've observed and been told.

[cold0]

The ACIG forum is pretty good; there are lots of idiots and a few smart folks so the challenge is to pay attention only to the ones who know what they're talking about. Despite some highly questionable info, the database is valuable as well, if only because there's nothing else like it on the web. Some of the ACIG articles aren't bad either.

But this is true for every forum on intrnet, right? :D


Regarding Tom: let's say that some people within the fighter pilot community think he's full of BS. I don't want to get into details but apparently he made some fantastic claims and didn't take kindly to their corrections. I have found Steve Davies over on www.f-15e.net to be both a better, more accurate writer and just as willing to answer questions online (and without Tom's acerbic sarcasm).

Yes, Steve Davies is a very good aviaton journalist.

Regards,

[IDFM203]

Boy I thought we laid this to rest :roll:
As did I. Sorry for stirring it up again but I juse couldn't resist :Dhehe :lol: hey me and you repeat this exact debate every few months so don’t let me hold you back from not letting this die yet again ;)

As for Tom well I guess we both have a problems with him.

As for what he said in the beginning well perhaps but he is American and well I can defiantly see his nationalism there and to me the first paragraph is the obvious “caveat” to say before getting all nationalistic and going off on the IAF.

Again, either way, IMO Toms language and rhetoric for the USN against the IAF IMO was way over the top and it reeked of pure spin.

Btw I extend that to some of your pilot quotes as well.

All I can say for them is like what cold0 said to me before “and remember the pride of every fighter pilot, no one like to loose!!! And well that is what I saw here ;)

Lastly remember again that my case wasn’t solely on this exercise but rather on a few other factors as well that when all combined IMO made my case stand strong.

Shalom :D

[cold0]

Ehi IDFM203,

Buy this:

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S6534~per=36

I have just finish to read it and you can really be proud of your Mirage/Nesher pilots! :D

Regards,

[IDFM203]

Ehi IDFM203,

Buy this:

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S6534~per=36

I have just finish to read it and you can really be proud of your Mirage/Nesher pilots! :D

Regards, Thanks for the recommendation my friend, yeah I will try to get it soon.

Since you recommended me a book and also since you obviously have some interest in the IAF, well let me recommend to you a very good English video on it that was produced about ten years ago.

"CLEAR SKIES" - STORY OF THE ISRAELI AIR FORCE" (http://www.israelmilitary.com/imp/show_product.php?product_id=36293)
http://www.israelmilitary.com/imp/images/bigimg36293.jpg

Shalom :D

[Midav]

My personal opinion is that Israeli pilots are the best.

They train the hardest and the longest of any Air Force out there.

Also, what has given them an even bigger edge since the middle of the last decade, is the "DASH" helm. Link that with the Python IV and you have a near unbeatable weapon in close combat fighting.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mig21/images/elbit4.jpg

From what I have read, Boeing and IAI got together and are building an even better helmet, dubbed "Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS)" for the USAF and USN, which will be linked with the AIM-9X.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/budget/fy2001/dot-e/images/01jhmcs.jpg

[cold0]

From what I have read, Boeing and IAI got together and are building an even better helmet, dubbed "Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS)" for the USAF and USN, which will be linked with the AIM-9X.

JHMCS is in service with USAF F-15C (but not with the -E version), and with US NAVY HORNET (E/F and as upgrade for older C/D but I don't know the details).
In these days a F-16 has lanuched the first AIM-9x so the integration of this weapon with USAF F-16 fleet is on the way.

Regards,