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View Full Version : Interresting article regarding the ongoing events in Iraq..



cazorp
04-11-2004, 07:04 PM
Found this, written over a year ago, and I find it scaringly precise to the ongoing events in Iraq:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0327/p13s01-woiq.html?related




Specials > War in the Gulf
from the March 27, 2003 edition

A 1982 Israeli war has modern echoes for US in Iraq
By Nicholas Blanford | Special to The Christian Science Monitor

BEIRUT, LEBANON – The parallels between the US-led invasion of Iraq and Israel's invasion of Lebanon 21 years ago are striking - and ominous.
Both involved modern armies invading initially through Shiite Muslim-dominated areas. Both armies also expected no opposition from local Shiites: US war planners hope for a warm reception from Iraqi Shiites grateful for an end of repression by Saddam Hussein's Sunni Muslim elite; Israel believed the Shiites of south Lebanon would be happy to see the back of Palestinian guerrillas whose presence had made life intolerable. Indeed, the Lebanese Shiites initially showered the invading Israeli troops with rose petals and rice. But the Israelis miscalculated about the Shiites, and the rice and rose petals soon turned into bombs and bullets.


Has the US made the same mistake about the Shiites of Iraq?

"Beware the Shiites!" wrote Israeli journalist and peace activist Uri Avnery recently, predicting that US problems in Iraq will begin once the fighting is over. He gave an example of two trips he paid to south Lebanon in 1982. During the first visit, four days after the Israeli invasion, he recounted being greeted with "great" joy by Shiite villagers. A few months later, Mr. Avnery returned to Lebanon and found Israeli troops "now wearing bulletproof vests and helmets, many on the verge of panic. "What had happened? The Shiites received the Israeli soldiers as liberators. When they realized that they had come to stay as occupiers, they started to kill them," he wrote.

The opposition to coalition forces in southern Iraq is being waged by units of Fedayeen Saddam, a paramilitary force deployed from areas further north. But there are reports of civilians joining the Fedayeen, enraged at the invasion of their homeland and the bombing of their cities.

In an easily missed report, CNN's Ryan Chilcote, embedded with the 101st Airborne Division, spoke of the reaction of local Shiites as the troops passed through their towns.

In the first town, Mr. Chilcote reported, the US soldiers were "quite literally applauded." But in the next town, the reaction was markedly different. It was "eerie," he said. The villagers stared unsmiling at the passing American troops. "It had all the ingredients of an ambush," Chilcote said, and had the US commanders "really worried."

To add to the potential difficulties facing the coalition forces, Shiite religious authorities in Iraq's southern city of Najaf on Tuesday called on the Iraqi people "to defend their country, honor, and religion by expelling the unbelievers from the land of Islam."

Mohammed Baqr al-Hakim, the head of the Iran-supported Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), the largest Shiite opposition group, warned on Tuesday that his followers are "ready to take up arms" should coalition troops become an occupation force. The Badr Brigades, SCIRI's 15,000-strong military wing deployed in Iran, with some units in northern Iraq, have so far stayed out of the fighting.

"The American troops will face a very strong resistance in just a couple of months. They will have to leave the cities and move into the desert," says Abu Ali, a veteran of Lebanon's Hizbullah organization who fought Israeli troops from 1982. "I know the Iraqi people," he said, having spent his childhood in Najaf in southern Iraq, "and I think the Americans will face the same resistance the Israelis faced in Lebanon, even harsher."


In my opinion, it's not possible to govern a middle-eastern country like Iraq with western-country ideals, every misstake made by coalition forces is summoned up to level were some strong religious leaders take command and lead the people against the ones who liberated their nation from dictatorship.. But there's one problem, correct me if I'm wrong - Islamic countries are not used to, or even suitable as democratic countries, a strong and desicive leadership without the possibility to question it is what they're used to...

Im afraid the coalition will be forced to leave Iraq this summer to its destiny without much accomplished in terms of developing a stable democracy..

Trident-za
04-11-2004, 07:20 PM
Very interesting... thanks.

Spearin
04-11-2004, 07:27 PM
Yea, I agree with you cazorp. I don't think it is just the Middle East though. Not everyone is suit for 'liberation' and occupation by a foreign military.

If Canada was suppressed by an 'evil' regime (Bloc Quebecois? :lol: ) and the USA 'liberated' us and was 'establishing democracy' I would be fighting them to keep their nose out of things.

Can't wait to hear American Patriot's words of wisdom on this matter...

Mr. Nielsen
04-11-2004, 07:37 PM
In Europe the transition, from monarchy to democracy, took quite a long time.

But the patience with foreign occupation troops seems quite short. Even though they compared with former the regime should be quite popular.

But perhaps being occupied by people from a different culture is bit by bit gnawing away at their pride? After all Saddam Hussein was one their own, however cruel he was.

Tane Angle
04-12-2004, 01:55 AM
Impressive posts. Some of their tactics aside, their intent may be easy to identify with. If a foreign power was occupying the US, even with only the best intentions, how long would Americans be welcoming. I can only hope that when I read this thread again it will have continued on such a calm, logical path, as understanding why one's enemy fights is the key to preventing further bloodshed. We don't have to agree with what they say, but it may be wise to understand why they say it. Have a good one, and just some thoughts...

American Patriot
04-12-2004, 01:57 AM
That's great but I think the current plan is going to succeed in our favor.

TALOS
04-12-2004, 02:23 AM
Yea, I agree with you cazorp. I don't think it is just the Middle East though. Not everyone is suit for 'liberation' and occupation by a foreign military.

If Canada was suppressed by an 'evil' regime (Bloc Quebecois? :lol: ) and the USA 'liberated' us and was 'establishing democracy' I would be fighting them to keep their nose out of things.

Can't wait to hear American Patriot's words of wisdom on this matter...
And I can assure you that myself and others would welcome them, one person certainly does not represent a whole nation. ;)

xjym2002
04-12-2004, 02:23 AM
Let me simplify the situation. Suppose there is a youth's family, the father is a scum who rape his daughter everyday and the mother splurge all the money the kids earned. Will the kids hope police to arrest their parents?
An american has no problem with that, but I guess a traditional chinese won't, because it's a home scandal and better treated by some home members.

xjym2002
04-12-2004, 02:27 AM
Yea, I agree with you cazorp. I don't think it is just the Middle East though. Not everyone is suit for 'liberation' and occupation by a foreign military.

If Canada was suppressed by an 'evil' regime (Bloc Quebecois? :lol: ) and the USA 'liberated' us and was 'establishing democracy' I would be fighting them to keep their nose out of things.

Can't wait to hear American Patriot's words of wisdom on this matter...
And I can assure you that myself and others would welcome them, one person certainly does not represent a whole nation. ;)

That's why Canada was NOT suppressed by an 'evil' regime.

TALOS
04-12-2004, 02:30 AM
Yea, I agree with you cazorp. I don't think it is just the Middle East though. Not everyone is suit for 'liberation' and occupation by a foreign military.

If Canada was suppressed by an 'evil' regime (Bloc Quebecois? :lol: ) and the USA 'liberated' us and was 'establishing democracy' I would be fighting them to keep their nose out of things.

Can't wait to hear American Patriot's words of wisdom on this matter...
And I can assure you that myself and others would welcome them, one person certainly does not represent a whole nation. ;)

That's why Canada was NOT suppressed by an 'evil' regime.

Haha ... yessiree bob ;)

Korth
04-12-2004, 02:45 AM
IMO, it is enough to have overthrown Saddam. Instead of trying to reconstruct Iraq, it would be better for the coalition forces to break up the country by letting the Kurds have their Kurdistan and then let the Shiites and Sunni muslims establish their own states.

Better to have smaller, weaker states that can be played off against each other than to have a future Islamic republic or Baathist dictator controlling all the natural resources (oil wealth) of a unified Iraq.

MetalBoy
04-12-2004, 02:52 AM
I don't think the Iraqi people would accept an Islamic based government. With the influx of Iranians to Iraq during their Shi'ite pilgrimages I'm sure they'll advise them that this is NOT the way they want to go. Problem is that since the Shi'ite have been so politically repressed by Saddam's regime, the only leaders they have are religious leaders, thus we see that even the most moderate Shi'ite leaders, like Al Sistani are still religious leaders.

soldierandy
04-12-2004, 04:56 AM
Partition sounds like an interesting idea. From what I see the Sunni’s don’t want Islamic government but hate US occupation just as much. The Shiites might have welcomed US liberation to begin with but such tolerance would be very short-lived. If this so-claimed ‘civil war’ would happen, would it be between Sunnis and Shiites?

Frankly the US and the west would little care what happens to Iraq after Saddam if it wasn’t for the danger of exporting terrorism. If Iraq turned into a new Afghanistan before 2001 why would anyone bother? They don’t bother much with all the countries in Africa do they?

On the other hand even if there was partition do you want another Islamic government in the world? they in turn might start exporting their terrorism even if the Sunni Iraq doesn't. Or will it be peaceful between the two states? From what I see there is no love lost there and fundamentalist Islam is all about establishment of Islamic rule everywhere.

Mr. Nielsen
04-12-2004, 07:00 AM
Partition sounds like an interesting idea. From what I see the Sunni’s don’t want Islamic government but hate US occupation just as much. The Shiites might have welcomed US liberation to begin with but such tolerance would be very short-lived. If this so-claimed ‘civil war’ would happen, would it be between Sunnis and Shiites?

Respect of international borders, the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by force, no matter what, has been the building blocs of the post ww2 world.

Partition might seem to be a way of solving the etnic problems in Iraq, provided they are not going to fight over the borders and oil resources. But it would open a can worms.

If a precedent of partition is set in Iraq, we will have people all over the world, that also wants to carve out their own states. For one: Turkey, Syria and Iran would go ballistic over the prospect of a kurdish state.

soldierandy
04-12-2004, 11:05 AM
Plus the other problem is that the coalition promised before the war soveiregnty of Iraq afterwards. Partition would go against the whole idea. Plus I doubt it would be peaceful between the two or three states created. The Kurds promised also that they will not seek an independent state. If they got their state would they be safe from the neighbouring countries?